f13.net

I haven't been in a single group yet that didn't behave as if we were two to five soloist that are splitting xp.  Try to explain to them the simple concept of having a designated puller, with everybody focusing on one mob at a time, and they're like "huh, wtf?"  Never mind trying to teach them what /assist does.  I was (very briefly) teamed up with a lvl 10 Rogue last night that thought having a Priest in his party meant that he could now take on a camp of five lvl 10 Gnolls.  The first time he did this (out of many), I thought "you stupid jackass" and hit the heal key before he got attacked because I knew what was coming up.  (I knew they would all aggro on me and intended to run to the guard tower.)  However, he was so outmatched that he died before my 2.5 second casting time was over.  Then he was like "wtf, why didn't you heal me?  You could have mentioned that you weren't ready."  He's obviously mastered the ability to roleplay a suicidal, arrogant, ignorant, worthless turd like nobody else in a world full of jackasses could.

I stuck around for a few more of his pointless deaths to play with my brand new Shiney, the Ressurection spell, before going off on my own.  Unfortunately, every single group experience I've had in WoW has been like this.

Anybody else have any horror stories to share?  Come on, you know you do.

I can't group with pickup hunters anymore. They have ruined about three instances for me now.

Ding ding ding, we have a winner!

I don't group with any hunters I don't know.  (none)

Bad hunters make me a sad panda. Getting flashbacks from being an eq necro, most of whom had no clue how to contribute to group gameplay (hint: I don't mean twitching goddammit, I stopped grouping after that crap).

My one time grouping for non-pvp reasons was with my undead warlock, and the two guys I was with (troll warrior and undead mage) were very wary about him, being a pet class. Apparently there are a lot of newblers playing both pet classes. When I not only didn't wipe us, but instead held us together so we did the whole instance with the three of us, and two of us were too low for it....they invited me to their guild on the spot, heh. So my one grouping experience was pretty good. With sheep and my blueberry pet, we had no crowd control problems at all, which is why I find it ironic that so many people complain about pet classes getting out of control with aggro.

Hell, one of a hunter's strong points is controlling who gets the aggro. Insane.

My 2 buddies and I usually take on most elite quests together. While going though Dun Garok a week or so ago, we picked up and extra warrior who needed a group. He proceeded to charge in and break several of my saps (leading to a wipeout). I explained how I needed things done, and we had no more problems. He was so impressed that we "used tactics" that he asked about joining Bat Country. I directed him here, so maybe he is reading this. Welcome!

It's actually pretty surprising that some people learn from you.  I mean, I did have a great SM group once where I basically had to train the hunter and mage.  But once I told them the sap/sheep/mark the one to kill trick, we blew through the rest of it.

I'm not good with teaching stuff. If I were in a bad instance group (if I did instances, heh), I'd probably just log off and play some guitar rather than train some newbler how to play the game he's been playing for a few months. It's good that you guys take the time to teach 'em, though.

I come by it naturally- I played an Enchanter in EQ. I had to explain WTF was going on in probably 70% of my pick up groups. If people kept breaking my mezzes after being warned not to, I would leave the group in the middle of the combat. I almost always got apologetic tells from the competent players in the group begging me to group with them again sans fucktards.

There are tons of players who don't look beyond what their character is doing. Some of them are morons, but many of them are just ignorant. If they don't catch on after the 1 free pass and explanation, they get the boot.

I go sour on pickup groups because of greedy players. Paladins rolling on nice leather armor drops, mages rolling on nice daggers, and priests rolling on leather stuff too. They are rewarded with me hearthing out in the middle of a big pull and letting them all wipe. Fucking bastards.

That is the main reason I try to keep my contact with anyone outside of my monkeysphere at a bare minimum. That shit pisses me off. I may switch to Master Looter if that ends up being a problem.

.

Gotta love how the Starcraft kiddies have taken the concept of zerging into uber-instance raids.  And I'm sure it's true.

"I became a mage/thief/hunter/whatever to do damage"

That's a quote I hate seeing. When I explain aggro and your roll in it you sit up and pay attention, not whinge about how the group mechanic the game is based on doesn't flow with your vision. When this happens I tell the player that I'll heal them as often as I'd heal the warrior with the same amount of aggro (and if they get lucky a few times I tell my bro not to sunder). It never seems to work as when I ress them they're too busy bitching at me for not blowing my mana healing them that they wont listen to reason. But it's fun. :P

I hate dicks that roll on shit they would want IF they didn't have something better. Few days ago we're rolling SM with a mage and hypnotic blade drops. I ask him if he wants it and he says "yes" so we both roll and he wins. Later on I look at his profile and see he hasn't equipped it. I ask why and he says "I like my sword better". If it wasn't so damn common I'd have felt the overwhelming urge to strangle the stupidity out of him. Had other moments where I bothered to see what people had when going in only to have the paladin bitch that I let everyone roll for a mail piece that was inferior to what he was wearing, and suchlike. Retards.

Remember, you're dealing with battle.net vets here....BNET!! These dipshits have only hacked, griefed, and used templates in Diablo 1 and 2, zerged in that shitfest called Starcraft, and used the same fucking strat every time they play Warcraft 3.....and most of them came to play WoW, intelligence not included.

I haven't had too many bad experiences with pickups, actually.

One event does stand out though.  While going through Zul'Farrak in the 40's a hunter in our team failed to restrain his pet, and pulled 6 or 7 mobs at once.  Being the healer, I blow all my mana trying to keep the group alive.  We weren't able to hold all of them though, so eventually decide to run.  Being able to fear, I'm the only one who makes it out.  The same hunter almost does too, but falls short by about 50 feet.  He then proceeds to complain, demanding to know why I didn't heal him (after my mana was gone) while we were running from his overpull.  I decided to leave at that point.

Yeah, the attitude of said hunter is the general problem within the WoW populace. That and, particularly with warlocks and and hunters, since they can solo so well, they feel kind of invincible in groups. I actually had a friend I played WoW with, who I now refuse to play online with, cause he was such an impatient prick and thought he didn't need a war, because "hunters are so uber, omg!!"

.

Ya, I took my guild through Maraudon last night.  We had guildies: me 60 rogue, 51 war, 51 shaman, 47 druid.  We needed one more, a cloth wearer so we don't waste drops, and we got a warlock.  He did exceptionally well.  He also had nothing to complain about because we got that sword that increases spell crit % and like 4 cloth drops that he could wear.  Asshole.  At least he didn't roll on stuff he couldn't wear.

Don't forget the flip side to this kind of discussion - it's nice to see folks new to the genre.

There are bad players and there are naive players.  I expect a lot from both categories in WoW.  Obviously, many new to the genre are playing WoW.  However, the solo content in WoW has a down side - many players may never develop proper grouping skills.  Even in EQ with constant grouping it took a long time to develop proficient grouping skills.  This really points to the benefit of belonging to a guild to facilitate getting groups with players who have similar play styles.

Some of you guys, I'd hate to play with.
You froth at the mouth and go rabid, when people don't play right.
There are so many words and terms above, that I haven't the faintest idea what means, even though I've been part of this community since the days of LtM. Simple reason? I'm a casual player and always has been. I've always liked the theory of what mmogs could be, but neve felt like sinking serious time into any of them (Puzzle Pirates don't count).
I've played a wee bit of UO, AO and COH, but never EQ and never as part of groups/guilds, so I don't know my role in a group.
I picked a hunter, so that I could solo. I wouldn't mind joining a group for some quests. If I met with somebody willing to teach, I'd listen.
But if I met with somebody, who screamed and raved becuas I hadn't vast EQ-like experience or hadn't read the guide to my class (where do I learn this stuff?) it would probably sour me on grouping and the game eventually.

Bear in mind that apart from the kids, B-net morons and experience mmog refugees I'm sure that WoW attracts a number of casuals like me, who aren't opposed to doing our best in a group, but simply have no prior experience with the dynamics.

It's simple really, just do what your class does best when in a group and don't be stupid.

If your not a class that takes a lot of damage, don't go stand toe-to-toe with a baddy.  If your class does lots of ranged damage then stand the fuck back and do ranged damage.  Don't pull mobs when no one else is ready.  Infact unless someone else says "Go pull a mob" and is talking specifically to you, don't ever pull a mob.  Don't expect that the group exists to support you, you are not the reason for the groups existance.  Don't wander off alone to go check out whats 'over there', it's not a good idea in horror movies and it certainly isn't a good idea in MMOG's.

Everything else just comes with experience.  Grouping with other people is a learned skill.  Their skills and abilities affect your skills and abilities and it takes time to understand the concequences of those changes.  Because you know how to play solo does not mean you know how to play grouped.  If you can realize that you need to pick up a whole new set of skills to play effectively grouped you are already well on your way to being on a LOT of peoples friends list.

I think this would be the operative thing that would separate you from the unwashed mass.

I do agree, some people in this community are too quick to turn on teh hate, but I think most even here would take the time to give a few pointers to people new to the grouping experience, providing they listen and don't get mad or self-righteous about it.

I usually take the time to tell people what they should be doing if they don't know. One mage we party with sometimes was brand-spanking new to the genre and we taught him about aggro, saving mana, counterspell, and the correct use of polymorph. That's really all you need to know in most cases as a mage besides IAE spam and a trained monkey could do that. A hunter is even easier. Hit the main mob, don't draw the aggro, and put your pet on passive (and turn off growl ffs). Simple really. Once you get better you can try pulling and whatnot, but until then you just need to not fuck up the aggro as you hurt stuff and the group will benefit. The healer does not want to waste time and mana on your ass, that's what the tank is for. The tank doesn't want to have to make an extra effort to keep the aggro on the mob you decided on making your special friend, they have a hard enough time fighting DPS aggro on the main mob and healer aggro on all the others.

Really it's all about attitude. You can wipe us in the easiest part of the whole damn instance because of naivette and I'll just pull you aside and tell you what you did wrong. We will try again, but your response to my advice will determine if it's with or without you. Deny it was your fault and you're out on your ass. If you refute my point you're out on your ass. If you make an excuse that doesn't include an "it wont happen again" you're out on your ass. Make an effort to learn and we'll spend the time to get you closer to being up to speed. Groups aren't charities, you pull your weight or you get replaced by someone else who will.

This struck a chord with me - At the moment, I'm worried about going in to work tomorrow, or peeling the potatoes or putting the washing out - You know, just in case a Son of Arugal leaps out at me and eats me whole.

I mean, what is it with those guys ?

My rule is, unless you absolutely know, and I mean KNOW the healer blew it, never ever backtalk your healer in the group. I've never had to critique a healer and i probably never will, usually because i don't group much at low levels.

Also, compliment them on a job well done after a particularly bad pull.  Healers don't get enough recognition.

Your avatar got all sexy when I wasn't looking.

Edited to remove offensive comment. I am not worthy.

Did I say that they are never wrong? No. I said too often they get shit over nothing. There are bad healers out there, I'm sure they exist. However, for the one time a healer fucks up I'd wager there are 20 other times where some jackass overpulls and sinks the raid. So like I said, unless you KNOW they were wrong, keep it shut. I don't like pissing off people that are willing to play a class I never would.

Decaff please. 

Bad communication and overpulls tend to doom a pickup group faster than anything.  I'd say about 5-10% of wipes might be healer error, that's about it.  On higher level instances, healing is often on a razor's edge.  One really bad mistake and your healer or someone in the group is going to bite it and cause a nice cascading effect of everyone in the group getting shitkicked into next week.  That's probably why you should go a bit easy on them unless they're a complete screw up.  And it ALWAYS looks like it was the healer's fault.   Still, it doesn't give them carte blanche to be a complete dickhole.  They have to realize there's more to the group synergy than just them.

I just got into teh ub0r on my server (healers get rushed in if you don't suck).  Due to their lack of priests and other healing classes, I'm never the primary healer for a raid, but often I'm assigned to a secondary tank.  Here's a hint hunters, rogues and cloth classes: you overaggro on 3 or so mobs and you're likely to die before I can target you and hit my 1.5 sec heal.  It's amazing how fast higher level mobs chew through the lighter armored classes.

Ohh and on the subject of bad pickup groups, last weekened I did Dun Garok with my baby rogue.  The group was 3 warlocks, 1 priest and me.  2 of the warlocks went into the building with their pets on aggro.  One warlock kept out his stupid  fellhound even though we needed more taunting.  One warlock pulled without telling anyone and without being in the same room.  2 wipes for them, 2 vanishes for me and a drop from the group the second the quest was completed.   Goddamn morons.

How are healers supposed to stop mobs from aggroing on them from healing?  My Priest is only lvl 12 as I only play it sporadically, but every time I try to heal somebody that has more than one mob on them, the adds all come after me.  For this reason I stick with Renew for healing others whenever possible, but sometimes a real healing spell is required.

What's with the Fade to Shadows spell?  It's supposed to make it less likely for mobs to aggro on me, but I haven't noticed a difference.  Maybe I am just using it wrong?  I've tried both casting it before a heal, and casting it when mobs are on me, with no discernable difference in either case.

I think that when you cast it, mobs are already moving towards you.  It drops you a few aggro levels on their table.  The thing is, if Mr.Friend hasn't done any damage to them I don't think it will work properly.

Or I'm completely full of shit.  My priest is only 12 too, but I haven't bothered to group with any one.

Haven't played a WoW priest yet, but from past experiences, managing aggro as a healer is a 'feel' thing. You learn to time things to either avoid taking all the aggro or at the least avoid adding to it once something is on you. Don't run around, DON'T attack the critter that is eating your face- stand still and let the others in the party try to get it off you. Throw a heal on yourself (or better, keep some potions on standby) in case they are slow.

If you are the only party member with healing abilities (especiially if the others are melee classes), you are going to be expected to be the healer. Best thing to do is explain to the party what you are capable of doing, so the don't expect priest-type healing from a shaman or druid who is not specced that direction.

Sensitive today are we? Typically when you quote someone, then state a reference to something exactly opposite, you're taking issue with the point.

Like Way says, if you get aggro as a healer, just sit there and try and keep yourself alive until someone pulls it off you.  Use crowd control if you have it and it's appropriate for the situation (outdoor root for druid, stoneclaw totem for shaman (it sucks but if you have the mana it's at least a couple hits off ya),  shackling undead for mages).   Being a priest helps because you can PW:S yourself and that's not going to add the crap load of aggro that spam healing yourself will. 

Another thing is to avoid early overhealing on a tank.  If they're on multiple mobs, let them get to half or below before you start healing.  Don't worry about keeping them topped off, just alive will do.  Avoid spam healing if you can.  Priests are much better suited for the multiple mobs beating on the tank.   PW:S avoids a lot of the hate lock that a healer can get when a tank just can't keep all of the mobs wrangled in.   

Nah... he's not being sensitive, Paelos.  That's just typical love from a Scot.  We've even discussed adopting you.

I heard monkey's make terrible pets.

We throw things.



Naughty, evil things.

He means poo.

Duck!

I'm a priest, so I'll see if I can give ya a little help on how to play one.

First off, when I say "greater heal", I also mean "lesser heal" and "heal".

First thing is that healing someone gives you aggro on every mob that has any aggro on them. So whether they are beating something into the dirt, or the mob has just run into the engagement, you will get aggro on it. What is needed here is for the tank to get enough aggro on every mob in the engagement for your healing aggro to stay below their aggro. That's why tanking is not so easy and why the difference between a good tank and a bad tank is so big. Any chucklefuck can keep aggro on a single target as well as they are able (sometimes you just can't do it), it's harder to keep aggro on everything.

About fade, it lowers your aggro on every nearby mob by a set amount for the duration... the aggro will all come back once it ends so your tank needs to be on the ball. There were some calculations that showed it was more than flash heal, but less than greater heal aggro. What this means is that if you get adds and use a greater heal, fade wont get them off you. It also seems buggy in that it makes it harder for the tank to get aggro than otherwise if you fade and it doesn't get rid of the mob. Because of this, try to only fade when you have small aggro, otherwise just stand there if you can and wait for the tank to get aggro back (they really should taunt it at this point, but if things are really bad it might be on cooldown... plus it can be resisted, which always sucks), otherwise shield up and if you can spare one drink a potion/pop a healthstone over healing for less aggro. A trick I like to use in a duo when we get adds is to fade to pull the mobs onto the tank for their aggro generating convenience, and will mean that you can flash heal during the fade and still avoid aggro.

One more tip... where you stand makes a big difference in how easy it is for the tank to get aggro off you. The first is in making sure they can easily see that you have aggro. For this stand back far enough that the mob will have to move through the warrior in order to get to you. This will alert the warrior to the fact that they have lost aggro. The second method I use in a duo and that is to stand on the opposite side of mobs, this way the warrior will know he has lost aggro when they spin around to get at you (this is also important against backstab mobs... you don't want your tank to have to spin around). How close you stand is also important. If you can take a few hits you want to be close enough such that the warrior doesn't have to move to get aggro (besides spinning around, and if they are using the mouse for turning that will take less than a second), but if the mobs are too tough you need to be far enough away for the tank to be able to taunt before the mob gets to you. Also, don't run around when you get aggro regardless of whatever else you will be doing. You wont be able to outrun a mob if it's dangerous enough to force you to run, and if you're just running around in circles/random you will never get out of its hit range... all you achieve is making it harder for the tank to get at the mob.

Thanks for the great tips!

Making an "on me" macro is also worth considering. Basically a button that puts a message in party chat indicating you have aggro. It means that secondary healers can heal either you or the tank and lets the tank know that there is a loose mob. A good warrior is aware that they're pretty useless without someone keeping them upright so will make protecting their healer a high priority. And if a couple of rogues or mages die in the process then at least there's someone to rez them back in.

I think that the warriors are usually concentrating so hard on holding aggro of 2-3 mobs that they don't notice a mob is on the healer.

Even at L60 I find myself having to vanish-cheapshot mobs that get on the healer so that I can peel it off them because the warriors don't even notice.

That's because our taunt blows ass. Not that i'm a bitter warrior.

I've found pickup groups in WoW particularly awful.  People running off, no one communicating, everyone pulling, people fucking off soon as their quest objectives are achieved.  Tons of newbie MMOers methinks.

I love it when a healer has an "on me" macro. The 2-3 mobs I may be holding down are ultimately less important than the one thumping the healer because that cuts off my flow of heals. And WoW is so chaotic that it can be hard to track all mobs / potential adds (especially with those damn visual obstructions known as tauren). It's also a decent way of reminding a bad tank what their primary duty is.

Warrior taunt is not bad, gets the job done, and making combat chaotic allows "off-tank" to be a viable role. Although so many people are fixated on doing DPS that they don't pay much attention to the wider environment.

Can you (or someone) clarify for me please ?  In what way does it suck ?  Not powerful enough ?

I'm not a Warrior expert but here are some of the issues with Taunt as I've experienced:

• It generates enough aggro to move you to the top of the aggro list but if you aren't generating aggro in other ways (weapon damage, skill damage/effects) you'll quickly move below somebody else on the hate list (e.g. next time a caster nukes).
• It's only usable in the Protection stance which means your damage is reduced, reducing the amount of aggro you can generate through weapon damage
• It can be resisted, especially by mobs higher level than you
• It has a relatively long recycle time so if you lose aggro after just using Taunt you are screwed (well not you but the person who now has aggro is)

I too have some issues keeping aggro.  Taunt works fairly well for me, but as mentioned above, isn't perfect.

I have read that shield bash and sunder armor get the most aggro for the buck.  It's kinda hard for me to tell if that's true "on the ground", but I have been experimenting with it.

Mocking blow only seems to work some of the time, which is odd because it's supposed to work (according to the description) 100%.  Also I've never gotten a stun out of my Improved Revenge even though I'm on rank 2 of it.  Is that broken?

The taunt AOE shout is nice in a pinch but the cooldown is too long to be very useful except in emergencies.

Interesting.  I have a warrior Alt who's just hit the requirements for taunt, so I haven't had a chance (or group) to use it yet.  Seems fairly broken.

Sounds like EQ (until their warrior fix about a year ago).  I wonder if the Paladin is a better tank - since he has options to protect a team mate should he lose aggro.

Also - the above suggests that the 1 handed weapon + shield while good for defense on the warrior - may not produce enough damage to keep aggro?

Damage is not really the aggro tool of the warrior. While it does help, warriors rely mostly on their abilities to tank... sunder armour, revenge, demo shout, and shield bash being the bread and butter of such abilities. It's kinda weird though, they basically replaced the taunt spam with sunder/revenge spam but that's how it is now.

Taunt as I see it is an emergency ability for when you lose aggro despite other abilities and is also the only real way to get adds  onto you if the healer just slammed a big heal on you as they came running in. It's not an EQ equilavent, if that is your point of reference.



Edited to remove the mass of ugly nested quotes...

That's the dilemma.

On the bright side, though, it does encourage the warrior to stance dance and switch weapons often to get the maximum effect.  That's quite a bit better than other games where "hit a and get a sandwich" or "click and stick" is the dominant theme.

Absolutely.

The problem there is that you lose your rage doing that, which consequently sinks the boat on you keeping it together. The class talent in arms that lets you keep rage during switch, tactical mastery, requires 10 points in arms just to get it at an effective rate. It starts to spread the warrior pretty thin on talent points if you want to go defensive spec, but also have decent shouts. IMO, either fixing taunt or removing the rage penalty to switching stances is the way to go there.

If WoW truely is EQ 1.5, unless your tanking the most uber raid or instance the game has to offer, you're better off being a Paladin.  Speculation on my part, have not played  WoW enough to know.

Question:  is hate/aggro built up over time - or is it simply based on the damage done that round?  Does your position on the hate list reflect your actions that round or some history of the combat itself?

Interesting.  Again I just have not played this game much and EQ is my reference.

Remember kids, the master of controlling aggro is that smelly hunter nobody wants to group with. Get aggro, drop aggro, hold it on the pet for a while, then pass it off, they can do it all. Better not invite them along or let them pull.

 :mrgreen:

I've found that the warrior's AOE lightning attack (I forget its name) is also effective, as it gets you on the hate list of mobs that have just showed up (and as such, are the ones that bee-line to the caster after the first heal).

The aggro joggling doesn't work so well in higher level instances; the hunter or the pet seems to die a bit too fast. Helpful in a pinch, but not something you want to count on.

 But... they are the kings of pulling as I have now witnessed.  My gulid uses hunters and lots of freeze traps to make pulling very safe.

I deny the existance of instances in WoW. ;) If I wanted to play that game, I'd still be playing EQ2.

A warrior really gets hammered by higher level mobs. This is because rage generation and aggro are all based on landing blows, which drops a lot if the levels are not in your favor. In addition your specials are resistable (taunt) and most require rage which you're not getting anyway. As a result the warrior generally needs to be the highest level member of the group, and only a level or two off the named.

The taunt model is designed so that it is hard for a warrior to hold multiple mobs. You need to be constantly switching targets and using revenge / sunder / demo shout in defensive mode (which gives a sizeable bonus to aggro on all specials). If you need to grab a mobs attention you need taunt (resistable, 8-10 second cooldown) and a couple of sunders to give you an aggro buffer. It's chaotic and tiring, but is designed to keep combat from becoming static.

Paladins are currently broken IMO. Like shaman they have a single target +aggro effect and another effect that increases the aggro when they land a blow. Their limitation is that they don't have a snap aggro tool like taunt and they have less ability to hold multiple mob aggro. Which means you really want a paladin and a warrior in a group. However initially they could AoE taunt by intentionally overhealing (now nerfed) and they currently have an AoE effect (consecration) which is useable as an AoE taunt. Of course removing aggro from the paladins healing, so they don't compete with warriors in taunt, has given them some healing advantages over priest and druid.

Aggro is like EQ, it's built up over time. The WoW Taunt is different than the EQ one (at least pre-PoP) in that it always moves you to the top of the hate list (assuming it isn't resisted). The EQ one just added a certain amount of hate which is why you often had to taunt multiple times to get a mob to switch to you.

The Paladin vs Warrior tanking debate is kind of complicated. There are definitely pros and cons to both classes in terms of how well they gain and hold aggro. To grossly simplify the differences a Warrior has more tools for gaining aggro but those tools require Rage which can be hard to generate in certain situations. The Paladin has fewer tools but they are more reliable to use since they require Mana.

I'm not sure I'm a big fan of the rage system yet - it seems to hard to gain and too quick to lose.  Though I do like any system that requires a Talent called 'Anger Management.'

Conversations like these are a part of why I don't bother grouping. It gets old so fast, I really don't care about the intricacies of aggro management..I just want to play a game and have fun.

But I guess after you've been playing the same game for so long, you have to have something to talk about.

As a now 60 paladin I can tell you that paladins can't build and hold agro the way a good warrior can. We don't generate enough hate to keep one mob's attention much less a group. I've tanked a lot in small groups and one early crit nuke by the mage or an early heal pulls the mob off me and there's no way in hell I can get it back on me. The paladin taunt proc buff takes a while to build up enough hate (threat they call it in WoW). Even after off tanking a mob in a fight the warrior I group with a lot can pull agro off me at will when he moves to my mob. The best I can do if something is on our healer is stun the mob and start healing the healer. Stuns don't appear to have the associated agro that EQ stuns did either.

What's worse is that paladin heals don't even seem to generate agro like priest heals do. I've played both and a crit heal that would get a priest to the top of the hate list, for me, gets me ignored completely.

Actually EQ's taunt put you at the top of the hate list +1 which is why it was easy to lose agro. The reason you had to taunt multiple times is because it failed so damn much, as people found out when they finally put in a message when you used taunt. A successful taunt always had you at the top of the list.


Paladins have 1 tool, Seal of Fury, and it doesn't work well at all. Even after stunning a mob that is pissed at someone else, it goes back to beating on them after the stun wears off rather than turning on the paladin.

Update on this: I have been using taunt + sunder armor to great effect lately.  And the Improved Revenge stun DOES work, it just works a little differently than most stuns.  It takes a second to "kick in", usually allowing the opponent to finish his/her/its current attack.

Holy Shock keeps aggro better than Fury actually. Having both is enough for keeping a couple mobs on you, but I wouldn't suggest playing Paladins as tanks in the first place. They're better as all around support characters. And if anything, better substitutes for Priests than they are Warriors. Funny thing is though, with the Holy Shock/Fury combo, the Priestadin can hold aggro more reliably (at least with single targets) than Retribution Pallys -- the so called "tank" build.

As for why Paladin heals generate less hate than the Priests, I think it's 40% less hate generation. I may be wrong about that, but I recall that it's something pretty significant. And like I said -- All the more reason to play them as Priests. Not as tanks.

Seal of Fury is a Pally's main aggro tool, though it's much more effective used in combination with other spells. From your description talking about stuns you might be confused with Seal of Justice or perhaps Hammer of Justice. Seal of Fury causes melee damage from the Pally to cause additional aggro. However if you judge it (which BTW acts as an aggro increaser itself) then subsequent Holy damage spells cause additional aggro and a Pally has a number of ways of doing Holy damage (Seal of Righteousness, Seal of Command, Holy Shield, Holy Shock, Consecration, Aura of Retribution, Exorcism, Holy Wrath).

Speaking of which, I started a hunter (orc) on Saturday morning.  He's now lvl 14 with a tiger called Hobbes.  I have spent so much time catassing this weekend it's not real - and the important point here is that I didn't notice the time go by and I had a HUGE amount of fun playing the hunter.

What a great class.

Nope, I'm not confused. I meant that unlike EQ, stuns appear to carry very little agro. I've tried judging seal of fury then using seal of righteousness, and seal of command. None of these will pull agro off a priest who did a big heal or a mage who got a crit nuke in my experience. Seal of Command doesn't appear to count as holy damage for the purposes of agro with judged seal of fury or the agro it adds is very low. Either way even after hitting for 350 with Command I've never seen a mob come off the mage occasionally I duo with if he's overagroed early in the fight with a crit nuke.

Somehow I doubt the damage from consecration is going to generate significant agro unless the mob is currently unagroed. Exorcism of course only works on undead, and Holy Wrath; sorry, I can't see buying all the useless baggage in the holy tree to get that.

Holy skills aren't any more useless than skills in Retribution. It's just that you're thinking of the Paladin class in only one way.

If you're so concerned about the Paladins ability to pull mobs off of people, then Holy Shock generates more aggro than any other skill in all 3 trees. You're never going to be a Warrior, no matter which way you build, but that method is more reliable than any other available to you.

I'm farily happy with my build actually. This all started with my response to the poster who said why bring a warrior for an instance tank when you can use a paladin and I pointed out where paladins fell down on the job compared to warriors.