f13.net

I love this game but my play time has been almost non existent for it.  So my ingame knowledge is quite weak.

Question 1:  How are warriors faring in pvp in WoW? 
Question 2:  How do warriors deal with snare and root attacks? 
Question 3:  Are warrior taunts abilities wasted in pvp?

I don't see any defenses by way of abilities or talents to defend against root or snares for warriors.  From my days in Shadowbane melees often got owned by ranged attackers.  Blizzard has done a great job of improving the warrior class (which even EQ2 did as well I admit - that both games did this tells me something about the warrior class I played in EQ lol) but I have trouble seeing how he is not simply rooted and nuked.

I am intrigued that CoH says warrior / tanker taunts will actuall work in pvp.

(I am checking WoW forums for answers but there is so much "noise" that any signal of intelligence is hard to detect)

Warriors do fine in a 1-1 situation or in a group rush. Against many opponents they suck, even if they are much lower casters. They are very prone to stuns, roots, and various caster crap that will ruin the day. They don't have heals like pallys, so they can be easily toasted from a distance by spells that ignore the great plate armor they get. One of the best things I have as a warrior is a trinket that gives me invulneratability to all spells for 30 seconds. You get it as a high end armorcrafter. I'd love to see the look on a casters face when they try to root me, and I close the gap to hack them to pieces with intercept.

What trinket is this?  The high end blacksmithing one I know of is just 10 seconds of anti-fear.

If there is a trinket that gives inmunity to all spells for 30 seconds im dropping 300 enchanting today to pick up armorsmithing.  Thats an insta win against any caster in the game.

I am not very good at PvP no matter what class I play.  As a warrior, I do all right in most 1v1 situations, especially where I get to initiate the fight (i.e. can lead with a charge, that gets me in their face with some free rage).  I play on a PvE server, so I am probably not fighting against the best PvPers around.  Intercept is a big help as it can keep you from being kited.


free action potions for me, I also have some boots that break root that I wear when PvPing.  Long cool down though.  If you have no self-respect, you coudl always roll a gnome; they have a recial ability that breaks roots.  Not sure on the cooldown though.
 

Taunts don't do anything in PvP.  People used to bitch about this all the time in beta, and were told, incredibly, that having warrior taunts work for even 3 seconds be too un-fun for other players to allow because nobody likes to lose control over their character.   This in a game where much, much longer fears, charms, and roots are ubiquitous in PvP.   /sigh

Seconded- I'd drop my profession for armorsmithing for this too, and I'm a mage.  I'm almost positive the OP is dead wrong on this though.

I'd cry.  I'd cry a lot. I just dropped 276 armorsmithing last week.  Sucks to lose use of the anti-fear trinket, but I'd rather just contract out my armorsmithing needs (they don't exist) and not have a dead weight tradeskill that costs an assload of cash to raise.

I was wrong, it's the anti-fear trinket. My bad. Everyone can unbunch.

EDIT: It ups all resistances by 10, thus my confusion.

All PvP server warriors should have alch..

Free action potions
Rage potions
Heal potions
Spell damage type absorb potions
Invuln potions

hell everyone should have alch...  :-D

I never found a single situation where a free action potion was > than a health pot.

At 40 I'm starting to do a lot more PvP and hence I'm getting better at it.

Berserker Rage can prevent people from fearing you, or break you out of it.  However, you better be in berserk stance to begin with, because you can't change stances when feared.

One of the worst things for a warrior is a mage who frost novas then blinks, and turns around to nuke.  However, you can mitigate this somewhat by charging/intercepting the mage, hamstringing him so you can catch up to him even if he blinks, and hoping the nuke volley while you're nova'd doesn't do you in (or do more than you can heal).  Pummel is also nice, or shield bash if you are going that route (personally I try to avoid the shield).

If you are protection spec you have even a few more tricks, like improved revenge (stun), and improved shield bash (silence).

Roots are the same, but a druid can't nuke you as badly as a mage.  Either way, your best bet is to survive your time rooted and then intercept them and keep them stunned/hamstrung as long as possible.

1)     Generally 1x1 I am okay (though Mages can eat my lunch if they know what they are doing, or a Shadow Spec'd priest).  In GvG, I soak damage.  For some bloody reason everyone targets me which means the rogue and mage in my group kill off the other groups healer. I drop about half the time depending on healing on myside.  We win the battle though....

2)     Free Action potions as mentioned.  Still trying to get a full suit of Thorium to see how that works...

3)     Taunts are PvE.

You must be a Night Elf ;)

Personally, I find warriors to be lacking in PvP.  I haven't played to the endgame yet, though, and my highest warrior is only in his mid-twenties, so this may all be irrelevant at high levels, but I find the role of the warrior in grouped PvP is really limited.  Warriors, in my experience, have two strangths:  One, they've got a lot of hit points, and two, they can manage aggro better than other classes.  There's no real way to manage aggro in PvP, so the only thing warriors are left with is the fact that they take a lot of whacks to knock down.  

Since just about every other class has some kind of advantage (better damage, healing ability, etc.), I find that generally my warrior is fairly low on the priority list when engaging in large scale PvP.  On the plus side, this means that if you don't make yourself too obvious of a threat, you probably won't die.  I've been on the defending side of several fairly major raids where I haven't been killed once, because the attackers were all going after the mages and shamans (What is the plural of shaman?  Shamen?).  On the minus side, I do feel a bit useless.

One on one, I haven't had as much experience with.  I know most of my other characters can knock down warriors of equivalent level with a bit less difficulty than most other classes (rogues have trouble with them, I understand, though).  My warriors always have a ton of trouble with rage generation in one-on-one PvP.  My shaman once went toe-to-toe with a warrior one level below him, tossed a stoneskin totem, a firebiter weapon, and just flayed the warrior in straight up melee combat (didn't even have to use a heal).  I don't know if this particular warrior was wildly incompitent (I know I'm not noticeably uber or anything), but it just seemed to me wildly unbalanced that a hybrid caster in leather armor could smash a warrior in 1-1 melee with only the aid of a few cheap buffs.

Personally, I think a warrior's real strength is in instances, but in PvP, I don't really see their usefulness.  Especially for the Alliance, who can field Paladins, which seem to be a lot more effective in PvP.

Troll Warrior 49th level in a holding pattern till three group mates catch up.

It's definitely more mitigated at high levels.

For one, you get berserk stance at 30 and with that comes intercept.  You also get bloodrage at some level (I forget which), and that mitigates your rage generation problems.  It's on a cooldown but if you find yourself coming up short, it gives you 20 rage for the cost of a few health, and I have so much health at 40 that I've never noticed the cost.

You also get pummel (stop casters from casting like shield bash, but can be done with a weapon), execute (burn all your rage for a killing blow) and a few talents that enhance PvP like improved revenge (stun) and improved overpower (50% chance to crit).

In essence, warriors are less survivable than paladins but do more damage, more survivable than rogues but do less damage.  Against shamen, I'm not sure.  The only shamen I've fought lately have been higher level ones who took off half my health (usually 1k+) with one frost shock, so that's not exactly a good comparison.

As mentioned earlier in this thread, mages and other classes that root are a problem, but not insurmoutable ones.

Heh. My first hunter's mark always seeks out the priest. I then go for soft targets. I completely ignore paladins...unless they are on me, then I just drag them into an ambush or run, not worth wasting my time waiting out his immunities.
Shamans.
Didn't I read in the ingame lore (in a book) that night elves are the twisted forms of trolls? Blue skin, big ears...
Literal jubilation on the Shaman forums because Frost Shock wasn't nerfed...

It's (frost shock) not nerfed because there's no sensible way to change it.  It's already got a piss poor damage/mana ratio.  It's on the same goddamn timer as the rest of our shocks, so a shaman's only recourse to keep someone off them is to spam frost shock. We can throw in a fire shock if the person is an idiot or maybe an earth shock if they're a caster or for a nice parting blow(higher crit chance for most shaman), but otherwise you've got to keep up the spam on intelligent players to keep them out of melee (or keep them in for hunters).   Believe us, we're not doing it for the damage.

Anyone's that bitching about this spell needs to buy some free action potions. God, even the hunters in our guild figured this out and they're finally starting to beat shaman in duels.

486 to 514 damage / 430 mana is terrible damage.  The kicker is a 50% slow (movement) for 8 seconds on a 6 second timer.  Best this spell get is 510 to 540 /470 mana on a 5 second timer (15 talent points for that). Is there any sort of diminishing returns on the slow?  If not, there's your solution right there.  I could live with it being haved per shock.  It'd make my pvp a bit more difficult (ok, quite a bit more), but I could live with it.   Frost shock is our solo pvp bread and butter. Earthbind totem is not a problem for someone with the ability for abstract thought.  Once someone gets a shaman out of their optimal range for the situation, the fight's over.  Can't go toe to toe with a rogue/warrior, can't stand back and fire with ranged DPS.   

I all expect you all to now go out and kill yourself a shaman. 

Edit: Actually now that I ponder it a bit mroe, I give a rats ass if they nerf it into oblivion.  I find myself relying on the spell only to tag runners in group pvp.  1v1 pvp isn't a common enough experience to really care that much if my efficiency drops.   In return I ask that mana tide totem not be placed after 10 points of completely wasted talents.  (who the hell relies upon healing stream or mana stream totems, ever?)

Warriors are decent in PVP in the high levels. They get Fear immunity, Intercetp (like charge, but takes rage, and usable in combat), Some really nasty damage if arms specced, oh yeah, and fucking execute.

Basicaly for a warrior to excell in PVP they need to NOT be defensive specced, usually use a two hand weapon, and have engeneering, for items such as the net-o-matic.

I am a combat rogue, and when I end up one on one with a warrior I win 4 out of 5 times. Some times their two handers just do to much damage, and if you get below 20% health, your toast. Execute is insanly nasty.

If rating all the classes for PVP out of 1-10, I would probably put warriors around 6 or 7.

*Edit*

For large scale PVP warriors are not so fun, as you spend a lot of time waiting for the two sides to close.

I'm protection specced, so I just don't bother. While I have some nice toys, such as concussion blow and improved revenge, the central problem is lack of DPS (especially burst DPS). This is why the only sane warrior build for PvP is a massively slow, hard hitting weapon, using mortal strike (an instant attack, but 31 talent points to reach) and ideally a high crit chance. Nor is warrior durability anything special, armor means nothing against magic and the innate HP advantage is marginal. We're durable against melee, but that's really only important against other warriors (most rogue specials also go through armor).

We can beat rogues because of one ability, overpower, which triggers off the rogue advantage of enhanced dodge rates but can't be dodged itself. Once again you want a massively slow weapon because overpower is an instant attack.

Bloodrage is actually 10 rage + 1/second for 10 seconds. And if you want free action potions take up fishing rather than alchemy. The real limitation is fishing 4 oily blackmouths for 15 seconds of PvP glory.

So for myself I refuse all duel requests. I'm not a great PvP player, and Australian lag doesn't help either, but I'd rather start without a handicap. As for battlefields it remains to be seen. If there's a lot of close quarter fighting, confined area's, warriors might be alright. There will be PvE foes even in battlefields, but that's a little sad. If it's open area work I'm planning on basically playing escort, charge and stun anyone who comes too close and then let the ranged people finish them while I fade back behind the lines.

If I learned anything from DAOC it's how pointless a tank is in PVP in a  game with no collision detection and taunting doesn't work on other players.

Thats funny, because tank groups dominated that game for half a year at least.

Really?  I find it hard to believe that armsmen, warriors, and heroes (the only pure tanks as opposed to hybrids like paladins who have other uses in groups) ever dominated PVP in DAOC.

There was an era where heavy/light tanks (not hybrids) were absolutely dominating 8v8 PvP in DAOC.  This was due to a few realm abilities, mainly determination, which made them impossible to CC.  It might have actually lasted longer than half a year now that I think about...

Casters were considered mostly useless, and only 1 utility caster was ever used by any of the really effective gank groups ( out of a group of 8 ).

For Mid a group would go something like:  Warrior/Zerker/Savage/Savage/Healer/Healer/Skald/Shaman

For Hib:  Hero/Hero/BM/BM/Bard/Bard/Druid/Druid

Light Tanks aren't hybrids technically, but comparing with WoW they're more akin to rogues than Warriors in that their job is to do melee damage rather than take a lot of hits.  The point I was trying to make was that while leveling up in PVE a primary tank's job is to take the agro so you'll get damaged rather than the healers or casters.  When you get to PVP you can't do that any longer.  Your main function in a group doesn't work.  The only reason I can see a tank dominating in a group in PVP is because they're usually the least important target so they're going to live the longest.

In shadowbane warriors also sucked (for large scale conflicts).  Ranged combat ruled.

I don't think you can compare DAOC to WoW, but let me at least address this.

Why is it that tanks take aggro and get damaged rather than healers or casters?  Because they can take the damage.  Hence, in PvP, they can take the damage too.  Paladins can arguably take more damage than warriors, but they can't do the DPS that a warrior can.  So with a warrior you have something that's hard to kill but you can't ignore because they are damaging you non-trivially.  This sets up an interesting choice: kill the easily-killed but higher-threat casters and healers, or the warrior who's damaging you less but will take longer to kill?  By the time you kill the casters that are doing you in, the warrior might have you low enough that it doesn't matter, because you just lost the battle.

And PvP is all about interesting choices.  That's why I think you're wrong about the original statement (blocking and taunting are all a warrior has to offer in WoW).

If you are a melee type in these games, you accepted your fate long ago. Yours is to no to reason why, yours is but to do or die.

Protect your casters, kill the enemy's healers, and be willing to die more than anybody else in your group. That's your job. Don't like it? Play a faggy elf hunter then and leave the grunt work for us.

Jayce I hate to say but this seems pretty straight forward to me.  Warriors are hard to kill true - but root them or snare them, and their remaining ranged attacks won't compare in threat to casters. 

Regardless, kill the casters - healers in particular first.  Once these are gone - tanks while difficult to kill - are now missing support (heals, buffs, dps).  I don't see any interesting choice here - fighters should be ignored and killed at the end.  In shadowbane my priest was fully specced for.... constitution lol.  Since in any fight I was top on the kill list. 

I have not done WoW pvp in scaled combat - so I am extrapolating from Shadowbane.  Maybe the same dynamic does not play out but based on the comments above - so far it appears to (I admit Intercept is an interesting twist - which never existed in Shadowbane).

You may be right about this, as I'm far from heavily experienced in WoW PvP.  I have done a fair amount of it for my level, though, so it's pretty much true from my perspective at least. 

I think the difference in WoW versus other games is that warriors do have some rudimentary crowd control (stuns, snares) and a few dots (rend, deep wound) and other abilities not strictly related to damage or survivability.  But someone more experienced may come along and clarify (read: tell me I'm on crack).  If so I'll concede the point and do as Paelos suggests  :-)

Oh god yes. If my berserker wasn't rooted, stunned, snared and kited by every caster on the fucking field, it was perforated by a scout I had no fucking hope of ever catching up to.

Gee, it's like a knight marching out on the field of battle when there is a musket line facing him or something. How far-fetched, never would have happened that way in reality!

Your own fault for not going FOTM hurlbat aracoix rogue zerker.

Hey, I had one of those.  I'm pretty sure the hurlbat build was based off warrior, however.  (I could be wrong, it's been a while)

My minotaur zerker didn't have too many problems in pvp except when dealing with annoying as hell druids.   Generally though, I've had fun playing both melee and ranged in large and small scale PVP.  Both come with their unique annoyances.  One from being able to be taken out of fights seemingly at a whim and the other for the "shit I blinked, I'm dead" factor.

Gee, it sounds like a lot of fun to pay a monthly fee to get slaughtered!  That reminds me, my WoW character hasn't had to take a shit in over 3 months of playing.  We need to add an un-fun "sitting around taking a crap for 10 minutes every day" mechanic to WoW just to make it more realistic.

Jpark,

Your not on crack.  In small GvG battles not rooting my warrior and taking the warrior out is a mistake.  In PvP I generally go two swords and can generally chew through a mage or warlock in about six hits.  Rogues I do not fear, though a skilled rogue is about a 50/50 shot.  Paladins are nothing.  If the other group only concentrated on the casters on our side, it would probably boil down to closer to a draw.  Right now though, a shaman is a thing to be feared.  Especially if they are full of mana.  My guildmate decimates everyone he fights.  Only class he has issues with are druids.

That's why I haven't played a pure tank in any mmorpg since DAOC.  Hitting taunt and taking damage isn't a particularly exciting job.  More power to the people who enjoy doing it because until these games start changing the basics of their combat systems it's pretty damn hard to have a group without them.  No elf hunter for me though, since I'm not fond of pet classes.

The beauty of warrior group pvp in WoW is dispells. All you need is a priest or paladin and you are basically immune to root if they are on the ball. And warriors are pretty evil in GvG combat due mostly to mortal strike. Low-cast-time-heal-spam is a GvG staple and MS just cuts right through it. Very nasty. Overall though, the warrior will only as as effective as his dispeller lets him be. Otherwise you're rooted and, welll... rooted.

Unlike most level/class based games, in this case you really can say "If played really well..." and that goes for just about any class. Its just some classes are easer to play well than others. Paladin = Easy to play well. Warlock = Hard to play well.

I'm sure you're very good at playing your warrior.  Still, before someone gets around to killing you they're going to have to kill any healers in the group first or you'll be pretty hard to kill or root.  Also, for however much damage you're doing a mage is probably doing more with AOE.  They have to be the next target.  You can't heal and your dps isn't as high as a lot of the other classes.  You have armor, high hit points, and limited CC.  Whether or not you fear rogues is neither here nor there as the rogue shouldn't be facing off against you until he's killed the casters.  If the first thing he does in a GvG battle is try to take on a warrior head to head he probably isn't too skilled.

I'm not trying to take anything away from Warriors, I just wish these games had more ways of allowing tanks to keep the enemy from getting at the healers and casters in PVP so you could play your role as meatshield just as you learned to do in PVE.  Otherwise you've spent 60 or however many levels developing a playstlye that just doesn't work when you get to the PVP.

As a random side note, mobs in encounters in EQ2 PvE will occasionally yell, 'Kill the mage!' and all the mobs in the encounter will turn on the mage, and attempt to make beetle paste from him.  They'll do similar things for priests.  It doesn't happen all the time, just occasionally.  And if you don't know the language, you have no idea what they just said.  8)

Alkiera

Said a different way - only a fool takes on the tank first.


Or a reason to take the tank out first (which I'm sure was implied above).  DAOC had "intercept" and a special ability that allowed a shield user to block for a teammate.  I'm not aware of WoW having either of these abilities but seems like two good additions to the Defense line of skills.

Yes it's too bad.  CoH says Tanker taunts will work in pvp.  That is a big difference.

Even in shadowbane, most folks never fully explored warrior abilities.  For example, in that game the warrior could "hold the line' and create an invisible barrier across a stretch of land that blocked pvpers from passing into the back field of his team.

So... it sounds like they need to add to the warrior arsenal.  Otherwise, with the possible exception of intercept, I see little here in this thread that tells me warriors will be any more relevant than they were in shadowbane.

Kill casters first people.  The only debate - a weak one - is whether mages or healers should be killed first.  Meanwhile, warriors will be watching their root timers.

Hold the line is useless in my experience.  I thought it was great shakes too when I first heard about, but in practice:
1 - you need a lot of warriors
2 - you need a choke point.  Open ground means that people just go around, necessitating you breaking the line up.  Even in a doorway or castle gate, the death of one warrior from a distance means the line is useless.
3 - it does nothing about nukers and archers acting from a distance.  It just means you are on a DIP mission (Die in Place)

No one I ever PvPed with in SB used it.


From my perspective, it looks like the debate in this thread means that's hardly a foregone conclusion, just your opinion.  Mine is that in WoW at least, warriors can muster enough dps to at least make it a question.  The root issue has counters, so it's not simply a matter of "cast root, profit".

I agree that taunt working in PvP would be the bee's knees, but I hardly think it's game breaking.  Especially given that the only really effective way for it to work is that you make it a form of mind control (you can only attack what's at the top of your hate list), removing some of the human factor that makes PvP more interesting than PvE. If you don't go that route, you will be able to mitigate maybe two swings per taunt, if that.  That's worth doing, but it's not so monumental that it makes warriors useful if you currently consider them worthless.

Speaking of Shadowbane:

Anyone try stacking?

Might be a bad idea since WoW's AoEs aren't limited to hitting only 10 people at a time.  It'd take one mage blinking in, hitting their AE frost root, and kiss that stack goodbye.

GHEYEST STRATEGY EVAR.

Yup you need a joke point.  Go figure.  My bud used it often in pvp.  His warrior build using this tactic eventually got nerfed.  Which is recognition of sorts - after the build became the dominant build on the server that included a few other tricks.

As for my "opinion":  You target the tanks - I'll target the casters.  We'll see over time which tactic plays out well.

The tactic that plays out well will be mine, which is: do what the situation calls for. 

Concrete rules generally don't work, and if they do then your game sucks.

It also assumes that priests are willing to act as healers in PvP. A shadow specced priest has superior DPS to a warrior or through heals and shields probably has higher survivability. The druid and shaman likewise have powerful nukes and other fun PvP toys such as root and snare. Stand the line and heal the warrior or skirmish using your own abilities to get the kills that generate PvP points, I think a lot of people are going to pick the latter.

That brings up another memory of DAOC, back when clerics could do a lot of damage by putting most of their points into smite.  It was hard enough as it was to find clerics for a group since healers tend to be an underplayed class.  With a bunch of the clerics speccing smite it became even harder to find a cleric who was actually any good at healing.  Mids and Hibs cried nerf because the clerics had become casters in chain, but the albs cried even more because it was a pain to put together a balanced group with so few healers around.  Smite of course got nerfed to the point where nobody would use it anymore, and since people who made smite clerics weren't especially interested in playing healers to begin with many of the clerics were abandonded or respecced into buffbots and it was still hard to find a healer in Albion.

There are two reasons I bring this up.  One, while it's nice that not all characters of the same classes are going to be specced and played the same way, in my opinion too much diversity can water down the basic concept of the class.  And two, if you a play a priest who's going to try to outdamage a warrior you'd better let everyone know that when you try to join their group because they probably invited you so you could heal them.

They will - and I predict it will fail. 

Doing damage is candy.  Solo builds are candy.  They provide immediate gratification.  This played out in SB before.  Priests could do kick ass damage in SB - and the early builds on the server did just that.  But those priests most sought for pvp battles by guilds that dominated the server in pvp skirmishes focused on healing not damage.

So let's keep this thread in mind.  I am saying that:

1.  Warriors will be on the bottom of the hate list in pvp battles of scale.
2.  The most useful priests in the game will focus on healing, not damage, in these skirmishes.
3.  Top of the hate list will be Casters - in particular Healers.

And while you're assessing the situation trying to decide what action it calls for, your group mates are getting beaten on.  One of the reasons it's good to have an idea of what the high priority targets are is because in most situations in PVP, every second counts.  Concrete rules don't work 100% of the time, but they're typically the best course of action.

I've been asked to pass this along:

Strategy that evolved from the Horde strategizing their way around a numbers disadvantage in near-nightly large scale warfare going back and forth between Southshore and Tarren Mill.

Five warriors join up in a group, then as the two groups are skirmishing in lines, the warriors all advance at once, charge straight into the heart of the enemy line, and all activate that fear shout they have that is normally used to get rid of adds.

Damn near every time, those fuckers will fly everywhere. Not only will the line be compromised (creating a rout chain-effect) but there's an automatic flurry of free kills as the friendly line devours any suckers unlucky enough to get feared forward into their maw.

Alliance has actually been having a problem recently because of Paladins. Paladins don't have the same kind of group PvP functionality as warriors, and are mainly just good at keeping themselves alive. When shit happens, they just shield up and tend to themselves, and many people joined the alliance as Paladins when they were of the mind to play a tank, so the Horde has a much healthier supply of Warriors with all their very beneficial goodies.

Cenarion Circle has a lot of warfare, so we get to understand warfare paradigm on a macro-level scale.

Thanks for this.

The challenge for me in these games is coming up with a warrior pvp build that works.  I notice the warrior can spend 11 talent points for a shout AoE that causes "daze" for 6 seconds.  Very interesting (I forget which talent tree that comes from).

Your comment on the Paladin is noteworthy.  Much.  While some f13 folks don't agree - hybrid melee classes like Paladins (or scrappers in CoH) have caused a lot of problems for warriors given their sometimes overlapping roles.  The hybrid tends to dominate in all but the most extreme needs.  Interestingly, the Horde does not have any those damn Paladins - making the warrior role much clearer.

Way back when I argued before beta that Paladins were 'selfish" (on the Blizzard boards doh).  Their abilities, ironically, seem to promote individual survival over group.  I have not played a Paladin - I may be wrong - these are my impressions.

Fury I believe.

I'm still trying to figure out a good talent spec for both PvE and PvP, mostly tilted towards PvE since my main character is on a "normal" server. I'm mainly specced in Arms now, with a handful of points in fury and defense for perks I like (like Cruelty, Improved Shield Block, etc).

Try it with 1 warrior or priest and an invis pot.

Speaking as a 60 rogue:

VS a sword/board warrior i have no chance for the most part.  My 5 point cold blood evicerates hit for about 800 damage, and even using all of my tricks i can't wear them down fast enough before im finished.

VS a 2h weapons warrior it really comes down to pure luck, my 23% dodge chance really works against me here as one overpower crit can easily turn the tide and two means certain death.

VS a dualwielder i can usually win, not enough defense like the sword/board war and not enough offense (in a rogue vs warrior fight this mostly means overpowers) to outlast me.

This is vs decently equipped lvl 60 warriors, before 60 i had very little problems with any warriors.  Just like rogues though, warriors are very gear dependant so i don't recommend them to people who dont enjoy raids as you wont do nearly as good with green gear.

N-N-N-N-NECROPOST  :dead_horse:

Okay, from reading the AB thread, we're discussing group PVP from a warrior perspective and how much it sucks.  Well, I think it's time to re-examine Warriors and their role in Group PVP, so I'm going to ressurect this post to discuss it furthur, as opposed to creating a new topic.

I'm a level 60 Warrior on the Alliance Side.  I'm also a fairly stock MS/Reaper guy, although I do have 15 points in protection (Hey, I like to 5 man stuff sometimes).

I also play on a PVE server.  Now I know that I'm going to get some snickers from the PVP server guys, but I would submit that when you're playing BGs, that the difference in quality amongst the higher levels of players is much closer than you'd think. While sure, if you took Johnny Hunter, who spends his time farming in Tyr's Hand on a PVE server, he's going to be pretty terrible in PVP. But when you're playing guys who are using ventrillo to coordinate attacks against PvE bosses for the first few times, coordinating and readjusting tactics to win, I think with a few weeks/months of straight BG combat to learn what attacks work well in PvP (Hamstring) vs don't (Taunt), then you can pick it up fairly well.

So here are some of my thoughts about group PVP, in no real order:

1. Know your spec:

It's okay if you're a protection spec warrior in PVP, really.  You know need to know what skills you have, and where they're going to help, and where they're not going to help.  Remember, any warrior who has the end tree talents has a way of converting rage into damage instantly.  This is our front loading of damage, and virtually every warrior has one.  Play this to your advantage, to jam on huge(ish) damage. However, it's the procs, and our skills that make us interesting.

If you've put 31 points into Arms, here are some advantages you now have:
a. With Mortal Strike, all healers just got worse, especially healers with a limited mana pool, like Shamans and Paladins.  Put it on whatever is being healed usually, that's your priority.
b. Improved hamstring is great.  Use it try to proc an immobilize.  This is death to rogues, and melee classes.
c. Deep wounds sucks in raids, but play it to your advantage in PVP. If your opponents aren't taking you out of combat, make them pay by making their rogues unable to vanish easily.
d. Improved Overpower means you are most Rogue's Daddies (see a pattern?).

31 points in Fury (I know the least about this tree, sorry):
a. you're probably dual wield. Use your faster weapon speed to target casters when you can. Pummel is your friend when the opponent is obviously trying to fear you. Since you're probably in berzerker stance, that means you get death wish too.
b. Improved Intercept means your job is to ping pong back and forth and stop runners.  Makes a spell interrupt in a pinch too, good when fighting distance healers.
c. Out of all the skills I miss, I miss Piercing Howl the most for PVP.

31 points in Protection:
a. You have a 2 second silence.  With that, you are probably one of the best anti-casters around.
b. Since you're using a shield for shield bash, you're the highest armored guy around. Use that edge to throw yourself into slightly more dangerous situations. Sure, Armor doesn't work against Magic, but you had that problem anyways with a 2H weapon. You're negating warriors/melee shamans/hunters/rogues.
c. Concussive blow doubles as a spell interrupt in desperation.
d. Don't be afraid to swap into defensive stance and use disarm.
e. For that matter, don't be afraid to swap to defensive stance and use shield block to try and stay alive, if your teammates are getting close, and can at least get into range and get a jump on your killers.

2. Move.

This isn't PvE.  Don't just wail on one target.  Always be assessing your combat.  If you're taking down a rogue, and 3 guys are also "helping", then look around.  Is there a healer skulking around?  A shaman ready to cast chain lightning?  A Mage who just rode in on his horse?  You have Intercept, use that to meet the new opponent head on.  Don't worry, let your friends kill the rogue.  It will be worth it when you've kept the whole group alive. Killing blows are useful, but are not the point.
 
3. Make your opponents not move.

Hamstring everything. Trust me, it's a bigger hindrance than you think. It has a low rage cost for a reason. Also, consider using your AoE Fear. Against a bunched up group, you can really gum up a planned attack.  Does that work all the time?  Hell no, probably a 30% success rate for me.  But it's a skill you rarely use, doesn't take a crippling amount of rage to blow, and has a decent-ish cooldown rate, compared to Retaliation/Shield Wall/Recklessness. And when it does work, and better yet, when you do it with multiple warriors, it's beautiful to see the your opponents scattered and fail their morale check, heh.

4. Assist your healers.

Complaining about healers not helping you? Well, sometimes you have to save them a few times first. Look for players who are attempting to heal people.  This includes non-shadow specced Priests, and Druids. Paladins are iffy, naturally. If they are attempting to heal people, mark them, work with them, love them.  Save them from Rogues, hamstring pursuers, etc.  If you're lucky, the healer will remember you, and return the favor.  If you're not, at least you get some free licks on an enemy that thought attacking the priest is a free kill, maybe even a cheap HK.

To be brutally honest, find some people who like to PVP in your guild, or in PVP fights, that seems to play when you do.  Make friends with them, make arrangements to work together.  They may not always be around, but a friend who can heal, and dispel roots/poly, is worth their weight in gold.  In return, you keep the heat off them, and help them gain HKs at more than a glacial pace.

5. Stance Dance.

If you're going to PVP, you're going to have certain PVP-centric skills available at every stance. For instance, Battle gives you overpower. Defensive gives you Disarm. Berzerker gives you Berzerker Rage and Whirlwind, your only Instant AoE. Have points in tactical mastery, and be prepared to swap stances as situations change.

6. So you're a group's personal bitch.

So the Horde really likes to target you. You may have to sit back and "hide" in the middle of the pack, waiting for your opportunity to charge/intercept in the middle of a fight and begin swinging. Failing that, in places like WSG and AB, where there are graveyards, it may help to be the last one to come to an engagement, as it were.  Let a fight develop, before engaging your choice, when they've already spent their Roots/Polymorph.  You have charge/intercept again, you can make your presence felt quickly. It's been said earlier in this thread, you're only as good as the guy that dispells root/poly/snares off you. But if there's no one that does that, you can at least even the odds a bit by making them blow their wad on someone else? 

7. Consider changing tactics against one trick ponies.

Some PVPers like to use the same tricks over and over again, and that makes them think they're good. If you can identify specific patterns, AND you can do something about it, consider doing so.

For instance, in WSG, I was fighting a warrior who wasn heavy defensive spec.  As a result, he tried to use his skills to his best advantage, and that included using disarm.  Upon death, I had in my inventory a pair of gloves with a cannot be disarmed ability.  Sure, I lost some agi and stamina, but I was also able to shrug off his disarm, throwing his plan into disarray.  The same applies to riposte using rogues.

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Okay, that's all I got for now.  I do have a question now.  How do you deal with Hunters?  The last few I've fought have gotten REALLY good at defensive mind games, dropping the freezing trap and then lobbing arrows.  If I charge, I get frozen.  If I hang back, he throws either the disorient, or worse the sleep arrow.

Hunters were one of the few classes I never had too many problems with, up until 1.7. Even in 1.7, my basic pseudo-kiting strat seems to work decently. All of this assumes an even playing field, 1-on-1 scenario where they don't have too much range to begin with.

 My first priority is to get rid of the f'n pet. That bastard is a DoT sitting on your ass while you deal with the hunter and his melange of anti-pursuit options.

On the open field, they'll get off an improved-concussive-shot and usually follow with aimed shot while the pet charges you: you're screwed. The best way I've found around this in AB is to use the terrain to my advantage. If you see a hunter coming in, stick near a nearby building or, failing that, a handy wagon or tree stump. When he stops to open fire or sics his pet on you, step inside the building or interpose the wall/stump between you and him. You're now free to beat up on Kitty while the hunter receives Line-of-Sight errors. Just keep that wall, stump or wagon between you and him and there's nothing he can do. Usually, they'll close some of the distance when this happens.

At this point, Kitty is your problem. Fear or hamstring first, then beat on it. Mind your Line of Sight. When the hunter is within 15 yards or so, you have two options. If the two of you are alone, I tend to want to get rid of Kitty first; alternately, Just keep the Line of Sight obstructed and beat on the pet. The hunter will either recall the pet or enter melee. If they don't, kitty goes down. If they recall the pet, play LOS games until they either run away or enter melee. If they run, mission accomplished. If they enter melee, just plain old beatdown seems to work fine.

Alternately, if your LOS-blocker isn't so good, you need to negate his ranged attack in a different fashion. Hamstring Kitty and make like you're pursuing the hunter - start running right at his leather-clad ass. If he backs up, then weave, he's probably dropped a trap.

Now, here's the important part. Disengage from the hunter and kill the pet that has by now caught up to you. Run around within the hunter's 8-yard minimum range, slowly plinking away at the pet. If you happen to cross paths with the hunter, hamstring him and continue kiting. Hunters have this dead-zone between their minimum range and melee which you can use to piss them off.

If you're lucky, you've taken down their pet before you're down to half life. In 1.7, this is iffy, since pets have so much more armor/HP. The only answer I have here is to hope your kiting is distracting the hunter from attacking anyone else. Once the pet goes down, attempt to engage in melee. At this point, most hunters seem to go into panic/run-away mode, content to drop a frost trap and disappear. If you're not frozen, I just beat on 'em until they fall or get rescued.

Hunters are all about LOS and range. Negate LOS and range, and they're puffballs. Hell, being pissy about line-of-sight works against pretty much any ranged opponent.

DAOC prior to the Trials Of Atlantis expansion was the Dark Age of Tankalot. As mentioned, there's this realm ability called determination that severely cuts down the duration of CC; together with high resists (resists reduce CC time too) it results in unCCable tanks/light tanks that roam the field basically unstoppable. Tank damage went up with itemization, tank damage is non interruptible like casters, tank damage goes up much higher on lightly armored targets. The typical group was melee /melee /melee /speedbot /buffer /healer /healer /endsource or mezzer. Casters only became powerful again after TOA gave them ridiculous damage that pierces resists with crazy reductions in cast speeds and increases in range.

The WOW warrior is extremely item dependant. The DPS/performance of a warrior in blue gear as compared to one with full purple is huge. A decent weapon like the arcanite reaper/ice barbed spear is a basic requirement. Good weapons are like The Unstoppable Force, or Spinal Reaper. With a good weapon the dps of a skilled warrior can match the dps of a rogue. With epic armor the toughness of a warrior is head and shoulder's above a rogue in equivalent gear.

The WOW warrior is very versatile. It have a very good snare with no timer. It have charge/intercept which allows them to close distance very well. It have multiple means for fear immunity. It have AE fear, It have AE debuffs. It have melee 'silence' with disarm. It have fearsome 30min abilities that can turn the course of a battle - like recklessness and retailation. It have the best finishing blow ability in the game with execute. With talents, a warrior can have Mortal strike, which is invaluable to PVP because that debuff makes it almost impossible to keep the victim alive as all healing is cut by half. With talents, the warrior can also have a 3 second silence on 12 second timer, an AE daze shout, an instant 30% extra hp, am instant 5 seconds stun, a 50% chance dispel with high damage attack. You can't have all the abilities, but overall a well designed warrior can be very versatile and powerful without a doubt.

The main problem with warriors are BGs like the Alterac Valley where the lone charging warrior gets cuts to bits before he can hit anyone, but I have seen guilds demolish the field with a warrior vangard. The warriors are buffed and dedicated healers focus on keeping them alive/negative effects cured, while they charge in and do the AE fear AE daze, follow by picking off the soft targets. AE casters follow in behind to spam the area with AE nukes. Unless the otherside is very well disciplined, a rout is almost guaranteed.

Moral of the story? Warriors in a organised group / raid play an important role, and is anything but underpowered.