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Topic: PvP and Warriors in WoW (Read 13926 times)
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jpark
Terracotta Army
Posts: 1538
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I love this game but my play time has been almost non existent for it. So my ingame knowledge is quite weak.
Question 1: How are warriors faring in pvp in WoW? Question 2: How do warriors deal with snare and root attacks? Question 3: Are warrior taunts abilities wasted in pvp?
I don't see any defenses by way of abilities or talents to defend against root or snares for warriors. From my days in Shadowbane melees often got owned by ranged attackers. Blizzard has done a great job of improving the warrior class (which even EQ2 did as well I admit - that both games did this tells me something about the warrior class I played in EQ lol) but I have trouble seeing how he is not simply rooted and nuked.
I am intrigued that CoH says warrior / tanker taunts will actuall work in pvp.
(I am checking WoW forums for answers but there is so much "noise" that any signal of intelligence is hard to detect)
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« Last Edit: March 08, 2005, 08:27:16 AM by jpark »
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"I think my brain just shoved its head up its own ass in retaliation. " HaemishM.
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Paelos
Contributor
Posts: 27075
Error 404: Title not found.
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Warriors do fine in a 1-1 situation or in a group rush. Against many opponents they suck, even if they are much lower casters. They are very prone to stuns, roots, and various caster crap that will ruin the day. They don't have heals like pallys, so they can be easily toasted from a distance by spells that ignore the great plate armor they get. One of the best things I have as a warrior is a trinket that gives me invulneratability to all spells for 30 seconds. You get it as a high end armorcrafter. I'd love to see the look on a casters face when they try to root me, and I close the gap to hack them to pieces with intercept.
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CPA, CFO, Sports Fan, Game when I have the time
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Rasix
Moderator
Posts: 15024
I am the harbinger of your doom!
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What trinket is this? The high end blacksmithing one I know of is just 10 seconds of anti-fear.
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-Rasix
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Threash
Terracotta Army
Posts: 9171
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If there is a trinket that gives inmunity to all spells for 30 seconds im dropping 300 enchanting today to pick up armorsmithing. Thats an insta win against any caster in the game.
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I am the .00000001428%
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El Gallo
Terracotta Army
Posts: 2213
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I love this game but my play time has been almost non existent for it. So my ingame knowledge is quite weak.
Question 1: How are warriors faring in pvp in WoW? I am not very good at PvP no matter what class I play. As a warrior, I do all right in most 1v1 situations, especially where I get to initiate the fight (i.e. can lead with a charge, that gets me in their face with some free rage). I play on a PvE server, so I am probably not fighting against the best PvPers around. Intercept is a big help as it can keep you from being kited. Question 2: How do warriors deal with snare and root attacks? free action potions for me, I also have some boots that break root that I wear when PvPing. Long cool down though. If you have no self-respect, you coudl always roll a gnome; they have a recial ability that breaks roots. Not sure on the cooldown though. Question 3: Are warrior taunts abilities wasted in pvp? Taunts don't do anything in PvP. People used to bitch about this all the time in beta, and were told, incredibly, that having warrior taunts work for even 3 seconds be too un-fun for other players to allow because nobody likes to lose control over their character. This in a game where much, much longer fears, charms, and roots are ubiquitous in PvP. /sigh
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This post makes me want to squeeze into my badass red jeans.
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Triforcer
Terracotta Army
Posts: 4663
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If there is a trinket that gives inmunity to all spells for 30 seconds im dropping 300 enchanting today to pick up armorsmithing. Thats an insta win against any caster in the game.
Seconded- I'd drop my profession for armorsmithing for this too, and I'm a mage. I'm almost positive the OP is dead wrong on this though.
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All life begins with Nu and ends with Nu. This is the truth! This is my belief! At least for now...
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Rasix
Moderator
Posts: 15024
I am the harbinger of your doom!
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If there is a trinket that gives inmunity to all spells for 30 seconds im dropping 300 enchanting today to pick up armorsmithing. Thats an insta win against any caster in the game.
Seconded- I'd drop my profession for armorsmithing for this too, and I'm a mage. I'm almost positive the OP is dead wrong on this though. I'd cry. I'd cry a lot. I just dropped 276 armorsmithing last week. Sucks to lose use of the anti-fear trinket, but I'd rather just contract out my armorsmithing needs (they don't exist) and not have a dead weight tradeskill that costs an assload of cash to raise.
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-Rasix
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Paelos
Contributor
Posts: 27075
Error 404: Title not found.
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I was wrong, it's the anti-fear trinket. My bad. Everyone can unbunch.
EDIT: It ups all resistances by 10, thus my confusion.
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« Last Edit: March 08, 2005, 09:53:14 AM by Paelos »
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CPA, CFO, Sports Fan, Game when I have the time
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Hoax
Terracotta Army
Posts: 8110
l33t kiddie
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All PvP server warriors should have alch..
Free action potions Rage potions Heal potions Spell damage type absorb potions Invuln potions
hell everyone should have alch... :-D
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A nation consists of its laws. A nation does not consist of its situation at a given time. If an individual's morals are situational, then that individual is without morals. If a nation's laws are situational, that nation has no laws, and soon isn't a nation. -William Gibson
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MrHat
Terracotta Army
Posts: 7432
Out of the frying pan, into the fire.
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All PvP server warriors should have alch..
Free action potions Rage potions Heal potions Spell damage type absorb potions Invuln potions
hell everyone should have alch... :-D
I never found a single situation where a free action potion was > than a health pot.
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Jayce
Terracotta Army
Posts: 2647
Diluted Fool
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At 40 I'm starting to do a lot more PvP and hence I'm getting better at it.
Berserker Rage can prevent people from fearing you, or break you out of it. However, you better be in berserk stance to begin with, because you can't change stances when feared.
One of the worst things for a warrior is a mage who frost novas then blinks, and turns around to nuke. However, you can mitigate this somewhat by charging/intercepting the mage, hamstringing him so you can catch up to him even if he blinks, and hoping the nuke volley while you're nova'd doesn't do you in (or do more than you can heal). Pummel is also nice, or shield bash if you are going that route (personally I try to avoid the shield).
If you are protection spec you have even a few more tricks, like improved revenge (stun), and improved shield bash (silence).
Roots are the same, but a druid can't nuke you as badly as a mage. Either way, your best bet is to survive your time rooted and then intercept them and keep them stunned/hamstrung as long as possible.
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Witty banter not included.
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Fargull
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Question 1: How are warriors faring in pvp in WoW? Question 2: How do warriors deal with snare and root attacks? Question 3: Are warrior taunts abilities wasted in pvp? 1) Generally 1x1 I am okay (though Mages can eat my lunch if they know what they are doing, or a Shadow Spec'd priest). In GvG, I soak damage. For some bloody reason everyone targets me which means the rogue and mage in my group kill off the other groups healer. I drop about half the time depending on healing on myside. We win the battle though.... 2) Free Action potions as mentioned. Still trying to get a full suit of Thorium to see how that works... 3) Taunts are PvE.
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"I have come to believe that a great teacher is a great artist and that there are as few as there are any other great artists. Teaching might even be the greatest of the arts since the medium is the human mind and spirit." John Steinbeck
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jpark
Terracotta Army
Posts: 1538
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Question 1: How are warriors faring in pvp in WoW? Question 2: How do warriors deal with snare and root attacks? Question 3: Are warrior taunts abilities wasted in pvp? 1) Generally 1x1 I am okay (though Mages can eat my lunch if they know what they are doing, or a Shadow Spec'd priest). In GvG, I soak damage. For some bloody reason everyone targets me which means the rogue and mage in my group kill off the other groups healer. I drop about half the time depending on healing on myside. We win the battle though.... You must be a Night Elf ;)
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"I think my brain just shoved its head up its own ass in retaliation. " HaemishM.
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Kail
Terracotta Army
Posts: 2858
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Question 1: How are warriors faring in pvp in WoW? Question 2: How do warriors deal with snare and root attacks? Question 3: Are warrior taunts abilities wasted in pvp?
Personally, I find warriors to be lacking in PvP. I haven't played to the endgame yet, though, and my highest warrior is only in his mid-twenties, so this may all be irrelevant at high levels, but I find the role of the warrior in grouped PvP is really limited. Warriors, in my experience, have two strangths: One, they've got a lot of hit points, and two, they can manage aggro better than other classes. There's no real way to manage aggro in PvP, so the only thing warriors are left with is the fact that they take a lot of whacks to knock down. Since just about every other class has some kind of advantage (better damage, healing ability, etc.), I find that generally my warrior is fairly low on the priority list when engaging in large scale PvP. On the plus side, this means that if you don't make yourself too obvious of a threat, you probably won't die. I've been on the defending side of several fairly major raids where I haven't been killed once, because the attackers were all going after the mages and shamans (What is the plural of shaman? Shamen?). On the minus side, I do feel a bit useless. One on one, I haven't had as much experience with. I know most of my other characters can knock down warriors of equivalent level with a bit less difficulty than most other classes (rogues have trouble with them, I understand, though). My warriors always have a ton of trouble with rage generation in one-on-one PvP. My shaman once went toe-to-toe with a warrior one level below him, tossed a stoneskin totem, a firebiter weapon, and just flayed the warrior in straight up melee combat (didn't even have to use a heal). I don't know if this particular warrior was wildly incompitent (I know I'm not noticeably uber or anything), but it just seemed to me wildly unbalanced that a hybrid caster in leather armor could smash a warrior in 1-1 melee with only the aid of a few cheap buffs. Personally, I think a warrior's real strength is in instances, but in PvP, I don't really see their usefulness. Especially for the Alliance, who can field Paladins, which seem to be a lot more effective in PvP.
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Fargull
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You must be a Night Elf ;)
Troll Warrior 49th level in a holding pattern till three group mates catch up.
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"I have come to believe that a great teacher is a great artist and that there are as few as there are any other great artists. Teaching might even be the greatest of the arts since the medium is the human mind and spirit." John Steinbeck
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Jayce
Terracotta Army
Posts: 2647
Diluted Fool
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Personally, I find warriors to be lacking in PvP. I haven't played to the endgame yet, though, and my highest warrior is only in his mid-twenties, so this may all be irrelevant at high levels, but I find the role of the warrior in grouped PvP is really limited.
It's definitely more mitigated at high levels. For one, you get berserk stance at 30 and with that comes intercept. You also get bloodrage at some level (I forget which), and that mitigates your rage generation problems. It's on a cooldown but if you find yourself coming up short, it gives you 20 rage for the cost of a few health, and I have so much health at 40 that I've never noticed the cost. You also get pummel (stop casters from casting like shield bash, but can be done with a weapon), execute (burn all your rage for a killing blow) and a few talents that enhance PvP like improved revenge (stun) and improved overpower (50% chance to crit). In essence, warriors are less survivable than paladins but do more damage, more survivable than rogues but do less damage. Against shamen, I'm not sure. The only shamen I've fought lately have been higher level ones who took off half my health (usually 1k+) with one frost shock, so that's not exactly a good comparison. As mentioned earlier in this thread, mages and other classes that root are a problem, but not insurmoutable ones.
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Witty banter not included.
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Sky
Terracotta Army
Posts: 32117
I love my TV an' hug my TV an' call it 'George'.
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For some bloody reason everyone targets me which means the rogue and mage in my group kill off the other groups healer. Heh. My first hunter's mark always seeks out the priest. I then go for soft targets. I completely ignore paladins...unless they are on me, then I just drag them into an ambush or run, not worth wasting my time waiting out his immunities. (What is the plural of shaman? Shamen?) Shamans. Troll Warrior 49th level Didn't I read in the ingame lore (in a book) that night elves are the twisted forms of trolls? Blue skin, big ears... higher level ones who took off half my health (usually 1k+) with one frost shock Literal jubilation on the Shaman forums because Frost Shock wasn't nerfed...
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Rasix
Moderator
Posts: 15024
I am the harbinger of your doom!
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It's (frost shock) not nerfed because there's no sensible way to change it. It's already got a piss poor damage/mana ratio. It's on the same goddamn timer as the rest of our shocks, so a shaman's only recourse to keep someone off them is to spam frost shock. We can throw in a fire shock if the person is an idiot or maybe an earth shock if they're a caster or for a nice parting blow(higher crit chance for most shaman), but otherwise you've got to keep up the spam on intelligent players to keep them out of melee (or keep them in for hunters). Believe us, we're not doing it for the damage.
Anyone's that bitching about this spell needs to buy some free action potions. God, even the hunters in our guild figured this out and they're finally starting to beat shaman in duels.
486 to 514 damage / 430 mana is terrible damage. The kicker is a 50% slow (movement) for 8 seconds on a 6 second timer. Best this spell get is 510 to 540 /470 mana on a 5 second timer (15 talent points for that). Is there any sort of diminishing returns on the slow? If not, there's your solution right there. I could live with it being haved per shock. It'd make my pvp a bit more difficult (ok, quite a bit more), but I could live with it. Frost shock is our solo pvp bread and butter. Earthbind totem is not a problem for someone with the ability for abstract thought. Once someone gets a shaman out of their optimal range for the situation, the fight's over. Can't go toe to toe with a rogue/warrior, can't stand back and fire with ranged DPS.
I all expect you all to now go out and kill yourself a shaman.
Edit: Actually now that I ponder it a bit mroe, I give a rats ass if they nerf it into oblivion. I find myself relying on the spell only to tag runners in group pvp. 1v1 pvp isn't a common enough experience to really care that much if my efficiency drops. In return I ask that mana tide totem not be placed after 10 points of completely wasted talents. (who the hell relies upon healing stream or mana stream totems, ever?)
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« Last Edit: March 08, 2005, 02:30:45 PM by Rasix »
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-Rasix
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Morfiend
Terracotta Army
Posts: 6009
wants a greif tittle
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Warriors are decent in PVP in the high levels. They get Fear immunity, Intercetp (like charge, but takes rage, and usable in combat), Some really nasty damage if arms specced, oh yeah, and fucking execute.
Basicaly for a warrior to excell in PVP they need to NOT be defensive specced, usually use a two hand weapon, and have engeneering, for items such as the net-o-matic.
I am a combat rogue, and when I end up one on one with a warrior I win 4 out of 5 times. Some times their two handers just do to much damage, and if you get below 20% health, your toast. Execute is insanly nasty.
If rating all the classes for PVP out of 1-10, I would probably put warriors around 6 or 7.
*Edit*
For large scale PVP warriors are not so fun, as you spend a lot of time waiting for the two sides to close.
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Kageru
Terracotta Army
Posts: 4549
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I'm protection specced, so I just don't bother. While I have some nice toys, such as concussion blow and improved revenge, the central problem is lack of DPS (especially burst DPS). This is why the only sane warrior build for PvP is a massively slow, hard hitting weapon, using mortal strike (an instant attack, but 31 talent points to reach) and ideally a high crit chance. Nor is warrior durability anything special, armor means nothing against magic and the innate HP advantage is marginal. We're durable against melee, but that's really only important against other warriors (most rogue specials also go through armor).
We can beat rogues because of one ability, overpower, which triggers off the rogue advantage of enhanced dodge rates but can't be dodged itself. Once again you want a massively slow weapon because overpower is an instant attack.
Bloodrage is actually 10 rage + 1/second for 10 seconds. And if you want free action potions take up fishing rather than alchemy. The real limitation is fishing 4 oily blackmouths for 15 seconds of PvP glory.
So for myself I refuse all duel requests. I'm not a great PvP player, and Australian lag doesn't help either, but I'd rather start without a handicap. As for battlefields it remains to be seen. If there's a lot of close quarter fighting, confined area's, warriors might be alright. There will be PvE foes even in battlefields, but that's a little sad. If it's open area work I'm planning on basically playing escort, charge and stun anyone who comes too close and then let the ranged people finish them while I fade back behind the lines.
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Is a man not entitled to the hurf of his durf? - Simond
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Velorath
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If I learned anything from DAOC it's how pointless a tank is in PVP in a game with no collision detection and taunting doesn't work on other players.
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trias_e
Terracotta Army
Posts: 1296
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Thats funny, because tank groups dominated that game for half a year at least.
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Velorath
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Really? I find it hard to believe that armsmen, warriors, and heroes (the only pure tanks as opposed to hybrids like paladins who have other uses in groups) ever dominated PVP in DAOC.
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trias_e
Terracotta Army
Posts: 1296
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There was an era where heavy/light tanks (not hybrids) were absolutely dominating 8v8 PvP in DAOC. This was due to a few realm abilities, mainly determination, which made them impossible to CC. It might have actually lasted longer than half a year now that I think about...
Casters were considered mostly useless, and only 1 utility caster was ever used by any of the really effective gank groups ( out of a group of 8 ).
For Mid a group would go something like: Warrior/Zerker/Savage/Savage/Healer/Healer/Skald/Shaman
For Hib: Hero/Hero/BM/BM/Bard/Bard/Druid/Druid
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« Last Edit: March 08, 2005, 08:05:10 PM by trias_e »
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Velorath
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Light Tanks aren't hybrids technically, but comparing with WoW they're more akin to rogues than Warriors in that their job is to do melee damage rather than take a lot of hits. The point I was trying to make was that while leveling up in PVE a primary tank's job is to take the agro so you'll get damaged rather than the healers or casters. When you get to PVP you can't do that any longer. Your main function in a group doesn't work. The only reason I can see a tank dominating in a group in PVP is because they're usually the least important target so they're going to live the longest.
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jpark
Terracotta Army
Posts: 1538
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If I learned anything from DAOC it's how pointless a tank is in PVP in a game with no collision detection and taunting doesn't work on other players.
In shadowbane warriors also sucked (for large scale conflicts). Ranged combat ruled.
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"I think my brain just shoved its head up its own ass in retaliation. " HaemishM.
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Jayce
Terracotta Army
Posts: 2647
Diluted Fool
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The point I was trying to make was that while leveling up in PVE a primary tank's job is to take the agro so you'll get damaged rather than the healers or casters.
I don't think you can compare DAOC to WoW, but let me at least address this. Why is it that tanks take aggro and get damaged rather than healers or casters? Because they can take the damage. Hence, in PvP, they can take the damage too. Paladins can arguably take more damage than warriors, but they can't do the DPS that a warrior can. So with a warrior you have something that's hard to kill but you can't ignore because they are damaging you non-trivially. This sets up an interesting choice: kill the easily-killed but higher-threat casters and healers, or the warrior who's damaging you less but will take longer to kill? By the time you kill the casters that are doing you in, the warrior might have you low enough that it doesn't matter, because you just lost the battle. And PvP is all about interesting choices. That's why I think you're wrong about the original statement (blocking and taunting are all a warrior has to offer in WoW).
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Witty banter not included.
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Paelos
Contributor
Posts: 27075
Error 404: Title not found.
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If you are a melee type in these games, you accepted your fate long ago. Yours is to no to reason why, yours is but to do or die.
Protect your casters, kill the enemy's healers, and be willing to die more than anybody else in your group. That's your job. Don't like it? Play a faggy elf hunter then and leave the grunt work for us.
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CPA, CFO, Sports Fan, Game when I have the time
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jpark
Terracotta Army
Posts: 1538
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The point I was trying to make was that while leveling up in PVE a primary tank's job is to take the agro so you'll get damaged rather than the healers or casters.
I don't think you can compare DAOC to WoW, but let me at least address this. Why is it that tanks take aggro and get damaged rather than healers or casters? Because they can take the damage. Hence, in PvP, they can take the damage too. Paladins can arguably take more damage than warriors, but they can't do the DPS that a warrior can. So with a warrior you have something that's hard to kill but you can't ignore because they are damaging you non-trivially. This sets up an interesting choice: kill the easily-killed but higher-threat casters and healers, or the warrior who's damaging you less but will take longer to kill? By the time you kill the casters that are doing you in, the warrior might have you low enough that it doesn't matter, because you just lost the battle. And PvP is all about interesting choices. That's why I think you're wrong about the original statement (blocking and taunting are all a warrior has to offer in WoW). Jayce I hate to say but this seems pretty straight forward to me. Warriors are hard to kill true - but root them or snare them, and their remaining ranged attacks won't compare in threat to casters. Regardless, kill the casters - healers in particular first. Once these are gone - tanks while difficult to kill - are now missing support (heals, buffs, dps). I don't see any interesting choice here - fighters should be ignored and killed at the end. In shadowbane my priest was fully specced for.... constitution lol. Since in any fight I was top on the kill list. I have not done WoW pvp in scaled combat - so I am extrapolating from Shadowbane. Maybe the same dynamic does not play out but based on the comments above - so far it appears to (I admit Intercept is an interesting twist - which never existed in Shadowbane).
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« Last Edit: March 09, 2005, 07:47:52 AM by jpark »
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"I think my brain just shoved its head up its own ass in retaliation. " HaemishM.
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Jayce
Terracotta Army
Posts: 2647
Diluted Fool
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I don't see any interesting choice here - fighters should be ignored and killed at the end.
You may be right about this, as I'm far from heavily experienced in WoW PvP. I have done a fair amount of it for my level, though, so it's pretty much true from my perspective at least. I think the difference in WoW versus other games is that warriors do have some rudimentary crowd control (stuns, snares) and a few dots (rend, deep wound) and other abilities not strictly related to damage or survivability. But someone more experienced may come along and clarify (read: tell me I'm on crack). If so I'll concede the point and do as Paelos suggests 
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Witty banter not included.
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HaemishM
Staff Emeritus
Posts: 42666
the Confederate flag underneath the stone in my class ring
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If I learned anything from DAOC it's how pointless a tank is in PVP in a game with no collision detection and taunting doesn't work on other players.
In shadowbane warriors also sucked (for large scale conflicts). Ranged combat ruled. Oh god yes. If my berserker wasn't rooted, stunned, snared and kited by every caster on the fucking field, it was perforated by a scout I had no fucking hope of ever catching up to.
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Sky
Terracotta Army
Posts: 32117
I love my TV an' hug my TV an' call it 'George'.
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If you are a melee type in these games, you accepted your fate long ago. Yours is to no to reason why, yours is but to do or die. Gee, it's like a knight marching out on the field of battle when there is a musket line facing him or something. How far-fetched, never would have happened that way in reality!
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Shockeye
Staff Emeritus
Posts: 6668
Skinny-dippin' in a sea of Lee, I'd propose on bended knee...
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Oh god yes. If my berserker wasn't rooted, stunned, snared and kited by every caster on the fucking field, it was perforated by a scout I had no fucking hope of ever catching up to.
Your own fault for not going FOTM hurlbat aracoix rogue zerker.
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Rasix
Moderator
Posts: 15024
I am the harbinger of your doom!
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Your own fault for not going FOTM hurlbat aracoix rogue zerker.
Hey, I had one of those. I'm pretty sure the hurlbat build was based off warrior, however. (I could be wrong, it's been a while) My minotaur zerker didn't have too many problems in pvp except when dealing with annoying as hell druids. Generally though, I've had fun playing both melee and ranged in large and small scale PVP. Both come with their unique annoyances. One from being able to be taken out of fights seemingly at a whim and the other for the "shit I blinked, I'm dead" factor.
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-Rasix
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El Gallo
Terracotta Army
Posts: 2213
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If you are a melee type in these games, you accepted your fate long ago. Yours is to no to reason why, yours is but to do or die. Gee, it's like a knight marching out on the field of battle when there is a musket line facing him or something. How far-fetched, never would have happened that way in reality! Gee, it sounds like a lot of fun to pay a monthly fee to get slaughtered! That reminds me, my WoW character hasn't had to take a shit in over 3 months of playing. We need to add an un-fun "sitting around taking a crap for 10 minutes every day" mechanic to WoW just to make it more realistic.
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This post makes me want to squeeze into my badass red jeans.
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