f13.net

Aha, did the stupid title get your attention?

Clearly in Provi 90% of the time we are fighting against or trying to fight against Interceptors & fast HAC setups.  Clearly we are losing atm.  Over the course of several painful lessons I've come to the realization that in a engagement metagame dictated entirely by speed many ships just aren't worth flying.

Here is my unofficial list to start us off, of what is worth flying for pvp in Provi atm.  I'm only going to do cheaper ships & this is not meant to be definitive, rather to spark discussion and be molded into a good list for all of us to refer to and so that we can make sure we have some ship+fittings from this list in the area so we can actively hunt and destroy the smaller gang and solo operators that raid Provi most often.

This list will ignore the fact that on offensive ops we have to be very worried about sniper fleets warping to gates/ss's off the gate at great distance and picking us apart.  It will also ignore BS/Carrier foes as obviously -BAT- doesn't need to get into those fights by ourselves at this time.


THE LIST *cue fanfaire*

'Matar:
Frigate = Vigil (thanks Bhodi for the heads up, this is the only effective t1 tackler worth talking about, fast as balls, enough mids, on the cheap)
Interceptor = Stilletto (3 mid interceptors =  :heart:)
Destroyer = Thrasher (mean alpha destroyer)
Cruiser = Rupture (one of the 2 best dps t1's in the game, obviously we're talking AC ruptures not horrible tracking Arty)
Battlecruiser = Hurricane (good dps, not entirely paper thin)

Caldari:
Frigate = Griffin (Yes, ECM is that good, even t1 frigs with it are welcome!)
Destroyer = Cormorant (Sniping destroyer)
Interceptor = Crow (THE rocket/missile 'ceptor)
Cruiser = Blackbird (ECM 4tw)

Gal:
Interceptor = Taranis (If you can't beat em, join em?)
Cruiser = Thorax (See later in thread for setups, best t1 cruiser dps if it can get on top of a webbed target)
Cruiser = Vexor (t2 drones = ouch, see thread for drone rape setup, THX AGAIN BHODI 4 DA INFOZ)

Amarr:
Interceptor = Malediction (a black executioner? s3x)
Destroyer = Coercer (crazy high anti-ceptor dps, see Bhodi's post, thx again Bhodi!)
Cruiser = Arbitrator (drones for punch, nos/neut setups, tracking disruption setups, versatile ship)
Battlecruiser = Harbinger (Best BC alpha IG, great dps versus HAC's if we can put a web on them)

***

Ships not on the list but if you really must bring one they might still work:
Crusader (only 2 mids = no web = sad panda)
Claw (see above)
Moa (can it operate as a t1 sniper?  Do we care about sniping at this point?)
Caracal (was on the original list, we need to test if they can be effective anti-speed anti-drone ships with fast missiles, fof's etc)
Stabber (does it have the manueverability to backup tacklers quickly?  Does that matter if it has even less survivability due to its size/lack of tank when it gets there?)
Ferox (similar to the Moa in terms of situational usefulness, but slower, doesn't seem like it works for what we need?)
Myrmidon (t2 drones for punch, but the synergy isn't really there, better to field a cheaper to lose and faster alligning Vexor)
The Tier1 BC's (clearly these are designed to fit warfare links, which could be cool and at that point it might be good to have one t/f?)
Omen (can it actually be fitted to not suck? I'm working on it, will report back in a week after I've lost 3 of them)
Raptor/Ares (split bonuses are fucking fail, nobody should fly them, fly the Crow/Taranis instead)

Obvious other things go here:

-I don't know enough about destroyers, for example to really fuck up a 'ceptor how many utility slots do you need for tracking boosting?  Is there consensus that one is just That Much Better?  I'd love to hear about it.

-Interceptors aren't too expensive and they are great.  I didn't put them on the list because well obviously they are good.  Though the Crusader, Ares and Claw are not quite as good for fleet purposes without 3 mids.

DO NOT hesistate to critique and respond to this, I find myself asking before every op what to bring or what is considered most valuable.  Considering most ops seem to be going this one direction I think we can flesh out the answers to those questions at this time for some of our newer members or just people who haven't had the pleasure of dying along side us yet.

Just a note that a Thorax without an MWD is gank-bait to these guys.  I also had a lot of trouble getting drones to actually damage them in the engagements I had two days ago, so Hobgoblins are probably not the drone of choice for chasing interceptors.  I've heard Warriors have much more success.

Myrmidions can't deploy more in the way of drones than Vexors (but they can carry more). Myrmidions, though, can make a beast of a tank. If I wanted to be a real ass about it (playing bait), I could fit out a Myrmidion with 10k shields and 10k armor, 2 medium reppers, and carry 5xLight ECM drones, 5xWarrior IIs, and 5xHammer 2s and hold the armor tank for 4 minutes.

No MWD, and it's either AB or Warp disrupter -- and I could still fit 5 light nos or neuts just in case they were stupid.

I'd prefer a Vexor though. I've never figured out what to put in the highs -- right now it's just some railguns and a pair of salvagers. Drone-wise, right now mine carries 5xHobs, 5xWarriors and 5xHammers (all t1).

Since I'm collecting a whole bunch of Vexors in a nearby low-sec system, I'm open to suggestion.

Frig-wise, the Maulus is okay (can carry twin RSD's and two light ECM drones, which can be annoying at times). I don't think anyone's up to Battleships, but the Dominix is just plain evil in the hands of a skilled drone user. But what I'd REALLY love to fly is an Ishtar. All the drone bay and bandwitdh of a Domi, the speed of a Vex. Imagine a Vex that can dump 5 heavy drones at will, or dump a few waves of lights and mediums -- whatever the situation calls for?

Morat20 Quintons report of almost breaking the tank of one of the tanarises got me thinking (I know I know, bad idea)

So, this is what I came up with.

Anti-Tanaris frig popper

5 Assault missile launchers
4 racial ECMs/1 point or web
2 BCS (more damage, lol)

Absolutly needs a tackler to keep the enemy in range and from warping away.

I think 2 of those and 2 tacklers would be enough to kill them.

Quinton, how many volleys do you think you would have needed to kill one ?

Can't a fully fitted nano ship usually just straight outrun missiles so they are never even hit?

You generally can't hit interceptors with light missiles and expect it to do any damage at all. The taranis is special in that it rapes face but you have to get within 1-3km. Thus, it's very vulnerable to webs and such. And such includes light missiles.

The appropriate counter to intys is an eagle or muninn or a destroyer with a ton of tracking mods.

Yes.

I'd be interested to see how someone sets up a dps thorax.

I can't make any medium blaster Thorax fitting work if you want a MWD and any sort of defence, not enough powergrid.

This is a low SP fitting.

2x Heavy Neutron Blasters (named)
3x Heavy Ion Blasters (named)

1x Microwarpdrive
1x Warp Disruptor (20km range)
1x Stasis Webifier (named)

1x Inertia Stabilizer (named)
1x Nanofiber Internal Structure (named)
2x Magnetic Stabilizers (named)
1x Wildcard (T2 Small Rep, EANM, DC, whichever)

5x Warrior Is and 5x Light Armor Maintenance Bots or 5x Valkyrie Is

1) Phil, whats your drone navigation skill? That makes a HUGE difference on whether or not your drones can do shit, same with drone sharpshooting.

2) Rockets are going to be much higher dps on interceptors than standard missiles are, the only downside of them is range, which you can toss right out the window when you need the target within web range anyways.

This. (http://f13.7mph.com/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=263)


That's half wrong imo.  Fleet interceptors will be designed to operate outside of web range because their goal is to tackle not do dps, it'll be pure speed to orbit at 20-24km guns are immaterial.  But we've been facing mostly 'ceptors that are more solopwn setups which means dps is needed which means shorter range setups like blaster taranis, rocket crow, rocket malediction etc.


Do you actually know what DD's are considered top inty rape?  Setups etc?  We need that info badly.


We're not running up entirely against 7k+ Vaga's with full snake, though it may seem that way.  Light Assault Caracal w/ Light Percisions is going to be close to as threatening as we can be it seems.  I'm open to tracking modded Moa theories as well.


We're def talking speed Thorax setups, but the point of this thread is to bring more speed, more webs & more threat versus speed to our gangs.

Problem with that setup is....uh...what is it trying to accomplish? It has overdrive for extra speed, I get that. It has nano for better acceleration and faster MWD speed...but where is the MWD ? (Not that you can speed tank a thorax really without speeding a 100 mil in rigs). It has an absolute paper tank, the Diagnostic in the low is horrible. Pull those three lows and put in a damage control, EANM, and make room for a plate or a repper by switching to Ions/Electrons. If you need some good PVP Gallente setups just check my boy Kaker's losses, this guy pvp's and dies as much as anyone I know...and usually in pretty affordable getup.

Gallente ships aren't fast. Some can be made fast and effective, but they are usually less effective than their true speed tanking counterparts...the Minmatar. I speed tank a deimos and an ishtar, cause they have shield resists.


If you want to kill Vagas, get a rapier or Huginn. If you dont want to die as a rapier or Huginn instantly...have a friend train Scimitars or basilisks (so they can get primaried instead : )

Sure.

The best damage is the Cocerer, by far. Not coincidentally it has the lowest engagement range at about 50km.
8x Dual Light Beam IIs, Aurora S
1x Sensor Booster II (No script)
1x Tracking Enhancer II
3x Heat Sink II
     
This setup will cost about ~5 million ISK in fittings and will require significant Gunnery skills (although perhaps only an added day or two of training if you were working towards t2 sniping anyway). It should be able to do upwards of 150 DPS to interceptors traveling at speeds of 5km/sec or higher at middle ranges (~45km).

This thing quickly targets and efficiently rapes the shit out of anything small, such as pods, shuttles, or frigates, even in large fleets. A significant amount of damage can also be done to the shields of larger ships as well. However, it is a pure glass cannon, if you don't warp out as soon as you're taking moderate damage, you're fucked.

The Cormorant, however, does about 70% of the DPS of the Cocerer, however it's got double the engagement range, at 100km
7x 150mm railgun IIs (7x 125mm railguns if you're poor or don't have Advanced Weapon Upgrades V and aren't fitting a RCU)
2x Sensor Booster IIs (if you want to save money, use 2x named sensor boosters instead)
2x Tracking Computer IIs
MAPC, Mag Field Stab, or RCU (to fit a full rack of 150mm's if you don't have AWU V(RCU/150mm fit assumes AWU 4))

You can lock and and snipe at around 100km with spike s if you have maxed out gunnery skills, thats why you need the T2 guns. This is possible because they added the 50% optimal range bonus to all destroyers, and then the cormorant bonus adds another 40% if you have skill to level 4. The setup is expensive due to high demand for small rails, so if you want to save money, using 7x 125mm rails and named sensor boosters can lock at ~95km or so with a ~73km optimal with destroyer IV.

The thrasher and the catalyst are very similar; they do about 75% of the DPS of the Cocerer, with the Catalyst pulling slightly ahead. The Catalyst pretty much sucks. You should pick damage or range since they both have a 50km engagement range.

However, you CAN build the thrasher to have an absurd alpha:
7x 280mm Howitzer Artillery IIs
2x Sensor Booster
1x Tracking Computer
1x Reactor Control Unit
1x Gyrostabilizer

With decent skills this should yield somewhere on the order of 800+ (~1400 with Quake and level 4 in all relevant skills) damage before resists in your first salvo, which will instapop inties, shuttles and T1 frigs and will put the hurtin' on assault frigs. Range is excellent, particularly if you use tremor ammo (50km range!). Use this in gatecamps and other ops where mobility (and tanking!) is not as important, as you get an excellent scan resolution but can't tackle at all. Try not to die, as the 280 T2s are about 600k each.

The same setup will fit with 280mm I's and a PDS in place of the RCU in the lows. Great for getting podkills.
(AWU III) This setup is better if you completely remove the RCU/PDS and do a second Gyrostabilizer II on the lows, and replace the last 280mm II with a 250mm II. Dps is higher and so is Alpha. With (AWU V) you can do 7x 280mm II and 2 Gyro II, and still have 3 grid left for your mids.


Skills that are absolutely required:
Long Range Targeting IV (For SBIIs)
     Electronics II (Prerequisite for LRT)
Weapon Upgrades IV (Tracking Enhancer IIs, Damage mod IIs)
     Gunnery II (prerequisite for Weapons Upgrades)
     Trajectory Analysis IV (Tracking Computer IIs)
     Gunnery V (prerequisite for Trajectory Analysis)
Small Beam/Rail/Artillery Spec I (For the weaponry)
     Gunnery II (prerequisite for Small Specialization)
     Sharpshooter III (prerequisite for Small Specialization)
Destroyers IV
     Racial Frigate III

Skills that will really, really help:
Motion Prediction V
Destroyer V
Surgical Strike V
Rapid Firing V
Small Beam/Rail/Artillery Spec IV/V

For synergy purposes, monster tank isn't really needed.  If your saying we wont get more dps out of a Myrm then a Vexor perhaps Myrms shouldn't really be on the list as they are just bigger slower targets.


Spare hi slots on setups with this gang's goals in mind would be used for: Guns that can track heavy drones and rip into them, Nos/Neut (any cycle will fuck with a non booster mwd setup; or force them to pop a booster), & possibly remote repping though I doubt that will see a ton of use with most of the ships being quite mobile.  If we ended up with say 3 Vexors they could circle tank w/ 2 MRR's in the hi's to add some survivability but I think I'd rather have the drone pop'ing.


I just don't see RSD's being useful versus the fast lock times on Inty's or HAC's tbh, t1 frigs are eaten by drones if they aren't crazy fast within moments unless we can pull a quick jam.  Much rather Gal & Amarr pilots train up Matar Frig 3-4 and use a Vigil for point+web+speed, the guns are irrelevant to don't waste time training Proj unless you must.


***

TY Bhodi for the DD setup info.

I've modified the list to reflect what has been discussed so far.  Right now the only thing on the chopping block is the Caracal in my mind, perhaps we can run some effectiveness trials in the coming week as more people get into 'ceptors in -BAT-?

I was shooting at him for a while.  He was at ~17km, going fast enough that even with MWD I couldn't expand the gap.

He could have bugged out at any time.  Once he was into structure and his buddy hadn't turned up he did.

If I had a point/web on him, he would have been in trouble.

It was an example of a less then optimal setup that was prob on the cheap/low skill reqs/grabbed what was handy side but still scored a 'ceptor kill during a gangbang because once he had web on him it was over quickly.


If the balance is that poor then I for one look forward to the major ass rape of a nerf that nanofiber should be getting sometime in the future.

I played around with Gallente destroyer settings today.  I don't have all those useful skills you listed, but 75mm railguns with two tracking mods should be able to nail an interceptor, and I threw a web onto the midslot.  I noticed when I was getting raped by them the other day that they were orbiting around 10km the entire time and often entered into webbing range.  If I'd had one equipped, my drones would've dominated them.  Problem is, my gunnery skills are just too low for it right now and I really didn't want to focus on them until I was super pimped-out with drones.

Just looking at the stats on the interceptors, wouldn't the best metagame be to simply fit a couple of Energy Neutralisers, and ideally a neutrailiser drone and/or webifier drone on any ship you might be flying?

I can see if you are solo it might not be reliable, but if everyone has at least one neut in even a very small gang, aren't you going to turn off those MWDs fairly quickly?

Could anybody give an indication as to what gunnery skills you would need to hit an inty while in a destroyer? I have halfway decent skills but when I fitted 250mm arty II's on my Hyena I couldn't hit a stationary frigate while in a 13km orbit doing 3.3k. I don't know what EAS tracking is compared to destroyer tracking, maybe that was it.

I see you've killed quite a few fast ships (interceptors, nano ishtars etc) with Bouncer IIs (and sometimes even with Gardes). How does that work? You drop them at a distance (optimal is like 50km, right?) and then engage? How do you get them to actually hit an interceptor?

I'm guessing he's using the drone tracking module?  I forget the name, but it's a good one.

Re the webbing drones, the trouble with using them vs inties is that they are heavy drones.  I've never seen them used myself, but I gather that an inty can MWD away from them, usually.

If these guys are using 200dps blaster taranises then a dual web will fuck up their good day.

Edit: once they start orbiting a target a stealth bomber or two will also pop them, thanks to the precision bonuses.  Especially if they keep their mwd on to orbit like some crows do.  But be aware that getting caught alone in a SB by them would be death, as soon as they lock you up.  It's a numbers game, and you best have an RSD fitted with tracking disrupt script loaded so you can break their lock and cloak or warp out.  Alternatively, I once held a 10km/s crow (pilot with true -10 sec) away from my gang of T1 frigates for long enough for us to loot the guy who got popped then leave, just using a griffin.  Inties are hilariously bad vs ewar.  A decent blackbird fit will literally permajam several at once.

Finally, once Helm gets skilled up in his rapier then inties will pop or run.  It would render them useless flying coffins anywhere inside their engagement envelope.

About all I can bring to the table are Warrior's -- if I'm not expected to scramble/web, I can fit the drone tracking augmentor and really go to town. My warrior I's are pretty fast -- 5k+ I think -- and they hit hard, for T1 drones. (5 of them, 100% bonus due to DI 5/5, 40% bonus due to Cruisers 4/5). We'll have to check it on Sisi when we go, but I think a full flight of Warrior I's can really fuck the sort of solo-gank speed-fits we're talking here.

My drones have a somewhat limited range (40k? 50k?) unless I fit a module for it, but their range is pretty much dead along my unaided lock range, so there you go.

If Warrior I's won't do it, I'll grab some Warrior 2's. :)

Warrior IIs are cheap, a couple hundred K....well worth it.

Oh, that's right -- they're lights. I'm still used to working with a more limited budget (plus, I've been buying drones in lots of 25 when setting up PvP ships -- a few hundred k times 25 is expensive).

The wiki, the paragon of all info says on this topic

"The Caracal is a classic and widely used Caldari missile boat. Unfortunately, changes to the way certain modules work have causes Caracals to be less effective on fleet ops than they once were. If you are looking for a ship to use on fleet ops, you are better off flying the Blackbird."

I completely agree. A blackbird is way more useful than a caracal in a fleet environment.

As a member of Euro Squad, I am obliged to say that the Moa is much improved for anti-support work, and will almost never get primaried in fleet fights.

I want to try one out on the test server.  I have an eagle that I've never shot at anything in, and I'd like to try out the technique and see how effective it is before discovering I've got the tactics all wrong on live.

I've got a question: What about the Gallente destroyer? Any workable fit there for anti-interceptor work?

No. It sucks. The good news is cross training to a cormorant which uses the same guns takes 6 hours (caldari frig 3). With your crazy strong drone skills, you should be flying a Vexor anyway. Let me just quote the wiki on this topic:



RE: Endie, If you're going to fly the eurosquad comedy moa, I simply have to see it in action. Seriously. I'm not going to spoil this surprise.

Goddamn it, Bhodi. You know what that means? I just spent 20 million ISK on the wrong parts. Why the hell couldn't you have posted that last week? That's goddamn evil.

I will have to pick up Minmatar Drone Specialization next time I'm back in the civilized world so I can run Warrior II's, but I can -- right now -- fit all of that. My drone range exceeds my targetting range (I can target to 63km --78 with the booster , and my drone range is 78k, since I have Scouts to 5 and EDW to 4). I'm going to have to train up my targetting skills more, since I'd prefer to run Drone Nav Computer x2 than use a Sensor Booster, but I need the booster if I want to target to my drones max range.

Oh well. I have the Damage Controls and EANM already, and the plate, so I just need the smal reppers (I normally use mediums for a Vex), the drone stuff, and the dual 150 rails. And ammo other than antimatter.

Let me reiterate: That is a fucking evil setup. The tank is light for my tastes, but can run reasonably long if I turn the guns off (and with 5xhammers or 5xwarriors, I don't really have to have guns). Holy shit, I can't wait to put one together. There goes another 20 million in parts, drones, and spares -- more if I go with T2 warriors.

I can't wait to fly it.

Don't buy the rails--I have quite a few medium guns scattered around, and we can try to hook up and see if I have anything that works for you. I also have a bunch of 125's somewhere I think.

I personally wouldnt bother with the repper at all. Get your resists up and help out that big ass plate, it will save you cap and absorb more that the repper would ever repair in a real fight. I'd go with an explosive hardener...or a cap power relay or something. The small rep is just not good enough for a plated cruiser. If you are worried about repairs after a fight, the small would take you an hour to rep it all anyways, might as well just find somewhere to dock :)

Here is what I use:

Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Small Automated I Carapace Restoration
Damage Control II

Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon I Microwarpdrive
'Langour' Drive Disruptor I
Fleeting Warp Scrambler I

Heavy Neutron Blaster II
Heavy Neutron Blaster II
Heavy Ion Blaster II
Heavy Ion Blaster II
Heavy Ion Blaster II

[empty rig slot]
[empty rig slot]
[empty rig slot]

Drones: 5xHammerhead II

DPS is 575 with Void M ammo, slightly less (but better tracking & range) with faction. Speed is 1424 m/s. There is no tank. I call it "Glass Cannon Thorax".

Some actual kills with this ship:
http://f13.7mph.com/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=3
http://f13.7mph.com/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=26

It did get blown up by some hac finally, but I've fitted a few more. They are very fun to drive.

Dual 150s are cheap. I've got stacks of medium turrets sitting around back in Verge, for that matter. (I'm stacking loot that runs between 50k and 200k a pop -- sell it all as mass orders when I move to L4s and the loot changes). Even buying enough for 5 fitted Vexs, plus a contract to move them is pocket change.

Slayerik: CPU is tight -- I couldn't fit an active hardener with that setup, and a passive one just croaks to stacking penalties. A small repper is a better choice, barirng rigs. I'm already at 70%/50%/50%/30% (damn explosives will kill me) resists. I'd have to offload a gun or drop to 800 plate to fit an active hardener. And if I'm dropping to 800 plate, I'm moving to a Medium repper anyways.

The repper is just there to buy me a few minutes. Notice the lack of an AB or MWD on that setup -- it's really not there for a sustained tank, it's there to kill frigs and interceptors. They have to punch through 1500 shields, and then 7k of armor (and that with a small repper going), which is a lot to ask of frigs and interceptors when you have four medium turrets eating at you and drones that can beat the shit out of you starting at 80km out and fly a lot faster than your average small-gang interceptor setup.

I mean, hell, the Warrior II's are doing something like 110 DPS just by themselves. I don't know what those interceptors that have been hassling us do, damage-wise, or how thick a skin they have, but that's a LOT to ask a frig-sized ship to take.

How much damage can they dish out, anyways?

I love Vexors.  That ship can turn into almost half-a-Hulk or a nice valuables-transporter at the drop of a hat.  Gonna so be able to fly that setup above soon.

I'm thinking that is the final list?  Moved some stuff around, added ceptors to it and reordered the ships that might work list to reflect how likely it seems to be that they would be useful.

With the list in mind I for one intend to bring into the neighborhood:
3xOmen for throw away setup testing because I already own 3 insured Omen from way back.
1xHarbinger, I've never flown it and I've been wanting to, my gunnery is solid and I have BC IV.  Hopefully I can keep it alive for a bit.
Coercers, lots of them.  Which means I'll be training Destroyers to IV starting Monday when I finish with my current V skill I'm working on.

I guess for that purpose it is ok, in 90% of real fights the small repper is pretty bad however. It takes 4 cycles to equal one Medium. If you are targeted in most fights, the small repper is useless and will buy you maybe a few seconds..  But I see what you are looking at doing with the setup.

I'd personally pull the mediums for light guns or projectile guns (for no cap use) which would free up tons of CPU...run a real tank and have an MWD, cause well any ship without an MWD in small gang is pretty horrible. Hope you don't need to reapproach a gate! Let your drones do the work and the guns just a minor deterrance. To each is own of course.

Light guns or projectiles give up the Vex bonus to medium hybrids -- the only real reason to mount them, and while I could ditch the Sensor booster and run a MWD there, Vex's cap sucks without a cap recharger, which means then I'm giving up either the Omni or the Nav computer, which means I'm cutting into my drones.

I wouldn't use this setup for solo PvP -- it's a very specific anti-Interceptor/anti-Frig ganker, running as kind of a poor man's Ishtar. If you're not warping-to-zero (or waiting for your fast ships to lead your target to you), you're doing it wrong.

But yeah, it's slow. :)

Sometimes in gangs you are forced to turn around and reapproach gate to run. Good night Irene! :)

I hear ya about the guns, I don't usually like giving up bonuses.

I'm thinking it's like everything else -- you specialize and kick ass for what you focused on, and suffer for it other times. Or you generalize -- you're okay in everything, but great in nothing.

My general Vex PvP setup is more generalized. Heavy plate, medium reppers, mids with disrupters, MWD, and cap recharger, and light guns in the highs. (And eat-your-face drones in the bay, of course). For a cruiser, it'll live a LONG time. Solid damge, solid tank. My Myrm setup is much the same.

But for what we're looking at -- what BAT needs for roaming gangs, this is MUCH better. Solid out-and-out in-your-face DPS, and VERY good for those roaming wolf-packs we keep seeing. It fits much better into the "the best tank is so much fucking DPS you don't get off another volley, ass" mold that the rest of the gang is going into.

And I think for T1 ships versus T2, that's pretty much what you have to bring.

I'm a giant whore for Amarr for no better reason than liking the shiny brass ships, so my cruiser's an Arbitrator.  It has good drone bonuses, a huge drone bay, and enough bandwidth to have five mediums out.  Its other armament blows ass; two medium laser turrets are woefully incapable of doing real damage, and I have no missile skills to use the launcher hardpoint.  But that's okay with me, it frees enough capacitor juice to let me tank through a whole legion of pirates shooting me at the same time while my drones rip them up.

My plan, once the training time for Cruiser V is done and I resub, is to stock the drone bay with some special-purpose drones.  Armor reppers, ECM, that sort of thing.  It'll let me use the huge drone bay for more versatile use than just hauling fifteen medium attack drones and only ever using five of them.

The Arbi's other bonuses are to turret disruptors and capacitor disruptors.  I have little experience with either of those, but I mean to amend that.  On their own, I haven't seen the turret disruptors accomplish much, but with a named disruptor, a 25% boost from the cruiser, and another 20%ish from the skill, I think they may stand a good shot at cramping the style of anything with a turret.  Ditto for nosferatu/cap disruptors; having an extra 25% tacked onto their effects should go a long way towards making them good to carry.  Useless for me right now since I'm primarily fighting NPCs, but nice against living targets.

As side notes,

- that Vexor setup above requires Engineering 5 for enough grid to fit the 1600 plate (with Engineering 4 you miss it by 10 grid, and have to fit 800mm)

- a small armor repairer repairs 1/4 of a medium for 1/4 of the cap juice, but its cycle is 2x as fast, so in effect a small armor repairer is only 1/2 of a medium (with much much lower grid and cpu requirements)

- not much room for spare medium drones if they get destroyed

- 200 m/s speed, and the guns have a range of only 20k

I have engineering 5, the guns are only for the idiots who get within 20k of me, and my drones rape face. :) I can carry 5 Hammer 2s and 10 Warrior 2s. That's plenty of drone death against interceptors. :)

I've only skimmed so apologies if I'm just repeating (I suspect Slayer has already covered it anyway)

We've been working on anti speed tank setups/tactics (not that we get them used against us much) and basically you can sum them up as follows

Warrior 2's - with Drone Nav 5 these shouldl keep pace with a non-pimped Crow (i.e. no faction/plants/rigs but decent/maxed skills and a T2 fit) on the straight, very comfortably if its orbiting. A drone range extender mod (or two) will result in the demise of a Crow under fire who doesn't/can't warp out (he should die before he leaves drone control range)

[Amarr] Destroyers/Small Energy Turrets - Even with average skills (lvl 3 across the board) the Amarr destroyer with T1 medium beams/radio can hit a semi-pimped (10km/s straight) Crow more often than not (the alpha generally takes the Crow to half shields), unfortunately the Crows going to have time to warp out due to the damage bias once you hit his armour/structure but multiple destroyers can offset this.

To a lesser degree small lasers fitted on ships that dont get a small energy tracking bonus may still be able to track enough to hit the target (depending on its traversal

I haven't done any testing with the other destroyers to see if they can reliably hit an orbiting Inty (obviously the Corm and, to a lesser degree, the Thrasher can snipe at them). The Thrasher (with decent skills) will make micemeat of anything small it can hit but I doubt the Gal one (if blaster fitted) will be able to get/stay in range (and if you put rails on it you'd be better off in a Corm)

Overheated webs/Matar Recon/EAS - Typically a speed tanker wont be capable of orbiting within web range (even if he wanted to) due to his speed, therefore in order to web the target you need to get a longer ranged web. Faction webs are probably too expensive but the Matar recons and electronic attack ship, and to a lesser degree overheating, enable you to use normal webs at greater ranges. Bear in mind that double or triple webbing may be required to stop excessively fast ships getting back out of web range before their demise

Sniping - Assuming you can get far enough away to reduce the effect of traversal any sniper has the capability of hitting a speed tanker (especially if its a non-inty with a nice big signature) we've had at least 1 instance of a Crow being popped by a Tempest's alpha. The only issue here is if you get rushed by the speed tanker (who, if hes sensible, won't come straight at you) you will only have time for a couple of volleys before hes on top of you - ironically, under these conditions, I'd prefer the Moa over the Eagle (despite the Eagles higher range & DPS) as the Moa can hold 3 Warrior 2's but the Eagle has no drone bay at all!


Things probably not worth bothering with:
Missiles - unless you can slow the target down below 4km/s (IIRC) missiles arent going to do any damage (due to explosion velocity). Target painters won't help with this!
Rockets - while these might (havent checked) have enough explosion velocity to hit an Inty if you are in range to use them then you could also have webbed him (having said that T2 Jav Rockets have a longer range)

The verox setup on page 1 of this thread seems to be plain evil. At least it can tank a 1 BS spawn and kill it in reasonable time.
I'd like to have someone in an inty to see if my drones can catch him.
I could train that skill right now, somehow I completely overlooked how usefull a bonus to web range could be.

Just be prepared to be primaried a lot, the Hyena is dangerous to a lot of ships and is pretty much paper so people will want to kill you quick  :) Being primaried, to me, is a compliment to my fine choice in ships!!! :)

*Insert concord joke here*

Does Target Nav Prediction help missile users? 10% decrease per level in factor of target's velocity for all missiles sounds nice enough.

Another counter that I don't think has been discussed much is to fly a battleship and fit one or preferably two large Energy Neutralizers. They have a range of 25 km, so anything that can web or jam you, you can hit. You don't need tracking or anything for these. One hit of a large neut will kill the capacitor of a frigate, two will empty a cruiser.

With an empty capacitor, your usual interceptor or Vagabond can't maintain the MWD, can't warp and can't fire. Of course, they may have a cap injector, and of course they may retain the MWD speed long enough to get out of range so they can build up enough cap to get away, but if you time it right you might get them. And they sure won't get you.

They're not terribly easy to fit though, but some ships, like the Domi are great platforms for them. You'd likely need a cap injector too.

The problem is at the speeds we're talking about, all these ships can outrun even light missiles - they never even explode.

Yeah thats valid

However since the Inty changes, the ones with the tackle range bonus can (with near maxed skills and T2 mods) tackle outside the 25km neut range, also there are some Inty pilots that fit a cap injector (rather than a passive cap mod)

T2 Rockets? One of the variants has like 38k range or something.

No.

The advanced long range rockets have a flight time of 4 seconds and a velocity of 3250m/s. Even with skills, it barely breaks 5m/sec. It's the same with precision light missiles. Precision cruise missiles are slightly faster at 3750m/s, but their explosion velocity is 1000m/s so they'd do no damage anyway.

Also, even if he was to burn right towards you for some reason, and your missile actually hit him, you still have the explosion velocity to deal with - the explosion velocity is only 3000m/s, so they'd do no damage either.

So bottom line, missiles are essentially useless against fast (4k+) ships? This would mean I would be little good against an inty. Maybe they will leave me alone so I can target other stuff.

I noticed in the last patch the Moa can now fit 5 turrets.  I haven't played around fitting one, but if you have a proclivity for Caldari ships it's probably a viable option now.

Yep*, unless you can slow the target down (web him) - dont feel too bad, unless you very good tracking (small energy turrets [on an Amarr Destroyer]) or are sniping turrets are unlikely to hit either.

*Interestingly since trinity I actually take a small amount of damage from light missiles now (despite going over 5km/s), its not enough to threaten me unlessI had a load of people shooting but it does suggest that _something_ got changed in the math dept.


It doesnt really help Blaster fits on the Moa/Eagle as cap was a problem with 4 turrets already (I dropped a turret for a Nos usually) but it will help DPS when sniping (although I suspect cap is still going to be an issue)

I agree of course that a Moa would make a shitty blaster platform.

It might be useful now in a gang as a inexpensive medium railgun platform for those characters that are Caldari specialized.  After all, those poor Caldari pilots don't have many non missile boat options before they get to the battleship or HAC level.

Its not actually that bad an option (obviously a Gal boat would be better) but depending on your drone/HAC skill the Moa can have a higher DPS than the Eagle due to the drone bay and (as long as you spring for rigs) you can get a tank that isnt a million miles away from the Eagle too

Onyx is a better option though IMO

Here's the STDS (Ships That Don't Suck) plan I have with everything I can think of taken into effect:

[Stiletto, PvP Tackler]
Mark I Generator Refitting: Capacitor Power Relay
Mark I Generator Refitting: Capacitor Power Relay
Mark I Generator Refitting: Capacitor Power Relay

1MN MicroWarpdrive II
Warp Disruptor II
Remote Sensor Booster II
Sensor Booster II

Light Electron Blaster II, Antimatter Charge S
Light Electron Blaster II, Antimatter Charge S
Rocket Launcher II, Gremlin Rocket

[empty rig slot]
[empty rig slot]

Here's the downside:
Skill plan for Taki Makaze

1. Analytical Mind IV (1 day, 7 hours, 39 minutes, 47 seconds)
2. Logic I (35 minutes, 22 seconds)
3. Logic II (2 hours, 36 minutes, 55 seconds)
4. Logic III (14 hours, 7 minutes, 12 seconds)
5. Iron Will III (5 hours, 3 minutes, 2 seconds)
6. Clarity III (13 hours, 30 minutes, 22 seconds)
7. Minmatar Frigate I (19 minutes, 39 seconds)
8. Minmatar Frigate II (1 hour, 31 minutes, 32 seconds)
9. Minmatar Frigate III (8 hours, 37 minutes, 43 seconds)
10. Minmatar Frigate IV (2 days, 48 minutes, 51 seconds)
11. Minmatar Frigate V (11 days, 12 hours, 8 minutes)
12. Evasive Maneuvering IV (1 day, 21 hours, 3 minutes, 33 seconds)
13. Evasive Maneuvering V (10 days, 14 hours, 53 minutes, 32 seconds)
14. Interceptors I (44 minutes, 55 seconds)
15. Navigation IV (22 hours, 31 minutes, 46 seconds)
16. Afterburner IV (22 hours, 31 minutes, 46 seconds)
17. High Speed Maneuvering I (45 minutes, 21 seconds)
18. High Speed Maneuvering II (3 hours, 31 minutes, 14 seconds)
19. High Speed Maneuvering III (19 hours, 54 minutes, 46 seconds)
20. Sensor Linking I (30 minutes, 21 seconds)
21. Sensor Linking II (2 hours, 23 minutes, 16 seconds)
22. Small Blaster Specialization I (29 minutes, 28 seconds)
23. Interceptors II (3 hours, 29 minutes, 12 seconds)
24. Interceptors III (19 hours, 43 minutes, 25 seconds)
25. Rockets I (9 minutes, 49 seconds)
26. Rockets II (45 minutes, 47 seconds)
27. Rockets III (4 hours, 18 minutes, 50 seconds)
28. Rockets IV (1 day, 24 minutes, 25 seconds)
29. Rockets V (5 days, 18 hours, 4 minutes)
30. Rocket Specialization I (29 minutes, 28 seconds)
31. Small Blaster Specialization II (2 hours, 17 minutes, 18 seconds)
32. Small Blaster Specialization III (12 hours, 56 minutes, 36 seconds)
33. Sensor Linking III (13 hours, 30 minutes, 22 seconds)

Total time: 41 days, 12 hours, 27 minutes, 52 seconds; Completion: 5/13/2008 7:14:07 PM

And that is if I drop everything and do it right now. /sigh

Don't bother training a week for t2 rockets. That's a huge waste. So are t2 blasters. You're a dedicated tackler. Frankly, you're the best frigate-sized dedicated tackler in the game. Your damage is already anemic so don't spend weeks of training trying to bump it up to paltry. Your job is not to do damage.

Try this fitting. It's better. You need AWU IV to fit it, so train it instead of t2 weapons.

2x 150mm AutoCannon II
1x Named Rocket Launcher

1x 1MN MicroWarpdrive II
1x Warp Disruptor II (24km)
1x Named Web -or- RSD
1x Small Capacitor Battery II

1x Nanofiber II
2x Overdrive II

The cap battery lets you run your MWD and point indefinitely. You're pretty much invulnerable with this setup since you can top out at 6250m/s and go at least 5000m/s in a wide orbit. With Inty IV, your point goes out to a retarded 28k.

Yah, was curious why the "battleclinic" loadout didn't have web/more speed, which is one of the big reasons I asked. I think it was more of a solo thing.

On the autocannons, that's about 2 weeks -more- training than the T2 blasters given my current char setup. Will probably eventually move over to that, will see.

Good points on the dedicated tackler stuff though, and the speeds.

Screw guns, fly small T2 energy leeches.  It's more infuriating to the guy you're tackling, and as long as you're already in web range...

Hmm. Leeches work as a % of cap, right? They only suck if the target's cap % is above your cap %? Mixed neuts/leeches might work better.

Nosferatu suck amazing amounts of grid. I tried to put on in my crappy little Osprey last night, just to see, and I would have had to go down to 1 turret and one launcher.