f13.net

Link (http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=905941&page=1#4)

And on this day the EVE DEVS spoke and they sayeth, "Thou shall not ride bikes in 0.0."

My RP trumps your shitty ideas.  Of course they will do it anyway.

True CVA diplo to the end, even RPs on the F13 forums!

Have fun scanning every single system you come to for enemies when you're roaming.  It's going to make doing ANYTHING in 0.0 besides moving large fleets a total pain in the ass and crapshoot.  Want to move an industrial with tons of shit?  Why even bother scouting, if the next gate has 15 cloaked force recons waiting for you.  You won't see them coming anyway.

Why you think I got a carrier... WOOOOT

Ill just roll deep son. I imagine the map will still provide info for me to hunt with.... MUAHAHA

Hunt who?  0.0 is under-populated as it is.  How many people are going to move to level 4 missions in empire when the risk to isk ratio in 0.0 gets even worse?

It seems like they don't have a good feel for ignoring the loud whiner types.  I'd be willing to bet that 98% of the EVE population likes local just the way it is.  Why even waste effort on something that's been this way for eons?

I can understand why they'd want to get rid of local and replace it with some other form of live system scanning, but just to kill it seems retarded.

Personally I'd put in a new scanner window that takes some amount of time to detect first the number of other ships, then their approximate size, and eventually the pilot name, according to some scheme based on skills/modules/ship-stats/random-luck of you and the other pilots in system.

I've seen some interesting ideas regarding stuff related to who holds Sov in the system/const, POS modules that scan system, broadcasts of how many gate activations were in the last 5 minutes in local and stuff like that.

But knowing CCP if they change anything they'll just suddenly completely remove it without notice and have it be bugged on top of it.  :uhrr:

Title is wrong they aren't killing it just potentially changing how it works. As far as testing it I think they have a problem realising that testing things like this on SISI will never garner real results as SISI removes all the things that make TQ work.

Right, so the only way to know if a red is in local is if he waves to you.  Brilliant.

But seriously, scanners won't work if the enemy is flying ships that can warp cloaked.  You'd need to catch them at the gate or you're fucked.

Just crazy to remove without some mitigation.

Well seeing reds isn't the only thing under scrutiny here, as Pezzle said Eve is a social game but this won't be changed that you can still converse in local, given I understand seeing mates in local is also gonna be delayed. Check out this link for a better understanding of how it may work, it was Zulu's original link so it must be something they are looking at ..... http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=860802

I like the idea to some extent, I think it should be stippled say in 0.0 you have longer delay than in 1.0 where entering local you show up immediately. Ha and the new title works for me  :grin:

But who would be dumb enough to talk in local unless they are docked or at a POS or something?  A roaming gang pops into system and sees you chatting, they instantly know the system has active people in it and start hunting you down.

Yeh another good reason not to use local. I personally don't use it much so I don't see a problem there for me. What I mean is that the social aspect of local isn't being removed from hisec and people who are safe to use it you shouldn't use it anyway if you feel it will compromise your position.

Couple of points mentioned on other forums

• In empire, how will you know if there are WTs in system?  Going to market hubs will be completely unsafe in the face of war decs now
• I would never feel safe undocking in a 0.0 station without a covops covering it 24/7.  What's to stop an enemy cloaking 100 ships there and biding their time?
• Cloaked titans no gates are awful

Yeh very good points there these would be things I would be concerned with. The first one would be fixed by having a stipple delay as I mentioned hi sec would show up everybody immediately as usual but the lower you go the larger delay. Maybe having sov would help you see people quicker and the higher it is the better the bonus, this would also mean there is more reason to hold sov in certain systems than there already is? Titans would show up in local immediately with sig radius idea.

That thread is pretty interesting.  Suggestions that fanfest will see announcements on T3 ships, new graphics, 0.0 expansion, playable ambulation...

Also interesting that he thinks ECM is fine as it is.  No nerf for my falcon yet :D

I honestly don't think that they'll just remove local and that's that.  The important thing is that their solution doesn't require constant scanner spamming.  Otherwise dead-end constellations that you can sit a scout on the entrance of will be like golddust.

I don't think ECM is overpowered either but ECCM is slightly underpowered. oh and yeh T3 is sexy

(http://z.hubpages.com/u/260097_f520.jpg)

Sure, it's golddust until I move an alt there and log out at a safe spot for a few days and wait to catch you unawares.

I think CCP's decided to do this PR campaign where they leak or let slip various nerfs via the forums, and announce the accompanying buffs only at the fanfest. 

"We're gonna nerf local..."  on the forums.
"...but we're adding a total surveillance and integrated communications system with pop-up notifications at all fleet/corp/alliance levels" at the fanfest.

You know how quick I can scan out most systems? I just wont bother with areas that don't have a few belts in em. There, Chins, hide in those :) Certain locations will always be hotspots due to truesec and belt numbers.

Nerf local?  Seriously?  We're balancing based on memes/semi-trolls now?

If they don't buff up the scanner and add some automation I foresee epic slaughter, whining like you've never seen and a quick about face.  As someone who roams a hell of a lot more than he rats I'll enjoy it while it lasts.

Can't even begin to imagine how it'll change proper gang/alliance warfare.  Will be very interesting.

True, there are places that will always have people in them (station systems, high truesec, etc), but it will also decentralize the ratting/mining a lot as people attempt to do it more safely, and will also drive lots of people back to L4s in empire, making 0.0 even more sparse than it is already.

Solution is to move local functionality to constellation chat. Really, it's so simple that even Zulupark will eventually get the idea.
Also, local needs to die and I say this as operator of 9 hulk accounts.

That thread show how removed from reality and idiotic CCP are. They're not looking into cloaking issue for the love of a fucking god alimighty - if there is one overpowered module, it's a motherfucking cloak[and ctrl+q]) , they think tempest is a fine ship (they should run a single db query and see for themselves how frequently that ship lands on the right part of killmails; seriously, it's not that fucking hard), they think projectiles are fine because you can switch damage types (I don't even have projectiles trained and even I know it's pure bullshit), they don't see a problem with multiple titans in cynojammed systems packed with (super)capital escort, and so on and so on....

Yes, seriously....Make cloaks just not fuckin work on non-cloaker ships.

Maybe a delay of like 30 secs on emergency warp after a ctrl q?

No, its not, and every time someone says that an actuary in banished to hell.

Good god, we had a really good discussion about this with Greyscale 7 god damned months ago (http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=729912&page=2#40).

Killing local is a terrible idea, like game killing fucking terrible horrible, how could you be so fucking stupid to do that.

edit: That link earlier in the thread? Retarded. 3 minutes for a cov-ops/recon. Its nearly as good as zero local, you can move through entire systems, find, and kill a target before that timer is up.

Ok, I am now drunk and home from a night of hot Rockband action (Vocalist) so here goes the rant.  *deep breath*


First of all.  I am an EMPIRE BUILDER.  Now, I cannot speak for other 0.0 space but Providence stays humming.  We have hundreds and thousands of players active doing who knows what involving the region.  I enter local and people wave.  I log in and people ask me how I am doing, a conversation breaks out IN LOCAL.  Community gaming.  Massive MULTIPLAYER.  If I have to announce myself in every system I jump through? Yeah, fuck you.  We build an Empire not vacant space with only high value moon mining and hunting for officers (we get none).  The rest of 0.0 I see, which is not everything of course, is mostly vacant or sparse systems.  If you want the possibility of populated 0.0 built removing local is chest slapping retarded. 

Fighting.  Are you serious?  Cloaker gangs.  Gankers squads running around .  Defenders gathered up at safe spots with scouts out, the entire episode as awkward as finding out you felt up your sister at a dance.  Combat gangs wont know what the fuck is going on.  For all the cries from gankers about local, try being a part of a gang looking to fight the hostiles.  Last night we had 21 hostiles reported.  we rolled out with 8, maxed at 12 in gang, couldnt find a thing to do and went to HED of all fucking places.  Even then we didnt get much of a fight.  Sure you want to encourage nano cloaking superfaggot gank?  Remove local.  If anything use of local helps you FIND fights.  Those crying for local removal want ganks, not fights, and they can fuck right off.  EVE can contain ganks but should focus on fights. 

Local is not perfect but it does present an EVEN field.  People can safe up seeing hostiles in local.  Hostiles can bugger right off seeing a friendly gang jump in.  Fair trade, you know where the fight MIGHT be.  Smart money says more and more cloaks fit for everything.  Local intel restricted to those who type will only make the situation worse by several magnitudes.

Now, I am not a ganker, and for those of you reading this who think EVE should be a game of ganks and such I apologize, we do not agree.  EVE is not a gank game of struggle between pilots/corps/alliances/factions  The only tool we have right now to determine WHERE the hostiles are is local (aside from intel channels).  Remove that and we fumble about in a mire.  Tell me what local removal solves?  I can think of nothing. 

Local has been here forever.  If removing local solves problems how about having balls and removing Titans, MS, other cap ships and related bpos to fix sov warfare?  Then you can take away cyno jammers, bridges and some other tower modules.  That will not happen of course because it is far too late plugging the hole.  Local has been here, you cannot stopper it.  The very notion of removing it in current context is grossly irresponsible.

Preach on, brotha.  You make more sense drunk than CCP does sober   :drill:

 :yahoo:

couldn't find an applause emoticon on short notice

It does matter to me, either way I will hunt you down and kill you.

Adaptation is key in any PVP game. I personally would rather have it not gone, but if it goes you won't see me crying.

Nice post Pezzle you should post drunk here more often reminds me of old times :grin: I'm slowly being converted here towards being against it, I was pretty ambivalent to begin with but I hate making firm stances against things without exploring the possiblities. I would personally only see a change working if it was nice n'subtle like a ten second delay before you appear and this would only apply to 0.0, empire is instantaneous, but even then there would be plenty other issues. I think the general idea is to look for alternatives to using local that currently don't exist it's a huge subject open to interpretation. That said and knowing CCP and their hamfisted approach to everything it's probably best if they leave it alone :grin:

Oh and by old times I mean I haven't posted drunk in a longtime.

One of the things I think they're trying to address is gate face-offs.  You've got 80 guys on one side of a gate, and you know the enemy has a couple cloakers watching you (because there's 2 hostiles in local that aren't on scans).  They've got 80 guys on their side of the gate, and they know you have cloakers watching them (local again).  All anyone can do is sit on each side of the gate. waiting for the someone to either make a move, make a mistake, get reinforcements, or get bored and either charge or retreat.

You know how many nights I wasted away watching a bunch of red boxes orbit a gate at optimals?  And how easy it was for a solo scout to follow a hostile gang?  The ease with which you could use local to get a rough estimate of the opposition, and track their general movements without really working at it, has shaped a lot of 0.0 tactics.  Hell, just not automatically knowing when Titan pilots are in system will change a lot.

0.0 warfare needs these kinds of shakeups every once it a while.  It helps turn over the dead wood, strong alliances aren't as willing to explore a new tactical handbook, which creates opportunities for the new fish to promote themselves to sharks.

--Dave

Removing local will NOT make people jump those gangs in.  It will lead to the same level of stalemates you have now, or more.  If fleets will not jump in knowing the numbers do you think they will without knowing?  Smart command acts with good intel.  Take away the only decent bit we get and we are talking a snail pace.

I tend to agree with Pezzle on this one, Mahrin.  As an FC I don't want to jump my 80-man gang into a hostile system without knowing that the enemy force isn't 200 strong with a Titan.  Though I do agree that you're right about shaking up 0.0 warfare.

If both sides are at the gate and both sides have people watching them, local does not count.

It will simultaneously kill 0.0 ratting and mining (because you can never know whats coming) and 0.0 gangs (because you can never know where someone is).

It will *kill* stone dead any community outside of existing groups as no one's going to say ANYTHING in local.

If CCP does it, game implodes in 5 weeks.

It's one reason why GF's latest offensive move (which I can't really talk about, for the few people here without spies on our boards) is particularly smart, and gets around a lot of these problems nicely through use of game machanics.  I wonder whether we had slight warning of this.  Goony devsploits tbqh.

At some point, some dev read one of Jade's walls of text (http://www.eve-search.com/thread/755364/page/1)...

-Edit- Yay for quote and modify being right next to  eachother  :nda:

I read the linked thread from page one.  Nice theory, but it will not work out that way.  Local delay favors the fast moving gang.  They already have enough advantages.  The gankers will know if targets are in system and have a minute or two of hunt time before the target is aware of them unless the mark is hammering scanner.  4 guys run into a system, hit 4 belts, jump out, rinse/repeat.  If you get found out just cloak until the defenders lose interest, then it is back to the races.  This type of thing happens NOW, why make it worse?

CCP makes such a big deal about the graphics that no one in pvp cares about anyhow.  Now we are supposed to watch that ugly scanner tool?  This will slow down response times, slow down pursuit, slow down fleets engaging each other.  Imagine the joy of having to wait a minute or two per system to be sure the 4 guys about actually did leave. 

The EVE combat model does have many problems.  Problems with cloaks, blobs, cap ship online, sov, useless ships, lack of roles for some classes etc.  Local is not the problem here.  FC's will quickly learn not to move their gangs of any real size without scouts out everywhere making SURE that nothing is in system or that intel is correct.  Yeah, warfare needs a shakeup, this is not it, this will not help fleet war.

And even if you spend all day spamming the scanner, by the time my slow-ass Domi sees a bunch of interceptors on scan, it's probably too late.  They're in the belt ten seconds before I can be in war and tackling my ass.

Zulupark said that they will be making changes to the scanner functionality as a tool to the potential gankee.

Scanner would have to be balls awesome to counter the benefit of a short term local cloak.  What change could they possibly make that will remove the need for clicking the button every 5 seconds?  The UI is messy enough as it is.

Have it run automatically like a radar pulsing or a second long range overview.

Even that would not deal with a warps-when-cloaked recon.

Also, wouldn't a constantly running scanner work horrors on system lag?

Not if they created a new tab in the scanner that is nondirectional and removes the 14AU limit.

If they make the new tab see through cloaks as well, you'd basically get a list of ship types and names in system that isn't linked to pilots, the server would run the list in much the same way that it figures out local.

It would be a complete nightmare for NRDS regions ofc.

it is still ANOTHER dumb window cluttering up an already broken overview.  Remember looking at ships?  Neither do I.  If they really wanted to integrate it there would be symbols out in space on the overview, not on a scanner.  That of course brings up other problems.  The scanner as a concept is flawed.  Fixing the design flaws would require giving up the whole concept of 'directional'.  Of course it is fucking directional.  Having to narrow the search down for most things makes no sense.  This cannot be changed, we would know where the hostiles were (roughly) as well as towers and whatever else with little to no effort.  I would guess most of the people bitching about local would be bitching about the scanner a day after local was removed.

Micromanaging windows and tabs and brackets does not make EVE fun.  Why shouldn't this technology make our lives easier?  The scanner change is very meh, the star map zoom in/out is a bit of highly annoying useless fluff I want to shut off.  If I want to see the map I do not want my breath to be taken away as I realize the awesome size of the universe and my tiny place in it.  This is not a romance novel.  Just open the damn map.  Having to tic through lots of options to be functional is not my idea of entertainment.  Nor is having to fix it all every time I patch.  The windows on our overview stack or collapse on each other for no good reason at seeming random jumps, the entire UI is designed so we see less and less of space and the super space ships ccp are so proud of.

We could play this game in ascii symbols for all the ship graphics matter in combat.  We need more function.  Making things complex is not the same as functional.  More clutter is not functional.  The system needs to be stripped down and made lean.  So many features do not work properly.  EVE voice fails on me more than half the time.  Tower modules offline or bug out for no reason, corp management is a FUCKING NIGHTMARE as is outpost administration.  The bits and pieces we get do not seem designed to work with the rest of the system and it snowballs into more problems as the months drag on.

For all the trouble with local it is fair to both sides.  Everyone gets the same information.  That is about as stable as we can expect from EVE right now.  Given current game mechanics this is about the last thing you want to change.

Pezzle for CSM.

It sounds like even if they did all this scanner stuff, it would net out to be the same as local is now.  And local has the advantage of currently working and needing no new code which will undoubtedly break in some ridiculous manner and never be fixed since there will then be some other fundamental game mechanic they need to go break.  Instead they could focus on one of the many gamebreaking issues they never seem to get back to.

I'd back this.

Interesting thought.  Is Hardin up for reelection?

Not that I know of.  I think RL attacked him keeping him away from EVE.  Before the first CSM he and I had a discussion about who would run.  Between my own life being busy and me not having the passport in order (figuring Hardin would run again) it will be the next CSM before I can consider running.  Of course if we have another candidate, and we might, it could be further delayed.  But thank you for the support ;)

Heh, guess I'm voting for Darius then.

Jesus, I was planning to come back, at least on probation, for Ambulation. But by the time it's released, the core game will suck even more.

For that matter, if they really intend to fuck over local (decisions like that are mostly done deals), I hope that there's at least compensation in the scanner components and on covert ops frigates (no decloak under 2km and/or smooth transition between jump cloak to real cloak to avoid blipping on the overview).

--edit: Any maybe implementing some group jump functionality, so that you can jump a whole group in at once (one jump effect only) and the camping party won't know what'll hit them if they don't have proper scouts.

TBH, based on other veiled things, I'm betting that the guy who suggested that CCP proposing sweeping nerfs months before they happen in order to make new features seam ever more awesome was right.  "So your Vaga was nerfed?  Just train up for the T3 supercruiser!  No more local?  Don't worry, now the scanner is better than ever and doesn't obfuscate everything behind it!"

I'm wondering what kind of reqs t3 ships are going to have, HAC5 for the new supercruisers?
Maybe they'll just add in a 6th level to all the skills, cruiser 6 would only take what...5 months?

Which would explain why they killed ghost training.

Tech 3 ships better not be a fucking vertical skill train. Not that i am not in a sweet position to train them, but its just a retarded idea.

There are much better ways to do tech 3.

I'm also wondering what CCP did to the server this morning that fucked it up so badly.  What did they ninja-tweak?

I don't know, but its terrible.

They're saying (http://myeve.eve-online.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=909207) something about a problem with the load balancer, so my guess would be they tried something related to more need-for-speed and it fubared their servers.  It doesn't sound like they were tweaking in-game items.

hey guys just to get back to t3 for a second...

I'm a new player (10m sp), and i can't help but think that t3 will widen a gap that many new players already feel to be near insurmountable... so maybe i'll just breeze through the well-trodden path here

1. i know sp doesn't mean win
2. i know "catching up" is a false goal
3. friends and tactics trump sp and ships

but taking all that for a given, i feel like around 10m sp i can start being more of a competitive solo pvp'r against older pilots.... so i've got support skills at IV and they've got them at V, the difference isn't insurmountable with a bit of luck and smarts

won't t3 just increase the delay before new players can do more than just tackle, and start being able to solo? i know this is a contentious issue...

Yes it does. And yes, CCP will bullshit you. Unless T3 does not create more levels of nested skills.

This isn't quite true I believe to be a myth, there's only so many skill points you can drop into each class so if you choose to specialize you will level the playing field quite quickly, as a one year old pilot I've soloed and defeated pilots with 2-3 times my SP because I can match their skills in that ship class.

nested skills ie hierarchical skills? like the current t2 ship skills? just curious, how could CCP make it so that t3 doesn't require nested skills? you mean like make t3 a substitute/compliment to t2 ships, rather than their trump card?

The whole concept is broken.  If the prerequisite is finding and exploiting wormholes in 0.0 they screwed it up already.  0.0 is messed up right now.  What is the barrier for entry?  How many hundreds or thousands of pilots do you need?  You need huge numbers or the good will of others with huge numbers.  The custom ships sounds like fun until you realize only a handful of those will be viable or considered 'good enough'.  Sure if you have the access time and income you might fuss about with oddities, but the numbers will be quickly crunched and best solutions found.  CCP cannot let ships become wildly overpowered with T3 (or they shouldn't).  Balance has to be maintained.  Players may be excited by T3 but I think they are going about the job of custom ships entirely wrong.  

Yes, he means vertical skill progression[t2 ships] rather than horizontal skill progression[other races ships]. Then there is the stuff right in between, which is stuff like thermo dynamics[its not strictly vertical in that anyone can train it, but its another thing that every pilot needs to be competitive, so its still on the "vertical" path]

RE:

Pezzle, I agree, its possible to balance it, but who knows.

P.S. what do you think of continually competitive production? (http://www.scrapheap-challenge.com/viewtopic.php?t=20595)

I think they'll go horizontal: these T3 ships will, maybe, have prerequisites similar to T2 ships, and will be (less) powerful than T2 ships.  First, they're going to be heavily pre-nerfed, and even after they un-pre-nerf, the "balance of power" will be such that only the most min-maxed combinations will be competitive with T2 (and the majority of combinations will be paper-thin eye-candy).

I expect that, just like with current ships, there won't be any combination that will allow battleship-sized CPU and grid AND interceptor speeds, or 8/8/8 slots and the grid to fill them all, etc.

So, pretty much pre-nerfed eye-candy that's shite in actual combat.

It is not a terrible idea, just one I am not sure I can support (at current).  The system I read really does favor the 0.0 sov holders though, and I am not sure that is fair.  It does feel very artificial.  Grinding means even more grinding?  Popular with some, but not really with me.  Those who can afford large towers jammed with modules (or have caldari outposts) will dominate the bpos, everyone else gets slim pickings.  The speed of your research becomes the most important factor.

I really think new tech has to go horizontal from T2, not vertical.  If we want it vertical it needs to be from tech one and not overlap with T2.  That is, T3 should be different than T2, maybe better in some ways, maybe worse than others.  Creation of that tech should not use the same methods as T2 creation(invention).  At this stage there should also be design variations.  CCP seems to agree with me, unfortunately they have some odd barriers and design choices which will leave much to be desired by players.

Just about every innovation in EVE has catered to the 0.0 Sov holders/players. CCP feels only the 0.0 player is "doing it right" or how ever you want to put it.

0.0 players make up the largest swath of interested players that are most likely to keep playing i am betting.

Also, FW wasn't for 0.0[and hey want to ruin 0.0 Sov by implementing FW mechanics into it]

You guessed wrong  :oh_i_see:



Something like 3/4th's the player base has never even entered 0.0 space.

I don't think Goumin meant that 0.0 makes up the majority of the player base just it makes up the majority of the people who don't quit after a few months, though I also could be wrong.

Except 0.0 is fucked up.  If CCP wants players to build empires they need to offer incentives.  Right now you have moons>npcs>ore (maybe ore and npcs are reversed but if you have one you tend to have the other anyway so meh).  That is what matters in 0.0.  People claim entire regions, keep the good moons and parcel out the rest.  Most do not give a shit about empire building, and why should they?  There are no advantages.  You build up just enough to support yourself.  You take the moons you can.  

I think there should be real reasons to develop at a constellation level.  Bonuses for claiming and maintaining a constellation.  The ability to add your own bonus for operating that constellation.  Maybe paths to other systems in the constellation open up.  You could have military, industrial or wild bonuses which impact productivity, npcs, exploration, really every facet of life.  It would give 0.0 alliances and groups reasons to develop inward and might actually make space outside a few moons worth fighting for and keeping.

It's not totally fucked I mean it's just more sandbox-y, the way it is you have to create reasons to control certain areas like Providence being a prime example. But as far as progressive reasons that you have mentioned that would make it less sandbox-y and possibly more interesting I think CCP will pull the sandbox card on most things of that nature in 0.0 rather than looking at fixing it. One thing I always thought would be nice would be the allowance of renaming either a system or constellation if you held Sov for a certain period of time. Although I'm sure there are potential problems assosciated with this idea, if it was just Constellation it would be a nice touch and I don't think it would effect the databases much.

3/4 of the characters have never even entered 0.0. Start adding mission and trade alts from the 0.0 players and that number starts to diminish.

Its my estimation that 0.0 players are the most likely to have multiple accounts, and the most likely to stick around. But that is entirely a subjective assessment.

Give us market data access from other regions!  That would remove the need for 2 of my alt characters.

Now that we're on that rail I would also like to know item sell history by station/system/constellation not just region so I can overcharge Sylph again.

You mean like factional warfare and factional ships, or like walking in stations, or adding more low sec, or Marauders?

And the Orca.  And the suicide ganking changes.  And the autopilot auto-avoidance of Jita.  And the bazillions? of new missions.

fucking carebears never happy.

PVE is where the serious money is.  CCP want money, they will provide content for the PVE.

Not sure I altogether agree: I think Eve is where it is because of the sweeping storylines and ongoing drama.  That's all in 0.0, and it's what gets them coverage, what marks them out from the Diku shit, and what keeps people subscribing for years instead of months.

Our Bat Country group is a perfect example: we've had a great retention rate since moving to 0.0, and the deeper into 0.0, the better we've held onto people.  No F13 MMO group has kept as busy and bouyant as the Eve project, and while I admit that some of that is bound to be down to individuals, a lot of it is the storyline and the motivations provided by the game in 0.0.

Oh hell yeah, 0.0 is full of drama, politics and violence. The fact that we don't know what's going to happen next, who's gonna be the next target or who's gonna invade just keeps me coming back for more. Sure there are moments of complete mind numbing, but if I was running missions in empire making lots of cash, I would have quit by now.

0.0 has more variety that high-sec could ever offer. There are probably more people in high-sec, but long term subs I would guess are 90% 0.0 dwellers.

That was an MMO statement, not an EVE statement.  The walking in station is a perfect example of CCP making a grab.  They are building for another game but why not take advantage and draw new people into EVE?  MMO's that are PVE oriented have always made more money.  CCP sees the money and wants some!

Problem with that is that markets change.  The things that "always" make money and are a "sure thing" end up being swamped because everyone wants in on the pie.

A better long term strategy - no, the ONLY long-term strategy - is differentiation.  This is the internet - if you appeal to 0.01% of the people you're still doing really well.  EVE does worldy PvP really well.  They'd be well-advised to nurse that competitive advantage.

When is the local change going to happen?  I still don't know what I'm doing but it seems like an awful lot of strategy revolves around knowing who is in the solar system.

It's only hearsay at the moment nothing has been confirmed they are toying with the idea as much as they are toying with a skill q. Also it's gonna be a hard to thing to test out properly cause SISI is an artificial game environment.

I'd like to see Local go (I mean, it should stay as a chat channel, but no player list), but NOT without CCP implementing a good replacement for intel-gathering purposes.  And what I imagine to be a good intel-gathering replacement (announcements from all of the region's stargates that reds / blues / neutrals have jumped through, that are integrated with the map so you can see dots moving), they aren't going to code.  As a matter of fact, I have doubts that CCP can code anything that would qualify as "good" in anyone's eyes.

there is no good alternative for local.  Local alerts both sides.  You see who it is at as close to the same time as possible, you want a 2 second delay?  Scanner changes will not make the difference, it is almost an entirely different mechanic.  Scanners require hammering on your button, that is stupid.  For all the complaints the attackers make, imagine the difficulty of pursuit without local.  In the absence of an alternative (and NOTHING suggested about the scanner so far is viable) local should stay. 

That is me not even breaking open the can about social gaming ;) 

Well, they could remove the list of pilots out of the channel and put it in the Overview, have the Overview list all pilots with -- -- -- for distance, ship type, etc. if they're not in the local grid.  That way they'd compact the list some (no more portraits), and we could customize it if we want to (for example, have it NOT show blues or greens).

Local-the-channel could stay as a chat tool.

and then you start using your overview filters in fleet fights and no longer have any idea how many people are in local?  Or you cannot find your target in the spammy list of people not involved in the fight?  This suggestion just moves the data from one place to another on the screen unless I am missing something?

Not to mention that you can remove the portraits now.