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Title: PA & PVP versus old media comics Post by: WindupAtheist on April 24, 2009, 08:45:15 PM A little old, but fun. Editorialist cartoons realizing they're doomed, webcomic guys telling them to suck it.
Link. (http://dailycartoonist.com/index.php/2009/03/31/aaec-convention-plans-shaping-up/#comments) Quote from: Kurtz from PVP Yeah, too bad you weren’t acutely aware of this when we first reached out to you guys five years ago. Back when you laughed at us and told us to be quiet while the adults were talking. Back when you told Jimmy Johnson that despite my credentials, his sponsoring me for the NCS was moot because of my character. So yeah. I’m telling you to go #%@!! yourself now. What did you honestly expect me to do? Quote from: Some newspaper cartoonist yah, cuz like, everybody knows the only things that truly matter on this planet are video games Quote from: Gabe from PA When 60,000 people come to Abell-con you can give me shit. Fun stuff! Title: Re: PA & PVP versus old media comics Post by: schild on April 24, 2009, 09:16:11 PM Penny Arcade is the obscene, ridiculous outlier in this whole conversation. Their huge success is largely due to a thesaurus and being the family circus of web comics. Not an insult so much as saying "it can be consumed by everyone." But really, it's like the star quarterback of the varsity football team, they're dumb but everyone loves them. And now that QB is beating up the special ed class.
And really, Wiley made the only comment necessary: Quote I think that’s great what you and Scott Kurtz developed, Mike. You both got into it early and were ahead of the pack. The pack now, however is literally thousands of webcomics thrown out there on the internet, which, to many of us, makes it an impenetrable maze to wade through of horrifically bad stuff before finding anything of quality, such as Penny Arcade and PvP. Edit: Also, I wasn't aware people still read PvP, news to me! Title: Re: PA & PVP versus old media comics Post by: Yegolev on April 24, 2009, 09:51:50 PM I don't know if PA is the Family Circus, but PvP is the Ziggy. One day, I guess, we will gather around the holocron to watch the holiday favorite How Brent Sienna Stole Christmas.
Title: Re: PA & PVP versus old media comics Post by: WindupAtheist on April 24, 2009, 10:50:57 PM PA may or may not be funny on any given day (whenever I see that Samurai Gabe with a cardboard tube shit I know it's gonna be a bad week) but on the whole their batting average is high enough to keep me coming back. That bit with the Guitar Hero: Nirvana box and the plastic shotgun peripheral the other day was awesome. I know nothing about PVP since the Not Funny of it slaps me in the face whenever I try going near it, but it's fun to watch the guy flame.
PA and their megabucks empire may be an outlier, but the guy who does Dreamland Chronicles turns up in there and says he makes a decent living at it, and who the hell reads fucking Dreamland Chronicles? The real bottom line of the discussion, in my mind, is that there has to be SOMEONE out there who will go out of their way to read your comic and most editorial cartoons are just space-filler. Title: Re: PA & PVP versus old media comics Post by: schild on April 24, 2009, 10:53:37 PM Quote PA and their megabucks empire may be an outlier, but the guy who does Dreamland Chronicles turns up in there and says he makes a decent living at it, and who the hell reads fucking Dreamland Chronicles? The real bottom line of the discussion, in my mind, is that there has to be SOMEONE out there who will go out of their way to read your comic and most editorial cartoons are just space-filler. My perception of what is needed to "make a living" in the last 6 months has changed fucking drastically. When I hear that now, I'm thinking $200 above rent+utilities. For a month. That's "a living." Title: Re: PA & PVP versus old media comics Post by: apocrypha on April 24, 2009, 11:10:13 PM Of course the major problem for newspaper cartoonists trying to find a new market is that most of them are shit. The newspapers haven't been pushing for quality in their cartoons for decades and syndication has meant that the cartoonists themselves have no need to try and produce anything of quality.
An obvious exception to this is Trudeau but then Doonesbury has been syndicated to multiple publications for years and has a strong web presence, so he's another outlier really. The Guardian (UK) also has Steve Bell, and his work is so good that it's often the only truthful thing in the newspaper, and certainly the only reason to ever actually buy it, but again, an outlier. And it's kinda depressing to see all the bickering between web cartoonists and print cartoonists like that. These people are all just trying to do the same thing - make a living from drawing stuff - and they all have to compete with each other instead of working together and learning from each other. Title: Re: PA & PVP versus old media comics Post by: Soln on April 24, 2009, 11:34:14 PM that thread is fucking epic.
* that conference has Bezos speaking -- how'd they managed that? He didn't even turn up when they broke ground this week to build the new Amzn HQ. * PA probably makes money now YOY than some major dailies. Don't believe me? See PAX. * Gabe hates editorial cartoonists. * Yahtzee hates web cartoonists. (http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/zero-punctuation/108-Webcomics) * cycle of life continues. (http://www.imagedump.com/image.cgi?file=548246.jpg) Title: Re: PA & PVP versus old media comics Post by: FatuousTwat on April 25, 2009, 12:01:18 AM Can I hate both, or do I have to pick a side?
Title: Re: PA & PVP versus old media comics Post by: schild on April 25, 2009, 01:10:05 AM You can hate both.
Quote PA probably makes money now YOY than some major dailies. Don't believe me? See PAX. PA was making more money YOY than dailies long before PAX. I'm not sure whether you're stating that to surprise people or inform though. Though, I'd guess, it would come as a shock to absolutely nobody here (wrong crowd maybe?). Title: Re: PA & PVP versus old media comics Post by: Kail on April 25, 2009, 01:56:01 AM Of course the major problem for newspaper cartoonists trying to find a new market is that most of them are shit. The newspapers haven't been pushing for quality in their cartoons for decades and syndication has meant that the cartoonists themselves have no need to try and produce anything of quality. Yeah, this. I'm not about to claim that webcomics are awesome and pure win, but when a professional of 30+ years in the comic industry is having trouble keeping up with a bunch of amateurs working out of their parents basements with MSPaint, then the comic industry has some serious damn problems. 75% of webcomics exist because someone looks at a comic (print or web) and says "that looks easy enough that I could do it." And newspaper comics are a huge source for this (largely because they have to print daily). The art is horrible. The writing is just as bad. People look at that and say "why the hell is Jim Davis getting paid for this when any idiot with a xerox machine could do it." This is not a commercial endeavor which is on the way up. If syndicates aren't paying for it, nobody will, unless they can find another media to fasten themselves to. Really, though, I don't know of anyone who cares that much, aside from presumably the authors themselves. They'll find some way to adapt or they won't. Either way, I won't be mourning the loss of The Born Loser or whatever. Title: Re: PA & PVP versus old media comics Post by: Merusk on April 25, 2009, 05:10:38 AM The cartoonists are all whining and complaining that they're losing money because their media is a dead art, but they don't realize they suck. The successful web cartoonists - whether they suck or not - pointed out years ago that the paper was dying and, hey, maybe you should start looking at some other model. Whoops, time has come and now those mediocre artists have their share and the other mediocre artists are floundering in misery. Tee. Hee.
PA and PVP are successful because they're established. Yeah, it's hard to get found now amidst the thousands of mediocre bits, but if they'd jumped on earlier their mediocrity would have carried them in the new medium like it did the old. Those critical of how 'midline' and 'mediocre' PVP and PA are seem to forget you are a different crowd from the masses. The lack of wanting to be challenged and simply entertained applies to all media for large audiences not just movies, games and books. Pablum sells continually IF you can get a market. In webcomics that means you had to be established years ago. Fuck, Jim Davis established Garfield on this very premise. He was NEVER an artist, he was a Marketer who read something about the popularity of cats and said "Hey, what if I make a comic about a cat who hates mondays. People would eat that shit up and I could make a mint on the merchandising." He's unabashedly admitted this, and proven himself right. Title: Re: PA & PVP versus old media comics Post by: Yegolev on April 25, 2009, 06:44:09 AM Can I hate both, or do I have to pick a side? Side-picking is for pussies. Dicks go right down the middle. EDIT because this thread happily reminded me of the best webcomic ever: Garfield Minus Garfield (http://garfieldminusgarfield.net/). Title: Re: PA & PVP versus old media comics Post by: Hoax on April 25, 2009, 08:58:44 AM You can hate both. Quote PA probably makes money now YOY than some major dailies. Don't believe me? See PAX. PA was making more money YOY than dailies long before PAX. I'm not sure whether you're stating that to surprise people or inform though. Though, I'd guess, it would come as a shock to absolutely nobody here (wrong crowd maybe?). On a related note, does anyone here not think Schild hates PA because he would have done it better if he only knew someone who could draw and had gotten in on the ground floor? PA is a fairly funny and a nice easy way to keep up to date on game happenings, teh hate is silly. Title: Re: PA & PVP versus old media comics Post by: Soln on April 25, 2009, 10:21:41 AM The only surprise about PA in that thread for me was they employ on 10 people. Would've thought x2 or x3 times that with PAX, which is now going to the East coast, then EU, then Mars.
Title: Re: PA & PVP versus old media comics Post by: Ironwood on April 25, 2009, 10:25:32 AM The thread was really interesting. What's even more interesting is that, even as they state they understand, it becomes clear that the editorial chaps have NO IDEA how the web actually works and what you need to do in it in order to define a market.
That's what it's all about for these chaps : Where their market is. And therein lies the bad news. Title: Re: PA & PVP versus old media comics Post by: Yoru on April 25, 2009, 10:51:01 AM The only surprise about PA in that thread for me was they employ on 10 people. Would've thought x2 or x3 times that with PAX, which is now going to the East coast, then EU, then Mars. For conventions, you don't have a huge fulltime staff. Your fulltime staff is small and supplemented by a handful of hardcore, long-time volunteers. You then bring in a handful of temporary paid folks a bit before/during the con, and the bulk of your work is done by seasonal volunteers. You'd be surprised what you can get geeks to do for free. Title: Re: PA & PVP versus old media comics Post by: UnSub on April 25, 2009, 10:57:17 AM I appreciated the "my royalty cheques haven't shrunk at all" vs. the "so I've been laid off by my syndicate just like many of you" posts.
Title: Re: PA & PVP versus old media comics Post by: schild on April 25, 2009, 11:21:09 AM On a related note, does anyone here not think Schild hates PA because he would have done it better if he only knew someone who could draw and had gotten in on the ground floor? I would have gotten bored way too fast. I don't hate PA so much as out of the thousands of comics they've done, I've only found 4 or 5 of them really funny. As such their success absolutely baffles me. Or rather, the fact they keep getting more popular when they peaked with a comic called "I Hope You Like Text."Title: Re: PA & PVP versus old media comics Post by: Fordel on April 25, 2009, 11:46:48 AM "They have the internet on computers now!"
That's all that comes to mind when I read one of the 'old print' guys posts in that thread. Title: Re: PA & PVP versus old media comics Post by: ahoythematey on April 25, 2009, 12:06:54 PM As such their success absolutely baffles me. Or rather, the fact they keep getting more popular when they peaked with a comic called "I Hope You Like Text." Well...I still find the comics funny usually, and Jerry's editorializing is almost always worth a read, in my opinion. There are a lot of people with the same opinion, hence the continued success. Honestly, I find it amazing some people are quick to shit on the group of guys responsible for Child's Play, comic or no comic. Title: Re: PA & PVP versus old media comics Post by: Fordel on April 25, 2009, 12:21:50 PM People will shit on anything, it's practically a sport.
Title: Re: PA & PVP versus old media comics Post by: Merusk on April 25, 2009, 12:56:03 PM People will shit on anything, it's practically a sport. Doubly so on the internet. I don't hate on PA, but I do realize they're not geniuses, just good marketers who got there first. I'm impressed that they do good with their 'net fame instead of just being selfish pricks like many other web artists would be and have. Title: Re: PA & PVP versus old media comics Post by: schild on April 25, 2009, 01:08:42 PM Honestly, I find it amazing some people are quick to shit on the group of guys responsible for Child's Play, comic or no comic. Yes, because everyone who sets up a charity is untouchable. How much has Bill Gates/Microsoft given to charity now? More than PA will ever see? Yea. Thought so. Don't say dumb things. Title: Re: PA & PVP versus old media comics Post by: Ironwood on April 25, 2009, 01:17:28 PM Actually, I avoid saying things of hate about Gates these days specifically FOR that reason.
Not sure where you're going with that one. Business do it as tax breaks, of course, but individuals doing it and organizing stuff like that is amazing and should be treated so. You are, I suspect, merely jealous. Not that there's anything wrong with that. Title: Re: PA & PVP versus old media comics Post by: ahoythematey on April 25, 2009, 01:20:49 PM Actually, I practically applauded Bill and Melinda gates when I read about the amount of money they put into charities and the stuff they set up. If I remember correctly, it was a cover-story for Newsweek from a few years back?
Good job on making a stupid assumption and jumping to conclusions, though. It would've been more genuine to just leave it at, "I don't like PA and people that do like their comics baffle me." Title: Re: PA & PVP versus old media comics Post by: schild on April 25, 2009, 01:32:12 PM I find it hard to believe that either you have problems separating the charity from the person. Yes, it's absolutely awesome what they do with Child's Play, as is The Gates Foundation and such, but I don't quite understand why doing one thing negates the ability to rag on the other. Obviously I'm happy they're doing something more with their success than most others would do, but at the same time giving charity isn't some real life IDDQD cheat code against critical thought.
Quote Business do it as tax breaks, of course, but individuals doing it and organizing stuff like that is amazing and should be treated so. You are, I suspect, merely jealous. I never insinuated either of them did it for tax breaks, though I'd imagine they both get a hefty one. I'm jealous of lots of things, PA is not one of them. Title: Re: PA & PVP versus old media comics Post by: Ironwood on April 25, 2009, 01:35:11 PM Ok.
Title: Re: PA & PVP versus old media comics Post by: ahoythematey on April 25, 2009, 01:39:09 PM Doom reference is win.
Title: Re: PA & PVP versus old media comics Post by: MahrinSkel on April 25, 2009, 01:47:10 PM In essence, the web guys came into the scene and were dissed because they weren't in print and nobody was paying them except for banner-ad chump change. They showed they could build an audience, and they still got pissed on by the print guys because that audience wasn't as big as that of syndicated print comics, they didn't make as much money, and the print guys saw them as interlopers trying to horn in on their action (as the only way they could imagine the web guys making good money would be bootstrapping off their internet popularity to get a syndication deal, which would push one of them off the pages). All the while the web guys were telling the print guys their medium was doomed, that they were stuffy and uninspired pablum, and that there were other ways to do comics than the four-panel daily strip and the Sunday color double banner, other ways to monetize than syndication and book compilation deals. And the print guys blew them a raspberry and told them to be good little boys and let the grownups talk amongst themselves about how the youth today are getting stupider because of the internet.
So now the web guys are enjoying some righteous "I told you so, now fuck off." They owe the print guys *nothing*, and are pissed off that most of them are *still* acting high and mighty even as the earth opens up beneath their feet because newspapers are going away. --Dave Title: Re: PA & PVP versus old media comics Post by: Ironwood on April 25, 2009, 01:54:50 PM Yes.
And now no-one needs to read the thread. Title: Re: PA & PVP versus old media comics Post by: schild on April 25, 2009, 02:05:38 PM Quote the youth today are getting stupider because of the internet. To be fair, they're right. But it's not limited to the youth, unfortunately. Title: Re: PA & PVP versus old media comics Post by: Merusk on April 25, 2009, 02:12:43 PM u r 2 srs. Rly.
Web comix, srs bzns. Title: Re: PA & PVP versus old media comics Post by: Fabricated on April 25, 2009, 02:53:17 PM Just posting to say that PvP sucks.
Title: Re: PA & PVP versus old media comics Post by: Soln on April 25, 2009, 04:01:42 PM PvP is pretty meh. But sometimes so is PA. As an experiment, pick up any PA comic -- can you understand it directly? Very often PA panels are just like editorial cartoons, it's just that you have to be aware of the latest issue in gamer culture or the latest title. They don't often stand on their own without the walls of creative vocabulary from Tycho. But FWIW I do like Gabe's artwork and think a lot of his work is superior to the majority of web strips out there. Mike is definitely the talent there.
Title: Re: PA & PVP versus old media comics Post by: lamaros on April 25, 2009, 07:00:48 PM Salary workers discover the issues of running your own business. Recoil in horror.
News at 11. Title: Re: PA & PVP versus old media comics Post by: Triforcer on April 26, 2009, 01:56:03 AM PA's existence and everything bad PA has ever done (if anything) is justified by the "sing the song that ends the earth" comic. Seriously, I would forgive them anything after that.
Title: Re: PA & PVP versus old media comics Post by: schild on April 26, 2009, 01:57:41 AM PA's existence and everything bad PA has ever done (if anything) is justified by the "sing the song that ends the earth" comic. Seriously, I would forgive them anything after that. I Hope You Like Text.Like I said, their best comic. By far. Title: Re: PA & PVP versus old media comics Post by: apocrypha on April 26, 2009, 09:46:56 AM PA succeed for the same reason nearly all small businesses succeed - a smattering of talent combined with a fuckton of hard work.
Title: Re: PA & PVP versus old media comics Post by: Ironwood on April 27, 2009, 01:05:49 AM Today reminded me that I am actually a big fan of Mr Period.
Title: Re: PA & PVP versus old media comics Post by: Khaldun on April 27, 2009, 06:30:25 AM I think PA is on the whole pretty good. It's not quite Perry Bible Fellowship good or anything, but it's solid. PvP I read but it's much more a kind of eh, ok, fine.
Otherwise the whole discussion is the same as the one taking place between online writers and print media journalists. There are a few functions of print media that can't flourish on an Internet model, primarily high-quality reportage. There are other aspects of print media which online media do better and do for free to the end-users (classifieds, cultural criticism, opinion writing). The online readers need to develop skills to find the content they want, as opposed to paying editors to carefully select content as in print media, sure. I think it's absolutely right to say that editorial cartoonists who complain that a webcomics model isn't suitable for them are missing the point: the real problem is that 95% of them couldn't build their own audience under any circumstances because they're talentless hacks. Much as some music-industry people started shitting their pants when they realized they'd have to make money by selling individual songs rather than making one ok song and selling it packed into an album full of suck. When I look at a great editorial cartoonist like Paul Conrad, and realize that much of the time Conrad's work (especially his anti-Nixon cartoons) didn't require stupid little labels on figures to tell you what news story he was representing, I realize that there are almost no editorial cartoonists practicing now who have even a smidgen of visual imagination. They deserve to fail: it's got nothing to do with a "webcomics business model" or anything like that. Title: Re: PA & PVP versus old media comics Post by: Sky on April 27, 2009, 07:27:43 AM PBF is the only web comic I've enjoyed. I read most of the print comics, because they're in the paper every day. I'll read a shitty comic in the hopes of a minor chuckle or at least escape from the maimed rape victim on the opposing page. I'll not read shitty web comics, because I have to go look for it and it's not worth that 2 seconds of time.
Also, I don't my computer to the break room or sit out on my back porch with it. Nor do I take a computer to the shitter. Print is dead lol. Title: Re: PA & PVP versus old media comics Post by: Teleku on April 27, 2009, 08:40:48 AM I really like PA. They are the only consistent web comic I can come back to and be usually sure I'll at least get a smile from it. They are hit and miss, but even when they miss, it's rarely something bad. PvP, on the other hand, is just fucking annoying, and even when it hits (oh so rarely), most it gets is a smile.
Title: Re: PA & PVP versus old media comics Post by: Yegolev on April 27, 2009, 08:42:06 AM Nor do I take a computer to the shitter. Get a DS and you can drop your newspaper addiction. Title: Re: PA & PVP versus old media comics Post by: Nonentity on April 27, 2009, 10:00:41 AM I've always enjoyed PA, sometimes they get a hearty chuckle out of me.
I guess this is the wrong venue to bring up Achewood again, though... Title: Re: PA & PVP versus old media comics Post by: Kail on April 27, 2009, 10:18:12 AM When I look at a great editorial cartoonist like Paul Conrad, and realize that much of the time Conrad's work (especially his anti-Nixon cartoons) didn't require stupid little labels on figures to tell you what news story he was representing, I realize that there are almost no editorial cartoonists practicing now who have even a smidgen of visual imagination. IANAL and all that, but I was told that the labels all over everything are for legal reasons. I had an instructor once who was an editorial cartoonist, drew a picture of the Prime Minister pulling the wings off a fly, and got in shit for it from his editor ("he could sue for slander"). Write "Health Care Bill" or something on the fly, though, and it's fine (as it's more clearly satire or something). Title: Re: PA & PVP versus old media comics Post by: Lantyssa on April 27, 2009, 11:13:38 AM I guess this is the wrong venue to bring up Achewood again, though... Any time is the wrong time. :why_so_serious:Title: Re: PA & PVP versus old media comics Post by: Hindenburg on April 27, 2009, 11:24:10 AM IANAL and all that, but I was told that the labels all over everything are for legal reasons. I had an instructor once who was an editorial cartoonist, drew a picture of the Prime Minister pulling the wings off a fly, and got in shit for it from his editor ("he could sue for slander"). Write "Health Care Bill" or something on the fly, though, and it's fine (as it's more clearly satire or something). His editor was a paranoid pussy.Title: Re: PA & PVP versus old media comics Post by: NowhereMan on April 27, 2009, 11:52:57 AM There are a few really good web comics but like got said in that thread they generally are ones that sell on through word of mouth. If you're producing a quality product fairly consistently and are willing to put work into it people will pass your site on. Since we're mentioning comics we read Dresden Codak (http://www.dresdencodak.org) and Something Positive (http://www.somethingpositive.net) are both fairly regular visits for me even though the former is a pretty infrequent updater. Neither of those would have a chance in print the first because you can't do large, high-quality, niche products on an occasional basis and expect to ever get published really. The second simply because I don't think any editor would ever actually publish what amounts to a lot of geeky and semi-offensive humour.
Title: Re: PA & PVP versus old media comics Post by: Khaldun on April 27, 2009, 02:55:43 PM When I look at a great editorial cartoonist like Paul Conrad, and realize that much of the time Conrad's work (especially his anti-Nixon cartoons) didn't require stupid little labels on figures to tell you what news story he was representing, I realize that there are almost no editorial cartoonists practicing now who have even a smidgen of visual imagination. IANAL and all that, but I was told that the labels all over everything are for legal reasons. I had an instructor once who was an editorial cartoonist, drew a picture of the Prime Minister pulling the wings off a fly, and got in shit for it from his editor ("he could sue for slander"). Write "Health Care Bill" or something on the fly, though, and it's fine (as it's more clearly satire or something). That would work as an explanation if there weren't cartoonists who do otherwise. British bullshit libel laws not withstanding. Title: Re: PA & PVP versus old media comics Post by: AutomaticZen on April 27, 2009, 04:13:06 PM PvP is pretty meh. But sometimes so is PA. As an experiment, pick up any PA comic -- can you understand it directly? Very often PA panels are just like editorial cartoons, it's just that you have to be aware of the latest issue in gamer culture or the latest title. They don't often stand on their own without the walls of creative vocabulary from Tycho. But FWIW I do like Gabe's artwork and think a lot of his work is superior to the majority of web strips out there. Mike is definitely the talent there. I actually read for Tycho's rants more than the comic itself. I get annoyed when they put the comic up first and there's no rant.Title: Re: PA & PVP versus old media comics Post by: lamaros on April 27, 2009, 07:23:21 PM Pictures for sad children is the webcomic I enjoy most often. Not games related, though that's hardly a handicap.
(http://www.picturesforsadchildren.com/comics/00000260.png) Title: Re: PA & PVP versus old media comics Post by: ashrik on April 28, 2009, 06:20:14 PM Were the newspaper meanies really so cruel and dismissive to Scott Kurtz 5 years ago, or is he just the most bitter of dicks? I can see getting off to the schadenfreude as you watch all them rich people on the Titantic go under, but he seems nearly doubled over in vitriolic glee.
Title: Re: PA & PVP versus old media comics Post by: Quinton on April 28, 2009, 06:35:11 PM Were the newspaper meanies really so cruel and dismissive to Scott Kurtz 5 years ago, or is he just the most bitter of dicks? I can see getting off to the schadenfreude as you watch all them rich people on the Titantic go under, but he seems nearly doubled over in vitriolic glee. I think it's a bit of both. As I recall, there have been several instances of the newspaper comics folks being highly dismissive of the webcomics people, but also Scott Kurtz has always struck me as a bit of an asshole. Title: Re: PA & PVP versus old media comics Post by: Mazakiel on April 28, 2009, 07:01:29 PM From Wikipedia:
Quote At the 2004 San Diego Comicon, Kurtz announced that he would offer to newspapers the entire PvP series to reprint for free,[8] but only if the strips were reprinted without any changes made. Kurtz said he made this offer because of his dissatisfaction with the terms offered to cartoonists by syndicates. As of yet[when?] no major American newspaper has agreed to regularly pick up his strip, even though it is free. One newspaper, The Kansas City Star, briefly ran one PvP comic per week in the fall of 2004. From his blog post about it: Quote The exposure and prestige of PvP appearing in daily papers would more than pay for itself in a months time. In exchange, I can offer the papers a comics feature that's tried and tested, funny and best of all, free. They have nothing to lose or risk financially. They can see, in advance, a years worth of strips so they don't risk me flaking out on them. Most of all, I can provide them with yet another bargaining chip against the very syndicates. This is the perfect climate to take this step. In short, he was going to revolutionize how the comics pages worked, and ended up not being able to give it away for free. The response from people who did have contracts with the syndicates also weren't too supportive of his idea. He never really got over it. Title: Re: PA & PVP versus old media comics Post by: lamaros on April 28, 2009, 07:10:00 PM More people would care what he had/has to say if PvP wasn't, you know, entirely shit.
Title: Re: PA & PVP versus old media comics Post by: ashrik on April 28, 2009, 07:56:55 PM People should care what he has to say since the success and ability of his business is entirely predicated on not being shit. And he is successful, at least outside of the internet curmudgeoncrowd, isn't he?
Title: Re: PA & PVP versus old media comics Post by: Merusk on April 28, 2009, 08:14:01 PM He's also got an axe to grind because he's been denied entry into some comic artist's association. You see references to this in that thread. Yeah, its a combination of things, some if not all of which due to his abrasive personality, that gives him plenty of glee to flip them all the bird and say "Figure it out yourselves, assholes. You shunned me when you thought things were good, so fuck you now." To be honest, I'd get a kick out of it if I were in the same place, too.
Title: Re: PA & PVP versus old media comics Post by: Kail on April 28, 2009, 08:19:47 PM Were the newspaper meanies really so cruel and dismissive to Scott Kurtz 5 years ago, or is he just the most bitter of dicks? I can see getting off to the schadenfreude as you watch all them rich people on the Titantic go under, but he seems nearly doubled over in vitriolic glee. They were somewhat diskish about it, yes. (http://www.websnark.com/archives/nq041214-thumb.gif) (http://www.websnark.com/archives/2004/12/wiley_blinks.html) (Non-Sequitur, ran Dec 04, I think) Title: Re: PA & PVP versus old media comics Post by: schild on April 28, 2009, 08:20:55 PM Non Sequitur is funnier than PvP.
Title: Re: PA & PVP versus old media comics Post by: Khaldun on April 29, 2009, 04:10:21 AM Some of this is demographics, too, in a way that's highly unfavorable to newspapers and newspaper-syndicated comic strips. Their last solid audience is basically old people (55+). Whenever they make any move to try and have a comics page that has strips which were created after 1945 and retire the legacy strips, the old people howl in anguish and deluge them with letters. PvP is fine, it's nothing great, but it's a fuckton better than 95% of the strips on the average newspaper comic-strip page. On the average newspaper page, there's about five or six strips that are worth reading for fun as opposed to reading to mock a la the Comics Curmudgeon. But the newspapers can't make a move because of who their audience is, and because the syndicates play to that audience. So webcomics aren't just about the delivery medium, they're also about trying to do something with the idea of the comic strip that might be amusing or relevant to anybody whose point of cultural reference is post-1965. Sure, a great many suck, but if you skimmed the ten best, put them in newspapers and killed ten legacy strips or ripoff strips, you'd instantly have a pretty good comic-strip page.
Title: Re: PA & PVP versus old media comics Post by: RhyssaFireheart on April 29, 2009, 04:25:53 AM A lot of the legacy print comics seem unable to tell continuing story in any sort of logical fashion. I'm like Sky, I'll read all the comics in the newspaper because they're there, not necessarily because I like them. I'm looking to see if the story moves along (How stupid does the creator of say, Dick Tracy, think people are? In a four panel strip, 2 are usually repeats/recaps of the day before), or if something new happens (Geezus, how fucking retarded is Brenda Starr? Those story lines essentially repeat ad nauseum) or if there is a modicum of funny somewhere. Usually some of them will get at least a smile, but rarely anything more these days.
As for webcomics, I have a fair amount that I've bookmarked and I used to read religiously, but lately time's been tight and I haven't kept up with any of them. The only reason that I read the newspaper is because it's my downtime off the computer during breakfast or lunch. Sometimes, it's just easier to read print not on a computer screen. Title: Re: PA & PVP versus old media comics Post by: IainC on April 29, 2009, 04:35:41 AM Non Sequitur is funnier than PvP. A lot of things are funnier than PvP, it doesn't make Scott Kurtz wrong when he talks about the webcomic business model. Whether he's any good or not he's made it work in a way that very few others have. Title: Re: PA & PVP versus old media comics Post by: Merusk on April 29, 2009, 05:13:49 AM Y'know, some of this reminds me of how often I've heard DJs and Radio Personalities talk-down about Blogs and Podcasts. I didn't realize it until I read that bit Kail linked to.
Title: Re: PA & PVP versus old media comics Post by: Khaldun on April 29, 2009, 05:41:33 AM If you want a strip that is basically gentle, would be completely at home on your average newspaper page and is often amusing, Sheldon would fit the bill. That's as good a demonstration as any that the problem is at least somewhat a creative and editorial problem: if newspapers cared about comics pages as a site where standards of excellence applied, they'd be working out deals with people making great webcomics that are more or less suitable for newspaper publication. They don't care, so it's Beetle Bailey and other strips that regularly necro their own work with no shame. Without any of Scott Kurtz' abrasiveness, Dave Kellett basically spelled out the reality of comics a couple of years ago: http://www.sheldoncomics.com/archive/070701.html . He once wanted to be in newspapers; now he realizes both that the web is better for him aesthetically and economically AND that newspapers have made terrible decisions about comics (and much else).
Title: Re: PA & PVP versus old media comics Post by: HaemishM on April 29, 2009, 01:11:45 PM 5 years ago Kurtz offered an olive branch between syndicates and webcomics, a way for syndicates to look more relevant and for webcomics to get more "mainstream" exposure. And it would have cost the syndicates fuckall to do it. They laughed at him. Now as he continues to make revenue and the syndicates are sinking faster than a concrete balloon, he laughs at their idiocy. I'd fucking laugh my ass off too.
The syndicates took a great idea and forced artists into slave labor contracts, and the artists, when offered an opportunity to improve their lot, chose to be dismissive and dickish. Fuck them in their tiny earholes. Title: Re: PA & PVP versus old media comics Post by: Samprimary on May 03, 2009, 05:49:52 AM I think it's a bit of both. As I recall, there have been several instances of the newspaper comics folks being highly dismissive of the webcomics people, but also Scott Kurtz has always struck me as a bit of an asshole. Scott Kurtz actually legitimately has behavioral anger issues and they are the reason why he is fading out in terms of web relevance, one bitter self-inflicted wound (or self-inflicted vindictive immolation of his own forum) at a time. These days he's a terrible example of 'how to do the internet right' despite having been a guy who was groundfloorin' the webcomics scene for years. The Penny Arcade guys are on the other side of the coin. They do everything right, and they have extraordinarily wise policy in terms of handing their own image and success. One policy which has served them well is to keep their friends close, and Kurtz closer. Title: Re: PA & PVP versus old media comics Post by: Ironwood on May 03, 2009, 06:14:57 AM :awesome_for_real:
Title: Re: PA & PVP versus old media comics Post by: Polysorbate80 on May 03, 2009, 07:58:03 AM They do everything right Except for actually being funny. Title: Re: PA & PVP versus old media comics Post by: Samprimary on May 03, 2009, 08:05:16 AM See, I don't know what to tell you if you don't find Penny Arcade to be a well-made offering in terms of content, except to note that one's internal critique of their offering on a creative level does not impact my point about their creative success overall. One can say that pollock just looks like a bunch of technicolor vomit, but that don't change the fact that he got his shit to sell real, real well.
Title: Re: PA & PVP versus old media comics Post by: schild on May 03, 2009, 08:07:10 AM One can say that pollock just looks like a bunch of technicolor vomit, but that don't change the fact that he got his shit to sell real, real well. Pollock was too insane to sell his own shit properly. Bad comparison. Calling Shenanigans. Title: Re: PA & PVP versus old media comics Post by: Samprimary on May 03, 2009, 08:16:01 AM haha, fine.
Title: Re: PA & PVP versus old media comics Post by: Polysorbate80 on May 03, 2009, 09:39:11 AM "Never underestimate the power of human stupidity."
--Robert A. Heinlein I'm not directing that quote at you personally, Sam. I'm just playing "Captain Obvious" and restating that success is all too often independent of actual merit. Title: Re: PA & PVP versus old media comics Post by: Musashi on May 03, 2009, 11:04:11 AM The thing I find most ironic about this whole thing is that mainstream syndicated artists have been crying for YEARS about the bullshit that has been foisted on them from newspapers. You'd think they'd have been at least receptive to the idea of the artistic freedom the internet dudes enjoy. Not to mention, free money.
Title: Re: PA & PVP versus old media comics Post by: Quinton on May 03, 2009, 03:56:05 PM The thing I find most ironic about this whole thing is that mainstream syndicated artists have been crying for YEARS about the bullshit that has been foisted on them from newspapers. You'd think they'd have been at least receptive to the idea of the artistic freedom the internet dudes enjoy. Not to mention, free money. I think most of them don't want to deal with the details. With the syndicates, they sign their contracts, send in their strips, get published, get paid. All the successful webcomics I'm aware of are pretty much self-run small businesses, managing hosting, publication, advertising, merchandising, etc. There have been a number of webcomic hosting collectives, etc, but I'm pretty sure the successful people have mostly gone it alone (or graduated to going it alone once they started building a fanbase). Hell of a lot more control over your destiny... a lot more work compared to having somebody handle all the details for you. Title: Re: PA & PVP versus old media comics Post by: Merusk on May 04, 2009, 04:43:39 AM That's exactly what it is. Nobody wanted to put in the work, so they dismissed the entire industry as "You're just selling T-shirts and dolls. I'm selling art." That fallacy is pointed out in the original thread. What it really boils down to is people don't want to do all the work themselves. It's why a lot of people I know have stayed at stupidly oppressive jobs instead of starting up their own businesses when they're perfectly capable of doing so.
Title: Re: PA & PVP versus old media comics Post by: Ironwood on May 04, 2009, 05:07:12 AM And yet PA has been really succesful, in part, due to the recognition of that fact and, you know, hiring some other fucker to do it.
Which is actually how it SHOULD be. Title: Re: PA & PVP versus old media comics Post by: Merusk on May 04, 2009, 05:17:20 AM Well, yeah, as you grow you have to do that, and that's when you rely on other people being too paranoid/ lazy/ not having the knowledge to do it themselves. Very few people get to start out at that point, though.
Title: Re: PA & PVP versus old media comics Post by: Ironwood on May 04, 2009, 05:20:59 AM I was under the impression they got their 3rd man quite early in the development.
Title: Re: PA & PVP versus old media comics Post by: Hindenburg on May 04, 2009, 05:26:34 AM Officialy since
Title: Re: PA & PVP versus old media comics Post by: Ironwood on May 04, 2009, 05:32:43 AM That's not what I meant. I meant the business partner they acquired, the chap that allowed them to focus on what they were good at, thus turning it into a powerhouse.
Title: Re: PA & PVP versus old media comics Post by: Johny Cee on May 04, 2009, 06:07:33 AM That's not what I meant. I meant the business partner they acquired, the chap that allowed them to focus on what they were good at, thus turning it into a powerhouse. Giant Wired article on Penny Arcade (and the business side of it) from a couple years ago: http://www.wired.com/gaming/virtualworlds/magazine/15-09/mf_pennyarcade Per the article, before they hired away the consultant to run the business side of it the guys were about ready to quit. They had made one ridiculous blunder after another (including signing away publishing rights for their strips for a song), fucking up the adversting rates, etc. Title: Re: PA & PVP versus old media comics Post by: Ironwood on May 04, 2009, 06:15:37 AM That was the very article I was thinking of.
Thanks. Title: Re: PA & PVP versus old media comics Post by: Sky on May 04, 2009, 06:22:47 AM Should have a new ad campaign:
Scott Kurtz is going to make you his bitch. Title: Re: PA & PVP versus old media comics Post by: IainC on May 11, 2009, 03:10:05 PM Should have a new ad campaign: Scott Kurtz is going to make you his bitch. He's sort of got that vibe going already (http://pvpstuff.com/killingnewspapersmtee.html). Title: Re: PA & PVP versus old media comics Post by: Litigator on May 13, 2009, 10:00:09 AM Of course the major problem for newspaper cartoonists trying to find a new market is that most of them are shit. The newspapers haven't been pushing for quality in their cartoons for decades and syndication has meant that the cartoonists themselves have no need to try and produce anything of quality. I don't think that's necessarily the case. There are a lot of submissions for newspaper comics, and it's a very competitive gig to get. The problem is that the audience is fairly shitty, and they demand a comic that they can understand and that is inoffensive. Continuity is also prized. Readers like the same strips, year after year. If the cartoonist dies, they get someone else to pick it up, or they reprint old strips. A lot of the tired stuff in the papers has been around so long that the writers have exhausted the humor in the premise and are essentially just phoning it in. It's also very difficult to make a product that is palatable to the newspaper-comics readership, which includes children and the elderly, and still make it laugh-out-loud funny. PA benefits from being frequently topical, and for commenting on a subject that garners a big audience. "The Boondocks" in the newspaper tries to do something similar, as does "Doonesbury," as did "Bloom County." PA is also unprintable in a newspaper, and probably incomprehensible to the bulk of a newspaper audience. "Boondocks" in the paper is a lot softer than "Penny Arcade," and it has had some serious problems with content and offended readers. PA's readers really dig what they do and buy their merch, and game companies pay them to produce custom comics, and that's great. It's not evident at all that their model could be reproduced by more general cartoons. I think as long as there are print newspapers, there will be comics pages. Comics are popular and cheaper than other kinds of content. But as circulations shrink and two-paper towns become one-paper towns, royalties will drop. I also think that, as long as there are print editorial pages, there will be a need for editorial page art, which means that there is some kind of a gig for editorial cartoonists. However, as budgets tighten, lot of local papers may buy cartoons about national news from a syndicate rather than hiring their own cartoonist. This is also a problem for editorial-page writers, who are really getting their lunch eaten by blogs. Comic books may be a growing area, and there may be a growing market for comic books outside the superhero niche. A lot of popular newspaper cartoonists would have worked better as graphic novelists than internet cartoonists; particularly stuff like Garfield and Calvin. Cartoonists who don't do narrative stuff will have to adapt, though. I'm not sure the Far Side could be the hit today that it was in the 90's. Title: Re: PA & PVP versus old media comics Post by: Kail on May 13, 2009, 07:40:58 PM The problem is that the audience is fairly shitty, and they demand a comic that they can understand and that is inoffensive. Continuity is also prized. Readers like the same strips, year after year. If the cartoonist dies, they get someone else to pick it up, or they reprint old strips. Newspaper comics aren't a new medium, though. The audience they have is made up of the people who are attracted to the comics they publish. If they wanted a new audience, they could publish different comics. There's certainly an audience out there for edgier material, but they aren't willing to publish that, so the readers have to go elsewhere. Now enough of them are going elsewhere that it's cutting in to the bottom line. Now nobody really cares about newspaper comics, save a dwindling core of aging readers. Now newspaper comics are shrinking and cutting staff and people are looking for the life boats, while Gabe and Tycho can pull in a million bucks in donations just by asking, and host one of the biggest gaming conventions on the planet. I mean, yes, you could blame the octogenarians sitting on the porch enjoying Marmaduke, THOSE SCHEMING BASTARDS THIS IS ALL THEIR FAULT, but there's a reason the funnies have such a narrow audience, and it's not because only boring, stupid people want to read comics. Title: Re: PA & PVP versus old media comics Post by: MahrinSkel on May 13, 2009, 08:52:45 PM I'm actually old enough to remember when the Sunday Funnies were nearly the high point of my weekend.
Picture this: It's Sunday morning, 3 of the 4 channels your TV can get are showing preachers, which you have no interest in (you'll get trapped in a church soon enough today). The fourth is a couple of old farts arguing about something political, you don't understand what because they keep going off on tangents about crap that happened before you were born (and since you're 5, that's almost everything). Nobody else who is awake has any interest in playing board or card games (video games is just two random words strung together as far as anyone knows). You can't go out to play because you're wearing your nice clothes for that trip to church you're dreading. But there's the comics pages! 12 huge pages of bright colors and jokes you mostly understand, with some worthless stuff mixed in (why the hell is Mary Worth such a meddling witch, and why does anybody want to read about it?). Beetle Bailey, Hagar the Horrible, Marmaduke, the list goes on. It's the most fun you'll have all day, the only thing better was the cartoons on TV the day before. Older people, who grew up completely in a world where entertainment choices were about finding the best option out of a very limited menu, have a lot of emotional weighting tied up in those comics. Newspapers aren't dying for any complicated reason. It's really simple: In a world where information is no longer hard to get, you don't need a professional staff to assemble it for you and print it on a bunch of paper. People bought newspapers for a lot of different reasons (TV listings, editorial pages, politics, stock tables, sports scores, classified ads), but they all centered on the idea that information had to be packaged, embedded in physical media, and sold. Now, we're awash in information, and our problem isn't access, it's searching and sifting it. If we need context, we can go find it ourselves. If we need opinions, they're like assholes. Newspapers are dying because they suck. They always sucked, they just sucked less than the alternatives. Now we have the internet, which sucks in totally different ways, none of which newspapers can offer a solution to. --Dave Title: Re: PA & PVP versus old media comics Post by: Litigator on May 13, 2009, 09:37:01 PM The problem is that the audience is fairly shitty, and they demand a comic that they can understand and that is inoffensive. Continuity is also prized. Readers like the same strips, year after year. If the cartoonist dies, they get someone else to pick it up, or they reprint old strips. Newspaper comics aren't a new medium, though. The audience they have is made up of the people who are attracted to the comics they publish. If they wanted a new audience, they could publish different comics. There's certainly an audience out there for edgier material, but they aren't willing to publish that, so the readers have to go elsewhere. Now enough of them are going elsewhere that it's cutting in to the bottom line. Now nobody really cares about newspaper comics, save a dwindling core of aging readers. Now newspaper comics are shrinking and cutting staff and people are looking for the life boats, while Gabe and Tycho can pull in a million bucks in donations just by asking, and host one of the biggest gaming conventions on the planet. I mean, yes, you could blame the octogenarians sitting on the porch enjoying Marmaduke, THOSE SCHEMING BASTARDS THIS IS ALL THEIR FAULT, but there's a reason the funnies have such a narrow audience, and it's not because only boring, stupid people want to read comics. The audience for the comics in the newspaper is the same audience as the audience for the newspaper. Just about anything laugh-out-loud funny would probably offend somebody, and newspaper editors would rather publish an unfunny comic like "Family Circus" that doesn't cause them any trouble than a funny comic like "Boondocks" that results in a steady stream of angry letters and canceled subscriptions. Syndicated cartoons are products developed to be mildly interesting and inoffensive to a broad audience, while web comics have to generate enthusiasm among a smaller audience. So when the syndicated cartoonists tell the web cartoonists that the model doesn't work, they're right that it won't work for what most of them do. The Cagle aggregation site aside, the editorial cartoonists are also in bad shape; there are no new spaces opening up for them. Most of them are pretty banal in the first place, and you see the contempt for what they do in the thread. The funny 1 panel political gags are few and far between; I tried that gig in college, and the problem is that if you don't do something obvious, nobody will have a damn clue what you mean, and there is no joke in the political humor sphere that is both funny and inoffensive. Even worse for them, if you actually look at the Cagle site, you can see how many cartoonists on any given day make the same joke about whatever the news event is. And you can see how, in a cost cutting environment, employing an individual to draw the exact same obvious joke as 20 other cartoonists doesn't make sense when you can pull your ed page art off a syndicate. There is also no way to sell most of these guys on the web. A major reason the editorial cartoon is there is to keep the editorial page from being a solid page of text. Outside of the print editorial page context, it's not clear the form has a future. Title: Re: PA & PVP versus old media comics Post by: Litigator on May 13, 2009, 09:57:58 PM Quote Newspapers aren't dying for any complicated reason. It's really simple: In a world where information is no longer hard to get, you don't need a professional staff to assemble it for you and print it on a bunch of paper. People bought newspapers for a lot of different reasons (TV listings, editorial pages, politics, stock tables, sports scores, classified ads), but they all centered on the idea that information had to be packaged, embedded in physical media, and sold. Now, we're awash in information, and our problem isn't access, it's searching and sifting it. If we need context, we can go find it ourselves. If we need opinions, they're like assholes. Newspapers are dying because they suck. They always sucked, they just sucked less than the alternatives. Now we have the internet, which sucks in totally different ways, none of which newspapers can offer a solution to. Bullshit. Newspapers are not in trouble because their coverage has been usurped by blogs. Blogs are fucking horrible, and they mostly aggregate their coverage by linking to reporting done by professional journalists, and then commenting on it. Asking why you would read a newspaper when there are blogs is like asking why you would go to a bookstore when there is fanfiction. Newspapers are in trouble because their classified ads were enormous revenue generators, and that function has been usurped by eBay and Craigslist. When you only need to go to one website to find an apartment to sublet, a whore to kill in it, and a truck to haul away the body with, then the classified ads are raw-dog fucked. On top of that, conventional advertisers are getting pinched by the economy and are cutting back on their ad buys. Subscribtions have been dropping, but it's not subscriptions that are putting major papers and companies in the toilet. It's ad revenue. Title: Re: PA & PVP versus old media comics Post by: Samwise on May 13, 2009, 10:52:36 PM The fact that you conflate "the internet" with "blogs" suggests to me that you don't get it.
I don't understand why anyone ever read newspapers in the first place, tbh. I sat down and tried to read the phone book one time, barely made it a few pages. The printed word is a yawn and a half. Title: Re: PA & PVP versus old media comics Post by: schild on May 13, 2009, 11:06:14 PM Quote Bullshit. Newspapers are not in trouble because their coverage has been usurped by blogs. He didn't say that. I stopped reading there. Also, you really butchered that bbcode. Title: Re: PA & PVP versus old media comics Post by: dusematic on May 13, 2009, 11:54:56 PM Penny Arcade is pretty funny. Might not be everyone's cup of tea, and that's fine. But some of you guys are acting like Penny Arcade is mainstream beefcake, and that's ridiculous. If they put out just a single comic every week, I'd expect more from them. But point me to someone that has consistently funnier comics and I'll probably follow your link and then immediately question your sense of humor forever.
They're just regular good ol' nerds who made it. Tycho has an interesting voice. The Thesauraus thing is ridiculous. He's writing as a character. It's funny. Get over yourselves assholes. Title: Re: PA & PVP versus old media comics Post by: UnSub on May 14, 2009, 12:05:12 AM Newspapers aren't dying for any complicated reason. It's really simple: In a world where information is no longer hard to get, you don't need a professional staff to assemble it for you and print it on a bunch of paper. People bought newspapers for a lot of different reasons (TV listings, editorial pages, politics, stock tables, sports scores, classified ads), but they all centered on the idea that information had to be packaged, embedded in physical media, and sold. Now, we're awash in information, and our problem isn't access, it's searching and sifting it. If we need context, we can go find it ourselves. If we need opinions, they're like assholes. Newspapers are dying because they suck. They always sucked, they just sucked less than the alternatives. Now we have the internet, which sucks in totally different ways, none of which newspapers can offer a solution to. This is true, as is Litigator's comment that revenue from classifieds is way, way down for newspapers. Print media is getting it in the neck from several different directions. Of course, how well the internet aggregates information will be tested when online news sources start moving heavily towards a subscription model. Murdoch wants to head this way and he might just have enough market power to enforce a change away from free news for all (just look at the banner ads, plz). Title: Re: PA & PVP versus old media comics Post by: MahrinSkel on May 14, 2009, 12:26:26 AM The real question is not whether "respectable journalism" will go to closed subscriptions (which I'm pretty sure is doomed, putting something behind a paywall is a good way of ensuring none of your potential customers ever hear of it, even the porn business is having a harder time making that pay lately), but whether there's still a role for professional journalists, people who get paid to track down the stuff that can't be found online, root around in the trash and find the dirty little secrets. Lord knows the current media does a crap job of that, they pay people to act as stenographers at dog and pony shows (also called "press conferences"), and re-write press releases to be a little less blatantly slanted. I'm pretty sure the unpaid amateurs can do *that* just as well.
My father was an old-school journalist, and a pretty good one. He could go on a 3 hour rant about how worthless "journalism" had become. He always said he preferred his ad copyrighting gigs after the 70's, at least he was getting paid for coming up with *original* fiction, instead of just redlining someone else's. --Dave Title: Re: PA & PVP versus old media comics Post by: Litigator on May 14, 2009, 07:34:15 AM The fact that you conflate "the internet" with "blogs" suggests to me that you don't get it. I don't understand why anyone ever read newspapers in the first place, tbh. I sat down and tried to read the phone book one time, barely made it a few pages. The printed word is a yawn and a half. I don't conflate "the internet" with blogs. But blogs are the main new innovation that is pulling readers away from newspapers, and bloggers are presumably going to replace professional journalists if the institution of the newspaper goes belly-up. Daily newspaper readers are not canceling their subscriptions because their news time is filled with porn and pictures of cats and video clips of skateboarders falling down. People think they can replace their papers with HuffPo and InstaPundit. To the extent that there were people who only got the paper for comics, yes, they can go online. And to the extent that there were people who only got the paper for stocks or sports, yes, the Internet is provides that information much faster. But nobody else is doing that kind of reporting or generating that kind of coverage, especially at the local level. Blogs don't do a good job of generating news; they aggregate news from other sources published online, and they comment on it. Nobody is generating reliable news coverage except the professional news outlets. And the printed word is a faster and more efficient way of conveying information. You can get much more news in 30 minutes of newspaper reading than in two hours of looking at cable news. Title: Re: PA & PVP versus old media comics Post by: Raph on May 14, 2009, 07:47:04 AM I'm actually old enough to remember when the Sunday Funnies were nearly the high point of my weekend. Picture this: It's Sunday morning, 3 of the 4 channels your TV can get are showing preachers, which you have no interest in (you'll get trapped in a church soon enough today). The fourth is a couple of old farts arguing about something political, you don't understand what because they keep going off on tangents about crap that happened before you were born (and since you're 5, that's almost everything). Nobody else who is awake has any interest in playing board or card games (video games is just two random words strung together as far as anyone knows). You can't go out to play because you're wearing your nice clothes for that trip to church you're dreading. But there's the comics pages! 12 huge pages of bright colors and jokes you mostly understand, with some worthless stuff mixed in (why the hell is Mary Worth such a meddling witch, and why does anybody want to read about it?). Beetle Bailey, Hagar the Horrible, Marmaduke, the list goes on. It's the most fun you'll have all day, the only thing better was the cartoons on TV the day before. Heck with the argumentative part everyone else is quoting, I wanted to QFT this part. Nicely written, Dave! Title: Re: PA & PVP versus old media comics Post by: Samwise on May 14, 2009, 08:30:21 AM I don't conflate "the internet" with blogs. But blogs are the main new innovation that is pulling readers away from newspapers, and bloggers are presumably going to replace professional journalists if the institution of the newspaper goes belly-up. In your last post that's precisely what you said wouldn't happen. If you're going to construct a stupid strawman and knock it down, don't try to rebuild it after the fact to make it look like a more credible opponent. Title: Re: PA & PVP versus old media comics Post by: Jeff Kelly on May 14, 2009, 08:37:19 AM I don't conflate "the internet" with blogs. But blogs are the main new innovation that is pulling readers away from newspapers, and bloggers are presumably going to replace professional journalists if the institution of the newspaper goes belly-up. (..) People think they can replace their papers with HuffPo and InstaPundit. Without bloggers we would know only about half as much about the Bush Administration's dealings as we actually do today. Professional journalists my ass. Why are people flocking to blogs in droves? Because they offer something the 'professional' journalists don't any more. Investigative journalism. Where were all of these 'professional' journalists when they lied about WMDs? Where were those professional journalists when they ordered the torture of people? Where were those 'professional' journalists when they redefined habeas corpus and the geneva convention to strip their precious guantanamo inmates of basic human rights? People think they can replace their papers with blogs because most papers today are nothing more than echo chambers edited by lapdogs of the system that would't even publish slight criticism of the administration because it was deemed 'unpatriotic' Papers became irrelevant once people realized just how much information was being withheld from them just so that some smart washington correspondend was still invited to the luxurious free lunches or because the publishers were afraid about their bottom line. Quote Nobody is generating reliable news coverage except the professional news outlets. Au contraire. People read blogs because they feel that they are the only once providing reliable news coverage. Title: Re: PA & PVP versus old media comics Post by: Merusk on May 14, 2009, 09:42:04 AM I'm actually old enough to remember when the Sunday Funnies were nearly the high point of my weekend. Picture this: It's Sunday morning, 3 of the 4 channels your TV can get are showing preachers, which you have no interest in (you'll get trapped in a church soon enough today). The fourth is a couple of old farts arguing about something political, you don't understand what because they keep going off on tangents about crap that happened before you were born (and since you're 5, that's almost everything). Nobody else who is awake has any interest in playing board or card games (video games is just two random words strung together as far as anyone knows). You can't go out to play because you're wearing your nice clothes for that trip to church you're dreading. But there's the comics pages! 12 huge pages of bright colors and jokes you mostly understand, with some worthless stuff mixed in (why the hell is Mary Worth such a meddling witch, and why does anybody want to read about it?). Beetle Bailey, Hagar the Horrible, Marmaduke, the list goes on. It's the most fun you'll have all day, the only thing better was the cartoons on TV the day before. Heck with the argumentative part everyone else is quoting, I wanted to QFT this part. Nicely written, Dave! Yeah, I remember those days, too. It's probably the only reason I'm all weepy that our comics section is now down to 4 pages with 15 strips crammed onto them and a full back page ad: Nostalgia. Title: Re: PA & PVP versus old media comics Post by: Sir T on May 14, 2009, 09:47:22 AM Talked to a girl at work the other day and she is actually taking her blog to a newspaper to apply for a job, which is interesting.
I advised her btw to take out the swear words. She said she was going to hand in a sanitised version.. and I told her to sanitise the online version as well, which seemed never to have occurred to her. I think she will fit right in in a newspaper. :roll: Title: Re: PA & PVP versus old media comics Post by: Samwise on May 14, 2009, 09:56:07 AM I'm actually old enough to remember when the Sunday Funnies were nearly the high point of my weekend. Picture this: It's Sunday morning, 3 of the 4 channels your TV can get are showing preachers, which you have no interest in (you'll get trapped in a church soon enough today). The fourth is a couple of old farts arguing about something political, you don't understand what because they keep going off on tangents about crap that happened before you were born (and since you're 5, that's almost everything). Nobody else who is awake has any interest in playing board or card games (video games is just two random words strung together as far as anyone knows). You can't go out to play because you're wearing your nice clothes for that trip to church you're dreading. But there's the comics pages! 12 huge pages of bright colors and jokes you mostly understand, with some worthless stuff mixed in (why the hell is Mary Worth such a meddling witch, and why does anybody want to read about it?). Beetle Bailey, Hagar the Horrible, Marmaduke, the list goes on. It's the most fun you'll have all day, the only thing better was the cartoons on TV the day before. Heck with the argumentative part everyone else is quoting, I wanted to QFT this part. Nicely written, Dave! Yeah, I remember those days, too. It's probably the only reason I'm all weepy that our comics section is now down to 4 pages with 15 strips crammed onto them and a full back page ad: Nostalgia. I would feel more weepy if all the good comics artists I remember from my youth hadn't already retired, and if all the good contemporary ones weren't already online. Luckily they good old guys all have nicely bound "complete works of" collections that I will buy someday once I have enough shelf space for them all. Title: Re: PA & PVP versus old media comics Post by: Venkman on May 23, 2009, 04:11:50 AM Blogs don't do a good job of generating news; they aggregate news from other sources published online, and they comment on it. ... Nobody is generating reliable news coverage except the professional news outlets. Wut? The web and the blogs are all aggregating (and spinning) the same information the newspapers are aggregating and spinning from the one or three sources worldwide with actual reporters in the field. Newspapers are dying because the business model is done, but the business model is done because of what MahrinSkel said. It has nothing to do with the actual news nor the reporting and all about how it is consumed. People want it, they can go get it any time they want, rather than wait for publishers to see if news will survive their own internal filters. We're in transition right now. The bohemian attitude of the early web developers wanting everything to be free has resulted in a problem for people trying to transpose what they do from one business model to another. Title: Re: PA & PVP versus old media comics Post by: Hoax on May 23, 2009, 09:59:31 AM Wake me up when we're no longer fighting about whether "citizen journalism" or whatever the current buzzword is will work and instead fighting about what makes it work well. Because the papers are done for, I wish the music industry had gone first but oh well.
Title: Re: PA & PVP versus old media comics Post by: Soln on May 23, 2009, 10:29:59 AM all BS aside, I thought the music industry was done. No? I thought musicians made more money off concerts and their own swag. That's what PA learned -- build your own community/fans that only you own, and then sell them stuff only you make.
re. Sunday comix -- I had the same experience growing up. No cable, only one major paper around and a sunday color supplement. Problem was there was only ever 1 or 2 comics I enjoyed reading. The rest was shit like KAthy, or the Christian family circus. I like today's online anarchy of choice. Title: Re: PA & PVP versus old media comics Post by: IainC on November 05, 2009, 02:07:41 AM Necroing this.
Scott Kurtz is having another public pissing match, this time with Wizard on the PvP site. Quote From: Larry Ernst (learnst@wizardent.com) to: Scott Kurtz Dear Kurt, I hope things are well and business is good. We wrapped up Big Apple Comic Con a couple of weeks ago and are now focused on our 2010 shows. Our next show is in Toronto in March and then in Anaheim. The Anaheim dates are April 16th-18th. I have attached the form for reserving space in Anaheim and hope you can join us. As you will see, there are no drayage fees. The celebrity list will grow substantially in the coming weeks but we have confirmed the attendance of Eliza Dushku from Dollhouse. Please don’t hesitate to contact me if you have any questions. All the best, Larry Larry Ernst Sales Manager Wizard Entertainment Dear Larry, First of all my name is not Kurt. It’s Scott. Scott Kurtz. It’s written right there in the email you just pretended to send me. Not that my name’s important or that you are actually aware of who you’re addressing. I’m a pioneer in my field and a “tastemaker” with a large podium, why would it be important to get my name right? Let’s not dawdle on such mundane details. Your conventions are total horseshit, so it’s wise to stop branding them with the name Wizard. But no amount of polishing is going to make me want to attended any of the 5 turds your company is going to crap out in 2010, especially when you schedule them against other shows in some bullshit dick measuring contests that serves no other purpose but to fracture an already dying industry that I have nostalgic ties to. Remember Mike Wieringo? Remember how you guys only cared about him when he was the “hot artist” for a window of time and then you quickly forgot his name despite the fact that he was producing some of the best work of his career on Fantastic Four with Mark Waid? And then remember how after he died you had the balls to name one of your panel rooms the Mike Wieringo room? I will eternally hate everyone associated with your company for that. For eternity. For Jack Kirby’s version of Eternity where the concept is embodied as a giant man made up of the universe. That’s me, hating you for the Mike Wieringo thing. Forever. Maybe if you cared enough to actually get my name right, or maybe if you cared about creators like the late, great Mike Wieringo beyond what they can do for you THIS FIVE MINUTES, the entire industry wouldn’t all be anticipating your inevitable bankruptcy. Give Dushku my best. She’s pretty hot and Dollhouse is alright. Otherwise, shove everything else up your ass. Best. Scott (Kurt) Kurtz Cartoonist www.pvponline.com p.s. please take of me off the comp list for your retarded super-hero boobs magazine. Title: Re: PA & PVP versus old media comics Post by: Ironwood on November 05, 2009, 02:12:28 AM Nice.
Title: Re: PA & PVP versus old media comics Post by: HaemishM on November 05, 2009, 08:56:10 AM To Scott's credit, Wizard has always been complete shit, a veritable cumbucket of a magazine that was in large part responsible for the absolute colon cleanse the comics industry took in the mid-90's. Their constant hyping of the latest greatest foil-covered hyper-editions by dynamic but overrated artists like Rob Liefeld and Todd McFarlane, their inflated speculator-focused pricing on back issues just old enough to be considered back issues and their rock-star leghumping of speculator markets like the action figure market all served to expand and eventually pop the comics bubble in that decade, a rupture the entire industry has not recovered from to this day.
Fuck Wizard in their tiny little earholes. Title: Re: PA & PVP versus old media comics Post by: Khaldun on November 05, 2009, 11:28:30 AM Yeah, I have no objection to anybody, including Kurtz, unleashing rhetorical buckets of shit all over Wizard. Kurtz picks some dumb fights now and again, and his ego is very easily offended, but go go gadget on this one.
Title: Re: PA & PVP versus old media comics Post by: Murgos on November 05, 2009, 12:26:15 PM Why is this public?
Title: Re: PA & PVP versus old media comics Post by: Soln on November 05, 2009, 12:35:22 PM because it's a PSA, and quite funny
Title: Re: PA & PVP versus old media comics Post by: Trippy on November 05, 2009, 12:36:21 PM Why is this public? Cause Scott's ego is large enough to have its own gravitational field?Title: Re: PA & PVP versus old media comics Post by: LK on November 05, 2009, 04:01:39 PM Good shit.
Title: Re: PA & PVP versus old media comics Post by: Triforcer on November 05, 2009, 04:05:23 PM Nerd rages about a company extending an invite to him because said company excluded Tom Bombabil/let Warren kill Tara/nerfed warlocks? Yawn.
Title: Re: PA & PVP versus old media comics Post by: Ratman_tf on November 05, 2009, 04:55:39 PM Fuck, Jim Davis established Garfield on this very premise. He was NEVER an artist, he was a Marketer who read something about the popularity of cats and said "Hey, what if I make a comic about a cat who hates mondays. People would eat that shit up and I could make a mint on the merchandising." He's unabashedly admitted this, and proven himself right. This is true. And it's doubly awesome because every now and again, Jim Davis will do something totally surreal with Garfield, like Garfield's 9 Lives and the creepy halloween strips. http://www.boingboing.net/2006/08/05/death-of-garfield.html It's great because he just kind of stumbles into aweseome, and doesn't try to turn Garfield into something it's not. Title: Re: PA & PVP versus old media comics Post by: Teleku on November 05, 2009, 05:05:08 PM Ah, I'd forgotten about the 9 lives cartoon/comic. I loved the cartoon as a kid, but it was actually surprisingly dark for a Garfield cartoon. The one with Siamese cat made my mother cry every time she saw it...
Title: Re: PA & PVP versus old media comics Post by: Merusk on November 05, 2009, 05:20:16 PM Why is this public? Pageviews. Scott knows nothing if not self-promotion and how to generate page hits. Title: Re: PA & PVP versus old media comics Post by: NowhereMan on November 06, 2009, 01:18:45 AM Well he is an internet tastemaker apparently. Whole thing reminds me of this (http://www.theonion.com/content/news_briefs/rude_guy_unfortunately_says)
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