Bobby Fischer dies

[sidereal]

How does one cheat at Chess ?

I mean, at that level, not at the stage where your Dad nicks your Rook and hides it when you go for a smoothy.

You touch a piece, release it, and then change your mind and make a different move.  Kasparov managed to get away with it.
Or you go back to your hotel room in the middle of a match.  Kasparov also got away with that one.

[Ironwood]

I don't get it.

[sidereal]

?

"In 1994 in Linares, Spain, Kasparov played a knight move against Judit Polgar and removed his fingers from that piece. But after he saw that he might lose material, he took the knight back and made a different move. His act was caught on camera by a Spanish television crew."

I don't get the not getting.  Or were you responding to someone else?

[Lantyssa]

Check Mate, Bobby.

[Signe]

I don't play chess.  Boring.  Sorry.  It just is. 

[Samwise]

You touch a piece, release it, and then change your mind and make a different move.  Kasparov managed to get away with it.
Or you go back to your hotel room in the middle of a match.  Kasparov also got away with that one.

Kasparov is a little bitch.  I remember him proclaiming how he'd never be beaten at chess by a computer.  And then whining when he got beaten because the program that beat him was the work of multiple people so it wasn't really fair, or something lame like that.

[Ironwood]

Well, yeah, but he wants to Rule Russia.

I mean, that's who you want ruling Russia, right ?

[tazelbain]

You touch a piece, release it, and then change your mind and make a different move.  Kasparov managed to get away with it.
Or you go back to your hotel room in the middle of a match.  Kasparov also got away with that one.

Kasparov is a little bitch.  I remember him proclaiming how he'd never be beaten at chess by a computer.  And then whining when he got beaten because the program that beat him was the work of multiple people so it wasn't really fair, or something lame like that.

Kasparov is a little bitch and he is right.  He should have never agreeded to it without transparancy.  Deep Blue was good PR nothing more.

[lamaros]

So lets get it right:

Bobby. Batshit insane bigot who's good at chess, American (though he hated the US in the end) = Awesome.
Kasper. Guy who whinged about a chess game, trying to change russian political system and challenge Putin, Russian, also pretty good at chess = Fuckwit.


? Right?

[IainC]

So lets get it right:

Bobby. Batshit insane bigot who's good at chess, American (though he hated the US in the end) = Awesome.
Kasper. Guy who whinged about a chess game, trying to change russian political system and challenge Putin, Russian, also pretty good at chess = Fuckwit.


? Right?

Wait... Which one was it who kept editing posts?

[lamaros]

 

[Azazel]

I think he was more bitching that he was distracted. The guy acted like he had Aspergers -- if everything wasn't just so he couldn't concentrate. When he could concentrate, your ass was fucking grass.

Yeah, reading through that the first thing I thought of was Aspergers.

Also, it seems like he was a right arsehole, who happened to be American and good at chess.

[Selby]

Wasn't Bobby's mother Jewish as well (which *I believe* technically makes him one too)?  So shouldn't all of his anti-semitic comments get a free pass?

Great mind, wacko comments.  I've got plenty of musicians and artists I respect that are the same way: gifted players who have some of the dumbest or wackiest views out there.  I don't begrudge them any more than Fischer since hey, at least we know where he stands.  Especially compared to those who claim to be one thing but will change it to whatever suits the wind at the time?

[Paelos]

Hell ESPN did a whole section on his because a reporter's father was a semi-mentor to Fischer at some point. The interview where Jeremy Schapp confronts Fischer about who he is and his relation to his father still rates very high on my uncomfortable list.

[Samprimary]

Okay, so in all seriousness, I think I have a kind of a general ruleset about judging someone like Fischer or any of the other multitudes of mixed bag personalities.

One: If a person's a terrible human being, the fact that they can do something very well like hit baseballs or star in Gladiator or run fast or make shitty mmo subscriber graphs or play chess, that is not a ticket to redemption nor is it a reason to really judge the person as any greater than you would otherwise.

Two: If a person's talent was mostly the product of an age in which they were a terrible human being, it's okay if they repent later or otherwise stop being a worthless human being (exa: shatner). It vindicates.

Three: While you can't vindicate someone through their talent, you can still rip the shit out of someone for lack of talent because it's just fun and you can judge it as part of their character if their ineptitude was costly to others (exa: mcclellan, 'heckuvajob' brown).

Four: Being a snitch does not vindicate.

[Jain Zar]

^^^

I agree.

Or to simplify: Just because you are good at something doesn't give you the right to be an asshole.

And Fischer was a VERY big asshole.  And what he was good at was a game.  Not anything that can make people's lives better.  A fucking game.

He was an asshole who was good at Chess.  He was also an anti semitic America hating, law breaking, 9 11 praising piece of shit.

Fuck him.

[Azazel]

One: If a person's a terrible human being, the fact that they can do something very well like hit baseballs or star in Gladiator or run fast or make shitty mmo subscriber graphs or play chess, that is not a ticket to redemption nor is it a reason to really judge the person as any greater than you would otherwise.

To be fair, Russel Crowe is more of a talented wanker who is a bit too full of himself than a terrible human being.

[Dtrain]

The significance of Fischer is not in the sum total, but in the value of one ability. If you find him relevant at all probably has a lot to do with your appreciation for the game of chess.

I don't really understand people getting upset about him though. He was nuts. You may as well get angry at every wacko in the booby hatch. Or ignore any contribution made by an insane person. I'm not learning calculus because Isaac Newton was an asshole.

I personally find chess to be a great way to engage and encourage general mental ability. My own chess ability improved greatly after studying some Fischer games. Of course I started hating Jewish people afterwards, but what are you going to do?

[Paelos]

Most people don't know Bobby Fischer, so I don't really understand how it's impossible to isolate his successes and failings. He was the best at what he studied, and that is admirable in and of itself. Society forgives genius because of the fine line it walks with insanity. You look at Van Gogh and think he was an amazing artist while at the same time a crazy bastard who cut his own ear off. Still, I'm not thinking about his ear when I'm looking at his work. Fischer will be remembered in a similar fashion.

[lamaros]

Did you just compare Fisher to Van Gogh? Somehow I don't think they will be remembered in a similar vein.

I doubt many people outside the chess/american world knew who he was, nor will in the future.

[Abagadro]

You underestimate his celebrity.

Anyways, he was a genius and probably the greatest chess player in history that simply went off the rails. Why does he have to be more/less than that?

[Paelos]

Did you just compare Fisher to Van Gogh? Somehow I don't think they will be remembered in a similar vein.

I doubt many people outside the chess/american world knew who he was, nor will in the future.

Ask any person to name a chess player. Seriously. See what they say. My bet is that of those who said anything, Bobby Fischer is tops on the list. He entered into a pantheon of celebrity that had nothing to do with people understanding chess.

[Samprimary]

To be fair, Russel Crowe is more of a talented wanker who is a bit too full of himself than a terrible human being.

Yeah, it works for all levels of badness. Crowe makes a great example because some people completely forgive his being a jerkoff because of his acting. He ain't a failure of the human condition or nothing but the principle still stands: he's still a wanker

[sidereal]

Fischer's quality as a human being aside, I'm not sure where all the confidence that he was the greatest player EVAR comes from.  I doubt anyone serious would disagree that Kasparov is the greatest player ever, and most would probably put at least Karpov and Lasker above Fischer.  And maybe Capablanca.  Fischer is 5thish.

[Abagadro]

Those guys were technicians (with Capablanca the exception). Fisher took the game in new directions. Greatest is a subjective term, but he was one of the most innovative for sure.

[lamaros]

Ask any person to name a chess player. Seriously. See what they say. My bet is that of those who said anything, Bobby Fischer is tops on the list. He entered into a pantheon of celebrity that had nothing to do with people understanding chess.

In the US maybe.

However Kasper is going to be a bigger name for most people. The deep blue thing got a lot of press and is more recent. (Edit: Not to mention the Putin stuff. I assure you if I asked people who Kasper is many/most would know. If I asked about Bobby, not many at all.)

[sidereal]

The problem with Fischer is that he instigated a renaissance in chess, which on the one hand argues for him, but on the other hand means he was beating an older, weaker generation of players to do it.  His best competition was probably Spassky, who's maybe a top-20 player.  Meanwhile Kasparov was out beating guys like Karpov and Kramnik, both top-10 players.

Chessmetrics has a reasonable algorithm for comparing across eras, and if you narrow the range down to three year peak Fischer does well, because he was a comet.  But if you expand the range to a whole career, like 15-years, he's down to 7th

[lamaros]

Both links be the same.

[Triforcer]

As Ab said- In terms of raw, innate talent, I'd say some 1-2 of Fischer and Capablanca (Anand on top for speed chess, Tal on top of one subcomponent of "raw, innate talent"- creative genius; best chess for the longest period of time- certainly Korchnoi) with Kasparov in third.  Although perhaps equating talent with attacking flair is too biased, we always overlook the Petrosians and Smyslovs of the world.   

"best" all time?  Certainly not in career achievement.  But on the best day of Fischer's life v. the best day of Kasparov's life, I'd pick Fischer.     

[Murgos]

In the US maybe.

However Kasper is going to be a bigger name for most people. The deep blue thing got a lot of press and is more recent. (Edit: Not to mention the Putin stuff. I assure you if I asked people who Kasper is many/most would know. If I asked about Bobby, not many at all.)

Considering that the guy you are talking abouts name is Kasperov I'd say you are wrong.

As for Sidereals comment, Fischer pretty much stopped playing tournaments after only a very brief time for what his career could have been.  If  you look at his record there are very few, almost no, people who had a winning record against him. 

[lamaros]

Consider that I abbreviated with an e I'm wrong?

Гарри Кимович Каспаров

Am I right now?

[Ironwood]

Dude, you said his name was going to be huge WHILE MISPELLING HIS NAME.

So, yeah, you're wrong.

Jesus wept, get a grip.

[Azazel]

Did you just compare Fisher to Van Gogh? Somehow I don't think they will be remembered in a similar vein.

I doubt many people outside the chess/american world knew who he was, nor will in the future.

Ask any person to name a chess player. Seriously. See what they say. My bet is that of those who said anything, Bobby Fischer is tops on the list. He entered into a pantheon of celebrity that had nothing to do with people understanding chess.

I've been doing this the last few days, and Kasperov always comes off first. Fisher comes off second (or not at all, or with prompting). Of course, I'm located outside the US where we're obviously less biased towards American Heroes, etc.

To be fair, Russel Crowe is more of a talented wanker who is a bit too full of himself than a terrible human being.

Yeah, it works for all levels of badness. Crowe makes a great example because some people completely forgive his being a jerkoff because of his acting. He ain't a failure of the human condition or nothing but the principle still stands: he's still a wanker

That's the other pertinent thing - we get our information on these people via the media, and there's always a media bias. Over here (Australia) we get the Russel is a bit of a Wanker stuff, but we also get "Russel Crowe, Brilliant Human Being and True Blue Fair Dinkum Top Aussie Bloke (who was born in New Zealand)." Because, well, he's Our Boy Done Good. We get news of him doing stuff like Saving Rugby League clubs (South Sydney Rabbitoes) who are in financial crisis. while to the US in general he probably only crops up in the news when he's been a dickhead and punched someone again.

Don't get me wrong, I still think Russ is a bit too full of himself and a wanker, but the information you get on him is a little skewed. Frankly, Fisher might have been an otherwise nice human being who wasn't good with the media, and happened to hate Jews (despite his Jewish mother, which made him a Jew...). Then again, to continue the Godwinningness of this thread, even Hitler apparently loved Children and Animals, and possibly had a Jewish Grandfather. He did ok in the Media for awhile though...

[Tebonas]

Kasparov
Karpov
Bobby Fisher


Thats the three best known chess players in my circles from the random inquiries I made since Bobby Fisher died. In that order.

[Azazel]

Dude, you said his name was going to be huge WHILE MISPELLING HIS NAME.

So, yeah, you're wrong.

Jesus wept, get a grip.

How much leeway is there when translating Russian names from Cyrillic into Roman letters? Is it like Arabic where there can be quite a few "correct" translations?

There's a lof of "-off" and "-ov" surnames. A and E and even O can often be transposed in other translations.