f13.net

See, Kevin Smith has 1.6 million followers on Twitter, who all get to read just how unfairly he was treated, and how the airline tried to make everything better with a $100 voucher.

Of course, this is not the first time the airline has managed to get in the news with stupid decisions by its staff - last time they made the news, an overweight passenger was barred from flying, and missed the funeral of his uncle.

Not So Silent Bob
Sun, 02/14/2010 - 14:57 — Christi Day

Many of you reached out to us via Twitter last night and today regarding a situation a Customer Twittered about that occurred on a Southwest flight. It is not our customary method of Customer Relations to be so public in how we work through these situations, but with so many people involved in the occurrence, you also should be involved in the solution. First and foremost, to Mr. Smith; we would like to echo our Tweets and again offer our heartfelt apologies to you. We are sincerely sorry for your travel experience on Southwest Airlines.

As soon as we saw the first Tweet from Mr. Smith, we contacted him personally to apologize for his experience and to address his concerns on both Twitter and with a personal phone call. Since the situation has received a lot of public attention, we'd like to take the opportunity to address a few of the specifics here as well.

Mr. Smith originally purchased two Southwest seats on a flight from Oakland to Burbank – as he’s been known to do when traveling on Southwest. He decided to change his plans and board an earlier flight to Burbank, which technically means flying standby. As you may know, airlines are not able to clear standby passengers until all Customers are boarded. When the time came to board Mr. Smith, we had only a single seat available for him to occupy. Our pilots are responsible for the Safety and comfort of all Customers on the aircraft and therefore, made the determination that Mr. Smith needed more than one seat to complete his flight. Our Employees explained why the decision was made, accommodated Mr. Smith on a later flight, and issued him a $100 Southwest travel voucher for his inconvenience.

You've read about these situations before. Southwest instituted our Customer of Size policy more than 25 years ago. The policy requires passengers that can not fit safely and comfortably in one seat to purchase an additional seat while traveling. This policy is not unique to Southwest Airlines and it is not a revenue generator. Most, if not all, carriers have similar policies, but unique to Southwest is the refunding of the second seat purchased (if the flight does not oversell) which is greater than any revenue made (full policy can be found here). The spirit of this policy is based solely on Customer comfort and Safety. As a Company committed to serving our Customers in Safety and comfort, we feel the definitive boundary between seats is the armrest. If a Customer cannot comfortably lower the armrest and infringes on a portion of another seat, a Customer seated adjacent would be very uncomfortable and a timely exit from the aircraft in the event of an emergency might be compromised if we allow a cramped, restricted seating arrangement.

Hey @SouthwestAir: you bring that same row of seats to the DailyShow, and I'll sit in 'em for all to see on TV.

Eh, if he's not too fat to fit in the seat, not too fat to buckle up and not fat enough that the people next to him dont even care, why not let him have a seat?

Honestly I understand all this anti-fatty rage because no one likes sitting next to the 300lb guy but it's not really deserved here.

This is what happens when you stop shaming fat people and give them cameras.

Well, we also could get into an argument that this is all just a scam to get large people to buy two seats even if they don't need it.

Well, we also could get into an argument that this is all just a scam to get large people to buy two seats even if they don't need it. It really has nothing to do with safety and the airlines don't really give a fuck if the people next to fatty are comfortable, they just want an extra ticket sale.

Kevin Smith's ass should complain to its congressman.  And possibly his congressman, as well.  

Here's the thing that often gets overlooked: it really, actually is a safety thing.

Despite Americans getting way bigger, the FAA will not change what they consider to be an "average" person.  The size of that person is 170 pounds and I forget what the physical dimensions are supposed to be. But they're pretty small too. This weight is used for everything from weight and balance to the actual design of the aircraft, safety equipment, and even the means of emergency escape. Making an overweight person buy two seats is the best compromise that still lets people over about 200 pounds fly. Even then it's not perfect as the seats, restraints, rafts, floatation devices, inflatable door slides, and even the openings of some emergency exits will not work with people that big. As much as I love to hate on companies for being greedy at the expense of their customers, it's actually the best option they have available.

The best option would be for the FAA to change their numbers and airlines to update seats and equipment, but that's not likely to happen.

The best option would be for the FAA to change their numbers and airlines to update seats and equipment, but that's not likely to happen.

This. Airplane seats are too small.

I don't fly very often, and have never flown anything other than in the cheapest seats available, but I'm wondering if the seats in Business/Executive/Expensive class are as small as in Cheapo? Or do rich obese people get a free pass here?

Why didn't he just get his money refunded and fly a different airline if he's so outraged?

He's fat. I was fat once, not nearly as fat as him and there's nothing I hate more than sitting next to a fat fucker on a fucking airplane.

Seriously.

It sucks.

Doesn't fucking matter if he's Kevin Smith.

Edit: I like how it somehow matters if he has Twitter followers, whoopty doo.

There weren't any other flights available from Oakland to Burbank at that time. On his podcast he said he even considered renting a car and driving to LA.

Jesus fucking christ. Why is there such a media shit storm over this? A story of drama involving a fattie and the airplane that refused to fly him! Larry King Reports.

Things are more news-worthy in this country if they happen to celebrities or pretty white girls.

I don't like sitting to old ladies who talk to me a lot. Or assholes, I don't like sitting next to assholes. Tall guys with big elbows, that's bad too. I assume all of you except for the talkative old ladies, assholes and tall guys with big elbows are in favor of making them buy two seats or not flying as well.

I went to An Evening with Kevin Smith last week and he was looking a lot larger now than he was a year ago, so I can see why this happened. It's sad and unfortunate, but if it means 1 more variable that can cause something to go wrong, I'm ok with him being outraged and at the boarding kiosk.

This had nothing to do with airline safety,

I don't like sitting to old ladies who talk to me a lot. Or assholes, I don't like sitting next to assholes. Tall guys with big elbows, that's bad too. I assume all of you except for the talkative old ladies, assholes and tall guys with big elbows are in favor of making them buy two seats or not flying as well.

Lots of folks still telling me to stop crying and lose weight - as if that’s what this was all about.

So I swore to Linda, up and down “Get me a document to sign, and I’ll swear on my child’s life and penalty of all I own that I’ll never sue your Airlines. But just PUT THE FUCKING TRUTH OUT THERE THAT I’M NOT TOO FAT TO FLY, AND THAT THIS WAS ALL AN UNFORTUNATE ERROR ON SOUTHWESTERN’S PART.”

As somebody who is only five feet eight inches tall and of slight build, I'd just like to say this - aircraft seats are too fucking small for me, let alone most of the rest of the planet. I don't know how you hormone grown American giants (slender or obese) cope. Kevin Smith is huge, I'm not sure that even I would want to sit next to him in economy. In those pairs of facing business class seats, sure. People jokingly call economy 'cattle class', but I've flown on African transport planes with cattle - a Dakota with bench seats, hand straps and a cargo net over the door beats economy on any modern airline.

I heard the in-flight movie was Jersey Girl and they threw him off for putting a bomb on the plane.

 :rimshot:

yeah this obesity entitlement thing isn't going to last. 

Fuck Southwest Airlines in the earhole.

Look, I understand the "safety" concerns of too much weight on the plane. But, if you are going to start fucking people over for an extra seat charge without any concrete sets of measurement then you can go fuck yourself. If it's the armrest test, stick to it. Or better yet, why not start weighing EVERY PASSENGER before they get on the plane? Oh wait, would that embarrass some people? Fuck them, right, they shouldn't weigh more than they are comfortable admitting to the world. Or have one of those "You must be this wide to sit in our seats" mascots as you board the plane.

The company is there to provide a service to the public for a price. That comes with the burden that yes, Virginia, some people are fucking fat and your one size fits no one shitty too small seats for even a goddamn beanpole like me are not really comfortable for anyone, much less the morbidly obese. Either say that "Fat people don't fly Southwest"  and deny anyone over 190 lbs. entrance or shut the fuck up and let the fatties fly the rest of the goddamn world.

and fat pride day

I honestly don't get it. Something else had to be going on.

The rule is simple and it makes sense. if you can't fit in the seat, put down the armrests and put on a seat belt, then you need to buy another seat because you're going to bump someone off the plane. It's a simple revenue equation. If he can fit in the seat then that is that and if he can't fit in the seat then that is that.

It's something that really needs to be done by Boeing and Airbus in future designs and there's no sign of that happening.

If prognostications about the inevitability of fuel prices rising again are accurate, I don't think it's a far fetched to see the entire airline industry completely imploding.

A big part of the problem is that flights, crews and support staffing have been whittled away too over the years. While I fly on an infrequent basis now, I used to live in airports/hotels, flying 2-3X or more a week…

√ …public flies more than ever, but flights and staff are cut so flights are more packed. Airports used to be busy with passenger activity 24x7 but most airports go to sleep in the wee hours now. Used to be that planes were generally only 2/3 full, giving people room to space out if cramped.

√ …cost cutting measures means most have skeleton crews and disgruntled pilots and crews are less than eager to be on call when schedule disruptions occur. 2 years ago, I got stuck in Pittsburgh for a few days because of thunderstorm in NYC — plane was delayed and eventually arrived but crew work allotted hours eclipsed and were barred from continuing on. Worse, this sets up a vicious chain of complaining customers, with bare bones staff ill equipped to handle (counter rep expressed to me that they just don't have the ability to accommodate paying passengers stuck like this and simply hand you a 1-800 number… …for which you'll talk to an offshore CSR after you sit on hold for 3 hours and fret that your cell phone battery/connection is going to give out…). From what I understand, backup crews were kept on standby in previous times, but cutbacks along with pilot/staff disgruntlement with management in recent years has contributed to a rather unpleasant condition for travelers.

√ …flying first class is nice, and I used to use my miles to upgrade (instead of using for trips) but often, even if you want it and willing to pay, it's unavailable, given the above and that there are just a few seats sequestered off.

If prognostications about the inevitability of fuel prices rising again are accurate, I don't think it's a far fetched to see the entire airline industry completely imploding.

The checkmarks you use are starting to annoy. Is there a reason you use them other than to shorten the first sentences of paragraphs?

They are both at fault, neither wants to admit culpability, and both owe me for the time I've spent reading about this silly happenstance.

There.  Problems solved.

having had to watch some clip with Smith recently he doesn't seem that "fat".  Big, but not out the door, moo-moo obese.

also, he apparently has a new film coming out soon.  What a coincidence.

I think the point is not kevin smith fat but how much is 'too' fat.  By the airways own guidelines if he can put the armrests down and buckle his own belt, he's not too fat.  He says he can do this so the issue is that the pilot or flight attendant saw him and made some sort of judgement call based on what i can only assume is a policy of grabbing cash.

I'll say it again, airlines dont give a fuck if you are comfortable, removing fat people has nothing to do with YOU. Airline safety is also not infringed upon buy having a couple tubby people on a plane. The only reason for this is to have people buy two seats, nothing more.

A morbidly obese rich white guy buys two tickets.  He then changes his mind and agrees to be put on standby as a convenience to him in order to change his itinerary from that which he originally contracted for.  He agreed to take the one seat.  He was too fat.

What is the definitive gauge for a Customer of size?
The armrest is the definitive gauge for a Customer of size. It serves as the boundary between seats and measures 17 inches in width. Customers who are unable to lower both armrests and/or who compromise any portion of adjacent seating should proactively book the number of seats needed prior to travel.

How do I qualify for and request a refund of the additional seat purchase?
As long as the flight does not oversell (having more confirmed Customers waiting to board an aircraft than seats on the aircraft), we will refund the additional seat purchase after travel.

Why isn’t this information on your tickets, referenced on the booking/reservations pages of your web site, or questioned by your Reservations Employees?
We estimate that the Customer of size policy affects far less than half a percent of our Customers, and ultimately, it is the responsibility of a Customer with a unique and unusual need to communicate with us upfront so that we may best serve him/her and all others onboard. We won’t know of an unusual need unless the Customer tells us.

I'm not buying this, sorry. I realize it's an easy extra empty seat sell, but frankly, it's a winner. Arguing against it is retarded as even fat people don't want to sit next to fat people.

Actually, that's a good idea. Have a 'fat people' section on the plane. The fatties will be too buy arguing over who's crowding who to piss and moan about the airline.

Edit: Note, you don't diet until you hit rock bottom - Kevin Smith has a hot wife for a fatass and is rich as sin, he'll never diet unless he breaks something. He might slash his gut open on a glass table though and that might prompt him. He carries his weight like he's in a sumo suit, it's just embarrassing.

I think the point is not kevin smith fat but how much is 'too' fat.  By the airways own guidelines if he can put the armrests down and buckle his own belt, he's not too fat.  He says he can do this so the issue is that the pilot or flight attendant saw him and made some sort of judgement call based on what i can only assume is a policy of grabbing cash.

I'll say it again, airlines dont give a fuck if you are comfortable, removing fat people has nothing to do with YOU. Airline safety is also not infringed upon buy having a couple tubby people on a plane. The only reason for this is to have people buy two seats, nothing more.

4.  Airlines DO give a fuck if you're comfortable.  See customer satisfaction and good business practices.

Ha.  Coach is coach man.  Airlines are in trouble as it is.  You can't pay 100 dollars to fly across the country and expect to loll around eating grapes on a bearskin carpet.

Kevin Smith really let himself go if that's a recent photo of him. He used to be in the 200 region which was alright but he's easily pushing 300+ in that one.

I will stick to the facts just like you requested.

It's simple Science to determine Kevin Smith's weight. Here are my calculations:

SouthWest seat width is 17.25 inches. Kevin Smith requires two, so we can assume his waist is about 35 inches wide. He's more round than he is elliptical, so we estimate his body depth to be 35 inches. We already know he is 69 inches tall. This gives us a cylinder.

So calculating the volume of a cylinder we use the formula:

Volume = pi r2 h = 3.14 x 17.25 x 17.25 x 69 = ~64,470 cubic inches

Dividing by 1728 cubic inches per cubic foot = ~37.31 cubic feet

Now we multiply by the density of the human body 62.42796 pounds per cubic foot and we get:

2,328.6 pounds. Roughly.

No wonder they kicked him off that flight!
Source(s):
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_the_formula_for_finding_the_volume_of_a_cylinder

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_the_average_density_of_the_human_body

http://www.metric-conversions.org/volume/cubic-feet-to-cubic-inches.htm

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20100215181413AAf6rUx

Particularly this answer:

YIKES. What is he doing to himself? He's "battled obesity" before, what did he do, just give up?

 :drill: That is fantastic.

He's fat. I was fat once, not nearly as fat as him and there's nothing I hate more than sitting next to a fat fucker on a fucking airplane.

Given the fact all it took was some hardcore dieting and not eating total shit like buffalo wings and such, no, I don't fucking sympathize with fatties.

And real food tastes pretty damn good too.

Oh, and learn to love black coffee.

I dislike coffee.  I also can't stand artificial sweeteners.  Recently, I discovered that I enjoy unsweetened ice tea (black, green, etc) which conveniently removes any need to drink soda for caffeine, and provides for an alternative to water when I want something with a bit of flavor.  This is a huge win.

I've seen enough of the creations from Starbucks and the like to wonder, at times, if milkshakes don't have less fat and sugar than someones whipped, foamed, stirred, sugared, pseudo-coffee creation.

I find I do quite well counting my calories.  Lost 15 lbs since I started doing that.  My allotment is around 2000 calories a day.  You can burn almost that entire thing with a McDonald's Angus Burger Large Meal.  It's frightening.

I find I do quite well counting my calories.  Lost 15 lbs since I started doing that.  My allotment is around 2000 calories a day.  You can burn almost that entire thing with a McDonald's Angus Burger Large Meal.  It's frightening.

You got me curious so I went and looked.

Cause artificial sweeteners taste like ass?

Coke and Sprite Zero are absolutely lovely.

I don't drink much soda and it still tastes like ass to me.

They probably taste like ass to you because you're used to having gobs of insanely-sugary sodas wrecking your taste buds.

Not everyone's taste buds are the same.  I can taste the artificial sweeteners in Coke Zero.  I'm not fooling myself, I'm just particularly sensitive to the taste of certain compounds.

Same reason I can't drink beer or coffee.  They're intensely bitter, to me, and make me physically gag.  I'll drink two regular cokes to get the aftertaste of one diet out of my mouth.  Kind of defeats the point.

Cherry Coke Zero tastes exactly the same as regular.  You should try it.  Anyone who thinks they can tell the difference is only fooling themselves.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Princess_and_the_Pea

4 Pages.

For the love of God.

You just added to the problem!   :grin:

edit: it also kills you, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aspartame_controversy

I guess you're still smoking, Schildy, because if you weren't I'm guessing your ex-smoker rage would be as hardcore as your ex-fatty rage?  Sometimes I get the scary feeling that you're punching kittens while you post.

I'm intrigued by this Key Lime soda. Details?

I can taste the difference. I actually prefer the diet sodas over regular. The artificial sweeteners are more of a plain, strong sweetness. When I try the regular stuff it has a noticeable unpleasant 'off' taste. It's hard to describe, kind of a doughy, syrupy flavor. If you drink regular all the time, you're probably used to it, but I think it just gets in the way of the drink. Also, it leaves that sticky, gritty mouthfeel.

Eh. Difference between being a fattie and a smoker, Signe.

When I quit smoking, I won't hate smokers.

I wouldn't be so sure of that.

One of the problems with quitting smoking is it can make you fat!   :ye_gods:

Nope, eating like a fat bastard to give rid of smoking pangs is what makes you fat.

Nope, eating like a fat bastard to give rid of smoking pangs is what makes you fat.

Well, yes, that's what I mean.  You could always time giving up smoking with giving up pot.  That should even things out, no?  Except for the mood swings, of course.  I guess you would have to take up pot before you could give it up in most cases around here. 

I can't think of a better thread to ramble inanely in! 

Anyway, my protip of the week is this:  Buy a gas fired grill.  It's easy, and cleanup is a cinch because you don't have any pots and pans to fuck around with.   It can be a bitch to prepare something interesting for yourself if you live alone.  I know a lot of dudes who let their weight get away from them for precisely this reason.  They don't really know how to cook, it's a hassle to clean up, and dinner from the D's (both Mc and Wen) is so much easier.  So, get a grill and you can't go wrong.  You'll have one plate to wash when you're done eating.  And it's not expensive to buy fresh foods as long as you don't have downs (hi Sarah). You can reliably get chicken breast all over the country for 1.99 lb.  A combo from the D's is like five dollars for a sliver of shit-meat on rye.

Paper plates.

Also, get a slow cooker, and a really big wok for stir fry. They're both easy as hell to cook with and you can make pretty good meals out of basic foodstuff.

Eh. Difference between being a fattie and a smoker, Signe.

When I quit smoking, I won't hate smokers.

If pleasure alone would be a valid reason, cocaine would be legal as well.

Eesh. Two things. Airline has a standard, is he too fat to fit in the seat and stay within the armrests or not? If yes, he's at fault, if no, the airline is at fault. I really can't see anything more simple than that. They should publish a weight limit, and stick to it - screw sensibilities.

Quote from: http://www.southwest.com/travel_center/cos_qa.html
What is the definitive gauge for a Customer of size?
The armrest is the definitive gauge for a Customer of size. It serves as the boundary between seats and measures 17 inches in width. Customers who are unable to lower both armrests and/or who compromise any portion of adjacent seating should proactively book the number of seats needed prior to travel.

You asked if pleasure was a valid reason and I said no, on its own it isn't.

An American who hoped to travel on a flight from Charlottetown to Montreal earlier this month was removed from the plane because he smelled.

The Air Canada Jazz flight was waiting for takeoff when some passengers complained about the odour. Efforts were made to isolate the man from other passengers, but flight officials eventually decided to ask him to get off the plane.

I heard this was semantic?  True story?

Quitting smoking is hard.  I know.  Ask me.  When you smell smoke from another smoker after you've quit, you will hate them.  I guarangoddamntee it.  It's like vowing celibacy

I heard this was semantic?  True story?

Dude.  He could have said 'no good reason' instead of 'no valid reason' and this thread is like ten posts shorter.  You see his avatar, right?  Give him a break.

There are social aspects

That would require I take up smoking pot.

Like standing around huddled outside in the snow?

Sharing the cancer.

Like standing around huddled outside in the snow?

Like standing around huddled outside in the snow?

http://www.salon.com/life/broadsheet/feature/2010/02/16/flying_while_fat

I hope you all feel like the fucking monsters you are now.   :oh_i_see:

http://www.salon.com/life/broadsheet/feature/2010/02/16/flying_while_fat

I hope you all feel like the fucking monsters you are now.   :oh_i_see:

Also, sounds like Kate Harding needs to go on a diet.

Q. OK, listen, it’s fine for YOU to be happy with how you look, but you cannot even fathom what it’s like to live in MY disgusting body — so it’s perfectly fine for me to cut my objectively hideous self down and talk about how I clearly need to lose weight, right?
A. No, it’s really not.

Q.  When you say “Diets don’t work,” don’t you mean fad diets, as opposed to permanent lifestyle changes?
A. No.

Q. I think what you’re doing is great, but personally, I still want to lose weight — why won’t you allow diet talk here?
A. Because it’s a fat acceptance blog.

Yes of course. The airlines should reconfigure their entire business model to suit the needs of the uber fat/poor who can't afford to buy two tickets to go to funerals. EVERYONE IS EQUAL.  WE'RE ALL THE SAME. WE HAVE RIGHTS.  :awesome_for_real:

Q. I think what you’re doing is great, but personally, I still want to lose weight — why won’t you allow diet talk here?
A. Because it’s a fat acceptance blog.

I love the 'diets don't work' sentiment. Clearly anyone claiming to have lost weight from a diet is a big (figuratively) fat liar. If they look like they've lost weight, they were actually wearing a fat suit in the first place and are an undercover fat-hater whose just trying to make you doubt that this is the way you will always be.

Bench seating down the length of the aircraft and you then pay by the pound, just like luggage. Ta-da!

I took Amtrak once, it wasn't so bad. I got free food and drink and more legroom than i have ever had in any other form of mass transport ever.

We're about five minutes away from a Judge Dredd script.

I took Amtrak once, it wasn't so bad. I got free food and drink and more legroom than i have ever had in any other form of mass transport ever.

I took Amtrak once, it wasn't so bad. I got free food and drink and more legroom than i have ever had in any other form of mass transport ever.

I'm a private pilot and we pretty much plan for one person== 180lbs at most.  If you're over that, you're considered "fat."  

I'm a private pilot and we pretty much plan for one person== 180lbs at most.  If you're over that, you're considered "fat."  If you're TWICE that size, then you're two people.  It's just that simple.  Has more to do with weight&balance than space really (especially on smaller planes).  I get equally as pissed when some premadonna rich lady brings a million tons of bags... she may as well be a fatty.

Now, I know in G.A. (general aviation), you're pretty much disallowed to fly if you're too big/unhealthy.  There are no fat pilots in aviation.  It's a safety hazard to themselves and their passengers when there are. 

As for big-iron commercial aviation... their seats are too small to begin with.  I dont blame fat people for this fact and the reality is the whole fat argument is  just one big airline lobby to keep their seats small.