f13.net

Do any of you people play competitive TF2? Does F13 have a team? Hit me up on Steam if so - Ray_ is my Steam name I think - and we can scrim if you're down.

Anyone play on the Lost Continents? Best pub servers around in terms of competition.

http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3144994

doh

I read the last few pages and saw that some of you were talking about competitive play, and I thought I'd add some random thoughts:

- 6v6 no crits, no damage spread, 2 each class except for demo and medic which are 1 each, play to 5 wins, use mp_tournament mode and specific server configs (IE cevo_push.cfg for push maps)

- It's very very very fun. The format seems restrictive, but it allows for the best balance between individual and team skill while discouraging crappy un-fun tactics and minimizing the random bits of the game - stuff like crits, excessive spam, getting into 8v2 situations, etc

- I've played 8v8 and highlander in leagues and while both are fun to a degree (and we were successful at them, to say the least), they don't match the rush and thrill of a good 6v6 match

- Most of the 6v6 teams out there aren't any good at all. There's a top tier of like 10 teams that are really good, then there's another 10-20 that are good, then there's like 200 that aren't good at all

- 6v6 turns TF2 into a highly strategic game with a lot of depth. It's almost like an entirely new game.

- The basic 6v6 team will run 1 medic, 2 soldiers, 2 scouts, and 1 demo. The scouts will "flex" to other classes like sniper or spy as needed. Sometimes one of the soldiers is subbed for a heavy - this is popular in Europe - but on maps where you have to get to the mid quickly (granary, badlands, etc) you're at an extreme disadvantage

- If you get into 6v6, fire up your IRC client again. Most of the TF2 stuff goes on at irc.gamesurge.net. There's a few channels to know: #tf2.gather.us and/or #tf2pug and/or #tf2pug.na for automated pugs. #tf2scrim to find a scrim for your team. #tf2ringer if you want to ring for an established team.

- Two websites to check out:

http://www.gotfrag.com/tf2/home/
http://communityfortress.com/

Finally, you can skip my entire post and read this article by a buddy of mine:
A Beginner's Guide to Competitive TF2 http://www.gotfrag.com/tf2/story/43759/

I used to follow you around, but that was months ago :) I stopped playing TF2 seriously, it got kind of boring!

I am still on the LC steam group, I get those notifications every once in a while.

I've been playing it daily over the past month or two and I'm starting to burn out. But, that's the case with all shooters right now. Can't even bring myself to play COD4.

I want COD4 but not COD4. I want an MMOFPS that's like COD4 style reward system. M.A.G?

I'm still playing TF2 almost nightly.  Even with all the vagaries of pub play I still prefer it to Serious Business competitive play.  A few nights ago I played a round where the entire team went Heavy and steamrolled our way through Dustbowl.  You don't get good times like that in "serious" games.

Yeah, nothing like the entire team playing spy but all disguising as friendly heavies to confuse the other side into  submission. Best goldrush ever.

Have you ever even played a real 6v6 match?

Yeah, you don't get "good times" - consisting of your entire team gimmicking and the other team being terrible all while playing a terrible map - like that in "serious" games. The fun in "serious" games is derived from the thrill of competition, the feeling of camaraderie, and the exhibition of personal skill. Airshotting a sticky-jumping demo with a rocket while you're defending the spire on badlands doesn't really ever happen in a pub because you've got 3 sniper dots on you and nobody knows how to sticky-jump or rocketjump anyway.

Don't get me wrong, I still play on pubs (see my post above) and have fun. I'm just suggesting that you don't knock competitive play until you actually try it.

"Competitive" play in my experience consists more of one team making up new rules on the spot and then ragequitting when the other team doesn't follow them.   :awesome_for_real:  But I am grateful that it exists because it keeps the "competitive" players off the servers I like to play on.

...yeah

Competitive TF2 follows a set standard of rules across the majority of leagues. There's very little rules lawyering during matches or scrims.

Why do you dislike people that play in leagues?

I know why I don't like them. It's because the "competitive" players are usually dicks.

They have to be. Anybody who's truly competitive will do anything to win. See Baseball and its steroid plagued masses. It applies in life to: the people who are competitive and work their ass off to win will get ahead. They've got no time for scrubs who get in their way towards their goal.

I need to find a server where everyone is really bad, so I can fit in.

Maybe you should start playing at the same time I do again, then. At least you'd always have me to beat.  :heart:

I'd be willing to play on a Noob-Skill-Only-Regardless-of-Amount-Played server if you made one.  My skills don't stack up, which is one of the reasons I stopped playing.

Do you play on bad pub servers or something? That doesn't even sound particularly hard.

Also, no snipers in "competitive play"?

It's not particularly hard, but it's satisfying. When's the last time you got airshot on a pub? The only times for me is when there were players who also play 6v6 on the other team.

There are snipers, but never 3 of them and hardly ever 2 of them. Why would you waste 2 of your 6 slots on snipers except under very specific scenarios? Even running 1 is a waste most of the time unless the sniper is exceptionally good.

You play sniper almost exclusively, I'm guessing.

You'd be correct. From your statements, I read that as saying "hurr no one plays sniper in 6v6." The servers I usually play on have been limiting snipers to 2, so when they're filled I alt over to medic or heavy. Maybe soldier since someone finally told me how to rocket jump.

Last time I got an airshot on a pub? With a soldier, or anything? I got a solder one last time I played, though I don't play the class often. I airshot constantly with sniper.

And yes, it is satisfying.  :drill: Just like when someone think they are hiding behind a corner, but the tip of something is sticking out for me to snipe off.

Why do you have two accounts Ray?

Because one/both were pre-banned when this site was first created :)

Edit: Meaning that one was created, then banned, then I created another one. At some point (I think when we were trying to line up a UT2k4 team DM match?) someone unbanned the first one.

Edit x2:

Airshot = a direct hit on an opponent with a rocket or pipe (projectiles only, hitscans don't "count") while the opponent is in mid-air (usually rocket- or sticky-jumping, but I suppose falling or a scout double-jumping would "count" as well)

Sorry if I wasn't clear on that

Come to the IktR server or LostBrother Hood server, or any sever that has 24 hour orange X.

I got an airshot as a sniper on a pub just last weekend.  It was  :drill:.

(http://www.tf2.com/sniper_vs_spy/images/AchievementIcons/sniper/tf_sniper_jumper_stumper.png)

Stop trolling me :(

Only if you stop stealing my pudding from the break room fridge.

How can you not airshot as a sniper? You get at least 50 chances on 2fort over the course of 15 minutes no matter what server you're on. You'd have to actively be trying to not hit scouts and soldiers to NOT get airshots.

It's just the terminology. It's technically still an airshot, just when people say something like "check out this sweet airshot in this frag video" you know they're either talking about a rocket or a pipe airshot, for example.

Anyone who said that to me, I'd know they're talking insane.

Ugh crap, posted with wrong account.

Anyway, check out this soldier frag video. Reptile is one of the best NA soldiers and it's pretty impressive. Note that this is 8 months old, and much of the footage is from before crits were disabled in league play.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MirFQlikIXY

I don't follow. You've never seen a frag video?

Helps to have a medic follow you everywhere, but some nice airshots. What is that blue line that is allowing him to (apparently) see through walls, at 2:56?

Well yeah, in 6v6 the medic always stays with his soldiers. Generally one is designated as the "pocket" and the other is in more of a roamer mode and they switch off as needed.

I mean, medics should be pocketing a soldier/heavy/good demo in pub play too, but most don't. Medics generally should never be in triage mode and should NEVER run across the map or more than a few feet away from their pocket.

The blue line is from wireframe mode I believe. These are all from recorded demos and then played back later, so you can do interesting things with camera angles and effects and shit.

I've never found soldier highlights to be that impressive. Same with demo. Splash damage makes it bit easier. Some good air shots, but it's not like they're impossible to do if you understand the basics of leading.

Or an arrow airshot.  Rifles are for pussies IMO.

Ugh, I hate to be like "I'd like to see YOU do it then" but...

They're not impossible, obviously. It DOES take a good amount of skill to land them, and even more skill to land them consistently.

Shooting a plane down with a rocket in BF1942 was impressive. To shoot someone that close with a rocket? Going to take a bit more to impress me.

If it's so easy and unimpressive, jump on an ammomod server, record a demo, and upload it for everyone to see :)

It's not that hard. Three in a row is impressive. I've seen that in a couple of the play of the week episodes and been impressed, but anyone who played Quake for any amount of time knows how to rocket juggle fairly well.

Again, it's easy to say and not so easy to do.

Watch some of the top end team's demos off of ESEA. These are the best players in the world and even they can't land them consistently.

FYI Quake rockets travel a hell of a lost faster than TF2 rockets. A LOT faster.

The play of the week episodes are from literally HUNDREDS if not thousands of hours of scrims and matches.

I've got plenty of hours logged in TF2; I know the rocket speed. As I said, three is awesome, one is meh. Once the new demo format comes out I'll be happy to post many a video of my awesomeness. I'm too lazy to deal with their current horrible system.

Now airshots with pills I find much more impressive.

 :oh_i_see:

I'm not articulating myself very well.

One isn't much to jump around about, I agree, but it DOES feel good and it IS out of the ordinary. In a normal scrim, there's usually only a handful of airshots. In a normal pub, you're lucky to see 1 or 2 happen in an entire game. That was really my original point. Here's what I said:


That's it, just that a good part of my enjoyment of 6v6 play in the generally higher quality of competition. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy pubbing it up every once in a while (am actually pubbing right now!) and I'm not really knocking it. I just prefer the 6v6 competitive format more, and I'd like to see people try it before entirely dismissing it :)

If that was the case, I'd be posting links to my own demos or CEVO record or something silly.

There's just a few people acting as if some of the more skilled techniques in the game are easy as pie, and I disagree. A lot of it is context (does Prospero play 6v6? Does NiX? I don't know.) and a lot of it is me not being clear with my definitions.

As I just said, I like pubbing every once in a while. One of my first posts in this thread was a link to a bunch of...pubs!

And I didn't call anyone a scrub.

I guess I'm a dick for trying to get you guys to try out the 6v6 format - or at least consider it - and not immediately dismiss it? I don't know.



BTW if you google ESEA, it's the first result. Sorry if it appeared I was being elitist. I don't even know what the acronym stands for!

People here mostly play games for fun, not for epeen waving. Not much of a crowd here for 'competition sport' stuff. Mostly because of the whole elitist pick thing.

That is all people are pointing out to you. And no, I don't watch 'frag' videos. I'd rather play the game than watch brags.

Oh I see. That makes sense.

I didn't realize that I don't have fun playing 6v6 tf2. Thanks for setting me straight. I see now that people only play competitive tf2 for epeen waving. Well, "play" is probably the wrong word - it implies that they have fun doing that activity. "Endure" may be a better word.

My eyes are open. I'm an elitist prick that endures 6v6 tf2 solely in order to wave something called an epeen. Why I would subject myself to an unfun activity simply so I could wave my epeen to...fuck, I don't know who I'd be waving it. Fill me in on that one?... I simply don't know. I'm sure you do though, so please do share.

I should probably call my psychiatrist.













Wait, no, it appears that you are the dick in this case. What with immediately dismissing a type of gameplay without trying it and assuming (quite wrongly!) that anyone that plays it is not only an elitist prick, but they're also narcissists that only "play" in order to brag. To whom, I have no idea. Neither do you, I'd bet.

You're the one proseletyzing for 6v6. This crowd doesn't do much of that thing, as you could see from everyone kinda shrugging it off when Thrawn suggested it.

No, you're a dick for taking everything personally, when people didn't show enthusiasm. I've played 6v6 and 12v12. I don't enjoy it as much as freeform. But you keep on keeping on.

People in public servers don't know how to rocket jump or sticky jump? When the fuck did this happen, because I haven't played in like a year and everyone was doing both of those then.

Done 5v5 arena league play. I get the format, I enjoy watching good frag vids, and even some matches. While I enjoy the intensity and team focus of 6v6, I find good ol' fashioned 12v12 with a mess of random and uncapped classes to be more fun. I think it's great you love 6v6. Get down with your bad self. But don't assume we are dismissing your preferred format out of ignorance; this isn't a politics thread.  :why_so_serious:

Now can we stop douching up a perfectly good thread about sniper awesomeness? I want to see more cool bow shots; I'm currently without an internet connection on my gaming PC and jonsing for some archery action.

rattran: I didn't take anything personally

Nerf: it's not like NOBODY knows how to, just in my experience most of them either don't know how to or don't know how to effectively - ie not knowing to crouch

Prospero: Fair enough. I thought I was being pretty polite and I didn't think there was really anything contentious about any of my posts at all until rattran started being a dick to me. So here's a picture of a heavy with some arrows in his head:

http://i28.tinypic.com/2h3pg07.jpg



AND HERE'S MY EPEEN WAVING JUST TO PROVE RATTRAN RIGHT!!!!

http://i28.tinypic.com/2yl7l9d.jpg

Oh wait that's on a pub :(

I think I enjoy dodging arrows more than firing them.

I don't play soldier anymore and that's not out of convenience. The class is fairly boring on pub servers. I'd rather FAN people to death, burn 'em or arrow their faces.

I get really frustrated playing soldier on pubs, especially because there's either 0 medics or 1 medic who's latched onto a heavy or a pyro. It's probably a testament to my lack of skill that I feel crippled if I don't have a medic with me at all times :)

Pyro is so much fun to play, but it's so very underpowered that it gets discouraging against competent players

They need to restore the 50HP on the backburner and remove flame damage falloff again.  Those were an entertaining few weeks  :awesome_for_real:

To be good with a pyro, it's necessary to know how to shoot the flare gun. Flare, flame, flare crit and they usually die before they can get to water or a health pack. Bonus if you can get behind them on the flame part.

Yeah, once you get the flare gun down and the air blast you can mess people up something fierce. Nothing like blowing up a medic with a rocket from his kritzkrieged soldier. The axtinguisher is lovely too if you can get them in the air.

Ugh to theorycrafting, but here goes:

1) You're acting like it's a 1v1 fight, it looks like. Stating the obvious, but that never really happens...

2) I prefer flaregun + axestinguisher personally

3) If you're fighting anyone at range that isn't an engineer or a medic, they're going to kill you before you can close in with the flamethrower

I really like the pyro, she's just not given the tools to be truly successful. The flaregun is fun as hell, it just doesn't go beyond being a fun gimmick in a lot of cases against even mediocre players :(


and yes, the pyro is a girl!

Forgot to add that airblasting ubers while defending a chokepoint-ridden map (see: dustbowl 3.2) is extremely useful of course, but it also highlights the failings of those maps.

Airblasting people off of E on Steel is a ton of fun, of course :)



edit: of course of course of course of course

Sounds more like attacking teams failing to remove pyros before using ubers on the bridge.

You're not accounting for the pubbie factor. Pubbies are persistent and determined. I've had no problem killing soldiers, demo men, scouts or snipers as a Pyro. You're thinking very literally and assuming you need the flamethrower to kill. I gave the optimal scenario, which you deemed as me thinking everything was a 1v1 fight. Guess what? It is. As a pyro you can't get greedy or you're dead. Fight as if it's You VS. 1 person and you win most of the time. It's the pyro that tries to burn groups that gets crushed and gets to watch them heal or jump in water. As for actual 1v1 scenarios, well, they happen all the time. At least for me.

As for your third point, it's the opposite. Those 2 classes can ravage a pyro with ease from a distance. The engi shotgun is deadly accurate and so is the needle gun in the hands of a decent medic. Rockets? I use the backburner and still don't have trouble killing soldiers, heavies or demo men.

Pyros are useful for defending the back point of point capture or cart maps, at least on pubs.  I've found the best defense in situations like that is to get a couple pyros who continue just charge the narrow chokepoints midmap, killing one or two and scattering the rest (better with a medic, of course).  Respawn, repeat- you don't know a lot of kills to scatter everyone and buy your team 20 or 30 seconds of peace.  If the attackers are always afraid of pyros around the chokepoints, they aren't attacking the final objective.

Of course, this could be counteracted by a sentry protecting the attackers' staging area, but that happens like 1 out of every 10 times in a pub. 

I've single handedly raped entire opposing sides with my Pyro.  Just keep attacking and never ever stop.

I bet if you played 6v6 like a real man you'd know better.

(edit) Splitting this out of the sniper update thread because it's annoying me.  Carry on.

You rock samwise. Thanks.

For some, I'm sure the idea of having a competitive environment where the class makeup of your team is somewhat rigid is fun.  For me, that seems like the exact opposite of fun.  The whole reason I LIKE TF2 is that I can hop from class to class depending upon what I feel like doing.

Why exactly is 6v6 the magic number for, "generally higher quality of competition?"  I would imagine you'd become too indoctrinated to play-style in that one setting after awhile, whether you like it or not.

I would just like to say I have logged many hours as a soldier, and I still totally suck at it, and I dont think I have ever hit anyone in the air with a rocket.

BTW, Ray, I recently bought Unreal on Steam, and playing it was giving me flashbacks of the Waterthread Unreal games and you in that fucking Manta.

I'd guess that's the minimum number before the capture/payload maps become imbalanced; with smaller teams it's too easy to have one lucky skirmish that kills all the defenders at once and leads to a quick game over.  Larger teams lead to slightly more frenetic and unpredictable games, which translates to "lower quality" for super serious types.

It seems like that would get a little boring after a while. But I totally suck at TF2, so who cares about me!

The pyro is a dude, the muffled voice is totally dudely. I wish they did have girls, though. Well done ones, though, not eye candy stupid ones. That would muck up the silhouette thing though.

And what would be so horrid about eye candy stupid ones? I'd play one with big bouncy tits just to get an extra second to kill the guy in front of me.

I would like to play a game where my choice of gender doesn't mean my character's main role is "eye candy for nerds." I obviously put up with it in, oh, every game ever, but a girl can dream.

That's getting into a whole politicsy sort of slap fight, though, so I shall SAY NO MOAR.

This thread was a retard slapfight derail to begin with.  Let's talk gender issues!

Do Alyx from HL2 or Chell from Portal fall into the eye candy category?  I think they're fairly representative of Valve female protagonists.

(edit) fuck you iPod keyboard

I think they were properly represented as female characters go. Valve understands that it's how they fit the story, not if they're the best eye candy.

Chell was pretty good as far as that type of character goes. She's a blank slate and her femaleness doesn't matter in the least. So she's good, but also a non-entity. I love GLaDOS though. Well, really I just love Portal. Anyway, I haven't actually played HL2, so I dunno about Alyx!

I do think Valve COULD add ladies to TF2 that wouldn't drive me crazy, really it's part of the reason I wish they would, but it isn't going to happen. :(

This is Alyx:
She's Gordon's sidekick slash sort of love interest in the HL2 series.

She's pretty but not all CHECK OUT MY TITS, so that's cool. I don't just fret about how they LOOK, though, I like them to have personalities beyond "I am the Girl and Love Interest." Alyx probably DOES, since Valve seems pretty good with making sure their characters have personalities, I just wanted to point out that the eye candy thing goes beyond "is she hawt" and touches on "OK, and does she have a personality?"

Ah, yes, I don't think there'd be a problem with female TF2 characters not having personalities.  Even the disembodied announcer has a personality.

I don't know why they didn't add female variants to TF2. You could just use their outfits to make the hitbox the same size as their male counterparts. If I were to take a guess, I'd say it was a decision based on their proposed demographic, which is probably ~95% male.

I suspect not having both male and female variants is more a content creation cost issue.  Think about all the work they'd have to do on dialogue alone if they added female characters.  I hold out hope that they'll add it in an update sometime after they've finished the first batch of weapons for all classes, but I can definitely see why they didn't launch with it.

Oh man, good times. That game was so fucking awesome and one of the best betas/demos I've ever experienced. Remember how the best onslaught map was in the fucking demo and we all played it like 24/7? That was great.

Very good point. That probably deterred them greatly, especially considering they were launching Portal and the rest with it.

6v6 just sort of works. Any more and the game because more chaotic and spammy, any less and it comes too empty. I didn't play competitively when the game was first out, so I don't know for sure, but I believe several leagues ran different formats until most of them settled on 6v6.

TWL (I think) still runs a 7v7 league.

There's 2-3 highlander leagues as well.

By the way, highlander is a really fun format. It's really simple: 9v9, 1 of each class per team. You know, "there can be only one!"

You beat me to it, although CTF and pl_ maps aren't generally played much competitively.
Competitive play is setup the way it is in order to eliminate as many of the random aspects of gameplay as possible in order for teamwork and skill to be the focus. Hence no crits, no damage spread, low amount of spammy classes (demo, soldier), and fewer players to a side.



It actually stays pretty tense on most maps  because the action is focused on specific areas like chokes and control points.

Pyro's totally a chick, check out the purse in the locker in spawn!


Why are you such a fucking prick? Does it really make you mad that some people have fun with other types of gameplay that has no bearing on your individual enjoyment of the game?

By the way, there are some female skins out there. The most popular one is probably the scout variant: http://www.fpsbanana.com/skins/39114

I don't think there's any complete female skin packs, though.

As mentioned by someone else, the biggest problem with female variants is the dialog. Think about many hundreds of lines of dialog would need to be recorded again.

Speaking of skins, I don't use any now but I've used two in the past that were sort of funny:

1) Mustache pack. Just adds some cool 'staches to each character: http://www.fpsbanana.com/skins/32880
2) Black pack. Turns every character black: http://www.fpsbanana.com/skins/30854
Note: there is a separate Caucasian skin for the demo if you wanna go all the way

 :awesome_for_real:

Also, that minstrel pack is CLASSY.

I never thought of it that way, but I suppose I could see how it would be offensive to some.

What's is the white skin for the demoman called, then?

I don't play TF2 competitively, so this may just be the wrong direction in thinking, but are competitive teams really able to control themselves on that aspect?  Maybe something has changed with a recent patch, but as far as I can tell, the demo is still a ridiculous death machine in experienced hands, moreso than many other classes, especially with the right area (decent healthpack locations, good ledges and corners).

Last I checked the only get one demo in most leagues. The fact they are running mostly cp maps with organized teams keeps spam from being too effecive with just one cyclops running around.

Right, demo is restricted to 1 per team, as are medics.

As mentioned, I think they just didn't have time, etc. Since I suspect that the Lady Heavy, for example, wouldn't just be the heavy in a skirt, but she'd have her OWN personality, ultimately I don't mind they just cut it instead if my other option was something slapped together as an afterthought.  Y'know?

Especially if compared to the other classes you could tell they were half-assed.

Ray, for the love of god, learn to edit. :uhrr:

Female heavy would rock. It'd have to be Olga the Opera Singer. "DA FAT LADY HAS JUST SANG" Thatd be too much awesomeness to handle.

It would be pretty damn awesome.

Maybe in TF3.  :awesome_for_real:

Their model so far has been to update the fuck out of TF2 rather than save stuff for a sequel.  I can definitely see new character models as something they could do a big update for.  Assuming they did a good job, they'd get just as much good press and new sales as they have been with the weapon updates.

That was the plan for L4D. Add new models and maps. Turned out to be a sequel.

Yeah.  I'm hoping that experiment will be confined to L4D and that they'll keep updating TF2 as they have been rather than deciding it's time to make the next weapons pack part of TF3.

Adding new characters to TF2 doesn't carry the baggage it does in L4D. Everybody refers to each other by class so there is no need to rework the original voice acting, and the maps/characters don't form a story, so there's no need for a set of 20 maps. The only collateral they would probably have is a new Meet the Ladies movie or some such.

I'm hoping TF3 is Team Fortress, but with vehicles.That I would gladly pay more for.

An early idea was a deployable machine-gun nest that could be wielded by two players. Things like that would be cool.

Wasn't that an idea from the mid 90s TF2?

You mean a heavy/medic team?

Heh.

The Heavy should be renamed "Deployable Machine Gun Nest." But only when a medic is attached.

Lady gibs wouldn't be as comical as male gibs.

It would be funny to see a gib that was a breast though.

What would be the difference?

They'd be. You know. Ladies.

I was thinking nipples

(http://dl-client.getdropbox.com/u/39720/f13/tf2_ladies.png)

Man, I totally just snortlaughed.  :heart:

I'm not Chell!

Also,

Hi!  :heart:

omg hi

If TF2 added dwarf boobs, would you play it with me?

How is that less comical?

absolutely no fun was had in the making of this screenshot:
http://i32.tinypic.com/2ugox1d.jpg (http://i32.tinypic.com/2ugox1d.jpg)

I thought everyone here would enjoy it, though!

I don't mean to be a prick, but... why?

Because of the whole discussion regarding the reasons people play competitively. Someone mentioned that my postings were thinly veiled attempts at waving around my internet penis.
Now there's no veil: it's all about my iDick!

You can't play TF2 on a mac.

Anyway, yea, it was pretty obvious it was about your internet penis the moment you mentioned that kind of server. No one cares about restrictions made by fans on shit except people who need a controlled environment where people will care about their internet penis. In other words, the reason this got split off and no one gave a shit is because serious rules made by people who aren't the devs are generally made and followed by people half of the people here would probably smack in the face through the internet - if such a technology existed.

It was actually about trying to get you guys to try it. I'm mediocre at best and my team is...not good. I consider myself a normal TF2 player. Also it's not a server type :)

A controlled environment isn't about need - I play on pubs a ton still - it's about enjoying competition. Rules and organization only enhances that.

The rules are all made by the devs, and the devs support the competitive community. Ever wonder why mp_tournament mode got added? Specifically to help out the competitive community. What about the cvar to disable damage spread? Same thing, because it was a plugin until Valve got around to coding it in.

Lots of public servers have lots of different rules. Some have crits on, some have crits off. Some run stock maps, some don't. Some have 32 player slots, some have 16. Do you want to smack people that play on 32-player 24/7 2fort instantspawn servers in the face through the internet?

You make it sound like a controlled environment is a bad thing. I've never been griefed off of a scrim/match server because an engineer is using a teleporter exploit, or someone is aimbotting, or spamming HLSS and using the well-known bug to remove themselves from your mute list.

Do you hate people that join guilds too? What about people that raid in whatever MMO you're playing?

It's pretty clear that you have no real idea what you're talking about it, especially with the way you're generalizing about a whole hell of a lot of people who probably spend the majority of their TF2 time on public servers. I'd love to see you and some of the guys here form a team and sign up for a league. Not to see you lose, because you'll probably win some. No, I'd like to see you actually experience what you're putting down without having seriously tried it. Oh, and maybe you'll realize that you're completely ass-backwards in your opinion of competitive players.

The internet penis thing is fucking retarded. I guess people join real-life company sports leagues to waving their real penis? Can you even explain who the hell I'm waving my penis at in the first place? You really come off as the fat kid who throws a basketball at the basket with 30 other kids during PE and irrationally hates the kids that organize pickup games after school...and who also likes shooting around during PE and has no ill feelings towards you at all. Weird analogy, but whatever.

Internet penis waving is bragging about your duel record and challenging everyone you see to a duel, or sitting at brit west bank on your pure black mare and blessed clothes or something. Playing scrims and in leagues is so far away from that, I can't possibly see where you're coming from.


Oh, and not trying to be a dick or anything, really...but that last line about smacking people in the face through the internet? Made you sound like a pussy irl :(









btw trolled

no

I'm not sure you understand the point of competition, then.

I completely understand the point of competition. But layering some pile of bullshit rules on top of the guidelines already put forth by a game, unless they're absolutely ridiculuos rules to make for an absolutely ridiculous game, strikes me as BS - as I'm sure it does the majority of people around here.

Also, six players to a team in TF2 - of all games - is just incredibly stupid to me.

What rules do you consider bullshit? Tell me and I'll give you the reason they exist. You may still think they're bullshit, but there ARE reasons and usually good ones.



If you're not just trolling me and aren't completely closeminded, read on and I'll explain a little about the reasons for the six-to-a-team standard.

As I've mentioned, there are also 8v8 and 9v9 leagues.
My first taste of competitive TF2 was in 8v8, and I really enjoyed it. It's biggest issues were: A) Too spammy. Remember that all 8 people are coordinating together, so you often get more concentrated spam on specific chokepoints than a 12v12 game. B) The level of competition was poor and there aren't many teams playing it. C) Getting 16 on at the same time is tough. D) Getting 8 on to scrim is really hard
9v9 is highlander, and it's really fun. It's works better as an event that tons of people are invited to and then teams are picked rather than as a league. Getting 18 people together at the same time is hard, and forget about getting the 9 people on your team together to practice a few times a week.

6v6 has the benefit of being a lot easier to schedule and organize. Getting your 6 teammates together a few times a week is relatively easy.

Strategy is much more important and can actually be executed, vs the chaos of 12v12 where you have no chance of knowing where all of your teammates are, much less the other team. It's not like a raid in a MMO either, you can't just have the leader talking. EVERYONE has to be talking - calling positions, spotting the other team, saying if you die, telling your team who you killed, etc. That just can't happen with 12v12.

How often do you see any sort of organization in 12v12? Sort of regularly, but look at the numbers: it's usually 6 or less guys working together. Any more than that and it breaks down.

It also cuts down heavily on the spam. 1 demo and 2 soldiers can still spam a good deal, but it's suppressive spam or covering fire. You don't get many kills by spamming. Conversely, in 12v12 I can top the scoreboard by spamming chokepoints as a demo quite easily because there's also a few other demos doing the same thing. There's so many players and so much explosive spam going on that you get kills (and stall the fuck out of the other team) without exhibiting any real skill or even really trying.

With 6 players to a team, each player means a hell of a lot more. If you get a headshot on the fully-charged and about to uber enemy medic in 12v12, gj but it probably won't change the eventual outcome of the game. Do the same thing in 6v6? You may have just won the game for your team.

I realize that only 6 to a team probably sounds like it would make the maps feel empty. It doesn't, though. The chokepoints and the control points are still the focus of the maps and are constantly being fought over.


There was a lot of contention early on about what format was the best. I wasn't even remotely interested in competitive play back then, but here's an article from that time period that went over some of the opinions and pros/cons: http://www.gotfrag.com/tf2/story/41529/

Here's a quote from that article quoting a player that echos what I said above:
"I hate to say it but its a LOT easier to scrim 6v6 as well - in TFC we'd have to schedule scrims days in advance because it would be 8v8 or 9v9."





 

Just ignore schild, he doesn't get it.

No, I completely get it. Particularly having lived with an uber-competitive game that makes Ray look casual (Agnarth if you're wondering, though I don't think either of you ever played with him). Though, in this particular case, no matter how many times he explains it, 6v6 TF2 strikes me as unfun shlock. And yes, I read his post. He said spam 8 times.

I am casual, though.

Spam sucks. Gotta get that point across.

Spam is simply part of the game and even playing constantly on 32 man servers, it's never gotten to the point where it's impossible to be a spy and such.

Also, no one who writes that much about the competitive rules and why they think it's better is "casual." You're probably on the top 5% of the top 5% of hardcore style players with crap like that. Not professional, obviously, but certainly top tier in terms of hardcoreness.

You're a better man than I.   :awesome_for_real:

Doing a stellar job there helping to encourage people to give competitive TF2 a try, bucko. 

I guess the positive side of epeen waving is that when one of them sticks me in the eye, the resulting squint means that I will be temporarily unable to see the fuckstupid alphabet soup names that "competitive" players invariably seem to come up with.

Also, what Valmorian said.

IMO the main reason threads get out of hand is the flashing or mentioning of penis.. I'd say ghey, but that's like forbidden and not PC

Competitive play benefits in two areas, it makes players want to get better as a team, and allows players to increase their skill.

I was in clans of various types over the FPS internet age, and competitive ones, that were in leagues or actively playing, formed more tight nit communities. The competition is a badge of honor for some people, but it's more about getting together with a common goal, to have a good time trying... except when people become sore losers or above mentioned male members.

I originally thought Ray was coming here looking for decent scrim people, but then again with the whiny trolling that seems to accompany this thread I would recommend against that. I still play from time to time Ray, and will come give your servers some brain cells to splatter.

Either way this thread is off the hook funny, and I certainly hope the trolling from all sides continues.

 :popcorn:

Concentrated spam is called suppressing the enemy in real gunfights. People who call it spam are the ones who die from it.

I don't really have a problem with competitive play(until a group of clanmates decide that it'll be fun to faceroll all over a team of pubbies), but I stopped being interested in it for the same reasons I no longer really bother with guilds in WoW: I already have a job, and when I'm playing games I'm not looking for the abstraction of another.

Bingo! That was the original reason, for sure. I remember playing with some of you guys way back when tf2 first released and was wondering if A) f13 had formed a team, or B) anyone from f13 was on a team - and that we could maybe get a scrim together.
I had a thought to see if you guys would be interested in a pickup game or something if neither of the two applied. Basically get at least 12 people on a server, pick teams, and go at it. Once the match is over, pick new teams, incorporating the players that didn't play the first match.

Also think you guys would enjoy highlander, but that requires at least 18 so it's a little harder to get going.

I don't see where my posts were so offensive, especially in light of the responses I received. I certainly didn't mean to be a dick or to put anyone down until well after my posts and my person were attacked. Even then, I thought my responses were pretty restrained and I tried to remain civil and constructive.

The first part is correct. It becomes detrimental to fun gameplay when there's too much of it going on especially at chokepoints. Think dustbowl 3.2. Not only does that point become really unfun, but it makes certain classes completely useless - how many times have you see a scout be remotely effective there?

I actually agree, which is why I'll never be a top-tier player in a top-tier clan.
I've formed two teams for TF2 so far, and both of them formed out of friends that I already played with and knew. Maybe it's a stupid distinction, but I've always felt that I crossed the line when I started recruiting people I don't know and it becomes about winning more than about playing with friends and having fun.

I've got the hint though, guys. I'll stay out of your playground here; no more debating from me. If anyone has any questions or wants to organize some games, I'm definitely down for that. I really do think most of you would find some organized pickup games fun, but unfortunately most of you have this negative kneejerk reaction to anything even close to competitive play :(

That's probably another big factor for myself and the retard rodeo of guys that I call friends: they all play WoW or stupid xbox shit.  I'd probably be more inclined to do some semi-competitive team games if I wasn't the only person playing Day of Defeat or Fortress.

Organized pick-up games ≠ competitive play

I think the main problem was that you came in here touting it as being better than pubbie play, when in reality they are two very different ways to play the game. A lot of us like to just shoot stuff without having to adhere to any real rules outside of those set by the game itself. Competitive play adds another layer, with restrictions and guidelines. Not to mention that it's filled with competitive people, some of which who call themselves "pros". Not my cup of tea and it never will be. Games lose their fun the minute I'm told to take it seriously.

I'm not really sure which thread to post this in, but since this is apparently the retard thread...

Any recommendations on a god-I-suck server?  I just picked up Orange Box (yay relatives) and I am apparently the drooling inversion of Stephen Hawking when it comes to TF2.

I think you're thinking of it the wrong way. There aren't any rules or restrictions that aren't coded into the game like the infamous 2fort bridge truce in TFC.

It's just specific server configs is all, just like the servers that allow 32 players or have winlimit set to 500 or anything like that. Here's part of the cevo config:

tf_damage_disablespread          "1"
tf_weapon_criticals            "0"

tf_tournament_classlimit_medic          "1"
tf_tournament_classlimit_demoman       "1"
tf_tournament_classlimit_soldier       "2"
tf_tournament_classlimit_engineer       "2"
tf_tournament_classlimit_scout          "2"
tf_tournament_classlimit_spy          "2"
tf_tournament_classlimit_heavy          "2"
tf_tournament_classlimit_pyro          "2"
tf_tournament_classlimit_sniper       "2"
tf_tournament_hide_domination_icons       "1"

mp_tournament                          "1"
mp_timelimit             "30"
mp_winlimit             "5"
mp_autoteambalance          "0"
sv_alltalk                "0"

sv_pure                  "2"

You say that you want to play without having to adhere to any real rules outside of those set by the game itself. I agree. I hate rules that require rules lawyering and he-said/she-said that aren't enforceable by the game. That's not what competitive TF2 is, though.

I mean, ALL servers have rules. Some have no crits, some have class limits...you get my point.

So yeah, my thought was for a pick-up game using the standard competitive server configs. That's how I started playing 8v8 and 6v6. A bunch of us jumped on a server, execed the config, picked teams, conferred on classes, then went at it. I sort of thought the same way you do before I started playing in PUGs.

Unless you're thinking of a pickup as just everyone jumping on a 24-man server with the default config and random joining teams? Wasn't really what I was talking about it!

So would anyone be interested in playing in a pickup game the way I described above? I'd be happy to host it, and I think you'd have a blast.

I try to avoid servers that have any of those.   :awesome_for_real:  I just wish they'd do a better job of tagging themselves so I could filter them out up front.

Yeah, this is a lost cause. I'm going to go drink bleach now.

(http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y147/Zheel/successful-troll-is-successful.jpg)

Ray if tf2 had an automated scrim system you have much better argument.

I played TF2 competitively for the first few months that the game was out. I'll just say that it's not really designed to be a competitive game.

It's a fun game, though, and I still play every now and then.

TFC was never designed as a competitive game, but it didn't stop people from eventually coming up with this shit (http://tfc.sta-league.org/rules.html#sec6) to try to turn it into one:


(edit) I only know about these rules because the last time I tried to play TFC (just before TF2 came out), I couldn't find a server to play on that didn't expect everyone to abide by them.  Those servers are probably still around, populated by a small handful of mental patients who alternate between complaining that TF2 doesn't have grenades and screaming at each other not to use grenades because it's cheating.

All those TFC rules about chasing and crap are mind boggling. I played in the Iron Glove League way back when in qwtf, and it had none of those rules. The rules were the winning conditions and the number of people you could have on your side. Any further rules beyond that are excessive, in my opinion.

As much as I hate crit rockets, turning off crits is just retarded, especially if you play sniper and your crits are not a mistake or up to chance.

I completely agree. So does Valve, thankfully, since changing tf_weapon_criticals to 0 doesn't disable crits from headshots or backstabs or the kritzkrieg.

Hey Nija, long time no see.
Valve has actively worked towards improving the support for the various competitive formats. Their goal seems to build in the support for competitive play into the game as an option. Were you still playing when mp_tournament was added? That was a huge statement by Valve affirming their support for competitive play.

That along with a bunch of other small additions/changes since release have prevented any of the retarded TFC-esque nonsense that Samwise posted.


Not that anyone cares, but my new team won it's first league match today! Woohoo! 4 out of the 6 players hadn't ever played in a league match yet, so I am pretty proud of my guys. It helped that the other team wasn't very good, aside from their demo/soldier. Here's the results if anyone cares (I know nobody does, but I'm posting anyway!): http://www.thursday.com/tf2logger/Butt_Town_vs_FSM/index.html

Good job dude (I felt like you needed some encouragement after all the trolling in this thread).

Frankly? Just looking at that log turns me off TF2 competitive play, if I ever needed further reason to avoid that 1% of 1% mentality.

I do love this line though:   :awesome_for_real:

Nah. I actually found an old log parse of one of our matches.

http://www.thursday.com/tf2logger/qf_re_granary_rd2/index.html (http://www.thursday.com/tf2logger/qf_re_granary_rd2/index.html)

Yeah, that was really funny considering the context:


For context: http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5hwsOf3W-mzdKH394cL5Yynruh6TQ
One of my co-workers was on that helicopter.
Hilarious!!!!!! What a great line!!!!

The fact that "droids" is the worst player on a terrible team doesn't really make me feel any better :(

If by worst, you mean funniest. Yes he's the worst.

eh.

Woah, you are edgy as fuck!!!


In news that doesn't involve making jokes about my recently deceased friends, here's a link to an interview with Robin Walker: http://communityfortress.com/tf2/news/exclusive-interview-with-valves-robin-walker.php

You sure are touchy for someone who plays competitively on the internet.

Hey cool, that guide I linked to way in the beginning of this thread got linked to by the official TF2 blog: http://www.teamfortress.com/post.php?id=2711

Why does this thread yet live?

Because it's fun to watch Ray flail around looking for praise and attention?

You're fucking dumb, Samwise. You know as well as I do that your mother gives my cock enough praise and attention. The only flailing going on is in your tiny neckbearded brain, broseph :)

Please note: This thread still exists because of the comedy, example the most recent comments:


I still think it exists because Ray wants you F13 people to go onto a server and put your money where the mouth is, but I also think there's many trolls lurking around this thread feeding off it's negative energy.

I hope this thread still lives because F13 was going to try a competitive group, and the more I play, the more a pre made group seems to be the only way to improve past a certain point.. Working with pub people pisses me off, especially when the teamwork failing is the reason our team fails.

Given up on praise, eh?

I don't think f13 was ever going to try a competitive group with those rules.

Those rules are fucking clownshoes, and practically all the people here who would be on such a team have Better Things To Do.

This should be frontpaged because it would attract the right people.

So a few of us from corp/#hate are going to play a pickup game, come on if you're interested


Vent info: chicago-ventrilo.apoplexyservers.com 3804


TF2 server: connect 67.202.71.164:27015; password scrim

Welcome back!

apoplexysevers is such a fitting name for a place where 'competitive gamers' congregate.

I think trying to recruit people to play competitively from a Website made of of people who got picked last for every sport in grade school probably isn't going to work. 

Not for soccer!  :raspberry:

Seeking approval from people you seemingly despise is a bit sad.  None of your new Xbox pals want to play?

Xbox?

Yea, really puts into perspective how small his group of friends is now, doesn't it?

Don't be an asshole, Slog.

I didn't get picked last in gym, so NYAH.

I did. :cry:

Isn't that the cream of the crop for competitive FPS players though?

No, you still have to have reflexes and dexterity in real life to be good at a FPS.

On the PC anyway.

"Picked last for sports" in my school generally meant you were a scrawny, unpopular kid though.  Nothing about how good your reflexes were.

Besides, it's generally the social outcasts who had the time to hone those FPS "skillz".

I was more trying to get at the "not interested in Team Competition aka football or baseball" more than the "trips over their own feet when kicking a ball" but your mileage may vary.

We have quite a few people who used to play competitive football here.

Handegg not so much.

I think I avoided every competitive sport there was out there. Also I throw like a girl, I don't know which way the causality flows on that one.

I was the scrawny kid, had nothing to do with actual skill.

Fuck them haters.  :awesome_for_real:

I once totally stuffed a dude's spike on the "omg gym volleyball is serious business" court. Apparently this resulted in some locker room mockery, but said dude insisted it wasn't REALLY something to be embarrassed about, because "she's like 12 feet tall." Good times.

There are a handful of us that have logged 50+ Hours (or in my case about 130-150) in a competitive game with actual set, hard rules: League of Legends.

If any of you want to play that competitively, sure. If not, I may see you on an annoying 4chan-like server in TF2 some day.

Ugh, I remember trying the TF2 4chan server while drunk one night.  It had some cool maps, but the sound was like something out of a nightmare.  I had to fire up winamp and disable tf2's sound.

I admire the attempt at an insult, but...uhh...what?

I don't know many people who play TF2 at that skill level, obviously I don't have any friends. At all.

Whatever man :)

I feel like a broken record, but one more time: there are actual set, hard rules in competitive TF2.

You're persistent.  But so is herpes.

We got it dude.  Set rules.  You're too hardcore for the majority of the video game players, and therefore making up your own rules is cool.  Because you have to.  You know?  Right?  Game designer's vanilla bullshit just isn't good enough when you absolutely, positively have got to dominate supremely.  Hardcore.  Hardcore.  Did you mention you had skill?  Yea, you kind of are a broken record.  You can either shut the fuck up, or continue to provide us with your vehement stupidity, so that we may chuckle anonymously over the interbutts.  You're choice, bro.

P. S.  How was that for an insult?

Pretty terrible. Keep trying though. I like seeing you all hot 'n' bothered.

Needed more talk about air shots.

I once got a Sniper Airshot on a Cloaked Spy.  True story.

It's not even that hard if you see him cloak. :grin:

Someone was bitching at me that I killed them with an air bodyshot. I had to explain that when someone drops off a ledge like that, it's actually a fairly easy shot, compared to someone running around all over the place - less lateral movement,  and falling is actually pretty easy to lead.

I didn't see him cloak.  And mine was no mere body shot.  It was a lolhedshawt.  It was also pure skill.  I used telepathy.  Most people don't have that.  I do though.  I'm pro.

Doug, or Jeremy?