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f13.net General Forums => Warhammer Online => Topic started by: stray on September 20, 2008, 02:42:23 AM



Title: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: stray on September 20, 2008, 02:42:23 AM
Haven't played. Just asking.  :oh_i_see:


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: UnSub on September 20, 2008, 03:18:12 AM
It'll appear about two weeks after launch. A month at the outside.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: FatuousTwat on September 20, 2008, 04:56:58 AM
I really haven't noticed any frothing at the mouth about this game being good or bad. Is that a good thing?


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: schild on September 20, 2008, 04:58:20 AM
Numbers are pretty high considering who has and who hasn't gotten the name. It's the most active game in terms of people in vent besides Eve. And uhmmm, mostly people are just playing. I haven't even stepped into a few of the forums since the head-start started. This is largely unprecedented.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Trippy on September 20, 2008, 05:00:09 AM
You did the same thing when AoC was released :awesome_for_real:


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: schild on September 20, 2008, 05:04:53 AM
To be fair, I was also pretty fucking high for about 2 weeks there.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: lamaros on September 20, 2008, 05:23:42 AM
So it's better than AoC and Hellgate then? Or should one wait a month before making such a judgement?


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Trippy on September 20, 2008, 05:41:10 AM
Depends on how long it takes you to get to the end game.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Simond on September 20, 2008, 05:54:42 AM
So it's better than AoC and Hellgate then?
Your criterion for "fun" is "better than AoC and Hellgate"? It must be nice to be so easily pleased.  :awesome_for_real:


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Nebu on September 20, 2008, 08:11:35 AM
The game is quite fun if you enjoy pvp and you have others to play with. 

The game is marginally fun if you enjoy pvp and play alone.

The game gets old really fast if you don't like pvp.

If you like pve and playing solo, play WoW. 



Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Tarami on September 20, 2008, 08:24:32 AM
I know this will get me some flames, but to me, WAR is twice the game that Conan was in terms of plain craftsmanship.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Paelos on September 20, 2008, 09:14:14 AM
The game is quite fun if you enjoy pvp and you have others to play with. 

The game is marginally fun if you enjoy pvp and play alone.

The game gets old really fast if you don't like pvp.

If you like pve and playing solo, play WoW. 



This is almost word for word what I tell people about it.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Reg on September 20, 2008, 09:16:27 AM
So how long before this forum gets put in the graveyard? There should be a pool!


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: ffc on September 20, 2008, 10:41:10 AM
I like the PvE.  The quests give good rewards/experience, the public quests are great (fun battles, lottery loot + guaranteed rewards are a nice item distribution model), and running around questing can lead you to some cool stuff. 

For example,   Similarly, there is a  

Sure the game is WAR, WAR is everywhere!, WAAAGH!, and you are a sally if you do anything but queueueue for scenarios or take objectives, but the PvE stuff has good content that adds some flavor to typical fedex/kill 10 kangaroos quests.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: nurtsi on September 20, 2008, 11:12:15 AM
I've been playing for a day now trying few different classes (wasn't in any beta). It's seems pretty good so far, probably mostly because of novelty value. Things that annoy me are the animations (they look like shit) and the lack of feedback in combat. I usually have no clue if my spell/attack did anything. The only result is that a small dull grey number rises from the target that gets lost in the background graphics most of the time.

I've been only twiddling in the first zones for destruction and the lack of scenarios is pretty boring. I queue for PVP and there's more than an hour wait to get in. Not sure why that is, not enough players around my level anymore maybe...Hopefully Mythic will polish the game more in the future, but so far it seems pretty decent.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: rk47 on September 20, 2008, 12:03:44 PM
I'm missing some things I took for granted in WoW, these are the following features they somehow missed:
-Loot Linking on Chat is not in.
-No target marking I know of. For a PVP game they really need this, because random pick up group has no way to coordinate at all without ventrilo.



Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Cyrrex on September 20, 2008, 01:05:42 PM
What Nebu said seems to sum it up pretty nicely (haven't tried guild grouping, as I'm not in the guild yet). 

It also seem more....solid? polished?...than AoC.  The public quests and reward system looks like a really smart feature. 


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Ingmar on September 20, 2008, 01:15:32 PM
I'm missing some things I took for granted in WoW, these are the following features they somehow missed:
-Loot Linking on Chat is not in.
-No target marking I know of. For a PVP game they really need this, because random pick up group has no way to coordinate at all without ventrilo.



They can designate an assist and make macros. Note that WoW target marking doesn't work in PVP either. (Well it might work in BGs, but it definitely does not in arenas.)


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Venkman on September 20, 2008, 01:55:31 PM
So it's better than AoC and Hellgate then? Or should one wait a month before making such a judgement?

It's better than AoC if you liked WoW, and better than Hellgate. Wait a month though. The pace to the endgame was never really tested, so if you're not a 25+ hour a week'r, it might feel slow.

* queue the inevitable "just play to have fun and don't worry about leveling" responses*

At the same time, now is the best time to enjoy the frequent lower-level PQs and Scenario PvP. Because there's still a lot of other people around. In a month that may not be the case.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Fordel on September 20, 2008, 03:18:19 PM
I'm missing some things I took for granted in WoW, these are the following features they somehow missed:
-Loot Linking on Chat is not in.
-No target marking I know of. For a PVP game they really need this, because random pick up group has no way to coordinate at all without ventrilo.



They can designate an assist and make macros. Note that WoW target marking doesn't work in PVP either. (Well it might work in BGs, but it definitely does not in arenas.)

It works on friendlies, not enemies.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Arthur_Parker on September 20, 2008, 04:59:40 PM
I bought it because I was surprised how much I enjoyed the couple of days I had in the open beta.  Tonight we attacked a T2 keep somewhere, took it, then defended against what must have been over 100 Chaos players.  It was fairly intense.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: schild on September 20, 2008, 05:29:17 PM
We're doing something wrong with taking keeps.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Abelian75 on September 20, 2008, 06:52:51 PM
We got better.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: schild on September 20, 2008, 06:53:39 PM
Much.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Ingmar on September 20, 2008, 07:22:03 PM
We're doing something wrong with taking keeps.

The only thing we were doing wrong was attacking overpowered dark elf sorcerer lords.  :oh_i_see:


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Numtini on September 20, 2008, 07:28:52 PM
You need a game that sucks for a "this game sucks" thread. So far, I don't see that as applicable.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: stray on September 20, 2008, 08:12:33 PM
Impossible! It's an mmo.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: murdoc on September 20, 2008, 08:15:39 PM
You need a game that sucks for a "this game sucks" thread. So far, I don't see that as applicable.

I agree with this.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Reg on September 20, 2008, 11:32:39 PM
You guys are so cute in the first week of a new MMO.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Ironwood on September 21, 2008, 12:00:39 AM
 :awesome_for_real:


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Tannhauser on September 21, 2008, 05:19:15 AM
Troll us all you want, but we are the last line of defence against the hordes of Destruction.  How you gonna type snarky comments when a Mutant turns your hand into a flipper?

HUH MUTHERFUCKER?

/been playing too much


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: UnSub on September 21, 2008, 06:04:37 AM
Troll us all you want, but we are the last line of defence against the hordes of Destruction.  How you gonna type snarky comments when a Mutant turns your hand into a flipper?

HUH MUTHERFUCKER?

/been playing too much

I'll use the new hand growing out of my stomach.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: ShenMolo on September 21, 2008, 12:27:05 PM
Unlike AOC, I haven't run into a nasty bug or glitch at all.

There is some rubber banding with mobs and some stuck-in-walls stuff, but not much. Its very well done from a build standpoint, imho.

Also, replayability looks great, unlike Turdtula Island or whatever in AOC.

I like it so far.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on September 21, 2008, 01:22:57 PM
Well it's ok, I'm feeling the grind at level 15 though.

Couple things

~performance issues, way worse than aoc, it's alright on the low settings but my should certainly be able to make it look nicer.

~scenario's, they really need to make cross server scenario's. Getting one to pop for destruction on a fairly low pop server is an exercise in futility.

All in all though I'm enjoying it but the question is how much will I when the newness of it runs out, dunno.





Also, I just got my first gold spam tell today  :awesome_for_real:


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Kail on September 21, 2008, 01:58:39 PM
Personally, I'm really loving it.  The thing that's bugging me (and will get me to cancel if it's not fixed) are technical issues.  Game runs choppy as hell when the screen is packed and I get a lot of misreporting of player positions (which is CRUCIAL for a tank).  Turning the settings to low doesn't seem to help much (doesn't seem to hurt much, either, the game looks almost identical save that the buildings aren't as dark and the armor isn't as shiny).  If that improved, I'd love this game.

Got a few crashes to deskop. My house has been some kind of wierd confluence of fucked up problems, too.  Playing on friday, game crashes to desktop twice, I lose my internet twice briefly, then I got a freaking power outage.  I realize Mythic can't be held responsible for power outages and the like, but having to sit through the unskippable opening movies and click past that stupid EULA and re-set my graphics settings (they don't save? WTF is this?!) five times in about as many hours really highlights a lot of user inconvenience which could have been removed.

But in general, when it works, I love this game.  Things like Public Quests and repeatable Battleground Scenario quests make a ton of difference.  I hope WoW is taking notes, this is how PvP should work, dammit.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Register on September 21, 2008, 08:08:08 PM
The game runs choppy on my Core2D 2GB RAM Geforce 8800 rig. Tried toning down settings, but it still stutters when you go into heavily populated zones - bad.

The UI drives me nuts, especially the chat box - I can't display both chat and combat messages at the same time, and you can hover your pointer over the chat tabs but frequently the tab just won't appear - bad. Also not easy to move the chat box - you need to know where precisely to click or it ain't moving. No swap back to default option on the chatbox in the event you screw up either.

Combat / animation lag - it's been reported so far, it's there and it's irritating - you cast a spell and you are not sure its been cast or not and you spam buttons, you chain melee moves and are told the move is not ready etc. It's fine and dandy when you are doing PVE grinding, but in PVP everything falls apart because everything is fast and furious and you need to know if your action fired off correctly.

Leveling speed is somewhat too slow it seems. Features like auctions and mailboxes are not easily found/accessible at lower levels. I get heaps of drops I can't use, and I can't find an AH to sell it; bag space is also limited, and have no idea how to increase the bag space or find a banker to put items either.

Scenarios currently allow players to join at level 1, and bumps them up a few token levels up in Core servers. It doesn't make any diff because a level 1-4 player simply does not have enough stats/skills make any significant difference vs someone entering the scenario at rank 7+. It's bloody irritating to lose because more than half of your side is woefully underleveled. Either close the level gap for scenarios or bump the lower chars more so that they can make a diff.

Overall, I'm disappointed in the game. Alot of the above are tolerable, but the bits about the game running choppy on a decent rig, and the animation/action lags and the crappy chat UI is leaving a really bad taste in the mouth. At this rate, I'm unlikely continue after the free month runs out.  :heartbreak:




Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: schild on September 21, 2008, 09:03:15 PM
Quote
The UI drives me nuts, especially the chat box - I can't display both chat and combat messages at the same time, and you can hover your pointer over the chat tabs but frequently the tab just won't appear - bad. Also not easy to move the chat box - you need to know where precisely to click or it ain't moving. No swap back to default option on the chatbox in the event you screw up either.

You can set it to show whatever you want. Right Click Tab -> Tab Options -> Filter.

Quote
Leveling speed is somewhat too slow it seems. Features like auctions and mailboxes are not easily found/accessible at lower levels. I get heaps of drops I can't use, and I can't find an AH to sell it; bag space is also limited, and have no idea how to increase the bag space or find a banker to put items either.

This is due to a lack of knowledge about the game.

Quote
Scenarios currently allow players to join at level 1, and bumps them up a few token levels up in Core servers. It doesn't make any diff because a level 1-4 player simply does not have enough stats/skills make any significant difference vs someone entering the scenario at rank 7+. It's bloody irritating to lose because more than half of your side is woefully underleveled. Either close the level gap for scenarios or bump the lower chars more so that they can make a diff.

You're either not grouping with anyone, grouping with useless people, or just bad. Take your pick.

Quote
Overall, I'm disappointed in the game. Alot of the above are tolerable, but the bits about the game running choppy on a decent rig, and the animation/action lags and the crappy chat UI is leaving a really bad taste in the mouth. At this rate, I'm unlikely continue after the free month runs out.  Heartbreak

Combat lag is a slight problem, not bad on a  healer/almost none. You can get used to it on a melee class, my shadow warrior has almost none.

I do not know why your game is choppy. What speed is your C2D? Also, 2GB Ram? Running XP32 I assume?

Just saying. There's lots of shit to complain about, but it's nothing like AoC and you need to group with better people. A group of non's friends and Rattran and I were grouping up at level 1 and raping face because we're uhhhhh good?


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: stray on September 21, 2008, 09:04:17 PM
Honestly, I wrote this game off long before release because of the animations. Just seemed bad... Like indie bad.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: photek on September 21, 2008, 10:25:16 PM
Honestly, I wrote this game off long before release because of the animations. Just seemed bad... Like indie bad.

They are very bad, me having worked with animations doesn't exactly help the case. I never really liked Warhammer Online ever since I joined the beta back in May 07, but I guess that's just me. Combat has always been sluggish, sure its somewhat better now, but the animation and combat system just killed it for me. Not enough diversity and its just boring to play and it feels premade. Though I want them to do good and seems lots of people like it, which is great, but as my friend said while asking him what he thought : "Dude, WAR makes WoW interesting again". Couldn't have said it better myself.

I think I'll stop applying for betas and start enjoying "finished" products instead, if there is such a thing in MMOs.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: schild on September 21, 2008, 10:37:44 PM
Quote
I think I'll stop applying for betas and start enjoying "finished" products instead

I get into _every_ beta very early, and this ^^

I don't play beta anymore. It's mostly just bad marketing.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Register on September 21, 2008, 11:10:38 PM
Quote
You can set it to show whatever you want. Right Click Tab -> Tab Options -> Filter.

I know I can customize what the tab shows. But I like to have two tabs - one to show conversations, one for combat messages. It don't seem to be doable in warhammer, and it doesn't have a quick reset to default if you screw the things up.

Quote
This is due to a lack of knowledge about the game.

One can certainly get about much better if one is familiar with the game and the zones, but my point is that the design in some aspects are not quite as user friendly as it could be.

Having said that, the tome of knowledge / zone maps are nice. It's just that that the rest of the design is not quite as good.

Quote
You're either not grouping with anyone, grouping with useless people, or just bad. Take your pick.

It does not change the fact that lower levels are much much underpowered vs someone 5 ranks higher - much more than the current bloster buff can add. If we compare apples vs apples, a premade group of rank 1s vs a premade group of rank 7+ will have their ass handed over to them in seconds, just as a group of skilled rank 7+ will eat a equally skilled group of rank 1s.

Quote
Combat lag is a slight problem, not bad on a  healer/almost none. You can get used to it on a melee class, my shadow warrior has almost none.

I find the lag an issue on my healer because I end up over spamming heals on people being beat upon - you tend to spam when you are not sure if the heal is being fired off, and the hp of your teammate is dropping from focus fire. End result - loss of much action points to over spamming.

Quote
I do not know why your game is choppy. What speed is your C2D? Also, 2GB Ram? Running XP32 I assume?

Just saying. There's lots of shit to complain about, but it's nothing like AoC and you need to group with better people. A group of non's friends and Rattran and I were grouping up at level 1 and raping face because we're uhhhhh good?

Not sure of the processor speeds, but yea its 2GB RAM on XP pro 32 bit.

The losing in pvp part does not irk me as much as its because your side have too many rank 1s joining in as solo - just like the level 61-64s joining the 61-70 AV bgs in WOW.

But game breaking issues with me is how the game stutters, how action/animation lags, and how I generally hate the War UI.






Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: schild on September 22, 2008, 12:05:34 AM
Quote
I know I can customize what the tab shows. But I like to have two tabs - one to show conversations, one for combat messages. It don't seem to be doable in warhammer, and it doesn't have a quick reset to default if you screw the things up.

That's how it is by default :awesome_for_real:


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Paelos on September 22, 2008, 12:06:19 AM
The game is clunky. I will say that with no stretches. However, I expect the clunkiness to improve itself as the game matures, and I will forgive a bit of polish for more content. WoW took the polish>speed things waaaaaaay too far for me. I will play both, but they will serve completely different needs.

WoW needs to steal WAR's ideas immediately in regards to their mapping. A lot of MMOG players don't like finding quest mobs in an entire zone or reading directions. They like big flashy signs that point you at shit. The WAR map is probably the best improvement I've seen in the questing system of these types of games.

Also, the classes work. Tanks and healer combos are powerful in many situations. Ranged can nuke the crap out of stuff and have good stuns, but they don't root and destroy like other versions I've played in the past. Melee is viable in many situations. Healing is probably overpowered, but that's fine given what it takes to get ppl rolling healers.

Overall, it's not a polished game at all. If ppl were looking for a PvE, soloing experience, I have no idea why they even bothered leaving WoW to look. If they were looking for group PvP with friends and others, this is going to be much better than the system WoW tried to shoehorn in after release.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Ragnoros on September 22, 2008, 12:09:09 AM
They REALLY REALLY need the fix the low level scenarios. I have been playing for almost ten hours today. I have won O N E scenario in that time.

Every game the order side has a level advantage. And as has been stated. A level 3 boosted to 8 has no hope against a real level 8-11 player.

Mind you I'm just pubbing because I am a masochist and don't want to play order with Bat Country, but this is stupid.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: schild on September 22, 2008, 12:17:26 AM
You should really play Order with Bat Country. Six organized people on vent can make all the difference in the world, particularly with healers.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Wasted on September 22, 2008, 01:08:22 AM
Its a team focused game that will weed out all the inveterate soloers pretty quickly.  That pug scenario teams will be steamrolled constantly vs premades will be one of the main things limiting the appeal of this game.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Register on September 22, 2008, 01:14:04 AM
Quote
I know I can customize what the tab shows. But I like to have two tabs - one to show conversations, one for combat messages. It don't seem to be doable in warhammer, and it doesn't have a quick reset to default if you screw the things up.

That's how it is by default :awesome_for_real:

I mean both tabs visible at the same time...

What I see in my War chat box is one tab for chat, one tab for combat messages - you have to choose between them. Alternatively you can display everything on a tab, but it will scroll insanely and you will have to constantly scroll back to read.

In Wow I just drag out the combat messages so I have 2 windows. Is there a way to do this in War?


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Wasted on September 22, 2008, 01:16:08 AM
Quote
I know I can customize what the tab shows. But I like to have two tabs - one to show conversations, one for combat messages. It don't seem to be doable in warhammer, and it doesn't have a quick reset to default if you screw the things up.

That's how it is by default :awesome_for_real:

I mean both tabs visible at the same time...

What I see in my War chat box is one tab for chat, one tab for combat messages - you have to choose between them. Alternatively you can display everything on a tab, but it will scroll insanely and you will have to constantly scroll back to read.

In Wow I just drag out the combat messages so I have 2 windows. Is there a way to do this in War?


Yeah you click on the tab and drag it to where you want the window.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Register on September 22, 2008, 01:23:50 AM
Its a team focused game that will weed out all the inveterate soloers pretty quickly.  That pug scenario teams will be steamrolled constantly vs premades will be one of the main things limiting the appeal of this game.

That's pretty much my experience in DAOC - if you don't have a balanced regular RVR team you pretty much give up as you will get steamrolled most of the time. Or you could be playing the stealther's mini game - but that's another story.

Either you have the full team with buffs, heals, CC and dps or you are going to be fodder. And War could be shaping up to be the same thing again. /shrug.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Register on September 22, 2008, 01:25:16 AM
Quote
Yeah you click on the tab and drag it to where you want the window.

Hrm... I could have sworn I did that and it did not work.  :ye_gods:

Well, will try that when I am back home.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Fordel on September 22, 2008, 01:27:07 AM
"Solo'ers" should be latching onto the Zerg. That's what the Zerg is for!




Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: schild on September 22, 2008, 01:31:29 AM
We've got some zerg guilds on our server. Or The Six Mouths, which isn't quite a zerg, more like a byproduct of being huge, they're good at 12v12 also.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Kirth on September 22, 2008, 02:19:47 AM
Quote
Yeah you click on the tab and drag it to where you want the window.

Hrm... I could have sworn I did that and it did not work.  :ye_gods:

Well, will try that when I am back home.


Heres where I would post a SS of my UI except none of the Image Hosting sites are working this morning. It can be done, modifying the UI to the way I like it took maybe 10 minutes.



Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: schild on September 22, 2008, 02:29:28 AM
Dropbox, pal!


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: rk47 on September 22, 2008, 06:18:20 AM
To address some pvp concerns of how 10 v 10 isn't really 'fair' to you guys.
Well what do you expect? You cannot possibly blame Mythic for that. The only problem I see on later tiers is that the power scale on each class differs, hence you'll see certain classes wtfpwning at certain levels while others take a longer time to mature. I hope the devs can rebalance it a bit. I try not to feel too down with 10 v 10s.

If you find a scenario sucking badly, try to scream, beg, plead and communicate. I was soloing Nordenwatch on my Swordmaster before Rattran manage to invite me to Bat Country and the whole time I just screamed at everyone to take Lighthouse, take the Fortress and hold it there. Ignore everything else, have one guy cap the lighthouse and the other 9 charge for Fort. if we lose the fort flag, pull back and regroup in between Lighthouse & Barracks. When some Chaos start attacking the Lighthouse, make a mad charge with 5-6 other people for the Fort flag which is hopefully undefended. Hold the flag for points. The more points you get, the more EXP you receive. You just gotta accept that sort of simple 'zerging' is the only way to win a 'random' Nordenwatch with pick up groups.

If you find the above is not what you envision to be, go back to Battlefield or Counterstrike or find a guild that grp for PvP.
It works both ways you know, you could be the pre-made while facing a bunch of lv 3-5s in scenarios and vice versa.



Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Falconeer on September 22, 2008, 07:42:53 AM
I won't go that deep into it, but I am seriously shocked people here is liking Warhammer so much.

I am tempted to say it'll wear off soon, but I said the same thing for World of Warcraft 4 years ago, so boo me.

This is an ok game with lots of quick and juicy features, and charming colours. Its longevity has yet to be proved. I am surprised it shaked the jadedness off so many of you though.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Tmon on September 22, 2008, 07:49:10 AM
I love that I didn't have to "earn" the right to PVP by leveling up to some arbitrary level.  While my bolstered level one couldn't do much more than look around and die horribly, as I gained levels I started to be able to contribute more, and now that I've reached level 9 I'm actually doing serious amounts of damage and racking up good kill numbers.  It isn't perfect but it beats the hell out of pveing for a week or more just to earn the privilege of being PVP fodder.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Abelian75 on September 22, 2008, 07:58:58 AM
I like it a lot.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Draegan on September 22, 2008, 08:01:18 AM
Wrong Thread.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: schild on September 22, 2008, 08:03:17 AM
This thread is for bitches that can't enjoy fun while it lasts.

I'm not 17 years old anymore, I'll take the fun wherever I can get it these days. Just wish I could get some on the Wii. Thing is turning grey with dust.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Nebu on September 22, 2008, 08:08:30 AM
I won't go that deep into it, but I am seriously shocked people here is liking Warhammer so much.

I am tempted to say it'll wear off soon, but I said the same thing for World of Warcraft 4 years ago, so boo me.

This is an ok game with lots of quick and juicy features, and charming colours. Its longevity has yet to be proved. I am surprised it shaked the jadedness off so many of you though.

I happen to agree with you about longevity.  For now, the game is fun and accessible.  That's its strength.  It's easy to log on and do something fun.  I think that will be the draw.  

Will the "fun" still be fun in 6 months?  I don't know and think that I likely won't last that long.  It's not a deep game, but I must say that it is well worth the box cost even if you only play for the free month.  I think that most of us here have seen/done most of what there is to do in an online game and we won't last.  The truth is that it IS fun now.  That's a bargain for my $50.  


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Tarami on September 22, 2008, 08:38:05 AM
I won't go that deep into it, but I am seriously shocked people here is liking Warhammer so much.

I am tempted to say it'll wear off soon, but I said the same thing for World of Warcraft 4 years ago, so boo me.

This is an ok game with lots of quick and juicy features, and charming colours. Its longevity has yet to be proved. I am surprised it shaked the jadedness off so many of you though.

I happen to agree with you about longevity.  For now, the game is fun and accessible.  That's its strength.  It's easy to log on and do something fun.  I think that will be the draw. 

Will the "fun" still be fun in 6 months?  I don't know and think that I likely won't last that long.  It's not a deep game, but I must say that it is well worth the box cost even if you only play for the free month.  I think that most of us here have seen/done most of what there is to do in an online game and we won't last.  The truth is that it IS fun now.  That's a bargain for my $50. 
Here we are again, discussing depth of a game that hasn't been out the door four days. :wink: While I sort of agree and am concerned about the future renewal of players, I do wonder why this is said. It's not like games which have proven to have enormous stickiness appear any better at a glance - heroic dungeon/raid grind and BGs (and just a few of them) (I don't think the crafting is keeping anyone attached) don't exactly seem to have the longevity that would be required to keep people invested. But still it does, somehow.



Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: AcidCat on September 22, 2008, 08:55:24 AM
There is nothing really bad enough about this game to trash it, so I don't think you'll find a lot of negativity on the interwebs. For me there just wasn't enough about it that was better or different to make me switch from WoW. But I think for those who didn't care for it or weren't interested it's more of a "meh and move on" than any active hatred.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Arthur_Parker on September 22, 2008, 09:05:00 AM
I think it's great. I already know I'll be hitting max level, I haven't enjoyed an online game as much since COD2.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Merusk on September 22, 2008, 09:06:23 AM
There is nothing really bad enough about this game to trash it, so I don't think you'll find a lot of negativity on the interwebs. For me there just wasn't enough about it that was better or different to make me switch from WoW. But I think for those who didn't care for it or weren't interested it's more of a "meh and move on" than any active hatred.

Ultimately this is how I feel.  I've got an unopened CE on my desk.  I'm thinking of returning it or e-baying it instead of cracking it open. The game's loads of fun with other people, but only "meh" otherwise.  I can't see the PVP keeping anyone's interest more than the lastest FPS shooter or other coop game of the week.  It's not bad, but it's not fantastic.. so I'll stick with the one I'm already with.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Falconeer on September 22, 2008, 09:06:28 AM
Yes Nebu, I agree with you.
To me 15 days of fun are well worth my 50 bucks so who cares?

It's just that there's lot of positivity here and that kinda surprises me. You can enjoy the game (the way I am doing, and you, and many others) without ignoring the mediocrity of a game.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Nebu on September 22, 2008, 09:25:18 AM
Here we are again, discussing depth of a game that hasn't been out the door four days. :wink:

Some of us have been playing this game for months prior to release.  :wink:


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Abelian75 on September 22, 2008, 09:25:36 AM
I don't really feel that it's mediocre.  I mean, I guess that's all relative to your expectations, but I definitely feel that it's the most solid post-WoW MMO, by far.  Course I don't think WoW is mediocre either, and lots do, so your mileage may vary.

(that said, I'm not saying it's robot jesus or anything.  I like it a lot, but I wouldn't say I'm quite at the holy-shit-overwhelmed stage yet.)


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Nebu on September 22, 2008, 09:27:42 AM
You can enjoy the game (the way I am doing, and you, and many others) without ignoring the mediocrity of a game.

You stated WoW as an example of this.  WoW (in my opinion) is a prime example of polished mediocrity.  It's making money hats.  If a game is viscerally fun, it's easy to overlook other aspects.  In WAR's case, I can tolerate the imbalance and frequent ctd's due to the fun factor. 


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Rasix on September 22, 2008, 09:45:40 AM
I'm not sure this game will grab me or that I'll be able to give it the same attention I've given other games.  There are a lot of secondary factors including the fact that I just got a PS3 for my birthday, and I have less time to game due to work issues.  MMOs don't work well in my past experience for someone that plays very sporadically. Primarily though, I may not be the target audience or in a weird time situation that places me outside of it.

I've started a week late ( :awesome_for_real: I know) and I only play around 10pm PST.  I've noticed a major lack of participation in lower level PQs and scenarios at this time frame.  At the dwarf/greenskin chapter 2/3 PQs there wasn't a single person doing them.  Perhaps things will get better when I can catch up a bit in levels, but I'm not sure I'm going to be able to.  The ghost town aspect I've been seeing at low levels when I'm playing isn't going to help me catch up.

Only really major issues I've had with the game are some lag and slow downs during scenarios when folks get packed together.  This could get really nasty in RVR I imagine.  I really haven't fiddled with my video options at all. 

I do have concerns.  One major concern being the feeling that this game is currently balanced for shit, but I don't know how this is going to play out at higher levels. Right now, however, it appears to be the typical Mythic clownshoes attempt at balance that I got to hear my friends bitch about for years.  I know I need to give it more time, but some stuff I'm seeing is disheartening.

Anyhow, still getting the hang of this game.  I'll have more complaints once I can actually dig in (if I can).  A game's problems present themselves over time and I haven't put much time in since a about a month or two before release. 



Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Falconeer on September 22, 2008, 09:47:14 AM
"Mediocre" is a bit too much. I take it back.

Let's just say that I think Warhammer plays very much like WoW, looks very much like WoW but WoW is essentially more viscerally fun. Maybe a better overall game too. And it was launched in 2004.

The gameplay is incredibly stale, ten years old now, and that doesn't apply just to Vanguard or LotRO. Warhammer is not immune.
 
The "pluses" for Warhammer are Public Quests (definitely neat!) and insta-arena vanilla pvp. Save for that, I'd probably take WoW (which I played and enjoyed for roughly 40 levels on launch-month) over this. Hence my surprise: not for the fun, but for the general lack of criticism.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: schild on September 22, 2008, 09:49:00 AM
The quality of a game is 100% directly related to the quality of the community. If you're a member of f13 and can't enjoy playing with us, you're either doing it wrong or are broken. I don't really know what to tell you. I wouldn't play these games if it weren't for the people here.

Edit: I can't speak for WoW, couldn't get past the totally exaggerated art style. Fucking shoulderpads might've ruined Everything For Me.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Falconeer on September 22, 2008, 10:00:32 AM
If you are talking with me Schild, let me tell you that I am on the Warhammer bandwagon JUST BECAUSE I want to play with you all Bats and I am loving THAT part, much more than the game itself.

So yes, I agree with you.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: schild on September 22, 2008, 10:20:23 AM
Yes, I was talking to you.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Simond on September 22, 2008, 10:41:25 AM
Its a team focused game that will weed out all the inveterate soloers pretty quickly.
So...the majority of the playerbase will be 'weeded out', then? What an awesome design.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Draegan on September 22, 2008, 11:37:12 AM
I think he's talking about people who refuse to play in a group on purpose.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Sjofn on September 22, 2008, 03:27:40 PM
One thing I really have to hand to Mythic is that both games I've played of theirs manage to turn me from a tree hugging, if foul mouthed, carebear to a tree hugging, if foul mouthed, bitch of a PvPer. Any other MMO I've played besides WAR and DAoC, I might dabble in the PvP a little, but it is never, ever my focus. In both DAoC and WAR, I'm all RARGH KILL THOSE MOTHER FUCKERS.

I think part of it is both games have opposing team classes I hate SO MUCH I will do anything, ANYTHING to kill them.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: jlwilli5 on September 22, 2008, 03:51:10 PM
  I stopped worrying about why a game was fun or not years ago. 
  Saying that, a social group does make a game much more enjoyable.
  Sure I like to play with myself, but it starts to chafe after awhile.

 


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Simond on September 22, 2008, 04:32:40 PM
I think he's talking about people who refuse to play in a group on purpose.
So...the majority of the playerbase will be 'weeded out', then? What an awesome design.  :awesome_for_real:


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Righ on September 22, 2008, 04:37:54 PM
  Sure I like to play with myself, but it starts to chafe after awhile.

Use lotion.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Wasted on September 22, 2008, 04:46:55 PM
  I stopped worrying about why a game was fun or not years ago. 
  Saying that, a social group does make a game much more enjoyable.
  Sure I like to play with myself, but it starts to chafe after awhile.

 

It was playing with rl friends that has kept me in wow three years longer than I would normally play a game.  War knows it, thats why they have the open party system and public quests to keep putting people together.  It makes it amazing to me that while they realise this, as far as I can see there is no guild recruitment feature in game (They need to steal something like the eq2 one quickly), and no centralised forums for people to search for guilds as well.

Zone chat is absolutely dead in this game as well, no-one is talking.  There has been no banter in the open parties and pq/scenario groups either.  As social a game as this is people are coming in with their preorganised groups already, getting all their communication through vent/ts and guild chat and ignoring anyone they don't know - those that come in solo I think will have find it hard to find a place in a good guild.  I am seeing a lot of unguilded people still. Even Aoc had a lot more communication going on in the early days.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Hayduke on September 22, 2008, 06:16:59 PM
Zone chat is absolutely dead in this game as well, no-one is talking.  There has been no banter in the open parties and pq/scenario groups either.  As social a game as this is people are coming in with their preorganised groups already, getting all their communication through vent/ts and guild chat and ignoring anyone they don't know - those that come in solo I think will have find it hard to find a place in a good guild.  I am seeing a lot of unguilded people still. Even Aoc had a lot more communication going on in the early days.


I really hope that's not the case or it evens out in a couple months.  I've been out of the MMO loop for a few years so I don't have any connections to my ex-guildies.  If I joined WAR it'd be a totally fresh start.  Hearing stuff like this combined with the game being very focused on needing a large balanced playerbase to make use of most of the content makes me worry.  I recognize that EQ was just a glorified chat client, but at least all the downtime gave you a chance to communicate with others.  These new MMOs all seem to focus on pressing a repetitive series of buttons to add busy work, but it leaves no time to socialize.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Nija on September 22, 2008, 06:43:09 PM
I'm not sure this game will grab me or that I'll be able to give it the same attention I've given other games. 

Play with us on Hochland Destruction.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Threash on September 22, 2008, 08:13:38 PM
WoW needs to steal WAR's ideas immediately in regards to their mapping. A lot of MMOG players don't like finding quest mobs in an entire zone or reading directions. They like big flashy signs that point you at shit. The WAR map is probably the best improvement I've seen in the questing system of these types of games.


Warhammers quest mapping looks like a really half assed version of AoCs, after you grab more than 3-4 quests it becomes pretty much completely useless.  The aoc system was much better, it put an X on single targets and a circle only when you needed to kills mobs in an area, not to mention quest turn ins were marked differently than quest targets.  I hate WARs system, its just a useless blob of red.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Draegan on September 22, 2008, 08:15:20 PM
I think he's talking about people who refuse to play in a group on purpose.
So...the majority of the playerbase will be 'weeded out', then? What an awesome design.  :awesome_for_real:

No.  I'm talking about people who purposely avoid others.  People who refuse to do PQs.  People who try to PVP by themselves and not try to take keeps with others, or participate in scenarios.  The game does a very good job bringing people together.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: trias_e on September 22, 2008, 08:24:14 PM
Quote


Warhammers quest mapping looks like a really half assed version of AoCs, after you grab more than 3-4 quests it becomes pretty much completely useless.  The aoc system was much better, it put an X on single targets and a circle only when you needed to kills mobs in an area, not to mention quest turn ins were marked differently than quest targets.  I hate WARs system, its just a useless blob of red.

Oh for fucks sake.   How about we just get teleported instantly to any quest objective so we don't have to search for anything at all!


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Threash on September 22, 2008, 08:32:39 PM
If you are going to have quest markers then the least you can do is make them useful.  I disagree with wow needing them, their quest descriptions are more than accurate enough.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: stray on September 22, 2008, 09:14:11 PM
Quote


Warhammers quest mapping looks like a really half assed version of AoCs, after you grab more than 3-4 quests it becomes pretty much completely useless.  The aoc system was much better, it put an X on single targets and a circle only when you needed to kills mobs in an area, not to mention quest turn ins were marked differently than quest targets.  I hate WARs system, its just a useless blob of red.

Oh for fucks sake.   How about we just get teleported instantly to any quest objective so we don't have to search for anything at all!

Not to derail too much, but that's something I don't see discussed enough. It's always easier to orientate one's self with a new area in the real world, but in mmo's, I tend to get a "lost in a parking lot" problem a lot. These world's just aren't rich enough with landmarks and such to just know what you're doing on the first or second or third try (sometimes much more). Quest indicators be a good thing. Also, running is boring and a huge waste of time. Teleportation would be nice sometimes...

[edit] Although... it'd be nice if you got rewarded for that "searching". If it's trumped up like some big staple of MMO's, to waste valuable time searching through pixels, then that should be a big route for gaining xp too. But no, you really don't get shit for it. You get rewarded with the unfun camp of stupid mobs you were searching for -- and even after killing mobs, the xp or the insulting quest reward you got from all of that shit definitely didn't make it worth your time. You're left with a few copper pieces and a shitty cloak that won't last you two levels, and barely a dent on your xp bar. Rinse, repeat.

/rantoff

Just another reason why these games are crappy... And why I don't believe a goddamn "good" thing anyone has to say about this game, or any other. You're all insane. This shit's probably more unfulfilling than a minimum wage job. Same as it ever was.

/second rantoff  :why_so_serious:


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Triforcer on September 22, 2008, 09:39:29 PM
If you are going to have quest markers then the least you can do is make them useful.  I disagree with wow needing them, their quest descriptions are more than accurate enough.

This bereaved gentleman begs to disagree. 

(http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/wowwiki/images/thumb/f/fb/Mankrik.jpg/200px-Mankrik.jpg)


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on September 22, 2008, 10:05:18 PM
If you are going to have quest markers then the least you can do is make them useful.  I disagree with wow needing them, their quest descriptions are more than accurate enough.

This bereaved gentleman begs to disagree. 

(http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/wowwiki/images/thumb/f/fb/Mankrik.jpg/200px-Mankrik.jpg)

points for mankirk reference. his wife is in black temple i hear.

Though that was also four years ago, wow has changed and gotten much better with quest descriptions and while I'm unsure of the exact reason, I've never had issues with wow quests never pointing exactly where I need to go.  I couldn't imagine warhammer without marking their quests though because there are just so many that you really do them on auto pilot.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: rattran on September 22, 2008, 11:45:22 PM
I do like that the WAR quests tend to give good/great xp, have a bit of a story, and rewards that more often or not I use.


And the titles you get from random exploring are neat


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: stray on September 22, 2008, 11:53:25 PM
Yay titles. They didn't work for me in CoH either.

Not trying to be an ass, but that's like one of the most insulting incentives to play a game, in my mind. Yet, it somehow works for many other people.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Xeyi on September 23, 2008, 01:38:54 AM
The game was a lot of fun, but I'm another one whose guild is staying in Wow and so I will be too.  From my perspective WAR doesn't quite offer enough that's different from WoW for me to play both.

What it does do differently to WoW is the easy access to pvp content right from the off, but I cant help but feel if that's alll I want from the game then I'd be better off playing TF2 rather than subbing for a second MMO.

Nothing (majorly) wrong with WAR, guess I'm just not part of the target demographic.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: lamaros on September 23, 2008, 01:57:57 AM
I think he's talking about people who refuse to play in a group on purpose.
So...the majority of the playerbase will be 'weeded out', then? What an awesome design.  :awesome_for_real:

No.  I'm talking about people who purposely avoid others.  People who refuse to do PQs.  People who try to PVP by themselves and not try to take keeps with others, or participate in scenarios.  The game does a very good job bringing people together.
So...the majority of the playerbase will be 'weeded out', then? What an awesome design.  :awesome_for_real:


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Sjofn on September 23, 2008, 02:40:03 AM
If you are going to have quest markers then the least you can do is make them useful.  I disagree with wow needing them, their quest descriptions are more than accurate enough.

This bereaved gentleman begs to disagree. 

(http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/wowwiki/images/thumb/f/fb/Mankrik.jpg/200px-Mankrik.jpg)

I laughed, if that makes you happy.

Although as my very first Horde person was a tauren, I actually found his wife and thought, "Who the fuck is Mankrik?"


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: schild on September 23, 2008, 02:47:57 AM
Yay titles. They didn't work for me in CoH either.

Not trying to be an ass, but that's like one of the most insulting incentives to play a game, in my mind. Yet, it somehow works for many other people.

The titles here are achievement based. The Tome of Knowledge really is a neat neat thing. I don't know why I'm talking to you about an MMOG, you don't even play these fuckers. How did you wander in here? Did you get lost? (I'm not trying to defend WAR here, I'm just flat out saying, I think the last MMOG you played was WoW and it was like for a month and you haven't played another one for years if I'm not mistaken - which I probably am in this case).


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: stray on September 23, 2008, 03:40:55 AM
Well, I did try AoC for a second, but my machine sucks (obviously... you made the grief title).

But yeah, you'd be right.... I just made this thread wondering if I looked over something particularly interesting. From the sound of it, it seems like business as usual.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Falconeer on September 23, 2008, 03:57:42 AM
Well the game doesn't really suck, but Al Jourgensen rocks.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Draegan on September 23, 2008, 08:25:27 AM
I think he's talking about people who refuse to play in a group on purpose.
So...the majority of the playerbase will be 'weeded out', then? What an awesome design.  :awesome_for_real:

No.  I'm talking about people who purposely avoid others.  People who refuse to do PQs.  People who try to PVP by themselves and not try to take keeps with others, or participate in scenarios.  The game does a very good job bringing people together.
So...the majority of the playerbase will be 'weeded out', then? What an awesome design.  :awesome_for_real:

Yes.  If you don't group it's worse than Everquest in my opinion.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Slayerik on September 23, 2008, 11:08:23 AM
Still have an itch to try this game. I'm still butthurt from AoC.

The comments that really keep me away are the 'yeah its really similar to WoW' kinda stuff. And I mean, obviously it is. Two sides. One with ebil orcs and shit. The other with elves and dwarves and shit. They hate each other and WAR it up.

The other red flags to me are a lack of responsiveness in PVP. This is a PVP game, should that not be one of the top things to get right before launch? I'll be lurking this thread to see after the one month mark how everyone feels.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: schild on September 23, 2008, 11:10:36 AM
It's not a lack of responsiveness in PVP. Or at least, it's not for me. It's a lack of response in animations vs skill bar. Which the brain compensates for in the first few hours of play.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Ingmar on September 23, 2008, 11:16:49 AM
It's not a lack of responsiveness in PVP. Or at least, it's not for me. It's a lack of response in animations vs skill bar. Which the brain compensates for in the first few hours of play.

Yeah, this. There's a weird disconnect there but the timing is actually pretty spot-on if you can ignore what your guy looks like he's doing. It is something they need to fix, but at least it is fixable.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: eldaec on September 23, 2008, 11:19:52 AM
I think he's talking about people who refuse to play in a group on purpose.
So...the majority of the playerbase will be 'weeded out', then? What an awesome design.  :awesome_for_real:

No.  I'm talking about people who purposely avoid others.  People who refuse to do PQs.  People who try to PVP by themselves and not try to take keeps with others, or participate in scenarios.  The game does a very good job bringing people together.
So...the majority of the playerbase will be 'weeded out', then? What an awesome design.  :awesome_for_real:

Yes.  If you don't group it's worse than Everquest in my opinion.

Isn't this whole discussion like saying that Team Fortress is badly designed because...

1) More players want to play solo than in teams.
2) More players want to play in castles than in fortresses.
3) More players like Sims games than shooting games.


Just like daoc, war is a group based game. Lots of people get will weeded out because war isn't the type of game they thought it was. Happens all the damn time in every genre.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Mrbloodworth on September 23, 2008, 11:21:49 AM
If you are going to have quest markers then the least you can do is make them useful.  I disagree with wow needing them, their quest descriptions are more than accurate enough.

Yeah, who needs Tom tom (http://www.wowinterface.com/downloads/info7032-TomTom.html)  :roll:


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Lum on September 23, 2008, 11:38:04 AM
It does not change the fact that lower levels are much much underpowered vs someone 5 ranks higher - much more than the current bloster buff can add. If we compare apples vs apples, a premade group of rank 1s vs a premade group of rank 7+ will have their ass handed over to them in seconds, just as a group of skilled rank 7+ will eat a equally skilled group of rank 1s.

Yes, but I was able to score near the top of the DPS list in the scenarios as a level 1 Bright Wizard. You don't get all your tools, but you get enough not to be a complete waste of space.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Lum on September 23, 2008, 11:41:41 AM
Yay titles. They didn't work for me in CoH either.

Not trying to be an ass, but that's like one of the most insulting incentives to play a game, in my mind. Yet, it somehow works for many other people.

My Dark Elf spent a solid half hour jumping off cliffs so I could get the AHHHHHHHHHHHH title. Some titles are better than others.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: HaemishM on September 23, 2008, 11:48:45 AM
It does not change the fact that lower levels are much much underpowered vs someone 5 ranks higher - much more than the current bloster buff can add. If we compare apples vs apples, a premade group of rank 1s vs a premade group of rank 7+ will have their ass handed over to them in seconds, just as a group of skilled rank 7+ will eat a equally skilled group of rank 1s.

Yes, but I was able to score near the top of the DPS list in the scenarios as a level 1 Bright Wizard. You don't get all your tools, but you get enough not to be a complete waste of space.

This. I actually found myself doing quite well as a level 4-5 guy raised up to rank 8 in the Nordenwatch scenarios. I was actually doing better with that than I did with the Chaos Marauder in open beta.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Abelian75 on September 23, 2008, 02:29:31 PM
I really feel like the whole "this game has sucky PvE, don't play it for the PvE" thing is getting overblown.  I mean, yes, I have a hard time imagining someone enjoying it long-term if they absolutely do not like PvP.  Absolutely that's true.  But I have enjoyed the PvE game in addition to the PvP game.  It doesn't have the PvE depth of WoW, I guess (an assumption since I haven't done any dungeons, but I'm pretty sure it's a correct assumption), but there's still a lot to do, the PQ's are more varied and interesting than I would have expected, and the tome of knowledge adds a lot of fun for us lore geeks.

Obviously people are right that the game ultimately is about RvR, but I have really felt that the PvE aspects are more fun than I expected, and a lot more fun than many MMOs that ONLY really featured PvE.

Of course, if all that's meant by PvE is "raids," then yeah, I guess the PvE sucks ass.

Not trying to be argumentative for the sake of it, but I'd hate to see people turned away thinking that WAR is just full of half-assed PvE content, which I don't feel is the case at all.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on September 23, 2008, 02:41:11 PM
Warhammer doesn't suck, it's a good game with some great parts.

Overall though it's a just good game, not great.



Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: veredus on September 23, 2008, 02:48:52 PM
bunch of stuff about PvE

I agree completely. The PvE has been a lot better then I expected it to be. Add that to the PvP which has been a blast and I am really enjoying myself. The two go together very well I think.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Rasix on September 23, 2008, 02:49:02 PM
Not trying to be argumentative for the sake of it, but I'd hate to see people turned away thinking that WAR is just full of half-assed PvE content, which I don't feel is the case at all.

It may be a function of where people start.  The dwarf/greenskin starting PVE (more on the dwarven side, I haven't played greenskin in months) is just plain terrible. Quests are spread out, the XP rewards seemed poor, and there seemed to be perceptible gaps in progression.  Or perhaps the thing is just laid out so poorly this just seems to be the case. 

I played around with a bright wizard last night and it was noticeably different.  Quests were plentiful, gave good exp, and were logically laid out. Hell, the first area even had a scenario quest guy and renown merchants.  I know this is just a hiccup in the overall amount of time you're going to spend in the game, but the first impression (and that goes a long way) is significantly better.  I would continue to play the Empire PVE where as I've pretty much given up on the dwarven PVE and have been leveling 100% through scenarios.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: tazelbain on September 23, 2008, 02:50:37 PM
Warhammer doesn't suck, it's a good game with some great parts.

Overall though it's a just good game, not great.


I agree with this.  I don't any reason to believe the WAR couldn't be a great game if they don't sit on their hands like DAoC.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Abelian75 on September 23, 2008, 02:51:49 PM
Man, see, I really loved the dwarf content.  Maybe it's just cuz I like beer, I dunno.

I mean, there's a PQ that contains monsters called Beerthirstin' Squigs.  How can you NOT love that?

Edit:  Oh, you're right about the layout though.  Empire/chaos definitely seems the best in that the warcamps are right next to a chapter hub and make a natural bind point.  I do find myself running around awkwardly in the dwarf area a lot.  But I do like the actual content itself.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: veredus on September 23, 2008, 02:55:04 PM
In response to Raix

When I made my Witch Hunter I did wonder why the High Elf and Dwarf area didn't have a starter area like the Empire one, mailbox, renown merchants and all that jazz. Adding that stuff I would think would be farily easy for the Dwarf/High Elf areas. But I still enjoyed those areas.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Riggswolfe on September 23, 2008, 02:55:57 PM
Yay titles. They didn't work for me in CoH either.

Not trying to be an ass, but that's like one of the most insulting incentives to play a game, in my mind. Yet, it somehow works for many other people.

So I take it you don't like Achievements in Xbox 360 either? These are achievements and you get to display them!


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Sjofn on September 23, 2008, 02:59:28 PM
In response to Raix

When I made my Witch Hunter I did wonder why the High Elf and Dwarf area didn't have a starter area like the Empire one, mailbox, renown merchants and all that jazz. Adding that stuff I would think would be farily easy for the Dwarf/High Elf areas. But I still enjoyed those areas.

It has a mailbox right outside the tavern, does the dwarf area. The elf area is the only one screwed in that regard.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: veredus on September 23, 2008, 03:05:42 PM
That is good to know. Never even noticed it.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Sjofn on September 23, 2008, 03:06:39 PM
It does sort of blend in, I didn't know it was there until I pretty much tripped over it.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Arthur_Parker on September 23, 2008, 04:17:25 PM
Still have an itch to try this game. I'm still butthurt from AoC.

The comments that really keep me away are the 'yeah its really similar to WoW' kinda stuff. And I mean, obviously it is. Two sides. One with ebil orcs and shit. The other with elves and dwarves and shit. They hate each other and WAR it up.

The other red flags to me are a lack of responsiveness in PVP. This is a PVP game, should that not be one of the top things to get right before launch? I'll be lurking this thread to see after the one month mark how everyone feels.

My advice would be to try it now, the major problem I see long term is population at low levels.  If you play order at the minute you will get the low level scenarios to pop virtually instantly.

In open beta I leveled up to rank 5 just via pvp.  Even later on, pvp instance leveling is maybe even faster than doing quests.  I think WoW is a great game but not designed for me, items don't really interest me.  At level 17 in WAR I had already taken part in a massive keep siege, logged out went to bed, logged in about 10 hours later to find the same battle still going on.  Dropping burning oil on scum trying to break down your keep door is time well spent, plus you don't need special skills to use siege weapons, I was using cannons & hell blasters in the same battle.

I wanted a mount at level 20 asap, just for speed, so did quests this evening for a change.  I normally hate grouping for pve but tonight I got sucked into grouping for 3 public quests, just because I was doing normal quests in the same area, and finished them all.  I am in a large guild and I am running a high spec pc with Vista 64, so I luckily I don't get any performance issues at all.  I found WAR does gets slightly grindy in the teens so you have to visit the other two realms for quests unless you want to stick to instance pvp, but now at rank 20 I'm going to be into T3 soon and I'm a bit sad as I wanted to stay longer at the top end of T2 for pvp.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Register on September 23, 2008, 08:48:53 PM
It does not change the fact that lower levels are much much underpowered vs someone 5 ranks higher - much more than the current bloster buff can add. If we compare apples vs apples, a premade group of rank 1s vs a premade group of rank 7+ will have their ass handed over to them in seconds, just as a group of skilled rank 7+ will eat a equally skilled group of rank 1s.

Yes, but I was able to score near the top of the DPS list in the scenarios as a level 1 Bright Wizard. You don't get all your tools, but you get enough not to be a complete waste of space.

Rank 1s doing fine in scenarios :

1) Both side are evenly matched in levels - not many higher ranks or they end up neutralizing each other.
2) You're ranged dps or healer and your front line is holding somewhat so that you can heal / nuke from behind
3) You're not melee

Many other times you don't get 1, 2 or 3, and what happens is that the lower ranked side gets swept - because their side is simply too underpowered. It's very frustrating, especially on a server where one side (cough destruction) is already dominant, and it can lead to people jumping to the other side, or not queuing up for scenarios leading to longer and longer wait each time round.



Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: stray on September 23, 2008, 09:43:41 PM
Yay titles. They didn't work for me in CoH either.

Not trying to be an ass, but that's like one of the most insulting incentives to play a game, in my mind. Yet, it somehow works for many other people.

So I take it you don't like Achievements in Xbox 360 either? These are achievements and you get to display them!

Nope, I'm not concerned about 360 achievements either.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Hawkbit on September 23, 2008, 10:17:51 PM

I wanted a mount at level 20 asap, just for speed, so did quests this evening for a change.  I normally hate grouping for pve but tonight I got sucked into grouping for 3 public quests, just because I was doing normal quests in the same area, and finished them all.  I am in a large guild and I am running a high spec pc with Vista 64, so I luckily I don't get any performance issues at all.  I found WAR does gets slightly grindy in the teens so you have to visit the other two realms for quests unless you want to stick to instance pvp, but now at rank 20 I'm going to be into T3 soon and I'm a bit sad as I wanted to stay longer at the top end of T2 for pvp.

I'm in the same boat.  I'm very close to 20, and once I get there I'll chill for a bit and maybe work on an alt casually instead of just gung-ho on one toon.  I need to get one toon up into the top game because that's where it's all going to be at in a few weeks. 


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Khaldun on September 24, 2008, 05:33:07 AM
One thing that I'm really hoping Mythic is brainstorming some creative solutions to is the problem of realm imbalance. On the medium-to-low pop server I'm on now as a Destruction player, there are so few Order players that large parts of the gameworld are utterly uninhabited.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: tazelbain on September 24, 2008, 07:45:25 AM
Really if they had any good ideas they be would using them.  if you had a solution, you don't want until you have large imbalances to implement it.  A +10% exp bonus or some such bs isn't going to do shit.  The added bonus is that low pop servers are basically locked out of the end-game.  I suspect we are going get Mythic classic "Wait and see" strategy.  Wait until the problem is massive and see about fixing it when is too late.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: UnsGub on September 24, 2008, 08:07:35 AM
if you had a solution, you don't want until you have large imbalances to implement it.

The solution is easy.  Merge servers.  Logistics might not be easy but every MMO has to design for merging servers as it will occur even in the most popular game over its lifespan.

My guild of +100 was on a Med\Med (low end) server and we just rerolled.  We are now on a high\high and it is a totally different game.  Old server had no Tier 1 or 2 RvR.  New server constant Tier 1 and 2 RvR.  Old server no PQs, new server about half the PQs have people.

PvP games are totally dependent on other players.  MMOs are almost as depend as it main feature is large group of players.  No players then no game.  It does not help when the design divides each of the two side by another third like Warhammer has done.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: HaemishM on September 24, 2008, 09:15:15 AM
My advice would be to try it now, the major problem I see long term is population at low levels.  If you play order at the minute you will get the low level scenarios to pop virtually instantly.

I think this is going to become a serious issue. Hell, I only missed about a week of play time, and already I was having problems last night finishing a low level PQ. There just weren't enough people my level in the Empire area working on two of the three PQ's for that area. I banged on one almost solo through the first stage and then died in the second stage because I couldn't solo three champion mobs. That will only get worse, and it will cascade into the lower PVP scenarios and RVR areas as the population levels up.

Having cross-server PVP like they added in DAoC would help the PVP scenario problem. But really, those areas are going to be barren six months from now and new players are going to be stuck PVE'ing with quests and grinding to get to a level where they can enjoy the game. DAoC had this problem with battlegrounds and PVE the last time I was back, big time. They did add the free levels and such to get over it, but it is going to be a huge problem long-term.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: rattran on September 24, 2008, 09:57:21 AM
I think the problem with Tier 1 pqs is people are jumping to the scenario queues and simply outleveling them. In Empire Tier 1 I typically only see the Burning Windmill being done, as it's on the main path, and pretty straightforward. The reward for the chap 1 pq are nice, but discarded by level 5.

Chapter 6/7/8 Empire have had people pretty consistently at them from what I've seen. At least the obvious ones near the roads.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Righ on September 24, 2008, 09:58:14 AM
I can't see a solution that doesn't involve some serious server/database redesign. The game needs a certain number of people on each side in any given area for it to work as intended. If you level too fast or too slow, you may miss out on much of what the game offers. If there is a steady stream of new players at lower tiers as the first wave moves on, unless you have substantial player churn at T4/RR70 the areas there will fill up too much and the contested areas will become unplayable. It seems to be a basic design error.

The 'realms' need to be bigger and less tangible - allow 100 times as many people on a realm, but instance the hell out of each area. That way people can play together when they want to, the queues are at the instance level (a subset Bat Country wants to get into an instance of Dwarf chapter 10 PQ together, and queues together because they don't fit into an existing instance but are not populous enough to cause a new instance to spawn). When you hit non-peak hours, there are still enough people in a 'realm' this large to keep PQs and scenarios in at least one instance going. That works for the non-keep parts. It somewhat buggers up keeps however, since the client cannot cope well with very large raids and even if it could the keep sizes themselves limit numbers to at best a couple of hundred players. Instancing keeps seems counter to the 'spoils of war' - the map still show destro and you have no access to buffs or merchants after you've had victories in 3 instances of the same keep because the scrubs in 4 other instances are getting rolled.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Ingmar on September 24, 2008, 11:50:39 AM
My advice would be to try it now, the major problem I see long term is population at low levels.  If you play order at the minute you will get the low level scenarios to pop virtually instantly.

I think this is going to become a serious issue. Hell, I only missed about a week of play time, and already I was having problems last night finishing a low level PQ. There just weren't enough people my level in the Empire area working on two of the three PQ's for that area. I banged on one almost solo through the first stage and then died in the second stage because I couldn't solo three champion mobs. That will only get worse, and it will cascade into the lower PVP scenarios and RVR areas as the population levels up.

Having cross-server PVP like they added in DAoC would help the PVP scenario problem. But really, those areas are going to be barren six months from now and new players are going to be stuck PVE'ing with quests and grinding to get to a level where they can enjoy the game. DAoC had this problem with battlegrounds and PVE the last time I was back, big time. They did add the free levels and such to get over it, but it is going to be a huge problem long-term.

This is a problem with some PQs just right off the bat, even at release. Empire chapter 2 for example, almost everyone just does the windmill one and ignores the other two mostly, even at release. I kind of think they may have overdone the amount of PQs a little bit.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Arthur_Parker on September 24, 2008, 12:05:12 PM
I'm sure way back when the game was first being discussed one of the devs mentioned they had some nifty top secret way of balancing the populations.  I'll see if I can dig out some quotes.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: eldaec on September 24, 2008, 12:17:40 PM
I'm sure way back when the game was first being discussed one of the devs mentioned they had some nifty top secret way of balancing the populations.  I'll see if I can dig out some quotes.

They said they'd use npcs, and base the number of npcs on surper seekit magic formula that took account of gear and realm rank and other shit.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Simond on September 24, 2008, 12:48:43 PM
if you had a solution, you don't want until you have large imbalances to implement it.

The solution is easy.  Merge servers.  Logistics might not be easy but every MMO has to design for merging servers as it will occur even in the most popular game over its lifespan.
If every server has a >2:1 D:O ratio, then merging servers will just lead to longer queues for Destruction on the 'new' server...and a >2:1 D:O ratio.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Draegan on September 24, 2008, 12:52:05 PM
PQs in T2 Empire are always busy on Azazel.  Some of them are empty but there is usually something going on in atleast one per chapter where you can complete it.  Use the open group and fish around and see what's going on.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: murdoc on September 24, 2008, 01:01:47 PM
Free transfers and server merges aren't gonna fix the D >> O issue that I think pretty much every server has. Currently the server I'm on his 40+ min queues for Destro during primetime and weekends, Order hasn't had any. There's no real way to fix that other than hope that a couple hundred of the Destro players in the queue get sick of them and roll an Order char.



Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: schild on September 24, 2008, 01:07:02 PM
Once again: Ulthuan still needs order players. And the f13 guild ain't tiny. And we don't have queues, sucka.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: murdoc on September 24, 2008, 01:15:42 PM
My only two Order chars are on Ulthuan ^^ I might even play them sometimes.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: slog on September 24, 2008, 06:00:09 PM
Free transfers and server merges aren't gonna fix the D >> O issue that I think pretty much every server has. Currently the server I'm on his 40+ min queues for Destro during primetime and weekends, Order hasn't had any. There's no real way to fix that other than hope that a couple hundred of the Destro players in the queue get sick of them and roll an Order char.



I think Mythic really needs to address this if they hope to retain players.  RvR depends on roughly equal sides.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Khaldun on September 24, 2008, 08:11:18 PM
When you do get a lot of people showing up for world PvP, things start to lag pretty brutally from what I've seen. In fact, it's been worse each successive time I've seen it.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: nurtsi on September 25, 2008, 01:00:58 AM
Ran into a weird bug yesterday. Was doing some T1 dark elf PVE (kill spiders, bears, wolves). Suddenly I get disconnected, I log back in after wading through the EULA stuff (took me maybe a minute or two to get back in the game) and I notice I've lost some of my quest progression. Not a big deal, it only takes less than 5 min to redo the quests I lost, but I wonder how often they flush data to their database (or did they do a ninja rollback). I can already imagine the rage when you lose loot to this.

And is it just me, but the UI is buggy as hell. Loot windows don't close (happens every day) even though you shift-click or click loot all (you get the stuff, but the dialog just doesn't close unless you click the 'x'). You get disconnected and you have the server list, and EULA overlapping in the server selection screen. If you are queued to scenario and click the "I need a minute" then that dialog's 'join' button is covered by the insanely large PQ loot button and there's no way to click on the 'join' because it always goes to PQ rewards so you can't get in the scenario. All this running windowed mode in 1024x768, dunno if it's the same with larger resolutions.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: UnSub on September 25, 2008, 01:57:13 AM
Free transfers and server merges aren't gonna fix the D >> O issue that I think pretty much every server has. Currently the server I'm on his 40+ min queues for Destro during primetime and weekends, Order hasn't had any. There's no real way to fix that other than hope that a couple hundred of the Destro players in the queue get sick of them and roll an Order char.



I think Mythic really needs to address this if they hope to retain players.  RvR depends on roughly equal sides.

This will sort itself out automatically according to the WAR devs. It turns out that beta testers have a neutral evil alignment on the whole (http://www.massively.com/2008/09/24/destructions-dominance-is-temporary-says-mythics-drescher/).

(I disagree because in WAR, Order doesn't save the princess and get the shiny armour. They get to halt Chaos for now by burning the princess at the stake, possibly corrupted by Chaos taint and the best they can hope for is a clean death in a shallow grave. Destruction has the "We are gonna win, it's just a matter of time" coolness to them. If Mythic doesn't want Destruction to be as popular as it is, they needed to make them uglier - Chaos mutations you wouldn't want and that disfigure you, not make you look even more awesome.)


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: rk47 on September 25, 2008, 02:14:45 AM
My advice would be to try it now, the major problem I see long term is population at low levels.  If you play order at the minute you will get the low level scenarios to pop virtually instantly.

I think this is going to become a serious issue. Hell, I only missed about a week of play time, and already I was having problems last night finishing a low level PQ. There just weren't enough people my level in the Empire area working on two of the three PQ's for that area. I banged on one almost solo through the first stage and then died in the second stage because I couldn't solo three champion mobs. That will only get worse, and it will cascade into the lower PVP scenarios and RVR areas as the population levels up.

Having cross-server PVP like they added in DAoC would help the PVP scenario problem. But really, those areas are going to be barren six months from now and new players are going to be stuck PVE'ing with quests and grinding to get to a level where they can enjoy the game. DAoC had this problem with battlegrounds and PVE the last time I was back, big time. They did add the free levels and such to get over it, but it is going to be a huge problem long-term.

Public quest isn't about soloing stuff. Let's keep it in perspective. I also had to contend with soloing public quests during off-peak hours cause I live in Asia, but I didn't mind cause even when I couldn't finish it, I still get influence. Advanced and Elite rewards are quite comparable with Reknown gears and outclasses most random drop loot of the same level. It's still win-win. If you hit a champion stage, definitely ask a guildmate to help out if you want the reward badly, if not move on to other PQ in the zone and work on it. Suck it up, it's public quest.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Tarami on September 25, 2008, 02:22:07 AM
Usually you get a choice - look pretty or look mean, but that doesn't play out well in WAR because everyone is fucken ugly. Give the elves some manicure, bring on the cyb0rers and make them all roll tanks!


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: schild on September 25, 2008, 02:28:21 AM
Here's what it comes down to:

This game is about rewards and alliances. I would not hesitate to help anyone on either list if they wanted a PQ reward badly. We can make groups big enough to take keeps in a matter of minutes during peak and even some offpeak hours. We can always get enough people to at least contend in scenarios. Honestly, This game will survive based on guilds not falling apart. Part of the reason I chose to play opposite TSM was because they'd stick it out. The goons and other groups are too volatile and regular uberguilds are too capable of moving from one place to another. Basically, this situation is good for Bat Country (and by extension, the Circus) and from that comes enjoyment that would not be reaped by most players.

As a solo game, it's dog shit but since it was never ever designed to be played solo, that doesn't matter.

PQs aren't about being antisocial and they also aren't antisocial - rather they're just not about Making New Friends. If not making new friends is antisocial, I don't know what to tell you as I don't see it that way. I have 150 friends I can call on at the drop of a hat. And PQs are there for the farming and socialness in said farming.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Draegan on September 25, 2008, 09:01:52 AM
Just say'in here that my Warrior Priest looks badass.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: HaemishM on September 25, 2008, 09:09:52 AM
Public quest isn't about soloing stuff.

Of course. But 1 month in, will there be ANYONE in the zone to help you with the PQ? I have no problem joining a group to do a PQ, but if there's just no one around in that tier because everyone has leveled up, I can't complete the quest. I like completing the quest. Yes, you do still get rewards with influence, and they are good rewards, so it's not a total loss. But new players 1) may not know that, and 2) when you start a quest, you usually like to finish it.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Nebu on September 25, 2008, 09:14:35 AM
Of course. But 1 month in, will there be ANYONE in the zone to help you with the PQ? I have no problem joining a group to do a PQ, but if there's just no one around in that tier because everyone has leveled up, I can't complete the quest. I like completing the quest. Yes, you do still get rewards with influence, and they are good rewards, so it's not a total loss. But new players 1) may not know that, and 2) when you start a quest, you usually like to finish it.

I used to have concerns about this as well, but think about other games.  In the 6 year history of DAoC I could always find low level players.  The same existed in WoW.  Yes, you won't find the large groups of low level players like you did at release, but a single group can complete the first two stages if not all of any PQ. 

The key is to create an open group and see who joins you.  If I remember correctly, you could even form an open group of yourself in beta just by right-clicking on your name icon.  Many people will join groups just to see who is at a given PQ. 

It does have the potential for problems, but I think that there are many ways around these.  Hell, I did a PQ last night with 2 other people (one of them being level 18 on a tier 2 PQ).  So higher level people can help you finish for influence and rewards. 


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Khaldun on September 25, 2008, 06:59:41 PM
You know, the argument made by some people in beta that gear wasn't a big deal, level not a big deal, that RvR would come down to skill and yay, the catassers will no longer dominate?

Ok, maybe not on the scale as some MMOs, but both level and gear are emerging as major factors, especially in world RvR. Tonight at a Tier 2 keep siege, I saw a level 21 warrior priest who had pretty much the best gear sets he could have and a big group of Destruction players in the 15-17 level range could not make a dent in him with max focus fire on him and no additional healers in range. It took a long time to get him anywhere below 75% health. We were in a warband of about 12 players, fairly well-coordinated, a bit light on DPS--tanks and healers mostly. But still.

Moreover, collision detection functions very poorly, so it was impossible to block him off or otherwise contain him even with a wall of tanks trying to hem him in. He'd just keep moving and eventually he'd "skip" through one of us no matter how tightly we packed together.

What's really funny is that the guy is clearly trying to avoid levelling, because he didn't go after squishies or healers, just kept flitting around being a nuisance.

I am guessing this is only the tip of the iceberg: as people figure out how to work the RvR system, it's still going to come down to catasses of some flavor or another driving more and more players towards effectively "mandatory" grinds of some kind required to be able to play with parity in RvR scenarios. If a few people find that when  you push a system to its limits, it creates a very measurable difference between players, then eventually almost everyone is going to feel the impact of that.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Paelos on September 25, 2008, 10:57:52 PM
Collision is sucking. I say that as a tank trying to put my ass in your face.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: amiable on September 26, 2008, 04:47:32 AM
Collision is sucking. I say that as a tank trying to put my ass in your face.

Seems to work pretty welll when 3 Black Orcs pin me to a corner in morkain Temple...


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Numtini on September 26, 2008, 05:02:07 AM
Having watched a few tanks block a stairway in a keep siege, no, collision does not suck.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Nebu on September 26, 2008, 06:48:53 AM
Collision is sucking. I say that as a tank trying to put my ass in your face.

As someone that plays a runepriest, collision is a beautiful thing.  Every tank that I can think of has a snare or stun.  Without the ability to peel tanks off me by using objects/players, I'd be an easy kill every time. 


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Khaldun on September 26, 2008, 07:33:50 AM
I'm just finding that it's horribly inconsistent--that sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. It's not so much "I can tactically use my toon's body in predictable ways to hem in another player", it's more like "I'm in a very fast bumper car with a blindfold over my face driving around in a circle and bumping violently off of other bumper cars in ways that are sometimes good and sometimes not good".


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Mrbloodworth on September 26, 2008, 07:36:46 AM
Collision is this game is badly implemented, and means jack all when people with horrible connections pop all over the place.

Anyone tried ye-old- pull out your net connection trick yet? lol.  :why_so_serious:


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Nebu on September 26, 2008, 08:08:22 AM
Anyone tried ye-old- pull out your net connection trick yet? lol.  :why_so_serious:

No, but circle strafing does keep damage from positional melee down.  This concerns me.  Those adept at circle strafing while window dragging are, again, being rewarded for being douchebags. 


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Paelos on September 26, 2008, 10:06:23 AM
Collision sucks because you think you have it, then the game blips and your target is 10 yards down the road.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: TheWall on September 26, 2008, 01:55:14 PM
I'll be trying to join Bat just as soon as I get my buddy to quit WoW. Its probably going to take him wasting $40 on WOTLK to see its the same game again. But we will get there eventually. I'd go without him, but we have been playing MMOs together for the last 7 years. UO, DAOC, COH, EvE, WoW...

Dang...I have pissed away a lot of my free time.  :ye_gods:


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Rasix on September 26, 2008, 02:15:39 PM
Heh, in a similar situation with my MMO buddy (RL friend from college), but I know he'll be staying with WoW so I've just jumped to WAR.   His PC runs WoW fine, but during his time in the WAR beta he couldn't get it to run well at all with people on the same screen.

It's a shame too, his brother and he were long time DAoC players and are pretty kick ass pvpers.  They just haven't upgraded their PCs in forever.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Azaroth on September 26, 2008, 02:24:16 PM
I never thought I'd say this, but I'll probably hit WOTLK.

And that's ONLY because WAR runs like absolute shit on my computer.

Hopefully something else comes out around the time I realize that I'm playing a really shitty game again.

Edit: Although I'm sure 70-80 will be a pretty good gaming experience.



Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: bhodikhan on September 26, 2008, 02:30:32 PM
As a healer I just played with the 'ol window dragging trick I learned in DAOC. Amazing. I can pop all over and those tanks run all over like blind people. I can't believe that Mythic didn't fix that. If you tried that in WOW you would be looking at the character selection screen real fast. This leads me to believe that a lot of code was reused from DAOC.



Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Fordel on September 26, 2008, 02:56:24 PM
It's the same engine is my understanding.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Soln on September 26, 2008, 03:26:12 PM
As a healer I just played with the 'ol window dragging trick I learned in DAOC. Amazing. I can pop all over and those tanks run all over like blind people. I can't believe that Mythic didn't fix that. If you tried that in WOW you would be looking at the character selection screen real fast. This leads me to believe that a lot of code was reused from DAOC.




eh?  modem pull? 


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Sjofn on September 26, 2008, 04:21:50 PM
I'm just finding that it's horribly inconsistent--that sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't. It's not so much "I can tactically use my toon's body in predictable ways to hem in another player", it's more like "I'm in a very fast bumper car with a blindfold over my face driving around in a circle and bumping violently off of other bumper cars in ways that are sometimes good and sometimes not good".


That's pretty much how I play anyway, so I have that going for me. :D


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Hawkbit on September 27, 2008, 08:09:50 AM
As a healer I just played with the 'ol window dragging trick I learned in DAOC. Amazing. I can pop all over and those tanks run all over like blind people. I can't believe that Mythic didn't fix that. If you tried that in WOW you would be looking at the character selection screen real fast. This leads me to believe that a lot of code was reused from DAOC.




eh?  modem pull? 

Ever notice the player that seems to blink forward out of range real fast?  yeah... that.  I notice DOKs do it a lot for whatever reason... might be because they're in melee so much.  I first thought that Mythic would need to get the servers a little better in sync to have real pvp... but then I found out it's simply asshat mouthbreating cheaters who can't just play the game the way it was intended.  It's only a few douchebags that are doing it, but it's there. 


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Miasma on September 27, 2008, 01:31:48 PM
My current problem with the game is that all of the PvE and PQs are completely pointless once you get out of tier one.  All you do is sit at a warcamp for the best min/max scenario, get the kill and complete quests, and do them over and over.  That completely crushes trying to get xp in any other way.  I really like the PvE, I think the quests are pretty good and I enjoy the zones but there are just no rewards.  You can get some blues for doing PQ's but very few are getting done and to farm all that infamy yourself would take hours per chapter.  The best loot is the PvP loot which you need renown for so if you are doing the PvE you are being punished by losing out on the best stuff.

They need to seriously boost the xp and gear rewards from the PvE quests.  I want to get to twenty today and the best way to do it is to sit in marsh of madness and Mourkain temple over and over again.  PvE is not only slower but it gimps me since I get no renown.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Threash on September 27, 2008, 01:47:03 PM
My current problem with the game is that all of the PvE and PQs are completely pointless once you get out of tier one.  All you do is sit at a warcamp for the best min/max scenario, get the kill and complete quests, and do them over and over.  That completely crushes trying to get xp in any other way.  I really like the PvE, I think the quests are pretty good and I enjoy the zones but there are just no rewards.  You can get some blues for doing PQ's but very few are getting done and to farm all that infamy yourself would take hours per chapter.  The best loot is the PvP loot which you need renown for so if you are doing the PvE you are being punished by losing out on the best stuff.

They need to seriously boost the xp and gear rewards from the PvE quests.  I want to get to twenty today and the best way to do it is to sit in marsh of madness and Mourkain temple over and over again.  PvE is not only slower but it gimps me since I get no renown.

I havent found it to be that way at all.  Leveling through pvp is viable but it is definitely slower than questing.  I get about 2-3 quests worth of exp per 15 min bg, time enough to do 4-5 quests, of course PQ grinding is slower than either but those are mostly about loot rather than exp.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: HaemishM on September 27, 2008, 04:48:07 PM
They need to seriously boost the xp and gear rewards from the PvE quests. 

At the risk of sounding like THAT GUY...

You're doing it wrong.  :awesome_for_real:


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Hawkbit on September 27, 2008, 04:59:00 PM
Here's how it works... 

You do the quests in a chapter and they give you story and will lead you to the PQ locations.  Almost every one of them does it.  Do all that shit solo in your spare time. 

Get a guild group together and go do some PQs.  Completing each PQ in a chapter nets you additional XP for it being new in your ToK. 

At the same time you're doing the guild PQ shit, also be signing up for the local scenario as a group.  That way you're getting rr too. 

The trick is.... and here it comes.... you gotta be social!!  Make people hang out with you.  Doing stuff with other people in this game makes it worth playing.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Arthur_Parker on September 28, 2008, 06:41:59 AM
My current problem with the game is that all of the PvE and PQs are completely pointless once you get out of tier one.  All you do is sit at a warcamp for the best min/max scenario, get the kill and complete quests, and do them over and over.  That completely crushes trying to get xp in any other way. 

I understand why you'd do it but I found that's a fairly boring way to go about playing.  I find I have an idea of what I want to do and then end up getting sucked into something more fun. 

Last night I wanted to do some quests in the other realms, toyed with the idea of starting at chapter 1 and advancing upwards but stumbled into chapter 12 or 13 Elf land, found lots of quests there.  Ended up doing RVR quests, thought I'm not going to be able to do this kill 5 enemy players one, so looked for an open RVR warband.  Joined the warband going and then spent the next 30-40 minutes capturing the couple of outstanding battlefield objectives we had in T3 there.  Killed a few enemy players, finished all the RVR quests, including one that had me killing a level 31 mob at level 23 (Noticed a big leap in equipment quality at rank 23, also equipment is starting to look really cool, coloured cloak etc).  Also it's really nice capturing an objective and then getting a few hundred realm points just for defending it for a couple of minutes.  Noticed I was getting realm points even when I wasn't in pvp due to zone control changing back and forth but it seems to max out at 99% of your level, I think I need to do some pvp when at 99% to push to the next level so I'll then be able to take advantage of this type of passive realm point gain again.

After that I backtracked to Elf chapter 10 and found a shit load of quests, lots of annoying running back and forth but before I know it I'm almost rank 24.  I'm going to avoid scenarios for now as they are pretty good if you are winning but really frustrating if you are on the losing side and trying to use them to level up, instead of just for an occasional change of pace.

I'm still loving the game, but there's a 20 second delay on sending mail in-game, probably to stop spammers, FOR THE LOVE OF GOD REMOVE THAT RESTRICTION IF MAILING AN ALT ON THE SAME ACCOUNT, it's very very annoying.

Top tips, if you are stuck on a quest, right click everything in your quest backpack, sometimes it triggers the next part.  If a mob is meant to spawn on a quest and doesn't, abandon the quest and start it again.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Righ on September 28, 2008, 10:02:35 AM
As a healer I just played with the 'ol window dragging trick I learned in DAOC. Amazing. I can pop all over and those tanks run all over like blind people. I can't believe that Mythic didn't fix that. If you tried that in WOW you would be looking at the character selection screen real fast. This leads me to believe that a lot of code was reused from DAOC.

Mythic's response in DAOC was something along the lines of "we can't penalize it because it could be real lag".

However, its pretty easy to take away the most commonly exploited tools - windowed mode and UI window resizing while engaged in combat. Actually don't do that - fix the CTD associated with alt-tab, then, whenever the game window or UI windows are resized or whenever somebody switches task, just root the character for 15 seconds and put all their abilities on 15s cooldown if they are available or on a shorter cooldown.

But for the love of all that's WAAAGH fix the CTDs first.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Sjofn on September 28, 2008, 01:54:01 PM
I'm still loving the game, but there's a 20 second delay on sending mail in-game, probably to stop spammers, FOR THE LOVE OF GOD REMOVE THAT RESTRICTION IF MAILING AN ALT ON THE SAME ACCOUNT, it's very very annoying.

I would settle for letting me mail multiple things with one shot (like in WoW). But yeah, the mail thing totally blows it right out the ass.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Fordel on September 28, 2008, 02:31:17 PM
What if you try to sell yourself gold? THEN WHAT?


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: amiable on September 29, 2008, 05:25:04 AM
I'm still loving the game, but there's a 20 second delay on sending mail in-game, probably to stop spammers, FOR THE LOVE OF GOD REMOVE THAT RESTRICTION IF MAILING AN ALT ON THE SAME ACCOUNT, it's very very annoying.

I would settle for letting me mail multiple things with one shot (like in WoW). But yeah, the mail thing totally blows it right out the ass.

Seriously, the mail system is all kinds of retarded. Something needs to be done.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Righ on September 29, 2008, 06:49:04 AM
I haven't yet installed any addons (the game is already unstable enough for my liking) but this is the one that's tempted me most:

http://war.curse.com/downloads/war-addons/details/sendstuff.aspx


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Oz on September 29, 2008, 07:09:38 AM
Quote
Ever notice the player that seems to blink forward out of range real fast?  yeah... that.  I notice DOKs do it a lot for whatever reason... might be because they're in melee so much.  I first thought that Mythic would need to get the servers a little better in sync to have real pvp... but then I found out it's simply asshat mouthbreating cheaters who can't just play the game the way it was intended.  It's only a few douchebags that are doing it, but it's there.

I see this way, way too much currently.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Nebu on September 29, 2008, 07:14:41 AM
Played a scenario last night where the enemy's zealots did nothing but circle strafe and window drag.  If this continues, it's going to be a deal breaker.  DAoC suffered this kind of crap for years and I'm really tired of the lame asses call this type of thing "skill".  If you're so damn skilled, just play the game straight and see how you do.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Mrbloodworth on September 29, 2008, 07:49:24 AM
Played a scenario last night where the enemy's zealots did nothing but circle strafe and window drag.  If this continues, it's going to be a deal breaker.  DAoC suffered this kind of crap for years and I'm really tired of the lame asses call this type of thing "skill".  If you're so damn skilled, just play the game straight and see how you do.

Yep, its starting to annoy me too.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: rk47 on September 29, 2008, 07:52:03 AM
Yeah it seriously made me gave up going 2hand dps mode cause I couldn't hit shit at all with my Swordmaster, and giving up the shield made me squishier for the Black Orcs and Chosen to rape me in combat. Can this actually be prevented by forcing the game on fullscreen mode for future clients?


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Nebu on September 29, 2008, 08:00:43 AM
Yeah it seriously made me gave up going 2hand dps mode cause I couldn't hit shit at all with my Swordmaster, and giving up the shield made me squishier for the Black Orcs and Chosen to rape me in combat. Can this actually be prevented by forcing the game on fullscreen mode for future clients?

In DAoC you could get a similar effect by resizing the chat box during combat... so I'm not sure fullscreen will help much.  People will always find a way to game the system and call it skill.  Ok... it's kind of a skill.  It does take some insight to find ways to use mechanics to your advantage, but this is a bit outside the realm of the intended.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Khaldun on September 29, 2008, 08:54:54 AM
Window dragging is spreading very rapidly. Mythic better get on top of it somehow, because it pretty much fucks RvR up in a serious way.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on September 29, 2008, 09:22:18 AM
Window dragging is spreading very rapidly. Mythic better get on top of it somehow, because it pretty much fucks RvR up in a serious way.

I was wondering why people were warping all over the place. I had figured it was something on my end but yes in a pvp game this is inexcusable.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: bhodikhan on September 29, 2008, 09:36:09 AM
The DAOC engine gets really stupid whenever it's processing a WM_MOUSEDOWN and WM_MOUSEMOVE. They need to stop giving priority to that and make sure the position info and net traffic of the players is the top priority.

As it is they stop all net traffic when you resize the window or re-position it. Fix the damn code already.

You should see the D3D dump that goes on when you cross the zone boundaries. That stutter is them resetting the entire graphics engine and reloading DirectX. They're also making about 1000 registry reads as well.

This codebase is so bloated I'm not sure it can be fixed. Tweaked? Maybe. 


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Paelos on September 29, 2008, 09:38:39 AM
Explain windowdragging please. I'm confused as to what they are doing.

Also, roots don't stop them doing this?


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Riggswolfe on September 29, 2008, 09:47:39 AM
I'm confused too. Do you mean that in Windowed mode, dragging the game screen around causes you to "warp"? I know I've seen people bouncing away from me in Stone Troll Crossing but I thought it was some kind of lag or a graphics bug since monsters have warped to me too.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Merusk on September 29, 2008, 09:51:10 AM
If I'm reading this right, Window dragging is like the oldschool "pull your modem out, then run around and plug it back in."  

When you did that, the server and the client talked to reset position, with the Client getting the benefit of the dobut. You could run through walls, pop into places you shouldn't be able to access, all kinds of fun stuff that way.   What it looks like to other people is that you blinked 10-20 yards away from where they were seeing you.

No idea why window dragging, chatbox dragging or other such nonsense would have any effect like that other than lazy/ poor coding. But then IANAC.

Roots may STOP a person, but roots and stuns very short duration effects in WAR. Chances are you're rooting someone you think is right in front of you, who then "blinks" into a different spot, forcing your ass to run up to them just as the root breaks and you repeat the cycle.  Roots, etc would work best against melee characters like Marauders, but they're not bunny hopping into and out of range on you, just circle-strafing to get back-attacks and other positionals off.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: slog on September 29, 2008, 09:51:20 AM
I'm confused too. Do you mean that in Windowed mode, dragging the game screen around causes you to "warp"? I know I've seen people bouncing away from me in Stone Troll Crossing but I thought it was some kind of lag or a graphics bug since monsters have warped to me too.

Yes.  It's an exploit carried over from DAOC.  Looks like they got lazy when porting over the code.  In a nutshell, you just run in windowed mode at a smaller res than your desktop.  Then you just move the window around as you do other stuff.  This causes you to warp all over the place.

I find it pretty funny that they didn't fix this in either of their MMOs.  And before someone goes off on his this isn't fixable, I don't know of any other MMO that suffers from this.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: ajax34i on September 29, 2008, 09:53:03 AM
*nevermind*


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: HaemishM on September 29, 2008, 10:31:16 AM
'Splain to me what is this "window dragging?" Is it a way of inducing lag and thus creating problems with other people trying to get near you?

EDIT: Nevermind too, window dragging was explained. I have noticed a bit of warping, but nothing game breaking yet.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: cevik on September 29, 2008, 10:56:51 AM
No idea why window dragging, chatbox dragging or other such nonsense would have any effect like that other than lazy/ poor coding. But then IANAC.

Probably because it forces a continuous stream of screen redraws, which takes a lot of horse power, which is causing the networking part of the code to lose time slots, which means that you aren't getting as many updates to the server, so it's bouncing you around.  Basically you are doing the same thing as unplugging them modem (starving the server of position updates), but you are using a processing bandwidth issue to cause the problem, instead of physically disconnecting.



Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Merusk on September 29, 2008, 03:03:12 PM
No idea why window dragging, chatbox dragging or other such nonsense would have any effect like that other than lazy/ poor coding. But then IANAC.

Probably because it forces a continuous stream of screen redraws, which takes a lot of horse power, which is causing the networking part of the code to lose time slots, which means that you aren't getting as many updates to the server, so it's bouncing you around.  Basically you are doing the same thing as unplugging them modem (starving the server of position updates), but you are using a processing bandwidth issue to cause the problem, instead of physically disconnecting.



Ah I completely understand now. Thanks for the explanation.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Ingmar on September 29, 2008, 03:04:32 PM
What that essentially boils down to of course, is lazy/poor coding.  :oh_i_see:


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: UnSub on September 30, 2008, 02:11:06 AM
I find it pretty funny that they didn't fix this in either of their MMOs.  And before someone goes off on his this isn't fixable, I don't know of any other MMO that suffers from this.

Anyone: are there any other MMOs that suffer from this kind of exploit?


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Righ on September 30, 2008, 05:53:52 AM
In DAoC you could get a similar effect by resizing the chat box during combat... so I'm not sure fullscreen will help much.

As I said before, root people when they resize an in-game or main window or switch task while in combat. Doesn't rule out all sources of induced 'lag' but takes care of the most commonly abused ones. You don't need to be perfect - the more resourceful exploiters are still going to abuse the client - but stopping the many people who use the well-known methods of cheating from doing so will make life bearable for those who don't cheat.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Mrbloodworth on September 30, 2008, 06:19:38 AM
I find it pretty funny that they didn't fix this in either of their MMOs.  And before someone goes off on his this isn't fixable, I don't know of any other MMO that suffers from this.

Anyone: are there any other MMOs that suffer from this kind of exploit?

Not window dragging (First i have heard of it), but the modem trick was Lolz in SWG, to the point of getting into unfinished areas of the games, or simply walking down into Faction bases.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: FatuousTwat on September 30, 2008, 06:22:33 AM
There is also a way to fly straight up into the air to avoid being attacked... Forgot how to do it now.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Dren on September 30, 2008, 06:23:57 AM
In DAoC you could get a similar effect by resizing the chat box during combat... so I'm not sure fullscreen will help much.

As I said before, root people when they resize an in-game or main window or switch task while in combat. Doesn't rule out all sources of induced 'lag' but takes care of the most commonly abused ones. You don't need to be perfect - the more resourceful exploiters are still going to abuse the client - but stopping the many people who use the well-known methods of cheating from doing so will make life bearable for those who don't cheat.

Yeah, if you can explain to me (somebody that doesn't even play the game) how to do the exploit in basically one sentence and I understand it, you have a problem.  I can't believe people thought this wouldn't spread through the playerbase like wildfire and be abused to no end.

At least get it down to a few people that go way way out of their way to cheat and have to update with each patch.  At least then it is "hard."  


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Bzalthek on September 30, 2008, 07:30:04 AM
I'm just going to throw this out there:

I would love an option to opt out for PQ loot.  When I'm just farming influence, and I've already gotten (or don't need) rewards from the PQ, I feel like shit turning it into cash. 

Also, when in a scenario, if you are a level 10 healer, and a level 2 healer shows up and curb-stomps you in the healing charts, you should be temp-banned and your significant other should be sent a box of wire coat hangars. 


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: bhodikhan on September 30, 2008, 07:43:51 AM
Radar and Window Dragging killed DAOC for me. It was always amazing how a group could find our stealthed group and make a straight line to us. The widespread use of radar programs made me cancel without any remorse. Mythic better not do that again.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Lantyssa on September 30, 2008, 08:40:09 AM
I would love an option to opt out for PQ loot.  When I'm just farming influence, and I've already gotten (or don't need) rewards from the PQ, I feel like shit turning it into cash. 
This would be nice.  Yesterday I had to kill a handful of mobs in a PQ area and put two hits on the final hero since I wandered by as the fight was finishing.  I was 13th in influence rank.  Rolling a 994 gave me second rank and one of the two green bags available.  I shouldn't have even been on the list and really wanted to opt out.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Goreschach on September 30, 2008, 09:28:59 AM
You know, given that the gui windows are drawn using the same scripting system that the players can modify, then if resizing the windows allows for this effect I'd wager it would be possible to create a mod for the game that gives the player a 'lag hopping' button. Working up such a thing, and posting it on the general forums at all the major websites could be a rather effective, if underhanded, way to force Mythic to address the problem.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Nebu on September 30, 2008, 09:33:00 AM
You know, given that the gui windows are drawn using the same scripting system that the players can modify, then if resizing the windows allows for this effect I'd wager it would be possible to create a mod for the game that gives the player a 'lag hopping' button. Working up such a thing, and posting it on the general forums at all the major websites could be a rather effective, if underhanded, way to force Mythic to address the problem.

What could they do about it, exactly?  People will still pull their connection out intermittently, etc.  The best solution (in my code-ignorant opinion) would be to just leave characters stationary in cases where there is latency.  If players try to use lag to their advantage, they simply remain stationary rather than warping around.  Maybe one of the gurus around here can speak to this topic.



Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: murdoc on September 30, 2008, 09:38:35 AM
I would love an option to opt out for PQ loot.  When I'm just farming influence, and I've already gotten (or don't need) rewards from the PQ, I feel like shit turning it into cash. 
This would be nice.  Yesterday I had to kill a handful of mobs in a PQ area and put two hits on the final hero since I wandered by as the fight was finishing.  I was 13th in influence rank.  Rolling a 994 gave me second rank and one of the two green bags available.  I shouldn't have even been on the list and really wanted to opt out.

Definitely would like this feature. Helping a couple of lower level guildies and a couple random others in a PQ, I would love to just opt out of the roll and let all the lowbies have a better chance at the loots bags that I'll just turn into cash anyways.

Last night it seemed that most of the playerbase we were up against was window dragging or doing something along the same lines. I'm sure our side was as well. It's basically made collision detection useless and taken away one of my best tactics for keeping our healers safe, or corner someone with a flag. Very frustrating to get someone hemmed in and they warp not only through me, but quite a bit out of melee range as well.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Goreschach on September 30, 2008, 10:09:38 AM
You know, given that the gui windows are drawn using the same scripting system that the players can modify, then if resizing the windows allows for this effect I'd wager it would be possible to create a mod for the game that gives the player a 'lag hopping' button. Working up such a thing, and posting it on the general forums at all the major websites could be a rather effective, if underhanded, way to force Mythic to address the problem.

What could they do about it, exactly?  People will still pull their connection out intermittently, etc.  The best solution (in my code-ignorant opinion) would be to just leave characters stationary in cases where there is latency.  If players try to use lag to their advantage, they simply remain stationary rather than warping around.  Maybe one of the gurus around here can speak to this topic.



The thing is, most mmo's are susceptible to similar cable pulling, using a program like gear to play with internal clocks, and that kind of stuff because the mmo servers need to trust the client on things like player position. Simple numbers, like your stats or equipment, are stored and managed on the server because they're small and the things that use these numbers won't be crippled by the response time between the client and server. You can memhack your client to display 10000 str or whatever, but this will have no effect on gameplay. The server doesn't trust your client to manage your characters stats. However, if the server had to confirm every position change before it showed up on your screen, then every time you moved forward, or tried to turn, there would be a significant lag between when you hit the key, and when it happened. And whenever a packet from the server arrived out or order, or got lost, you'd notice your character rubberbanding, suddenly jump in position or stop running for a fraction of a second. Since this would be horribly irritating, they have no choice but to trust the client when it tells the server 'I'm over here and I'm running in this direction'. This is somewhat simplified, and there are more accurate methods of predicting position than linear extrapolation, and there are ways to optimize this while reducing ability to exploit, but the basic network speed limitation is still present, and will always be present in mmos until we're on superinternets with single ms ping times. Until then the server won't be capable of managing movement the way it manages things like spell casts.

So pulling the network cable, of course, can't be fixed completely, but the gui issue can. I've been doing some modwork, and I've noticed some problems with what I think is the way the game's internal script interpreter figures out when to run and update scripts. I can't be sure, but I think the nagging problems they're having with the animation/spell timer funkyness, the issues with the scripting, and the way that dicking with the gui seems to be tying up the network response are all based on a fundamental problem with the way the game is set up to handle multiple threads for different operations. Ideally, all the network stuff, graphics, scripting, and so on should be multithreaded, so if a script cocks up the gui then the operating system will take a break from that thread and move on to another that can handle the network response stuff independently. But it seems like currently either the different parts of the game aren't multithreaded, or the threads are too interdependent. This would explain why screwing around with the gui windows would prevent the client from sending updated position/velocity data to the server.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: cevik on September 30, 2008, 10:29:01 AM
The thing is, most mmo's are susceptible to similar cable pulling, using a program like gear to play with internal clocks, and that kind of stuff because the mmo servers need to trust the client on things like player position.

You don't have to have it as an either/or thing, you can overcome lag by assuming that the server will eventually get around to okaying the movement, and thus drawing it on the screen before you hear back from the sever.  The client experiences no latency and the server still gets to proof the movement.  If you have a disconnect or severe packet loss, then you'll rubberband back to the initial position (or last approved server position).

Likely this is "too much" checking for the client, so some middle ground is chosen, but you can avoid things like teleport hacks or fast run speed by checking the state of the player, which is maintained server side (i.e. walking, running, sprinting), vs the straight-line distance moved over any given period of time.  If the distance is greater than acceptable (by some margin of error) then boot the player.  That simple check won't fix the circle strafing/warping issue that DAoCWAR is experiencing, but it must be fixable since there are other games that do not experience the problem.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on September 30, 2008, 10:31:49 AM
Mythic really should hire people that know how to write and handle code. I think these guys are called programmers, or something.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Nebu on September 30, 2008, 10:40:19 AM
I will say this, if circle strafing, window dragging, and lag jumping become the norm, I'm out.  There's no excuse for this stuff to exist in a PvP-based MMO. 


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Khaldun on September 30, 2008, 10:41:51 AM
Especially one that tries to implement collision detection and builds at least some of its gameplay around the assumption of a successful implementation of same.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Lum on September 30, 2008, 10:54:10 AM
Radar and Window Dragging killed DAOC for me. It was always amazing how a group could find our stealthed group and make a straight line to us. The widespread use of radar programs made me cancel without any remorse. Mythic better not do that again.

Radar was finally beaten (as far as I know, it may have come back recently) in DAOC about 2 years after release, when a packet encryption was introduced that the radar coders couldn't crack easily. A "man in the middle" client scheme was introduced about a year later, but the coders weren't able to keep up with client changes and gave up. There was another radar hack (XUnleashed) but it caused the DAOC client to crash a lot. Which was amusing when it appeared in bug reports.

http://capnbry.net/daoc/daocskilla.php

Also, radar never detected stealthed players, as the packets for stealthed players were never sent to the client.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Nebu on September 30, 2008, 10:57:32 AM
So Lum... can you speak to why these lag exploits are so rampant in Mythic games but not in WoW or is that proprietary info?


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: ffc on September 30, 2008, 10:57:58 AM
Cheating is where I draw the line.  

No more chain kill xp bonus?  Ok.  Quest xp not scaling up properly in Tier 3+?  No problem.  Still a buggy White Lion pet?  Fine.  The core PvP game remains fun.

But cheating ruins the fun.  Fix it if it is fixable, otherwise I guess I get to eat a couple extra value meals a month at Jack in the Box.

The fact that this problem was in DAOC, and somehow made it into WAR (!!!!), likely means I'll be getting fat.

PS - I feel Tortaged regarding Tier 3 quest xp. 


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Lum on September 30, 2008, 11:03:57 AM
So Lum... can you speak to why these lag exploits are so rampant in Mythic games but not in WoW or is that proprietary info?

WoW doesn't have server-side collision detection for players, which makes lag exploits a lot more critical.

Plus, well, it's a different client. Warhammer uses Emergent (which used to be Gamebryo), as did DAOC. I have no idea how shared the code base is between the two but if window dragging is still a problem I'd guess there's some sharing going on, though the combat cycle/feedback seems pretty different from DAOC to me.

Bear in mind I haven't been at Mythic since 2005, never worked on Warhammer, and am probably not high on Mark Jacobs' Christmas card list. It's kind of refreshing going back to the role of "whiny player", too!


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Nebu on September 30, 2008, 11:08:12 AM
Bear in mind I haven't been at Mythic since 2005, never worked on Warhammer, and am probably not high on Mark Jacobs' Christmas card list. It's kind of refreshing going back to the role of "whiny player", too!

I realize, but you still have considerably more expertise than the whining hordes (like myself).  I'm finding it both interesting and annoying that players will find a way to win at all cost.  I just hope that Mythic takes the issue more seriously than they did in DAoC.  Printing a statement on the Herald that loosly translates to "circle strafing exhibits skillful play" is like pissing in my corn flakes. 


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Lum on September 30, 2008, 11:10:52 AM
Although it just occurred to me that if players are trying to spoof client-side prediction via window-dragging, either they aren't getting around collision detection or the colliision detection is actually client-side.

I hope for Mythic's sake it's not the latter, or I see some pretty hideous hacks in their future....

Printing a statement on the Herald that loosly translates to "circle strafing exhibits skillful play" is like pissing in my corn flakes. 

Still hard to beat the company line from UO circa 1998 that house-breaking exploits were "creative uses of magic".


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Ingmar on September 30, 2008, 11:13:09 AM
I'm just going to throw this out there:

I would love an option to opt out for PQ loot.  When I'm just farming influence, and I've already gotten (or don't need) rewards from the PQ, I feel like shit turning it into cash. 

Also, when in a scenario, if you are a level 10 healer, and a level 2 healer shows up and curb-stomps you in the healing charts, you should be temp-banned and your significant other should be sent a box of wire coat hangars. 

Keep in mind that every time that level 2 healer dies and runs back into the action, he's getting healing credit for his hp going up from bolster.  :-P


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Nebu on September 30, 2008, 11:15:12 AM
Right now, as a healer, I see collision being more of a detriment than a help.  Often when I pre-kite, I just run into a wall of my own players rather than gain benefit from collision.  I think collision detection needs to be only between realms to be beneficial, but I may be alone in this opinion. 


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Ingmar on September 30, 2008, 11:17:17 AM
Right now, as a healer, I see collision being more of a detriment than a help.  Often when I pre-kite, I just run into a wall of my own players rather than gain benefit from collision.  I think collision detection needs to be only between realms to be beneficial, but I may be alone in this opinion. 

Ugh, targeting someone on the move is hard enough without them being all in a stack too!


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Nebu on September 30, 2008, 11:18:44 AM
Ugh, targeting someone on the move is hard enough without them being all in a stack too!

I've all but given up trying to heal outside of my own group.  Being nice to people just to have someone in my group die isn't worth it.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: ffc on September 30, 2008, 11:23:56 AM
Printing a statement on the Herald that loosly translates to "circle strafing exhibits skillful play" is like pissing in my corn flakes. 

Circle-strafing should be treated as a separate issue from window-dragging.

Circle-strafing is necessary for classes that have positional moves, like Witch Hunter / Witch Elf / White Lion / Marauder.  It is also necessary to avoid an enemy's cone of fire.  This is not cheating.

Window-dragging to warp around and not be hit is cheating.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Ingmar on September 30, 2008, 11:29:13 AM
Yeah I don't see how circle strafing can be stopped, or really even how it is much of a problem. The fact that you can't run through casters to keep their spells from firing off in WAR solves most of what was the problem with that sort of thing in DAOC.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Nebu on September 30, 2008, 11:36:49 AM
Circle-strafing as a movement is fine.  Circle-strafing as a means to induce lag-related warping is not.  They need to solve the lag related warping.  If they manage to fix the lag issues, then this would result in circle strafing being a skill-based movement rather than a lag-inducing affair meant to generate "Out of sight" lag issues.

i.e. If I'm a good player, I should be able to counteract someone circle strafing with an in-game mechanic.  Lag is NOT an in-game mechanic and cannot be countered consistently with another in-game mechanic.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Riggswolfe on September 30, 2008, 11:37:24 AM
I've been reading about the collision detection and the layman consensus is that it's client side and this is why, if you block someone from moving, they warp away from you usually.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Goreschach on September 30, 2008, 12:04:21 PM
The thing is, most mmo's are susceptible to similar cable pulling, using a program like gear to play with internal clocks, and that kind of stuff because the mmo servers need to trust the client on things like player position.

You don't have to have it as an either/or thing, you can overcome lag by assuming that the server will eventually get around to okaying the movement, and thus drawing it on the screen before you hear back from the sever.  The client experiences no latency and the server still gets to proof the movement.  If you have a disconnect or severe packet loss, then you'll rubberband back to the initial position (or last approved server position).

Likely this is "too much" checking for the client, so some middle ground is chosen, but you can avoid things like teleport hacks or fast run speed by checking the state of the player, which is maintained server side (i.e. walking, running, sprinting), vs the straight-line distance moved over any given period of time.  If the distance is greater than acceptable (by some margin of error) then boot the player.  That simple check won't fix the circle strafing/warping issue that DAoCWAR is experiencing, but it must be fixable since there are other games that do not experience the problem.

While you're right that the more basic exploits can be corrected, in a game with a movement system like WAR's you're not going to be able to fix the circle strafing problem with server position checking. Possibly not even alleviate it much. Most mmos will have a system where if you drop connection for more than a second, or 5, or whatever then if you reestablish connection you'll rubberband back to the last confirmed area. This would help, to some degree, with the problem of actually breaking the connection. And speedhacking can usually be detected by just monitoring the player's movement. However, the problem with the window resizing isn't that it breaks the network response for a significant period of time(if I'm understanding peoples' complaints correctly), but that it simply creates sizeable gaps(maybe a couple hundred ms?) between updates. In a game with realistic physics this wouldn't matter much, as the server could accurately predict where most objects would be in that period of time.

The problem comes about when you consider the way players in WAR move. Players run, without fatigue, at approximately the speed of a cheetah on a cocaine high. What's worse is that they basically have zero momentum, and can start, stop, and turn in any direction instantly.  This makes any kind of accurate prediction on the order of more than maybe 100ms impossible if the player is doing something involving a lot of starting/stopping/mouse movement. Like circle strafing.

This impossibility to make accurate movement predictions over any significant length of time does two things. First, it allows the circle strafing problem to show up to begin with(ignoring window resizing screwing with the network updating). Second, it also makes impossible what you suggest about using a system that constantly re-updates the player position based on a stream of server confirmations. A system like that would cause a constant stream of rebands as the client synchronizes your position to each server response. In some games, something like this would be possible, but the degree of the constant rebanding is inversely proportional to the network speed and the accuracy of the player movement prediction. In a game like WAR, where the network is huge and slow, and player movement prediction is hard, then you wouldn't be able to implement a system like that without experience constant rebanding when you do something other than stand still or run straight ahead. This is why most games like this use a 'grace period' before rebanding takes effect. Unless things go out of whack for more than a given period(maybe a couple seconds), or the discrepancy between what is expected and what happens is very large, the server just trusts the client.

So what they need to do to fix this resizing problem is fix the resizing problem, and not waste time dicking around with position confirmation.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Nonentity on September 30, 2008, 12:15:25 PM
I made a terrible analogy last night, but one that is totally appropriate.

The WAR client is like a...

Okay, no, I won't share it.

Lets just say that it doesn't play nice, and I want to be able to beat the crap out of my MMO client, and if I run the goddamn thing in 'fullscreen windowed' mode, it should not FUCKING MINIMIZE when I go to another program.

The CPU usage of the client should not GO UP AND AFFECT ALL OTHER PROGRAMS when I am in it.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Mrbloodworth on September 30, 2008, 12:55:57 PM
No more chain kill xp bonus?  Ok.  

Yeah, wait, what happened to that anyway? i don't think i have seen it since launch?


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Oz on September 30, 2008, 01:01:22 PM
Quote
I just run into a wall of my own players rather than gain benefit from collision. 

this Annoyed us to no end in human T1, where all the order players would just stop on the bridge.  Not a good idea if your melee people are not in front of you...


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Hawkbit on September 30, 2008, 01:50:46 PM
The game should not have released without at least a tank, healer and dps for each tier.  That would resolve at least some of the imbalance issues.

Imo, as a tank, I really like collision detection... it sucks having people run in front of you, but it's ok.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Riggswolfe on September 30, 2008, 02:09:02 PM
Quote
I just run into a wall of my own players rather than gain benefit from collision. 

this Annoyed us to no end in human T1, where all the order players would just stop on the bridge.  Not a good idea if your melee people are not in front of you...

This happens way to much. Order gets intimidated and freezes on that damn bridge. It's really annoying.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Fraeg on September 30, 2008, 04:44:14 PM
hmm... would window dragging explain this?

in Phoenix Gate yesterday there was a witch elf grabbing our flag (Violet on Volkmar :uhrr:), standard deal, pops out of stealth and hits sprint.  I am a WH and was standing on the steps.  As soon as she pops i am firing my gun for its snare, she gets snared.  I run up to hit her and get "Target Not In Range"  and i was standing right on top of her.  This happened the entire way back to their flag cap point.  I could only  hit her with my gun to slow her down, and not enough damage to kill her. And eventually i of course got stomped by her team.

At first, i thought ok.. Lag?!?!?.  But she then proceeded to do the exact same thing with the same results til the game was over.

So... Next Scenerio... the exact same thing with a DOK (Blite on Volkmar :uhrr:). I was the only one chasing this guy, and only hitable with my ranged gun even if i was standing on him.  then once backup for him showed up... all of a sudden i could hit him, and he was hitting me.  Once more order showed up and wiped out his healers...*poof* suddenly "Target Out of Range" again.  He then proceeded to show me a new exploit.  Hop up the hill Destro Side to get to starting point while holding flag, and have lvl 55+ guards keeping you safe while you hold the flag.

I should note: I had no problems hitting anyone else in both scenarios.. it was just these two players who *happened* to be carrying the flag.

Is this Window Dragging? or something else?


If this persists, and/or gets worse... that's a deal :heartbreak: breaker for a game i have been loving since ~January.

Hell it made me make my first "@" post in probably 5 years.

/rant off


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: rattran on September 30, 2008, 06:08:02 PM
Stuff like the client forgetting there is a keep, and thus being able to walk/target through walls doesn't fill me with confidence in mythic's client skills.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Bzalthek on September 30, 2008, 09:18:49 PM
I did some window dragging tests (outside of pvp, in a pve camp) and I was walking up damn near vertical inclines.  Without the dragging, I'd just be stuck at the bottom running in place.

For a PvP centric game, some of this shit needs some quick attention.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: nurtsi on October 01, 2008, 05:05:45 AM
I get the 'target not in range' on my black orc in PVE all the time. I'm standing on the mob but can't hit it. Then I have to manually move around to find where the mob really is and where my client thinks it is. Happens more on mobs that use ranged attacks. Basically it seems like the client and the game server are out of sync (same stuff happened with WoW warriors after charging in the early days). Haven't had this happen in WoW for a long time now so I hope Mythic can fix it as well.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: raydeen on October 01, 2008, 05:30:17 AM
I get the 'target not in range' on my black orc in PVE all the time. I'm standing on the mob but can't hit it. Then I have to manually move around to find where the mob really is and where my client thinks it is. Happens more on mobs that use ranged attacks. Basically it seems like the client and the game server are out of sync (same stuff happened with WoW warriors after charging in the early days). Haven't had this happen in WoW for a long time now so I hope Mythic can fix it as well.

I've been seeing A LOT of this. I was chalking it up to my machine only having 1 GB (2 GB should arrive tomorrow) and just choking on the memory requirement. Fortunately, both of the toons I've rolled have ranged attacks so I just have to jockey around until the range kicks in. Haven't seen this in PvP yet. Frankly, AoC performs a lot better than WAR does. Lower overall framerate but much more consistant in mob/player pathing and targeting. And WAR is a lot more crash prone. Sometimes it will just consider crashing to the desktop (screen gamma will go way up and the game will lock for about 30 secs then recover-enough to get me killed), or it will crash to the login screen a few times in a row, or just shit it's pants to the desktop, one time so severe that I got dumped down to 640x480x16 and had to restart completely. I'm really hoping Mythic does some optimizing on this thing.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Drubear on October 01, 2008, 05:55:27 AM
I get the 'target not in range' on my black orc in PVE all the time.

I was on my BlackOrc as well, and noticed it on the range mobs too. It seemed to happen more when I moved up to them, and then tried to dmg-pull them back a bit (to try to avoid some bof/range aggro from friends.) I was pretty much unable to do that and once I moved further back out of range, the mob "warped back" to their starting position.

It looked to me like I was pulling them back, and my client was obliging, but (Little Britain voice) "the server said no." Perhaps there's some npc in-combat movement/location bugs?

Verra annoying.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Wasted on October 01, 2008, 06:25:56 AM
With my Shadow Warrior I can't use my snare at all in PVE as the mob appears to continue to follow me when it really is actually snared.  All melee attacks with say out of range even though its showing as right in front of me and moving whilst all all range attacks are still red to indicate too close.  This doesn't seem to happen in pvp though.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: murdoc on October 01, 2008, 07:33:30 AM
I get the 'target not in range' on my black orc in PVE all the time. I'm standing on the mob but can't hit it. Then I have to manually move around to find where the mob really is and where my client thinks it is. Happens more on mobs that use ranged attacks. Basically it seems like the client and the game server are out of sync (same stuff happened with WoW warriors after charging in the early days). Haven't had this happen in WoW for a long time now so I hope Mythic can fix it as well.

Yup, same thing with me. I was playing with two other guildmates in the room and they would keep asking 'why are you standing over there?' On my screen, my Black Orc was right beside the mobs swinging away too 'target not in range', on their screens it showed my just standing off in a distance.

Only time I had it happen in pvp I was chasing down a player in Tier 2. Would get on my mount and chase them down to the point where I'd be blocking them from running forward, dismount and get 'target not in range' over and over as they ran away.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Paelos on October 01, 2008, 09:21:26 AM
The targetting bug in melee is extremely annoying, especially if other targets are pounding on you. I had one point where one mob bugged while another shot me in the back, then i dragged that bugged mob to the mob shooting me, and that one bugged. Finally, I had them both unbugged, very little health, and somehow managed to beat them both up with about 100 health left.

Then a spider came out of nowhere, and bit me in the ass. I died, and the game crashed. If there was a queue, I might have cancelled right there.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Lantyssa on October 01, 2008, 09:43:51 AM
The bad mob sync is really annoying.  It's even worse if you play a class with a lot of positional attacks like a White Lion.

It definately on the server side though, as a group of people will have difficulty hitting the same target.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Khaldun on October 01, 2008, 12:40:47 PM
Yeah, I have this happen quite a bit in PvE as well, and it is sometimes something that other people in my group will experience at the same time and sometimes not. I think sometimes it's terrain linked (not unlike how a mob can get bugged in WoW by getting stuck in terrain). Sometimes it seems to me to involve a ranged mob where the server-side doesn't recognize that the mob has been engaged at melee distance, and so keeps insisting that the mob is still attacking at range. (You can tell this in part by the animations. This is almost the worst of these kinds of events, because it's well-nigh impossible to clear, short of getting out of the mob's range altogether.) Sometimes I have no idea what it is. What's especially annoying in all cases is that the mob can still hurt you, and will often rubberband to you even if you back up or run away, while retaining its status as untargetable. At least in WoW, if a mob gets bugged, it can't hurt you any more than you can hurt it. Getting beat on by something that you can't affect is really goddamn annoying, and if it happens enough, borderline game-breaking.

If people learn how to do this deliberately in RvR, the game is fucked. I've seen only one case now of a player who seemed untargetable--a White Lion. And it was only in two sessions of STC, so I'll chock it up to a bug for now. When I see window dragging, in contrast, what I see are players who suddenly warp away from their last visible location or warp around behind you or who pass through what look like solid objects. You can still target them, but they may suddenly be out of range (e.g., their new location is 'real' to the server in relationship to your location). They don't rubberband back to where you previously saw them, and the solid objects they've passed through they "really" passed through.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Fraeg on October 01, 2008, 01:57:34 PM

If people learn how to do this deliberately in RvR, the game is fucked. I've seen only one case now of a player who seemed untargetable--a White Lion. And it was only in two sessions of STC, so I'll chock it up to a bug for now. When I see window dragging, in contrast, what I see are players who suddenly warp away from their last visible location or warp around behind you or who pass through what look like solid objects. You can still target them, but they may suddenly be out of range (e.g., their new location is 'real' to the server in relationship to your location). They don't rubberband back to where you previously saw them, and the solid objects they've passed through they "really" passed through.

I had my third instance last night of the Target out of range in Phoenix gate.  Every time it  has been the flag carrier.  This time it wasn't just me there was a train of 4 order melee all trying to hit the guy, and all that would work were our throwing weapons.   Every time i have seen this it just so happens to be the person running the flag, and i have zero issues targetting and hitting any other opponents.   3 does not a statistically valid population  make... but i am getting pretty damn suspicious at this point that something is rotten in the state of Denmark.


sigh..... I know I should know better than to think people won't do assgoblin stuff like this if they think they can get away with it, but it still bums me out.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: HaemishM on October 01, 2008, 02:02:31 PM
sigh..... I know I should know better than to think people won't do assgoblin stuff like this if they think they can get away with it, but it still bums me out.

Of course people will be assgoblins. Which is why it's incumbent on Mythic to fix things like window dragging FAST.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: SnakeCharmer on October 01, 2008, 02:07:12 PM
Still debating on whether or not to pick this up.

And I'm still not sure what window dragging is.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: cevik on October 01, 2008, 02:09:01 PM
Still debating on whether or not to pick this up.

And I'm still not sure what window dragging is.

It's a ubiquitous way for people who are terrible at pvp to cheat and pretend it's skill.  If you like real pvp, wait until mythic fixes window dragging before picking up this game.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Ingmar on October 01, 2008, 02:10:22 PM
Its a Mythic game. When it is fun, it is more fun than anything else on the market, but that fun comes with a lot of little caveats like bad communication from the company and a number of small crappy quality-of-life type issues. Mythic doesn't do polish very well, but the core PVP experience is so much fun that unless cheating becomes rampant (a possibility) the other stuff isn't enough to kill it.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Nebu on October 01, 2008, 02:20:02 PM
Its a Mythic game. When it is fun, it is more fun than anything else on the market, but that fun comes with a lot of little caveats like bad communication from the company and a number of small crappy quality-of-life type issues. Mythic doesn't do polish very well, but the core PVP experience is so much fun that unless cheating becomes rampant (a possibility) the other stuff isn't enough to kill it.


So true... oddly that describes early UO for me as well. 

Let's hope that having 500k subscribers brings a little urgency to the table.  I'd hate to see WAR go the way of AoC.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: schild on October 01, 2008, 02:27:57 PM
500k was for 1 week.

I have no clue what they're at now, but I'd bet it's much better.
 
Imo, the more subscribers the more urgency, you have a lot more to lose.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Nebu on October 01, 2008, 02:32:04 PM
500k was for 1 week.

I have no clue what they're at now, but I'd bet it's much better.
 
Imo, the more subscribers the more urgency, you have a lot more to lose.

You all know that I've been a fan of DAoC for 6 years.  I want this game to succeed.  I want it desperately. 

Unless they slam the door on lag exploits, the people that have come to the game for accessible pvp will leave in droves.  I will be holding the door for them. 


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Threash on October 01, 2008, 02:52:24 PM
500k was for 1 week.

I have no clue what they're at now, but I'd bet it's much better.
 
Imo, the more subscribers the more urgency, you have a lot more to lose.

You all know that I've been a fan of DAoC for 6 years.  I want this game to succeed.  I want it desperately. 

Unless they slam the door on lag exploits, the people that have come to the game for accessible pvp will leave in droves.  I will be holding the door for them. 

Few more nights of not hitting flag runners and im out of here.  I hear aoc has fixed a lot of their problems and they already had a fun game to begin with.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Morfiend on October 01, 2008, 03:45:03 PM
I would imagine that they have until early November to get some of this stuff fixed. I cant think why November though...


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: rk47 on October 01, 2008, 04:29:13 PM
Well this is why I only play Morkaine really. Fuck the rest of the cap the flag map with warping. In Morkaine it was quick, has some real time tactic going on and nobody has nothing to do. cap the flags end up being dragged around a lot with some ppl totally being clueless tards. I had so many matches at PGate that ended with Order winning through one capture 120-97 but still scored less EXP n Renown cause Destro totally rape them on kills. Order avg xp 4000-5000 Destro 5000-6000. Time spent: 15 minutes++. Fuck that shit.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Fraeg on October 01, 2008, 04:45:10 PM
yep, after my last encounter with Captain Unhittable Flagman, I have just been doing Mork-Temple

which is a shame because even though it was lest renown per hour, I really liked Phoenix Gate.

The savage raping I have received in Stonetroll in every SC i have been in during release keeps me clear of that one.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: SnakeCharmer on October 01, 2008, 07:58:02 PM
It's a ubiquitous way for people who are terrible at pvp to cheat and pretend it's skill.  If you like real pvp, wait until mythic fixes window dragging before picking up this game.

Can it be fixed?  I read somewhere in this thread it took them 2 years to fix it in DAoC.

I love me some PvP, but not a big fan of the 'sploits (looking at you, AoC).  Granted, there's sploitin' in every game, just depends on the severity of it, I suppose.

Yay.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: insouciant on October 01, 2008, 08:26:19 PM
I do not know if any of you have been back to the newbie areas, but they tend to be deserted.  God help if you want to start a new Order alt.

This should prove to be a significant deterrent to people who are looking for something new but were not in the first wave on the servers.  In addition, the grind if you do not have players to group with is not pretty.  It may not be EQ bad, but after WOW it sure feels that way (maybe just CoH grindy, but perception is all here.

Finally, CS is nonexistent as far as I can tell.  I have sent six or more appeals/bug reports/etc. in the last week and have zero responses to date. 

Once dissatisfied players start dropping, I seriously doubt there will be many newcomers to take their places.



Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Phildo on October 02, 2008, 01:41:25 AM
You know, Phoenix Gate is my favorite T2 map.  It's not so much about chasing down flag carriers as it is preventing the flag from  being picked up in the first place.  I really love the push and pull on attack/defense on that map and I have a lot more fun there than I do on Mourkain, so I'm happy to see it go 15 minutes.  In fact, I've taken to feeling cheated when Mourkain ends quickly because I have to go re-queue instead of getting to keep on fighting.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: schild on October 02, 2008, 01:43:52 AM
Trust me Phildo, eventually you'll want to steamroll people in 5-8 minutes, get 10-15k exp and move on to the next round. I gained nearly 2 levels this afternoon and like 3 renown levels. The goal is RvR at 40, the journey is.... temporary. What will I do when I get there? Probably level an alt with everyone else :)


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Arthur_Parker on October 02, 2008, 01:55:43 AM
I don't know if they have put too much focus on the scenarios or not.  I do know that last night we captured three virtually undefended keeps and for the time spent I received very little exp (Realm points were fine, 900 for a keep, 2 batches of 300-400 for a standard objective).  I'm not saying they should nerf exp gain in scenarios but they should maybe consider giving you at least 8,000 xp for being present when a keep lord is successfully killed.

I really don't want to feel I'm falling behind in level advancement while I'm actually contributing something to the overall realm control status.  If I spend 45 minutes capturing a keep I shouldn't be thinking to myself, I'd have been far far better off doing quests or scenarios.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: schild on October 02, 2008, 02:03:42 AM
When I hit 30, I'm going to stave off 31 and 32 as long as possible just taking keeps. Though once I hit 31 it'll be hard to not want to DECIMATE in scenarios.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: rk47 on October 02, 2008, 05:53:11 AM
You know, Phoenix Gate is my favorite T2 map.  It's not so much about chasing down flag carriers as it is preventing the flag from  being picked up in the first place.  I really love the push and pull on attack/defense on that map and I have a lot more fun there than I do on Mourkain, so I'm happy to see it go 15 minutes.  In fact, I've taken to feeling cheated when Mourkain ends quickly because I have to go re-queue instead of getting to keep on fighting.

???? I think 5 minutes of instant killing assist with the murder ball carrier is quite exciting enough. Any longer and I'd probably feel drained. but schild has a point when he wants more 'true deathmatch' maps that reward kills. First side to score 50 kills wins the map is simple and elegant. No first captures or rushing. It's all 12 v 12. Manage casualty or get rolled. Resurrected people will not lose points, Each respawn deducts 10 pts. etc.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Nebu on October 02, 2008, 06:20:02 AM
Phoenix gate requires a lot more thought and allows you to be more creative in play.  I can consistently heal near 100k in Phoenix gate as the scenery allows me to hide and position well.  Morkaine is just a keyboard smashing fiasco.  I'm really looking forward to hitting 22 and moving on from Morkaine. 


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Oz on October 02, 2008, 06:30:17 AM
Quote
Phoenix gate requires a lot more thought and allows you to be more creative in play.  I can consistently heal near 100k in Phoenix gate as the scenery allows me to hide and position well.  Morkaine is just a keyboard smashing fiasco.  I'm really looking forward to hitting 22 and moving on from Morkaine

I can't agree more.  my iron breaker has a lot more fun in Phoenix gate then Morkaine.  I feel like i contribute dick in Morkaine, but in phoenix gate there's lots to do (sneak around and grab the flag, chase down the destr guy that ninjad our flag, fight in the middle, help the flag runner by snaring everyone chasing him, etc)


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: amiable on October 02, 2008, 06:43:54 AM
Phoenix gate requires a lot more thought and allows you to be more creative in play.  I can consistently heal near 100k in Phoenix gate as the scenery allows me to hide and position well.  Morkaine is just a keyboard smashing fiasco.  I'm really looking forward to hitting 22 and moving on from Morkaine. 

I forsee dissapointment in your future...  Tor Anroc is the preffered Tier 3 scenario and it is basically Morkaine on roids (with lava). 

I'm with Schild in preffering murderball scenarios in general, as the action is usually non-stop and it does reward teamwork (AMIABLE REZ ME!!!!).  There are some novel tier 3 scenarios (like the "blowing up the damn" one).  But they make it too difficult to complete the objectives, making the game drag on and one.  They either need to up VP's generated from kills in those scenarios or allow objective completion to be instantaneous.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: rk47 on October 02, 2008, 06:47:50 AM
If they really want to improve the cap the flag games they definitely need to tone down the CC in this game. At the moment there's just too many goddamn snare and telling me as a tank 'Oooo but you have Juggernaut to break free' is meaningless when there are usually 2-4 classes near each other ready to aoe root one after another. It's quite common to burn my Juggernaut to catch a fleeing caster only to get snared again within 5 seconds.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Hawkbit on October 02, 2008, 06:51:45 AM
Trust me Phildo, eventually you'll want to steamroll people in 5-8 minutes, get 10-15k exp and move on to the next round. I gained nearly 2 levels this afternoon and like 3 renown levels. The goal is RvR at 40, the journey is.... temporary. What will I do when I get there? Probably level an alt with everyone else :)

Which is exactly why T3 XP needs increased significantly.  If they want to put a grind in the game, start it at 30 so we can participate in the real rvr.  But until that point, let us (and our alts) into that part of the game asap. 


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: rk47 on October 02, 2008, 06:55:05 AM
i queued all t4 scen for 3 hours on ulthuan. it didn't pop.  :uhrr: So I respec PVE and gave my  char last name 'Carebear.'


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: bhodikhan on October 02, 2008, 07:16:31 AM
I'm really looking forward to hitting 22 and moving on from Morkaine. 

With a lot of my guild doing T3 scenarios, as a healer I started doing T3's at level 20 and am having more fun with my guild instead of T2 pugs.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Lum on October 02, 2008, 09:09:08 AM
I do not know if any of you have been back to the newbie areas, but they tend to be deserted.  God help if you want to start a new Order alt.

T1 scenarios still pop constantly and levelling via scenarios is MUCH faster in T1 than questing.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Riggswolfe on October 02, 2008, 09:11:25 AM
I do not know if any of you have been back to the newbie areas, but they tend to be deserted.  God help if you want to start a new Order alt.

T1 scenarios still pop constantly and levelling via scenarios is MUCH faster in T1 than questing.

I don't know what server you're on, but on Ostermark you can't take a step in Tier 1 without bumping into someone.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: insouciant on October 02, 2008, 09:13:39 AM
I am on two different servers, one for Order and one for Destruction.  Apocryphal evidence only, but last night I spent three hours in a queue that never popped, and during that time I tried all three T1 RvR zones, only to find no groups working on killing the NPC placeholders.

It is getting old seeing the "no open groups in your area" message each time I zone.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: murdoc on October 02, 2008, 09:20:38 AM
That sucks. Both the Tier 1 and 2 scenarios on my server are in constant rotation.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Riggswolfe on October 02, 2008, 10:03:05 AM
I am on two different servers, one for Order and one for Destruction.  Apocryphal evidence only, but last night I spent three hours in a queue that never popped, and during that time I tried all three T1 RvR zones, only to find no groups working on killing the NPC placeholders.

It is getting old seeing the "no open groups in your area" message each time I zone.

Odd. I have to choose: Scenarios or PVE. If I'm in a queue I get exactly zero questing done.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: insouciant on October 02, 2008, 10:51:34 AM
My point was not meant to be "sure sucks to be me" as much as "what are newbies going to do three/six months from now."

If you take Lum's point that scenario exp. is faster ( I have no real comparison), you are now saying to such newbies "OK here is the deal, you get to grind uninspired PvE for rank, will not be able to grind much RR due to player scarcity, and you get a slower experience overall since the PvE xp is slower.  Thanks for your $45.95!"

I think that this issue does exist, will not be addressed, resulting in a long-term subscriber base that is much lower than it otherwise could have been.



Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Mrbloodworth on October 02, 2008, 10:53:03 AM
I also have worry's that population at lower tiers will be an issue, but i also know, most players are still working on there main, and at some point user will start rolling alts ETC..

Its a cycle.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Lakov_Sanite on October 02, 2008, 11:04:25 AM
I also have worry's that population at lower tiers will be an issue, but i also know, most players are still working on there main, and at some point user will start rolling alts ETC..

Its a cycle.

No offense to mmo enthusiasts but if your games fun it dependent entirely on other people being there, you're not doing it right. Other people can enhance an experience and make things more enjoyable but if playing solo is like pulling teeth you WILL lose customers. Because a company cannot guarentee there will be other people, maybe they are all max level, maybe the player is antisocial but for whatever reason your core solo gameplay needs to be fun.

Some new players will hit the alt cycle if there is one but again how many? should i have to wait until someone tells me the pool is ready for newbies before I can buy the game?


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: HaemishM on October 02, 2008, 11:08:32 AM
I also have worry's that population at lower tiers will be an issue, but i also know, most players are still working on there main, and at some point user will start rolling alts ETC..

Its a cycle.

The cycle of alting will never be enough to really support the lower levels. It's a problem that only gets worse with time. DAoC had this in spades when I went back about 3-4 years after release. Levels 1-32 (as much as I could take) were BARREN WASTELANDS, including the battlegrounds. Mythic did provide some help by giving out a full level's worth of free xp every week. But the best bet is going to be to shorten that grind a lot in the early stages as the game gets older.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Riggswolfe on October 02, 2008, 11:27:37 AM


The cycle of alting will never be enough to really support the lower levels. It's a problem that only gets worse with time. DAoC had this in spades when I went back about 3-4 years after release. Levels 1-32 (as much as I could take) were BARREN WASTELANDS, including the battlegrounds. Mythic did provide some help by giving out a full level's worth of free xp every week. But the best bet is going to be to shorten that grind a lot in the early stages as the game gets older.

Was this before or after the mechanic to start alts at 20 was introduced? I suspect that killed the lower levels.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Ingmar on October 02, 2008, 11:38:55 AM
If they really want to improve the cap the flag games they definitely need to tone down the CC in this game. At the moment there's just too many goddamn snare and telling me as a tank 'Oooo but you have Juggernaut to break free' is meaningless when there are usually 2-4 classes near each other ready to aoe root one after another. It's quite common to burn my Juggernaut to catch a fleeing caster only to get snared again within 5 seconds.

I think I disagree here. Casters/healers have to have escape options or the game just ends up being a tankfest. WAR already has the least amount of CC that I've ever seen in an MMO, I think the balance there is pretty good.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: HaemishM on October 02, 2008, 11:42:04 AM


The cycle of alting will never be enough to really support the lower levels. It's a problem that only gets worse with time. DAoC had this in spades when I went back about 3-4 years after release. Levels 1-32 (as much as I could take) were BARREN WASTELANDS, including the battlegrounds. Mythic did provide some help by giving out a full level's worth of free xp every week. But the best bet is going to be to shorten that grind a lot in the early stages as the game gets older.

Was this before or after the mechanic to start alts at 20 was introduced? I suspect that killed the lower levels.

After, but you could only get a free level 20 if you already had a level 50. It meant the only battleground from 1-50 that was populated was the 20-24 one, but the PVE? Totally deserted.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Ingmar on October 02, 2008, 11:49:10 AM


The cycle of alting will never be enough to really support the lower levels. It's a problem that only gets worse with time. DAoC had this in spades when I went back about 3-4 years after release. Levels 1-32 (as much as I could take) were BARREN WASTELANDS, including the battlegrounds. Mythic did provide some help by giving out a full level's worth of free xp every week. But the best bet is going to be to shorten that grind a lot in the early stages as the game gets older.

Was this before or after the mechanic to start alts at 20 was introduced? I suspect that killed the lower levels.

On my server/side we were underpopulated enough (we were close to the most underpopulated realm in the entire game  :drill:) that we had /level 30, which was even *more* inconvenient if you wanted to go to Thidranki. It depopulated the newbie/midlevel zones without changing our relative population at all. :oh_i_see:
After, but you could only get a free level 20 if you already had a level 50. It meant the only battleground from 1-50 that was populated was the 20-24 one, but the PVE? Totally deserted.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Mrbloodworth on October 02, 2008, 12:18:38 PM
I also have worry's that population at lower tiers will be an issue, but i also know, most players are still working on there main, and at some point user will start rolling alts ETC..

Its a cycle.

The cycle of alting will never be enough to really support the lower levels. It's a problem that only gets worse with time. DAoC had this in spades when I went back about 3-4 years after release. Levels 1-32 (as much as I could take) were BARREN WASTELANDS, including the battlegrounds. Mythic did provide some help by giving out a full level's worth of free xp every week. But the best bet is going to be to shorten that grind a lot in the early stages as the game gets older.

Oh, i wasn't trying to say its going to fix everything, more that its going to happen. (the cycle).


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Nebu on October 02, 2008, 12:26:27 PM
The one thing that will save the low level game is the high level game.  If the high level game gets stale for people or if balance issues persist, people will be left with two choices; leave the game or play the lower level scenarios where these things are less frequent.  DAoC had a very active BG system because several of the BG's had a low barrier to entry and were quite fun for sport pvp play.  It's not impossible to think that a similar subculture could exist in WAR, particularly if balance and boredom issues develop in the endgame.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: SnakeCharmer on October 02, 2008, 12:51:45 PM
So, say somebody prefers to roll ridiculously overpowered AoE classes that make levelling a cakewalk, what would they chose?


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: veredus on October 02, 2008, 01:02:29 PM
So, say somebody prefers to roll ridiculously overpowered AoE classes that make levelling a cakewalk, what would they chose?

Another game?

http://forums.f13.net/index.php?topic=14788.msg521572#msg521572 (http://forums.f13.net/index.php?topic=14788.msg521572#msg521572)


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Mrbloodworth on October 02, 2008, 01:09:35 PM
So, say somebody prefers to roll ridiculously overpowered AoE classes that make levelling a cakewalk, what would they chose?

Bright wizard or sorceress would be my guess, not having played ether, but having been in the AOE.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Evildrider on October 02, 2008, 02:06:57 PM
Umm BW's suck for aoe grinding, especially in a solo way.  Not only are you taking damage from the mobs you are most likely killing yourself as well due to combustion.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Ingmar on October 02, 2008, 02:09:28 PM
Yeah a BW can't really do it without a healer. If you want to solo AOE mobs down, you actually probably want a swordmaster or maybe a white lion with the new pounce.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Kirth on October 02, 2008, 02:51:24 PM
So, say somebody prefers to roll ridiculously overpowered AoE classes that make levelling a cakewalk, what would they chose?


Swordmaster.


seriously.  :drill:


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: UnSub on October 02, 2008, 06:35:44 PM
On the original topic:

Whoomp, there it is. (http://forums.f13.net/index.php?topic=14798.0)


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Fordel on October 02, 2008, 06:42:49 PM
Sword Masters = Protection Paladins?


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: murdoc on October 02, 2008, 06:56:26 PM
On the original topic:

Whoomp, there it is. (http://forums.f13.net/index.php?topic=14798.0)

If I'm not mistaken, that WHOLE thread should be green text.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Phildo on October 02, 2008, 07:58:45 PM
Is anyone else annoyed by the respawn rate of regular enemies in areas where you're trying to run missions?  I kill four guys and the first one is already respawning while I'm trying to interact with something.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: rk47 on October 02, 2008, 08:31:18 PM
So, say somebody prefers to roll ridiculously overpowered AoE classes that make levelling a cakewalk, what would they chose?


Swordmaster.


seriously.  :drill:

With the right mix of gear and high spec into Hoeth tree, you can basically AoE PQ mobs 6-8 of them at a time with no fear. Here's the build I used at lvl 22
http://www.wardb.com/career.aspx?id=17#0:0:0:0:5:40:25:::9045:818

Put Century of Training tactic on since every AoE hits has a chance to trigger it, it really adds up. Sword and board is the only way to do this btw, it's great for PQ grinding but terrible at solo. So if you want to solo stuff, consider getting a decent 2 hander and ditch the shield.



Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Sjofn on October 02, 2008, 08:51:31 PM
Sword Masters = Protection Paladins?

You should play and find out!  :awesome_for_real:


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: rk47 on October 02, 2008, 09:02:12 PM
I never played a protection pally but let's see how Vaul tree - Protection tree unfolds.
We have phantom blade. A blade with 25% chance to shield you for an amount of dmg for 10 sec.
It also has blocking & parry tactic. If I am not wrong those two, if successful, means ZERO damage taken.
Redirected force, an early tier mastery unlock is actually the hardest hitting basic attack available to the swordmaster. It only requires a successful block to be available, making usage in PVE very often but quite frustrating in PVP. Unless you can get someone to hit you. Did I mention all tanks can taunt PVP targets and cause 30% more damage until they hit you back three times?
Crushing advance is more block with medium damage. Considering there's a tactic to boost blocks potentially up to 5-10%, 5% block is huge.

Past that is the 'gold tactic' in the tree, Vaul's Buffer. For every block/parry, you gain more damage shield. You can be in a situation where you have both phantom blade & vaul buffer shield protecting you, effectively absorbing the enemy's next 3-4 attacks easily. After that, there's not much to grab. You won't deal a lot of damage in RvR but you are probably the most annoying target to kill and can actively disrupt their attacks with AoE knockbacks , AoE Root, and AoE Debuffs. Very very disruptive.



Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Fordel on October 02, 2008, 09:14:33 PM
Sword Masters = Protection Paladins?

You should play and find out!  :awesome_for_real:


I'm on to your tricks!


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Paelos on October 02, 2008, 11:19:01 PM
I cancelled my sub today. The game wouldn't run without enormous amounts of skipping, lag, and general wtf CTDs that I couldn't put up with it anymore. I love the shit out of the pvp when it's working, but the game simply won't run. That's all there is to it for me. WoW runs with zero issues, this game runs like a slideshow in when i'm in a forest by myself. Does my computer suck? It's 4 years old, so maybe, but I'm not willing to make a few hundred $$$'s worth of upgrade over a game I don't think is running correctly on any spec.

Dammit Mythic, I really want to love this thing. I really do. Fuck you.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Fordel on October 02, 2008, 11:21:11 PM
The Monkey dances with rage instead of joy :(


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: raydeen on October 03, 2008, 06:18:35 AM
I cancelled my sub today. The game wouldn't run without enormous amounts of skipping, lag, and general wtf CTDs that I couldn't put up with it anymore. I love the shit out of the pvp when it's working, but the game simply won't run. That's all there is to it for me. WoW runs with zero issues, this game runs like a slideshow in when i'm in a forest by myself. Does my computer suck? It's 4 years old, so maybe, but I'm not willing to make a few hundred $$$'s worth of upgrade over a game I don't think is running correctly on any spec.

Dammit Mythic, I really want to love this thing. I really do. Fuck you.

Just curious, but what are your specs? I got my 2GB ram upgrade yesterday, and coupled with the patch, seem to have a lot more luck with running WAR. I still saw an occasional crash to login and I think one crash to desktop. Much better performance. I was about to give up as well.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: schild on October 03, 2008, 06:24:44 AM
I cancelled my sub today. The game wouldn't run without enormous amounts of skipping, lag, and general wtf CTDs that I couldn't put up with it anymore. I love the shit out of the pvp when it's working, but the game simply won't run. That's all there is to it for me. WoW runs with zero issues, this game runs like a slideshow in when i'm in a forest by myself. Does my computer suck? It's 4 years old, so maybe, but I'm not willing to make a few hundred $$$'s worth of upgrade over a game I don't think is running correctly on any spec.

Dammit Mythic, I really want to love this thing. I really do. Fuck you.

Comparing a new game to a 4 year old game is stupid. I assume you haven't upgraded your PC since WoW came out either, eh?

Also, since the patch I've had nearly zero stuttering, almost no lag (it's FAR better) and not a single CTD. Not even in Altdorf.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Paelos on October 03, 2008, 09:16:14 AM
I cancelled my sub today. The game wouldn't run without enormous amounts of skipping, lag, and general wtf CTDs that I couldn't put up with it anymore. I love the shit out of the pvp when it's working, but the game simply won't run. That's all there is to it for me. WoW runs with zero issues, this game runs like a slideshow in when i'm in a forest by myself. Does my computer suck? It's 4 years old, so maybe, but I'm not willing to make a few hundred $$$'s worth of upgrade over a game I don't think is running correctly on any spec.

Dammit Mythic, I really want to love this thing. I really do. Fuck you.

Comparing a new game to a 4 year old game is stupid. I assume you haven't upgraded your PC since WoW came out either, eh?

Also, since the patch I've had nearly zero stuttering, almost no lag (it's FAR better) and not a single CTD. Not even in Altdorf.

Yep it is, but I'm not going to upgrade over this. They look almost no different. I don't get it. Do I eventually need a new kickass OMG vid card and more RAM, yeah. Would it solve this problem? Yeah. It would also set me back at least $500 that I don't have.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Nebu on October 03, 2008, 09:24:20 AM
Yep it is, but I'm not going to upgrade over this. They look almost no different. I don't get it. Do I eventually need a new kickass OMG vid card and more RAM, yeah. Would it solve this problem? Yeah. It would also set me back at least $500 that I don't have.

So... you're complaining about your financial situation?


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Paelos on October 03, 2008, 09:30:09 AM
Yep it is, but I'm not going to upgrade over this. They look almost no different. I don't get it. Do I eventually need a new kickass OMG vid card and more RAM, yeah. Would it solve this problem? Yeah. It would also set me back at least $500 that I don't have.

So... you're complaining about your financial situation?

Not really, it's moreso that WoW runs well, and this game doesn't on the same rig. Night and day. If the game looked night and day I could accept this, wait a few months, upgrade the computer and just let it go. It doesn't though. I'm running WAR on the absolutely lowest possible specs in the options, and at times I was CTDing immediately after login only to sit in another queue.

It's a combination of the lot of things, but until I hear that there's NO stuttering from people (barring 100 man keep taking sessions), I'm not going to put up with it. The queues also are driving me nuts, and the xp grinding thing was kicking in hard at level 23. That section was pretty boring.

EDIT: Oh and Destruction is quickly becoming the new Alliance in terms of scenarion PvP.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Nebu on October 03, 2008, 09:41:38 AM
Ok, that I can agree with.  The game doesn't run nearly as smoothly as WoW given pretty similar graphic comparisons.  The engine does need soem serious optimization, especially if large scale rvr is to be successful. 


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Xenomorph on October 03, 2008, 09:50:18 AM
For what it's worth, my crappy old box (AMD64 X2 4600+, 3GB RAM, 9600GT) ran the game shittily enough--stutters in PvE, slideshow in heavy PvP, memory leak CTD every 4-5 hours of gametime--that I thought it was a good excuse to upgrade. Runs fine on my new won't-spend-more-than-$1000 machine (Q6600, 4GB RAM, HD4850), barring the random CTD (none since the patch).

Destruction isn't always the goat, by the way. On Skull Throne, Order sucks, maybe because (even at T3) the healer/tank-heavy Destruction teams crush the more dps-heavy Order. My main is a WH, and while I usually pump out top damage numbers (unless there's a skilled BW in the group), they're not so much higher than non-dps classes to validate my existence.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Seanzor on October 03, 2008, 10:40:28 AM


...They look almost no different...

I'm definitely a gameplay > graphics type of guy, but this really stuck out to me.  Frankly, WAR looks no better than WoW.  If I had to choose, I'd say I prefer WoW's graphics for at least being interesting.  But WAR's are both uninteresting and unimpressive from a technical standpoint.  So why does this game perform worse (a lot worse) than Age of Conan, both games on maximum settings? 

I chalk it up to being one more fault of using a piece-of-crap fossil of a graphics engine.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Draegan on October 03, 2008, 12:25:51 PM
I cancelled my sub today. The game wouldn't run without enormous amounts of skipping, lag, and general wtf CTDs that I couldn't put up with it anymore. I love the shit out of the pvp when it's working, but the game simply won't run. That's all there is to it for me. WoW runs with zero issues, this game runs like a slideshow in when i'm in a forest by myself. Does my computer suck? It's 4 years old, so maybe, but I'm not willing to make a few hundred $$$'s worth of upgrade over a game I don't think is running correctly on any spec.

Dammit Mythic, I really want to love this thing. I really do. Fuck you.

Comparing a new game to a 4 year old game is stupid. I assume you haven't upgraded your PC since WoW came out either, eh?

Also, since the patch I've had nearly zero stuttering, almost no lag (it's FAR better) and not a single CTD. Not even in Altdorf.

I logged in for just a second yesterday.  I did a clean install of the game from the beta client to the discs.  Logged in and the ground textures were flickering.  Awesome.  However it went away when I went to window mode.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Evildrider on October 03, 2008, 12:27:05 PM
I guess its just me but the only thing that screws me up is the alt-tab thing.  I'd play in windowed mode but I get better performance in fullscreen.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Tannhauser on October 04, 2008, 07:30:10 PM
That's weird I get better performance in windows instead of full screen.

I do have stuttering issues, occassionally lag but CTD are quite rare.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Threash on October 04, 2008, 08:13:40 PM


...They look almost no different...

I'm definitely a gameplay > graphics type of guy, but this really stuck out to me.  Frankly, WAR looks no better than WoW.  If I had to choose, I'd say I prefer WoW's graphics for at least being interesting.  But WAR's are both uninteresting and unimpressive from a technical standpoint.  So why does this game perform worse (a lot worse) than Age of Conan, both games on maximum settings? 

I chalk it up to being one more fault of using a piece-of-crap fossil of a graphics engine.

This is what i wanted to say.  Age of Conan on max settings ran better than this does on medium to low settings.  When i fly to altdorf i lag and stutter non stop, i had ZERO problems running AoC or any other game i've played recently.  And the graphics on this are really only a slight step above wow.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: schild on October 04, 2008, 09:42:33 PM
Quote
Age of Conan on max settings ran better than this does on medium to low settings.

wat

No.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Phred on October 04, 2008, 09:43:27 PM


...They look almost no different...

I'm definitely a gameplay > graphics type of guy, but this really stuck out to me.  Frankly, WAR looks no better than WoW.  If I had to choose, I'd say I prefer WoW's graphics for at least being interesting.  But WAR's are both uninteresting and unimpressive from a technical standpoint.  So why does this game perform worse (a lot worse) than Age of Conan, both games on maximum settings? 

I chalk it up to being one more fault of using a piece-of-crap fossil of a graphics engine.

I dont think the gamebryo engine really qualifies for either of these titles. I am pretty sure it's been rewritten and upgraded a few times since the DaoC/Morrowind versions that they started off with. After all, they sell this thing and who's gonna pay for minor updates to an aged engine? I just don't necessarily think it's being used effectively in WAR. The engine has some very state of the art features in it that probably aren't being  used much if at all in WAR. I think their decision to go with a lower poly stylized look for WAR was a good plan but not necessarily the best match up with the engine.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Draegan on October 04, 2008, 09:45:28 PM
The textures in the game now fluxuate and stutter when I'm in fullscreen.  My game only works in windowed mode for some reason.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Lantyssa on October 04, 2008, 11:20:17 PM
Quote
Age of Conan on max settings ran better than this does on medium to low settings.
wat

No.
It still runs pretty well maxxed out for me, 'cause I have a nice system, but AoC does run better.  Considering they can't get a simple thing such as /ignore to work, I'm guessing there is plenty of room for optimization.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Threash on October 05, 2008, 08:23:57 AM
Quote
Age of Conan on max settings ran better than this does on medium to low settings.

wat

No.

Yes.  I set most of the graphic stuff to "balanced" with some all the way down to the "max fps" setting and i still experience lots of stuttering, specially in altdorf.  AoC was on max settings with zero problems whatsoever.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Lantyssa on October 05, 2008, 08:53:08 AM
I had two Keeps not load at all yesterday.  I could literally walk through the non-existant walls and tag mobs because to me they were all standing on a barren plot of land.  Someone else in the group had it happen to them, too.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: trias_e on October 05, 2008, 08:57:35 AM
Same thing happened to me.  Yet another totally inexplicable weird ass bug in this game.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: slog on October 05, 2008, 09:26:34 AM
I had two Keeps not load at all yesterday.  I could literally walk through the non-existant walls and tag mobs because to me they were all standing on a barren plot of land.  Someone else in the group had it happen to them, too.

could other people see you walking through the walls? (in other words, did the server let you walk through the walls?)

If yes, it sounds like all collision detection is client side.  Should make for some nice hax


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Lantyssa on October 05, 2008, 11:35:33 AM
could other people see you walking through the walls? (in other words, did the server let you walk through the walls?)

If yes, it sounds like all collision detection is client side.  Should make for some nice hax
I'm not sure if they could or not, however they were focused on other things, and I didn't want to stop them to do experimenting.  I didn't test it much myself as I didn't want to be exploiting and I wasn't interested in causing a wipe by pulling everything around the Lord to us.

There may be a few server-side sanity checks, however at least some of it is client-side.  Waaaay, too much.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Modern Angel on October 05, 2008, 02:54:21 PM
So not surprising. I have no clue who cobbled together their servers but collision going goodbye because of client-server sync issues is where this was all headed anyway. It's the logical endpoint of the mob rubberbanding, not able to hit ranged mobs in melee, roots not actually rooting things, etc, etc. There is some weird shit going on with their servers and I don't begin to understand it.

Honestly, I love this game and I've been shilling it pretty hardcore but the technical issues are out of hand. It's a bad release from the technical side and it's grinding me down. There's a LOTRO expansion and a WLK coming up and, despite the novelty of WAR, they're both looking better with every crash and every exploit I run across.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: UnSub on October 05, 2008, 06:01:58 PM
I'm not at "this game sucks" yet, but I HATE all the running around for PvE quests. Yeah, CoH/V ruined me in that I could just call up the mission giver. Doing a quest in one area, running back to the giver only to be given another mission in the exact same spot makes me want to scream.

However... I'm enjoying the PvP at this point even on PUGs. Am a bit sick of Nordenwatch, but I tend to be on winning Order teams. I like Khaine's Embrace more, but every Order team I've been on has been just raped by Destruction. Have only been to the Gates once, but that was another Destruction blow-out.

I'll probably start to enjoy the PvP less when I hit the areas dominated by guilds and / or the PvP hardcore, but right now it's fun (as a SW).


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Triforcer on October 05, 2008, 08:12:12 PM
Finally got my wolfie and started grabbing the flag in Mourkain Temple (its incredible in PUGs that even 90% of people with mounts don't try to leave the exact second they can jump off the ledge- I've gotten the bauble every single time I've tried to get it, mostly against Order teams who have some mounted people).

Mourkain PUG wants to make me fucking scream.  The first time I got it, I sprinted to the back and started Plinking away.  Two zealots in my group, standing near me DPSing, and NOT ONE FUCKING HEAL.  I died very quickly from the bauble curse.  Look, I understand that once the curse really gets going, its better to die and hand it off in a safe backlines environment.  I get that.  But when the first two curses kill you and nobody heals you, that's just pure idiocy.

The funny thing is in that very same scenario, when I died in the backlines, NOBODY PICKED UP THE BAUBLE.  I went thirty seconds, respawned, ran back, and fucking picked it up from the middle (apparently it goes back to its initial setting place if nobody picks it up).  At that point, the zerg had moved forward and nobody thought to get the artifact.

....I hate people. 


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: schild on October 05, 2008, 08:23:32 PM
You get it every time because destroy is closer to it. Same with Tor Anroc. Shorter run.

Trust me, those Order guys leap off the first moment they can.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Triforcer on October 05, 2008, 08:52:41 PM
You get it every time because destroy is closer to it. Same with Tor Anroc. Shorter run.

Trust me, those Order guys leap off the first moment they can.

Hmm, didn't know that.  I assumed that if that were true Order would be howling about it on the boards, which they aren't.  Guess people burned through T2 too fast to notice. 


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: schild on October 05, 2008, 08:53:27 PM
People aren't howling on the boards because they're not gonna fix it, plain and simple. Lots of the maps are like that. Particularly in tier 3.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Khaldun on October 05, 2008, 08:55:40 PM
PUG scenarios are like PUG everywhere. One in ten fills you with enormous faith in the power of human beings to spontaneously click into a smoothly intuitive clockwork win-machine. The other nine make  you want to reach through the Internet to rip out some carotid arteries of your ostensible teammates.

Was pugging some Phoenix Gate tonight. Three of us coordinate an end run assault on the flag while almost everyone fights in the middle. Alert Order players tie up the other two, but I get through and get the flag. Huge crush in the middle, so I decide to go around the side. I've got only a witch hunter on my tail, no problem. Then I see that a lot of Order players are peeling out of the middle to intercept. I get across the side bridge with just a moment to spare, now I have a bit bunch behind me. I'm in /scenario telling people where I am and what's going on. Everyone just keeps fighting in the middle, because now there's only a few Order players there and they can kill them all. I have the entire rest of the Order team behind me, rooting me, doing all the damage they can, etc. I pop a potion, juggernaut, anything to keep going. One of the other players who tried to get the flag has respawned and she's trying to slow the crowd behind me. Still nobody's coming to help. I see two zealots within healing distance--they keep DPSing one of the last remaining Order people alive in the middle. I die essentially at their feet, just as I was turning towards our flag.

So bad. And pretty much the way it goes nine times out of ten.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Goreschach on October 05, 2008, 10:32:14 PM
Maybe it's because I'm a healer, but my pug experiences haven't been that bad. At least on average. I'd say I probably win a good 60% of my pugs. Maybe more. Had a straight sweep yesterday; 15ish games in a row. Damnedest thing.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: rk47 on October 06, 2008, 12:31:38 AM
Depends on your class really. DPS & Healers fare a lot better than melee when a team is sucking in general because they can still perform their duties and pick their battles. Melee class, not so much. They take risk going in front and if no one is focus firing; there's really nothing you do in front but giving points away to the enemy. Not to mention the lack of healing, and people's insistence on making a frontal charge. Quite suicidal imo.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Evildrider on October 06, 2008, 01:06:55 AM
I have ALOT of "WTF are they thinking" moments in pugs.  Alot of losses are just due to lack of common sense or tactics.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Triforcer on October 06, 2008, 05:49:55 AM
Rerolled witch elf from squig herder.  The difference is like night and day.  My very first PQ at level 5- me and a 6 witch elf go to take their home flag in Nordenwatch right after they get done capping it.  Near our cap, two 7 bright wizards and a 6 ironbreaker intercept us.  We FF one BW, then the other, and then take the ironbreaker.  Fucking awesome.

The next one, I decide that taking the back flag is too chancy, and just run behind their zerg as we are duking it out at the fortress.  I waste one healer, then another, and that's all they had and their zerg falls apart (this is a team that, according to chat, had beat basically our twelve guys 5 times in a row).  We win.

Third time, not as dramatic, but I charge up the bridge at the fort zerg to go for the archmage.  He keeps backing up, and 5 guys follow me.  I actually got a heal and two, and lived long enough to let my team cap the flag since half of the defenders chased me.

I actually came this close to deleting my Squig Herder character (21) but I'll keep him around in case they ever get an overbuff and get FOTMy.  But now, I've found my new mission in life:  waste the fucking healers and bright wizards.  I don't care that I'll die two seconds later if I can take one of those bastards with me. 


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Numtini on October 06, 2008, 06:06:19 AM
I don't think pugs are any better for particular classes. If I'm in a really bad pug, as a healer I'm unguarded and swarmed quickly and die repeatedly, often healing little other than myself. Usually, things are pretty good. If I get a bad PUG, I usually wait five minutes before getting back in the queue to minimize repeating with the same people.

But don't forget, every guild group we have doing scenarios (and I think we do pretty well) is a PUG for the other 6+ people. Most of my better PUGs have what looks like a guild group in them.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Rasix on October 06, 2008, 10:21:00 AM
But now, I've found my new mission in life:  waste the fucking healers and bright wizards.  I don't care that I'll die two seconds later if I can take one of those bastards with me. 

You're not the only one.  On my bright wizard, any time I see a marauder, tank, or witch elf running in a line that will eventually intercept me; I assume they're coming to kick my ass.  If there's a witch elf that I know is in the scenario and I can't account for, I assume they're coming to kick my ass.  Before level 10, you're a free kill.  You have no snare/root.   After then, you're still pretty much a free kill as anyone attacking the witch elf will likley break your root before you get any distance.

This is understandable.  If I'm left alone and have sufficient combustion, I'll drop DPS fairly fast and I've even dropped tanks in fairly short order.  This is with me still relying on a 3 second cast time spell as a main damage source.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Arrrgh on October 06, 2008, 10:59:39 AM
Ganking witch elves is the favorite hobby of my iron breaker.

That IB who just punted you off the clothie, shield slammed you to the ground, snared you, beat on you a while as you tickled him, punted you again just because it's fun, and then let you think you were getting away before he buried a thrown axe in the back of your head? His wizard says hi.



Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: HaemishM on October 06, 2008, 12:06:19 PM
I love that some witch elves are surprised when my witch hunter can see through their stealth. They drop back behind the lines a bit to heal up an are amazed when I come after them. On a straight up DPS to DPS fight, it's usually all about who gets the first couple of good shots. I also like when Marauders think they can tank me as if I was a squishie. SURPRISE, BITCH. You don't have tank armor and I can kill you.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: murdoc on October 06, 2008, 01:04:00 PM
I love that some witch elves are surprised when my witch hunter can see through their stealth. They drop back behind the lines a bit to heal up an are amazed when I come after them. On a straight up DPS to DPS fight, it's usually all about who gets the first couple of good shots. I also like when Marauders think they can tank me as if I was a squishie. SURPRISE, BITCH. You don't have tank armor and I can kill you.

My Marauder eats Witch Hunters. Could be a lower Tier 1/2 thing though?


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: tazelbain on October 06, 2008, 01:07:42 PM
The class balance does shift significantly between the tiers.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: murdoc on October 06, 2008, 01:34:20 PM
It could also be that the majority of Witch Hunters in lower tiers on my server are a bunch of pussies that try to run away from me. Hint: Never turn your back on a Marauder.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Lantyssa on October 06, 2008, 01:41:12 PM
Don't turn your back on any of the Melee DPS classes.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: HaemishM on October 06, 2008, 02:33:54 PM
It could also be that the majority of Witch Hunters in lower tiers on my server are a bunch of pussies that try to run away from me. Hint: Never turn your back on a Marauder.

This. Most marauders I'm going to go after, I do my best to swing around behind them so as to use the ability that nullifies their armor. If I'm stupid enough to stay in front of them and try to go toe-to-toe, yeah, I'm squished. Stick and move stick and move. Actually, trying to go toe-to-toe with much of anything is suicidal, unless it's a finger-wiggler. And they usually start running away from me the minute I get into contact if they are smart.

Strangely enough, the ones I have the biggest trouble with are DOK's and Shamans. I expect to die when fighting a tank, but both those classes seem able to stand up to me and eventually put me down without help.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Cadaverine on October 06, 2008, 03:58:40 PM
DoK's are ridiculous.  The worst one I saw was a 10 DoK vs my 9 WH, an 8 WH, and an 8 & 9 WP.  It took us a good 5 minutes to kill the guy.  We'd get him down to half, and then bam, full health again.  He wasn't spamming pots, due to the cooldown, and he didn't have any extra buffs or anything.  Was rather satisfying when we finally killed him, though.  Which happened rather quick like.  All of a sudden, he just went down like he should have under FF from 4 similarly leveled people.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Lantyssa on October 06, 2008, 04:08:50 PM
Disciples and Warrior Priests are tough.  They have a good HoT with a bit upfront, a really good long HoT, and a really nice Leech, plus a dinky damage and area heal by level eight or nine.  Coupled with the second heavest armor they may not dish out a ton of damage, but they take a lickin' and keep on tickin'.

I love my Diciple. :heart:


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Sjofn on October 06, 2008, 04:17:11 PM
I love when people turn and run from my witch hunter so much.  :drillf:

I've been messing around with the white lion. The pet is completely stupid. God help Destruction if it ever gets fixed, because even with Retardo Kitty, I'm pretty mean so far. And I don't even have Pounce yet!


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Threash on October 06, 2008, 04:18:59 PM
DoK's are ridiculous.  The worst one I saw was a 10 DoK vs my 9 WH, an 8 WH, and an 8 & 9 WP.  It took us a good 5 minutes to kill the guy.  We'd get him down to half, and then bam, full health again.  He wasn't spamming pots, due to the cooldown, and he didn't have any extra buffs or anything.  Was rather satisfying when we finally killed him, though.  Which happened rather quick like.  All of a sudden, he just went down like he should have under FF from 4 similarly leveled people.

I bet he didn't come close to killing anyone else either though.  That full heal you saw was probably the morale heal.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Cadaverine on October 06, 2008, 04:46:02 PM
DoK's are ridiculous.  The worst one I saw was a 10 DoK vs my 9 WH, an 8 WH, and an 8 & 9 WP.  It took us a good 5 minutes to kill the guy.  We'd get him down to half, and then bam, full health again.  He wasn't spamming pots, due to the cooldown, and he didn't have any extra buffs or anything.  Was rather satisfying when we finally killed him, though.  Which happened rather quick like.  All of a sudden, he just went down like he should have under FF from 4 similarly leveled people.

I bet he didn't come close to killing anyone else either though.  That full heal you saw was probably the morale heal.

Yeah, the two WP's kept me up, and he focused on me the entire time.  I think he died because he got bored, to be honest.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Rasix on October 06, 2008, 04:51:05 PM
DoK's are ridiculous.  The worst one I saw was a 10 DoK vs my 9 WH, an 8 WH, and an 8 & 9 WP.  It took us a good 5 minutes to kill the guy.  We'd get him down to half, and then bam, full health again.  He wasn't spamming pots, due to the cooldown, and he didn't have any extra buffs or anything.  Was rather satisfying when we finally killed him, though.  Which happened rather quick like.  All of a sudden, he just went down like he should have under FF from 4 similarly leveled people.

I bet he didn't come close to killing anyone else either though.  That full heal you saw was probably the morale heal.

Pretty effective keeping at 4 people busy though.  My greatest personal victories in Alterac Valley were keeping a large group of people so focused on me that they failed to react to their graveyard being grabbed.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Megrim on October 06, 2008, 04:56:50 PM
From everything i've read, the Kainites are imba in the early stages of the game but drop off towards the latter. WPs apparently go the other way.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: pxib on October 06, 2008, 06:17:49 PM
Warrior priests are actually harder to kill than Disciples. Their abilities are even more heal-centric, for which they sacrifice some damage dealing. Getting bored doesn't kill a WP or DoK, it's just that eventually the actionpoint/healpoint balance cracks and they don't have time to heal.

If you can drain them of action points (all sorts of good abilities for this) they'll die just like any healer, there'll just be a delay as they blow their heal points.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Zetor on October 06, 2008, 10:36:10 PM
This holds true for other healers as well... the #1 class I fear on my runepriest isn't the WE/marauder, it's the shaman (and other AP drainers). With no AP, I can't heal myself OR others... with an MDPS on me, at least I have options, I can try to kite (esp after I get rune of sundering), etc.


-- Z.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Khaldun on October 07, 2008, 01:32:36 PM
Yeah, I've been working my AP drain heavily into my rotation as a Chosen--I think it's overlooked how important it is to do that.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Fraeg on October 07, 2008, 05:05:12 PM
It could also be that the majority of Witch Hunters in lower tiers on my server are a bunch of pussies that try to run away from me. Hint: Never turn your back on a Marauder.

This. Most marauders I'm going to go after, I do my best to swing around behind them so as to use the ability that nullifies their armor. If I'm stupid enough to stay in front of them and try to go toe-to-toe, yeah, I'm squished. Stick and move stick and move. Actually, trying to go toe-to-toe with much of anything is suicidal, unless it's a finger-wiggler. And they usually start running away from me the minute I get into contact if they are smart.

Strangely enough, the ones I have the biggest trouble with are DOK's and Shamans. I expect to die when fighting a tank, but both those classes seem able to stand up to me and eventually put me down without help.

Doks and Shaman are a bitch and a half for me as well on my WH.  I shall soon have pistol whip, so with that and silence I am hoping that will turn the tide a bit.  Sure am glad I won't see my knockback til lvl 40 :uhrr:

WE or WH duos are definately where its at in my book.  The raping and pillaging you can do along the backlines is the sweet sweet pvp necter that has me hooked.


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: Triforcer on October 07, 2008, 05:39:05 PM
I've found that as a witch elf, I can effect the course of battle sometimes even without scoring a kill.  The other day in Ekrund, I got up on the healer ledge and started attacking (at level 8, don't really have the omg wtfpwn healer skills yet).  I got him down pretty fast, someone started healing him, I popped enchanting beauty and ran back into the chamber near their flag.  Two healers and three DPS followed me.

Sure, after about ten seconds, they killed me, but guess what happened to their tanks down in the pit in the meantime?  Taking half your team away from the most crucial objective at the most important part of the scenario (initial mid flag cap) to chase one witch elf is BAD  :drill:


Title: Re: Where's the "This Game Sucks" thread?
Post by: pxib on October 07, 2008, 09:01:52 PM
Sure, after about ten seconds, they killed me, but guess what happened to their tanks down in the pit in the meantime?
Oh yes. This is what I love most about Ekrund. Go onto the "other team's side" with my archmage or shadow warrior and pepper them with DOTs until they feel obliged to turn around and pay me attention... then run and hide downstairs. If they ignore me, I can repeat... if they follow me, as you point out, I lose the battle and help win the war.