Warhammer draws first blood. WoW concedes ground, but should it?

[mutantmagnet]

From Tigole:

Actually, we have been discussing new battlegrounds quite a bit lately. Wrath of the Lich King will feature Strand of the Ancients (attack/defend) as well as Wintergrasp (non-instanced, world PvP).

But past that, we are exploring ideas that would involve expanding our Battleground content in future patches and beyond. We believe we have some strong ideas for improving Battlegrounds and PvP as a whole in the game and we're definitely going to focus on improvements in the future. Now, it's very early to be talking about some of this stuff but I think it's important for the community to know that it's on our minds.

Our general thought is that we could provide more BG content over time. The BG content that we could provide could be of higher quality with a higher degree of accessibility. Overall, we'd like to have more content and variety. We also want the gameplay experience in the BGs to be better directed. We're also exploring the concept of a complimentary "competitive" bg system as well. Over time, we'd like the focus of PvP to shift back to being more BG-centric and more focused on Horde versus Alliance -- the core of our game.

We're also planning on improving some Battleground and PvP features in general. For example, we want to give you the ability to queue for Battlegrounds from anywhere in the world. We're also going to explore EXP gain through the PvP system as well as low level itemization to support that.

Please don't take this post as a promise. This won't be an overnight process. Not all of these things are set in stone and guaranteed to happen. It would take us a while to shift in this direction. But these are some of the current thoughts on the development team. I think it's important for you guys to know some of our thought process in regards to PvP.


*massive facepalm*

This really annoys me how Blizzard is making an about face on stances I knew was complete BS. (the slow pace new BG maps were being made, their importance vs arena and pvp XP)

But as much as I think it was important for Blizard to listen to their pvp fans years ago I think they are making a mistake because it's being implied all they are doing is ripping off WAR. If "the Innovator's Dilemma" or other business books are to be believed then Blizzard is already behind the curve and adaptation won't do anything to prevent WAR from gaining the subs they will get to the detriment of WoW's market share.


If Blizzard is going to make BGs significant again I think they should take things a lot further such as where zone control is dictated by the aggregate amount of BG wins over a period of time.

[Lakov_Sanite]

Taking things from other games that people liked is exactly what makes wow so popular, I wouldnt really call it conceding. If anything WAR showed up and now wow is trying to hamstring their initial momentum.

[Simond]

Yeah, Blizzard stealing from their competitors, improving the concepts and polishing them until they shine is hardly a new thing.
Doesn't seem to have done them any harm so far.

[Ingmar]

Blizzard has *always* been behind the curve on this kind of thing. What they succeed at is taking other company's great ideas and iffy implementations and polishing the everliving fuck out of them. That said, I don't think they're positioned to get their PVP quite into WAR shape, because gear dependency is heavier in WoW.

[Merusk]

It's almost always best to be 'behind the curve,'  anyway, at least on things you can't patent.

 I had this explained best when we were looking at moving to new, more modern, drafting software.   There's a concept called "the idiot tax."  (Or, innovator's tax)  It means you, being the innovator, get to make all the mistakes, do all the legwork and put all the effort into fixing the initial problems with a system.  Once that's done, someone else can swoop in and just nab the employees, ideas, or methods from you and refine them without any of the effort or resource expenditure you put into getting to that point.

In games, this means once you figure out how to do something, implement it and prove that it works, congrats! You just did all the market research and hard work for Blizzard.  They'll now be polishing it and including it into whatever big-money maker they're working on right now while you struggle to figure out how to pay the bills after shipping a little early and unfinished.   

[Selby]

Yeah, Blizzard stealing from their competitors, improving the concepts and polishing them until they shine is hardly a new thing.

Exactly.  Look at Diablo I.  Blizzard was a small studio that made smallish fun games that happened to have some money from their latest game Warcraft, they saw another smaller studio named Condor was making a game that was essentially Nethack with graphics, bought the studio and threw in a bunch of ideas they had from Warcraft I, and essentially had a hit.  Take Warcraft I and add boats, instant hit of Warcraft II.  Take Warcraft I & II and reskin it in space with some other ideas involved, get Starcraft and have a HUGE hit.  Make Diablo I again... but with more levels and slightly more depth and have a massive hit.  Take Warcraft II lore and units, make it persistent, watch what other companies were doing wrong AND right, implement, and zomgthefeelgoodhitofsummer for years in WoW.  And all this time they never force a game out before it was really ready (or before they felt it should go out) and they've yet to have a dud.  Without being the most original company, just a company that polishes everything until a good portion of the population enjoys it and wants to play it.

[Lakov_Sanite]

Blizzard has *always* been behind the curve on this kind of thing. What they succeed at is taking other company's great ideas and iffy implementations and polishing the everliving fuck out of them. That said, I don't think they're positioned to get their PVP quite into WAR shape, because gear dependency is heavier in WoW.

Bullshit, I've been playing war since before release and gear is HUGE in warhammer. loot is almost exactly on the same forumalae as wow in green/blue/purple as well. People that are fresh level 40 will get stomped just as much as fresh level 70's in wow by people who have been farming those purps and i doubt gear will be any easier to get in warhammer, it hasn't been so far.

People keep saying all these things about how war is different and while it IS good there is ntohing i have seen that make me think they will magically not have the same problems with gear/catassing that all dikus have.

[Fordel]

Does WAR have stat caps?

[Lakov_Sanite]

Does WAR have stat caps?

don't think so...though initiative does lower your chance to be crit so i would think there's a finite amount of that you can get. I know my chosen with tactics could get down to a 0% crit chance and that's at level 25 but the other stats seem to just go up and up.

[Tannhauser]

WoW is a great game but WAR kicks it's ass in the pvp area.  It's because RvR is baked into the game, not tacked on like WoW's. 

[Fabricated]

Warhammer Online: Original as fuck

[Azaroth]

Wow.

[schild]

Obvious Game Design is Obvious.

[Lakov_Sanite]

Obvious Game Design is Obvious.

Again, bullshit, that is the exact same map as arathi basin except they added to extra roads leading to the blacksmith.

[Zetor]

And no farm/stables... AB with only 3 nodes is not really AB. :p


-- Z.

[Evildrider]

Obvious Game Design is Obvious.

Again, bullshit, that is the exact same map as arathi basin except they added to extra roads leading to the blacksmith.

Are you even playing WAR or are you just bitching about it for no other reason?  I mean you didn't even know how many people were in a full warband.

[Azazel]

That map is pretty blatantly a redrawn AB. With a bridge added to remove the Horde's obvious advantage to the BS.

Having said that, WSG is just a shitty CTF map. Hopefully they can rmeove that fucking waste of time and space from the game. They can say a meteor fell from Outland and smashed the entire section of Ashenvale.

[Lakov_Sanite]

Obvious Game Design is Obvious.

Again, bullshit, that is the exact same map as arathi basin except they added to extra roads leading to the blacksmith.

Are you even playing WAR or are you just bitching about it for no other reason?  I mean you didn't even know how many people were in a full warband.

Level 22(3) chosen on phoenix throne, ulfrik dreadblight, come say hi

Actually in that thread i was asking to be sarcastic because it was mentioned there wasn't any raiding in warhammer. People so desperately want warhammer to be this unique flower and their pvp saviour but it's not. Warhammer is level+loot > skill, it's nothing but wow style battlegrounds and empty rvr zones or repetitive bland pve until you reach the endgame where you rvr until you get a a chance to raid.

Look I'm fine with warhammer using that map but if you are gonna say it's not an ab clone you're full of shit.

[rk47]

lol welcome to the dark age of Chosen then. T3 early game is the worst time for my Chosen. Tor Anroc is just not my kind of map

[Merusk]

Obvious Game Design is Obvious.

Again, bullshit, that is the exact same map as arathi basin except they added to extra roads leading to the blacksmith.

Those rocky paths and roads are in AB except nobody without waterwalk/ swim form uses them because swimming is slower than just running around to the next road.

[Xanthippe]

Look I'm fine with warhammer using that map but if you are gonna say it's not an ab clone you're full of shit.

It's not an AB clone.  It's got similarities to AB but it also has similarities to the old DAOC battlegrounds.  Did WoW rip off DAOC battlegrounds?  Nope, but there are similarities.

Schild is right.  Obvious game design is obvious.

[Dren]

They first need to deemphasize arenas.  Go ahead and give discounts using scores from Arena, but stop locking out the good stuff to purely BG players.  There is no need for it.

Also, I'd like to see a BG that has elements from the original Warcraft games.  Start each side on opposite ends of the map and allow them to activate different nodes along the way for resources, better NPCs, better technology, etc.  Each side can use tactics to undermine those nodes from behind or just put a full frontal assault (exposing their backsides, etc.)

Maybe that's the idea on that outdoors PvP area (that'd be great if it is.) 

[Mrbloodworth]

Warhammer Online: Original as fuck

You know how many FPS maps i could post that are just that. 

[Modern Angel]

They first need to deemphasize arenas.  Go ahead and give discounts using scores from Arena, but stop locking out the good stuff to purely BG players.  There is no need for it.

Also, I'd like to see a BG that has elements from the original Warcraft games.  Start each side on opposite ends of the map and allow them to activate different nodes along the way for resources, better NPCs, better technology, etc.  Each side can use tactics to undermine those nodes from behind or just put a full frontal assault (exposing their backsides, etc.)

Maybe that's the idea on that outdoors PvP area (that'd be great if it is.) 

This.

I can say this no more plainly: I will buy WLK for my PvE fix, because nobody does it better, but I am *fucking done* with WoW PvP after the arena for BG gear nonsense. I hate arena. I don't care if the requirements are small. I do not want to zone into arenas.

And that's cool with me because I can have WAR for my PvP, WoW for my PvE. But putting resources into BGs does fuckall as long as the arena boner remains.

[Ingmar]

I didn't say WAR had *no* gear dependency; please to not be putting words in my mouth. It is not anywhere NEAR as gear-dependent as WoW PVP, and I will stand by that.

[Paelos]

I didn't say WAR had *no* gear dependency; please to not be putting words in my mouth. It is not anywhere NEAR as gear-dependent as WoW PVP, and I will stand by that.

4 year game vs. 1 month game. Nobody can honestly make that statement about how important gear is to the game. You simply don't know because we have no testing yet.

[Dren]

I didn't say WAR had *no* gear dependency; please to not be putting words in my mouth. It is not anywhere NEAR as gear-dependent as WoW PVP, and I will stand by that.

4 year game vs. 1 month game. Nobody can honestly make that statement about how important gear is to the game. You simply don't know because we have no testing yet.

If we look back on the discussions before WAR was launched, it revolved around WAR not having ANY gear dependency.  Then Alpha came out and those arguments got softer to, "Well, they have some dependency, but it is very minor."  Then Beta came out and those arguments went away completely.  Nobody talked about it.

Now, I read the WAR forums and find people stating that the game is now very dependent on gear.

Given that timeline, I believe your theory of "give it time," is correct sir.

[squirrel]

Hrm, there certainly is gear dependency in WAR. But the difference I think you'll see is that there's little discrepancy. In WoW you need to be a 2200 arena monkey to have the best PvP gear. It's rare, and most BG players get rolled by arena players due to the large gear discrepancy. In WAR (both CB and release) the gear is important, but it's accessible simply by playing the regular game itself be that scenarios, PQ's or RvR. This may change but so far I haven't found myself 'outgeared' by people with items I couldn't get.

[Simond]

Obvious Game Design is Obvious.

Again, bullshit, that is the exact same map as arathi basin except they added to extra roads leading to the blacksmith.

Those rocky paths and roads are in AB except nobody without waterwalk/ swim form uses them because swimming is slower than just running around to the next road.

It's going to be so  when I play my deathknight and ride my unholy zombie horse across those routes with the water freezing beneath its hooves. 

[schild]

Here's a big difference: I could still rape face naked in WAR at Tier 4. A tank probably couldn't, but a ranged DPS? Sure, no problem.

[Mrbloodworth]

Blizzard’s new focus for WoW, just as soon as Mythic finishes it.


 

[Pyran]

Here's a big difference: I could still rape face naked in WAR at Tier 4. A tank probably couldn't, but a ranged DPS? Sure, no problem.

So gear does not scale total HP enough and lack of either spell or physical resistance to ranged DPS through gear?  Basically class type imbalance between ranged and melee classes.

[Drugstore Space Cowboy]

Warhammer Online: Original as fuck

It looks like AB, but even from someone who hasn't played WAR it doesn't look like it would play much the same at all. There are two raised bases and one middle one -- not a whole lot you can do to make a map like that look different than AB, yet it completely changes strategy and pace in the round. I'll bet each side starts with more people, there is more indoor space, etc.

There are plenty of ways WAR copies or barely improves upon WoW. This isn't one of them.

[Fordel]

Is that middle area just 1 base?

It would be a total awesome cluster fuck if it was two, and the two raised bases could rain down fire on the middle two!

[Jayce]

not a whole lot you can do to make a map like that look different than AB

You must be joking.

A few things I can think of offhand:
Don't have a central water area.  Find some other obstacle (or none)
Do bases at north and south instead of east and west.
Have it surrounded by something besides mountains.
Have a different layout for the ridges.


Be real, this thing's a straight up copy.