f13.net

From Tigole:

Actually, we have been discussing new battlegrounds quite a bit lately. Wrath of the Lich King will feature Strand of the Ancients (attack/defend) as well as Wintergrasp (non-instanced, world PvP).

But past that, we are exploring ideas that would involve expanding our Battleground content in future patches and beyond. We believe we have some strong ideas for improving Battlegrounds and PvP as a whole in the game and we're definitely going to focus on improvements in the future. Now, it's very early to be talking about some of this stuff but I think it's important for the community to know that it's on our minds.

Our general thought is that we could provide more BG content over time. The BG content that we could provide could be of higher quality with a higher degree of accessibility. Overall, we'd like to have more content and variety. We also want the gameplay experience in the BGs to be better directed. We're also exploring the concept of a complimentary "competitive" bg system as well. Over time, we'd like the focus of PvP to shift back to being more BG-centric and more focused on Horde versus Alliance -- the core of our game.

We're also planning on improving some Battleground and PvP features in general. For example, we want to give you the ability to queue for Battlegrounds from anywhere in the world. We're also going to explore EXP gain through the PvP system as well as low level itemization to support that.

Please don't take this post as a promise. This won't be an overnight process. Not all of these things are set in stone and guaranteed to happen. It would take us a while to shift in this direction. But these are some of the current thoughts on the development team. I think it's important for you guys to know some of our thought process in regards to PvP.


*massive facepalm*

This really annoys me how Blizzard is making an about face on stances I knew was complete BS. (the slow pace new BG maps were being made, their importance vs arena and pvp XP)

But as much as I think it was important for Blizard to listen to their pvp fans years ago I think they are making a mistake because it's being implied all they are doing is ripping off WAR. If "the Innovator's Dilemma" or other business books are to be believed then Blizzard is already behind the curve and adaptation won't do anything to prevent WAR from gaining the subs they will get to the detriment of WoW's market share.


If Blizzard is going to make BGs significant again I think they should take things a lot further such as where zone control is dictated by the aggregate amount of BG wins over a period of time.

Taking things from other games that people liked is exactly what makes wow so popular, I wouldnt really call it conceding. If anything WAR showed up and now wow is trying to hamstring their initial momentum.

Yeah, Blizzard stealing from their competitors, improving the concepts and polishing them until they shine is hardly a new thing.
Doesn't seem to have done them any harm so far.

Blizzard has *always* been behind the curve on this kind of thing. What they succeed at is taking other company's great ideas and iffy implementations and polishing the everliving fuck out of them. That said, I don't think they're positioned to get their PVP quite into WAR shape, because gear dependency is heavier in WoW.

It's almost always best to be 'behind the curve,'  anyway, at least on things you can't patent.

 I had this explained best when we were looking at moving to new, more modern, drafting software.   There's a concept called "the idiot tax."  (Or, innovator's tax)  It means you, being the innovator, get to make all the mistakes, do all the legwork and put all the effort into fixing the initial problems with a system.  Once that's done, someone else can swoop in and just nab the employees, ideas, or methods from you and refine them without any of the effort or resource expenditure you put into getting to that point.

In games, this means once you figure out how to do something, implement it and prove that it works, congrats! You just did all the market research and hard work for Blizzard.  They'll now be polishing it and including it into whatever big-money maker they're working on right now while you struggle to figure out how to pay the bills after shipping a little early and unfinished.   :grin:

Exactly.  Look at Diablo I.  Blizzard was a small studio that made smallish fun games that happened to have some money from their latest game Warcraft, they saw another smaller studio named Condor was making a game that was essentially Nethack with graphics, bought the studio and threw in a bunch of ideas they had from Warcraft I, and essentially had a hit.  Take Warcraft I and add boats, instant hit of Warcraft II.  Take Warcraft I & II and reskin it in space with some other ideas involved, get Starcraft and have a HUGE hit.  Make Diablo I again... but with more levels and slightly more depth and have a massive hit.  Take Warcraft II lore and units, make it persistent, watch what other companies were doing wrong AND right, implement, and zomgthefeelgoodhitofsummer for years in WoW.  And all this time they never force a game out before it was really ready (or before they felt it should go out) and they've yet to have a dud.  Without being the most original company, just a company that polishes everything until a good portion of the population enjoys it and wants to play it.

Bullshit, I've been playing war since before release and gear is HUGE in warhammer. loot is almost exactly on the same forumalae as wow in green/blue/purple as well. People that are fresh level 40 will get stomped just as much as fresh level 70's in wow by people who have been farming those purps and i doubt gear will be any easier to get in warhammer, it hasn't been so far.

People keep saying all these things about how war is different and while it IS good there is ntohing i have seen that make me think they will magically not have the same problems with gear/catassing that all dikus have.

Does WAR have stat caps?

don't think so...though initiative does lower your chance to be crit so i would think there's a finite amount of that you can get. I know my chosen with tactics could get down to a 0% crit chance and that's at level 25 but the other stats seem to just go up and up.

WoW is a great game but WAR kicks it's ass in the pvp area.  It's because RvR is baked into the game, not tacked on like WoW's. 

Warhammer Online: Original as fuck

(http://img389.imageshack.us/img389/2835/19171888kv9.jpg)

Wow.

Obvious Game Design is Obvious.

Again, bullshit, that is the exact same map as arathi basin except they added to extra roads leading to the blacksmith.

And no farm/stables... AB with only 3 nodes is not really AB. :p


-- Z.

Are you even playing WAR or are you just bitching about it for no other reason?  I mean you didn't even know how many people were in a full warband.

That map is pretty blatantly a redrawn AB. With a bridge added to remove the Horde's obvious advantage to the BS.

Having said that, WSG is just a shitty CTF map. Hopefully they can rmeove that fucking waste of time and space from the game. They can say a meteor fell from Outland and smashed the entire section of Ashenvale.

Level 22(3) chosen on phoenix throne, ulfrik dreadblight, come say hi

Actually in that thread i was asking to be sarcastic because it was mentioned there wasn't any raiding in warhammer. People so desperately want warhammer to be this unique flower and their pvp saviour but it's not. Warhammer is level+loot > skill, it's nothing but wow style battlegrounds and empty rvr zones or repetitive bland pve until you reach the endgame where you rvr until you get a a chance to raid.

Look I'm fine with warhammer using that map but if you are gonna say it's not an ab clone you're full of shit.

lol welcome to the dark age of Chosen then. T3 early game is the worst time for my Chosen. Tor Anroc is just not my kind of map

Those rocky paths and roads are in AB except nobody without waterwalk/ swim form uses them because swimming is slower than just running around to the next road.

It's not an AB clone.  It's got similarities to AB but it also has similarities to the old DAOC battlegrounds.  Did WoW rip off DAOC battlegrounds?  Nope, but there are similarities.

Schild is right.  Obvious game design is obvious.

They first need to deemphasize arenas.  Go ahead and give discounts using scores from Arena, but stop locking out the good stuff to purely BG players.  There is no need for it.

Also, I'd like to see a BG that has elements from the original Warcraft games.  Start each side on opposite ends of the map and allow them to activate different nodes along the way for resources, better NPCs, better technology, etc.  Each side can use tactics to undermine those nodes from behind or just put a full frontal assault (exposing their backsides, etc.)

Maybe that's the idea on that outdoors PvP area (that'd be great if it is.) 

You know how many FPS maps i could post that are just that.  :oh_i_see:

This.

I can say this no more plainly: I will buy WLK for my PvE fix, because nobody does it better, but I am *fucking done* with WoW PvP after the arena for BG gear nonsense. I hate arena. I don't care if the requirements are small. I do not want to zone into arenas.

And that's cool with me because I can have WAR for my PvP, WoW for my PvE. But putting resources into BGs does fuckall as long as the arena boner remains.

I didn't say WAR had *no* gear dependency; please to not be putting words in my mouth. It is not anywhere NEAR as gear-dependent as WoW PVP, and I will stand by that.

4 year game vs. 1 month game. Nobody can honestly make that statement about how important gear is to the game. You simply don't know because we have no testing yet.

If we look back on the discussions before WAR was launched, it revolved around WAR not having ANY gear dependency.  Then Alpha came out and those arguments got softer to, "Well, they have some dependency, but it is very minor."  Then Beta came out and those arguments went away completely.  Nobody talked about it.

Now, I read the WAR forums and find people stating that the game is now very dependent on gear.

Given that timeline, I believe your theory of "give it time," is correct sir.

Hrm, there certainly is gear dependency in WAR. But the difference I think you'll see is that there's little discrepancy. In WoW you need to be a 2200 arena monkey to have the best PvP gear. It's rare, and most BG players get rolled by arena players due to the large gear discrepancy. In WAR (both CB and release) the gear is important, but it's accessible simply by playing the regular game itself be that scenarios, PQ's or RvR. This may change but so far I haven't found myself 'outgeared' by people with items I couldn't get.

It's going to be so  :drill: when I play my deathknight and ride my unholy zombie horse across those routes with the water freezing beneath its hooves.  :rock_hard:

Here's a big difference: I could still rape face naked in WAR at Tier 4. A tank probably couldn't, but a ranged DPS? Sure, no problem.

Blizzard’s new focus for WoW, just as soon as Mythic finishes it. (http://syncaine.wordpress.com/2008/10/07/blizzards-new-focus-for-wow-just-as-soon-as-mythic-finishes-it/)


 :why_so_serious:

So gear does not scale total HP enough and lack of either spell or physical resistance to ranged DPS through gear?  Basically class type imbalance between ranged and melee classes.

It looks like AB, but even from someone who hasn't played WAR it doesn't look like it would play much the same at all. There are two raised bases and one middle one -- not a whole lot you can do to make a map like that look different than AB, yet it completely changes strategy and pace in the round. I'll bet each side starts with more people, there is more indoor space, etc.

There are plenty of ways WAR copies or barely improves upon WoW. This isn't one of them.

Is that middle area just 1 base?

It would be a total awesome cluster fuck if it was two, and the two raised bases could rain down fire on the middle two!

You must be joking.

A few things I can think of offhand:
Don't have a central water area.  Find some other obstacle (or none)
Do bases at north and south instead of east and west.
Have it surrounded by something besides mountains.
Have a different layout for the ridges.


Be real, this thing's a straight up copy.

I think right now people in WAR are confusing Gear dependency with Level dependency.  Sure gear makes a difference, especially between say 7 and 8 or 8 and 10.  But, once you hit T3 it really becomes about Abilities more than Gear.  So, a level 28 will generally kill a level 22 even in the same gear because their abilities (if used correctly) give them an advantage.

I think that is one reason people say that gear won't make AS much a difference in the late game.  Once we all hit 40 we all have the same abilities.  Sure gear will affect a bit of damage and HP, but you have to go a Loooooooong way to hit WoW-esque gear dependence.

If you believe the friend of a friend of a random anonymous Gamespot poster, things are going great!

http://www.gamespot.com/pc/rpg/warhammeronline/show_msgs.php?topic_id=m-1-45871147&pid=520538

A level 65 in WoW who is geared up the wazoo will probably get slaughtered by a level 70 in greens. If the issue is "How much is WAR like WoW in terms of gear dependency?" introducing level into the picture doesn't answer the question.

Gear helps, and abilities or lack thereof too, however it is possible for a character a few levels lower to win in a straight up fight.  A lot of it is situationally dependent.  Knowing a class well, and how to put yourself in those situations, does make a difference.

Not a whole lot you can do to make a map like that looks like AB look different to AB?

Maybe start by not making it look like AB then? Seriously.
This is the Fantasy Warhammer MMO, sure. But borrow and steal a few ideas from elsewhere in the GW catalogue. 40k, since it's also skirmish based. Necromunda. GorkaMorka. Mordheim. Inquisitor. White Dwarf Magazine. Lord of the Rings Fantasy Battle Game.

Seriously - GW is a company that makes tabletop battle games, the majority of which are skirmish based. Do you have any idea how many scenarios and battle maps they've designed and published over the last 20 years? And Mythic comes up with AB v1.5?

Looking slightly outside the box is obvious game design.

 :uhrr:

How many Warhammer maps does AB look like? 50? 100?

Just wondering.

It's not so much just that they're doing it, but they don't typically just come out and announce that they're making plans to take concepts from a game the less than a month after said game releases though.

Well, that map also plays completely diffrent.

It's not the first time Mythic have ripped off ideas from WoW.

Check out this map (http://www.ceejbot.com/DAoC/battlegrounds.jpg).

Man, that's old, like extra O's oooold. The old keep designs were so much shit  :heart:

WoW does not have bolster.

The level of your Warhammer fanboism perplexes me.

The correct answer would be "I can't actually think of any that look like AB".

It's not fanboism, it's a lack of faith in Blizzard to ever produce anything remotely original.

Azazel, I don't even play tabletop Warhammer nor care for nearly any of the scenarios in WAR, if you've actually been following the WAR forum. But the fact remains that Warhammer (the tabletop game) has been around for long enough that every single possible map and configuration has been done umpteenth times. Sure, the tabletop game has some verticality that WAR will never really have, but at the same time, your "I can't actually think of any" merely denotes a faulty logic. I can't either, but I'd still wouldn't bet against it just knowing how many games have been played and how many Games Workshop has sketched out at their office. It's probably a number between Way Too Many and "Freakish." And I'd bet that Mythic had access to whatever was necessary for the War portions of the game (and even the PvE stuff).

"Good" is better than "original".

Actually blizzard announced at blizzcon that their next MMO was going to be a completely new universe

They're probably sick of "But in the single player game..." being thrown in their face after 4 years.  :drill:

Fuuuuck yoooou! What they should be doing is cutting out BGs so I don't have to play them ever again. :drill:

That means it won't be Diablo, Warcraft or Starcraft.

It doesn't mean they won't be ripping off someone else (please ripoff Planescape).

See, the problem with your paragraph, is while they may/probably have run games on maps similar to AB, they have run hundreds or more likely thousands of games on maps that work well yet don't look anything like AB. I'd also agree with you that Mythic has or should have access to whatever at GW they like, which is why it perplexes me so much that they came up with fucking Arathi Basin 1.5.

It's not about Blizzard here, their orginality, of lack therof. I'm firmly in the camp of "Blizzard ripped off GW for Warcraft" camp as much as I'm in the "GW rips off everything they can" camp as far as either IP being remotely original. It's about how with thousands (I think we can agree) of GW PVP maps (thats what the TT Game is- PVP) at Mythic's disposal, they still came up with AB 1.5.

Do please point me to something, anything, that is wholy original and has not 'ripped off' any prior work in some regard.

Really who gives a shit.

The invention of fire was a fuckingly amazing original thing. Around the same time, I've heard it rumored, Og the Caveman came up with a story called "Boy Meets Girl, Loses Girl, Gets Girl Back". It was awesome.

The point is not originality, it is execution. So far that's Blizzard 1, Mythic 0.2, Funcom -2.5.

Newton!   Leibniz!
Newton!   Leibniz!

My work here is done.  :drill: