f13.net

Since the other thread got taken over by OMG fanbioz talk, ill move the spec talk here.


I have to say again that if you are planning an assassination rogue you really should get Improved Sap. It is a GREAT skill. It allows you to CC one player, and still have stealth for a big ambush crit, or a Cheap Shot.
As for Master of Deception, thats more of a "I have extra points" talant. 5 points makes you 3 levels higher, but at level 60, its kind of pointless, for some of the other talants you could get (improved sap maybe?).

You havent said (i dont think) if you are going to be planning on using Daggers or Swords. Since Im a combat rogue, I use swords (or maces) and my main damage output comes from auto attack, sinister strike, and eviserate. While a dagger rogues main damage comes from Ambush, backstab and eviserate.

My 15 assassination (leathality, Crit talant), 31 Combat (blade fury, Adrenaline Rush) and 5 Sub (camoflague) is sort of a max sustained damage build. I do a TON of damage with my sinister strikes, and while lacking the big hits from backstab, I do really good damage. I crit 25% of the time, and my sinister strikes hit for around 150 to 200 with my crits being avarage of 350 and my eviserates hitting for 600-800 with crits of 1200-1500. I do a lot better in PVE, casue of my sustained damage, than a dagger rogue.

I really have fun with my build, but some times it feels a bit simplictic. Once I hit 50 and start pvping even more, I am going to consider respeccing to Assassination/Sub for the high burst damage in PVP.

I'm using pretty much the same build you are, cept i gave up camo and adrenaline rush for cold blood.  The three minute recycle and go-from-half-health-to-dead hit it gives me seemed more usefull than adrenaline rush.

I'll be going dagger once I can get a good enough one to make an ambush build viable.  Like I said, wiggle room is there.  I might as well drop the 5 points in MoD (since it really only helps if you're going to duel a rogue) and put them into improved ambush and sap.   

I do however plan on being a tad more of a sword/ss spammer until I get closer to the end.  One of the main reasons is that I got a Bloodrazor for free off a friend.  That's 37 dps available at level 45.  45-50 will be a damn blur.

I hate you, im 60 and still using a thrash blade.  Lost the stupid roll on the dal'rend tribal charge :(

How does it work at 60? Does it make you undetectable by other 60s (effectively 63rd level stealth)? If that is the case, I can see its uses. I use it now since i am only midlevel (lowish for PvP), so anyone I fight in PvP is going to be higher level generally. I may respec out of it when I get to 60 if it doesn't work against other 60s though.

Not undetectable but people will have to be closer to you to be able to see you, you are still never going to sneak right in front of someone's nose so as long as you aproach from behind its not necesary.

Basically it raises your stealth level, so people have a harder time seeing you. The only time it is REALLY worth it is if you are fighting another rogue, and your both in stealth.

I keep trying to tell friends that rogues aren't that great, except for maybe instance farming.  Of course, my main is a priest. 

Oh well, continue with your theorycraft.

And of course, picking off cloth wearers like you. Unless, of course, something has drastically changed about the game since I left?

There's the official Blizzard boards for off the cuff dismissals like that.

This is probably what you had in mind when you started your uber 1777 rogue, and it's probably a carry-over mind-set from MMO's like DAOC.  Gank from stealth FTW and stealth is a nice security blanket, eh?

But rogue pvp beyond easy-pickings of low-levels is really not that easy at 60.  Both mages and priests usually have their way with rogues.  Warlocks 'in the field' are probably the easiest to take on, but that's because they're farming or leveling with the wrong pet out.

And I think you should put points in Master of Deception if ganking is your thing.  I spent some free time last night punting around 2 rogues who had really poor stealth(all 3 of us being level 60), which allowed me to DOT and DD before they could react.  The popular builds at 60 seem to be improved sap for instance raid utility or high combat for efficient solo SM farming.

Being a L60 rogue, I never expected to be easy at the end.  The current interation of pvp, and battlegrounds I would assume, thrust the rogue into the roll of picking off stragglers. 

Priests do have their way with me, but only because I didn't choose Undead for my race.  "Have their way with me" should be rephrased to stalemate, since I don't get killed by priests, we just go back and forth.  Mages are easy because they're horribly predictable.  Stun them out of stealth, immeadiatly start running to where they would blink to, meet them there with another stun and drop the hurt on them.

Stealth is a blanket.  You get to chose when to attack and who to attack.  However, I do feel kind of useless in 35yd pvp.  But that's why I have imp. sap.  Lets me get behind the enemy and sap with abandon, I love the confusion and panic it causes.

I agree with the warlock statement, they're easy as ass to kill if you get the drop on them.

Currently working up a mage (40) and a hunter for BG, because range is good when there's lots of confusion.

Edit: As I've mentioned before, I've tried all sorts of Rogue builds and come to two must have skills to be successful at WoW:  Cold Blood (for pvp and pve) and Imp. Sap (mostly for PvE).  Cold Blood lets you choose when you want to dump 1.7k damage.  And Imp Sap is nice for the situation above, as well as being beautiful in instances.  I do plan on trying the infamous Seal Fate bug in the next week or so, waiting to get a pair of decent daggers first.

No, actually it wasn't what I had in mind. I was more interested in a frontlines rogue like Morphiend (as an alternative to what I really wanted to play -- a Warrior), but saw that, ultimately, it wasn't playing to the Rogue's strengths. So I gave up. Stealth and gank isn't really my playstyle.

Btw, WotF for teh win.

Yeah, my rogue is a in your face type rogue, relying on stuns and ss + eviserate to kill. Unfortunatly, as I just hit 60, and didnt do much high end instance raids (I soloed to 60. IN YOUR FACE BRUCE.) I have a bit below avarage gear. And a in your face rogue needs some good gear.

I am also playing my Warlock who is lvl 36 and has full rested exp. I will be leveling him when im not helping guildies or doing instance runs. The thing is, the battlegrounds are going to sell gear baised on your honor rank, and this gear is just as good (and better) than the high end instance stuff. So Im not going to kill myself trying to get the ubber drop in a 3 hour instance, im going to be mellow, and help guildies and play my 'lock, and do a bit of farming, so that when BGs are release the end of next month, I can just buy a bunch of really good gear.

Put the crack pipe down. Seriously.

Same thing here Morph.

My rogue is 60 and I can't be bothered with raiding at all.  I just spent all my money buying all my friends mounts.  Cerrano is semi retired until BG comes out.

I have a 40 Mage and a 25 Hunter that I'll be playing off and on.  I really really enjoy this game and am thinking about getting a shaman up just to bounce rest exp between them.

I know this thread is essentially a rogue love-fest, but if anybody cares to look over my hunter beastmaster spec, you'll find it here (http://wow.allakhazam.com/profile.html?52337). Basically, its the required 31 points for spirit bond in uber aspect/pet mode, beastial swiftness, concussive/lethal/aimed from marksmanship and precision/dodge from survival. I primarily use Deathmaw (http://wow.allakhazam.com/db/mob.html?wmob=10077) as he's a 1.2s attack pet with good all-round abilities (medium health/armor/damage). I'm hoping that I can pick up a Spire Spiderling (http://wow.allakhazam.com/db/mob.html?wmob=10375) (1.0s attack, higher damage, lower health and armor) soon for pure dps situations. Some better armor wouldn't go unused either. :P

My hunter just hit 25, and I'm planning going marksman first.  How has beastmaster been treating you so far?  How do you fair in PvP?  PvE?

Is beastmaster the 'uber' template? I have a lowbie hunter, but I was leaning towards speccing him Marksmanship instead. I hate pets for the most part, but I like the ranged abilities of the hunter.

As I understand it, if you have a kick ass pet, you can kill stuff non stop pretty much.

Absolutely go marksman first. Beastmaster is all-or-nothing, so you need 31 points to throw at it. Personally, I didn't bother until I had enough for aimed shot and spirit bond (42 points). Since I was using Snarler at the time, I should have waited the extra couple of levels to get Deathmaw. That slowed me down a peg.

Beastmaster is the ultimate PvE build. Spirit bond has an agro management trick which makes it more than just >40dps of damage mitigation. Send your pet to attack and tank a mob, and if you get an add while killing it, you can let the mob chew down some of your health to keep your pet alive, then turn on spirit bond just before you kill the first mob. The agro from the pet heal will cause the second mob to come off you and move to your pet, who is in bow/gun range. By the time you finish the add off, you'll be healed too. Just first aid the pet and repeat. Love.

PvP is interesting too. People nearly always try to take down the hunter and ignore the pet. There are good reasons to do that - the pet doesn't exist when the hunter is dead, and the hunter has higher dps than the pet. If you have spirit bond every hit your pet makes (at level 60) is healing you 40 points of damage. Since the attack speed is so high, the crit rate is so high, and the pet always frenzies for 8 seconds on crit, it is nearly always 30% faster. For a 1.2s pet, you'll be cancelling out 44dps from pet alone. All the while, the pet is putting in pretty serious damage itself. The only downside for hunter PvP is the loss of scatter shot. However, hunter really isn't the class for 1v1 duel type action. In group conflict, played intelligently, you're an extreme menace though.

Edit: I should also point out that with bestial swiftness (there is a point to my having it) and King Bangalash (elite white tiger from SV) you can have your pet chase down a running player on an elite mount. Yeah, the 900g ones. You cannot run away from a beastmaster with the right pet. On anything. Of course, King Bangalash is too gay and elfie looking for most occasions.

Great, thanks for the heads up.  So the different pets have different attack speeds as well?  I thought just their armor changed.  Good to know.

Fast attack speed pets (http://www.goodintentionsguild.info/petinfo#attackspeed)

Right now the battlegrounds are just about finished. They are working on the problem of major lag when over 50 or so people gather in one area. Which they tried to patch yesterday, and didnt go so well.

Right, do you have that crazy cool Track Humanoid mod?  The one that pings humanoids and gives all their info?

What's it called and where do I get it?

I can't stick to a pet, I am trying new ones every few levels to find one that fits best with my playstyle. I'd like a tank pet, since I'm Marksman-heavy, but I tend toward cats. Really, if I were to do it over, I'd probably use a worg from Shadowfang for pve, since I've not seen a big difference between most common pets in combat. My current pve pet (which I haven't used in several levels) is Crabzilla, a blue crabbie. Thinking about a scorpid as a tank pet, dunno.

For my pvp pet, I have a longtooth runner. It took me a while to stop laughing when I send in the runner. Their 'pursuit' speed is amazing, and I find it funny how ridiculously fast they engage when given an attack order. I opened my 3rd stable slot for King B, who everyone raves on about. He is fast, but ghey looking (need matching sequins for my armor, Roy!) Not sold on King B yet, I want to race my Longtooth against him first. I haven't done much pve with King, either, so I'm not sure how ridiculously fast his closing speed is compared to the ridiculously fast longtooth runner. Player-wise, I've confirmed King B smokes a normal mounted player, haven't gone up against an expensive mount yet. Ok, so I spend a lot of time using eyes of the beast and cruising around as my pet...

Talent-wise, I'm going mostly marksman. I started on the Beast tree, for extra pet hit points and then for the two run speed buffs (mine and pet's), and I think I took 5 in improved Aspect of the Hawk just to qualify for the run speed stuff. I forget. I don't think I'll get the top tier ability from any line, though. Mostly take a melange of stuff that's useful in both pve and pvp until I get toward the end of the treadmill and then just focus on a pvp build.

I totally love the hunter, decent amount of flexibility, and it complements my outdoorsy style of gameplay. The only thing that bugs me about the class is that it's unpopular with grouptards. I just added in this last bit because I just made up the word grouptard.

I think you might mean TrackerAssist (http://ui.worldofwar.net/ui.php?id=284) - not just for humanoids, but what it's best for.

Continuing the workout of Irth's big bag o' hunter links:

Pet closing speeds (http://forums.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?FN=wow-hunter&T=77035&P=1)

If you want health and convenience of feeding, pick a bear. If you want armor and decent health, it's scorpids or turtles. Turtles are preferable since the claw nerfing (takes too much focus now) as they support bite. If you want to maintain decent damage (cats and raptors are relatively frail) while still having decent tanking, go with a wolf/worg.

Hmm. I knew all the other stuff, just unclear on closing speeds, thanks for that link (which is the only one I think I didn't also have, heh). Looks like I'm stuck with Bang or levelling up a Swamp Jag, maybe, for a pvp pet. I wish the Runner had a better attack speed. I'll probably stick with him for rp reasons.

If only I had kept Rake or Humar! Too much BS to level them to 44, imo....

I'm trying to come up with a good build for a non dagger rogue that includes improved sap and cold blood and I'm coming up blank.

Here are the points that I know for sure:

Assassination Mastery
Improved Eviscerate   Rank 3
Malice   Rank 5
Ruthlessness   Rank 3
Murder   Rank 2
Relentless Strikes   Rank 1
Lethality   Rank 5
Improved Instant Poison   Rank 1
Cold Blood   Rank 1
Assassination Total:   21

Combat Mastery
Improved Sinister Strike   Rank 2
Combat Total:   2

Anyone got any ideas?  A if I had a decent dagger waiting in the wings, it would be a lot easier for getting improved sap due to getting the ambush skills.  And I'm not sure now that I even want to go ambush/backstab as I'm doing OK without them currently and I like using cheapshot.

Here you go Rasix:

Instead of focusing on the big frontload, you instead on focus on what makes the rogue so shifty (blind, vanish, cheapshot, kidney shot):

Assassination Talents (26 points)

Improved Eviscerate - 3/3 points
Increases the damage done by your Eviscerate ability by 15%.
Malice - 5/5 points
Increases your critical strike chance by 5%.
Ruthlessness - 3/3 points
Gives your finishing moves a 60% chance to add a combo point to your target.
Lethality - 5/5 points
Increases the critical strike damage bonus of your Sinister Strike, Gouge, Backstab, Ambush, Ghostly Strike, or Hemorrhage ability by 50%.
Relentless Strikes - 1/1 points
Your finishing moves have a 1101004800% chance per combo point to restore 25 energy.
Murder - 2/2 points
Increases your chance to hit while using your Sap, Ambush, Garrote, or Cheap Shot abilities by 5%.
Improved Expose Armor - 3/3 points
Increases the armor reduced by your Expose Armor ability by 45%.
Cold Blood - 1/1 points
When activated, increases the critical strike chance of your next Sinister Strike, Backstab, Ambush, or Eviscerate by 100%.
Improved Kidney Shot - 3/3 points
Reduces the cooldown of your Kidney Shot ability by 5 seconds.

Combat Talents (2 points)

Improved Sinister Strike - 2/2 points
Reduces the Energy cost of your Sinister Strike ability by 10.

Subtlety Talents (23 points)

Camouflage - 5/5 points
Increases your speed while stealthed by 15%.
Elusiveness - 5/5 points
Reduces the cooldown of your Evasion, Vanish, and Blind abilities by 1.5 minutes.
Initiative - 5/5 points
Gives you a 75% chance to add an additional combo point to your target when using your Ambush, Garrote, or Cheap Shot ability.
Improved Sap - 3/3 points
Gives you a 100% chance to return to stealth mode after using your Sap ability.
Master of Deception - 2/5 points
Reduces the chance enemies have to detect you while in Stealth mode. 10
Preparation - 1/1 points
When activated, this ability immediately finishes the cooldown on your other Rogue abilities.
Improved Cheap Shot - 2/2 points
Reduces the Energy cost of your Cheap Shot ability by 20.
I used this build for a quite a while, and rather enjoyed it.  But I've switched my L60 to a super grind build (remorselessness + ambush).


Having 3 1/2 min timers on your abilities plus a get the fuck outta dodge card with preperation really lets you shine as a pvp rogue.  If griefing is your thing, ambush for teh win.  Improved Cheap Shot and Kidney shot will really let you widdle down casters as you then ALWAYS have something up that can interrupt spells (gouge, kick, and blind being the others).  And don't knock Imp. Expose Armor till you try it -- it actually lets you attack warriors and paladins with a hope of winning (also useful for big raids).

Improved kidney shot is really not that usefull, the timer on kidney shot as it is makes it so you avoid the dimishing results if you wait 1 second to use it again, reducing the recycle by 5 secs just makes it so it only stuns for half the time, then 25% then inmune.

You're thinking too small.  I just did pvp for 2 hours and I can guaruntee that even having KS up for a 1s stun is completely worth it.

My Plan :

Subtlety Mastery
Master of Deception
 Rank 5
 
Camouflage
 Rank 5
 
Subtlety Total:
 10
 
Combat Mastery
Improved Sinister Strike
 Rank 2
 
Lightning Reflexes
 Rank 5
 
Deflection
 Rank 5
 
Precision
 Rank 5
 
Riposte
 Rank 1
 
Improved Kick
 Rank 2
 
Dual Wield Specialization
 Rank 5
 
Blade Flurry
 Rank 1
 
Aggression
 Rank 3
 
Combat Total:
 29
 
Assassination Mastery
Improved Eviscerate
 Rank 3
 
Malice
 Rank 5
 
Ruthlessness
 Rank 3
 
Relentless Strikes
 Rank 1
 
Assassination Total:
 12
 
Total
Total Points Spent:
 51
 
Level Required:
 60
 

 

Ironwood, I would really take 2 points out of MoD and get Adreneline Rush.  It's a top notch skill.

You could be right there.


Hmmm.

What rogue specs are people running around with now?  Rogue's 51 and I'm just not really sure where to take him. 

Ambush/backstab looks seggsy but it just seems like it's not very practical to try to rely on in hectic group pvp.  A 21/8/22 seems like it would be somewhat flexible at least, but I'm not sure I want to rely on getting behind someone all of the time to get off those huge backstabs (lag, people don't stand still generally, etc). 

I've seen dagger crit builds, but those just seem to be backstab oriented also but without any of the subtlety perks.

I like flexibility, but I like big damage and I think in some situations ambushing might be somewhat vital.  I love cold blood, but I'm wondering if I could do without it.  Preparation seems nice too, but without using it for 2 cold bloods (not sure if it's worth it just to double up on the sprint/vanish/tea), I don't get the point. 

So, I guess I'm just curious what your lvl 60 builds are and how you like them.  I'm trying to avoid paying 100g in respecs :)

Edit: I like Hat's build he posted a while ago, but I'm just not sold on the improved KS.  Anyone done good things with hemmorage?

I hate hemmo.

I'm currently using 21/8/22.  22 is for imp. ambush, imp cheapshot (1), and prep.  I also have MoD (found it to be more useful in hectic pvp than Camo) and imp sap (would give this up if I was going pure pvp, but for pve it's very useful).  I've actually been toying with the idea of dropping imp. ambush (3 points, use CB-ambush instead) and instead putting them to tap out initiative and quick stealth.  In hectic large scale pvp, I generally play the waiting game behind enemy lines, wait for a mage to step back from nuking, wait for a priest's shield to go down, or I play counter-rogue, ie, waiting for those rogues who are preying on my people.

It's important for me to have timers up if I want to get in and get out, and this is what I use prep for mostly, 10 mins in largescale pvp goes by quickly.  Stealth, sprint, CB ambush/backstab a mage and generally they're dead, same for a priest, then continue yer sprint out of the enemy lines.

If you arent sold on backstab, a very nice build that I used a while back and loved was 21/2/28.  This gave me extra points to throw around in useful skills, you can get 5 MoD 5 Camo 5 initiative, or throw 5 points into elusiveness to get yer timers up quicker.  Plus you still get prep and can now max out imp. cs which is great.

Edit: I really liked seal fate when I had it, but since I'm still running the occasional raid/5 man group, I can't give up imp sap for a 30/8/13 build.  45g/respecs make me cry.

Also 21/8/22 here. I think the combination of Preparation and Cold Blood is the most useful in PvP of any sort. Lining up for backstabs isn't *that* hard. Just run in circles around them and spam the backstab key. It'll hit. Crit ambushes on cloth wearers, followed immediately with a crit backstab = 1/2 - 1/3 health.

The only talent I kind of miss is Ghostly Strike. That was handy to buy a few extra seconds of survivability in a close fight against another meleer. And I don't think improved sap is useless in PvP. Takes out their healer for the first 10 seconds of a fight, while you wait behind them to unload when the sap breaks.

Imp. Sap is not useless at in PvP.  It's nice to have, but I don't deem it neccessary (like MoD, imp backstab and CB).

I use a 21/2/28 build and im extremely happy with it.  Initiative lets me get off a 5 point cold blood evicerate before the target can move 75% of the time.  Cheap shot --> hemo --> gouge and they are at 5 points without ever moving a muscle.  I like that i can concentrate my gear choices on stamina since my damage comes mostly from finishers, or sinister strike that are either standard or based mostly on weapon damage.

I respecced a bunch of times (yeah it cost), and I tried all the major specs, and ended up going back to combat build, but not any of the more popular builds.

Right now I am 21/21/9 wielding Dal'Rends set of swords. I have 21 in assassination for Cold Blood (A must for almost all rogues) 21 in combat to get Reposte and Duel Wield Specialization, then 9 in Sub for 5 Camo and 4 in MoD.

Basically with no MoD you are open to all kinds of rogue attacks, it sucks that its a must have, but I used to play with out it, and now I laugh at other rogues who dont have it. Camo is just a personal preference, as I spend so much time in stealth, I have to move fast. Also, if you combine 5 Camo with the Minor speed enchant on your boots, you will move at around 95% normal movement speed. And thats a thing of beauty.

With the comming of the next patch, we will probably see a lot less combat rogues, and many more fotm assassin rogues, pumping attack power instead of crit chance, and hitting ambush for around 2.2k damage. Combine that with a Assassin/Sub build, and with preperation, you could get off 3 of those ambushes in one fight.

Just got the shanker (http://www.thottbot.com/?i=14900)(6th try, "last one of the night"), so I'm ready for my respec.   I've also managed to obtain all of the materials for Heartseeker (http://www.thottbot.com/?i=25585), which will be nice for raids and a decent offhander to boot.  There's a Krol in the AH currently but the starting bid is 500 and I've probably only got 550 gold total. 

Anyhow, still having problems picking out my spec (I'm terminally indecisive), but I'm sure it's going to be a backstab build for pve/pvp usefulness.  Combat's kinda tempting but it's not stealthy enough for me and ignoring backstab in it's current state seems like a mistake.  Plus, to me the pinacle skill in combat seems to be AR which you need to go very deep into the tree to get.


Prep/CB with Improved Sap

Good combo point generation initially.  No point in improved CS for stunlocking.

Prep/CB sans improved SAP


Improved rupture for tank fights.  Improved CS point for stunlock combos.  No improved SAP which I've found to be a really invaluable tool for me in PVE when dealing with humanoid mobs.   I can see limited use in PVP just because sapping is a giant red flag for "ROGUE HERE" and it has a hefty energy req.  I can see the uses in group pvp as knocking someone out for 10 secs can be very valuable.

The problem with the improved CS version is that I'm sacrificing a tool that I currently find very useful for theorycraft that I've yet to test.  With the new trinkets, stucklock isn't quite the death sentence and even then, timing, lag and/or misses can turn a theory win into just a normal fight.   If someone has some more extensive field experience with the improved CS build after the introduction of the trinkets, let me know.

I've also considered the SF build.  I'm just not sure I can drop preparation with how amazing I've found it to be in practice.  But I do realize this is the optimal build for PVE sustained damage (I've heard some combat rogues come close). 

FYI, what I'd use for a SF build:

Solid builds all around Rasix, but from personal experience, I'd drop the 5/5 Initiative for 4/5, and put that last point into Imp. CS.  Even one point makes a stun lock possible (for wtfpwning in duels), and you will find that ambush/cs will be used 50/50.  Having an extra 10 or so energy around will let you throw a blind out or w/e.

The other possible one you might consider if you get a krol is 21/2/28.  This gives you lots of goodies in Subtlety.

I did respec finally to the first build I listed.  Overall, it's solid, but I don't find myself using improved sap that much, so perhaps later on I'll drop it for that point back in Initiative and perhaps 2 points in camo. 

Funny enough, I really suck at PVP.  Well, I suck with the rogue at least early on. Perhaps it's just being horde, but the second you're uncovered in any largish skirmish, you're dead.  Usually within a second I've got 2 moonfires, corruption, 2 priest dots, and a warrior trying to do uncomfortable things to me.  Perhaps if I'm lucky it's only 2 priest dots.  I've gotten a bit better about noticing who has backup and not straying to close to the crowd unless it's a garunteed gank'n'run (ambush/bs/vanish/sprint).

It is fun, however picking your fights.  Just for kicks, I singled out this one hunter who always liked to stay in the back of the lines and killed him everytime I had a chance. I used ambush/bs and then tea to do a quick OMGWTFPWN combo on him and the guy just could never react in time to figure out what the hell was tearing him up,  and since he was in the back of the lines he rarely got a heal.  In the same day I think I killed the guy 10 times spread evenly between TM and XR.   Still, I'm bad.  I forget to evis, I forgot yesterday that gouge had to be from the front, I forget when my poison timers run out, and am just having a hard time finding my place in large combat (pve server = low gankage).   My stunlock could use some work, but with the new trinkets it's unreliable anyhow. 

What's funny (or sad) is that on my first guild raid with the rogue (hold everything a priest needs onyxia key!) I outdamaged everyone on the raid, including two other rogues. Their excuses: "I have a low aggro build!"(mainhanding a 1.6 spd sword), "I was skinning" (you weren't while we were fighting and use a fucking weapon switch macro, you have a goddamn Krol).  It's bad to think that a lot of the rogues in my guild just aren't using the right equipment, the right techniques, and aren't as effective as someone playing the maiden run of their crappily equipped alt (well, main once the guild allows it).

There are three places for a rogue in large scale combat.  1: Standing behind/near enemy lines trying to pick off people who run back to heal and don't have mana or priest shield up.  2: Standing near your front lines/off to the side of your main battle group searching for rogues trying to do no1.  3: Recon, don't attack, but just let people know where the main groups are using /yell or whatever, or coordinating attacks when your main group rushes out, stun/blind a few guys so that the rest scatter (this will usually get you killed).

For ganking Rasix, try doing sprint/ambush/bs/tea/bs/vanish.  This will kill anyone but a warrior/paladin or a priest with his shield up.  It is usually a suicide, so try and wait for a target that has a high rank and doesn't look like he has been battling for a while (max. cps).  By the time you finish, sprint should still have 5-7s left and will effect yer vanish (mainly used to break the inevitable snare).  In large scale battle, I usually find that I didn't even 5pt evis anymore, didn't let myself have more than 2-3 combo points, just spam ss/evis until it looks like you are going to kill him, or he's going to get away, then drop a KS/Rupture depending on the situation.  I ALWAYS use rupture on rogues near my front lines because they will vanish asap, and this will make sure they die.

I stopped playing because I didn't like the roll of my rogue in the battle that was out there, didn't have time/ambition to play like the catass I am to level up another char post 48 (greens are friends, not food).  And GW is damn fun.  Between GW/CS:S/Lumines, I'm having a damn fun time with games I can pick up for 15 mins, and stop at ANY time without feeling too bad (no guilt for abandoning a group, or finally getting a good group for doing X then something RL comes up).

Hey Rasix - although my rogue is only 47 atm, i am also going 21/8/22. Personally i'm dropping imp sap for 1 in Cheap Shot and a couple other points (undecided, possible hemo and ghostly strike, good for pve, or rupture for those warrior fights). YMMV but the high level rogues in my guild have pretty much ditched imp sap, although it's still very useful in instances.

I switched from my 21/2/28 stun lock build to a 21/8/22 dagger build because my cheap shot-->hemo--->gouge---> 5pt cb evicerate while pretty devastating was just to damn slow to get off with any consistensy in large scale fights, now i just ambush/bs. I'm alot weaker in 1v1 fights, but i hardly ever get those anymore.

I'm rarely cheapshotting anymore just because that sound (I wish they'd get rid of it, it's like ROGUE ALERT) combined with the amount of time that you have to kill and get the hell out makes it somewhat less viable.  It's great for runners, other rogues, and  the charging goon warrior that thinks he's going to get off his fear. 

I open just about every fight with cheap shot. Being a combat rogue, I like to semi stunlock, and let my assassin friend just sit behind the stunned target and backstab away.

I have found that in large scale pvp, cheapshot is really good. People panic when they get stunned in the middle of battle. Its also great for stopping mounted people so your group can kill them.

Do rogues have any workarounds to deal with Fearie Fire (http://www.thottbot.com/?k=379) or is that pretty much a death sentence?  Is it likely you'd be able to get away after a quick ambush without being able to vanish?

Sprint.

+ Lag.

Lag is definately overpowered.

This has nothing to do with a build, but I'd like to say this weekend, I ran into a horde rogue, who did a pretty good job of messing me up the second time we tangled.  Granted, there were a bunch of other folks on me, but he hurt me real bad.  Of course, later with a bunch of folks I returned the favor, so...

Rasix: how's that rogue geared out?  He seemed to do just peachy.  Trust me, I could name a horde rogue or two that's much worse. I think I scored 10 kills alone on one rogue who was especially inept that night.

He's OK.  Nothing really good though beyond my weapons which are a Barman Shanker (http://www.thottbot.com/?i=14900)/Heartseeker (http://www.thottbot.com/?i=25585) with an Assassination Blade (http://www.thottbot.com/?i=5241) for when I can't backstab.   I think my rings, my necklace,  my shoulders, and my trinkets are still green items and my boots are old stuff from Mauradon.  Gloves, pants, helm, bracers, and belt are all pretty solid if only one is a set piece (belt).  He's finally starting to get the default raid invites instead of the shaman, so he's likely to get better.  (It was nearly jaw dropping to hear them pick the rogue when I gave them a choice. )

I'm getting better if I'm still kinda bad.  Timing that gouge is a big issue still.  Still, one night when we were hopelessly outmanned in Crossroads I managed to stay alive for longer than my poison timers while picking people off in crowds.   Yesterday I had fun when I encountered what I consider a "Children's Crusade" when a bunch of folks in their late forties/early fifties attemps their first pvp type raid.   They never managed to kill me and I was stafe stabbing with sprint at one point and killed 4-5 at a pass.  Most weren't HKs, but it's their choice to invade our lands. 

As for instances, you'd be surprised. Looking at past threads, you've alluded to getting Improved Sap. In any sort of raid situation where Crowd Control is of a huge premium (5 man Scholomance, Stratholme), Improved Sap is huge. Talking over with other players like Hellfire, he puts a rogue down as 3rd most important person to have in a group, due to improved sap (he's crazy, but what can you do). On the alliance side, the conversation seems to be that rogues as a whole are having problems getting groups, but converting into an improved sap build tends to improve their chances of getting in quite a bit, especially in a group with a savvy raid leader.

I have a rogue alt, but I can't get into it to well. Too much warrior playing has made me as subtle as a car wreck. I think the key is getting into position and picking your spots, which can be maddening at times. The other thing to do is to use stuns to pick off Plate classes who like to rush the line, cause havok, and then run away (me).

The first time I saw you, my eyes got big and I think I made a straight bee-line, swinging away. Unfortunately, I think there were 2, 3 other people there too, and you got moving pretty fast.

The second time, I saw you.. or rather, I heard the sound of a cheapshot/stun as I was starting to run away from 2, 3 horde. I started cursed, realizing I just gave you a free kill.  Third time, you picked a rough spot to take down someone, and you had me and a few other guys on you.  Life of a rogue, I suppose.

As for grey mobs, I consider it my duty to intimidate them off the battlefield. The lack of an honor kill is technically a waste of my time. However, the fact they can stun, heal, or do other things to influence a battle, especially if people are running away, make them useful 2-3 shotted targets. If someone wants to be a lowbie and attempt to gain some honor kills and make a difference, I like to make a special point at times to remind them that it's not. Honestly, if you're not level 50 (really level 55), you're not going to make a difference offensively in PVP. You'll be a bigger target when you hit the higher levels, but you'll also find yourself with enough talent points and HP to be able to be a threat on the field.

Speaking as a guy with druid/priest mains, I have a huge problem with rogues in deadly environments.  My experience has been that they often show absolutely no caution with their paper armor, get slaughtered like lambs, and then bitch at the healer because I didn't spam-full-heal them the entire fight.  Part of this is because the rogue class holds a moth/flame lure for jackasses, part of it because people don't learn to adjust their strategy in different environments.  The one-shot pelvic grinding badassness works great in Stranglethorn, not so much elsewhere.  If I see a pickup group with 2 rogues in it, I'll leave.

I remain firmly behind the theory that a rogue should never expect a heal.  Ever.

A dispel maybe.  But not a heal.

Remember, not every Rogue is an idiot.  If  a rogue player remembers that he is no tank, and acts like a rogue, even when in parties, they can be a valuable asset to any group.  By the way, Hi guys.  I just signed up to your forum.  It is a nice one with a wealth of information.  Job well done   :wink:

I have 2 characters on Lightningsblade.

LVL 49 Ret Palidan

LVL 50 Assas/Sub Rogue

Welcome aboard.

My 2cents on rogues in larger scale combat?

1.  Move in groups 2-4 is nice, you can insta gank and often the return fire will be spread too thin for most if not all to escape because there isn't really time to identify and call a prime target.  Also you can sometimes just go from target to target raping cloth users who have their eyes trained to the front.

2.  Defend instead of attacking, this is rare (like the mythical non self absorbed pld who uses his shields on people who DONT GET PLATE) but a rogue is the best thing -esp a stunlock rogue- you can have watching over your priest.  Rogues can often neutralize other rogues or warriors very effectively or take out or scare off a mage or hunter that is trying to snipe your healer.