f13.net

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22724870/

Wow, I was unaware of how strange a dude he was.  Maybe the best ever in terms of raw ability, but that don't make up for crazy. 

Uh, yes, it does.

Every great genius of a field is crazy. And the raw ability completely and totally makes up for it.

The world lost a great mind today, don't be a dick.

How does one cheat at Chess ?

I mean, at that level, not at the stage where your Dad nicks your Rook and hides it when you go for a smoothy.

He was a vicious anti-Semitic bigot.  Nobody's doubting he has a "great mind", but he was a very bad person. 

Maybe an early Den is good for this thread, so I'll godwin it up with:  If Hitler had been the greatest chess mind ever, would that ability "make up" for his other activities?

He wasn't very old.  I wonder why he died?  I read that famous biography of him years ago... don't remember the name.  He was VERY weird.  I wouldn't be surprised if he had a stroke because someone was looking at him.  He hated that.

From what I read, mate, he was a genius with a disturbed mind.

It's more common than you think and should be viewed with pity beyond it getting into a position of power.

I'm with Schild.  You're not correct.


Further, if Hitler was merely good at Chess, he wouldn't have been the massive problem that he was.  Driving the tanks into Poland put it a little further than Rook to King 3.

Uh, we're talking about Bobby Fischer. I'm Jewish and don't give a fuck that he was anti-semitic. Mostly because I'm not a little bitch with a political hard-on. Please, get over it. The guy was a chess GENIUS. Not just good at chess, but possibly the best ever. And maybe the best that ever will be. He was the goddamn Da Vinci of Chess.

You know what, I'll even dignify the Hitler comment. Only because I'm feeling sassy. Even the Jews understand that Hitler was one of the greatest if not The Greatest Orator of all time. The guy could move a modern nation with the wave of a hand. Hell, he did. Hebrew Schools, today, still have classes where you pretty much just sit and watch Hitler videos while the teacher explains how fucking awesome he was at talking. So, does it make up for his particular activities? No. But it's OK to recognize brilliance in the eyes of madness. But hey, wake me up when Bobby Fischer's Zombie Corpse wipes out 6 million people of a culture. Then I'll be willing to side with you and not mourn his passing. There's a difference between a little bit crazy like any genius and Using Your Power to Make Satan Look like a Nice Guy, Fischer was the former. Asshole.

I'll be hearing "One night in Bangkok" in his honor tonight.

Fuck the haters, he was a chess genius. And beside his insane ramblings, he never did anything to anybody. Comparing him with Hitler is beyond the pale.

Crazy is nearly always acceptable with very talented people.  Well, as long as they don't kill anyone or fiddle with kiddies and that sort of rubbish.  Fischer was just really, really nuts.  A bit like Monk and mostly everyone loves Monk.

Who's Monk??!

Tony Shaloub's character on TV.

Also, the title of the show.

Please, Ironwood, get with the program.

:(

We don't get that.  To my Knowledge.

During the Cold War he played against the Soviets and won. At that time his victory was a a big deal. Going to the moon, better technology, and better minds were all ammunition in the battle. For all his insanity in later life he was a cold 'warrior' for the US.  If you could erase the mental illness and paranoia you would see a hero and not some broken down man.

Bobby Fischer was an American hero. That's how I'll remember him.

That's a crying shame, really. Of all the dreck that the US doubtlessly ships abroad, they could have at least broadcast this in Britain to show we're not completely naff. Its just one of the funniest shows we've made in ages.

It's ok, I thought they were talking about Thelonius too.

Its worth getting it even if they don't show it in your country. Or in the wrong language, as in my case.

Bobby Fischer evidently called Bush a criminal and didn't want to go back to the US until he is out of office. Thats remarkably sane for a completely insane person.

I liked his quote about the "Allies of Evil"

Chess is individual against individual. If Bobby Fischer had defeated the giant soviet robot that stomped Smallville, I'd see your point, but he played another human being, who happened to be Russian.

Bobby Fischer ended up denouncing the US and moving to Iceland. Take the hint.

It doesn't matter if you play a game very well if you fail a basic humanity.

You do get it in the UK.  My in-laws in Dunoon saw a couple episodes and enjoyed it so we sent them the series on DvD last Xmas. 

eek.  This is what he looked like last year... a lot older than 64!

(http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:HpBBHOvu2-JugM:http://www.chessville.com/images/Fischer/Bobby%2520Fischer%2520aboard%2520the%2520jetplane%2520arrv%2520Iceland%2520(2).JPG)

Did i miss something Bobby Fischer did to other people except calling them names? If that is failing at basic humanity, we could rename this site "f13.net failing at basic humanity"

Good show, loved him on Wings.

I'm googling furiously and I can't find where.  If anyone can hook me up, I'll take a gander.  Possibly even a goose.

He beat them at chess.   :oh_i_see:

In fairness, a lot of people on this site do that too....

And when they die, I'm sure we will blurb about them, too.

Monk is on something named the "Hallmark Channel"  (http://www.hallmarkchannel.co.uk/)which I don't think existed when I was there, or at least I never noticed it. 

Ah.  That's where I get House.

I'll keep an eye out.

He was a smart person.  He was not a nice person, or a good person.  There is a difference.  He also seemed to be fairly mentally ill; that still does not make him a good person.

Fischer was a chess virtuoso, and he was also a massive kook who I wouldn't want to live within 8 miles of me.  Two unrelated facts can be simultaneously true.  Christ, people.  It's not like we're trying to assign him a review score. 

I think he was more bitching that he was distracted. The guy acted like he had Aspergers -- if everything wasn't just so he couldn't concentrate. When he could concentrate, your ass was fucking grass.

I have the DVD of Searching for Bobby Fischer, which really DOES totally fail to mention the bat-shit insane parts of Bobby Fischer, but since the DVD (and the book it was based on) was really based on a chess prodigy growing up (it's a good movie, and the book is good -- written by the kid's dad.), and not Bobby Fischer.

Shit, I wish I could remember the kid's name -- he's one of the best US chess players.

Interesting that he was a proponent of chess varients. I'll have to tell my brother that. (I got my brother a card game called "Nightmare Chess" designed for use DURING a chess game -- played cards alter the rules -- and my brother was joking about me killing the purity of chess).

I've been wanting to play Chess960.  Also, one of the cooler nerdy party games I've played was 4 person chess - fun because chess experts lost a lot of footing when the standard bag of tricks didn't work so well. 

Nothing beats battle chess.

The kid Searching for Bobby Fischer was about is (or at least WAS) a fan of a speed chess variant -- four players, two to a side. One partner plays white, the other black. Say you're the white player -- you take a black piece, your partner can put it into HIS game in play, and vice versa.

You got to it before me.

Yeah, if you asked BF why he died, he'd probaby say the CIA poisoned him.  He was batshit fucking crazy for a number of years.  Still, a huge loss of someone so brilliant.

He was an absolute ass, and besides having the luck to be born with the perfect mind for chess, a shitty human being.  I don't get the hero worship here.

You touch a piece, release it, and then change your mind and make a different move (http://www.controltheweb.com/polgar/#controversy).  Kasparov managed to get away with it.
Or you go back to your hotel room in the middle of a match (http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache:vMYMi4jlYSUJ:www.chesscafe.com/text/hans93.pd&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us&client=firefox-a).  Kasparov also got away with that one.

I don't get it.

?


I don't get the not getting.  Or were you responding to someone else?

Check Mate, Bobby.

I don't play chess.  Boring.  Sorry.  It just is.  (http://www.wdisneyw.com/ubb/tongue.gif)

Kasparov is a little bitch.  I remember him proclaiming how he'd never be beaten at chess by a computer.  And then whining when he got beaten because the program that beat him was the work of multiple people so it wasn't really fair, or something lame like that.

Well, yeah, but he wants to Rule Russia.

I mean, that's who you want ruling Russia, right ?

Kasparov is a little bitch and he is right.  He should have never agreeded to it without transparancy.  Deep Blue was good PR nothing more.

So lets get it right:

Bobby. Batshit insane bigot who's good at chess, American (though he hated the US in the end) = Awesome.
Kasper. Guy who whinged about a chess game, trying to change russian political system and challenge Putin, Russian, also pretty good at chess = Fuckwit.


? Right?

Wait... Which one was it who kept editing posts?

 :awesome_for_real:

Yeah, reading through that the first thing I thought of was Aspergers.

Also, it seems like he was a right arsehole, who happened to be American and good at chess.

Wasn't Bobby's mother Jewish as well (which *I believe* technically makes him one too)?  So shouldn't all of his anti-semitic comments get a free pass?

Great mind, wacko comments.  I've got plenty of musicians and artists I respect that are the same way: gifted players who have some of the dumbest or wackiest views out there.  I don't begrudge them any more than Fischer since hey, at least we know where he stands.  Especially compared to those who claim to be one thing but will change it to whatever suits the wind at the time?

Hell ESPN did a whole section on his because a reporter's father was a semi-mentor to Fischer at some point. The interview where Jeremy Schapp confronts Fischer about who he is and his relation to his father still rates very high on my uncomfortable list.

Okay, so in all seriousness, I think I have a kind of a general ruleset about judging someone like Fischer or any of the other multitudes of mixed bag personalities.

One: If a person's a terrible human being, the fact that they can do something very well like hit baseballs or star in Gladiator or run fast or make shitty mmo subscriber graphs or play chess, that is not a ticket to redemption nor is it a reason to really judge the person as any greater than you would otherwise.

Two: If a person's talent was mostly the product of an age in which they were a terrible human being, it's okay if they repent later or otherwise stop being a worthless human being (exa: shatner). It vindicates.

Three: While you can't vindicate someone through their talent, you can still rip the shit out of someone for lack of talent because it's just fun and you can judge it as part of their character if their ineptitude was costly to others (exa: mcclellan, 'heckuvajob' brown).

Four: Being a snitch does not vindicate.

^^^

I agree.

Or to simplify: Just because you are good at something doesn't give you the right to be an asshole.

And Fischer was a VERY big asshole.  And what he was good at was a game.  Not anything that can make people's lives better.  A fucking game.

He was an asshole who was good at Chess.  He was also an anti semitic America hating, law breaking, 9 11 praising piece of shit.

Fuck him.

To be fair, Russel Crowe is more of a talented wanker who is a bit too full of himself than a terrible human being.

The significance of Fischer is not in the sum total, but in the value of one ability. If you find him relevant at all probably has a lot to do with your appreciation for the game of chess.

I don't really understand people getting upset about him though. He was nuts. You may as well get angry at every wacko in the booby hatch. Or ignore any contribution made by an insane person. I'm not learning calculus because Isaac Newton was an asshole.

I personally find chess to be a great way to engage and encourage general mental ability. My own chess ability improved greatly after studying some Fischer games. Of course I started hating Jewish people afterwards, but what are you going to do? :awesome_for_real:

Most people don't know Bobby Fischer, so I don't really understand how it's impossible to isolate his successes and failings. He was the best at what he studied, and that is admirable in and of itself. Society forgives genius because of the fine line it walks with insanity. You look at Van Gogh and think he was an amazing artist while at the same time a crazy bastard who cut his own ear off. Still, I'm not thinking about his ear when I'm looking at his work. Fischer will be remembered in a similar fashion.

Did you just compare Fisher to Van Gogh? Somehow I don't think they will be remembered in a similar vein.

I doubt many people outside the chess/american world knew who he was, nor will in the future.

You underestimate his celebrity.

Anyways, he was a genius and probably the greatest chess player in history that simply went off the rails. Why does he have to be more/less than that?

Ask any person to name a chess player. Seriously. See what they say. My bet is that of those who said anything, Bobby Fischer is tops on the list. He entered into a pantheon of celebrity that had nothing to do with people understanding chess.

Yeah, it works for all levels of badness. Crowe makes a great example because some people completely forgive his being a jerkoff because of his acting. He ain't a failure of the human condition or nothing but the principle still stands: he's still a wanker

Fischer's quality as a human being aside, I'm not sure where all the confidence that he was the greatest player EVAR comes from.  I doubt anyone serious would disagree that Kasparov is the greatest player ever, and most would probably put at least Karpov and Lasker above Fischer.  And maybe Capablanca.  Fischer is 5thish.

Those guys were technicians (with Capablanca the exception). Fisher took the game in new directions. Greatest is a subjective term, but he was one of the most innovative for sure.

In the US maybe.

However Kasper is going to be a bigger name for most people. The deep blue thing got a lot of press and is more recent. (Edit: Not to mention the Putin stuff. I assure you if I asked people who Kasper is many/most would know. If I asked about Bobby, not many at all.)

The problem with Fischer is that he instigated a renaissance in chess, which on the one hand argues for him, but on the other hand means he was beating an older, weaker generation of players to do it.  His best competition was probably Spassky, who's maybe a top-20 player.  Meanwhile Kasparov was out beating guys like Karpov and Kramnik, both top-10 players.

Chessmetrics has a reasonable algorithm for comparing across eras, and if you narrow the range down to three year peak (http://db.chessmetrics.com/CM2/PeakList.asp?Params=199510SSSSS3S000000000000111000000000000010100) Fischer does well, because he was a comet.  But if you expand the range to a whole career, like 15-years, he's down to 7th (http://db.chessmetrics.com/CM2/PeakList.asp?Params=199510SSSSS3S000000000000111000000000000010100)

Both links be the same.

As Ab said- In terms of raw, innate talent, I'd say some 1-2 of Fischer and Capablanca (Anand on top for speed chess, Tal on top of one subcomponent of "raw, innate talent"- creative genius; best chess for the longest period of time- certainly Korchnoi) with Kasparov in third.  Although perhaps equating talent with attacking flair is too biased, we always overlook the Petrosians and Smyslovs of the world.   

"best" all time?  Certainly not in career achievement.  But on the best day of Fischer's life v. the best day of Kasparov's life, I'd pick Fischer.     

Considering that the guy you are talking abouts name is Kasperov I'd say you are wrong.

As for Sidereals comment, Fischer pretty much stopped playing tournaments after only a very brief time for what his career could have been.  If  you look at his record there are very few, almost no, people who had a winning record against him. 

Consider that I abbreviated with an e I'm wrong? :oh_i_see:

Гарри Кимович Каспаров

Am I right now?

Dude, you said his name was going to be huge WHILE MISPELLING HIS NAME.

So, yeah, you're wrong.

Jesus wept, get a grip.

I've been doing this the last few days, and Kasperov always comes off first. Fisher comes off second (or not at all, or with prompting). Of course, I'm located outside the US where we're obviously less biased towards American Heroes, etc.



That's the other pertinent thing - we get our information on these people via the media, and there's always a media bias. Over here (Australia) we get the Russel is a bit of a Wanker stuff, but we also get "Russel Crowe, Brilliant Human Being and True Blue Fair Dinkum Top Aussie Bloke (who was born in New Zealand)." Because, well, he's Our Boy Done Good. We get news of him doing stuff like Saving Rugby League clubs (South Sydney Rabbitoes) who are in financial crisis. while to the US in general he probably only crops up in the news when he's been a dickhead and punched someone again.

Don't get me wrong, I still think Russ is a bit too full of himself and a wanker, but the information you get on him is a little skewed. Frankly, Fisher might have been an otherwise nice human being who wasn't good with the media, and happened to hate Jews (despite his Jewish mother, which made him a Jew...). Then again, to continue the Godwinningness of this thread, even Hitler apparently loved Children and Animals, and possibly had a Jewish Grandfather. He did ok in the Media for awhile though...

Kasparov
Karpov
Bobby Fisher


Thats the three best known chess players in my circles from the random inquiries I made since Bobby Fisher died. In that order.

How much leeway is there when translating Russian names from Cyrillic into Roman letters? Is it like Arabic where there can be quite a few "correct" translations?

There's a lof of "-off" and "-ov" surnames. A and E and even O can often be transposed in other translations.

Zomg, it's Fischer. You clearly have no right to comment on this issue.

No Leeway.  I have Spoken.

Crucify Him.

Funny thing, my own surname is Fischer.

I should have known better than commiting this typo!  :ye_gods:

I didn't spell his name, I gave him a nickname. Do you seriously think I am that dumb. Jesus wept.

Get a grip!

Yes.

This has a revrese effect you know. That you could think I am that dumb makes you even dumber.

I don't think either of you are dumb, but you both have the same brusque and abrasive posting style. If you both had Zod avatars, I might not notice the few differences.

So stop fighting. Give each other a hug or something.

I'm less brusque and more abrasive. How dare you fail to notice.

That's because it's on USA! ZING!