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Title: Alternatives to DKP Post by: Slayerik on May 24, 2005, 10:50:36 AM Anyone in a guild that uses DKP or a variation of it? My guild uses it and it seems pretty good, but there are some complaints. Im looking for something besides random 100 and plain jane DKP to help with loot distribution. Here is our DKP site if anyone is interested in helpin out...
http://dkp.m-n-m.net/viewnews.php Thanks, Slayerik 60 Priest, Leader of Morituri Nolumus Mori (Shadow Moon Horde) Title: Re: Alternatives to DKP Post by: Rasix on May 24, 2005, 12:40:19 PM Quote DKP Loot Rules DKP Raid Definition: 1. A raid posted on this board by an officer under Raids and Events. Normal raid times are 7pm-12am PST weekdays and anytime weekends. -. A target of opportunity raid announced by an officer over guild channel and posted in guild MOTD. -. Friendly raids organized by a member, or pick-up raids, are not DKP raids, and thus subject only to the raid leaders loot rules. -. Loot process for Joint raid will be determined at the time of the raid based on discussions with the other guild(s). Points will be earned for the raid, however. Earning Points - DKP points will be awarded for raids attended based on time. Each person showing up for a raid will have his main credited with 1 point for the first hour, and 1 point for every hour afterward. On particularly long raids(those that last longer than 5 hours) 2 points will be awarded to those who finish the raid when the raid leader / guild leader calls the raid finished. - A DKP point may be awarded at any time for special deeds by the Guild Leader / Raid Leader. This may be a reward for good deeds, long term loyalty, certain two-box requests, desired activity, etc. In general, however, this will be rare. - Probationary raids count as points, however probationary members are not eligible to loot. - Bots attending raids will be awarded 1 point per raid, total. Only those bots approved by the officers will be allowed to accumulate points. Bidding Process - Only mains, bots, or characters requested for a raid may bid. Bids are /tells to an officer assigned to auction the loot (assigned at raid). Once bids are received, the officer will tell the raid the current bid for the item. All present will have a chance to increase the bid on the item, up to the maximum current DKP they have earned, which is the amount posted on the guild's website roster. Characters requested for the raid may bid for either the requested character or for the main. - Officers will call current bids over the raid channel as soon as recieved, as quickly as possible. Tying bids will not be accepted once a current bid is announced unless it is your maximum DKP earned. - Minimum bid is 2 points on all loot, even if only one person can use the item. Officers reserve the right to increase the minimum bid should the situation warrant. Bids will be rejected where misuse is apparent. - A 30 Second warning will be given before bid is official and over. We will try to make total time from bid to award 90 seconds. - If a tie remains after the bidding ends, the drop will be lotto'd to the high bidders. The winner will be charged the DKP amount bid plus 1 point. This may make his total negative if the bid was his maximum DKP total. - You may only bid on one item per bidding situation. You may also be asked to loot only one piece of uber loot per raid. Situations may arise where multiple pieces are acceptable, such as class specific items. - We take overbidding very seriously. Officers attempt to check for overbids during the bidding process, but it is ultimately a member's responsibility to know his DKP and to check it for correctness before each raid. Abuse of this system can lead to discipline at the officers' discretion. Also any overbidding by a person will result in a penalty of 5 dkp for that person. This is a strict penalty for a reason,when someone overbids, they will know that they basicly wont get credit for the next raid. Spell Loot -Spells and high end schematics will be refferred to as spells in this section, since both are scribed in a similiar fassion. - Highly sought and rare spells will be bid as normal. - Highest priority will be given to a character who can scribe the spell immediately; officer judgement will apply. - A spell may be awarded to a character within 2 levels of scribing if the player has better participation than more appropriately leveled characters, or if the higher-level characters have recently won something. - If no casters present at the event are within 2 levels of scribing the spell, it will be banked and awarded to the first caster who needs it and obtains the required level. - A spell will not be awarded to a character more than 2 levels lower than that required for a spell except in the most extreme situations. -Spells are also not subject to a one loot per target restriction. Special Case Loot - Generic quest items may be lotto'd if not of a sufficient value to auction. * The raid leader / guild leader reserves the right to OAL special items for a specific need within the guild. We are here to succeed as a team. In order to further the team, sometimes it is necessary to assign an item to make the guild stronger. When possible, this will be called ahead of time. Hand-me-downs and the Guild Bank - The guild bank will hold all green/spell drops that arent bid on or wanted by those currently raiding - The contents of the guild bank in refferrence to green items will be offered to members at meetings, the items not wanted will then be dissenchanted. -Spell and recipes in the bank may only be given to those who can scribe it at that time. Spells will be bid on normally in the raid and will DKP Notes * Have fun bidding! Encourage others to do the same. * Raid Points will be posted here. You are responsible to check for accuracy and notify an officer within 1 week if a mistake has been made. * Deguilding, by the player or by an officer, will result in the player's DKP being set to 0. * The selling of droppable items within 90 days of the raid earned is prohibited without officer permission. * An officer interested in bidding on an item will not be asked to auction that item. * Wherever possible, if an item is to be looted to be destroyed (i.e. enchanter loot), it will be done so by a class that cannot use * These rules may be modified at any time in the future to improve the system. Cash Loot - Cash loot will go to the guild bank to fund events and character upgrades , repairs for the wariors who attend the raids, and ankhs for shaman. Guests - When guests (non-Broken) are on a raid with us, in almost all cases they will not be eligible to roll on loot and will be informed of this at the beginning of the raid. Exceptions to this rule might include when a specific person has been asked to attend and is deemed critical to the success of the raid or when a large proportion of the raid force is non-Broken. Guests will naturally be considered when an item is going to go to the enchanters. If eligible guests are in attendance, loot will be handled as follows: - When an item drops and everyone asks to be considered for it, eligible guests will have a fair proportional chance at the item. This gives eligible guests a fair shot at loot while still considering that it is a Broken event. I don't know if that sounds too complicated, but it really isn't. -You get 1 DKP point per hour of the raid you attend. -Most set items start at 2 points. Interested parties bid from there. -Members bid first, then applicants and guests. Alts bid as applicants (initiates). This part does piss me off as my rogue is STILL considered my alt. Only thing that may be a little problematic is that under-represented classes get stuff for dirt cheap (my shaman has spent only 2 points more than my rogue (6 items v. 1 for rogue)). Shaman and druids often get stuff for a lot less than normal folk do. Hunter gear can go for over 70 at times where druids get their stuff for bare minimum (rarely 2 per raid). Title: Re: Alternatives to DKP Post by: SurfD on May 24, 2005, 02:51:15 PM Our guild uses a Semi DKP in equals DKP out system based mostly on loot drops. (why award dkp for killing a particular boss, when no one cares about the bosses, but rather the loot that they drop) (of course, this has the negative effect that we always have WAYY too many people turn out for Onyxia because she is a fast encounter with a high number of valuable loot drops)
For example, if a boss always drops 3 pieces of loot worth a total of 200 dkp, then the raid gets 200/40 = 5 dkp per attendee. DKP is accumulated, and used to roll on a tiered scale of incriments of 50 (roll your dkp, rounded up to the nearest 50, max of 300). If you have 105 stored dkp, then when you roll on that piece of gear, you roll out of 150, if you have 200, you roll 200) Inflation is sort of covered by the fact that we currently do not grant DKP for epics dropped by the MC trash mobs. If a molten giant drops a belt of Wrath, dkp is lost, but none is gained when it is rewarded. Title: Re: Alternatives to DKP Post by: ajax34i on May 24, 2005, 07:37:50 PM If I remember correctly, our old EQ guild used a DKP system which awarded points per hour, to encourage people to stay longer, but the bidding was done without bidding. If you wanted an item, you indicated you were in, and your full DKP total was used as your bidding number.
The loot items were priced so that getting one would put the average raid participant at 0 DKpoints left in the bank. Obviously, catasses would accumulate more points than the average weekend raider, and would thus win more (as they'd have the highest totals) or even be able to bid on two items (go from 400 to 200 on the first bid and then still be the highest bidder with 200 in the bank for the second item) but that was ok because they were supposedly participating more. You could go negative (item costs 200, I only have 50, but because everyone bid already I'm the highest even with just 50, so I'm in, and I'm getting the item, taking my bank down to -150). But then you were excluded from bids until you accumulated a positive balance, to prevent the whole guild from just going negative infinity. And also to give invitees and tag-alongs a chance at loot (they'd have 0 balance, higher than your -150). Obviously they'd have to /random, since their totals were tied at 0. The advantage was that there was very little rolling, you just decided if you wanted to blow your points or keep them. Before going into the raid, anyone could see the totals of everyone, and thus figure out their chance at an item, thus there'd be little bickering. Officers would do the calculations and keep the totals. Title: Re: Alternatives to DKP Post by: Trippy on May 24, 2005, 08:23:57 PM Anyone in a guild that uses DKP or a variation of it? My guild uses it and it seems pretty good, but there are some complaints. Im looking for something besides random 100 and plain jane DKP to help with loot distribution. Here is our DKP site if anyone is interested in helpin out... What are the complaints?Title: Re: Alternatives to DKP Post by: Paelos on May 24, 2005, 09:00:14 PM I've always thought DPK should add on points to your rolls. That's all.
Title: Re: Alternatives to DKP Post by: chinslim on May 24, 2005, 09:22:53 PM Quote What are the complaints? Probably that the casual gamers who only go every once in a blue moon are not allowed the chance to complete their purple set in 1 raid. Title: Re: Alternatives to DKP Post by: Sogrinaugh on May 26, 2005, 07:44:47 AM Quote What are the complaints? Probably that the casual gamers who only go every once in a blue moon are not allowed the chance to complete their purple set in 1 raid. Might also have something to do with the fact that no one pays a monthly fee to be a fucking secretary/accountant. Who the fuck wants to bother with keeping track of running tallies, who's keeping track of the guy who's keeping track (i sure as hell wouldn't trust such a system sans checks n balances). My guild loot policy goes thus: When an epic drops, if it specifally says YOUR CLASS on the item, you may roll if you do not already have an epic for that item slot. Once you have an epic for a given slot, you can't roll on another untill everyone else (in your class) has an epic for that slot. Once you have a class-specific epic of a given set, you may not roll on epics from the other class-specific set for your class. For items that do not specifally say a given class (example: Brutality Blade), we take a poll of who wants and will use it as thier end-game, main-hand weapon. In our case, no warrior, hunter, or rogue wanted it for thier main-hand end-game weapon. So we polled who would want it for off-hand, most of the rogues rolled. The guy that won it can no longer roll on epic weapon off-hands. If an epic drops, and no one wants it for thier "end-game" epic piece (this happend when Arcanists Robe dropped and also with amberseal keeper) a "free" roll is permitted, meaning anyone who would use the item is permitted to roll, with the difference being in this case that it doesn't count against the item slot, meaning the person who won the robe or the staff would still be allowed to roll on another (better) epic, for those slots. This system works pretty well for us. Title: Re: Alternatives to DKP Post by: Paelos on May 26, 2005, 08:10:34 AM I've always hated DKP because a straight system doesn't encourage attendance. Rather, it discourages people from coming along by smashing all chance of them getting a single thing out of the raid. That is why I advocate the roll enhancement system. You still roll on items, but high attendance and/or guild member roll with a higher cap.
Title: Re: Alternatives to DKP Post by: schild on May 26, 2005, 08:25:34 AM After reading about this nonsense, I can only say this:
If you're playing with such a non-friendly guild (or raid group) that you all can't just distribute items without bickering, you're taking the game too seriously. If you're playing with a group of people that needs some sort of mechanical device to decide who gets what and why, you should just stay away from the game. This is all far too serious and far too lame. It's the kind of thing I see and think that the game has become too much like a job. I'd rank taking a game this seriously just under Larping and writing fanfiction with furries dressed as Captain Kirk. This has nothing to do with World of Warcraft, but rather any game in which people use this system. Edit: (and let me just say, I'm an admitted loot whore, but I can't think of a time I took something that I couldn't SOMEHOW use to further whatever toon I was playing.) Title: Re: Alternatives to DKP Post by: Paelos on May 26, 2005, 08:41:29 AM Put 40 people in a room and make a decision Schild. Any decision. It's not freaking easy with no guidelines. Your comments don't work on any level, gaming or otherwise. People need some system in place when you add that many variables into anything.
Title: Re: Alternatives to DKP Post by: schild on May 26, 2005, 08:47:51 AM Put 40 people in a room and make a decision Schild. Any decision. It's not freaking easy with no guidelines. Your comments don't work on any level, gaming or otherwise. People need some system in place when you add that many variables into anything. If I were designing a raid endgame style thing that took hours and the combined effort of 40 people, you can be damn sure that every single person would get an item they could use, possibly a choice of an item from 3 different sets so they could really get what they want. You reward this sort of effort, not make it a fucking pain in the ass. I don't want to go on 100 raids to get the set of 8 items I want. Hell, I don't want to go on more than 8 raids to get the set of items I want. It's just bad design. I mean, it makes sense on the surface, but if more of this shit binds on pickup, who gives a fuck. Give the players what they deserve. Including that Leroy fellow over there. Title: Re: Alternatives to DKP Post by: El Gallo on May 26, 2005, 08:48:18 AM Well, you don't use DKP to keep people from taking things they won't use (the shit is for the most part bind on pickup anyway), just to figure out to whom it goes of the many people who want it and will use it. If you farm things a lot, it really just determines the order in which you get things.
Just getting along and having everything go where it goes works well if you are a very tight group of players who play the game similarly (Fires of Heaven, for example, does not use DKP). It's a bit different when you have a guild of 100 people, some of whom play all the time, some of whom play once a week. 40 of them are on a raid and uber item x drops. Does it go to A, who is always on but for whom it would be a small but noticeable upgrade? B, who went through wipe after wipe learning the zone but hasn't been on in a while, for whom it would be a moderate upgrade? C, who shows up about once a month but is funny and popular, for whom it would be a big upgrade? To D, the promising new member who has only been around a couple weeks but for whom it would be a huge upgrade? To E, the moderate playing, moderate contributing guy who hasn't gotten shit in a month? To F, the shaman who wants this item and thinks it suits his build even though the non-shaman players and some of the other shamans think it sucks for his class? To F, G, or H.... At that point, people say "fuck it" and go with dkp. Having someone spend 2 minutes updating your guild's dkp site after a raid is faster and fairer than all that shit. Title: Re: Alternatives to DKP Post by: Rasix on May 26, 2005, 09:19:58 AM Some thoughts:
1. Yes, some people actually enjoy playing accountant in these games. Just like some people enjoy spending hours of their own personal time insuring that OTHERS are having fun and are happy. Most DKP systems take very little time to update. And if you've got an easy way to calculate the points, it's barely an issue at all. Most hassles come from members not understanding the system or if you put in special out of raid incentives (ie, get this quest done, it helps the guild, we'll give you points). 2. Like Mr. Rooster said, if you don't use DKP, you'll get differing viewpoints on need/use/priority. Some people don't know shit about this game. Some rogues want sub 2 speed mainhand swords so they can do jack shit damage with their specials. Some hunters want to roll on end game rogue mainhanders or warrior two handers because we all know they're going to be meleeing a whole ton in the end game. Some rogues want ENDGAMEGUN-ALPHA for the stats. Not often enough a guild leader knows enough about the game or feels comfortable enough drawing lines about who can get what. DKP solves this. Hunter wants some spiffy sword that's basically decoration? Guess what, be ready to kiss the last 20 raids worth of points goodbye. Now shouldn't the guild leader be able to restrict that sword to rogue/warrior only? Yes, but you're going to build resentment. You're going have people claiming you're playing favorites. Best to cut the bullshit, cut the ambiguity and rely on the DKP system. Some cut and dry judgement calls still need to be made though. The second a warlock wins a perdition blade, someone's going to fucking quit the guild. You have to cut this sort of thing off before it happens. You're going to have some prereqs, but it's a lot less misinterpretable than a large decision tree. We've had some injustices through this system, but the people involved have paid out their asses for it. Two hunters with complete Dal Rend sets tends to piss off the rogue population, but they'll (the rogues) deal if the hunter spent his last 2 months worth of raids on it. 3. Yes, how loot in these games is distrubted is just plain ridiculous and unfair. 40 people to accomplish an objective and under the most ideal circumstances less than half will get something in something that takes more than 3 days for the top end guilds to accomplish. People are going to put in 12 hours plus and can and will walk away with nothing. Outrage at this does not change reality. You have to have a system that lets the people that are putting in the time, that are contributing the most to the guild, get their rewards. Piggy-backing on success will get you less than if you've fought for the guild to get to the point where they're at. People experiencing the wipes, the setbacks, the frustration will reap more rewards once that area becomes a trivial phat loot faucet. Some guilds have systems that work for them well. DKP has worked remarkably well for us. I like it a lot better than the crap that happened in my EQ guild. "Hey Rasix, you've been with us since the start, but this monk is 2 levels higher and just joined last week. So, sorry but he's going to get the weapon. " "Shit, you rolled low again, guess new monk #2 is going to get some increased ebay value." Title: Re: Alternatives to DKP Post by: Jayce on May 26, 2005, 09:40:29 AM Might also have something to do with the fact that no one pays a monthly fee to be a fucking secretary/accountant. The flaw in you guys' thinking is that you seem to think that everyone plays the game like you. In addition to the good points made above, some people DO play to be a secretary or accountant. Just because you don't enjoy that playstyle doesn't mean that no one does. If you don't enjoy the kinds of games where you have to make 100 epic runs to complete your set, let me try to think of a solution for you. .... ... .. still thinking... .... .. ... It's coming to me.... .... .... ... ... I got it! Play something else! Title: Re: Alternatives to DKP Post by: HaemishM on May 26, 2005, 09:44:35 AM If you're playing with a group of people that needs some sort of mechanical device to decide who gets what and why, you should just stay away from the game. It's called a guild. One of the main reasons I finally gave up being a guild leader was that the single largest amount of time I ever spent on the game was in either adjudicating loot disputes or trying to craft a "who gets what loot" policy without turning the entire guild into a screaming shit fit of selfish bitching. I'm serious. I started out with a pretty simple loot policy, which was esentially "need before greed and no farming shit for sales" stuff. Then people brought up alts. Then epic drops. Then it became who went to how many raids. And it just spiraled upwards into absolute lewt whorishness from there. And this was from people who were otherwise friends and rational people. But wave da uber loot in front of their noses and it became a contest to see who could be the biggest raging douchebag. And this was a CASUAL guild, that supposedly enjoyed role-playing and wanted a guild with a "family" atmosphere. And people wonder why I bitch about the idiocy of end-game raiding. Title: Re: Alternatives to DKP Post by: schild on May 26, 2005, 09:47:39 AM \The flaw in you guys' thinking is that you seem to think that everyone plays the game like you. In addition to the good points made above, some people DO play to be a secretary or accountant. Just because you don't enjoy that playstyle doesn't mean that no one does. If you don't enjoy the kinds of games where you have to make 100 epic runs to complete your set, let me try to think of a solution for you. .... ... .. still thinking... .... .. ... It's coming to me.... .... .... ... ... I got it! Play something else! I never mentioned an accountant. I am playing something else. This applies to all MMORPGs. It's a shitty system and has nothing to do with how *I* play. Don't be a dickhead. Title: Re: Alternatives to DKP Post by: Jayce on May 26, 2005, 09:55:59 AM I never mentioned an accountant. I was replying to both you and Sougrinaughabcefg. Quote This applies to all MMORPGs. It's a shitty system and has nothing to do with how *I* play. I disagree. I like the system. Both the DKP and the endgame raid typical MMOG grind blah blah. Quote Don't be a dickhead. I'll try. Title: Re: Alternatives to DKP Post by: Paelos on May 26, 2005, 10:10:00 AM I don't like endgame raids for two pieces of loot either, but as long as they exist people have to make distribution systems. And they will always exist because devs know that keeps subscription rates coming in. So, were you to design a MMO, Schild, where everyone was rewarded for a raid, you would be smacked down by the money men.
Title: Re: Alternatives to DKP Post by: schild on May 26, 2005, 11:26:36 AM So, were you to design a MMO, Schild, where everyone was rewarded for a raid, you would be smacked down by the money men. If I were to design an MMOG with raids as an endgame, I'd smack myself down before it even got to the moneymen. Raids should be part of the game throughout all levels, not just the endgame. It's simply a copout to use it as the ultimate culmination of gameplay after tens to hundreds of hours of gameplay. Title: Re: Alternatives to DKP Post by: ajax34i on May 26, 2005, 11:27:45 AM I think that DKP systems are usually put in place by the officers of a guild, because they're sick and tired of manually dealing with the loot distribution bullshit, and the rules and regulations of it will make their job easier.
You don't like "playing accountant," but realize that as a guild leader, you'd be "playing diplomat" and writing pages upon pages of prose in /tell conversations with 5-10 people at the same time as you try to placate them and explain why decisions about loot were fair and how they're still valued members of the guild and your friends. Frankly, it's less work to play accountant, spend an hour keeping up a spreadsheet at the end of the day, and just look it up during the raid, than to play diplomat, with all that typing to placate people. Title: Re: Alternatives to DKP Post by: Paelos on May 26, 2005, 11:40:09 AM This is why class rolling just makes sense to me. Fuck the elitism.
Title: Re: Alternatives to DKP Post by: chinslim on May 26, 2005, 03:48:38 PM Quote Does it go to A, who is always on but for whom it would be a small but noticeable upgrade? B, who went through wipe after wipe learning the zone but hasn't been on in a while, for whom it would be a moderate upgrade? C, who shows up about once a month but is funny and popular, for whom it would be a big upgrade? To D, the promising new member who has only been around a couple weeks but for whom it would be a huge upgrade? To E, the moderate playing, moderate contributing guy who hasn't gotten shit in a month? To F, the shaman who wants this item and thinks it suits his build even though the non-shaman players and some of the other shamans think it sucks for his class? To F, G, or H.... You forgot 'I'...the guy who 5 manned DM with some other guild member last week and was invited and summoned in the last minute as a replacement on the 3rd boss attempt. Wouldn't the regular raiders be pissed off if the new guy won some rare item for his 10 minutes of effort? Even our DKP system has rules for handling new raiders. Like any other social hobby(poker, bowling, softball), there's going to be someone who puts in the effort of organization and accounting for the rest of the group. It's no different in WoW or any other MMO. And DKP is supposed to encourage regular raid attendance and screw the casual gamer. Having to re-explain tactics and re-train a new set of people every week sucks. Come to think of it, belonging to a regularly-scheduled raid group rocks, as I've been able to actually cut down my hours because I don't need to look around for something to do when I log in. The "casual gamers" who're trying to advance via the pvp rewards system are getting their time sucked into constant SS/TM zerging. Title: Re: Alternatives to DKP Post by: Trippy on May 26, 2005, 04:43:51 PM And this was from people who were otherwise friends and rational people. But wave da uber loot in front of their noses and it became a contest to see who could be the biggest raging douchebag. Indeed. I knew my EQ-catassing was getting bad when loot decisions were affecting me physically (one time I literally started shaking in anger when I was passed up for a drop I thought I deserved) and mentally even when I wasn't playing the game. It made quitting cold-turkey that much easier knowing I didn't have to put up with that stuff anymore.And this was a CASUAL guild, that supposedly enjoyed role-playing and wanted a guild with a "family" atmosphere. Title: Re: Alternatives to DKP Post by: chinslim on May 26, 2005, 07:07:12 PM Who's looking for a "family" atmosphere anyways? You're telling me your family never has constant bickering? You're telling me nobody in your family embarrasses the shit out of you?
But no matter what, family is family, and you learn to put up with the fights and arguments and move forward. If you can't put up with it in a video game, good luck doing it in a real family. "Casual gamers" are just skilled at making excuses. Title: Re: Alternatives to DKP Post by: SurfD on May 27, 2005, 12:51:58 AM So, were you to design a MMO, Schild, where everyone was rewarded for a raid, you would be smacked down by the money men. If I were to design an MMOG with raids as an endgame, I'd smack myself down before it even got to the moneymen. Raids should be part of the game throughout all levels, not just the endgame. It's simply a copout to use it as the ultimate culmination of gameplay after tens to hundreds of hours of gameplay. There seems to be a problem with mixing "raids throughout all levels" and "raids for loot" paradigms. I mean, who would actually WANT to participate in a raid 1/3 of the way through the level curve, if every reward you could possibly get for it will be outdated in your next month of gameplay. There is a good reason why you almost never see appropriate level Druids with a full set of the Vambrace of the Viper in WoW. Its cause no druid in their right mind would actually want to grind Wailing Caverns the 15 or so times needed to get the full 5 piece set, not to mention that by time they DID get the full 5 piece set, they would have already started getting quest items or regular old green drops with better stats. Raids are there to give people shit to do when you hit the level cap. Sure, they are usually poorly implimented (our guild seems to have a Molten Core loot table that consists of 40% Warlock Set drops, 40% Druid Set drops, and 20% everything else) and overly time consuming, but if you participate often enough you do come away with something. I already have 3 pieces of my tier 1 mage set, and i have only been raiding with them for around 1 and a half months. And that is with the abominably low drop on mage gear. Title: Re: Alternatives to DKP Post by: Hoax on May 27, 2005, 07:53:21 AM Quote "Casual gamers" are just skilled at making excuses. ahh... Quote I already have 3 pieces of my tier 1 mage set, and i have only been raiding with them for around 1 and a half months. And that is with the abominably low drop on mage gear. I think thats his point? *starts making popcorn* Title: Re: Alternatives to DKP Post by: Malathor on May 27, 2005, 08:36:05 AM But wave da uber loot in front of their noses and it became a contest to see who could be the biggest raging douchebag. And this was a CASUAL guild, that supposedly enjoyed role-playing and wanted a guild with a "family" atmosphere. And people wonder why I bitch about the idiocy of end-game raiding. Actually you'll see a lot more of that in the purportedly casual guilds than you will in the top raiding guilds. The single most important characteristic that gets a guild to the top is the willingness of its players to sacrifice their own character's interests for the interests of the guild. Generally speaking, top raiding guilds simply don't tolerate lootwhoring bullshit. Title: Re: Alternatives to DKP Post by: Hoax on May 27, 2005, 09:57:44 AM What the fuck is a top raiding guild, seriously it disgusts me that we have a hierarchy for beating up on NPC's.
God I think I need to go back to fps games and stay there for another decade. Title: Re: Alternatives to DKP Post by: schild on May 27, 2005, 10:02:46 AM God I think I need to go back to fps games and stay there for another decade. What bothers me is despite how much I hate MMORPGs and everything about them, they're the best genre right now. Well, other than farming simulators. Have to wait for the new Harvest Moon though. Unfortunately you're a girl trying to get a guy. So maybe this one will be more...awkward than the last. Hm. I guess I really am just a bitch for virtual worlds. Title: Re: Alternatives to DKP Post by: WayAbvPar on May 27, 2005, 10:21:07 AM Quote Hm. I guess I really am just a bitch for virtual worlds. Sandbox slut! Title: Re: Alternatives to DKP Post by: Rasix on May 27, 2005, 10:27:05 AM What the fuck is a top raiding guild, seriously it disgusts me that we have a hierarchy for beating up on NPC's. Where have you been for the past 6 years? In WoW though, the destinction means less than it did in EQ. There's very little direct competition between guilds for spawns (the outdoor ones number 2 and it's just usually zergy alliance that gets them). It pretty just means what you can do on your own merit in WoW. I'm not really sure how that would disgust someone, it's just a distinction that only means something if you give a shit about it. Some guilds can tackle the high end stuff, some can't. Ooooh the outrage! Title: Re: Alternatives to DKP Post by: HaemishM on May 27, 2005, 12:00:06 PM Who's looking for a "family" atmosphere anyways? You're telling me your family never has constant bickering? You're telling me nobody in your family embarrasses the shit out of you? But no matter what, family is family, and you learn to put up with the fights and arguments and move forward. If you can't put up with it in a video game, good luck doing it in a real family. "Casual gamers" are just skilled at making excuses. I inherited the "family" atmosphere, but I tried to maintain it. It meant we could discuss and argue things, but out and out fucking each other in the ass over numbers in a database wasn't part of the equation. It was supposed to be more important that we all stayed friends and had FUN in the game than whether or not we could take out the "top tier" targets or get all the shineys. It was supposed to be about roleplaying and carousing and genuine friendship, where how much fun wasn't measured by our success or failure, but by the enjoyment of the activity. But all that went out the window once we were able to do raids, because no one wanted to do anything that didn't involve raiding or improving our chances at raiding anymore, unless of course, you weren't of the level to actually raid yet. And despite all my attempts, the ship never righted itself. I believe that I was entirely too nice in that time period, trying to appease as many as possible, when I would have been better off just bitchslapping a lot of those people to the curb. And as for casual gamers and excuses, catasses are really skilled at sounding like stuck-up cockholsters. Title: Re: Alternatives to DKP Post by: Hoax on May 27, 2005, 03:09:30 PM What the fuck is a top raiding guild, seriously it disgusts me that we have a hierarchy for beating up on NPC's. Where have you been for the past 6 years? In WoW though, the destinction means less than it did in EQ. There's very little direct competition between guilds for spawns (the outdoor ones number 2 and it's just usually zergy alliance that gets them). It pretty just means what you can do on your own merit in WoW. I'm not really sure how that would disgust someone, it's just a distinction that only means something if you give a shit about it. Some guilds can tackle the high end stuff, some can't. Ooooh the outrage! Sorry for the lack of green type, I figured it was not needed. My point was that its a fucking joke to rank anybody on their ability to beat up npc's. Its disgusting because THERE IS NO SKILL INVOLVED. There was more skill involved in beating a megaman X game then in learning the "strat" for MoltenCore. I spit on your fucking raid encounters, I have no problem having them in a game allot of people enjoy them. But when they are the measuring stick for player-ability I get disgusted. Am I still not making sense? @Schild: Agreed, I dont know that I can go back to fps games because I need my little virtual character and the promise of interacting with 1,000's of other people from around the world. But god damn I really can't take much more of these auto attack combat systems and everything else that adds up to one simple fact: /played > skill Guildwars should be the remedy, but so far it hasn't really grabbed me. I dont blame the game though as much as I just dont think I'm in the mood for rpg combat without a true online world. Put GuildWars thinking man's combat system into any mmog world and I'd stfu and play. Title: Re: Alternatives to DKP Post by: Rasix on May 27, 2005, 06:21:55 PM Sorry for the lack of green type, I figured it was not needed. My point was that its a fucking joke to rank anybody on their ability to beat up npc's. Its disgusting because THERE IS NO SKILL INVOLVED. There was more skill involved in beating a megaman X game then in learning the "strat" for MoltenCore. I spit on your fucking raid encounters, I have no problem having them in a game allot of people enjoy them. But when they are the measuring stick for player-ability I get disgusted. I've seen you say stupider so I took it at face value. I don't think anyone's saying that being in an upper-tier raid guild or being a raid-guild player denotes any sort of advanced skill or inherent superiority. Mostly it's a greater time invested, involvement in said guild, and a willingness to contribute and learn. But yes, I suppose it carries a measure of rank. Yes, it really means nothing and most people in said guilds know this. It's going to mean even less and battlegrounds and less in PVP since it uses a built-in visible rank. The rank calculated STILL isn't a good measure of player skill, but it's a start. But really, who fucking cares? Play the game and have fun in the manner you want to. Why care what others think of you and your place in the insignificant social hierarchy of a goddamn videogame? Title: Re: Alternatives to DKP Post by: Calantus on May 28, 2005, 03:50:53 AM Raiding is the measurestick for guilds who raid? WHO WOULD HAVE THOUGHT? I mean, if you are going to base your game around beating up NPCs, would you rank people based on how red their hair is? Seriously Hoax, hand off cock when posting please.
Perhaps we should go all PC about describing guilds, we could have all kinds of guilds like: - "Able to clear raid instances much faster than most guilds guilds" - "Guilds with far far more players than you would imagine are needed in any one guild guilds". - "Would raid MC but have better things to do with their time and otherwise could not be bothered guilds". - "Just made the guild so they could have a chat channel all to themselves, a tag, and spiffy little tabard guilds". Do we need to do that Hoax? Or can you take your hand off long enough to think with your brain and realise that raiding is the only way to guage a pve guild's overall standing amongst other guilds and if you don't like it you shouldn't care anyway? Or are you one of those weekend warrior "wish I had time to catass but I don't" types who hate their lot in MMOG life and explode in a fit of righteous rage when someone seemingly implies that someone else is better than them at something they wish they were good at? Get back to me when you've figured it out. Title: Re: Alternatives to DKP Post by: Typhon on May 28, 2005, 07:40:04 AM That's alot of emotion for something so intangilbe, from the both of you. I'm prescribing more nippletime, stat.
Title: Re: Alternatives to DKP Post by: Rasix on May 28, 2005, 08:40:25 AM OHHH, SNAP!
Title: Re: Alternatives to DKP Post by: Shockeye on May 28, 2005, 08:42:19 AM Or are you one of those weekend warrior "wish I had time to catass but I don't" types who hate their lot in MMOG life and explode in a fit of righteous rage when someone seemingly implies that someone else is better than them at something they wish they were good at? Stop talking about me! Title: Re: Alternatives to DKP Post by: chinslim on May 28, 2005, 08:56:54 AM I inherited the "family" atmosphere, but I tried to maintain it. It meant we could discuss and argue things, but out and out fucking each other in the ass over numbers in a database wasn't part of the equation. It was supposed to be more important that we all stayed friends and had FUN in the game than whether or not we could take out the "top tier" targets or get all the shineys. It was supposed to be about roleplaying and carousing and genuine friendship, where how much fun wasn't measured by our success or failure, but by the enjoyment of the activity. But all that went out the window once we were able to do raids, because no one wanted to do anything that didn't involve raiding or improving our chances at raiding anymore, unless of course, you weren't of the level to actually raid yet. And despite all my attempts, the ship never righted itself. I believe that I was entirely too nice in that time period, trying to appease as many as possible, when I would have been better off just bitchslapping a lot of those people to the curb. Dude, you're looking for a hippy commune.with.LSD, not a video game. Much anger I sense in you over the EQ past. Title: Re: Alternatives to DKP Post by: Calantus on May 28, 2005, 09:27:32 AM That's alot of emotion for something so intangilbe, from the both of you. I'm prescribing more nippletime, stat. I was reading the WoW boards for like 2 hours before coming here (plans got cancelled, nothing else on and didnt feel like playing WoW) so I was just angry at people in general. EDIT: The basic points still stand, I would have just been less violently angry in making them. I wont edit my post though, it should stand as warning to all those who would read the WoW boards. Title: Re: Alternatives to DKP Post by: Jayce on May 28, 2005, 02:50:49 PM You just realized this about Haemish? Your skill in Noticing the Obvious has improved! (10) Title: Re: Alternatives to DKP Post by: chinslim on May 28, 2005, 07:24:04 PM You just realized this about Haemish? Your skill in Noticing the Obvious has improved! (10) It's like somebody's scab you can pick on, I can't help myself! Title: Re: Alternatives to DKP Post by: SurfD on May 30, 2005, 10:52:49 PM Sorry for the lack of green type, I figured it was not needed. My point was that its a fucking joke to rank anybody on their ability to beat up npc's. Its disgusting because THERE IS NO SKILL INVOLVED. There was more skill involved in beating a megaman X game then in learning the "strat" for MoltenCore. I spit on your fucking raid encounters....... Just one question. Have you actually DONE a molten core raid, from start to finish? If yes, then I will take your comment with a grain of salt, if no, I respectfully request you go sodomize yourself with a spool of razor wire.There is a large deal of skill involved in many of the Molten core encounters. If your Main tank sucks, there are at LEAST 4 bosses in there who will rip you a new ass and wipe your entire party in VERY short order. If your entire 40 man team does not understand how to properly give and take aggro, you will die. If you dont understand the strategy for some of the encounters, you WILL die. Saying that there is no skill involved in doing MC is highly ignorant. There is a REASON that there are guilds on my (or any) server who can clear MC through to Ragnaros in 2 days, and guilds on the same server, who wipe to the 4th boss in repeatedly over a course of WEEKS and never progress farther. And I guarantee it has more to do with skill then it does anything else. Title: Re: Alternatives to DKP Post by: schild on May 30, 2005, 10:59:11 PM There's a big difference between skill and strategy.
For each encounter in any MMOG, there is basically one efficient strategy you can use to win. If your main tank sucks, he didn't use the right strategy. If he doesn't know the strategy he's just a bad player. Skill? Not particularly. Memorizing which of 4-5 hotkeys to press and when isn't skill. And if you can't do it, you need to go back to the 3rd grade. It's all far too easy to be considered skill. The closest thing I can think of to skill in an MMOG is picking 8 skills out of 75 in Guild Wars and then properly countering the countless combination of skills that will get thrown at you in PvP. As far as PvE goes? No. Not at all. Firestorm, Fireball, and then spam burst or something. Not skill. Strategy. Just like Molten Core or any other raid in any other MMOG. PvE takes the skill out of the equation completely. Now interacting with other human beings is a skill. But that's got nothing to do with the game. That has to do with being a functioning adult. Title: Re: Alternatives to DKP Post by: ajax34i on May 30, 2005, 11:40:56 PM I disagree. The strategy is the plan that's on paper, and I'm sure it can be found on fan/spoiler sites. It's one thing to know what you need to do, and another to actually be able do it, as they say. The fact that not every guild in WoW becomes instantly proficient at Molten Core raids the moment they read the spoiler "how to's" bespeaks of skill for the guilds that ARE proficient.
That you rate this skill as "worthless" is another thing. I don't think you learn "interacting with human beings" much in MMO's; you mostly apply what life has taught you thus far, maybe learn one or two rules of communication now and then. From my point of view, you learn much less about "interacting with human beings" in a MMOG than you learn about the intricacies of its PvE game. Title: Re: Alternatives to DKP Post by: Zetor on May 31, 2005, 12:39:42 AM DKP = loot is priority #1 in the guild, everything else is secondary.
Fuck that. If you have guildies getting pissy about imaginary purple pixels, your guild missed the fun train, imo. -- Z. Title: Re: Alternatives to DKP Post by: Rasix on May 31, 2005, 01:10:21 AM DKP = loot is priority #1 in the guild, everything else is secondary. Fuck that. If you have guildies getting pissy about imaginary purple pixels, your guild missed the fun train, imo. -- Z. Where are we, in the land of fairies and gumdrops? Can we just magically whisk 60 people of different ethnicities, temperments, ages, etc etc and expect them to have the same outlook on what's fair, fun, and important? Stop being elf-humping, MMORPG hippies. And one last thing (not directed at you, Zetor): execution of strategy takes skill. Stop thinking what you did to PWN murlocs at level 20 applies to anthing you do in a raid environment. Title: Re: Alternatives to DKP Post by: Zetor on May 31, 2005, 01:24:19 AM Where are we, in the land of fairies and gumdrops? Can we just magically whisk 60 people of different ethnicities, temperments, ages, etc etc and expect them to have the same outlook on what's fair, fun, and important? Stop being elf-humping, MMORPG hippies. Fair 'nuff... I guess I got spoiled with a guild that's been together since '97. Then again, we're probably too small to ever attempt molten core or whatever, so yah.-- Z. Title: Re: Alternatives to DKP Post by: SurfD on May 31, 2005, 01:43:49 PM DKP = loot is priority #1 in the guild, everything else is secondary. Fuck that. If you have guildies getting pissy about imaginary purple pixels, your guild missed the fun train, imo. -- Z. I would say that DKP = An at least moderately efficent way to distribute 10 hotly contested loot drops among 40 people without having someone get really pissed for any number of reasons. If loot was "Priority #1" then you wouldnt be using DKP, you would have the Guild Officers distributing it. Title: Re: Alternatives to DKP Post by: Zane0 on May 31, 2005, 03:05:44 PM A lot of MC bosses are fairly well designed, in that many of their abilities are unpredictable and require a certain amount of awareness to counter.
Gehennas for instance, is a tricky boss. He has two minions, an AoE curse that reduces healing by 75%, random aoe fire rains, and random shadow bolts. You need to separate the minions and tank them and have mages and druids active with removing the heal curse, which is traditional MMO fare, but the random effects make things very crazy. Almost everyone is always moving when close to Gehennas, because staying put will mean a death by the fire storms, and everyone is watching their health and the health of others, because the random shadow bolts are about 2 or 3 k. If you don't pay attention, or if you're really unlucky, you can run into two fire rains in a row and/or take a shadow bolt at a bad time, and bite the dust really fast. Anyways, yeah, there's a good amount of skill involved in MC; you need to be aware of many things at once, and make proper snap judgements from that information. Success also depends on proper communication, planning, and coordination of course, but you need willing and able raiders to take all that in. It's never boring to raid one of the bosses, really. Title: Re: Alternatives to DKP Post by: Sogrinaugh on June 01, 2005, 07:27:37 AM Question to the rest of the people out thier running MC:
Do you enjoy it? I mean at all? I guess part of my problem is my system (1.7ghz celeron, geforce 2, no i cant upgrade the geforce 6600GT i got was incompatible) which makes the fps pretty alow at points, but even without that, you have this giant CTRaid thing taking up your viewscreen, only use 2 spells (renew and flash heal), with dispel magic use in certain parts... I remember reading, before i got either of my char's to 60, how "boring" scholo n strath are, and how people were so SICK of running them over and over to get thier gear (course back then they'd do them in groups of 20 so had a much lower chance at any given drop), but personally i find 5-manning places like that pretty fun. Yes wipes can be frustrating, most particularly when you cant seem to find a solution or pinpoint what you are doing wrong (happend to us while 5-manning alexi), but you are doing so many things, alot of different strategies are viable. I dont have 7 other priests cock-blocking my greater heals, thierby wasting whatever effort i have put into learning to time one properly, mind control is both viable and useful at times, shadow spells can be useful in places, etc. Whereas in MC, because the number of people is so much greater, the individual roles of those people becomes so much more specialized, and this squashes variety in the gameplay, and for me at least, kills the fun. WoW is a game in which i can honestly say i enjoyed the journey, yes even post-honor system when my mage was still 49. But MC seems all about the destination. Thier is a sense of "damn, well we did it" the first time you down kazzak, or azuregos, or majordomo, but the actual process by which you do it is pretty mind-numbing. Title: Re: Alternatives to DKP Post by: Paelos on June 01, 2005, 07:57:01 AM MC is fun in the sense that's chaotic. It's not really mind numbing because something always goes wrong. It's also very evident that you can't throw 40 people together and expect to get past the first few mobs. As dumb as it sounds, 40 people is a bare minimum for MC, and you will often wipe if you get just one add.
Compare that to Strat Baron runs. I can throw ten people together and basically run the place in an hour and a half, and that's if they suck. Title: Re: Alternatives to DKP Post by: Tairnyn on June 01, 2005, 08:04:42 AM Our guild is currently using the 'Bidding DKP' system outlined in the 2nd or 3rd post. We originally started out using DKP/iDKP where DKP was awarded only when loot dropped and iDKP was awarded for attendance and used as a tie-breaker. This original system led to problems when one set of class-specific loot drops a lot. We had some classes who are all negative and others with huge amounts of points never giving back to the system due to no loot.
The bidding system allows for people to bid based on their perceived value of the item, which accurately reflects highly contested loots and allows those looking for specific pieces to bid high for them. All in all, it's more fun and easier to keep track of. Rather than officers determining item value as they drop, values are determine dby the players allowing for much simplere bookkeeping. This also allows for easy distribution of extra items such as Onyxia Hide Backpack and such. Personally, I'm not sick of MC yet, but when we can take Ragnaros I may get a little jaded. >< Title: Re: Alternatives to DKP Post by: SurfD on June 01, 2005, 01:31:59 PM I cant say that I find MC boring, and it is a fairly decent challenge even with a group that knows what it is doing. (Oh, and we set a new guild record last night. MC, from Start to Finish, in just under 7 Hours, Including Ragnaros)
Title: Re: Alternatives to DKP Post by: Rasix on June 01, 2005, 02:07:15 PM Heh, my guild isn't quite there yet. We've downed Luci, Mag, Geh, and Gar, but that's what you get when you're a on a backwater server on wrong end of a 4-1 alliance-horde ratio and have a high foreign population (yet again, somehow I get on a server with a ton of asians). I think we could have done Lucu-Mag in an hour 30 if a MC virgin didn't wander off to the right and train us during trash mob time (thus fucking up the timers).
The boss fights are great fun. They're very tense and take some very precise execution. Being a shaman during the Mag fight is pretty fun stuff. I had to juggle being in the secondary healing rotation while keeping the hunters protected with totems. The trash mobs are just ungodly boring, though. Clearing to the bosses makes me feel like I'm back in EQ. I get the whole psychosomatic flu like symptoms that only a 6+ hour planes raid can induce. Makes me hate playing. Then I get to the boss and it's fun again! /sigh Title: Re: Alternatives to DKP Post by: Calantus on June 01, 2005, 05:01:31 PM MC is fun in the sense that's chaotic. It's not really mind numbing because something always goes wrong. It's also very evident that you can't throw 40 people together and expect to get past the first few mobs. As dumb as it sounds, 40 people is a bare minimum for MC, and you will often wipe if you get just one add. Compare that to Strat Baron runs. I can throw ten people together and basically run the place in an hour and a half, and that's if they suck. My guild has never had a full 40 in MC and we regularly take it on with less than 35. We took out Gehennas for the first time the other day with 33 people and the entire run took 30 mins to get to him, 30 mins of setup, and about 15 mins of battle. I'm having alot of fun, but I also have alot to say on strategy and I call out the healer rotations so I have a more active role than most. We use officer assigned loot. Title: Re: Alternatives to DKP Post by: SurfD on June 01, 2005, 10:57:07 PM MC in a less then 40 man group is easily doable up to Ghennas (Did you do Magmadar before or after they nerfed him? I think I was on one run pre nerf, and there is a signifigant amount of difference between his damage output now). You could probably do Baron in 30-35 man also, however Gar, Sulfuron, Shazzra and Golemag will probably fuck you up big time with less then the full 40, simply because you need the extra damage/tanking/healing/special stuff that those extra 5 to 10 people bring.
Title: Re: Alternatives to DKP Post by: chinslim on June 01, 2005, 11:10:18 PM I think you can tell the difference between a newb MC group and an experienced one by how many warlocks they try to bring.
Title: Re: Alternatives to DKP Post by: Rasix on June 01, 2005, 11:34:58 PM I think you can tell the difference between a newb MC group and an experienced one by how many warlocks they try to bring. Guess I'm too nooby then to know. What's the magic number for warlocks, o wise one? We've had at least 3-4 active ones come lately; hasn't been a problem. Although two would probably rather play their hunter or priest alts. Honestly, we were getting to a point where we were running short on warlocks with most of them playing their alts (it was too the point where often have none on, sorry late comers, no ports!). One's consistantly in the top 5 for DPS; I think only a rogue was higher than him this last run,. For some odd reason, all but one of our rogues seem to do rather crappily in MC for DPS (might be all of the running in and out of battle). Sadly, I'm never allowed to rogue it up in MC, for some reason they'd rather have my shaman and his back-up spot healing and occasional useful totem dropping. Although really, we're still at the point where we take anyone that's on until we fill up. There's no you can or can't go. I suppose if we were at the point where we had 60 people online, then we'd probably have to limit some class participation. Title: Re: Alternatives to DKP Post by: Calantus on June 01, 2005, 11:50:39 PM We take 3 warlocks generally, 2 sometimes. We want 4-5.
Also Garr seems very doable to me with less than 40. The only reason we lost to him the last time was when a warlock messed up, died, and their add raped the healers. We still managed to kill most of the adds we could not banish and the healer rotation was doing fine until some got killed. Honestly, once we get Garr on his own but for the banishes all that is required is a good rotation on the main tank and the DPS will slowly grind him to nothing no-matter how long it takes. So far only Rag sounds to be a boss where less than 40 will fuck you hard only because killing him before the 2nd round of sons seems to be key. No we did not take on Mag before the patch, I was only stating what we had done to show it can be done now I could care less about before. Rasix >> Your rogues suck, you don't have enough healers, or your guild is stuck on the "don't heal rogues" philosophy. Even with less healers than we'd like it's perfectly possible for spot healers to be free to heal whatever isn't full be it rogue, warrior, or w/e. Keeping your DPS in the fight longer is better than healers standing around with their thumb up their ass. Especially on trash, there's no excuse for a rogue to ever die or bandage on trash. Title: Re: Alternatives to DKP Post by: NiX on June 02, 2005, 01:55:29 AM What's so magical about a Warlock going on these raids?
Title: Re: Alternatives to DKP Post by: SurfD on June 02, 2005, 03:17:52 AM Warlocks get banish, a crowd controll ability that lets you remove a Demon or Elemental from the fight for around 30-40 seconds. There are a LOT of Elementals in Molten Core, where an on the ball warlock can basicly act as a tank for that Mob, effectively pinning it down for the entire fight and freeing a healer to heal main tanks/mele damage characters. Not to mention that a Warlock can often prevent an accidental wipe if you gain aggro on one of the Lava Surgers / Annhilators when fighting something else.
Warlocks are almost required for the Garr fight (1 super boss mob, 8 little elemental adds that hit fairly hard) because Garr can force the things to detonate for a LOT of damage over a fairly big area, and unless you have a Warlock keep at least one banished, he just keeps summoning more (I have also been told that the more of them you kill, the tougher he gets, so it is generally most groups strategy to keep 2 of them permabanished for the duration of the fight.). Nothing like having one of them slip out of your warlock's controll, run strait at one of your Heal/Caster teams, and detonate, instantly killing 1/3 of your raid group. Title: Re: Alternatives to DKP Post by: penfold on June 02, 2005, 04:38:58 AM I don't think anyone's saying that being in an upper-tier raid guild or being a raid-guild player denotes any sort of advanced skill or inherent superiority. Mostly it's a greater time invested, involvement in said guild, and a willingness to contribute and learn. But yes, I suppose it carries a measure of rank. Yes, it really means nothing and most people in said guilds know this. It's going to mean even less and battlegrounds and less in PVP since it uses a built-in visible rank. The rank calculated STILL isn't a good measure of player skill, but it's a start. But really, who fucking cares? Play the game and have fun in the manner you want to. Why care what others think of you and your place in the insignificant social hierarchy of a goddamn videogame? In my guild i had people who actually came out and stated that they measured success in their overall life in terms of success in EQ. Its _really hard to deal with people who look upon MMOGS not as game, but as an alternative lifestyle. Title: Re: Alternatives to DKP Post by: Rasix on June 02, 2005, 10:45:48 AM Its _really hard to deal with people who look upon MMOGS not as game, but as an alternative lifestyle. Yah, that's definitely an issue. Big issue really with my guild at the moment. Our guild pretty much raids 3-4 times a week. We like to give at least a day off inbetween raid. There's spur of the moment things like UBRS, dragons for Onyxia key, etc, but those aren't compulsory and you can really just skip out if you want to. There's been a very vocal component in the guild that wants to be in MC 7 days a week. The same vocal component wants our raids to start an hour earlier. The same people don't bat an eye on blowing 80+ hours of DKP on a single item in Molten Core. These are people that when I said, "why the hell do you schedule Onyxia at 7pm on a Friday?" came back with "most of us play at 7pm." They don't get that there are people that go out to eat on a Friday, spend time with their family or generally have leisure activities that do not involve foozle wacking. It's really hard to tell these people, "look, Sunday raids are always going to have poor attendance" and get them to actually UNDERSTAND. They want loot restricted to members that just don't show up on raid days. They want people to not be allowed to play alts or have all alts within the guild system. I'm just waiting for someone to suggest mandatory raid attendence... Bad part is most of them are considered core or founding members. They're heard very loud and clear, but so far have been ignored in favor of not burning people out and pissing people off. Title: Re: Alternatives to DKP Post by: Paelos on June 02, 2005, 11:13:08 AM Uber raiding guilds don't want you to have a life. It's due to the arms race effect of MMOs. It starts off small, but eventually you are gaming in a police state.
Title: Re: Alternatives to DKP Post by: chinslim on June 02, 2005, 03:33:10 PM What's so magical about a Warlock going on these raids? Thanks to a certain MC guide that recommends only having 2-3 warlocks, and along with the 8 debuff limit, starting MC raid groups usually start off with only so many warlocks. Then they finally get some experience and run into Garr and the lava packs beyond. Title: Re: Alternatives to DKP Post by: SurfD on June 02, 2005, 06:29:48 PM What's so magical about a Warlock going on these raids? Thanks to a certain MC guide that recommends only having 2-3 warlocks, and along with the 8 debuff limit, starting MC raid groups usually start off with only so many warlocks. Then they finally get some experience and run into Garr and the lava packs beyond. Actually, MC is easily doable with only 2 warlocks. We very frequently do it with just two (fucking warlocks have nearly complete sets of Felheart gear simply because they get defaulted the pieces when it drops, they never have to compete on rolls, and the shit drops way too often.) Title: Re: Alternatives to DKP Post by: chinslim on June 02, 2005, 10:16:37 PM I wouldn't call MC easily doable with 2 warlocks. You'd have to compensate with 7+ warriors on Garr's minions or have hunters/mages who can constantly trap/FN. Loose minions tear healers apart. Then on the lava packs, a few resisted banishes(which happens alot) are going to put the hurt on.
Oh wait, you're Alliance, right? Title: Re: Alternatives to DKP Post by: SurfD on June 03, 2005, 05:12:59 PM Nope, not alliance. Undead Mage,, with The Offenders (one of the larger horde guilds on Tichondrious, and one which also seems to draw a lot of the Drama from time to time).
And nah, Garr is usually fairly easy, we usually have about 4 or 5 warriors in the raid, at least 2 warlocks and if need be a Bear Druid and a nice assortment of hunters to keep the Firesworn occupied long enough to kill them down to manageable numbers. Focused fire eats them, and we can usually kill 2 or 3 within the first minute of the encounter. Actually, I think the last time we wiped on Garr was due to the fact that we brought a new guild warlock along, who was 59 at the time, and a bad resist snowballed into death when Garr forced the loose minion to erupt and killed 1/3 of our DPS As for the flame packs, if 2 Warlocks cant keep the Rock Elementals occupied long enough to take out the Fire ones (which are unbanishable) then the warlocks suck. Title: Re: Alternatives to DKP Post by: Sairon on July 04, 2005, 05:21:50 PM The first couple of trips to MC was really fun, it actually takes skill to kill the bosses. 1 guy doing something wrong can easily fuck up the entire raid, everybody needs to be well informed and do their things properly. When I started playing WoW I was really looking forward to the promised PvP aspect, and thought that I would force myself to do some end game raiding for some phats and help out the guild. Well it turns out I enjoyed raiding MC more than I enjoy warsong/alterac.
Sure MC becomes routine after a while, when you've beaten a boss a couple of times and people become familiar with them it's just to go in and slay them. But when you fight bosses for the first couple of times, it's really exciting. The first few attempts you're pretty much prepared to wipe and concentrate on analyzing to see what can be done better next attempt. We have all 40 guys on voice com to dicuss/give orders and it works really well. And even if conquest was pretty fast to release their strategies we pretty fast came up with variations which we found working better for us. My guild uses a system where we award 1 DKP for every hour spent and 3 DKP for a boss kill. Awarding 1 point every hour is more representetive of time and effort spent raiding perhaps, but to award some extra points for actually killing bosses means people have more motivation to stay until the boss actually is slain. While we have seen some inflation due to the fact that we started out with 0 DKP, it has pretty much stabilized now. I recommend giving everybody 70 DKP when you start the system to avoid this. To distribute the loot we use a biding system which is open. In the end the guy who valued the item highest gets it. And this is pretty much the charm of the system, people can prioritize and choose. We use a minimum value, but it's way below what the items are really worth. This is done to avoid warlocks for example to get pimped out with their class specific loot extremly fast and have tons of points over to get cross class loot. To administrate we have a page ( http://www.mmorpgs.org/refusion/dkp/ ) where everyone can view their points and for raid leaders to administrate. This also makes it way harder for leaders to cheat the guild by toying around with the numbers, since it's all open on the site to see where all points come from and on what they've been spent on. Overall I've found DKP superior to /random in every single way. And it's not really so complex, all the average raider needs to understand is that he gets 3 points for a boss and 1 point per hour, and that if he bids highest on an item he wins it. Hardly requires a math degree. Title: Re: Alternatives to DKP Post by: WindupAtheist on July 05, 2005, 03:09:15 AM Jesus, what sort of fucking catass bullshit is this? My "endgame" is making a new character.
Title: Re: Alternatives to DKP Post by: Zetor on July 05, 2005, 05:10:33 AM I agree with WU--
fuck. -- Z. Title: Re: Alternatives to DKP Post by: Sogrinaugh on July 05, 2005, 06:12:56 AM Overall I've found DKP superior to /random in every single way. And it's not really so complex, all the average raider needs to understand is that he gets 3 points for a boss and 1 point per hour, and that if he bids highest on an item he wins it. Hardly requires a math degree. Would you care to explain exactly how or why its better?My guild's loot system acknowledges 2 types of loot: End-game and Freeroll. End-game items are items that you will use in a given item slot untill every single other person in the guild has one in that slot (who can take advantage of it). Thus, once you win Azuresong Mageblade, for example, you are unable to roll on any other weapons untill every single other caster has an end-game weapon (though of course you can roll on offhands). Free-roll items are items that NO ONE IN THE WHOLE GUILD (or of a given class) wants as an end-game item. For these items, officers assign, based primarily on who has least and who would actually equip the item untill they win whatever item they want for thier "end-game" (like this weekend, Arcanist crown dropped and was asigned to a mage who didn't want it as end-game, but who had 0 epic's). If it could go to any of a number of people, the officers (consists of 5 people, at least 4 of whom are almost always on) asign people who may roll. You can have no more then 1 free-roll item per slot. Occasionally, items drop that suck so bad no one wants them as thier end-game or freeroll (the claw that magmadar drops, the polearm/bow thingy that the guy after shazzrah drops). These items are /random 100 for by pretty much anyone who can equip it. Additionally, common sense applies. We don't allow dickheads into the guild who dont understand thier class, so we dont have rogues rolling on fast weapons for thier mainhand, or hunters rolling against rogues on daggers for the equip bonus... (not end-game items anyway). I find the DKP system extremely distasteful, due to how it seems to come from and encourage a sense of entitlement. "I've been here MORE, i DESERVE this item" seems so fucking infantile. The way i see loot is, if you win, great, if you dont, DEAL. Everyone is allowed a "omg u hax, plz die fuxx0r" when they lose a roll, but after that shut the fuck up about it. Everyone will eventually get thier loot, all the roll actually does is determine who gets it first, and each person who wins is 1 less roller you are competing with next time, so each person who wins a given item makes it increasingly more likely that you will win the next (though some items, like talisman of ephemeral power, are desired by so many classes that this effect will be extremely slow). I also dislike how with DKP, you can just save up points for a long time to out-bid anyone on a given item. It reminds me of someone browsing in a store forever before purchasing a single item. This sort of behavior is fine... IF YOU'RE A WOMAN. Anal-retentive bean-counting ftl. Title: Re: Alternatives to DKP Post by: Ironwood on July 05, 2005, 06:40:15 AM I also dislike how with DKP, you can just save up points for a long time to out-bid anyone on a given item. It reminds me of someone browsing in a store forever before purchasing a single item. This sort of behavior is fine... IF YOU'RE A WOMAN. I agreed with the rest of your post, but this was the wind beneath my wings. Title: Re: Alternatives to DKP Post by: Sairon on July 05, 2005, 12:27:15 PM First of all it's superior because it leaves people with the ability to prioritize, when it's /random 100 everybody rolls if they can equip it ( well sort of atleast ). Some DKP systems use a fixed value on items which people pays, but I'm totaly against that sorta stuff, an item is worth exactly the ammount of DKP as people are willing to bid on it. In reality DKP awards the same ammount of loot / effort as /random 100 does. I don't think it turns it into a job sort of deal, I've never felt it like that atleast.
It's more like DKP earns you items in the same way as crafting does, while /random 100 is the non-raid instance way of doing it. With crafting you can pretty much meassure up when you're geting the item because you know how long it will take to gather the materials. With the non-raid instances you can get whatever you're looking for the first run, or you can get unlucky and not get what you want until raid no 100. I see the fact that you can save up points a really large strength, the tactic to stay on top with points and get all the super loot doesn't work that well in practice. 1 reason being that there's so much good loot, and even if you have the most points and something nice drops you're hardly going to get it for free. We've never seen a scenario where for example 7 shamans has close to zero points and then 1 last shaman has 100s of points, there's always someone with a decent ammount of points to push up the price.In fact those who use that tactic have the least number of phats. In the end it's not really "I've been here MORE, i DESERVE this item", it's more like "I happen to want this item and CURRENTLY have more points than you, the only thing you can do about it this time around is to make me pay all your points +1" Title: Re: Alternatives to DKP Post by: SurfD on July 05, 2005, 04:13:40 PM I also dislike how with DKP, you can just save up points for a long time to out-bid anyone on a given item. It reminds me of someone browsing in a store forever before purchasing a single item. This sort of behavior is fine... IF YOU'RE A WOMAN. I agreed with the rest of your post, but this was the wind beneath my wings.This also only works on a "DKP Bid" system. If your system is NOT based on Bidding a Number, things are a bit more fairly balanced. A classic example of why "DKP Bids" are screwed was a post I spotted somewhere where a Warrior bid on a weapon that everyone seems to consider a Rogue exclusive item. The Warrior bid 50 pts, the Rogue 40 and the Warrior won and then the Rogue went and pissed and moaned on the forums that he was "Ninjad" out of his weapon when it was his own damn fault for trying to undercut the item and bid low in hopes of being the only bidder. The system we use basicly uses your accumulated DKP as a "Buffer" to give you a higher overall Roll. We still /random, but your Random Range is influenced by your Accumulated DKP. Seems to be a bit more friendly in granting even distribution of loot then the Bid model. In the end it's not really "I've been here MORE, i DESERVE this item", it's more like "I happen to want this item and CURRENTLY have more points than you, the only thing you can do about it this time around is to make me pay all your points +1" I think the idea of Non Fixed value on items is a totally fucked way to spend DKP, mainly because of the asstardery (like the above example) it encourages. An item should have a fixed value, agreed upon by your guild, which you spend in DKP. This allows for the devalueing of items for unforseen occurances. Example: Our guild was recently awarding some of the caster offhands from MC at rediculously high DKP costs. New patch comes along and adds a wider variety of them, as well as increaseing their drop rate. As a result, we simply adjusted the cost of the item downwards to reflect a more accurately balanced cost and refunded some DKP.If you go exclusively with the "Bid what you think its worth" policy, you also end up with problems like thje following: There are only 2 warlocks in our MC runs, and they both got 90% of their MC Set Gear for dirt cheap, while the Mages have been spending DKP like mad cause there is so much competition for the gear. As a result, the Locks now have an overwhelming advantage over the Mages should Cross class items drop. Title: Re: Alternatives to DKP Post by: TheWalrus on July 05, 2005, 11:34:53 PM Sucks you can't trust people enough to run a straight NBG freeroll. But then, I'm one of those casual gamers with excuses.
Title: Re: Alternatives to DKP Post by: Zetor on July 06, 2005, 12:18:31 AM My guild does NBG and has a fair-ish loot system otherwise (alpha on crap greens, greed on boe blues and stuff like righteous orbs -- if you've already won a greed roll, you pass until everyone won, if you won a REALLY expensive greedroll like a boe epic that nobody needs, you pass all your greed rolls from then on, etc), so everyone wins at least SOMETHING each raid or instance run. This helps keep the morale up -- I remember the 20+ pickup UBRS raids I've attended where the only thing I had to show for it in the end was 6 runecloth and a 2g repair bill, heh. Sure my guild won't do MC or BWL, but we'll do Gurubashi when it comes out...
-- Z. Title: Re: Alternatives to DKP Post by: Rasix on July 06, 2005, 12:56:25 AM Sucks you can't trust people enough to run a straight NBG freeroll. But then, I'm one of those casual gamers with excuses. God, it has to be said at least once anytime someone drags uber guild loot distribution out for discussion, doesn't it? This is the fucking internet. I don't trust a goddamn soul here. Hell, it's not even a question of trust for most people in that situation. It's effort, time, and right. If I ever jump back into the whole uber guild shebang, it'll be DKP or nothing at all. Dice suck almost worse than people. And stop it with the "unfrozen caveman lawyer" bit, just because you're casual, doesn't mean you can't see the use of putting a system in place to curb the baser instincts of 40-60 complete strangers all fighting for the last tater tot. edit: Yes, not having a computer right now makes me cranky. I could all scare you and post my rant I wrote for doucebag week but never finished. Vile it was. Title: Re: Alternatives to DKP Post by: Calantus on July 06, 2005, 07:29:29 AM If I played only with close friends and family there's no way in hell we'd roll for MC loot. It's not about trust, it's about not letting random distribution randomly fuck people over. It's not fun to have put in the same amount of work as someone and not have any epics to your name when they have 5-6 just because of the dice. It's already random enough with class loot drops. Right now there are hunters with no loot at all (I think we've had 3 hunter loots drop) whereas the only shaman with less than 4 epics is me and only because I missed a 6-epic-haul last run (1 BoP off each of the first 3 bosses, also 3 bracers dropping).
I'd also have to say I don't like bidding, it seems like a system that is just begging to cause conflict. You can't NOT ride up a price because then someone just needs to get up to an unassailable DKP total and just win and win and win because everyone knows they can't outbid them. So you get situations where everyone knows it is going to a certain person, but they are having to bid against someone who is riding the bid up just to blow your points. Some people don't understand that this is how it's supposed to work and get butthurt. It also wastes alot of time and quite frankly, I want my non-boss-fight-time kept to a minimum because while they are enjoyable enough, the rest of Molten Core makes me want to slash my wrists. I think that a DKP-like system with set prices for each item is my personal favourite. Take everyone that wants the item, compare their DKP earned to their DKP spent and then award it to whoever has the highest number. Our guild uses something similar, only all epics count exactly the same which means alot of people don't want to call need on the lesser epics. What this does mean is you can pickup the lesser items real easy, but it doesn't sit completely right to me. Title: Re: Alternatives to DKP Post by: HaemishM on July 06, 2005, 08:01:59 AM Sucks you can't trust people enough to run a straight NBG freeroll. But then, I'm one of those casual gamers with excuses. When it comes to loot, you can't trust a goddam soul unless you have the physical ability to choke the living shit out of them. People with no business doing so will step over their grandmother's grave if it meant they got a new shiney. I've never been so disgusted with people than when I was trying to set up a fair NBG loot policy for my EQ guild back in the day. Title: Re: Alternatives to DKP Post by: Bunk on July 06, 2005, 08:33:21 AM Most of my guild works in the same building, so yes, we can choke the ever loving shit out of one another if neccessary.
Title: Re: Alternatives to DKP Post by: TheWalrus on July 06, 2005, 06:03:09 PM Well, for my group NBG works just fine. We aren't the leet fellas that the uber guys are, but we've been gamin together for almost seven years. Yeah I trust em. Anyone else that jumps on the horse will take quite a while for me to get used to, but even then, I don't really care that much.
As far as the unfrozen caveman lawyer. Ooga booga. I never advocated a complete void of a system. Wait...nope didn't. I totally understand the use for one. My statement stands. It does suck you can't count on the next guy to turn into the Cookie Crisp Crook when something of even minor value drops, whether he can use it or not. And while I like tater tots, I have the vision to steal the fucking ketchup, so it doesn't do them any good to take the last one. :P Title: Re: Alternatives to DKP Post by: SurfD on July 06, 2005, 07:49:55 PM I think the general idea of DKP is that it only gets used in specific instances. Of course we dont use DKP for EVERYTHING, we NBG or whatever in regular 5/10 man instance runs (Scholo, Strath, DM, etc) Its only when you are running the Major, 40 man, 6 +hour raid instances like Ony, MC and BWL that a system like DKP becomes somewhat required.
Title: Re: Alternatives to DKP Post by: chinslim on July 06, 2005, 10:11:49 PM Jesus, what sort of fucking catass bullshit is this? My "endgame" is making a new character. I currently spend ~9 hours total per week playing WoW doing a full MC clear including Rag, and Onyxia. I don't think that falls within the definitions of catassing. Thanks to DKP, I've been in a stable raiding group that's lasted for 6 months now. Raids leave and end as scheduled and I don't need to waste hours LFG. Granted, the DKP ssytem is dependent on one catass to lead and account for the whole raid group...but that's 1 guy out of 50. Title: Re: Alternatives to DKP Post by: El Gallo on July 07, 2005, 01:08:02 PM I currently spend ~9 hours total per week playing WoW doing a full MC clear including Rag, and Onyxia. I don't think that falls within the definitions of catassing. Thanks to DKP, I've been in a stable raiding group that's lasted for 6 months now. Raids leave and end as scheduled and I don't need to waste hours LFG. Granted, the DKP ssytem is dependent on one catass to lead and account for the whole raid group...but that's 1 guy out of 50. You will never get through to your casual gamer board warrior. Right now, their minds are going "but...but....but....you have shinier loot than I...that must mean you live in the game and shit in a sock...it must, it must mean that... entire...worldview... shattered...must...repress...and post another "WAHHH BLIZZ ONLY LOVES CATASSES" thread." Title: Re: Alternatives to DKP Post by: HaemishM on July 07, 2005, 01:30:17 PM The casual player rarely has anything in common with a well-organized group of people.
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