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Title: Science is the Devil!
Post by: WayAbvPar on March 23, 2005, 01:22:19 PM
Southern cities refuse to show IMAX film that mentions evolution (http://www.cnn.com/2005/SHOWBIZ/Movies/03/23/volcano.movie.ap/index.html).

Quote
CHARLESTON, South Carolina (AP) -- IMAX theaters in several Southern cities have decided not to show a film on volcanoes out of concern that its references to evolution might offend those with fundamental religious beliefs.

"We've got to pick a film that's going to sell in our area. If it's not going to sell, we're not going to take it," said Lisa Buzzelli, director of an IMAX theater in Charleston that is not showing the movie. "Many people here believe in creationism, not evolution."

The film, "Volcanoes of the Deep Sea," makes a connection between human DNA and microbes inside undersea volcanoes.

Buzzelli doesn't rule out showing the movie in the future.

IMAX theaters in Texas, Georgia and the Carolinas have declined to show the film, said Pietro Serapiglia, who handles distribution for Stephen Low, the film's Montreal-based director and producer.

"I find it's only in the South," Serapiglia said.

Critics worry screening out films that mention evolution will discourage the production of others in the future.

"It's going to restrain the creative approach by directors who refer to evolution," said Joe DeAmicis, vice president for marketing at the California Science Center in Los Angeles and a former director of an IMAX theater. "References to evolution will be dropped."

Sigh. This just makes me sad. 


Title: Re: Science is the Devil!
Post by: Riggswolfe on March 23, 2005, 01:23:38 PM
The thing that fascinates me about this is that the more we push religion out of public life (IE prayer in schools etc) the more it seems to gain a stranglehold on private life.



Title: Re: Science is the Devil!
Post by: Paelos on March 23, 2005, 01:24:26 PM
It's capitalism at work.


Title: Re: Science is the Devil!
Post by: HaemishM on March 23, 2005, 01:29:12 PM
What a bunch of fucking tools.


Title: Re: Science is the Devil!
Post by: MaceVanHoffen on March 23, 2005, 01:58:11 PM
See, the problem I have with this attitude is not so much the creationism vs. evolutionism debate itself; rather, it's people who are closeminded and have no interest in hearing another point of view.  Even further, they seem interested in stopping the other point of view from having a voice, though that's really a larger issue.  People on both sides of the creationism/evolutionism debate have the problem.  In fact, it's really a general problem with almost any polarizing debate humans ever take part in.

Why only read/watch things that agree with one's own point of view all the time?  Does one need to be constantly re-re-re-re-convinced of what you think?  Can't a person's own mental viewpoint withstand another's?  What I call broadening horizons is what other people call cavorting with TEH ENEMY.  Wars and much human misery come from that crap.

Trends like this aren't just "capitalism at work," they're the tips of cultural icebergs.


Title: Re: Science is the Devil!
Post by: Sky on March 23, 2005, 02:01:52 PM
Really gunning for the good old days, those christian fundamentalists or whatever you want to call them as to not upset the delicate sensibilities of other believers in that particular strain of invisible superbeings.

By good old days, I mean the good old days of christianity, aka the Dark Ages.


Title: Re: Science is the Devil!
Post by: stray on March 23, 2005, 02:25:37 PM
or whatever you want to call them as to not upset the delicate sensibilities of other believers in that particular strain of invisible superbeings.

Bah! Be nice  :-P I hate them too. I'm just a guitar player when it comes down to it  :mrgreen:

I'm just not going to take any shit when some people equate the whole thing with those other assholes. That's all. That's not having "delicate sensibilities" imo. That's telling people to be a little more openminded and to get their head out of their asses.


Title: Re: Science is the Devil!
Post by: jpark on March 23, 2005, 02:42:47 PM
I have this nagging feeling our society is getting dumbed down and this while anecdotal is an example.

TIME magazine articles 30 years ago assumed much more knowledge of politics than the same articles from the same magazine today.  This is what I have been told - I have no corroborating evidence.

The South screens out evolution - and then people with aspirations in science have a wee problem understanding immune regulation, embryological development and neural networks theory because they have never really been exposed to the tenents of Darwinism.

Darwinism, while it discusses a historical event - invokes processes that are active parts of our current understanding of basic physiology today.  In other words, arguments about Darwin is not just about the history of life, but also about the essential processes that shape and maintain our bodies (in this case the differential selection of certain cell lines within the "environment"of our bodies).

bah.






Title: Re: Science is the Devil!
Post by: Strazos on March 23, 2005, 02:50:52 PM
By good old days, I mean the good old days of christianity, aka the Dark Ages.

The "good ole days" would more-properly be either the Medieval or late-Roman periods. Christianty certainly existed after the dissolution of the western Empire, but with that dissolution came an almost complete end to church power.

But anywa, to get this train back on the rails....

It's really sad that people would stoop to these measures to protect their fragile psyches. Isn't the best way to uphold your beliefs the ability to successfully defend them, at least in your mind, from competing systems? Competition is your friend.


Title: Re: Science is the Devil!
Post by: voodoolily on March 23, 2005, 03:05:18 PM
If their god is so omnipotent, why do they think he needs their help? I mean, is god really threatened by any of this? Why are they? If your entire belief system gets rattled so easily, shouldn't you question its foundation?


Title: Re: Science is the Devil!
Post by: stray on March 23, 2005, 03:06:20 PM
If your entire belief system gets rattled so easily, shouldn't you question its foundation?

No, they should just question their "faith".

edit: Or maybe I should rephrase that -- They should question their ability to have faith. I think many of them will find that they don't believe so much in God as they do in power and control.

They have no faith at all if they feel the need to silence opposing views.


Title: Re: Science is the Devil!
Post by: Murgos on March 23, 2005, 04:25:22 PM
They believe because most of them are afraid that if they don't the big inviso-daddy will spank.

You get told something often enough and forcefully enough as a child with huge absolutely horrible threats hanging over it (You will burn in a lake of fire anyone?) by people everyone you know treats with respect and it tends to be hard to to reestablish critical thought.


Title: Re: Science is the Devil!
Post by: SirBruce on March 23, 2005, 08:07:19 PM
See, the problem I have with this attitude is not so much the creationism vs. evolutionism debate itself; rather, it's people who are closeminded and have no interest in hearing another point of view.

So when are you going to be watching the "left behind" movies?

Bruce


Title: Re: Science is the Devil!
Post by: MaceVanHoffen on March 23, 2005, 09:58:57 PM
So when are you going to be watching the "left behind" movies?

I've never heard of those movies, but I read stuff on both sides of the fence.  Intelligent Design, Fractal Evolution ... I've got fringe books from both extremes.  Probably for the same reason that, despite not having any desire to seek a life of heavy drug use, I read HST and Phillip K. Dick.  I like knowing what makes people tick, I guess.


Title: Re: Science is the Devil!
Post by: SirBruce on March 23, 2005, 10:15:27 PM
Well, it doesn't directly relate to creationism, but "Left Behind" is a series of popular Christian novels (http://www.leftbehind.com/) about the apocolyptic end times and the people who get "left behind" on Earth after The Rapture.  It's also being made into a series of movies. (http://cloudtenpictures.com/)

I believe you're trying to analogize that, since these creationists don't want to see a movie that includes evolution in it, that they are shutting themselve out of being exposed to evolution entirely.  You counter that you, on the other hand, have read books about creationism.

However, I would argue that's not analogous, as I'm sure many creationists have read books that include evolution in them.  The issue is whether or not they will go see a movie with such themes in it, and what is financially a smart move for theatre owners and the like.  Thus, I would say for your position to truly be reciprocal, you must be willing to go see movies with creationism in them.  I was being a bit comical about the "Left Behind" series, but there aren't a lot of biblical epics produced in mainstream Hollywood today.  I suppose you've seen The Passion of the Christ, as well as classics such as The Ten Commandments and The Greatest Story Ever Told.

Bruce


Title: Re: Science is the Devil!
Post by: AOFanboi on March 24, 2005, 03:07:40 AM
Here's (http://valarguild.org/varda/Tolkien/encyc/) what you say when an apparent religious "salesman" want to tell you about creationism:

"Oh, I know all about that. Eru Illuvatar created the Ainur from his thoughts. They are the powerful Valar and the less powerful Maiar, who were sheperds for the Children of Illuvatar. The Ainur then sang the world into existence."

Remember to stare fixedly at a point above their left shoulder as you speak.

If this causes them to yell something about Satan to you, that is a cue for you to lecture them about Melkor/Morgoth and his lieutenant Sauron. If they don't flee then, start talking about the roles and powers belonging to each of the Ainur. In detail.


Title: Re: Science is the Devil!
Post by: Tebonas on March 24, 2005, 03:48:15 AM
The seventeenth century called. Giving clergy the power to decide over science doesn't work. I heard Galileo Galilei is spinning in his grave right now.


Title: Re: Science is the Devil!
Post by: Paelos on March 24, 2005, 06:56:43 AM
The seventeenth century called. Giving clergy the power to decide over science doesn't work. I heard Galileo Galilei is spinning in his grave right now.

Present day called, the clergy ain't deciding diddly-shit. This is the people collective and their weird viewpoints about science in general.


Title: Re: Science is the Devil!
Post by: Sky on March 24, 2005, 07:03:22 AM
Quote
You will burn in a lake of fire anyone?
I knew a lady who came from Duluth
She got bit by a dog with a rabid tooth
She went to her grave just a little too soon
And she flew away howling on the yellow moon


Title: Re: Science is the Devil!
Post by: voodoolily on March 24, 2005, 09:18:46 AM
However, I would argue that's not analogous, as I'm sure many creationists have read books that include evolution in them.  The issue is whether or not they will go see a movie with such themes in it, and what is financially a smart move for theatre owners and the like. 

Whether or not creationists would see a movie that includes evolutionary biology is moot. The point is that because of the power that religion has in the south, now NO ONE can see the movie.


Title: Re: Science is the Devil!
Post by: Paelos on March 24, 2005, 09:40:54 AM
Try and remember that these people are on the fringe and they are just loud. The rest of us don't care enough about an IMAX movie to stop them.


Title: Re: Science is the Devil!
Post by: Strazos on March 24, 2005, 09:53:27 AM
But how about a regular feature film?


Title: Re: Science is the Devil!
Post by: Paelos on March 24, 2005, 09:55:01 AM
But how about a regular feature film?

AFAIK it's never come up. But I wouldn't imagine they could stop it because the demand would beat out any boycott.


Title: Re: Science is the Devil!
Post by: Strazos on March 24, 2005, 10:01:39 AM
I was referring to...

The rest of us don't care enough about an IMAX movie to stop them.


Title: Re: Science is the Devil!
Post by: Paelos on March 24, 2005, 10:12:58 AM
I was referring to...

The rest of us don't care enough about an IMAX movie to stop them.

I'm confused, did I not answer that? IMAX really isn't that huge in Atlanta, so I don't think people even know about this. I've only heard it mentioned here. I think trying to remove a feature film would make more waves, and you'd get the regular people to come and say, "WTF are you doing?"


Title: Re: Science is the Devil!
Post by: voodoolily on March 24, 2005, 10:16:51 AM
Yeah, they only show them in science museums that are pretty kiddie-oriented. Although films like Baraka and that 'birds flying around' (whatevs) movie, however corny, are breath-taking on IMAX film. Too bad they don't shoot more films on it.


Title: Re: Science is the Devil!
Post by: Strazos on March 24, 2005, 10:33:28 AM
I was referring to...

The rest of us don't care enough about an IMAX movie to stop them.

I'm confused, did I not answer that? IMAX really isn't that huge in Atlanta, so I don't think people even know about this. I've only heard it mentioned here. I think trying to remove a feature film would make more waves, and you'd get the regular people to come and say, "WTF are you doing?"

I was asking for your personal opinion...

I think.


Title: Re: Science is the Devil!
Post by: Paelos on March 24, 2005, 10:43:24 AM
I don't go to the theatres much, but if they tried to ban something like Harry Potter because HE'S TEACHING OUR KIDS TO WORSHIP THE DEVIL, I'd see it 10 times.


Title: Re: Science is the Devil!
Post by: SirBruce on March 24, 2005, 11:18:02 AM
However, I would argue that's not analogous, as I'm sure many creationists have read books that include evolution in them.  The issue is whether or not they will go see a movie with such themes in it, and what is financially a smart move for theatre owners and the like. 

Whether or not creationists would see a movie that includes evolutionary biology is moot. The point is that because of the power that religion has in the south, now NO ONE can see the movie.

Yes, and the power of taste is so strong where I live, I can't see Bob's Student Film in my local theatre, either.  What's your point?  The religious types didn't protest and get this movie "removed" that people wanted to see.  This movie isn't being shown because not enough people will want to see it to make it worth the theatre owner's time.  It's called Capitalism.

Bruce


Title: Re: Science is the Devil!
Post by: voodoolily on March 24, 2005, 11:58:15 AM
However, I would argue that's not analogous, as I'm sure many creationists have read books that include evolution in them.  The issue is whether or not they will go see a movie with such themes in it, and what is financially a smart move for theatre owners and the like. 

Whether or not creationists would see a movie that includes evolutionary biology is moot. The point is that because of the power that religion has in the south, now NO ONE can see the movie.

Yes, and the power of taste is so strong where I live, I can't see Bob's Student Film in my local theatre, either.  What's your point?  The religious types didn't protest and get this movie "removed" that people wanted to see.  This movie isn't being shown because not enough people will want to see it to make it worth the theatre owner's time.  It's called Capitalism.

Bruce


My point is that enterprises can and do fail on their own all the time without the help of fanatics getting a wild hair up their ass to put a stop to something with which they don't agree. In this case, the theaters just saved them the time. If it were not for the tendency for fundies to have a fucking seizure anytime some non-Christian idea is presented, the theaters (or thinking people) wouldn't have this quandary to begin with.


Title: Re: Science is the Devil!
Post by: Furiously on March 24, 2005, 12:16:19 PM
See, the problem I have with this attitude is not so much the creationism vs. evolutionism debate itself; rather, it's people who are closeminded and have no interest in hearing another point of view.

So when are you going to be watching the "left behind" movies?

Bruce


I plan on living them!


Title: Re: Science is the Devil!
Post by: Fargull on March 24, 2005, 12:40:34 PM
Hmm.. I was living in the 'South' when Jurassic Park was released, and wouldn't you know that has Dinosaurs and actually dialogue revolving around evolution.  Course, this was before the fundimental movement in the current positions of power.


Title: Re: Science is the Devil!
Post by: Mesozoic on March 24, 2005, 01:04:02 PM
Christians who fixate on evolution are like kids who play with the box their Christmas gift came in.  Earth is  - more or less  - simply the setting for the gift of salvation.  How we got here is trivial compared to what we do with our time. 


Title: Re: Science is the Devil!
Post by: voodoolily on March 24, 2005, 01:21:13 PM
Earth is  - more or less  - simply the setting for the gift of salvation. 

Whaaaa.....?

Yeah, hopefully salvation from god's followers.


Title: Re: Science is the Devil!
Post by: Sky on March 24, 2005, 01:30:18 PM
Quote
I plan on living them!
Although I don't pray...I do make an exception and pray to the jewish/christian god for one thing, and that's the friggin' rapture.

I'll be dancing in the streets thinking about stem cell research, open minded national discussions, peace in the middle east, buying beer on sunday morning, and more things than I can possibly think of and list.

Please, hurry that shit along. Sorry we'll miss some of you more normal folks. You can always give up your silly ways and stay behind with us, we won't cast you out because of your beliefs ;)
Quote
Hmm.. I was living in the 'South' when Jurassic Park was released, and wouldn't you know that has Dinosaurs and actually dialogue revolving around evolution.  Course, this was before the fundimental movement in the current positions of power.
Didn't I hear once that some fundy wackos claim dinosaur bones are a hoax perpetrated by scientists?

They should have more vision and claim it's the bones of gay reptiles or something.


Title: Re: Science is the Devil!
Post by: voodoolily on March 24, 2005, 01:36:16 PM
it's the bones of gay reptiles or something.

ba ba da ding! *does air-drum* get it? bones of gay reptiles? Oh, never mind.


Title: Re: Science is the Devil!
Post by: WayAbvPar on March 24, 2005, 01:44:08 PM
Buy the DVD (http://protect.bju.edu/cstore/product_info.php?cPath=50_64&products_id=12894)

I almost couldn't finish typing this post with my eyes rolling back in my head this far. Owwie!


Title: Re: Science is the Devil!
Post by: voodoolily on March 24, 2005, 01:46:49 PM
Oh, The Jesus. It's your fault for starting this thread! Do you mind if I call you The Jesus?


Title: Re: Science is the Devil!
Post by: Fargull on March 24, 2005, 02:56:27 PM
Didn't I hear once that some fundy wackos claim dinosaur bones are a hoax perpetrated by scientists?

They should have more vision and claim it's the bones of gay reptiles or something.

Yepper.  Here is the Linkage (http://www.time.com/time/columnist/jaroff/article/0,9565,783829,00.html)

Which of course adds in this nice bit of spice. (http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intelreport/article.jsp?aid=485) Which by the way, Pensacola is my high school home town, so unfortunately I have first hand knowledge that the gene/creationist pool is that shallow....

But fortunately this was my weekend distraction from the fundie nuts... The Beach (http://www.visitpensacolabeach.com/)


Title: Re: Science is the Devil!
Post by: HaemishM on March 24, 2005, 03:02:40 PM
Which of course adds in this nice bit of spice. (http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intelreport/article.jsp?aid=485) Which by the way, Pensacola is my high school home town, so unfortunately I have first hand knowledge that the gene/creationist pool is that shallow...

Jay-sus.

Quote
Not only does the former public-school science teacher claim the Earth was literally created in six days about 6,000 years ago, he also asserts that the first humans grew as tall as 14 feet and could live until age 900.

Super giants 4tehwinz? WTF?

I mean, I can understand not wanting evolution to be true, despite lots of evidence that is indeed, very scientifically plausible. But isn't this akin to saying the fucking Earth is flat?


Title: Re: Science is the Devil!
Post by: WayAbvPar on March 24, 2005, 03:16:22 PM
Double post demons! Get me a priest, stat!


Title: Re: Science is the Devil!
Post by: WayAbvPar on March 24, 2005, 03:17:00 PM
From the link about the theme park-
Quote
"Some people," the guide says, "don't believe until they come and see the evidence for themselves."

And then they believe that the purveyors of this nonsense are bugfucking crazy.  I can seriously see the Flanders family whiling away carefree afternoons there.


Title: Re: Science is the Devil!
Post by: SirBruce on March 24, 2005, 04:23:37 PM
Super giants 4tehwinz? WTF?

I mean, I can understand not wanting evolution to be true, despite lots of evidence that is indeed, very scientifically plausible. But isn't this akin to saying the fucking Earth is flat?

Dude, haven't you ever read the Bible?  It's right there in black and white:

Quote from: Genesis 4:1-4 (NIV)
1 When men began to increase in number on the earth and daughters were born to them, 2 the sons of God saw that the daughters of men were beautiful, and they married any of them they chose. 3 Then the LORD said, "My Spirit will not contend with man forever, for he is mortal ; his days will be a hundred and twenty years." 4 The Nephilim were on the earth in those days-and also afterward-when the sons of God went to the daughters of men and had children by them. They were the heroes of old, men of renown.

Nephilim is Hebrew for "giant" which you will find in the KJV.  Not to mention, you know, Goliath.

For a further examination of the subject:
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=42637

Bruce


Title: Re: Science is the Devil!
Post by: stray on March 24, 2005, 04:35:25 PM
Super giants 4tehwinz? WTF?

I mean, I can understand not wanting evolution to be true, despite lots of evidence that is indeed, very scientifically plausible. But isn't this akin to saying the fucking Earth is flat?

Dude, haven't you ever read the Bible?  It's right there in black and white:

Quote from: Genesis 4:1-4 (NIV)
1 When men began to increase in number on the earth and daughters were born to them, 2 the sons of God saw that the daughters of men were beautiful, and they married any of them they chose. 3 Then the LORD said, "My Spirit will not contend with man forever, for he is mortal ; his days will be a hundred and twenty years." 4 The Nephilim were on the earth in those days-and also afterward-when the sons of God went to the daughters of men and had children by them. They were the heroes of old, men of renown.

Nephilim is Hebrew for "giant" which you will find in the KJV.  Not to mention, you know, Goliath.

For a further examination of the subject:
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=42637

Bruce


I don't think that teacher is talking about the Nephillim though (which have nothing to do with "creationism"). Some creationists believe that with a "fresh" earth (less contaminants, purer oxygen, etc.., etc.), human beings were bigger, stronger, and lived 10x as long as the humans of today.

Although "14 feet" is a new one to me. I've never heard any of them throw out that number before. My guess is that this guy is an all new and improved, doubly retarded form of creationist than the ones we are familiar with. He's mixed up the Nephillims along with the Adam and Eve story....They're completely different things.

Even God is laughing at this one.


Title: Re: Science is the Devil!
Post by: SirBruce on March 24, 2005, 06:04:02 PM
A little googling dug up this link (http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/ce/3/part2.html) which includes the following near the bottom:

Quote
Perhaps I shouldn't be so hard on Baugh's search for "human giants" in Glen Rose, Texas. He's merely picked up where earlier, less astute, creationists left off. It was those earlier creationists in Texas who imagined that some of the dinosaur trails were made by giant human beings. According to Cecil Dougherty, author of Valley of the Giants (Valley of the Giants Publishers, first edition, 1971), Adam (the first man) was 16 feet tall! King Og (whose bed according to the Bible was 14 ft. by 6 ft.) was 14 feet tall! Noah was 12 feet tall, Goliath was over 9 feet tall, and modern man is 6 feet tall.

Please note that the mere mention in the Bible that "King Og's bed" was "14 ft. long and 6 feet wide," even if the story is true, is not the same as saying that King Og was exactly that tall and that wide! It only says that his bed was. (Maybe he had a lot of wives, like Solomon!?)

As for Noah's height of "12 ft. tall, and Adam's height of "16 ft. tall," I know of no references to either Noah's or Adam's "height" in the Bible.

Perhaps Dougherty, like many Bible believing creationists before him, obtained the idea of "giants in those days" from Genesis 6:4, which reads: "The Nephilim (which many Bibles translate as 'giants' or cite in a footnote at the bottom of the page as 'giants') were on the earth in those days ...

The trouble is that the Bible does not depict Adam as one of the "Nephilim" (or giants). It just depicts Adam as an average-sized human for his day and age. So if Adam and his descendants were "on average" "16 foot tall" as Dougherty believes, then how tall was a "Nephilim/giant" back then? Whew! "Giant " must have been unbelievably tall if the first average-sized human was created 16 feet tall!

Of course, the 'Book of Enoch, verses, 7:1-4 (in a section of the Book of Enoch dated to about 250 B.C.B.) explains that the "giants" mentioned in Genesis 6:4 were 300 cubits (or about 450 feet) tall! So I guess the ancient authors of the Book of Enoch answered my question regarding how tall a giant" must have been back then!

Of course, Bible believers have believed in the existence of "giants" for a long time, since the Bible tells them so.

In 1663 a French Academy paper by, a noted scholar of the Ancient Near East argued that Adam was 140 feet tall, Noah was 50 feet tall, Abraham was 40 feet tall, and Moses was 25 feet tall! (from The Best Worst & Most Unusual by Felton & Fowler, Gallahad Books, 1994)

And, Cotton Mather (1663-1728), an early American clergyman and writer, seems to have been enamoured of the idea. See the article, "Giants in the Earth: Science and the Occult in Cotton Mather's Letters to the Royal Society" by David Levin (William and Mary Quarterly, Vol. 45, Oct. 1988, p. 751-770).

Bruce


Title: Re: Science is the Devil!
Post by: stray on March 24, 2005, 06:18:23 PM
A little googling dug up this link (http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/ce/3/part2.html) which includes the following near the bottom:

The trouble is that the Bible does not depict Adam as one of the "Nephilim" (or giants). It just depicts Adam as an average-sized human for his day and age. So if Adam and his descendants were "on average" "16 foot tall" as Dougherty believes, then how tall was a "Nephilim/giant" back then? Whew! "Giant " must have been unbelievably tall if the first average-sized human was created 16 feet tall!

And that would be the main point against it. Plus, there's just all kinds of little verses scattered across Genesis that give you a sense of the scale and size that the humans were back then. They were no different than modern human beings. They ate "grapes", tended to "sheep", hunted with "arrows", rode on "horseback", etc., etc.. Were all these things "giant" too?  :roll:

Geez, sometimes I think that the people who spout this kind of crap actually have some other motive. They're so idiotic that I think it may just be an elaborate act. Like it's some scheme to make the subject material look as stupid as possible.

edit: I mean, what's this guy's story anyway? How did he get to that state of mind? How is it even possible to be that stupid?

The only thing I ever lose faith in is humanity. Not God.


Title: Re: Science is the Devil!
Post by: HaemishM on March 24, 2005, 08:55:03 PM
You know, I've read some of the Bible. I've certainly read Genesis, King James Version. Granted, it was when I was younger, say around 10 or so, and I sure as fuck don't ever remember the word GIANT in them anywhere (or Nephilim either but that's an easy one to forget). I'm pretty sure that had I read that there were OMGZ GIANTZ in the Bible, at 10 years old, loving comics and fantasy stuff, I'd have remembered.

What fucking Bible are you guys reading from?


Title: Re: Science is the Devil!
Post by: stray on March 24, 2005, 09:21:21 PM
You know, I've read some of the Bible. I've certainly read Genesis, King James Version. Granted, it was when I was younger, say around 10 or so, and I sure as fuck don't ever remember the word GIANT in them anywhere (or Nephilim either but that's an easy one to forget). I'm pretty sure that had I read that there were OMGZ GIANTZ in the Bible, at 10 years old, loving comics and fantasy stuff, I'd have remembered.

What fucking Bible are you guys reading from?

Any one of them. It's tied in with the Noah story (Gen 6:4).

It mentions that a group of angels (Not the one lead by Lucifer. This would be a second, smaller group.) came down to earth, mated with human females, and had offspring that were described as "the mighty men of old, the men of renown". They're referred to as the "Nephilim" (the word itself means "those who have fallen"). The Bible itself only mentions this part of the Noah story once, in one small verse, so it's understandable if people haven't heard of it.

As for the "giant" thing: In some verses scattered throughout the rest of the Bible, and in non-biblical literature from the region and times, they're described as "giants".

Some scholars believe "giant" is a misnomer though, and that the words used in the all of these texts can also be translated as "mighty" (which makes sense, since the Genesis verse describes them only in that way). Either way, these Nephilim aren't "normal" human beings either. They're supposed to be some kind of angel/human crossbreed race. In various texts they're always described as legendary warriors as well. Giant or not, apparently, they kicked an extreme amount of ass.

Anyways, there's more in the Book of Enoch (which is an apocryphal book and not in the Bible). The story begins with 200 angels, led by the angel Semjaza, who were originally sent to earth by God to "instruct men in rightousness". When they got here however, they fell in lust with women. After that, they...umm...decided to "extend" their stay.

They had offspring, the Nephilim, who along with them, dominated the earth. The angels were worshipped as gods by the human race, and their offspring were appointed as rulers and kings. The book also briefly describes what they were teaching and revealing to mankind (everything from magic, "secret" sciences, weaponry, and the like). The book ends with them being taken into captivity to await their final judgement at the end of time.

After Semjaza and the rest of the group were banished, the story of Noah picks up from there. The very reason why the God of the Bible was going to destroy the world with a flood was to undo the work of the angels and the Nephilim. Because of them, the human race had been corrupted like never before or since. And because of that, the only option God considered was that he had to destroy the entire human race.

Except for one man: Noah....And of course, we all know how the story goes from there (Yet, later on, there is a interesting thing involving one of his sons, but I won't get into that).

edit: Added a bit more. Hope that helps.


Title: Re: Science is the Devil!
Post by: SirBruce on March 25, 2005, 03:24:41 AM
From a religious standpoint it makes a lot of sense.  Every culture had legends of heroic and God-like men in their past, if not in their present, and the Jews had to have an explanation for who these people actually were and where they came from

Bruce


Title: Re: Science is the Devil!
Post by: Jeff Kelly on March 25, 2005, 03:50:52 AM
Try and remember that these people are on the fringe and they are just loud. The rest of us don't care enough about an IMAX movie to stop them.

You may deem them fringe, but they aren't. They have the power to stop fucking movies from being shown, they have the power to stop schoolbooks mentioning evolution from being used in schools. They have the power to lobby the president to spend several hundred millions on sexual abstinence campaigns while cutting down spending on sex education. They show up on every fucking discussion programme if the topics are religion, religious related or if they have an agenda about it. If they are fringe then they have a very excellent PR department.

I don't get the attitude by the way. "Well they just dealt a blow to free speech but I don't care cause its just an IMAX movie". They have just gained slightly more power and have moved even farther mainstream in the public view by achieving this ban. They will use their leverage next time to attack a bigger target.

By "not caring" you just agree with the outcome whatever it might be just like by not voting you agree with the outcome of an election whatever it might be. It puzzles me that everybody here says these people are fringe and basically loonies but that on the other hand they have shaped your countries views and values to a certain extend in the last few years and there seems to be virtually no opposition to it.

Jeff


Title: Re: Science is the Devil!
Post by: Paelos on March 25, 2005, 06:41:00 AM
Try and remember that these people are on the fringe and they are just loud. The rest of us don't care enough about an IMAX movie to stop them.

You may deem them fringe, but they aren't. They have the power to stop fucking movies from being shown, they have the power to stop schoolbooks mentioning evolution from being used in schools. They have the power to lobby the president to spend several hundred millions on sexual abstinence campaigns while cutting down spending on sex education. They show up on every fucking discussion programme if the topics are religion, religious related or if they have an agenda about it. If they are fringe then they have a very excellent PR department.

I don't get the attitude by the way. "Well they just dealt a blow to free speech but I don't care cause its just an IMAX movie". They have just gained slightly more power and have moved even farther mainstream in the public view by achieving this ban. They will use their leverage next time to attack a bigger target.

By "not caring" you just agree with the outcome whatever it might be just like by not voting you agree with the outcome of an election whatever it might be. It puzzles me that everybody here says these people are fringe and basically loonies but that on the other hand they have shaped your countries views and values to a certain extend in the last few years and there seems to be virtually no opposition to it.

Jeff

That was a nice little speech, muffled only by the sound of your head up your ass. First, they ARE the fringe, but the squeaky wheels get the grease. They bitch and bitch and bitch until people try to shut them up. That's the way EVERY SINGLE INTEREST GROUP in our country operates. For everytime I see on fundy whacko on a news show, I see another black whacko, hippy whacko, and hitler youth whacko to beat the band. Blame the system if you want.

Second, as far as, they've dealt a blow to free speech, blah blah blah. Again, it's an IMAX movie. This made absolutely no press waves anywhere in my major city. ZERO. They aren't mainstream, and if they tried anything of consequence, they'd get a hearty smackdown. There is no slippery slope here of them leveraging whatever to get their way.

As far as them shaping our countries values, um, not exactly. Last time I checked there is still a pretty vehement struggle over anything and everything directly related to government and religion. The Ten Commandments aren't sitting in courthouses as one example. They aren't winning the major blows that they claim or that people want to believe. Roe vs. Wade still exists, there is no school prayer, and the FCC is a bigger problem right now than the fundy right on free speech. Quit claiming they've won some massive war on society or something over a movie most people wouldn't even see on a bet.


Title: Re: Science is the Devil!
Post by: Sky on March 25, 2005, 07:02:42 AM
Quote
Every culture had legends of heroic and God-like men in their past, if not in their present, and the Jews had to have an explanation for who these people actually were and where they came from
That was the most accurate description of the Bible I've ever heard, Bruce. Excellent.

But I'm sticking with the Stargate. About the same amount of evidence all the way around.


Title: Re: Science is the Devil!
Post by: SirBruce on March 25, 2005, 08:59:08 AM
Artist: The New Main Street Singers
Song: The Good Book Song

Oh yeah, yeah yeah
Now God said to Noah
"I don't want no sinnin'"
Oh yeah, yeah yeah
"I've been telling you this since 'In the beginnin'"
Oh yeah, yeah yeah
"You gotta round up your sons and all of their women"
Oh yeah, yeah yeah
"Because you're going on a big boat ride

Now gather all the animals by the pair
Build a big ship about a million square
And put all the animals right in there
And sail away on the tide"

But what if Noah
Had just said "No sir"
Well we'd all have fins and scaly skins
We'd breathe through gills instead of nostrils
And we'd eat fish food instead of vitamin pills

It's scary but it's true,
So do what the good book,
Do what the good book,
Do what the good book tells you to
Oh yeah, yeah yeah

Oh yeah, yeah yeah
Now God said to David, "Do you hear that drummin'?"
Oh yeah, yeah yeah
"You gotta great big Philistine army comin'"
Oh yeah, yeah yeah
"You wanna oil up your sling and really get it hummin'"
Oh yeah, yeah yeah
"Because you're gunna take the big guy down"

Well David got a dose of frights
But he wanted to be King of the Isrealites
So he put old Goliath right in his sights
And he bounced one off of his crown

But what if David, had whined and waited
We'd live like slaves to Philistine naves,
Our bosses would all be 30 feet tall
We'd wash their clothes with a fire hose
And we'd sleep in the cracks between their toes

It's scary but it's true,
And if I were you,
I'd do what the good book,
Do what the good book,
Do what the good book tells me to
Oh yeah, yeah yeah
Do what the good book tells me to
Oh yeah, yeah yeah
Do what the good book tells me to!

Bruce


Title: Re: Science is the Devil!
Post by: Johny Cee on March 25, 2005, 09:07:23 AM
The seventeenth century called. Giving clergy the power to decide over science doesn't work. I heard Galileo Galilei is spinning in his grave right now.

Galileo got into trouble for politics more than science.  Science was just the technicality the Church used to shut him down. 


Title: Re: Science is the Devil!
Post by: Fargull on March 25, 2005, 09:12:47 AM
Hmm...

Jim Morrison : About as good a religious base as anyone else...

I will never treat you mean
Never start no kind of scene
I'll tell you every place and person that I've been.
Always a playground instructor, never a killer
Always a bridesmaid on the verge of fame or over
He manouvered two girls into his hotel room
One a friend, the other, the young one, a newer stranger
Vaguely Mexican or Puerto Rican
Poor boys thighs and buttock scarred by a father's belt
She's trying to rie
Story of her boyfriend, of teenage stoned death games
Handsome lad, dead in a car
Confusion
No connections
Come here
I love you
Peace on earth
Will you die for me?
Eat me
This way
The end
I'll always be true
Never go out, sneaking out on you, babe
If you'll only show me Far Arden again.
I'm surprised you could get it up He whips her lightly, sardonically, with belt. Haven't I been through enough? she asks Now dressed and leaving The Spanish girl begins to bleed She says her period It's Catholic heaven I have an ancient Indian crucifix around my neck My chest is hard and brown Lying on stained, wretched sheets with a bleeding virgin We could plan a murder Or start a religion.



Title: Re: Science is the Devil!
Post by: Johny Cee on March 25, 2005, 09:20:41 AM
Try and remember that these people are on the fringe and they are just loud. The rest of us don't care enough about an IMAX movie to stop them.

You may deem them fringe, but they aren't. They have the power to stop fucking movies from being shown, they have the power to stop schoolbooks mentioning evolution from being used in schools. They have the power to lobby the president to spend several hundred millions on sexual abstinence campaigns while cutting down spending on sex education. They show up on every fucking discussion programme if the topics are religion, religious related or if they have an agenda about it. If they are fringe then they have a very excellent PR department.

I don't get the attitude by the way. "Well they just dealt a blow to free speech but I don't care cause its just an IMAX movie". They have just gained slightly more power and have moved even farther mainstream in the public view by achieving this ban. They will use their leverage next time to attack a bigger target.

By "not caring" you just agree with the outcome whatever it might be just like by not voting you agree with the outcome of an election whatever it might be. It puzzles me that everybody here says these people are fringe and basically loonies but that on the other hand they have shaped your countries views and values to a certain extend in the last few years and there seems to be virtually no opposition to it.

Jeff

They didn't stop shit.  Theaters pulled it because they didn't think the increased costs of a slightly controversial film by local standards was greater than revenue.  As Paelos said, capitalism at work.

For this same reason, you won't see lauding biopics of Sherman in the South,  Pro-life films in Manhattan, negative portrayals of the Irish in Boston, etc. etc. etc.

It pays for private businesses to cater to the local populaces' prejudices and predilections.  Pure and simple.



Title: Re: Science is the Devil!
Post by: Shockeye on March 25, 2005, 09:25:48 AM
Quote from: Bruce McCulloch
The Bible

I read the bible
I highlight what's important
I highlight the whole thing
It really is a good book

I think there's more truth in here
than a phone book
I think all of it is true
except the part that says God exists

(he loves that great old book)

It's funnier than
a far side cartoon

Like religion
it gives dumb people something to do (something to do)
that isn't scratching lottery tickets
It's sorta the same thing

(he likes religion)

Whenever I walk into a church
all I ever tend to think is
what a great apartment this would make!

(wow)

In case you want to read it
I won't tell you how it ends


Title: Re: Science is the Devil!
Post by: tazelbain on March 25, 2005, 11:18:02 AM
A good creationist shouldn't be watching a movie on volcanoes, even if there was no mention of evolution.  It still preaches Techtonic Plate Theory and the Princple of Uniformity among other crack-pot ideas.


Title: Re: Science is the Devil!
Post by: WayAbvPar on March 25, 2005, 11:20:36 AM
A good creationist shouldn't be watching a movie on volcanoes, even if there was no mention of evolution.  It still preaches Techtonic Plate Theory and the Princple of Uniformity among other crack-pot ideas.

That is crazy talk, heathen!


Title: Re: Science is the Devil!
Post by: Stephen Zepp on March 25, 2005, 07:08:28 PM
There is a really interesting science fiction story called "Calculating God" (Snyopsis Here (http://sites.inka.de/sites/darwin/books/stuv/calculating_god.html) by Robert J. Sawyer that is themed around Intelligent Design, but approaches it from an absolutely agnostic point of view. I've read it about 5 times and I still haven't been able to decide if it was a religious, scientific, or none of the above argument...very interesting story!


Title: Re: Science is the Devil!
Post by: AOFanboi on March 26, 2005, 12:36:23 AM
A good creationist shouldn't be watching a movie on volcanoes, even if there was no mention of evolution.  It still preaches Techtonic Plate Theory and the Princple of Uniformity among other crack-pot ideas.
They're too busy reading this book (http://www.chick.com/catalog/books/1250.asp) anyway.


Title: Re: Science is the Devil!
Post by: schild on March 26, 2005, 12:40:33 AM
They're too busy reading this book (http://www.chick.com/catalog/books/1250.asp) anyway.

Quote
Chapter 5 - Vestigial Organs, Evolution's Leftovers?
                    Downhill Evolution
                    The Appendix
                    Scalp and Ear Muscles
                    Where Did New Organs Come From?
                    New Animals and Endangered Species

I'd kill to read "Where did new organs come from?" It might be funnier than Carlin's Brain Droppings. But probably not. Extreme religious people continue to freak me out.


Title: Re: Science is the Devil!
Post by: Abagadro on March 26, 2005, 02:16:06 AM
Ahhh Chick.  His Dungeons and Dragons (http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0046/0046_01.asp) tracts gives me a chuckle every time I read it.

NO, NOT BLACKLEAF!!!!!!


Title: Re: Science is the Devil!
Post by: WayAbvPar on March 28, 2005, 01:01:37 PM
More Church insanity (http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/Health/story?id=617257&page=1).

Eat the wafer and suffer like a good Catholic.

I hate to offend, but how can anyone take the Catholic church seriously any more? Their practices and dogma were keen 1000 years ago, but they just aren't keeping up with modern times so well.


Title: Re: Science is the Devil!
Post by: Shockeye on March 28, 2005, 01:25:38 PM
Quote
In a statement released to ABC News, the Diocese of Trenton, said, "Bread, to be valid matter for the eucharist, must be made solely of wheat."

The Roman Catholic Church is outdated, out of touch, and out of their minds.

It isn't about what it's made out of. It could be made out of pig shit for all that matters. Once it becomes the body of Christ, it no longer is anything but the body of Christ. To think that God would prevent the transformation due to the fact it isn't wheat because wheat would kill this girl, is to believe in a God that doesn't believe in mercy. But then, the Church isn't about mercy. It's about money and power.

Fuck the Catholic Church.


Title: Re: Science is the Devil!
Post by: SirBruce on March 28, 2005, 03:06:26 PM
This isn't new.  Catholics have been dealing with the issue of gluten-free and wheat-free wafers for years:

http://www.livingwithout.com/feature_WheatFreeWorship.htm

Bruce


Title: Re: Science is the Devil!
Post by: Sky on March 28, 2005, 04:04:08 PM
If the wheat content of a wafer decides the fate of your eternal soul....you might be a catholic.

Hey, Foxworthy's got a whole new bag!


Title: Re: Science is the Devil!
Post by: voodoolily on March 28, 2005, 04:54:11 PM
God, has anyone seen the Pope lately? Would Yuna just send that guy already?


Title: Re: Science is the Devil!
Post by: Daeven on March 29, 2005, 07:51:57 AM
See, the problem I have with this attitude is not so much the creationism vs. evolutionism debate itself; rather, it's people who are closeminded and have no interest in hearing another point of view.  Even further, they seem interested in stopping the other point of view from having a voice, though that's really a larger issue.  People on both sides of the creationism/evolutionism debate have the problem.  In fact, it's really a general problem with almost any polarizing debate humans ever take part in.
That's nice. You see, there is this concept knows as ‘non-falsifiable’. In other words, a hypothesis should be discarded if no test case that would disprove it can be formulated. In order to rationally discuss the issue one must be able to frame it in a disprovable manner.

Creationism is non-falsifiable. It literally cannot be disproved.

Come up with a hypothesis that has actual negative test cases and I’ll as open minded as you can possibly imagine. But come at me with something about how Zeus shat out a camel and thus begat photosynthesis, and I’ll back away. Verrrry slowly.


Title: Re: Science is the Devil!
Post by: voodoolily on March 29, 2005, 09:35:27 AM
Yeah, I hafta agree. Most atheists I know (including myself) aren't just nihilists, they're materialists. The vast majority (all?) of evidence points to no leprechauns, no unicorns, and no god. I know, some may counter with the question of what is acceptable evidence, but I think most would agree that hearsay and a 2000-year old document don't really make for very concrete evidence.

I'd like to add that the Bible has gone through several translations which, btw, were called for by persons with political agendas. I don't think that most people who call themselves Christians can read Hebrew.


Title: Re: Science is the Devil!
Post by: Sky on March 29, 2005, 10:00:38 AM
That is an excellent point about the vast amount of revision work done on the bible (why would it ever need be revised or translated if it were the word of god...guess he ran out of miracle juice at some point, which might explain the penchant for Virgin Mary sightings on toast and potato chips rather than red sea parting these days).

I'm agnostic. I'm perfectly willing to admit there's a shitload mankind doesn't understand about the universe. But I draw the line at blind faith in a dubious book, because I'm a realist. I like to live in a world of facts and science. If anything, priests should be scientists working to discover the miracles god provided, science hasn't disproven the idea of a lifeform of the scale we could call a god, hell, the big bang theory in many ways supports the bible's creationism, so long as you don't take things too literally (heh).

But picking up Aesop's fables and trying to convince people that it's correct, and use it to discount proven scientific reality...that's a tough one. They are just fables, stories to maybe get a lesson from to help you be a better person. Nothing more. Really. And the ironic thing is, a whole hell of a lot of people miss that message, I seem to understand Jesus' mission better than the christians I come across (being brought up in a religious household with a bible study teacher might help, but note I'm agnostic, though I take the lessons taught to heart).


Title: Re: Science is the Devil!
Post by: Mortriden on March 29, 2005, 10:08:58 AM
I believe that is a common thing among any religion.  Look at all the different interpretations of the Muslim faith.  We only hear about some of the worst, but they are there (maybe we could compare Southern Baptists to Hamas?)


Title: Re: Science is the Devil!
Post by: stray on March 29, 2005, 11:16:15 AM
I'd like to add that the Bible has gone through several translations which, btw, were called for by persons with political agendas. I don't think that most people who call themselves Christians can read Hebrew.

I lost you....How are translations relevant here? Did you mean "revisions"?

If so, it's really a non issue. In fact, it's pretty amazing how much the original "text" is still in tact. There are very few variants passages and wordings between traditional scripts (Masoretic and Byzantine respectively) with the much older Dead Sea Scrolls and various 1st and 2nd century New Testament texts that were discovered in the 19th and 20th centuries --- Much to the dismay of those who doubted the authenticity of traditional "recieved" texts. They were hoping to find bigger differences in the older, newly discovered scrolls, but found that there was very little that they could really sink their teeth into.

Anyone who uses "revision" as an argument to doubt the integrity of the recieved texts has not done enough research on the matter. The variants found between different copies are fewer than those found in any other ancient text in existence (Cicero, Plato, Sophocles, or Caesar for example). Not only that, but the oldest known copies of the Biblical texts predate copies of most of the other ancient literary works by almost a thousand years (the oldest copies of Aritostle's writings are from 1100 A.D. for example).

Yet, even though they predate these by a millenium, they still hold up their reliability and integrity better. And the majority of the variants that do exist are either typos and changes in word order. There are very few instances of injected commentary.

Hell, the Bible has fewer variants than even Shakespeare -- and those writings benefited from the advent of the printing press!

Anyways, I'm not throwing this out to try to "justify" the worth of the biblical message or anything. But as far as the text itself goes, it has more reasons to be considered reliable than not.


Title: Re: Science is the Devil!
Post by: SirBruce on March 29, 2005, 11:34:16 AM
Actually, a far better argument in that vein can be made regarding what books of the Bible are considered valid, rather than on the specific texts of the books themselves.  And you must admit that there is plenty of disagreement on that, and there are quite a few more that existed in the early church.

Bruce


Title: Re: Science is the Devil!
Post by: Samwise on March 29, 2005, 11:55:48 AM
I think that'd be brought up much more often if the contents of newer/apocryphal/questionable books were cited with the same frequency that, say, Genesis is.


Title: Re: Science is the Devil!
Post by: voodoolily on March 29, 2005, 03:23:14 PM
I'd like to add that the Bible has gone through several translations which, btw, were called for by persons with political agendas. I don't think that most people who call themselves Christians can read Hebrew.

I lost you....How are translations relevant here? Did you mean "revisions"?


Ever hear of something being "lost in the translation"? How about the game of telephone (in case you haven't, it's where you whisper something to one person, they whisper to the next, etc. and when it gets around the circle it's a very different thing than was initally whipered)? I'm still saying that the Bible is a likely victim of telephone game and translation inaccuracies. Aside from the fact that revisions were politically driven. And I'd also question who did the research you're citing, and whether or not the findings had been published in a peer-reviewed journal, or are just being given as gospel.

The Bible is a piece of mythology. It documents the best explanation people had for significant (and sometimes not so significant) political, historic and geologic events at the time. Furthermore, it is my opinion that people for whom the Bible is the source of an entire ethos should know what it actually says. That is all.



Title: Re: Science is the Devil!
Post by: Samwise on March 29, 2005, 03:32:13 PM
Anecdotal evidence on the topic of things being lost in translation: my grandfather can read the New Testament in its original Greek, well enough to teach classes on it, though he failed in his attempts to get me to learn ancient Greek myself.  He's also even more curmudgeonly than I am, and loves nothing more than to rail on bad translations (don't get him started on the Divine Comedy).  I've never, not once, heard him gripe about English translations of the Bible.  That, to me, says a lot.


Title: Re: Science is the Devil!
Post by: Abagadro on March 29, 2005, 03:36:49 PM
Depends on the version. The King James Version is pretty lousy (ironically the one used by most thumpers). The New  American Version or the New Revised Standard Version are pretty good.


Title: Re: Science is the Devil!
Post by: Paelos on March 29, 2005, 03:42:45 PM
The Bible is a lot of things. Parables, Proverbs, Songs, and Commands. Jesus himself communicated mainly through stories. Nobody said Jesus was lying because he told a parable about the Prodigal Son. Was there such a son? Maybe, but it doesn't really matter. If the Bible didn't exist today, and God wanted to communicate with us, I would expect him to give us the same thing, stories. It's something that transcends time and gives us an idea of how to live.


Title: Re: Science is the Devil!
Post by: Abagadro on March 29, 2005, 03:44:12 PM
I thought God communicated with us through tortillas and grilled cheese sandwiches now.


Title: Re: Science is the Devil!
Post by: voodoolily on March 29, 2005, 03:45:29 PM
Yes, Paelos, but the problem is clearly not that the Bible is a collection of parables for which we find morals to guide us in our everyday lives. The problem is people quoting it as fact and using it to justify hateful actions.

Edit: I think oftentimes people fail to realize that the tenets of Christianity are nearly identical to those of other organized religions (at their core). This is a notion that I like to think strengthens the argument that (non-sociopathic) humans are already born with an internal "moral compass", regardless of faith in a god or devotion to a religion. I think humans already know right from wrong and are inclined to act on those gut feelings without the threat of eternal damnation. Or, maybe they really don't, and that's why some people need religion.


Title: Re: Science is the Devil!
Post by: Paelos on March 29, 2005, 03:48:46 PM
Yes, Paelos, but the problem is clearly not that the Bible is a collection of parables for which we find morals to guide us in our everyday lives. The problem is people quoting it as fact and using it to justify hateful actions.

Like God smote the gays in Sodom so we too should smite the gays? Yeah, people are idiots in all religions. Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.


Title: Re: Science is the Devil!
Post by: voodoolily on March 29, 2005, 03:51:23 PM
Yes, Paelos, but the problem is clearly not that the Bible is a collection of parables for which we find morals to guide us in our everyday lives. The problem is people quoting it as fact and using it to justify hateful actions.

Like God smote the gays in Sodom so we too should smite the gays? Yeah, people are idiots in all religions. Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.

I think a really funny movement (besides bowel, which is hilarious) would be to start a satyrical Old Testament movement. Like hold up signs that say "Spare the Rod, Spoil the Child" and "Rebellious Children Should be Stoned" (even though they usually already are). And other ones about it being okay to own slaves and hit your wife.


Title: Re: Science is the Devil!
Post by: Murgos on March 29, 2005, 05:31:14 PM
The problem is what do you do with the hundreds of thousands of followers you will attract overnight?


Title: Re: Science is the Devil!
Post by: pants on March 29, 2005, 06:14:59 PM
The problem is what do you do with the hundreds of thousands of followers you will attract overnight?

Profit!


Title: Re: Science is the Devil!
Post by: stray on March 29, 2005, 06:28:42 PM
Edit: I think oftentimes people fail to realize that the tenets of Christianity are nearly identical to those of other organized religions (at their core).

I think oftentimes people fail to realize that the tenets of Christianity have nothing in common with those in other religions (yes, at their core).

Believe it or not, "moral" and "wisdom" teachings aren't really that important to Christianity.

It's central tenet, and the one thing that seperates Christianity from most religions is "human sacrifice". The idea that the death of a specific human being is the ONLY path to redeem your soul, regardless of how little or how much wisdom you have, or how virtuous one is in life, is non existent in other belief systems.

"But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness" -- 1 Cor 1:23

In a certain light, it was actually meant to be a "foolish" religion: Just to make the threshold that much easier for people to pass through. It requires nothing but for people to drop their ego, and accept that another man's actions can speak for your own.

The problem is, humans are too self absorbed to want to make it anything easy for themselves. They refuse to accept simplicity.

It really has nothing to do with other faiths. The main difference between them is that they emphasize "enlightenment" -- while Christianity on the other hand, emphasizes "redemption".


Title: Re: Science is the Devil!
Post by: Strazos on March 29, 2005, 06:30:07 PM
Edit: I think oftentimes people fail to realize that the tenets of Christianity are nearly identical to those of other organized religions (at their core). This is a notion that I like to think strengthens the argument that (non-sociopathic) humans are already born with an internal "moral compass", regardless of faith in a god or devotion to a religion. I think humans already know right from wrong and are inclined to act on those gut feelings without the threat of eternal damnation. Or, maybe they really don't, and that's why some people need religion.

That's one of the arguments I use to try to explain to people that all religions are really the same...they all believe in the same god, etc., but just sing a different song.


Title: Re: Science is the Devil!
Post by: Alkiera on March 29, 2005, 07:45:05 PM
I agree with Stray on Christianity.  It's dead simple.  Love God, love other people. 

I'd agree, within limits, that all the other world religions are similar on a certain level, including Judaism.  They all 'preach' a list of bad things you should avoid doing, lists of things you should be doing, descriptions of the ideal human existance, and mechanisms for reaching that ideal... along with a lot of other stuff that is there to support those lists and mechanisms.

Christianity is different because of the simplicity of it.  Love God, love people.  What does it mena by love?
Quote from: Paul, in 1 Corinthians 13:4-7
Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not selfseeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

In short, Love is pretty much all those things that people are not, by default.  It's something that must be learned, either the easy way, if you're taught as a child, or the hard way, as you do all the normal human things and find out, 'Gee, I always have a hard time with relationships, why could that be?'  Notice how you never see people who demonstrate Paul's attributes of love on the Jerry Springer show.

This is a notion that I like to think strengthens the argument that (non-sociopathic) humans are already born with an internal "moral compass", regardless of faith in a god or devotion to a religion. I think humans already know right from wrong and are inclined to act on those gut feelings without the threat of eternal damnation.
Yeah, that theory is working out really well...  except young children are inherently rebelious and self-centered, until taught to be otherwise.  If everyone knew right from wrong, and was inclined to act on those feelings, the world would be a far different place, I'm sure.

Or, maybe they really don't, and that's why some people need religion.
Those that feel they 'are good people' and therefore don't need religion were often taught to be good people by religious parents, or by people whose parents were religious.  Most of what people are taught by most religions is how to be a good person...  because it's not built in.  Violence in the inner cities(and the outer ones), school shootings, etc?  Mostly can be traced back to kids who basically raise themselves, with no input from parental figures.

Alkiera


Title: Re: Science is the Devil!
Post by: Strazos on March 29, 2005, 07:55:23 PM
Those that feel they 'are good people' and therefore don't need religion were often taught to be good people by religious parents, or by people whose parents were religious.  Most of what people are taught by most religions is how to be a good person...  because it's not built in.  Violence in the inner cities(and the outer ones), school shootings, etc?  Mostly can be traced back to kids who basically raise themselves, with no input from parental figures.

While I do agree with your statement generally, how many people here had parents who maybe had to go through some Catholic school, and learned not a damn thing from it, yet are still good people?

Granted, I think, in theory, religions can teach a lot of good things, especially through actual study (rather than simply passively listening to a sermon). It's the execution that people seem to consistently fuck up.

But as Marx would say, it's still the opiate of the masses, and throughout history, has basically done as much bad as good (at best).


Title: Re: Science is the Devil!
Post by: Murgos on March 29, 2005, 08:01:17 PM
  Violence in the inner cities(and the outer ones), school shootings, etc?  Mostly can be traced back to kids who basically raise themselves, with no input from parental figures.

This is true even if the parents are highly religious.  It doesn't really reinforce your point.


Title: Re: Science is the Devil!
Post by: Alkiera on March 29, 2005, 08:23:26 PM
Thanks, Strazos, I knew someone would nitpick that when I wrote it.  My statement doesn't allow for the fact that since the 60's or so, some Americans have stopped trying to raise their kids, and depend on school or their friends or something to teach them how to be good people.  And that this trend tends to grow over time, as kids who basically raised themselves become parents, and then grandparents.

All of philosophy and alot of religion seems to stem from people who looked around at human existance, and thought, "Man, this is messed up!"  Then then thought about why, and how to fix those problems.  Jews claim their fixes came from God via Moses.  Islam claims their rules came from Allah(see the Jew's God), via Mohammed.  Most eastern religions/philosphies got their rules from guys who had a lot of time on their hands to spend thinking.  Christians got their rules from God, via Jesus.  Wildly enough, a lot of these rules are the same, tho they came from different sources, spread across a decently sized portion of the earth.  Why?  Because human nature is pretty much the same, world-wide.  Cultural effects are relatively minor in comparison, especially since the Romans unified a great deal of the population of the earth, and then the Spanish, French, and British took care of the areas the Romans missed.  Humans, by default, really suck to deal with.  So we came up with rules, that if followed, make life much nicer on the whole.

Yet, these rules have since been seperated from religion, and are called 'ethics', due to the anti-religious push in the last 150 years or so, because people want to be able to say they are 'good people' without religion...  Yet the vast majority of the common ethics came from millenia-old religions.

Violence in the inner cities(and the outer ones), school shootings, etc? Mostly can be traced back to kids who basically raise themselves, with no input from parental figures.
This is true even if the parents are highly religious. It doesn't really reinforce your point.
That was in response to voodoolily's comment about people being inherently good, not anything to do with religion.  I think it does make the point I was aiming at, that people are NOT inherently good.  Your additional information adds that being a 'good person' is not genetic, either, with which I agree. 

Alkiera


Title: Re: Science is the Devil!
Post by: Johny Cee on March 29, 2005, 09:29:21 PM
A major stumbling block in this thread is definition of religion.  What is a religion?

Should it be narrowly defined as "belief in God/gods/all-mighty spirtual being despite abundant facts for the contrary?"  This seems to be the general view of most casual atheists,  who discount the practical societal benefits of organized religion based on criticism of said religions various myth/legendary cycles.

I'd argue that a religion should be defined as belief in a cause/societal movement DESPITE empirical evidence to the contrary of beliefs espoused.  Basically boiled down to,  socieal construct supported by belief and faith without or with little proof.  Whether that belief is in the natural moral good of humainty,  trickle down ecomonics, the benefits of the welfare state, or what have you.  Especially when the faith comes despite the fact that it runs contrary to self-interested motives, or when it is actively determental to your own wants, needs, or desires.

By this definition,  we can include the two religions of the American political scene,  Democrat and Republican.  I am constantly amazed and astounded by the devotion or hatred showered on specific political figures that have very little actual differentiation.  Whether you believe Clinton is the anti-christ or Bush is the new Hitler,  they are both moderates.  Their policies have fairly small differentiation.  But somehow people heap torrents of emotion on the subjects. 

More telling are regional differences within both parties.  A southern Democrat can be quite a bit more conservative than a northeasten Republican,  but somehow partisans will lionize their politician while demonizing the opponent.

Why?  Because they have faith in the Rightness of their side's cause.

This definition would, of course,  encompass Red Sox fans.....


Title: Re: Science is the Devil!
Post by: Strazos on March 30, 2005, 05:12:47 AM
A major stumbling block in this thread is definition of religion.  What is a religion?

This is a question that is so difficult to truely answer that there are numerous college courses on it, and they all usually fail to completely answer this question; there are alwasy numerous "exceptions".

Quote from: Alkiera
Stuff, and a mention of Eastern religion.

EDIT: Whoops, you covered yourself by throwing Philosophies in there. SEE: Daoism, Confucism, Shinto, Buddhism (To a degree, depending upon sect).


Title: Re: Science is the Devil!
Post by: Paelos on March 30, 2005, 06:53:35 AM
I find it funny that atheists want to point to this "overwhelming evidence" to the contrary of the existence of God. Even the most rudimentary philosopher would agrue the "I can't see it or touch it, so it doesn't exist" defense. Also, science goes a long way to understanding the systems of the world. Things move and operate in amazing symbiosis. But understanding systems better and better does not disprove the existence of a Creator.


Title: Re: Science is the Devil!
Post by: tazelbain on March 30, 2005, 08:42:52 AM
I think it is an overwhelming "lack" of evidence. So much harder disprove things than it is to prove when you can't examine it.  The God of Gaps is hard to pin-down because every time you fill in a gap, his followers point to another gap.  Lots of gaps, but less than there use to be.


Title: Re: Science is the Devil!
Post by: Shmtur on March 30, 2005, 09:24:37 AM
I find it funny that atheists want to point to this "overwhelming evidence" to the contrary of the existence of God. Even the most rudimentary philosopher would agrue the "I can't see it or touch it, so it doesn't exist" defense. Also, science goes a long way to understanding the systems of the world. Things move and operate in amazing symbiosis. But understanding systems better and better does not disprove the existence of a Creator.

Now you're just putting words in other people's mouths.  Yes, the end of that statement is correct; it doesn't disprove the existence of a creator.  Nor does it prove anything.  It is not provable or disprovable in any way, so therefore the only "correct" (logically) stance to take is agnosticism.

I put that in quotation marks for a reason.


Title: Re: Science is the Devil!
Post by: HaemishM on March 30, 2005, 09:28:13 AM
Yeah, that theory is working out really well...  except young children are inherently rebelious and self-centered, until taught to be otherwise.  If everyone knew right from wrong, and was inclined to act on those feelings, the world would be a far different place, I'm sure.

Young children are not rebellious. Young children are testing the bounds of their reality, and that includes what things mommy and daddy let me get away with without any punishment, as well as the bounds of "hot things burn," "pain hurts." They aren't self-centered, they just have no sense of the feelings of others beyond their own good and bad feelings. A child, a baby is a creature of pure instinct and emotion, without the refined perceptions based on experiences.

I believe there is an absolute morality, which we learn through our growing understanding of the world around us and the people we have to interact with. Once we learn that someone else can hurt us, then we learn that it is wrong to hurt others. The Golden Rule principle. Some people choose to ignore this absolute morality, and others have better or worse understanding of this morality based on their own experiences.

As for Christianity being unique, it really isn't. What Christians call redemption, other religions call enlightenment. Christians like to say that they are unique because other religions supposedly work off of actions, the performance of rituals, etc. But really, the first step in all relgions is believing that the fundament of that religion, the central deity or deities, are the model from which your life should be lived and through which your eternal soul will gain its eternal reward.

Joseph Campbell is the man to read for comparative religious studies. Central tenet: All religions are cultural interpretations of the same universal truths.


Title: Re: Science is the Devil!
Post by: voodoolily on March 30, 2005, 09:38:20 AM
Thank you, Haemish, for summarily supporting everything I said, was trying to say, or was about to say. The part of a kid's brain that comprehends empathy and is cognizant of the feelings/needs of others doesn't even develop until around age 3 or 4. That's why toddlers are infamously impossible to deal with and think everything is theirs. Emotional and intellectual development has stages, just like physical development. There are many classic studies in early childhood development/psychology that support this.

If I were a Christian, I wouldn't necessarily be proud of the fact that Christianity is based on human sacrifice (which does NOT make it unique from other religions), Jesus being the metaphorical lamb. Sacrifice to a bloodthirsty god is creepy.

Also, if we're gonna play the "humans are bad" "no, humans are good" game, then this conversation should be one for the Confucious vs. Lao Tsu thread, not Christians vs. everyone else.

Edit: one thing that does make Chritianity unique from probably all religions of the world is the tendency to proselytize other cultures into submission. Chrisitianity has been the undoing of so many indigenous people's faiths (in the name of righteousness) that it is just staggering. The Yanomano and Tirio Indians of the Amazon basin have all but lost their ENTIRE WAYS OF LIFE, not just their religions, because of missionaries.


Title: Re: Science is the Devil!
Post by: HaemishM on March 30, 2005, 10:03:12 AM
According to Christianity, humans are inherently sinful.

I believe humans have the ability for both sin and good, because of the one thing most agree on. Free will. It just happens to be easier to sin than not, sometimes.


Title: Re: Science is the Devil!
Post by: Daeven on March 30, 2005, 11:56:58 AM
Edit: one thing that does make Chritianity unique from probably all religions of the world is the tendency to proselytize other cultures into submission. Chrisitianity has been the undoing of so many indigenous people's faiths (in the name of righteousness) that it is just staggering. The Yanomano and Tirio Indians of the Amazon basin have all but lost their ENTIRE WAYS OF LIFE, not just their religions, because of missionaries.
Tell that to the Anamists of the Darfur with regard to Islam.


Title: Re: Science is the Devil!
Post by: voodoolily on March 30, 2005, 12:01:02 PM
I didn't say that Chrisitians are the only ones who go to war kill over religion. Are they trying to convert the Anamists to Islam, or just killing them because they aren't Muslim?

Edit: in South America the missionary work doesn't just tell indigenous people to worship the Christian god, it tells them that the way they live is sinful and primitive. So now these people, who've been getting along fine for millenia, don't even know how to make their own weapons or medicine, and are becoming increasingly reliant on western technology just to survive. I'm just not aware of any other religion that does that to other people.




Title: Re: Science is the Devil!
Post by: Paelos on March 30, 2005, 12:18:00 PM
I didn't say that Chrisitians are the only ones who go to war kill over religion. Are they trying to convert the Anamists to Islam, or just killing them because they aren't Muslim?

Edit: in South America the missionary work doesn't just tell indigenous people to worship the Christian god, it tells them that the way they live is sinful and primitive. So now these people, who've been getting along fine for millenia, don't even know how to make their own weapons or medicine, and are becoming increasingly reliant on western technology just to survive. I'm just not aware of any other religion that does that to other people.

Define "getting along fine." Cultures don't exist in a vacuum. It's better that the missionaries are going over there with a spirit of love and help than the old idea of squashing primative cultures into jam. If you want to get into the whole "white man's burden" thing that stems over from the first explorers arriving in the new world, that's a whole different can of worms than just talking about religion.


Title: Re: Science is the Devil!
Post by: voodoolily on March 30, 2005, 12:21:49 PM
I'm not talking about what happened 250 years ago, I'm talking about what happened in the 1990s.

And still, no one wants to address the bloodthirty god aspect of Christianity. God is love, huh?

As far as going with a spirit of love and hope, the road to hell is paved with good intentions, isn't it?


Title: Re: Science is the Devil!
Post by: HaemishM on March 30, 2005, 12:30:36 PM
Blood for the Blood God.  

My biggest problem with evangelism is that it tends to quell discussion because the evangelist must always attempt to persuade the other person of their own rightness. It isn't a discussion, it's a sermon.


Title: Re: Science is the Devil!
Post by: Paelos on March 30, 2005, 12:33:01 PM
I'm not talking about what happened 250 years ago, I'm talking about what happened in the 1990s.

And still, no one wants to address the bloodthirty god aspect of Christianity. God is love, huh?

As far as going with a spirit of love and hope, the road to hell is paved with good intentions, isn't it?

1) You referenced missionary work, which has been going on for centuries with both successes and failures. It's not perfect but it has gone a long way to help bring new life to cultures that were dealing with being surrounded by the modern world. Like I said, nothing exists in a vacuum.

2) God has many faces. God is a parent, a judge, a lover, and a friend. He gave us life and an eternal soul with the gift of free will. He asks us to sacrifice part of our lives to him. The most precious thing in the world is your life, and the essence of your life is your blood. The sacrifices of the Hebrews of animals were meant as a symbol to cleanse their sins, but this did not work. That was why God came down in the form of Jesus and laid his life down on the cross. If you want to discuss the conditions in which sacrifices were made, look at the book of Hebrews. Also, refer to the story of Isaac, Abraham's only son, when God asked Abraham to sacrifice Isaac. It was a test of faith that he was willing to make, but God did not require it in the end. Look at the trials of Job and his faith in God after everything had fallen apart. The message is that nothing in our life comes easy, and the most important things we have come with sacrifices that must be made.


Title: Re: Science is the Devil!
Post by: voodoolily on March 30, 2005, 12:49:56 PM
I'm not talking about what happened 250 years ago, I'm talking about what happened in the 1990s.

And still, no one wants to address the bloodthirty god aspect of Christianity. God is love, huh?

As far as going with a spirit of love and hope, the road to hell is paved with good intentions, isn't it?

1) You referenced missionary work, which has been going on for centuries with both successes and failures. It's not perfect but it has gone a long way to help bring new life to cultures that were dealing with being surrounded by the modern world. Like I said, nothing exists in a vacuum.

2) God has many faces. God is a parent, a judge, a lover, and a friend. He gave us life and an eternal soul with the gift of free will. He asks us to sacrifice part of our lives to him. The most precious thing in the world is your life, and the essence of your life is your blood. The sacrifices of the Hebrews of animals were meant as a symbol to cleanse their sins, but this did not work. That was why God came down in the form of Jesus and laid his life down on the cross. If you want to discuss the conditions in which sacrifices were made, look at the book of Hebrews. Also, refer to the story of Isaac, Abraham's only son, when God asked Abraham to sacrifice Isaac. It was a test of faith that he was willing to make, but God did not require it in the end. Look at the trials of Job and his faith in God after everything had fallen apart. The message is that nothing in our life comes easy, and the most important things we have come with sacrifices that must be made.

I'm sorry, but this totally falls on deaf ears. God is not my lover (if he's yours, you really need to get out more). I already have been subject to these stories that are supposed to make our tribulations seem light in comparison to what others have been tested with. I appreciate your undying devotion to something you can't ever see or hear, but I still don't think you're right.

Missionary work has always, and will always do more harm than good. Trying to say that it's less evil now than it used to be doesn't really say much.


Title: Re: Science is the Devil!
Post by: Paelos on March 30, 2005, 01:17:44 PM
Missionary work has always, and will always do more harm than good. Trying to say that it's less evil now than it used to be doesn't really say much.

Emphasis mine.

Thanks for proving you have absolutely no idea what the hell you are talking about. Crack a history book once in a while. Missionaries in the past have been responsible for helping cure diseases, rallied against genocides, and improved human rights conditions world-wide. I mean is telling people about God really that offensive to you? Open your mind an inch.


Title: Re: Science is the Devil!
Post by: Shockeye on March 30, 2005, 01:20:26 PM
Thanks for proving you have absolutely no idea what the hell you are talking about. Crack a history book once in a while. Missionaries in the past have been responsible for helping cure diseases, rallied against genocides, and improved human rights conditions world-wide. I mean is telling people about God really that offensive to you? Open your mind an inch.

Crack a history book yourself. Missionaries have often been the ones bringing the diseases.


Title: Re: Science is the Devil!
Post by: Paelos on March 30, 2005, 01:25:18 PM
I'm not the one saying they ALWAYS do more harm than good. I've admitted they have done horrible things, but they have also done incredibly noble things. By Voodoolily's logic, Mother Teresa should have just stayed at home. I'm sorry, but screw that. I'm glad there are people willing to go to places that are suffering and do good there.


Title: Re: Science is the Devil!
Post by: Shockeye on March 30, 2005, 01:27:10 PM
I'm not the one saying they ALWAYS do more harm than good. I've admitted they have done horrible things, but they have also done incredibly noble things. By Voodoolily's logic, Mother Teresa should have just stayed at home. I'm sorry, but screw that. I'm glad there are people willing to go to places that are suffering and do good there.

Well, I'm willing to put Mother Teresa in a class by herself.

She was clearly the exception.


Title: Re: Science is the Devil!
Post by: voodoolily on March 30, 2005, 01:27:58 PM
Telling people about god isn't offensive, it's just annoying. Most of these people who're getting nailed by missionaries already have a god. Who the fuck are you to say that their god isn't good enough? Did it ever occur to you that some people simply aren't in the market for a god? Evangelism assumes a superiority over everything that isn't Christian. There isn't but one right way, despite that whole "I am the way, the truth and the life" bullshit.


Title: Re: Science is the Devil!
Post by: SirBruce on March 30, 2005, 01:31:37 PM
Mother Theresa has done plenty of bad, too. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mother_Theresa)

Bruce


Title: Re: Science is the Devil!
Post by: Shockeye on March 30, 2005, 01:33:50 PM
Telling people about god isn't offensive, it's just annoying. Most of these people who're getting nailed by missionaries already have a god. Who the fuck are you to say that their god isn't good enough? Did it ever occur to you that some people simply aren't in the market for a god? Evangelism assumes a superiority over everything that isn't Christian. There isn't but one right way, despite that whole "I am the way, the truth and the life" bullshit.

Now you're going overboard, even for me.

Part of Christianity is sharing the "good news" with others. And part of Christianity is that they are right and everyone else is wrong. Roman Catholics are big on that. As far as Christianity goes, there is only one right way, their way.

I don't believe that, but if they feel the need to try to save my soul by telling me about Jesus, well good for them. I'll just calmly tell them that the leader of my cult doesn't want me talking to them and that's that.


Title: Re: Science is the Devil!
Post by: schild on March 30, 2005, 01:36:30 PM
You don't have to dance around with phrases like "Leader of my Cult" or whatever.

It's ok. We're all here for you.

Just say it.

Xenu.


Title: Re: Science is the Devil!
Post by: Shockeye on March 30, 2005, 01:36:55 PM
Mother Theresa has done plenty of bad, too. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mother_Theresa)

Will you stop with the Wikipedia shit already?


Title: Re: Science is the Devil!
Post by: Samwise on March 30, 2005, 01:37:20 PM
Well, I'm willing to put Mother Teresa in a class by herself.

She was clearly the exception.

Is it your contention that every other Christian involved in charity work has some shady ulterior motive?  Are Christian soup kitchens really just fattening the homeless up for slaughter?  What?


Title: Re: Science is the Devil!
Post by: schild on March 30, 2005, 01:37:34 PM
I think I'm going to change my avatar. Everytime I re-read one of my posts he looks at me as if he's going to do something naughty to what I've written.

I shouldn't have such a shifty avatar.

Either that or he just farted. And doesn't want you to know.


Title: Re: Science is the Devil!
Post by: schild on March 30, 2005, 01:39:54 PM
Speaking of Science and religion. I was in the current affairs section of B&N the other day reading this "Lists of things the government doesn't want you to know" books.

It told me Jerry Seinfeld is a scientologist.

It's wrong, right?


Title: Re: Science is the Devil!
Post by: voodoolily on March 30, 2005, 01:50:45 PM
Now you're going overboard, even for me.

Part of Christianity is sharing the "good news" with others. And part of Christianity is that they are right and everyone else is wrong. Roman Catholics are big on that. As far as Christianity goes, there is only one right way, their way.

This is all I was getting at, from the beginning. I don't know of any religion besides Christianity that not only assumes it's the only right way, but also employs evangelism to enforce it.

I don't believe that, but if they feel the need to try to save my soul by telling me about Jesus, well good for them. I'll just calmly tell them that the leader of my cult doesn't want me talking to them and that's that.

I dunno, I may just be getting fired up again, but it still feels like a mild form of religious persecution. Pretend I didn't say 'bullshit' after the truth and the life thing.


Title: Re: Science is the Devil!
Post by: voodoolily on March 30, 2005, 01:53:24 PM
I think I'm going to change my avatar. Everytime I re-read one of my posts he looks at me as if he's going to do something naughty to what I've written.

I shouldn't have such a shifty avatar.

Either that or he just farted. And doesn't want you to know.

It's not so much shifty, as it is coy. Just like this picture I will foist upon you once more:

(http://www.bikerfox.com/foxphotos2/images/0165.jpg)


Title: Re: Science is the Devil!
Post by: Fargull on March 30, 2005, 02:05:14 PM
I don't believe that, but if they feel the need to try to save my soul by telling me about Jesus, well good for them. I'll just calmly tell them that the leader of my cult doesn't want me talking to them and that's that.

No. No. No.  Just send a large Cephalopod to eat their congregation.


Title: Re: Science is the Devil!
Post by: Samwise on March 30, 2005, 02:11:10 PM
Now you're going overboard, even for me.

Part of Christianity is sharing the "good news" with others. And part of Christianity is that they are right and everyone else is wrong. Roman Catholics are big on that. As far as Christianity goes, there is only one right way, their way.

This is all I was getting at, from the beginning. I don't know of any religion besides Christianity that not only assumes it's the only right way, but also employs evangelism to enforce it.

Islam?  Atheism?  Those are the first two thoroughly non-Christian examples that come to mind.  Not only do both those religions have a lot of evangelism, in some cases it's been military in nature.

Even religions that don't have organized evangelism (I'm not sure, but I think the Mormons are the most evangelical, since every Mormon man is required to do a year or so of full-time formal evangelizing when he reaches a certain age) do have individual evangelism to some extent.  Unless you can guarantee me that no member of your religion ever talks about his/her religion with anyone else (which is probably only the case for very small and very secretive cults), you can't tell me that your religion doesn't employ evangeliism.


Title: Re: Science is the Devil!
Post by: voodoolily on March 30, 2005, 02:16:37 PM
Oh, c'mon - let's not use semantics. If I must clarify, I should've used the word 'proselytism' instead of 'evangelism'. Although 'aculturation' would've worked just as well.

Seriously, I didn't know there were evangelical Muslims. I didn't think they tried to recruit members. As far as my atheism, perhaps I am evangelizing by participating in a forum in which my views are exposed.


Title: Re: Science is the Devil!
Post by: HaemishM on March 30, 2005, 02:18:37 PM
Islam used to use a very effective form of evangelism. "Convert or die." Worked wonders in the Middle Ages. Most of the religious wars throughout history were a very violent form of evangelism. Shit, the fundamentalist Islamic groups out there are just doing their twisted fucking idea of evangelism.

Christianity is not alone in evangelism, or in dangerous evangelism. At their hearts, very few religions are going to claim that they are anything other than the right, true and only path to "salvation/redemption/enlightenment."


Title: Re: Science is the Devil!
Post by: tazelbain on March 30, 2005, 02:18:58 PM
> Also, refer to the story of Isaac, Abraham's only son, when God asked Abraham to sacrifice Isaac. It was a test of faith that he was willing to make, but God did not require it in the end

Evil.

I can't decided which is worse:
a) that God was cruel enough to give this test
b) that wiliness to slaughter your children passed the test

Also see:
Story of Isaac by Leonard Cohen - I'd post the lyrics but they really don't do the song justice.


Title: Re: Science is the Devil!
Post by: Shockeye on March 30, 2005, 02:21:39 PM
Evil.

I can't decided which is worse:
a) that God was cruel enough to give this test
b) that wiliness to slaughter your children passed the test

It just goes to show that Old Testament God had low self-esteem and had to reassure himself that people would still do everything single thing he said.

I'd rather have a God on Prozac, myself.


Title: Re: Science is the Devil!
Post by: Samwise on March 30, 2005, 02:27:55 PM
Honestly, I'm not trying to argue semantics here - I really don't see any difference between a Christian espousing his faith and a member of any other religion doing the same.  Dictionary.com sez that proselytizing is defined as:

1. To induce someone to convert to one's own religious faith.
2. To induce someone to join one's own political party or to espouse one's doctrine.

So if you participate on a forum espousing your doctrine (be it Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism, atheism, even agnosticism), you are proselytising, evangelizing, whatever you want to call it.  Different people will place different levels of importance on "converting" other people, but on some level, most people who talk about their beliefs do so because they feel that their beliefs are "right" and they want to share them with others.  Atheists, you're just as guilty of this as fundy Christians.  I've seen you at it.   :-P

If you want more concrete examples of military non-Christian evangelism, look at how Muslims conquered other countries (including Christians, Hindus, and probably others I'm not aware of), starting around the 8th century, to spread their faith.  Or look at religious persecution in the Soviet Union - atheism effectively became the official state religion after the October Revolution, and any Russian Christians or Jews who didn't fall in line were punished.  If that isn't evangelism/proselytism/whatever, I don't know what is.


Title: Re: Science is the Devil!
Post by: Samwise on March 30, 2005, 02:33:08 PM
Evil.

I can't decided which is worse:
a) that God was cruel enough to give this test
b) that wiliness to slaughter your children passed the test

It just goes to show that Old Testament God had low self-esteem and had to reassure himself that people would still do everything single thing he said.

I'd rather have a God on Prozac, myself.

In the Old Testament, humanity's covenant with God was sealed by Abraham's willingness to sacrifice his son.  Except God stepped in at the last second and said "psych, you don't really have to, I was just making sure."
In the New Testament, God's new covenant with humanity was sealed by God's willingness to sacrifice his son.  Except God actually went through with it that time, and humanity didn't say "psych, we'll take him down from the cross now."

Even if you don't believe that any of that stuff actually happened, there's some pretty interesting symmetry going on there.


Title: Re: Science is the Devil!
Post by: voodoolily on March 30, 2005, 02:35:18 PM
How can you cite Dictionary.com and say you're not arguing semantics?  :-)

I guess the main difference between myself and your friendly neighborhood jay-dub is that I  don't honestly think I'm going to change anyone's mind or get them to convert. I don't even want them to! I just want to challenge people to question their own beliefs.

Have you heard the good news? It doesn't matter how bad you are, you won't go to hell! (but you might get the shit kicked out of you if you piss off the wrong person)


Title: Re: Science is the Devil!
Post by: Paelos on March 30, 2005, 02:39:27 PM
Skepticism towards religion is the arm-chair quarterbacking of philosophy. It requires no more effort than to poke at those who take a leap of faith. And I think I've said everything I needed to in this thread now.


Title: Re: Science is the Devil!
Post by: voodoolily on March 30, 2005, 02:41:36 PM
Just because I don't believe in god doesn't mean I don't have beliefs. Nice assumption, though.


Title: Re: Science is the Devil!
Post by: tazelbain on March 30, 2005, 02:43:02 PM
Skepticism towards religion is the arm-chair quarterbacking of philosophy. It requires no more effort than to poke at those who take a leap of faith. And I think I've said everything I needed to in this thread now.
lol, nice one.


Title: Re: Science is the Devil!
Post by: Shockeye on March 30, 2005, 02:45:43 PM
Honestly, I'm not trying to argue semantics here - I really don't see any difference between a Christian espousing his faith and a member of any other religion doing the same.  Dictionary.com sez that proselytizing is defined as:

1. To induce someone to convert to one's own religious faith.
2. To induce someone to join one's own political party or to espouse one's doctrine.

So if you participate on a forum espousing your doctrine (be it Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism, atheism, even agnosticism), you are proselytising, evangelizing, whatever you want to call it.  Different people will place different levels of importance on "converting" other people, but on some level, most people who talk about their beliefs do so because they feel that their beliefs are "right" and they want to share them with others.  Atheists, you're just as guilty of this as fundy Christians.  I've seen you at it.   :-P

If you want more concrete examples of military non-Christian evangelism, look at how Muslims conquered other countries (including Christians, Hindus, and probably others I'm not aware of), starting around the 8th century, to spread their faith.  Or look at religious persecution in the Soviet Union - atheism effectively became the official state religion after the October Revolution, and any Russian Christians or Jews who didn't fall in line were punished.  If that isn't evangelism/proselytism/whatever, I don't know what is.

I can't disagree with any of that. Well typed.


Title: Re: Science is the Devil!
Post by: Shockeye on March 30, 2005, 02:53:08 PM
I guess the main difference between myself and your friendly neighborhood jay-dub is that I  don't honestly think I'm going to change anyone's mind or get them to convert. I don't even want them to! I just want to challenge people to question their own beliefs.

I don't for a second believe that tripe. You don't just around challenging people to question their beliefs for no reason other than the challenge. No one's brain operates that way. On some level you're hoping they'll realize they are wrong and you are right. Don't claim your crap doesn't stink, because it does.


Title: Re: Science is the Devil!
Post by: Samwise on March 30, 2005, 03:00:51 PM
How can you cite Dictionary.com and say you're not arguing semantics?  :-)

I was trying to avoid a semantic argument by saying "okay, it sounds like I misinterpreted what you said earlier, so here's what I think the term you're using means, correct me if I'm wrong."  If you want to provide your own definition, I'll be happy to work with that instead.  I'm trying to address what you actually said, not the words you used to say it (which would be a semantic argument), but I can only do that if I understand the words you're using, so I provided the definition I knew in order to make sure that my understanding was correct.

Quote
I guess the main difference between myself and your friendly neighborhood jay-dub is that I  don't honestly think I'm going to change anyone's mind or get them to convert. I don't even want them to! I just want to challenge people to question their own beliefs.

Have you heard the good news? It doesn't matter how bad you are, you won't go to hell! (but you might get the shit kicked out of you if you piss off the wrong person)

If you get people to question their own beliefs, and anything actually comes out of that questioning (changing the beliefs so that the answers to the questions are more satisfactory), it will qualify as a "conversion".  And you will have been responsible for that.  Even if you never actually succeed, the fact that your words are intended to provoke a re-evaluation of beliefs means that you're evangelizing.  I don't think that's at all a bad thing, but it's pretty hypocritical for you to lambaste people of other beliefs for doing the exact same thing.

If your words aren't actually intended to cause anyone to rethink anything, you're basically talking to yourself.  I doubt that this is the case.   :wink:

An evangelizing Christian wants to make people happy by giving them a personal relationship with God.  An evangelizing atheist wants to make people happy by relieving them of the burden of belief in God.  I just don't see the difference.  Both have beliefs that make them happy, both are trying to improve the world by sharing that happiness.  The sentiment is admirable, even if the behavior is usually annoying.


Title: Re: Science is the Devil!
Post by: voodoolily on March 30, 2005, 03:07:57 PM
Okay, everyone. Tou-fucking-che.


Title: Re: Science is the Devil!
Post by: voodoolily on March 30, 2005, 03:12:53 PM

You don't just [go] around challenging people to question their beliefs for no reason other than the challenge. No one's brain operates that way. On some level you're hoping they'll realize they are wrong and you are right. Don't claim your crap doesn't stink, because it does.

Daddy, what's a devil's advocate?


Title: Re: Science is the Devil!
Post by: Samwise on March 30, 2005, 03:22:26 PM
Somebody who argues a point of view that opposes their own in order to challenge their own opinions and avoid groupthink.  It doesn't count if you're arguing your own point of view.


Title: Re: Science is the Devil!
Post by: SirBruce on March 30, 2005, 03:25:55 PM
Mother Theresa has done plenty of bad, too. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mother_Theresa)

Will you stop with the Wikipedia shit already?

No (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuck_Off)

Bruce


Title: Re: Science is the Devil!
Post by: Rasix on March 30, 2005, 03:28:05 PM
Edit: blah, why bother.


Title: Re: Science is the Devil!
Post by: Samwise on March 30, 2005, 03:28:52 PM
I hadn't had a good laugh yet today.  Thanks, Bruce.   :-D


Title: Re: Science is the Devil!
Post by: Strazos on March 30, 2005, 03:32:04 PM
Bleh, you kids were busy today...a little late for me to jump in, but...

Christian missionaries tend to cannablize every foreign culture they come into contact. Case in point: early missionaries to the Germanic peoples. They would explain how their customs were "wrong" and why they should become Christian. (I can't find my Medieval notebook, so I will probably give the wrong name...) Pope Gregory (??) also had a policy of letting converts keep some of their "less offensive" practices. See: Christmas.


Title: Re: Science is the Devil!
Post by: Samwise on March 30, 2005, 03:38:14 PM
As we've already covered, this behavior isn't unique to Christians.  Again, look at the Soviets around 1920 or so.  Or if that's too recent, look at the early Roman empire (before Christianity took over).  The Romans were particularly famous for cannabilizing every culture they came in contact with - they originally stole their religious beliefs from the Greeks and then tried to impose them on everyone else, including the Jews and the early Christians.  (The Christians just happened to be the ones to turn the tables and convert Rome instead of being converted themselves.)


Title: Re: Science is the Devil!
Post by: Belce on March 30, 2005, 04:13:45 PM
Most of the discussion concerning the theory of evolution tends to be done without understanding what theory means in this discussion.  Its just a theory of gravity, relaitivity, atoms, electricity, and evolution.  In science theory is not just someone's musings on the subject and a few good points. 


Title: Re: Science is the Devil!
Post by: stray on March 30, 2005, 04:37:52 PM
Buddhism has always been evangelistic too. In fact, it's probably the best comparison to Christianity's "brand" of evangelism, as it is only religious in nature, and converting to those belief systems do not require dropping one's cultural idenitity or subscribing to different political ideals.

Someone mentioned earlier how Christian preaching destroys "cultural identity" -- but that is simply not the case. The reason for it's success is that it allows people to retain the right to "be themselves". From the very beginning of Christian history, this always been so: The first Christians were Jews preaching to the Greek and Roman world. Yet they didn't require non-Jews to start resembling behaving like themselves. It was only a matter of theology.

1 Cor 9:20-23: "And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law; To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law. To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some. And this I do for the gospel's sake, that I might be partaker thereof with you."

More examples: The Irish who followed St. Patrick were still allowed to be "Irish" and "Celtic". Central and South America, Africa, Russian, Chinese -- All forms of Christianity hold their distinct personalities.

A good illustration would come from the Chinese Bible, which translates John 1:1 as this: "In the beginning was the Tao, and Tao was with God, and the Tao was God".

And like I said, the success of Buddhism lies in the same thinking: The Buddhist monks who traveled east (originating from India) would find an angle to appeal to each land they settled in. This is the very reason why Zen, Mahayana, Shinto, and Theraveda, etc., forms of Buddhism are distinct from each other. They are all forms of the previous cultural beliefs applied to the Buddhist philosophy.

"Preaching" does not destroy anything. Not in these two cases at least. In fact, these two religions bend over backwards to adapt to their environments.


Title: Re: Science is the Devil!
Post by: Samwise on March 30, 2005, 04:50:13 PM
A good illustration would come from the Chinese Bible, which translates John 1:1 as this: "In the beginning was the Tao, and Tao was with God, and the Tao was God".

Doesn't "the Tao" itself just translate to "the Way", which is how that passage is translated in English anyway (if I'm thinking of the right passage)?  I always imagine the Tao as being a less personal version of God (or God as being a version of the Tao you can talk to, take your pick).


Title: Re: Science is the Devil!
Post by: stray on March 30, 2005, 05:11:57 PM
A good illustration would come from the Chinese Bible, which translates John 1:1 as this: "In the beginning was the Tao, and Tao was with God, and the Tao was God".

Doesn't "the Tao" itself just translate to "the Way", which is how that passage is translated in English anyway (if I'm thinking of the right passage)?  I always imagine the Tao as being a less personal version of God (or God as being a version of the Tao you can talk to, take your pick).

Literally speaking, yeah, but it also means more than that. The Chinese translation is more close (in the philosophical sense) to the meaning of "logos" than the "Word" is in the English versions.

On a sidenote: The word "logos" is a translation in itself, from the 1st century rabbinical personification of the "Torah" (To the Jews, the Torah wasn't just the first 5 books of the Bible. It was the all powerful force that proceeds from the mouth of God). The Christians saw Jesus as the human incarnation of this force. And in order for John to communicate this idea to Greeks and Romans, he used to the word "logos" in order for it to make sense to them, as it was the closest equivalent.

Whoever translated that verse into Chinese got it spot on, I think. It's a word in their language that has similar philosophical connotations, and would have profound meaning when a Bible states that Jesus is the physical embodiment of it.


Title: Re: Science is the Devil!
Post by: HaemishM on March 31, 2005, 08:32:21 AM
As I understand it, Tao as used in Buddhist teachings and the Chinese language is "the Way" literally, but with assloads of more spiritual connontations. Things like "the proper path to enlightenment," the "right-thinking way" I think was another translation I've heard, etc. It's a great word to encapsulate the whole "pathway to God/divinity/oneness with the universe/enlightenment" thing.

The best purpose for making something question their beliefs, or think about their beliefs, is to attempt to inculcate tolerance. Or, in more coarse terms, to get them to not be such a raging asshole when discussing their beliefs with others.

Also, whether because of its roots in Christianity, or something else entirely, I've found the main focus of American/Caucasian/Western Europeon culture has always been the assimiliation of other cultures. The Romans were the first and best at it, but America is slowly edging up on its accomplishments in that regard. We overpower and incorporate other disparate cultures into our own, letting them keep just enough to be comfortable, but making them essentially American at heart.