f13.net

Here's a detail question that would be better asked on the official boards, if I thought for a moment that my post wouldn't immediately be buried on page 35 behind 800 posts about ninja looting, class balance, and customer service, all of which are labeled "Blue pls OMFG read!!"

My baby Rogue opted for a Crossbow to pull with.  Throwing knives are unsexy and bows and guns un-roguish.  I bought the Xbow and, not seeing any bolts for sale, bought 200 arrows.  I equipped the Xbow and put the arrows in the ammo slot. Dragged the XBow icon to my action bar, got in range of a mob, and....no go, won't fire. 

Are there Xbow bolts that are different than arrows?  (if so, why doesn't the XBow vendor sell them?)  Do I have to have a quiver to use the XBow? (if so, why did it let me put the arrows in the ammo slot if it wouldn't work?)

Did you use the Shoot Crossbow skill (check your skillbook) or the actual crossbow item? You need to use the former. I never used a crossbow when I played but I preferred the knives for pulling as a Rogue -- the wind up animation is a lot shorter than using a bow or gun so the mob you are trying to pull can't wander as far before being tagged.

The quiver gives you a speed bonus when shooting/firing but you don't need it if you are just pulling.

Ah, see, I knew the answer was "Stop being a dumbass." 

Thanks.

It's not that obvious. One of the most common newbie questions is "How do I fire my wand?" and yours is along the same line.

Yup that is a very normal error due most people do not see the icon in their list of abilities for ranged attack especially people for whom ranged shooting is not their primary method of attacking.


kaid

It begs the question of why the ranged weapon icon can be dragged to the action bar if clicking it has no effect. 

'Cause if it isn't on your doll already, clicking that button would equip it. :P

So are crossbows demonstrably better than throwing knives? Damage or speed-wise? I'm sure they aren't faster, but is it worth it to train them up or just stick to throwing?

Man, playing a non-caster for once is really sharpening my wits.

Later on you find bows/xbows/guns with +stats on them.  You won't find throwing knives like that.

That's because throwing knives are ammo, not weapons. So yes, weapons + ammo = better than just ammo.

Yeah, some things in the game are very non-intuitive. For example, fishing. Most of the time when you want to use an item, you put it in your toolbar and click it. Not so with your fishing rod. There is a casting action button to do this for you. So, often you see noobie fishermen equiping and unequiping their robs with great abandon wondering what the hell is going on.

Plus, they just look cooler and there's no animation bugs with them.  Though I haven't seen the "stuck in throwing animation" for a long time, so it might have been quashed finally. 

Throwing weapons are faster, but really as a rogue you're not concerned about the 3 throws you can get in before a mob hits you so much as you are the combo points you need.

Are there crossbow things that give you combo points?

Things?  If you mean "items," then no.  Theres a very short list of Xbows int he game, and none of them award combo points to my knowledge. 

But hey, lets go for 0/3.

I mean attacks, powers, abilities, etc.

If you mean skills, abilities, or moves then "no".  Combo point generation is all you and your melee weapons, buddy.

As a rogue, I don't think I got a single missile skill over 100. I rarely ever had to pull and it's rarely worth giving up 2-3 combo points.  And refreshingly enough, WoW's rogue is about the easiest and least frustrating positional melee character I've ever played.

I'm pulling a lot because I'm in the middle of Westfall, where every quest asks you to find 2 - 3 new flavors of Defias and wipe them out.  So far its just easier and safer to pull.

I find that trying to sneak up on mobs is useless.  I can take down mobs 1-2 levels higher than me pretty easily, but forget going for the backstab.  Even with Master of Deception at 3/5 (I'm 12th level atm), they see right through me. 

The biggest reason to grab a gun/bow or xbow is mainly due to ammunition. When traveling it can be a HUGE pita to find a merchant that sells throwing weapons while arrows and bullets are purchasable in almost every town and village.

The damage on xbows tends to be a good deal higher than throwing weapons as well. As you level you can find bows/guns/xbows that have good stats boosts on them for a slot that normally would not have any bonus stats which makes them very handy even if never used.


kaid

Cheap shot is joy.  You don't get that until level 26 though.   I don't think I really used openers that much until then.  Before that I likely just shot what I had once and then SS'd myself silly. Ambush is good (at 18), but you need a dagger and sometimes that just isn't feasible.  Garotte isn't bad, but it's positional.  I wouldn't bother with sneaking into position just for a backstab and that somewhat makes MOD slightly useless until you have CS.

At least when you get Cheap Shot, you'll have distract and Rank 2 of stealth.  Plus Cheap Shot is 2 CPs or most of the time it can be 3 with 5 in Initiative.  I think I had MOD when I got CS so that helped too.   You kinda put away the missile weapons once you start relying on your openers.

I was just going to post that.  You use ranged up until around lvl 30.  After that, I just use openers over and over.  I do like Garrote.  Using that with cleave and you're poisons means the foe is dieing constantly while you chew him up.  Then I keep hitting them in the kidneys to stop them from hitting me.  Thus they stand there dieing to my cuts, poisons, and stabs while stunned.  I can easily kill +3 with that at lvl 35 now.

Level fast?  Full bar of rest xp in 60 minutes easily.  The only reason I don't level my Rogue constantly is that I"m constantly out of rest xp.

My rogue's only 23, but I used the gouge-backstab combo a lot.  I didn't enjoy SS spamming them to death nearly as much even though it's more efficient.  Screw efficency, I want FUN.  The tricky part is waiting until you have enough energy to gouge, run behind and backstab.

I find I use openers about 50% of the time up to level 18. One of the fun openers to use is come up on a group of 2 or 3 humanoids. Stealth. Walk up to the front of the highest level one and Sap him. Bam, he's dazed, instant crowd control, take care of the other 1 or 2. I also use gouge a lot to stop singles, run behind them, and backstab.

In what situations am I NOT wanting to use daggers? I see lots of folks talk about changing weapons mid battle between swords, maces and daggers? Why would I spend the money to get swords?

SS apparently is more effecitve with slower weapons, because its damage is based on the damage range of he weapon, not its DPS. 

I myself prefer knives, but I'm going for a thief concept. 

Same.  I use daggers exclusively.  He's a rogue damn it.  Plus, the added damage per hit from poisons isn't a percentage of damage from your weapon so the faster the better.  It affects your DPS more.

I'm more about the specials than SS too, so daggers win again.  I pump up my talents that affect poisons and I have a fast and furious attack of greasy knives.  Oh how my foes' health bar drops...

Plus more attempts to poison with daggers is another win for them.  I'm pretty much guaranteed I get a lot of instant poison damage in plus either some dot damage (they stack up to 5 times) or some slowing poison (so they can't run away, depends on what you are fighting.)

I just stay away from powers that are based on a percentage of weapon damage.  Daggers are very effective that way.

Rogues are great because there's just so damn many ways to play them.  That's the real reason I haven't played mine more, I can't decide which route I really want to go.

Combat rogues are the ones using maces/ swords more often while Poison/ assassination rogues focus on daggers from my understanding of things.   I'm with the dagger crowd, myself, and have been leaning towards an assassination/ backstab build but have seen my friend the combat rogue tear some shit up.

Basically it has to do with your playstyle, and how you want to generate the majority of your damage. A dagger rogue does most of his damage with special attacks, such as Backstab and ambush, and hardly ever uses sinsiter strike. A sword rogue relies much more on damage from normal attacks, and sinister strike, and eviserate, and stuns to keep the person from hitting you while you do damage.

A Sword rogue plays more like a light tank hybrid. Heavy damage and a little better defence with a more in your face type of fighting, and lots of stuns. A dagger rogue plays more like your traditional rogue. Jumping out behind some one for a large amount of damage, then using stuns to get behind the person and backstab.

I personally play a Sword rogue, and I really like it.

The reason you don't want to use daggers in pve is because unless you gouge the mob you will never have its back to you.  Gouge + backstab = 105 energy, which might as well be 120 since you regen it in 20 energy chunks.  For 120 energy you can Sinister strike three times which will do alot more damage than one backstab if you have a decent sword.  If you are not 60 you shouldn't be using daggers, put most of your points into the combat tree and pick up the slowest sword/mace you can find.

Do people actually wait for rest xp to accumulate?  My gnome warlock (my 2-year old loves the gnomes, she thinks they're "babies") accumulates something like 12% rest xp sitting overnight in an inn; it's such a small amount and gets burned up so quickly that I don't even bother finding an inn or city to log out in unless it's convenient.

Ohh noes, someone mentioned WoW theorycraft and rogues.  I am compelled to post.. I think... 

People use swords for a variety of reasons:

1) Sinister strike is incredibly energy efficient and the damage done by this attack is based of your damage range.  Also your additional damage from your attack power is scaled based on the speed of your weapon.  Note: this applies to backstab and ambush also.

Sinister strike is also non positional, so it's easy to use solo which is how you'll spend a majority of your time leveling up.

Even if you have the BEST DAGGER EVAR, it will never be as slow and hard hitting as a nice slow sword.  There will always be times when you can only sinister strike (you know how hard it is to find the backside on a amorphous blob to backstab?).  Everyone, even if they've gone hardcore backstab/ambush sinister strikes a lot more than they expect to.  I've fought alliance rogues that liked to sinister strike spam with their daggers out, it's fucking pathetic. It's a tickle.  Where as someone sinister striking you in the face with a Krol blade is a one way ticket to ouch-town.

2) Combat spec rogues can also get a sword spec.  They can also get a mace spec.  I'm not sure how well either of these specs work as I've never used them.

3) Backstab rogues aren't really viable until they PVP or when they're grouping 95% of the time.  As Threash mentioned, you're dicking around gouge/backstabbing. It's not very effective (except in PVP, where it's quite nice). 

Note: Yes, some people like being effective. I don't roleplay with my fucking weapons, I stab with them.  Stabbing is not roleplaying.  You can be Bobby the effeminite swashbuckler with a mace, it's OK.

4) Weapon macros are easy and available.  It's easy to switch for any situation. 

5) Combat rogues aren't likely to backstab/ambush much.  Thus, you're going to need to fill in more SS's to get to your eviscerate or kidney shot or if you're a goofy ass bleed rogue: rupture.

6) Some mobs are immune to poison.  Fast poison spam aint always going to work. Some mobs also have no blood and thus do not bleed.

Of course, there's just a lot of ways you can play a rogue.  One of the most effective rogues in my guild on Shadowsong used low speed daggers with dual instant poisons. He had the improved instant poison skill.  He was quite often the most damaging rogue on all raids (ironically enough I was the only person that came close and I wasn't even a raid spec (21/8/22) and my gear blew and 99% of the time I got to play my shaman!)(additonal gripe:  plus he never cheapshotted and liked to ambush the critters to inflate his damage output (yes we were highly contentious)). He also like to brag that he'd get like a 120 killing blows in battlegrounds with something ridiculous like 2 deaths (of course, he didn't really stick his neck out there).  So, I guess I'm saying he wasn't as good as he liked to advertise, but he had a completely stupid (in my view) weapon setup (Julie's dagger mainhand, wtf) and spec (he had some ODD points here and there) but he still managed to excel where people in idealized setups strugged to compare.  Plus his entire setup was extremely low aggro even if a pure Seal-Fate build in the right gear might outdamage him, he still went toe to toe and took virtually zero damage.

Viable rogue specs, IMO, open up a lot if you're grouped constantly or you're pvping.  Otherwise, you're just looking to take down a mob before it takes you down.  This means you want instantly accessable and non-positional damage because I've yet to see a mob I can successfully circle strafe. Which means: yep, you're SSing a ton.  Buy a sword (or mace). 

This is only really an issue if you're someone that tries to maximize your damage as a damage class.  Otherwise, go nuts, it's your dime.

Its so that Blizzard can add bows with click effects if they choose.  I don't believe any do ATM, but almost all other weapon types have a few examples so its likely only a matter of time.

I'd also like to add that dual backstabbing rogues is a fun little party. You just waltz up to the mob, open with ambush, the other guy then opens with ambush, and then you stand on other ends of the mob spamming backstab. What you get is a mob constantly spinning around and taking huge damage everytime he does. It's even better in PVP, if both the ambushes crit someone just died.

Also, the biggest thing against backstab rogues is that you don't get many good backstab daggers along the way to 60. Sadly Toxic Revenger is the best (non world-drop) backstab dagger from level 27 to something stupidly high like level 50.

I dropped a +4 named last night and didn't even get an opening move on him (it certainly was close.)  That's with daggers mind you.  I'm not too worried about my damage output.  Although, I'll probably start collecting swords and maces just to stay flexible and try things out.  I just need to get some 14 slot bags or something.  I'm always out of room with stocking 3-4 different poisons, blinding powder, leathers, healing potions, and then all the insane number of quest items I seem to always have.

A side note: If I come up against a known hard opponent, I like to open with Sap.  This gives me a combo point and then allows me to regain energy.  I plan to use this in PvP sometime so that I can walk to the front of the person, wave, then go back behind for a nice backstab.  If I get that to work just once, I'll be happy. :-D

I do not work on any of my characters unless they have rest exp.  I'm leveling 3 at the moment and I typically have 1 hour of playtime per night during the week so that works for me.  Using this technique, I can level 3 characters just as fast as one character being used past rest experience all the time.

I guess that sort of makes sense if you have to have so many characters on such a short schedule, although you're leveling each one at around 2/3 of the rate of one non-rest character--200% xp for one hour, or 315%xp for (100% x 3 hours, plus ~15% rest accumulated)

I think I'm about as far from a min/maxer as you can possibly be without going total faggy roleplaya. I appreciate all the input, it just reminds me why I try to avoid such discussions, why I never look up loot I'm not currently questing for, and consequently have fun in WoW. I remember ooooing and aaaaahing at all the loot (and then planning raids to go get said loot) from EQ, and if I ever try to play that way again, FUCKING SHOOT ME DIRECTLY IN THE FACE.

I did get a decent sword drop in Deadmines last night, so I may try swords just to fuck around with them a bit. But as the group last night can attest, I didn't even know how to set up a macro in WoW. I was assisting the main tank in the group just on mouse clicks.

Gentlemen, please - think of the crossbows and the children.

(http://www.wilsonsalmanac.com/images/tell_william.jpg)

I understand what you are saying, but there is more to it than that.  When I work on quests with full rest experience I am gaining levels faster while working on level appropriate quests at the same time.  I've noticed that when you work on one character exclusively, you run out of quests to do that aren't red and you are forced to go to other areas and/or grind to get to the next level. (I got my paladin to lvl 60 this way, so I know about that first hand.)

I keep my interest level in the game highest when I switch around like this because my characters always have yellow/green quests available to them in any area I visit.  It never takes me long to get onto another quest.  Thus, I'm constantly adding to my exp gain with finishing quests quickly.

I also use the family concept by sending each of my characters the items they need for their respective professions.  This also saves me a lot of time and money in the long run rather than relying on other players or the AH to support me.  I do have to go to the AH sometimes but less often and never for easily gathered items, just the rare ones.  My characters always have the best  potions/armor/weapons/bags that are appropriate for their level.  This also helps speed up my leveling. (I just wish I could send enchantments.)

While all of this sounds complicated, it isn't and it never really feels like a grind this way.  It feels like I'm constantly contributing and progressing.

I've never run out of appropriate quests, but then again I'm only level 19, so I suppose it's easy for them to dry up later.  Haven't had to grind yet; the closest thing yet that feels grindy is killing all the crap that attacks me on the way to/from quests; which begs another question--does low-level gray shit EVER stop aggroing?  Pain in the butt, it is...

Same here, which is why I specificaly mentioned that I know gouge-bs is less 'efficient' but damnit, it's more fun.

And screw macros, it's just another button you have to worry about on your UI.  I just hit whichever F1-5 key the MA is and then use the default "F" to assist.  I only worry about macros in raids.

No they never stop aggroing, but the radius in which they agro gets smaller and smaller.  You practically have to run over them if you are 15+ level higher than them.  But, you have to always avoid them somewhat or just keep running while they tap you on the back.

There's a quest around level 50 for Mauradon which gives you a sword that you can use for the rest of your roguely life. 35 DPS, slow as hell and has a basic "flurry" proc.   Anyone that does Mauradon to the end will end up finishing this quest.  And everyone wants to do that instance, it's a loot gold mine. For end game daggers, you can get the Barman shanker through what I'd consider a rogue's "right of passage" by soloing Plugger in Black Rock Depths.  It uses a lot of a rogue's skill to pull it off and I always treated it as an "assassination" mission.  It's not easy but it's a good challenge and attemptable in 10-20 minute chunks of time.

There's a lot of rogue gear in the end levels that pretty easily accessible for anyone.  Really, you can forget the end game raid stuff, it really isn't worth it considering you can get a lot of cool stuff with just 4 friends and a couple hours.  You'll never need to shoot yourself in the face   8-) 

One thing...


Just see which part of the mob swings at you, and then run to the other side.

Happened a lot in EQ.

There are raids in WoW?   :-D

Glad to know I can be an effective rogue without sucking up to Uber_Guild_0043 or being /shudder pickup raids. I'd rather cheese-grater my butt cheeks in a salt water bath.

The Barman shanker is really a wonderfull weapon.  I finally upgraded it a few weeks ago, from the low 50s 36dps shanker to a purple 48 dps dagger.  The damage difference was minimal, i hardly feel like im doing any more damage, just because the shanker is 2.00 speed and my new dagger is 1.8.  In fact someone did the math and if i can get over 900 attack power (not hard with pali/warrior buffs) the shanker in fact does MORE damage than my uber epic dagger.  So yeah, you really dont have to raid unless you want to do 1600dmg on your ambush instead of 1575 or whatever.

You don't know how warm that makes me feel.  Thanks!

Get the Ragefury eyepatch (http://www.thottbot.com/?i=3664) out of BRD bar while you're there.  It doesn't matter how many times you have to do that event, just do it.  2% crit on it and it's an eyepatch graphic, which makes it worth turning on the helm graphics again. .  I was lucky enough to get it for my hunter because there were no rogues in the group (and it was a guild group) when I went through.

If i could wear an eyepath AND a pirate hat i'd never wear anything else.  And i don't mean just on that slot.

Have you guys run across that potion that makes you look like a pirate yet?  I got in on a group with my guild one night and they all looked like pirates.  They made fun of me and handed me a bottle that said "Drink me."  I drank it and viola, I was a pirate for an hour.  It was pretty funny.  The outfit is different depending on your sex and class.

I must make me some of this pirate potion.

Deviate Delight.  It can cause you to 'Flip Out' which turns you into a Ninja for an hour.

Another funny one is you get Feign Death for five minutes too.  Which, if you're not a hunter, actually convinces PvP opponents that you are dead.  However, if you keep it on for the full five minutes, YOU ACTUALLY DIE.

Forward the Roflcopter.

Sweet, I didn't know about the Ninja stuff. I must find me some.  Oh, and the FD thing happens with hunters, too.   It's so people don't use it as an "AFK/ Spawncamping" tool like Necros/ Monks did in EQ.

Yes, I know.  The 'Hunters' bit was just that No-one in PvP is going to actually believe that you died properly as a hunter unless they kick your body about a bit, just in case.

Actually thats not true Ironwood I have used FD in battle if you time it right when you are low health I can and have had people buy it. Usually though what I use it for is to sew confusion in a big melee if you are getting wacked FD. This detargets you and if anybody else hits the guy attacking you in that time they auto target on the new attacker.

I use this often in brawls to get people off me and then stand up a few seconds later and multishot the dumbass that didn't finish me off.

Admittedly it does not work super often but hey any time it does work was a time you would have died otherwise.

kaid

I have highlighted the part that means that your FD wouldn't work on me.

Not that I'd give much time for an FD.

You said nobody would believe it but sad as it is they do every single night at least a couple times when I PVP. Is FD super useful in pvp nope but it can and does work.

Anybody who knows what the hell they are doing will stake the heart  of a hunter just to make sure they are gone but as in all mmrpg the number of people who know what the hell they are doing is minimal.


The funniest thing I saw two nights ago had me crying I was laughing so hard. A warrior got the jump on me and I was hamstrung 9 ways to sunday so I hit fd figuring I had nothing to lose. The warror just stands there starts walking away turns around comes up to me again walks around me a bit walks a way turns around looks at me again then just waddles off. That was the most confused looking cow I have ever seen.


kaid

Actually as a rogue, you should pick up bows, xbows AND guns -- there are excellent items from all 3, typically with +agi, +sta, sometimes +hit% or +AP. You only use 'em for pulling anyway, esp. if you have improved sap (sap a mob, move next to a corner, hit a second mob and move around the corner where your group is waiting).
Plus if you have a gun/bow/xbow, you can put an accurascope on it for another +1% to hit.

re rogue builds: I agree, go full combat up to 60. Get improved sinister strike, imp evis, malice, then build up the combat tree to adrenaline rush, get Master of Deception 3 on the way (highest rank you'll need for solo pve). Maybe respec at 60 after you get your barman shanker (I'm an insanely lucky bugger, got my first shanker on the first solo run I did, then I vendored my entire inventory by accident and got another shanker in the NEXT run). I'm currently something silly like 17/11/23 with riposte, preparation, imp sap, imp ambush.. only use the shanker to ambush, since 600 ping + positioning for backstab = sad face. You WILL need prep for pvp.. you can get away with adrenaline rush if you don't mind getting feared / rooted / sheeped when you activate it.


-- Z.

Except I've run across situations where I can pull a single but getting in position to ambush will give me an add. Of course you can always sap to deal with that, though rarely that can bring more adds until you have improved sap.

The other thing I haven't seen mentioned about range weapons other than knives is range. Bows and guns tend to have a slightly longer range from my experience with them when I switched from knives on my rogue. Mainly though, it's all about the stats. I think my bow skill is in the low 100's at 60, so I didn't use it a lot, but it was handy when needed and the extra sta and agi doesnt hurt at all.

What's even funnier is you can pickpocket the blobs in WoW. Where they keep their pockets I have no idea.

Which blobs exactly?  I typically can't pickpocket anything that isn't humanoid.  Even some things that are somewhat humanoid too, like yeti's.

As far as I remember every blob I tried is pickpocketable. The ones in the hinterlands definately are and I think the ones in the wetlands were too. Never tried the ones in ashenvale though.

Damn it.  Why don't Yeti's have pockets then??!!  They have change on them when I kill them.

Oh well, if they did, my rogue would just camp out there for 3 levels since he has skinning too. Extra cash from pickpocketing, exp, kill cash, AND some leather/hides = gold mine.

I think it makes sense that blobs would be pick pocketable, afterall they are kinda big jello containers.  I can see a skilled rogue reaching in and pulling something out, not exactly from pockets but from the blob itself.

Also, slimes have crap loot tables... level 60 slimes drop the same loot as level 20 ones. You also can't skin them, unlike yeti and worgen.


-- Z.

Ah suddenly I'm having fond recollections of pickpocketing JWilsons... (http://uo.stratics.com/database/view.php?db_content=hunters&id=220)

(http://uo.stratics.com/hunters/movies/slime2.gif)

With one sole exception - the 50+ oozes in Un Goro have one of the best drop rates for high end tribal leather patterns.  Which are absolutely vital for my druid.

Har, I might have actually used it as a coaster.

I remember that review, it's the one that kept me from buying UO.  I can't say I'm upset at that, either.  His description of his first (and only ) 1/2day in-game was enough to make me wonder why the game had been made in the first place.