f13.net

My wife and I are very happy. Our ideologies have never caused any stir between us. I am an athiest. My wife is a non christian diest. Her family is comprised of catholics of varying degrees of devoutness.

Recently they have discovered that we did not get married under any sort of religious style. Basically we were married on a beach by a good friend who got her notary status so she could marry us. The trouble started when her mother wanted to meet the priest that married us while they were visiting. It was at this moment in time that my wife explained to her family that we didn't have a religious ceremony. She also chose to tell her mom about my beleifs and that she herself was not a catholic or a christian, and mearly a deist. Now her family is harrasing me personally. From accusations of ruining their daughter to trying to purposefully destroy their family.

This was a complete non issue between my wife and myself. Now there is a building pressure from her family, and espcially since she has a close good relationship with most of them it is causing her stress and undue emotional pain. Several of her family members are refusing to speak to her untill she rejoins the fold and renounces her relationship with me. This particular bomb was dropped on us just minutes ago.

I really thought that these were good solid values people, who appeared to care a great deal about their daughter. It seems that they are not willing to just be happy for us.

I have no idea how to go about handling the situation. I have been very carefull to keep my mouth shut. I have not wanted to do anything that brings stress towards my wife from my direction. I want to help her, but I dont want to make any mistakes that would position me as an adversary or causer of stress. I am definitely not going to do the traditional, "Choose me or them!" thing.

Please dispense with advice or opinions. I know there are some really educated people on this board in the field of psychology.

What do you want?  What does your wife want?  That's all that matters. 

There is no educating the in-laws, so anything you say to them is likely to not be helpful.  I'd say that you and your wife need to explore your wishes and then construct a nice way of taking them to the family.  Whether or not they approve, it's your decision and they have to find some peace with that.  You have to be at peace with your decision, so find a place with all of this that helps you sleep at night. 

On a personal note: The fact that your wife still gives them this much power over her life is a concern.  She is an adult and gets to choose how to make her own life.  I recognize this as a power play on the part of her family and she really needs to draw a line in the sand if they are to ever recognize her as an independant woman in the future. 

You don't have to do the "Choose me or them" as they did it.  And if that's their position, then that's what she's going to have to do.

Your wife can sit down and explain things, but it'll always be your fault. It's always the outsiders fault, and since she's blood it can't be hers. 

Catholics are the worst of this bunch in my experience.  I've known families to renounce people and even children they've known for years because the wedding wasn't Catholic or the wedding wasn't in a Catholic church. It's ugly, and you're only seeing the tip of it.  Even if you get 'accepted' there will be comments and derision directed at you both behind your back and to your face.

Sorry dude.  Best I can say is wash your hands of them and hope your wife comes to the same decision.


Yeah, this too.

We have tried that track when she sat her mom down. At that time my wife laid out ground rules about her life. They are being very clear. They have said that its Church/Them, or Me. They aren't budging. Not one of them is talking to her other than phone calls asking her what her decision is.

Im not worried about my relationship. Im worried about the long term impact this is going to have on my wife.

Edit: I should add that my wife is super sweet and , really innocently nieve about alot of things. This is hurting her like you cant possibly imagine. My family is a bunch of A-holes, im used to this sort of game from family, so im really much unharmed. My pain is comming from seeing my wife suffer.

Don't.  If they're going to disown her for loving a good man based solely on religious beliefs, then they are making a monumental error.   Your wife just has to decide what she wants.  If the answer is you, then her parents will need to grow up and not only accept that, but be happy for her.  Trust me when I say that this is nothing but a power play on the part of the parents. 

This sucks man, sorry to hear that. My wife and I are just going through something similar with my own staunchly Roman Catholic clan. In broaching the subject on vacation recently, I quickly realized this is not the type of thing you sit in a room and talk about. Maybe that'd work for some people, but here's how I addressed it.

I hand wrote a letter to my mother. Typing an email felt too impersonal. She's really the only one who's opinion mattered to me on this subject. My siblings pay lip service to it as far as I can tell, but she was raised Roman Catholic, had the schooling, no meat on Fridays all of that. She felt like a failure for not having her eldest child and only son not doing the same for his kids.

My letter told the truth. I have a faith based on a lot of different factors but am not a religious person at all. Because of that, I questioned how my wife and I should bring up our kids. I felt the easy way out was to fake my skepticism, cowbow up and attend mass so the kids could do the same. But I didn't feel that did respect to a) the religion; nor, b) the people who follow it.

That isn't the whole truth of course. I am basically a Christian Agnostic, who sees all that metaphysical stuff through the lens of how I was raised but files it all under the heading of being a good person. That I can instill on my family without the fire and brimstone and all the ways of making them feel guilty about things in the way I was raised to believe (and which took quite some time to deprogram from myself).

But that is in the land of insulting my mother's beliefs. At the end of the day, she's no more going to change her 60+ years of belief than I am going to mold myself back into something I no longer belief. Given those implacable facts, what's the point of actively causing a rift?

Penn, I don't know if this helps your situation at all, as yours seems a lot more combative than mine. Did you ever find out from your wife if she didn't bother telling her folks because she was afraid to? Or did it simply never occur to her that this'd be an issue? That's rhetorical as that won't help within this discussion, but I can tell you my own siblings conduct much of their religious stuff for fear of disappointing our mother. And that's really no way to live.

I can't relay personal experiences, since I don't have any in your shoes, but my mother faced a similar situation with my Catholic grandparents. My dad was a garden variety non-religious agnostic/atheist. Not a religious bone in his body. Grandma was not too pleased. The compromise my mother came up with to appease my grandparents was taking us kids to church. So the long and the short of it is that my sister and I were 'raised' roman catholic in a family with an agnostic father and a mother who was waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too smart to buy into the church's falderal. I'm not sure I'm happy with having been raised Catholic, but that is what I am now. I don't go to church, but once you're raised a catholic, its sorta like being raised Jewish. You may eat pork, but you're part of that culture, no matter what.

She really never thought it was going to be an issue. Im sure there is more behind this than just "religion". I just cant put my finger on it. Weve been married going on two years now, and this stuff came up during their visit 4 months ago. I proposed to her up in michigan at her parents house, during christmas, they didnt appear this type of crazy when i was up there. We were engaged for nearly a fricken year on top of that, We met in sept 05, engaged that christmas, married in october the next year.

This really did smack us in the face from somewhere out in left field. I would have thought that if they were really the zealots that they are comming across as, there would have been questioning for me when I asked for permission to do the proposing. Unless they made assumptions about the "type" of guy their daughter would marry and never thought to ask questions. I am also theorizing that she never shared with them that she wasnt interested in catholic doctrine and now they blame me for swinging her from that type of faith.

She has assured me that I am the one for her.(She just got off the phone) I left the room for the conversation. This all unfolded really fast this morning. They have completely written her off. Even though thats out of the way it doesnt mean its easier for her.

Im just looking for advice on behavior and speech that will help her instead of cause more issues. Seriously, I hate my family, and dont waste second thoughts on them. I have no idea how to console my wife. I dont even know how to emotionaly identify with her for empathy, or sympathy. I guess im kind of broken. Common sense tells me this is painfull for her, but i really cant visualize it.

My parents went through the same kind of deal that Engels' did but worse since I'm guessing they're a generation older. My mother was Catholic from a seriously Irish Catholic family and my father was a lip service paying Anglican. In order for them to get married in the Catholic church (and without a church wedding none of her family would have shown up) my dad had to take Catholic lessons from a priest and they had to promise to raise their kids as Catholics.

Five years into their marriage the local priest shows up at the door and accuses my mom of using birth control because there'd been no kids. What he didn't know was that she'd had three miscarriages and was miserable about it. She had my dad throw him out on his ass and that was the end of her career as a Catholic. My brother and I were never even baptised and the only time we were ever in any church was for family weddings and funerals.

Frankly, I'm amazed that this is happening to you. I thought that kind of silliness went out of style 40 years ago.

You have to ask her, not us, what she needs from you.  What I need from my wife differs from what she needs from me, and we both differ from everyone else.  This is something you learn over time with someone, and this is your first big exposure to it. (For example, my wife says "leave me alone", but I never do it for more than 10 mins.  It gives her time to cry - because she doesn't like doing it in front of me - but then I go in and see if she wants to talk or just wants me to give her hugs.

The worst thing you can do, imo, is treat this like it affects you more than it does.  That's an emotional betrayal.  Tell her you understand if you do, but don't try to pass off you're feeling more than you do. That's how I do things, at least.


It's very much alive and well.  My coworker had to do the same thing as your father for the same reasons on her husband's side 3 years ago.  Despite not being a practicing Catholic, her husband wouldn't even think of doing anything else because of family pressure and how embarrassed HE'd be to have to confront his family.  She's pregnant now, much earlier than she wanted to be, because of pressure from him and his family not to take birth control now that she's "Catholic."

The whole scene's really fucking ugly.

Damn, that's tragic. I wish I could offer advice, but I have no experience dealing with in-laws, or catholics.

Would it placate them if you renewed your vows in front of a priest perhaps?

She went for a walk after the phone call. What you said makes sense. Im going to go with this in a manner that works for us.

That's a really shitty situation. People who act like that are frankly mentally ill in my view.  This is the functional equivalent of a death in the close family for your wife so you need to just be supportive for whatever she needs as she grieves. I suspect that after a while the family may come back to reality. It seems odd that they weren't close enough to actually come to the wedding (thus only finding out about its circumstances 2 years after the fact) yet are so bent out of shape about the religion nonsense.

Wow, you are in a tough position there mate.  Best advice I can give is...

Never say anything bad about her family.

Be supportive of her and her choices, but do not change your core beliefs.

This.

15 years ago, a co-worker of mine had a daughter who was so sick they called in a Priest. He wouldn't administer last rites because she hadn't been baptized in the same religion (while ago, some Christian denomination that escapes me atm). I'd love to believe these were exceptions, but I read too much to have lost hold of that belief long long ago. But again, no reason to bring it up with my Reader's Digest and occasionally GMA family.

Tough situation.

Be supportive, as others mentioned.  Make sure your wife has what she needs.  Other than that, tell the family members that are attempting to disown her that you'll both be there for them when they decide to let you back into their lives.  It opens the door to them so they only have themselves to blame by being assholes. 

Hopefully time will show them their own ignorance. 

Her going to church would be a lie.  They want to belive you are responsible, but the fact is she cannot believe what they want her to.  Belief doesn't work that way.

She needs to make it clear to them her choice is Lie About Belief in Their God For Their Happiness/Be Truthful and you're not a factor in that choice.  At that point, they have the choice of Be A Part of Daughter's Life/Go Away.

And listen to Nebu.

You should secretly have them killed.  It'll be easier to console the wife.  I know I would prefer that to dealing with bitchy parents.  Srsly.

Is the main problem that she's no longer Cathlolic or that you are an atheist? If it's the first thing then really it's up to your wife to decide what she believes in and whether or not she wants to return to the fold. All you can do is support her decision. If it's the latter you should look into the Unitarian Universalists. Belief in a god is not a requirement to be a member but her parents don't have to know that :awesome_for_real: If somebody put a gun to my head and said "join a church or die" that's who I, as an atheist, would pick. Your wife might enjoy being a member as well.

just wonder what the hell you do in that church

"We gather together to ask the lord's bles..er, ask the diety's ble...er, fuck it"

I'm not married, but I want to provide a view somewhat different than what I've seen here.  I don't present it as necessarily the best idea, but depending on the specific facts of your situation, perhaps it is feasible.

If your family doesn't live near you, I'd think seriously about whether superficial acquiescence to their demands would work.  If its as simple as saying "Yep, I saw the light, we're Catholic now, kthxbai" then maybe saying that isn't a terrible idea.  Now, if they are near enough to demand all sorts of conforming behavior (weekly mass attendance, first communion/confession for any eventual kids, etc) that wouldn't work.  It could also embolden them to make other demands.  I don't know them, you do.  Some people are satisfied with just hearing the words, and the REALLY hardcore demand more than that.  Ab's advice could be far, far better depending on your specific details.

Is that the "sacrificial," Thomas More-ish, stand by your principles unto death position?  No.  But your primary concern is minimizing your wife's pain, not taking some sort of abstract moral stand against the primitive rednecks and their laughable beliefs in an imaginary sky god.  Whatever you do, your solution has to be about what results in the best practical situation for your wife, not a solution that makes some sort of political point while leaving the inlaws even angrier. 

Just be prepared for hard times regardless of decision.  My other half has a mother who holds just as much sway as it sounds your family is trying to hold and it's basically destroyed our marriage.  She refuses to walk out and foreclose on the house as that is just childish, but her mother keeps calling her every other day and telling her to do so just to be rid of me.

In-laws with cycles of abuse and ties that bind are VERY difficult to overcome for some people.  She has to be willing to put the phone down and not talk to them until they are ready to accept you and her's relationship.  And I do agree that it is strange that you were married a while back in a non-denominational ceremony yet they didn't attend?  Were they not invited or did they just choose not to attend?  It is odd that they are bringing this up after the time that has passed.

Wow dude that sucks, and I feel for ya.

Totally crappy situation to be in the middle of, and the only thing I can possibloy compare to in my own experience was with an old girlfriend who was Baptist and whose family was convinced I was a heathen sinner when she told them I was Agnostic. I was raised to be religious, and came to a decision about religion and it's usefulness, and when I explained my system of not questioning the things we can't comprehend, both she and her parents seemed to understand. Being a Baptist didn't keep her from being a slut who cheated on me anyway.

I also can't help but think that this has more to do with you being "Atheist" than anything. This is the equivalent of telling a religious person that you are a Satan worshiper, because you are either evil or need to be saved. Atheists believe there is no God, so saying you're an Agnostic (believing in a higher power we can't comprehend or name and not to question or believe things you can't definitively prove), might actually have been slightly more acceptable.

I agree with the advice given so far, about being supportive, giving it some time and letting her know that this kind of thing shouldn't effect what you already have. The parents injecting this so far after the marriage is something that also weighs in your favor, because if they had objections to you or your beliefs they should have voiced them before you were married.

I also don't know if the main issue here is the religion you (don't) practice, as it is the marriage not taking place with a religious ceremony. If it's the ceremony they really want, tell them and your wife you have no objection (even if you do) to them giving you a second "religious" ceremony to make the marriage "recognized by God".

You planned your wedding to the point that your friend got notary status to conduct it, and you picked a venue. Given that you proposed at her parents' house, did your planning include inviting them? I'm not saying you did anything wrong, just wondering the circumstances of their non-participation in the wedding. Could there be a perception that you decided to exclude them, could that be exaggerating the situation, and could that be addressed?

My best friend is from a Dutch Presbyterian family and he married an American Jew. They had a Jewish wedding conducted by a Jewish marriage celebrant. His staunchly Presbyterian mother stood next to me and as they exchanged vows she screamed and fainted onto me and another guy. The sheer joy of the occasion overpowered his mother's coldness, but she never accepted his wife. They remain happily married and now have a child.

Things stayed icy between them and his mother, but they would determinedly visit her every Christmas and put up with her attitude. Eventually things thawed a little with the emotion of visiting her in hospital when she was dying, but never fully. It's not a sore point now - they have made their own lives and what they have is awesome.

That's all sorts of fucked up.  It's your life you are talking about.  If they don't like it and can't reconcile the idea, I say, "fuck 'em".

I'm not married, so take it with a grain of salt, but my grandparents on my mom's side were kinda obstinant fucktards with oldschool beliefs that they would not change for anything.  I can totally imagine them doing the same kind of shit.  I remember when it was a big deal because my aunt married A CATHOLIC, who had A BEARD!!!!!  OMFG, THE SKY IS GOING TO FALL AND THE WORLD IS GOING TO END.

Convert to Catholicism. They're mostly atheists anyways.

If you're really apposed to it, just tell them you would convert but you plan on having children and don't want to let their priests near them.

If they weren't at the wedding and didn't bother talking about the ceremony for two years then I don't see how they could be that close to her in the first place.  And in hindsight she should have never said you were an atheist, it would have been radically easier to just lie.

Catholicism is all about guilt so it is incredibly easy to cut out family members if you think it will wound them and make them feel bad and guilty about what they did.  If you can make a person feel guilty then it validates yourself.  If you weren't raised Catholic you probably wouldn't be able to understand, it is fucked up, guilt and love are intermingled.  It is much worse in families that call themselves Catholic but don't bother going to church unless it's Easter or Christmas, they get extra fiery because they feel guilty for not adhering to the faith enough and so go apeshit on anyone who is adhering less than they are so that they can feel above them.  It is extremely important not to feed or validate her families desire to make her feel guilty.  Do not let her phone them and start crying, that is exactly what they want.  Do not get angry and emotional.  If they think they are affecting you and hurting your marriage then that will make them very happy and only encourage them.

My family is Catholic and my Dad's mother didn't like my mother so she was very cold and didn't talk to them much.  My Dad's counter threat worked quite well.  He said that cutting people out is a two way street and that if his mother didn't knock it off she would never meet, hear or even see a picture of any grandchildren ever.  My grandmother was forced to drop all her bullshit when I was born.  I was the first grandchild though so it was an extra potent threat.

Oh, also:
Happy doesn't mean anything, it is besides the point.  It is probably ingrained in her family that if you are a legitimately happy person then you are doing something wrong.  This life sucks and its only purpose is to get into the next, they think you have sabotaged seeing her for all of eternity.  You will never be able to reason with them.

FIFY

I agree with this ^ 100%.


My family had the whole "Irish Troubles" right in the family and I grew up through out it all. Mom was no meat on Fridays Catholic and my dad was protestant. I dont speak with anyone in the family anymore.

Oh hey, there's an idea - tell the in-laws that their words on religion have struck a buried chord in you, and you've joined a church. Then invite them to a Black Mass.

I'll echo the "you don't see this much anymore" sentiment.  At least from Catholics, anyway.  I've known more than a few scary ass protestants who'll drone on and on about the cosmic zombie Jew, but Catholics have pretty much left that shit behind unless they're from the old country.

Hearing all this is so strange. The religious fervour died out in my family along with my grandparents. Most are just barely Catholic enough to get themselves married and buried in the church and the rest are agnostics. I don't think we have a single religious fanatic left. I honestly thought that's how it was with most Catholic families in North America at least.

I'm very glad that my Irish background expresses itself purely with heavy drinking at family parties and not so much with all the religious stuff.

Something about this story seems...off.  I don't get how this comes out of the blue after two years.  If they were such religious nutcases, wouldn't that have surfaced long before?  I'm not at all questioning your honesty, Penn - I am wondering if there isn't another piece of information that either you or your wife isn't aware of.  In other words, is it possible that this is only an excuse the family is using to attack you and it's really something else that's at the core of it?  I just don't get how it goes from zero to "him or us" in the blink of an eye.  Seems there would have been warning signs, at the very least.

Sorry you have to go through this, in any case.  Hopefully your wife will one day realize that she is ultimately better off without that kind of judgemental family pressure.

I hate to drop the turd in the punchbowl, but is there something about your ethnic/racial background that could have set this off?  My first marriage, supposedly my in-laws were against me over religion (they were fundies).  I found out much later that it was really about me being too brown.  Irreconcilable "religious issues" can make a good cover for racism (in that case, "Serpent Seed" theology made the two inseparable).

--Dave

Practicing Catholics hate the idea of their own marrying non-Catholics. Christians in general don't like the idea of their own marrying non-christians. The Bible warns of yoking yourself to unbelievers through marriage. So, many families get upset when that happens.

Two things come to mind here. #1 - Her family is pissed off that she's left the fold, and you represent the new direction she in taking in her life. It's easy to demonize you as the problem instead of confronting the fact that she is no longer interested in a common faith with them. They are also pissed that they are losing control over her life. Families want to make sure that they have common bonds and influence over the members because they are family. When those bonds start to show signs of breaking, sometimes they go into crisis mode. Similar situations happen when they find a member is gay, for example.

#2 - Your wife is going to feel betrayed. The family was supposed to love and protect her, and it failed miserably. She might also blame herself and/or you in the long run. These kind of things can't be ignored by simply hoping time will salve the wounds. I'd recommend that she talk to someone professionally about the situation to make sure that she can deal with these new issues. They also might have good suggestions on how to reconcile with her family, or just to simply help her move on.

Mahrin's also right. Since we don't know, is there a racial difference between you? That could be a large problem by itself.

Some of the advice here really helped me help her deal with the situation. She put her foot down with them, and told them that they are not going to be able to influence her life like they desire to do. They have completely cut off ties with her. After a long walk she came home and was vastly more unbothered than i assumed her to be. I should not have underestimated her strength. Lesson learned. Thank you for the advice though, some of it i think is lasting and should prove usefull in the future.

Great update!

The current detente isn't likely to persist through her folks' deaths though. Both of my folks have gotten more religious as they've aged, but also more forgiving about the antics of their son, though not without that rough patch mentioned earlier. Of course, it's the sort of condescending forgiveness based on my seeing the light eventually, but who am I to begrudge of their notion. And hopefully having another sixty years alive, who's to say I won't :-)

Major life-changing events help people take a longer/wider view. You and she having kids, one of the parents passing away suddenly or after a long illness, a life changer for a sibling, you and she moving to another country for a few years (absence and fond hearts and all that).

Life is nothing if it's not accidental change.

Glad she's feeling better and put her foot down.

Just remember it's not over.  Something like this hurts for quite some time, even when you know it's the right thing to do.  Be there for her when it surfaces, and remember counselling is always an option.

Good luck, man.  Rough situation, any way you cut it.  Like others here are saying, just be there for her however you can. 

what Lantyssa said.

I agree, and I hope you both make it out ok. The lesson here is hers to learn in the long run.

Lantyssa makes a good point. I think counselling is in order as well.

Yea, its amazing what righteous anger can do  :awesome_for_real:

If you really want to sort things out (and possibly give you leverage) get her knocked up asap.

Grandparents cutting themselves off from grandkids ?

Not a chance in hell.

These are Catholics -- if the baby isn't baptized things are going to get even uglier (hard for me to imagine how it could but I'm sure his in-laws will figure something out).

Yes, children solve all problems in marriage. :awesome_for_real:

In Australia, babies solve all problems. $5000 Baby Bonus as a lump sum from government for every baby you produce (http://www.centrelink.gov.au/internet/internet.nsf/payments/maternity.htm). Sure took us off the ageing population index. It has become known as the Plasma TV Bonus.

So wrong...



In Canada there is the infamous baby bonus as well but if you earn more than the average Canadian you are not eligible to collect. 

Hell, I get more of a tax deduction on my US tax return for spawning than I would from the Canadian baby bonus.

Was there a recent death in the family?

I had a seemingly rational branch of the family go suddenly uber-religious because one of their siblings died. Understandably, they took comfort in their religious beliefs. However, for reasons I've never bothered to learn, they went from casual Christians to raving nutcases. Perhaps they had a new pastor. *shrug*.

In any case, my father was suddenly taking a lot of shit from them over the fact that he hasn't been to Mass since HIS dad died, and technically belongs to a Lutheran church he never bothers attending. I know if flowed over onto my mom too and to one of my dad's sisters.

Luckily, my Dad, my Mom, and the sister in question really disliked that branch of the family anyways.

Point being -- if one of them underwent a religious crises, or an emotional crises that sparked a renewed religious interest, it's possibly that's what caused the sudden interest in the state of you and your wife's souls.

I'm aware.  Just buried the last one in my family that disaproved of Elena not getting baptised.  Won't mean they won't stop questing for that young immortal soul. 

Also, it's uber funny to say 'You don't get to see your Grandkid.  Ever.  You Old Fucking Hag.'

Trust me.

My Internet asshole opinion? Those people can go fuck themselves gently with a sharpened silver spoon. That's not the way family is supposed to act.

Fuck that. Fuck internet asshole opinion. You pick up the phone and tell them to take their bibles and shove them up her ass. Fucking Christians not understanding the core fundamentals of Christianity. Tell them to die in a pope hat fire. That's bullshit, sorry.

Amen ( :uhrr:) to that.  It's funny (in a very unfunny way) how people fuck up the basic tenets of family and religion.  This is the opposite of what a family is supposed to do, and if there is a God, the opposite of how he wants his followers to behave.

It's not even a case of 'If there's a God'.

If you take that bloke Jesus at his word, this is NOT how they should be behaving.

However, you're only hearing half the story.  It could be that Penn is a crackhead and his wife a whore. 

 :why_so_serious:

Maybe Penn is a crackhead. Maybe his wife is a whore.

Does that matter? The in-laws are still being assholes.

I deliberately witheld saying owt till he'd sorted the situation out.  If I was going to dispense actual advice, it would probably have been just North of Signe's.  There's no arguing with people who would cut off their daughter for the invisible sky man.  None.  As a father, I find their actions inexcusable to the highest degree.

Now I'm just having my fun.

Bear in mind it's the internet. 

To be fair, if Penn is an actual crackhead and it then leads to his with becoming a whore....no, you're right, they're still assholes.  But outside of cutting her out of the family, that would be a little more understandable.

Jesus at his word would still have the family treating them better.  It's Jesus' whole schtick...

I agree, but there is that verse in the New Testament about brothers leaving brothers, sons leaving fathers, etc. if such is necessary to follow Jesus.  Jesus wasn't who the evangelicals would like him to be, but its not completely accurate to say that he was a raging hippy in perfect 100% agreement with the Democratic Party 2008 either.   Both sides just pick bible verses out of context to support the theory that Jesus would be a card-carrying Democrat/Republican.   

That's exactly the kind of behaviour that turned me away from organized religion. Many people there haven't even bothered to read the Bible let alone understood any of the things contained therein but they want to tell me how to live a good life. Thanks but no thanks.

Also the amount of old testament bullshit these people still cite is outrageous. Hint: If you believe that Jesus is more than just a prophet (say for example that he actually is god's son) then the new testament is the place you should look. Theologists would now say something about the change from comdemning god to compassionate god and the fact that Jesus died for our sins and the concept of original sin died with him. That it also was a change to a more laicistic view of religion and so forth.

Basically people acting like your in-laws haven't even grasped the most basic tenets of christianity namely that of compassion and forgiveness and should shut the fuck up.

Every time somebody says a stupid thing and argues that it's "in the bible" I die a little inside. If the proponents of ID for example had actually bothered to read it they would have recognized that the evolution as proposed by Darwin doesn't contradict the Bible at all. That not even the catholic church has anything against Darwin's teachings and considers it 'compatible' with the faith should have at least clued them in.

I hate it that such an awful lot of people try to justify their own petty and misanthropic world view with the teachings of a historic figure that was the epitome of compassion and forgiveness and a "live and let live attitude". They should just be ashamed of themselves.

You're right, Tri.  He was a raging hippy well left of today's Democratic party. ;D

In many ways, yes.  But there are a few quotes from the New Testament that haven't exactly aged well (the "sons, leave your fathers" stuff, calling a Gentile woman a dog and saying his message wasn't for her, etc). 

The only point I'm making is that caricaturing Jesus as an "I'm ok, you're ok" guy who never espoused any definitive views or had any judgmental opinions on anything beyond "be nice, cosmically, man" is just as inaccurate as caricaturing him as a southern evangelical.  As I said, everyone just projects their own worldview onto him.

You have a point, Tri, but I doubt that emotionally blackmailing your family was on the list of Jesus' approved (tm) conversion techniques :P

Why, yes, your honour, that was my point.

How about agreeing to "watch" the kid and then taking it for a covert baptisim at the Church.  I seem to recall hearing about that little gem once before.

I have yet to see a church with a drive-thru baptism window.  I suppose you could do it if you made visits beforehand establishing yourself as the child's legal guardians, but you'd think that a stoutly Catholic family would have at least some qualms about lying to a priest in order to get a holy sacrament administered.

I'm clutching this phrase close to my heart and awaiting the day that my wife says "OK, let her have it!"

There is no winning arguements with Fundies.  The difference between the Catholic church and David Koresh's band of merry followers?   The number of followers.

True, the stories I'd heard were about Baptists, not Catholics.

A famous family story is that my mom's two brothers got horribly drunk and baptized me themselves. Apparently, they'd heard that in an emergency  two Catholics in good standing could do that.  They even remembered to bless the beer before dousing me with it.

Moved Paelos' latest religion discussion over to there:

http://forums.f13.net/index.php?topic=14235.0

Ah, to that place I don't go. It's probably for the best.

I read up on that at one point (IIRC I had a friend in high school who wanted to convert to Catholicism but didn't want to do a big church thing, so I was trying to figure out if I could baptize her myself in a drinking fountain).  Turns out that such baptisms are "better than nothing", but that's about it; they're only appropriate in cases where someone's about to die, wants desperately to be baptized before they die, and they can't find a priest in time.  You're supposed to use the purest water you can find (not beer), and I there are some special disclaimers you're supposed to throw into the standard baptism rite if you're not a priest or otherwise not sure if the baptism is valid.  And after all that, if by some miracle the dying person you baptized pulls through, they're supposed to go see a priest ASAP and get baptized "for real".  Because the emergency layperson baptism is the spiritual equivalent of a spare tire; you don't want to rely on it for the rest of your life.

Sadly, I don't think your nonconsensual beer baptism officially "counted".

Well rats. I guess it's Limbo for me then!

Nope, you've had the opportunity to convert through knowledge of Jesus and haven't taken him up on his offer. I'm pretty sure this means you're going to the hot place.

Maybe Paelos should threaten to stop speaking to you for your own good, we could start another thread about it and derail it into a debate on Christianity :awesome_for_real:

Also since I don't think I've mentioned it yet, good luck Penn and glad to hear your wife's coping.

That's awfully optimistic of you.   :grin:

Sorry Man, pope says  Limbo is out (http://galloway.wordpress.com/2006/10/06/limbo-pope-abolishes-first-circle-of-hell/)

I guess all those souls there get to go somewhere else or something.

Your approach so far sounds like an extremely good one any confontration sounds like it can only lead to more aggravation for both sides I mean I really can't see what you can say or do til they cool down or see reason. It sounds like there's more to this than mere religion perhaps and I think it's completely your partners job to sort this out they are her parents you shouldn't be left having to carry a burden of guilt for something you do or don't believe in. She should find out what their real reasons are and if it just religion she should explain that her beliefs are of her own choice and the way they are behaving is really hurting her and you. A good comeback against true catholics is always the this isn't very Christian of you they can never squirm out of that one believe me I'm Irish catholic ethnicity it's a charm. Oh and also remember your not the first person to not got along with their in-laws its a fairly common thing so don't let it get to you.

Christ, if they're that pissy now, what the hell are they going to do when you launch the bomb 'Yeah and We Totally Had Sex Before Marriage.  LOTS.'

 :grin:

Oooo... yea, you guys should totally make a sex tape and post it on youtube.

And put a message in it that asks people to call your in-laws and tell them about it.

Youtube deletes that stuff very quickly.

Youporn, however, would be glad to host it.

I thought Paelos had given up religion in favour of beer!

That's those crazy baptists.  :ye_gods:

I'm sorry.  I always get religion and beer confused.  I should pray to St. Pauli Girl for forgiveness.

You know, I was raised Catholic. I'm that nominally kind of "can't quite shake it" Catholic now (as was mentioned before, it just gets in your bones somehow). My parents and siblings are varying degrees of Catholic. My grandmother said the rosary every goddamn day for as long as she was able. Not one of them gave even the tiniest shit that I married an atheist in a civil ceremony. It completely boggles my mind that people can be such assholes. ><

That's religion for ya.  I knew a girl who was disowned by her very Jewish parents because she got engaged to someone outside the faith.  They didn't go the wedding and as far as I know, have never seen their grandson. The only people grumbling at my wedding were on my wife's side and all because we had both a priest and a vicar performing the ceremony. I heard that there were people on her side who weren't happy that she was marrying someone who was raised a Catholic but at least we were getting married in a C of E church. They're lucky - if I'd had my way, it would have been a civil ceremony.  (They haven't seen their nephew and niece yet - but that's more because they actually are assholes and have never bothered to ask.)

This sounds a bit familiar. I went through with a Catholic marriage ceremony to make my wife's family happy, though my wife was already not particularly devout at that point in her life and has entirely lapsed since. Since I was baptized a Catholic, I could not get out of a lot of the flummery that even the very cool and relaxed Catholic priest we found was unable to avoid, and there were very high levels of bullshit involved. We went ahead and had our smallish own non-Catholic ceremony later in the day, which we all very much enjoyed.

My mother-in-law became aware that I was an agnostic some time ago, and put a lot of pressure on myself and my wife early on because of it. Our strategy was largely just to bend in the wind--say pleasant, non-commital things, ignore her, and try not to be around her too much, which over time got easier due to distance and her increasing unwillingness to travel. I never lied or professed anything I didn't believe in, but I learned quickly not to be pugnacious or aggressive about religious issues, either. There wasn't any reward for doing so. At times, my mother-in-law could be almost funny by accident--after one visit we found a ton of St. Jude medals and pictures hidden in our books and drawers and under my pillow. Though of course it was also annoying to know she'd been poking through our stuff when we weren't in the room.

I think you've got to have your spouse on your side in this, though--that's the first task, to make sure that you're both determined to make it a non-issue, and have an agreement that the spouse whose relatives are causing the issue is the first line of defense. It's no good when you're left exposed to an attack that you feel is very difficult to respond to because it's not the people you grew up with and you don't have the same sense of familiarity or intimacy that lets you fight back against something seriously intrusive.

Over time, most people just let this stuff slide. If they really won't, and keep at you year after year after year, eventually you have to quietly let there be consequences--phone calls unanswered, family gatherings skipped, cards unsent, contacts unmade. Don't announce this or make a big show out of it--it's best done slowly and accumulatively. If eventually someone asks honestly, "Why don't we see you so much?" then you give an honest answer: because you are unprepared to embrace who we are, only who you want us to be.

I promise im not a crackhead, and she's not a whore, hehe. That gave me some chuckles though. I've learned more in the last day or two. This info is from her sister who has been in europe for a couple of months and just returned.

My wife is not sad anymore and has moved into really pissed off teritory.

Her mom recently lost her own mother and is now taking care of a pretty tart disabled old man who is pretty mean and nasty.(<-----We knew about this) (This info from the sister, we didnt know any of this -------->) Her sister is sure this grandfather has a pretty substantial estate and will. He is soon to go.  Shes not part of the crazies. She said the old man is making threats about the estate based on devoutness of his family and wether or not they are pious enough to inherit from him. They had a pow wow with the sister when she got back and told her that she has to talk some sense into my wife. That being married to me is going to ruin the family (bye bye money tree).

I've got things that I want to say to them. My wife won't let me though. However, some small hope, her sister told my wife to fight the good fight. My wife and I are pretty sure theres only one relative thats going to know their nieces and nephews when we have em.

Its so far fetched I'm not sure i beleive it. However, you can't make this stuff up. From my own family experiences, this sort of crap is all over the place. Never seen my wife mad or angry even one time, until she got off the phone with her sister.

Ohh, forgot to add. The grandfather kept his estate a secret, sopposedly to keep the vultures from circling. It was a slip on an attorneys part that let the cat out of the bag when my wifes grandmother passed. Which interestingly enough happened about 7ish months ago. They didn't tell my wife about her grandmother for a couple of weeks or so.

And I really thought these people were nice, I even envied my wife her family life, after comparing to mine. Not so much now.

Your wife's family is sick. And your wife's grandfather is a mean old bastard.

To be fair people do fuckwittery like this for stuff much more trivial than religion. A friend of my brother-in-law is no longer speaking with his sister because he married a woman who was 10+ years older than himself. I'm sure we can come up with a whole lot of stupid reasons for domestic dispites like this one that have nothing to do with religion.

And like Penn just said, this isn't really about religion anyway, it's about money.

Can not stress this enough, do not say anything bad about your wife's family in front of your wife.

This is very true. We have a very dysfunctional relationship with various members of my wifes family.  Like her brother who we don't talk to on account of the woman he married. Not because we don't approve - well, it is because we don't approve but we don't approve because she's a mean, spiteful, rude, selfish, vindictive bitch-troll cunt who he's better off without (if it weren't for the three kids involved).  She has managed to alienate most of the members of his family (most recently his grandmother) and most of his friends and we're now just watching from the sidelines waiting to see how she pisses off the last relations who are still talking to them.


It does actually sound like the plot of a Grisham novel (perhaps "The Summons"?)

Crikey, what hypocrisy.  Hopefully your wife can see what her family truly values most, because it sure ain't religion or family.

One thing that sort of vaguely occurs to me is that it's not entirely impossible that the grandfather/inheritance thing is being exaggerated or even invented precisely to try and force proper religious behavior. I mean, the grandfather part is entirely credible, sure--I had a friend when I was growing up whose very large extended family was dominated by just such a wealthy old Catholic elder patriarch who very much manipulated his children and grandchildren's religiosity with pursestrings. But I've also known some ardently religious people to be shockingly willing to invent contrivances that they believe will force people to convert or comply with religious demands.

That would make sense if it had been that way from the beginning, but Penn says it came two years after they got married.  You could kind of tell something was missing from the story, and I think the Greedy Assholes subplot fits quite nicely.

I don't understand why they can't just lie to the silly old man - unless there's even more drama than we know about. Perhaps some aunt or cousin spilled the beans about the atheist wedding so there'd be more money for his side of the family.

This family does not sound like one that is above backstabbery, blackmailing, and general bullshit. I would in fact, tell them to take their money and shove it up their ass. They're just sick.

What he said.  This is important.

Families suck.  Tell them to all fuck off. 

My advice might suck, too.  Just so you know.

Crotchety old grandpa trying to extort religious conversions by holding over an inheritance?

Yeah, fuck these people. Fuck them in their tiny little earholes. Not just for the grandfather being a douchey cunt, but the rest of them for letting him get away with it just to get his filthy money. Gaggle of twats.

You should invite grandpa over for dinner.

And then eat him.  :awesome_for_real:  :why_so_serious:

And tell him that if you don't get some of that money any kids you have won't be baptised and he'll never get to see his great grandchildren in heaven.  You need the money because you're only going Catholic if you can do it in style with expensive private Catholic schools and University :awesome_for_real:.

We have decided together that we are not going to communicate with them further. We don't need the stress such affiliations will continue to cause.

If you put long wavy hair on your manga avatar, Pennilenko, you would look like Geddy Lee!  How can anyone not be nice to Geddy Lee?

Good on yer!

Lead Singer To My Favorite Band Ever!!!!!!!! Although with the manga avatar i got really close to what i look like now.

Your wife will be unhappy about this for a while, but long term, it sounds like the healthy decision. I talk to my dad as little as humanly possible and it's good for me. Probably good for him also, since I have years and years of pent up anger to unleash on him one day.

It was mostly her idea, while i kept my mouth shut and agreed with her. Mainly we are both kind of disgusted right now. My family has done some dirty dirty crap, but this kind of takes the cake.

So it was more about money than it was about religion. Honestly, that makes more sense to me given how long you were married before it came up. I always thought that if they were serious about the religion part, they would have found that stuff out much earlier.

Sounds like a class-act bunch over on that side of the family. Cheers to you for cutting off that limb of crazies.

Wow interesting outcome had a feeling there was a little more to this than just religion from the offset at least ye know where you stand now to some extent. Wonder would it even be worthwhile doing up a mock catholic wedding just to get in on the cash cow... hmm maybe forget I said that  :nda:

Non-corporate Jesus approves.

(http://dl.getdropbox.com/u/82194/jesus%2520thumbs%2520up.jpg)

If there is one thing which trumps the kool-aid drinking religious types, it's money.  Sad to see, but glad y'all decided not to play that game.

Hopefully gramps will see the 'devoutness' for what it is.  If your wife wants to show them true devotion, she should write gramps a letter explaining everything. ;D

How about talking with the priest of your in-laws? No good Christian minister would encourage this behavior. Unfortunately, the tension will never go away but the minister can demonstrate in no uncertain terms that your in-laws are behaving in opposition to Christ's teachings.

Oh, and just wait until you have kids and tell your in-laws they won't be baptized...

edit: and now that I am not clueless and finished the thread, that priest would be VERY interested to know about the whole money thing. Catholic tithes and all.