f13.net

http://m.chronicle.augusta.com/news/2011-09-08/woman-dies-after-sickened-fumes-mcdonalds

POOLER, Ga. — An 80-year-old Florida woman died early Thursday a day after being sickened by fumes at a McDonald’s restaurant in south Georgia, police said. Anne Felton, of Ponte Vedra, Fla., and her husband were customers at the restaurant in Pooler, near Savannah, Police Chief Mark Revenew said. An autopsy is being conducted to learn the cause of death. Felton was one of 10 people taken to the hospital Wednesday after firefighters found her and another customer, 56-year-old Carol Barry, unconscious in the bathroom and others struggling to breathe. Eight people were taken to a hospital, treated and released. Felton and Barry were admitted to the hospital in critical condition. Barry was listed in good condition Thursday, said Memorial University Medical Center spokesman Michael Notrica.
Authorities initially suspected that cleaning chemicals in the restroom were to blame, but Fire Chief Wade Simmons said Thursday that after the investigation was completed there was no evidence that was the case. “We were unable to find a definitive cause,” he said. “We may not ever know.”
 :ye_gods:

Must be terrorism.  Of course, we'd probably all be better off with them targeting McDonalds.

Taget Walmart too.

McDonald's is merely trying to annoy me to death.  Trying to run nfs server on Win2k3, bah.  Although I suppose it's not strictly McD or Walmart, more due to who provides their soda.

They finished the autopsy.  Apparently there was a carbon dioxide leak from the soda machine that was building up in the walls, and eventually broke into the bathrooms.

So there's that.  :awesome_for_real:

So SODA will kill you.

In addition to giving you cancer.

And rotting your teeth!




(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_u7DZEF8PHY0/SGTqCQMKp-I/AAAAAAAAAXk/P_WHtmOkSFI/s400/yuckmouth.jpg)

Well.. technically the building's design was what allowed the co2 from the soda machine to build-up.  So it was the McDonalds that killed him, just that it was the building and not the food.  :drill:

That makes no fucking sense.

Yeah, wait...what will an abundance of CO2 even do to you (assuming it doesn't explode your face off)?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/09/15/mcdonalds-death-gas_n_963971.html


I'm not saying I'm a science guy, but, yeah, with enough CO2 built up, it could do that.  I smell lawsuit  :awesome_for_real:

Okay, but when you go into a place where you can't breath oxygen, shouldn't you just leave?  I mean, you would have a bit of time, and surely you would notice?

Ever have a CO2 fire extinguisher go off in your face?

CO2 is *not* a harmless gas. It's toxic at anything above a few %. 10% CO2 will quickly knock you out and you'll then suffocate to death. The normal concentration of CO2 in air is about 0.04%.

When you hold your breath it's the build-up of CO2 in your bloodstream that triggers the urge to breathe again. I clearly remember watching Jonathan Miller in The Body In Question (1970s?) doing an experiment where he re-breathed the same air, which quickly made him feel uncomfortable and suffocated. However when he then filtered the air he was re-breathing through a CO2 scrubber his brain simply didn't tell him he was suffocating and he quickly passed out, at which point the awaiting medical people leapt in and stuck a oxygen mask on him. Great TV!

I guess what happened with the woman who died is that she was squeezing a big one out or something and didn't notice or didn't pay enough attention to the fact that she was feeling dizzy, headachey, etc, and passed out and remained in the high CO2 atmosphere for too long and basically suffocated.

That assumes that the concentration was high enough to notice right away.  And if you walk into a room and start coughing\having trouble breathing, some people might write that off as allergies or something being in the air irritating you.  It doesn't take too long to run out of oxygen, especially if the soda lines were pressurized and constantly leaking while the people were in there.  It displaces the oxygen so what could start out as a "slightly noticeable" level of CO2 could end up with deadly levels quickly, especially if the people weren't aware.

Okay, that all makes more sense.  I was responding to the idea that it was simple suffocation that could have been avoided.  Thanks, internetpoisongasexperts.

Rebreathing air without scrubbing is hypoxia and hypercapnia simultaneously.  Bathrooms are not airtight.  Hypercapnia is accompanied by symptoms which would immediately make an old woman start shrieking that she's having a heart attack.  According to the EPA (http://www.epa.gov/ozone/snap/fire/co2/appendixb.pdf) the concentration for it to be almost immediately fatal is something to the tune of 17%.  If you were in the room at the point where 17% of the volume of air was expelled by CO₂ you would probably notice.  If you merely walked into it the first thought in your mind would be "holy fuck my eyes are burning it's time to go."

One would have to assume that this lady wasn't completely healthy to start with.  That throws a lot of the normal reactions you might expect out the window.

It wasn't immediately fatal, she passed out and died later.

She was 80.  She might not even have passed out from the effects of the gas.  Well at least not the CO2.

Except, as I said before, that makes no fucking sense.  You don't not notice massive CO₂ sats any more than you would fail to notice any other environment that would over the course of minutes cause your tears and mucous to turn into acid; your heart rate to increase significantly; your entire body to sweat profusely; dizziness; a rapid increase in respiratory rate; and a blinding headache.  Most 80 year olds experiencing such symptoms would probably assume that they are having a heart attack or stroke and would seek help immediately.  In fact, what's happening is that the body uses the presence of CO₂ to regulate breathing, and that most of the symptoms of oxygen starvation are actually caused by high CO₂ saturation.  So, effectively, high CO₂ sats cause the sensation of strangulation to occur long before your body is actually oxygen deprived.

You also don't get CO₂ accumulation in the blood beyond the atmospheric concentration present, and high saturated CO₂ actually increases the rate at which you off-gas CO₂.  So anything that is insufficient to kill you is just going to make you excruciatingly uncomfortable until you leave, and then shit will turn normal almost immediately after you're removed from that environment.

I find it fascinating that you're an expert on how 80 year olds react to things, in addition to all your many other talents.

It's the internet man. Don't  you know the internet makes people an expert on everything?

There is also very good reason to suspect that the elderly react to high CO₂ sats just the same as everyone else: if they didn't, they would die of "forgetting" to breath (technically it's an autonomic nervous system function, specifically the medulla, but you probably get the point).

 :facepalm:

You would think most people who are choking to death would rush around to get help from someone like a friend, family member or by stander.
But they dont.
Most EMT's will tell you that a high percentage of women who succumb to choking and die are found alone in bathrooms by themselves.
They go there because they started coughing at the table, excused themselves to the bathroom so as not to be rude, then died when the object completely lodged and blocked their airway.


Why didnt they run out of the bathroom before succumbing to asphyxiation? 
Makes no sense. World is a strange place.  :why_so_serious:

Obviously something was different from your expectations in this case, because an old woman stayed there long enough to die as a result.  Maybe she already had compromised breathing, maybe she had some form of dementia and didn't realize what was happening, maybe she broke a hip trying to get out.

--Dave

What are you saying Sheepherder?

Are you saying that you don't believe this news story? That it's a lie? Or are you saying that the reported CO2 leak and buildup clearly had nothing to do with the death of this 80 year old woman?

Or are you just pointlessly arguing on the internet for the sake of it?

They hospitalized ten people.  That's really not something I'd expect if it was just a large carbon dioxide leak.  I don't know about you, but if I walked into the shitter and seconds later felt like I was in mid-sprint while my eyes felt like they had soda water splashed into them I would turn right the fuck around and walk away.

EDIT: I would guess that something else has also occurred here.  From the sounds of it the other people experienced prolonged effects, and that is in no way, shape, or form characteristic of carbon dioxide at all.

(Felton is the woman who died, Revenew is the local police chief)

I honestly don't get why you're all tinfoil about this particular story.

We know nothing about the concentrations of CO2 that built up in that restroom. We know nothing about the woman who died other than that she was 80 years old. We know nothing about the other people who were taken to hospital, other than the fact that 8 out of 10 of them were released the same day.

What is sounds like is that CO2 built up a bit, it made some people feel a bit ill. One unfortunate 80 year old actually passed out - for which there could be any number of contributory factors, given that she was 80 years old - and died. Not knowing what had happened or what the danger was several people were taken to hospital as a precaution, a couple of whom we kept in a for a bit longer than the majority who were released very quickly.

What's the confusion? What's even the basis for a discussion here? The autopsy indicated death by asphyxiation -  who knows if the CO2 was even the primary cause for her passing out or not, she was 80 years old!

I really, really don't get the :tinfoil: here.

It's very irregular.  The EPA has put out a report dealing with firefighting systems (http://www.epa.gov/Ozone/snap/fire/co2/co2report.html), and the answer is  about 2-3 people die due to CO₂ asphyxiation annually worldwide, usually when they're working on a total flooding firefighting system in an (airtight) confined space.

I read that she ran a marathon just prior to taking a shit at McDonald's.   

My friend's cousin told me it was a conspiracy set up by Burger King and Pepsi.

Dude, she was EIGHTY YEARS OLD.  A lot of 80 year olds can barely walk.  It was probably a low enough concentration that it wasn't immediately noticeable to an 80 year old woman.  She felt tired, or had trouble breathing, and probably had enough difficulty getting around on a good day that not being able to breath meant she couldn't even stand.

Yeah, it's irregular.  Guess what?  She's number 1 of the few people a year who die of CO₂.  Have there already been three, so no one else is allowed to die this way?

It doesn't have to be a conspiracy.

"I don't feel so good, let me sit down for a moment". Yeah, that could never happen.

Low levels of atmospheric CO₂ increase your respiratory function.  The shit I linked covered this, read it.

If you have any additional capacity to spare.  Lots of old people don't.  For a while I had less than 70% lung function, and simply walking up the stairs could leave me gasping, with a blood oxygen level around 80%.  If I got sick with something in my chest, (generally had bronchitis once a year or so) I'd be unable to maintain coherent thought if I did anything but sit/lie down.

Being widely read is a good thing, but you have to remember that wide generally means *shallow*, and it's the edge cases the book never covers that trip you up.

--Dave

Doesn't either  carbon monoxide or carbon dioxide prevent you from feeling  asphyxation ?

edit: Google tells me it might be Nitrogen, not the two above.

It doesn't precisely prevent you feeling asphyxiation, Der Helm.  High nitrogen environments allow you to exhale normally, but deny you oxygen by displacing or diluting it.  So all of the nasty shit you usually associate with choking to death just doesn't happen because you can still breathe out normally, and an excess of carbon dioxide is what actually causes the sensation usually associated with asphyxiation.  Asphyxiation via nitrogen (without the victim experiencing symptoms) is actually fairly common.  Carbon dioxide asphyxiating someone who isn't trapped in a confined space is just very, very weird because they usually know they're asphyxiating in advance of when they actually do start asphyxiating, because the sense of asphyxiation is actually triggered by high blood carbon dioxide saturation rather than oxygen deficiency.

Carbon monoxide is pretty fucking nasty too, but that's because it binds  very strongly to hemoglobin and releases very slowly compared to the intake/release of oxygen and carbon dioxide.  I actually did a one-day seminar on it last week, so if you want any tips on how to heat you ice fishing shack now is the time to ask. :oh_i_see:


Carbon dioxide accumulation in the body kills you via heart attack (due to acidosis).  She allegedly died of suffocation.

Of course, there is the possibility that the hemoglobin in her blood was already bound to other molecules which wouldn't off-gas in her lungs.  You know, like carbon monoxide poisoning.  Or hydrogen cyanide poisoning.  I can't see why one would consider that to be an unusual circumstance.

Oh wait, I'm not supposed to know these things because I read too many books.

"Allegedly"? So you are a medical examiner now?

It was MURDER!

And someone's responsible!

(http://blog.bioethics.net/ronald_mcdonald_jumping1.jpg)

Quick, he's making a run for it!

I love how you people will armchair expert on anything. Hilarious.

Let's deconstruct this post for a moment.

Starting with we first see that the author is putting his own personal spin on things, possessing this thread as he brands it to his own tastes. We see him use the word love, not just like, as though he is enamoured of what is happening yet the overall tone of his post denotes something quite the opposite.  We at first might think this is simple sarcasm but delving deeper we might notice a sort of love-hate madonna-whore complex going on.

Next we move on to Now clearly in this part, the poster is letting himself be known as a racist.  I refer to the poster as 'him' because the overall tone of the post denotes a certain masculinity. I do not discount the fact that our poster could be gender female and has since thrown off the simple trappings of one's societal gender but let us not stray from the point.  We see two things in this part, first and most obvious the disdain for people of color but there is something deeper.  With how obvious the racism is, we note that the poster has an almost palpable need to be noticed as a racist, to stand out and shout it, as though he himself hates this fact of his nature. More insidiously this also seems to indicate a guilty conscience, perhaps leading to deeds past?

We'll skip the quote since the connotations are glaringly obvious to all and move on to...

perhaps the most damning of all the posters words, we see a clear disdain and hatred for the infirmed. We can only speculate that the posters racism also extends to the sick and elderly as well as people of color. This could denote a tragedy in the posters past, a possible molestation or other such abuse from an elderly caretaker.  Whatever the cause of this hatred, what i becoming more clear with each passing word is that the poster is gleeful at the tragic circumstances of this thread, perhaps overly so.

Now for the sake of brevity while being complex in it's own right can only mean one thing in the context with the above statements. That being there is no limit to the reach and scope of the above posters hatred towards the elderly, a clear message that none are safe.
 
Finally and most shockingly is the last word.  Not only is this showing a glee, a perverse sadistic joy in the suffering and pain of others, but it's capitalization shows a personal slant to it, as though it is referencing something very close to the posters life. In this we see a sickness that has been satisfied and pleased, in whatever sick ways only the poster can know.

In conclusion: Having had much experience reading forums such as these and dealing with sick minds as the one above, I can only come to one conclusion as I am sure you all have as well.  The above poster is not merely a deranged individual but one personally attatched to the subject matter. In fact, I would go so far as to say if he were not involved in this horrid crime(yes I do consider this a crime) then he would know those involved closely.  Combining his clear hatred for the elderly and the lengths he would go to see this hatred justified shows no other possibility.

 I can only urge him to turn himself in, get treatment and do what is right.

 :awesome_for_real:

 :awesome_for_real: :awesome_for_real:

Yes.

Or, it could be that so far nobody has actually quoted a coroner.

 :Love_Letters:

 :oh_i_see:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/09/15/mcdonalds-death-gas_n_963971.html

 :argh:

I've seen that before, it's a reporter quoting a chief paraphrasing a coroner.  Whereas I'm sort of interested as to why the woman stuck around, because I'm not buying a slow trickle coming through the wall combined with the cause of death being asphyxiation unless she fell and broke her hip trying to escape.

You don't even know if she could walk in the first place.

True.  EDIT: But I'd still wonder why she entered in that case.  It's not like the gas was hiding in the wall waiting to jump her as she was sitting down.

I'll call Batman. We'll get some answers, dammit! We owe her that much for dying in a McDonalds.

Is Batman better than OSHA?

I think they are on par.

Batman punches things to solve problems. So, yes.

But when OSHA puts someone in jail they stay there.

Based on the fiendish complexity of this case it seems like both also have difficulty dealing with criminal clowns.

Psycho

The Monopoly game had me braving my local McDonalds this week. I managed to escape alive and with a free McFlurry!

This frightened me:

(http://dl.dropbox.com/u/20557826/3mdc_n.jpg)

Even the bun didn't go moldy?

The fries make sense. They are thin, salted, and fried. That's practically preserved.

The bun, I have no answer for. I'm sure 2 of them are still in my colon from college.

I would question this a little, I've had a burger go moldy from McD's before.  I'm not saying it's an impossibility, but I need to know more about the outside factors involved in their "test".

As someone who used to be a garbage collector, let me tell you that yes, that bun will go moldy in the right weather conditions.

In America, we build bread to last!

(http://images.cheezburger.com/completestore/2011/2/24/ba032698-0d11-4993-87e7-a65aa66c2d59.jpg)

I had a health professional once show me a McDonalds burger (Cheeseburger, I think) that they'd had for about 9 years. It had the special commemorate Batman Forever wrapping on it.

It didn't look that bad - bun was a little beat up, but apparently that came from the occasional wrapping / unwrapping of it. Smelled bad, but not rotten meat bad. She'd bought it to show what a McD burger looked like after 3 months unrefrigerated, but just thought she'd hold onto it from then and see. Kept it in her office.

Wish I'd kept the photos of it.

You see those McDonalds 'experiments' all the time.  Always preserved, etc.  I want those guys to eat one.  Experiment that!

Finally some food those damn bacteria will leave alone - it's MINE, ALL MINE!

I had McDonalds for the first time in ..5+ years yesterday. Probably longer. My old standby - 9 nuggets + 2 large fries, all shaken loose inside the paper bag without any dipping sauces. Unsurprisingly, it tasted a lot better when I was a teenager.

McRibs are back for those that have to eat at least one before they disappear.

You do realize that they will continue to pretend to remove popular products and then put them back under a wave of hype after a year or two, right?

The sad part is that I know how their nuggets are made, and when my option is McDonalds I still usually get them over the burgers.  In the last few years or so they've been getting really sloppy with meat quality, and I have found enough bone shards in burgers to reconstruct a fucking bovine skeleton, and that just fucking ruins any enjoyment you might be having.

Yeah I eat the nuggets all the time, but I smother them in their BBQ sauce.  Which I find addicting for some strange reason.

Honey Mustard, baby!

I like the Hot Mustard, the BBQ, and the new Buffalo

McDonalds will KILL you... just slowly.

The McRib is back! Dont eat it!


Hmmm weird parts and rubber. Awesome!  :ye_gods:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/11/04/mcrib-lawsuit-humane-society-smithfield-farms_n_1075992.html?1320416650&ncid=webmail1&ref=fb&src=sp&comm_ref=false

If anyone is surprised by this, they deserve what they get. 

Tripe (never had pho?) and heart are both perfectly edible. (I have no idea what "scalded stomach" is but it sounds redundant to me since the stomach is what tripe is made from generally.) Although they should probably call something less specific than "rib" if they're going to put that in there.

The new limited edition McGuts sandwich.  :why_so_serious:

McHaggis?  :why_so_serious:

I think you mean MacHaggis.  :grin:

I think I'd rather have Haggis than a McRib and the thought of Haggis makes me ill.

The part that has stopped me from trying it is the lungs. The rest of the ingredients, fine, but I dunno, something about lungs puts me off.

It's pig, everything is edible.. well except bones.

I grew up eating offal so it doesn't bother me.  It's only in the US where offal really is taken for granted.

Maybe its because the only reason some people ate that offal to begin with was there was nothing else to eat? The royalty was eating the meat and the serfs got the trimmings?

Some pieces and parts of animals taste okay- liver, some kidneys, heart, ribs, etc.
But some of it no matter what you do to it, it tastes like shit (literally) ie tripe, brains, and other weird bits.

Welcome to the 21st century and not being a peasant where I dont have to eat tripe and brains and such. I can get the good stuff.

Afraid I wouldn't know what shit literally tastes like, but way to take a dump on entire regional cuisines there. I think if you'd ever had some really good menudo you'd change your tune on tripe. Given that it's a 'special occasion' food I don't think the 'we had to eat this or starve' excuse really holds water for that, either.

I eat tripe more than any other offal and it doesn't taste like shit.  Hell I hate kidneys more than I do tripe or brain.   Mind you I don't eat a lot of offal, but it really depends on it's preparation.  

In many other cultures offal *is* the good stuff.

Dude. Im not shitting all over a regions cuisine. Im just being honest about the historical back story of why people started eating this stuff in the first place.
They ate it because they were serfs, slaves or poor dirt farmers and had nothing else to eat.
Thats not racist, thats history.

And for your information menudo is made not only with tripe but with the cow's feet and tendons as well. Now do you think the people who came up with that dish were eating those parts because they already worked there way through the freezer and had eaten the filets and steaks and roasts already?

So, you've never had it then. (Also who said anything about racism?)

Or the fact that we've been eating offal since a caveman bashed a rock into some animal and ate it.

I like chitlins with hot sauce. If they are well cleaned, that's some good eating.

You must be a serf, a slave, or a dirt poor farmer!!   :why_so_serious:

I just had to look up haggis again...I'd give it a shot.

Nope, just Southern. So, yeah probably.

I've had more bad experiences with chitlins than good unfortunately.  The times they were good though it was yummy.

I love pig ears and pig tails.  That shit is delicious.

I will never understand people's reactions to Haggis, 90% of people who try it (without knowing what's in it) quite like it. And yet tell them what's in this thing they're enjoying and suddenly it makes them feel ill. Now Andouillette I can understand, that's pretty clearly tripe and it's a very different flavour from most of the stuff we eat.

I'm sure the various and sundry kings of England ate shit like lamprey and tongue because they were starving.

Dont know about tongue but eel (lampray) was a delicacy for a long time. Very rich though.

The sad truth is that Americans have turned squeamish since we've come to rely on processed everything. If our chicken isn't in nugget form, and our cheese doesn't come in bright orange-yellow solid blocks of paste, we don't think its 'normal'.

Pig's feet and ears are wtfawsome, if you know how to make and how to eat them. Same thing goes for mountain oysters. Unfortunately, we have lost the ability.

 :oh_i_see:

Or maybe foods like clothes fall in and out of fashion? Things just naturally cycle through?
Liver used to be more mainstream as well as it was cheap and full of protein. But you'll notice that has regular beef has become more readily available you see few people eating and fewer restaurants serving liver.

And sorry but bull's or pig's balls have never been mainstream and people have always been squeamish about them.
And again do you know where the practice of eating calf's balls came from? Dirt poor ranch hands who werent allowed to butcher or kill the owner's stock for the regular meat. So when the male calves were gathered up to be castrated the ranch hands (cowboys) were allowed to keep and cook the balls.

http://faculty.chass.ncsu.edu/slatta/essays/grub.htm


I will agree fried pig's ears "cracklins" are awesome. I cook them myself.  :grin: In addition to cooking pig's belly, getting the skin nice and crisp and the fat just melts in your mouth.

Right.  So is much of the shit you're calling peasant food.  Peasants would have had basically no access to meat except for pork or chicken, and that sparsely.

 :facepalm:

There is a big difference. Lamprey was an upper crust food, that fell out of favor. And really isnt eaten widely any longer.
The other foods we are discussing were lower class sources of protein or food (pigs feet and testicles, chitlins, etc) and either never gained popular acceptance, or some very few did (such as ribs which were a poor man's food but are now popular).

You know you can google the history of most foods (just like I did with testicles above) right?

I enjoy how Sand knows everything because of Google. Google has made him the smartest person in the world! And not at all insufferable!

Thank you Google.

Who the fuck cares if the rich or poor ate it two centuries ago?  If it tastes good, eat it.  If it tastes like shit, don't.

It's not like most of us are living in a time or place that requires us to eat anything we can acquire.

If I Google it I can also find the appropriate tartan for a kilt to honour my Scottish ancestors.

Beef and mutton implies grazing land, large amounts of manpower at your command, the ability to feed an train work dogs, and a fairly large assortment of tools.  Peasantry implies indentured servitude.

I'm sure it makes sense in your world that peasants would have eaten the offal fresh and made the choice cuts of meat into sausage.

Andrew Zimmern agrees!

Also, I refuse to Google testicles.  I did that once before and was decidedly unhappy with the results.

Sand, I'm sure you're right about the historical nature of these foods.  Shoot, I make fun of the locals here (in Denmark) for their food history, because much of their staple diet evolved the same way.  Still, they continue to eat these things today because they like them...not because they have to.  Some of them are genuinely good.  Mash up various pig parts into a paste and call it a day!  Make sausages out of blood!  Okay, that last one is gross, and they are gross for eating it.  Stupid farmers.

He isn't really.

Traditionally animals were slaughtered only for feasts, and the offal and blood which was otherwise unappetizing made into sausage, because you could spice the shit out of links of sausage, it would last forever, and if it went bad it was no big loss.  There's a reason that every race or ethnicity ever has some variant of sausage.

Which leaves you with the conclusion that at some point in time some people thought tripe was pretty tasty.  Which isn't that much of a stretch, really.

I am because eating tripe and eating sausage that you "spice the shit out of" isnt exactly the same thing. Nor does that single piece of offal apply to every other thing people have eaten or the history of all plains, peasant, and slave foods.
You can disagree with me all you want, doesnt make me wrong or you right. I enjoy cooking. I enjoy knowing the history and story of the foods I cook. I read cook books, wine histories and things the way other people read novels.

For a non-meat based example look up the pokeweed plant. They are a poisonous plant commonly found through out North America. Despite the poisonous nature of the plant they were cooked and eaten by rural poor people as a source of food because many times they had nothing else to eat. The reason people dont eat it today is that the plant is poisonous. They didnt start eating because of their culture, and people didnt stop eating it due to squeamishness. They ate it because they had nothing else.

Just look at the history of "soul food".


Keep beating that dead horse though.

There may be some truth to that, Sand, but on the other hand, you'll find examples all over Europe of 'slave meat' being served in restaurants to this day. Tripe, for instance, is not uncommon in Spanish paradors, especially closer to the capital. Kidneys are also legion across both French and Spanish higher end restaurants. I'll grant you that pigs feet and ears are less common, but that's in large part because their preparation is a bit more of a pain and they aren't quite as popular as tripe.

That has more to do with the search to present novelty for jaded palates than the inherent tastiness of the materials.

--Dave

That's not true for menudo or pho, though.

But there (with tripe), you're just talking about a cut of meat (muscle tissue) that's only unusual for not being attached to the skeleton.  Kidneys and liver are inedible except in desperation, as far as I'm concerned.

--Dave

Chopped liver is so good. Not so much the fried stuff.

If you have an entire slaughtered pig, because you can't half slaughter a pig, and you're choosing which meat to cook for the feast, and which to grind into sausage, you generally choose to cook the good shit and grind the nasty shit you are otherwise unwilling to eat.  That tripe, liver, brains, kidneys, and other weird shit even exists as a type of food distinguishable from sausage with it's own distinct methods of preparation shows that at some point in time people thought it tasted good, else it would have just been more sausage.

This should not be a hard concept to grasp.


Excepting only pokeweed, every one of those those greens, "new" and otherwise, have been commonly used as food, often as a staple, since prehistory by basically everyone on the face of the earth.  I have no clue where you got that shittastic quote, but you should tell them they fucking suck at history, because they missed, like, all of it.

Oh, and apparently people still eat pokeweed.

 :facepalm:

Yep all the historians are wrong and you are right. Just like you are right about everything else in the world. You must be a true joy at dinner parties.

I guess that depends on what is being served.  :grin:

Counterpoint:
(http://i.imgur.com/58Nnz.jpg)

The only part of a pig you can't eat is the oink.

You couldn't be more wrong. Kidneys in Spain are considered commonplace. Tripe is considered a bit of 'down home cookin', but that doesn't stop them from being served at both truck stops and 'fine dining' establishments. These are not dishes for the idle rich, or the bored palate. They are considered genuinely good tasting. That's the undercurrent of what's bugging me about what Sand and you seem to be saying, that your formed tastes are ubiquitous, and that there's some form of platonic ideal of 'normal'. There just isn't.

Yeah, no one ate kale before the slaves did.


Oh...

If you want to talk about a topic you know nothing at all about you should at least do so without banging on like a fucking turkey.

I hear you a have a really good story about a shark too.

Awesome so your quote contradicts my quote. About one of the leafy greens mentioned. And what you quoted about the kale is right.
How does that make me a turkey? Oh god Sand posted something I must argue with him.
Collards also mentioned were brought from Africa to Europe and later to North America by slaves.

Wtf about a shark? Troll harder.

Why do you hate Aryans Sand?

Sand, would you eat horse-meat?

We wasted a bunch of money making it illegal in California - as if there was some massive trade in horse meat for humans.

I remember that for some strange reason. 

Wasn't that just because you hated the French ?

No, we love France here! This isn't Real America.

Allegedly the reason for it is because horses here aren't regulated like food animals in terms of what sorts of medicines and hormones you can give them etc.

Foal is fucking delicious. Just have to get that out there.

Why don't you just go eat a cute baby dolphin while you're at it?

I've had whale. Does that count?

Only if it was cute whale.  Ugly whale is just fine for eating.

This thread is stupid. You should all be talking about eating endangered tiger and lemurs.

(http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1143749/ultima6_horseflesh.png)

Google made you unhappy about testicles?

I understand where he's coming from. Testicles are a bummer.