f13.net

Yes, I'm a butcher, and I've been PMed on Steam/other places about different things relating to cutting meat and general raw food related questions.

That being said, if you have some questions for a butcher that you'd never ask the one in your grocery store because he/she is 1) scary, 2) hard to approach, 3) freakin' disgusting, or 4) non-existent; ask here! I'll try to answer your questions fully.

Also, I'd like to post some knife porn in here too since we kinda got off-topic in the kitchen thread.
A knife everyone should own because it is the best bang for his/her buck: (http://www.knives.co.uk/acatalog/vk5660315%5B1%5D.jpg)
Where I work buys these things for $4 a pop. You should be able to find them for about $12 if you have a specialty supply place.

Later in this thread I'm going to post some pictures and some how-to guides for eating on the cheap. I don't make a ton of money and I pay my own bills. That being said, I think I eat pretty darn well (Not VDL well, but I make do :-)).

In truth I have legitimate meat-related concerns, such is my irrational desire for fine dining, but I feel under-qualified to bring them up.  I'm the butcher shop equivalent of the grandma that walks into CompUSA knowing only that she wants one of these new-fangled computery things with the lights and the hard drive attached to the keyboard.

I don't know why, but this is the first thing that popped into my head when I read this thread.

(http://www.daviddarling.info/images/ToServeMan3.jpg)

Thanks for the tip on the knife.  I may pick up a couple and give them a try.  Can you give me the brand name and style?  I can't quite make it out from the pic.

Is there any truth to claims that supermarkets 'doctor' their meet to keep it coloured red and looking fresh?

Do you buy meat from a butcher or supermarket?

What cut of meat is stupidly overvalued and which cuts of meat are good bargains?

Give us three simple butchery tips to save top-dollar!

Edit: engrish

What exactly is a London Broil?

I know that it refers to the method of preparation and not the cut of meat, but it always appears to be the same cut of meat.

London Broil is my favorite on-the-semi-cheap dish to prepare.



I worked with a butcher in high school and have much appreciation for those who do it.

/salute

Do you work at a commercial scale or out of a butchers shop?

At what stage do you start on the carcass these days? My brother bought some lamb at a butchers in Belgrade last week, and ended up buying a neck, shoulder, leg with which, with an exclamation that he was doing extra special favour for my brother, because its a delicacy or something, he added the head too. Is that even possible in US butchers these days or are they all shipped off for catfood long before it reaches your supplier?
 
If you work at traditional/independent butchers do you make hams, sausages and other prepared meats?

Whats your own favourite cut and cooking method of beef, lamb and pork?

Oh. In case anyone is wondering what he did with the head. He wrapped it in some plastic bags and put it in the bin.

Meat!  WooHoo!  Why is lamb so fucking expensive in the US?

Okay, I'm going to Bruce a little bit here, but in order of posting:

1) Nebu: Victorinox, Fibrox series. I'd recommend a chef, a boning, and a paring knife. Getting a set of twelve knives really overdoes it; how many times do you really need 12 knives in the kitchen?

2) Lt.Dan: It really depends. You want to make sure you are getting USDA Choice/Prime wherever you go. Prime carries a premium, but anything less than Choice lacks quality.

3) Lt.Dan: Stupidly overvalued? Anything thin. Also chicken breasts. Three things I'd recommend buying are: whole chickens and cutting them yourself; bone-in pork roasts and boning them out; and finally, chuck-eye steaks, if your market carries them (these are original delmonicos -- don't let a butcher trick you into buying a chuck steak, which is a piece of shit on the grill.

4) GD: Traditional london broils are actually pectoral meat, folded under into a steak. I don't know if I could give you a picture, only because I don't really cook them. More common london broils are cut from a top round, also known as an inside round. It does also refer to preparation, but that's really lost its meaning nowadays. It's kinda like a Prime Rib. Prime Rib originally referred to USDA Prime Rib Steaks. Nowadays people call Prime Rib anything that is a ribeye steak (not correct). And also, becoming a butcher is easy. After I do some posts showing easy ways to cut things, people will really appreciate how far cash can go for meat (Especially chicken).

5) PF: I've worked at both, since I was 18. I'm 21 now. The biggest piece of meat I cut nowadays (closest to a hanging side) would be either a beef loin (top sirloin+porterhouse+tbone) or a whole pork loin (same thing, but pork). Whole rounds, arm chucks, and the like really don't exist anymore in a retail setting. However, the smaller the animal, typically the bigger the meat starts. For example, I can get a whole leg (round) of lamb. You don't see that in beef anymore. Lamb head is a delicacy?  :hello_thar: Not in the USA. You could probably find a head somewhere if you looked hard enough though. I know pigs' heads are easily found.

6) Signe: Domestic lamb is expensive. Imported NZ/Aus lamb is inexpensive. Also, most places carry USDA choice lamb, a higher quality and better tasting lamb. Unfortunately, if you like lamb/veal, there really isn't a whole lot you can do on the consumer's end to reduce the price of these species -- they are generally just flat expensive.

Traditional retail places -might- do their own sausage still, depending on the chain, but not many places make their owns hams anymore unless it really is a super-specialty shop. They are very labor intensive. I'd say 99% of small butcher shops make their own sausage because they don't want to waste any pork when they cut. When you say prepared meat, I'm not sure what you mean. We have stuff where I work called HMR (Home Meal Replacement) which are things like stuffed chicken breasts and kabobs and such.

My favorite beef cut would be a standing rib roast (which I'll show a picture of when I get around to posting my pictures this Christmas -- I always cook one every Christmas eve). For single servings, the best steak you can buy for the price (if you don't mind a fatty cut) is a chuck-eye.

My favorite value pork cut has to be a boston butt (arm-chuck for pork). These things are freakin' awesome in a slow cooker. However, if money is no option, I'd rather slow cook myself some baby back ribs with some Howton Farms (a specialty BBQ rib saucemaker where I live) Sauce. Southern Bell Sweet Heat is amazing.

My favorite chicken meal really varies. Chicken doesn't taste very different from meal to meal. That's why it is chicken. However, if I were doing a roast chicken, I'd suggest beer can, and root beer if you like a sweet flavor. Personally, when I cook a whole chicken, I eat a breast and a thigh. (YMMV)

My favorite cat recipe is General Tso's...   :awesome_for_real:

My favorite fish meal has to be grouper sandwiches. You could really substitute cod/tilefish/haddock/halibut/insert whitefish here, but grouper really cooks up amazingly. Not for the faint of wallet though.


Oh, also, there is absolutely NO WAY any company could get away with coloring their beef or add breading to ground beef or whatever the rumors are. Health codes are pretty damn stringent nowadays. It just doesn't happen; it'd be suicide for a company. However, I can tell you that I've definitely heard stories about stuff happening like that maybe twenty-five someodd years ago. People actually tend to like ground beef better with bread in it.

Why to McDonald's meat patties look like poo and sawdust in a bun.
 :awesome_for_real:

That makes sense.  I like the London Broil because it is a generally tough piece of meat that, if prepared correctly, can be tender and delicious. 

I agree with the chuck eye - you can't get a cheaper, better tasting and tender steak.  If you get the right cut, the difference between that and a rib eye is negligible.  I like to trim down (not off) the fat before I cook them.  The Delmonico is definitely the one to look for.  A supermarket that I used to shop at had a butcher who would correctly cut and label the Delmonicos - a rarity.  You could get two, inch and a half thick steaks for about four US dollars.

I think Signe mentioned the deer filet earlier.  Most deer hunters keep this cut to themselves, and rightly so.  I managed to get one from a hunter last season and it was absolutely unbelievable.  Most deer is an acquired taste, but not the tenderloin.  That is a piece of meat that everyone should try at least once in their life.  Deer sausage, on the flipside, is easily acquired and is hands down the best sausage.  Zero fat, maximum flavor.

As for pork - I find the Boston Butt a bit gamy.  Like you said, it's a meat that needs to be slow cooked and seasoned.  Boston Butt can be fun to experiment with because it is a ton of meat at a cheap price.  With meat like that, Dr. Pepper can indeed be a marinade. 

Lamb?  If I'm served lamb, I will gladly eat it.  That's about all I can say.

Chicken - the chicken of meats.  When and why the hell did wings become so fucking expensive?  When I was in college, you could get them for 39 cents a pound.  Is this some sort of communist conspiracy?  (I would be interested to know the answer to the first question.)

Redfish is my favorite fish because it is easily grilled.  Any time you can grill something that is good for you is a good combination.  But shellfish are Where It's At. 



You should take anything I say with a pinch of salt, but when I was your age I was working long hours in every part of a kitchen and even though I loved my job at the time, I didn't realize how much I would miss it now.  Take that for what it's worth, but if you have a passion for what you do in the kitchen, I think it's fantastic.

You can usually get a couple pounds of boneless leg from Trader Joe's in the 10 quid range. I think it's pretty tasty, and they finally started packing it without their grody marinade and crusty seasonings on it.

How does one age meat at home? I got a tenderloin of pronghorn (I know that this was what it was) that I wanted to age for a week or so but ate it anyway. It was good, but coulda been better, I just know it! My dad hunts a lot and I know I can improve the flavor of a lot of what he gives me with a little time in the chill chest.

Answers. I demand them!

Publicly posting that the 8" Victorinox chef's knife I bought from Amazon on cmlancas' advice is super hot.  I also bought a sharpening steel and apparently figured out how to use it since my shitty aluminum-handled straight knives actually cut worth a damn now.  $20 for the knife and can't-remember-but-cheap for the steel, and I'm happy.  I might get a paring knife but the chef's knife works for what I do.

Hi, cm. I'm glad you started this thread. I have a couple questions. Will my local butcher typically know the origin of the meat I'm buying? Will most butchers be able to tell me what the livestock were fed before they were slaughtered?

The reason I bring this up is because I recently came across this article:

Exactly what do chickens and cows eat before we eat them? (http://www.miaminewtimes.com/2007-11-22/news/meat-you-might-not-want-to-eat/1)

Since I haven't had time to go to the supermarket over the past couple days, I thought I'd just ask to see if you or anyone else here could shed some light on this.

(This is like Dear Abby, but for meat!)

stu (and everyone), you should read The Omnivore's Dilemma (http://www.michaelpollan.com/omnivore.php) by Michael Pollan. It is really good.

Ooo. Only ten bucks on Amazon. And it's very recent. I'm still behind on the small pile of books I have, but I'll bump this up on my to-read list and then give it away as a Christmas present to my best friend's mom (she's a Nutritionist). Thanks!

Great freakin' thread...

Now I'm hungry...

I'm looking for the best cut of meat to make fajitas with and the best way to tenderize it. I've been using flank steak in the past, but I'm not sure I'm giving it the best treatment or the using the right cut.

Skirt steak or top sirloin cap steak, depending on price range. The best way to tenderize it is to cut it against the grain:

If a skirt steak is presented as such:

____________________________________________________,

cut it horizontally, against the grain. Skirts make amazing fajitas because they have the perfect amount of fat. Flanks are good, but I think are wasted in fajitas, personally.

I'll answer the rest of the questions tomorrow :)

Ok, stupid question time. When you say against the grain in meat, how do I tell which way the grain is going? I mean, I caddy for a golf course, so I know the way to check for the grain on the greens, but I don't have a similar trick for meat. Thanks.

I'm not an expert on dry aging, but many people don't know that beef/venison/bison/redmeat has an insane shelf-life (with the exception of ground beef). DO NOT EXCEED A SHELF LIFE ON GROUND BEEF. YOU WILL GET SICK. If I take a rib-roast, leave it in the fridge for a week and a half, cut the green off and cook it, it's pretty damn tasty. Personally, I only do mine in the fridge for ~5 days. Since I'm cutting the meat at my retail establishment, I know when it came out of the cryovac. I generally refuse to eat "fresh cut" meat because it typically is more tough -- every day that you let the meat sit and bleed out, the more the fibers will break down, and the more tender it will be. My target range (and there are some specialty items out there online if you look that can keep meat at the proper humidity/temp for weeks on end before you cook em) for my beef is just before it turns grey. My girlfriend refuses to eat it if it is green and I shave it off.


Maybe, maybe not. It depends where you are buying it from. If you are active enough to go through the whole rigamaroll of buying beef at a fair and having it slaughtered yourself, you might could know all of it. Typically though, if you're at a big retail chain, mostly all they will know are characteristics like, vegetarian-fed, no-hormone, free-range.... stuff like that. All beef has a COOL (country of origin law) tag on it, but most beef comes from the USA anyway. It's too expensive to ship stuff from Mexico. Every now and then, very, very rarely, I'll see Canadaian stuff. I haven't seen it in three or so years though.

Oh, and chicken is juicy because they more or less marinate in their own shit. Just accept it and get over it -- sometimes we eat things that are tasty that, when analyzed, are disgusting.

Hello Mr. Butcher,

Long time listener, first time caller, love your show.

I bought a twelve pound young turkey yesterday afternoon.  The turkey has an expiry date of the sixth of December. 

So, my question is...  How long can I keep this uncooked beast in the fridge before it will go bad? 

Thank you.

I wonder about that sort of stuff, too.  Nearly all the cold cuts of meat I buy state 3-5 days but I know that's bollocks.  I keep my lunch meat in air tight containers and I'm sure some cold cuts, such as cured Genoa salami and prosciutto, live much longer than... say... sliced turkey or ham.  I can't really go on my nose because my mind plays tricks on it when I'm thinking of spoiled meat.  I'm sure I toss out perfectly good stuff now and then. 

Probably because mutton is not as popular in the States as it is over in the UK and europe thus we do not have many people raising sheepies for food and so the cost for the few that are sold for food is higher.

I never recommend keeping poultry past the sell-by date. However, if you run into a problem where you forgot to use it on say, the sixth, and you go to use it the seventh, you should give it a nice long whiff. If it doesn't knock you on your ass, it's still good. There's no in between on bad poultry -- it either is or it isn't.

On Cold Cuts, (I actually used to work at a deli too, heh), turkey really shouldn't be kept more than about a week. With salamis and salted meats (capicola, et al), they last much longer. Use your best judgement.
Oh. And on cheese? I used to work at a deli where when the cheese would mold, we'd just cut it off and put it back out. No one ever complained. Think about that the next time you wonder, "is this cheese good when it has mold on it?" Yes! Just cut it off and eat the damn thing.  :awesome_for_real:

(http://img406.imageshack.us/img406/155/howtoskirtud3.jpg)

Ever cut the tips of your fingers off in the meat slicer?

No. However, my brother did slice a part of his palm off because he wasn't properly using the guard on a slicer. It happens (to people who aren't safe), but not very much. I use a ton of dangerous equipment every day. People who get hurt by them, in my opinion, weren't being safe enough.

#1 - why does every butcher east of california "butcher" my tri tip roast by cutting all the fat off ;(

#2 - can we stop dying all our meat please.

1) Ask them not to do that. Simple enough.
2) That doesn't happen. Sorry. And if it does, call your local news station and watch them have a media field day with a story like that. And after that, watch your store go out of business.

Did you read the thread when I posted that earlier though?

Salamok might have been referring to:

Congress debates carbon monoxide in meat packaging (http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/story?id=3861265&page=1)

Anyway, thank you for the answer regarding the turkey.  I am going to try a two-stage roasting recipe from my Dean&Deluca cookbook tomorrow.  Really hope I do not poison my family.

Oh. That. You should be able to ask your retail establishment whether or not they use CO in packaging of stuff or not. Generally the only place you would see something like that (and I'm not saying this is always true) is with something that has been pre-packaged before it ever hit retail. Where I work, we wrap all of our stuff in-house, and I don't even know how I would treat it with CO. I was also under the impression that it doesn't really affect anyone very much, when it is done.

I work for one of the largest chains in the SE. They don't use CO on anything, ever. Fish is mostly where you see it, typically with Yellowfin Tuna. Believe it or not, yellowfin doesn't come that amazingly bright pink color all the time. Typically it is a little darker than that, and a little washed-out looking. Every now and then (at least where I work) I'll see some that is really pink looking.

There is an off chance that someone might lie to you about it though, but as far is pork/beef/chicken goes, if it isn't vacuum sealed, you probably won't have a problem.

Also, don't confuse CO packaging with air-displacement packaging. Some ground meats are specially packaged with a unique concentration of air.  This  (http://books.google.com/books?id=CWkH8YHiYsEC&pg=PA113&lpg=PA113&dq=air+displacement+packaging&source=web&ots=EiiQLTfgeu&sig=x5UtZsLQAE6-3SqOrRSTJPZVr2c) is the first thing I came up with on google, and it looks pretty informative. I think air-displacement packaging is brilliant for ground chicken, turkey, and products meat departments don't sell regularly.

farm raised salmon isn't red at all and It just seems that the bright neon red colored steaks I buy at the costco meat counter seem cartoonish when compared to fresh killed venison.  So you are saying that this article (http://ezinearticles.com/?The-Cause-of-Obesity&id=152996) and hundreds of others like it are wrong?


I'm not saying that butchers dye their meat to keep it looking fresh past expiration, I am saying it is dyed before it ever gets to them. 

Carbon monoxide isn't really a big deal unless you breathe it. It's just a carbon and an oxygen, people!

"Tonight on Inside Edition: Meat packers are rinsing YOUR meat in dihydrogen oxide. What you don't know MAY KILL YOU!"

The red stuff is in muscle tissue is hemoglobin, not blood (and not dye). And blood is only blue until it makes contact with oxygen. Doesn't anyone take 9th grade biology anymore?

Also, red dyes are not all toxic. Most red dyes come from annato seed.

Stupid fucking alarmist media.

I agree the media is often times alarmist & retarded.  I can also understand your oxygen turning blood red theory but that doesn't explain how I can go buy a nice thick cut of meat and slice it down the center while raw and the color is uniform throughout.  You would think if it were just a matter of oxygen that it would have a more dramatic effect closer to the portions that were actually exposed to air.  It also totally ignores the fact that most of the blood is drained from the carcas after slaughter and muscle by itself isn't red. 

I'm not trying to get into a debate on whether or not the manner in which my food is getting fucked with for marketing purposes is benign or not.  I would just rather they didn't, how many products have been ruined in the name of greater shelf life and/or profitability at the expense of something else that has gone mostly unnoticed until it was too late?  The only reason we are so attached to cartoonishly red meat is because we have been trained to associate it with quality and freshness.

I just wish people would ignore the 'radiation' part of irradiation. It's safe for our food and a plain good idea, assholes.

But this is the wrong thread. Back to butchering!

I don't cook, but I still find this very interesting.

Freshly-cut muscle is purplish-red, I know this from all the game I eat. It hasn't been dyed, but it really is a bright purplish-red meaty color.

First, I'm pro irradiation.

Second, when I leave my ground beef laying around for a while, it turns from red to grey.  Actually so do the steaks.

Third, ninth grade was a long time ago.

Is that even close to a reputable article? Farm raised salmon has dye used in it, but retailers are REQUIRED BY LAW TO LET THE CONSUMER KNOW IT IS COLOR ENHANCED. Thanks. Meat isn't dyed. I know people who work in slaughterhouses and the like. It just doesn't happen. Sorry. Don't believe everything you read on the internets.

Okay, the whole thing about it turning a brighter red five minutes after you cut it, in the industry, is called bloom. When oxygen hits the meat, it brightens the color. If you could cut meat in a vacuum, it wouldn't do that and it would stay that really dark red color. Unfortunately, you can't.

Salamok, I understand your concern, but you make yourself look ignorant (which I know you aren't, you just want to know the truth) when you claim to know what you are talking about when you don't. That's why this thread is called Ask a Butcher, not ask Salamok for his misinformed opinion.


And by the way: Fresh meat does look bright red. And I've already said that I don't eat freshly cut meat. People who are "in the know" know that bright red meat is, on the whole, less tender than something that has bled out and been aged.

The media really gives the food industry a bad rep. Most of what you eat with the exception of some fish, comes without any preservatives at all. Period. Most of the meat doesn't even come frozen anymore!

Edit: If I can find a digital camera that works tonight, I'll demonstrate how to cut a whole chicken. If not, then too bad! :D

OK, preservatives are something I try to avoid but I am more concerened about hormones and whatnot in beef.  The chicken packages tell me that it's illegal to add hormones to chicken, but can you go over the details if you know?  I have been told it's legal to give hormones to dairy cattle, but you can't believe everything you read on the bathroom wall.

If it is veal, pork, poultry, or lamb, hormones are prohibited. Unless beef says explicitly it is no-hormone, assume there are hormones in it. You shop at Publix, right Yeg? The Greenwise stuff is no-hormone.

The Publix in my town closed.  Kroger or Super Target for me.  I will look at the labels.

There's one down the street in midtown. I could see it from my window at the terrace! :P

no clue if it is a reputable article it is just one of the billion that popped up on a google search.  I am not a butcher or in the industry and I was here looking for an answer not looking to give answers.  On the flip side I am not a total ignorant and the question of dying meat isn't something that just occured to me one day.  Here are some of the facts that were the basis for my concerns:

1 - This used to be a common practice, it wasn't a fabrication made up by some paranoid lunatic listening to the voices in his head.  My father-in-law worked at a slaughterhouse for 30 years, they dyed their meat in much the same fashion as outlined in that article.  SO fuck me very much this practice was commonplace in Australia as recently as the 70's.

2 - Just the fact that there are now specific US laws in place governing the dying of meat should tip anyone off that gee this crap probably went on here too.

3 - In my own experience the closer food is to it's natural state the better it usually tastes.  Yes in this day and age of supersized automated processing facilities and shipping "fresh" produce all over the world the need for irradiation and other safety measures is definately there.  However, there is a reason that the nice red tomato from your garden tastes better than the nice red cardboard mockup of a tomato from the supermarket and this is a major part of that reason. 

To paraphrase James Kirk, I'm from Hiram... I only work in Atlanta.

Sal, everything in my post should have answered your questions. The media would love to find a place that still does things like that. That reason is precisely why reputable places don't do it.

Anyway, I couldn't find a camera. Tomorrow I'll hope to find it packed away someplace.

I deboned the Thanksgiving turkey this year (well, just the breasts; I kept the legs, thighs and wings whole for the confit) and it wasn't that bad.

That meat slicing chart was a winner.  I also like to cut at an angle of about 30 degrees to separate the connective tissue.


I'll throw a question out there:

What is the most interesting thing you have butchered, cmlancas?

Human is not a valid answer.

The turkey turned out fine, I cooked it with some butter under the skin to make it extra crispy as well.  So far no one has been poisoned.

Yeehaw.

I hear butchers aren't very smart. Thoughts?  :grin:

In all seriousness, I can't think of a single thing I'd want to ask a butcher.

Plato's concept of The Cave creates a normative argument that philosopher kings should be the conduit through which all knowledge is filtered for the "blind" masses. In light of this and Aristotle's rejection of the oligarchy in favor of the democracy as the best form of political government for "the City" (although not too much as such leads to anarchy), please tell me where I can get a good skirt steak and no one seems to carry them.

Hrm. A good skirt steak, you say? Well, you'd be surprised to find that quite a few supermarkets that carry all "USDA Choice" beef might not have choice skirt steaks. Why? Well, skirt steaks are considered an offal meat -- not a traditional steak cut, since it comes as a byproduct.

That being said, I would advise you first to find a butcher/supermarket you like, then, if they don't have skirts readily available to you, ask them to get some in for you -- I'm sure they can if they are a big chain. If quality is an issue, ask if the meat is USDA Choice. Generally, before they bust open the cryovac, you should be able to see a picture kinda like this on it: (http://img144.imageshack.us/img144/8506/choicebeefak1.jpg).

The most interesting thing I have butchered? Hrm. Probably fish, to be honest with you. Cutting beef is really easy. Fish is tougher, you have to be careful with your knife or you lose cash. Grouper retails for the same price as beef tenderloin steak around here. I suppose with meat though, I prefer to cut shortloins and beef ribs. I like the ability to pick and choose which steaks are going home with me before they ever hit the case/shelf.
GD, it also might freak you out that animals are generally put together in a similar manner. Pork, beef/veal, venison, and lamb are all put together more-or-less the same. I could probably butcher you no problem.  :ye_gods:

Marg: Yeah. I know. Unfortunately we rank just above trolling Harvard law graduates though.  :awesome_for_real:

Philosopher kings?  I just got that truth is subject to perspective from The Cave.  I can usually ask the butchers at Publix for a skirt steak and they can find me one.  I usually slice it up and slow cook it in tons of butter with onions and green peppers for my fajitas.

edit:  Are you referring to the part where the prisoner goes back into the cave?  I always thought that was just him rationalizing why everyone else thought he was nuts.

Weren't they still butchering each other for stew an island over that recently? I'm pretty sure we're talking about the US of A in this thread.

I'm pretty sure he was just citing the philosopher king to tie in Plato's Republic to make it sound even more like bloated academia bullshit.  Of course, its been a long time since I read the alegory, so maybe that was something I missed/forgot.

Does Jackalope fall into that category?  My freezer is packed with them but I can't find anyone to do the deed.

I'll throw another one out there.  I've made ground beef, from round to filet, but it's hard to find a sausage with quality meat.  I've had sausage that was packed with chunks of meat as opposed to whatever was left over after the steaks were cut, but its usually from a small shop out in the boonies.  Is there a brand that you've found that is quality chunk meat?  The closest I've had was Tony Chachere's green onion sausage, but I haven't seen it in two years.  Also, have you ever made hog's head cheese?  Yum.

The secret to sausage nirvana is to make it your self. It is not hard and great recipes are at hand. I trust you know google? I recommend using pork butts to end with a steak like product that will satisfy. The problem is the consumer can not tell what meat the sausage maker used so... the answer is the cheapest possible.

I find the best ground beef is made out of chuck meat or a brisket. Mmmm.

I believe he was making a point about how butchers are stupid and can't possibly get their heads around philosophy. Seeing that cmlancas didn't respond to that statement in any way is proof that his mind is too simple to even comprehend it. Thankfully, not being able to discern the insult, cmlancas was not offended.

Meanwhile...

I grew up as something of a vegeterian. I ate fish and other seafood but never red meat. Over the last 10 years of my life I've been eating more and more red meat, with mixed results. I recently enjoyed a steak for the first time in my life and don't mind some lamb from time to time. However I remain extremely picky and cannot eat any meat unless it is of good quality and well prepared, even if I enjoy it if it is.

What other animals/cuts of meat would you suggest as quality eating for a picky person like myself? I've yet to enjoy any part of a pig!

I shouldn't make jokes about stuff said in the politics forum since lots of people don't go in there.

Yes, please wipe your feet before walking out of there.  :grin:

That comment was so worth it though. That, and lamaros' egg-on-face routine. Man, been taking a lot of flak recently, I guess you're the new whipping boy.

Egg on who's face?

I find that the best ground beef is made from a combo of buffalo, lamb and pork.  :uhrr:

Do you buy that pre-made/packed and if so what is it called?

It's supposed to be a joke (there's no beef in it) - I make it myself with a meat grinder. But I should still name it! I will call it:
HOLY TRINITY

I was wondering why there was no beef in your ground beef. :oh_i_see:  That sounds delicious.


The 'Holy Trinity' is also a term used to describe the combination of chopped celery, onions and bell peppers - saute'ed to clarity.

It has a distinctive flavor that is best recognized in seafood based cream soups, but can be used in a variety of dishes.

I use it when making meatballs - saute the Trinity and add it to 1 part sausage meat and 1 part ground sirloin, with almost 2 parts stale french bread.

But that ground meat combo would make them superior indeed.

This thread is making me hungry.

In other words, the Louisiana version of mirepoix.

Yes, with the addition of sweet peppers.

It is  :awesome_for_real:

Just threw a paring and boning knife on my amazon list because an elf has been urging me to put kitchen stuff on there. The Virwhatevernox Fibrox stuff mentioned earlier. I've got a decent sabre-style knife, one of those white-handled jobbies used in restaurants (dexter something). Also had a decent boning knife from the same series, but my mother's ex-boyfriend broke the damn tip off and ground it back to a point, so it's a short boning knife now. My main two knives are mystery brand, nice wood handled jobbies, the chef knife has great knuckle clearance, decent build quality and hold an edge well.

Some day I want to test drive some of those hot chef knives with the damascus steel look, they just look cool. Shun or whatever.

Not sure I really have any butcher questions, heh. I do ok chopping up big pieces into small pieces, and keep the knives in decent shape with my stones.

Oh wait, I know...I don't have a good steel, I hone on the back of a bread knife :| Any recommendations for a good (and cheap) steel? When I was down by the CIA browsing some supply stores (zomg pron), the trend seems to be diamond dusted steels, but I've read those really chew through blades rather than simply honing them.

You can sharpen on the unglazed bottom of a glazed bowl/plate/etc.

To clarify, steels are for honing only, and sharpening can be done with a whetstone, a leather strap or Trippy's suggestion. I use a Henckels steel that I got for free when a chef friend had a yard sale. All of my knives are Wusthoff. They don't keep an edge like a Shun, but I don't mind taking the steel to them before every other use. I need to take them to get sharpened at some point.

Having instigated  the knife porn on the cooking thread, I'll avoid it this time.

I did have a question, but I see it's already been answered.

Thanks for this thread. I'm sure I'll have a question or two in the near future.

What is the best cut of beef that can be pan-fried/sauteed?


Wooohoo

(http://www.clisham.com-a.googlepages.com/lindsay-lohan-knife-2.jpg)

Pan-fry really could be quite a few things. What do you want to use the beef for exactly?

Cook in a pan till golden brown-ish on the outside.

Something like country-fried steak? You could use a cube steak (that's a crapshoot though, unless you make 'em yourself); a top round steak, thinly sliced; a sirloin tip side steak, thinly sliced (very good); or a top sirloin cap steak thinly sliced (best).

The key to making a really good fried steak is in the batter. Ask VDL, I'm sure she has some ++ recipes.

I've used the Good Eats recipe for country fried steak and their suggestions about how to pick proper cube steak for to make it with.  It was awesome.

How thin? 

The thinner you slice it, the more tender it would be. I'd shoot for 1/8" or possibly even (if you have the tools, or can get a market to do it) slicer thin.

I can hand slice my stuff evenly at about 1/8"  :grin:

You never answered my question! :(

Sorry for missing your question. I was too busy being trolled that night that I missed it. You know us, stupid butchers not reading correctly.  :uhrr:

To begin with pork, I'd probably ease you in by making you a good pulled-pork sandwich or a nice half-rack of baby backs, simply because they don't really taste like pork. Baby backs done right are phenomenal. I do mine (and I'm sure VDL has some nifty, nifty recipes) at 225F for four to five hours. Then I pop 'em on the grill and braise on my sauce. Sometimes, if I get a really tender rack of baby backs, when I go to put the ribs on the grill, the bones fall right out of the rack when I take them out of the oven. Pulled pork is easy too: fire up the crock pot on low and add in some Mojo marinade and a boneless boston butt. Serve on some toasted hoagie buns. Mmm.

There are a few meats of each category that really don't taste like the animal they come from.  For example:
Beef: Marinated kabobs typically subordinate a "beefy" flavor. A good teriyaki or wasabiyaki will do the trick quite nicely.
Pork: Anything with a good BBQ sauce or Mojo (I prefer Goya, personally) marinade will cut the "porkiness."
Fish: Tilapia tastes like chicken. Swordfish tastes like a NY strip.
Chicken: C'mon, seriously?
Veal/Lamb: No dice here. Perhaps if you -really- marinated some lamb stew or lamb kabobs you could take the lamb flavor out, but I doubt it. Shit, when I cut lamb, I can wash my hands and they don't lose the smell. With veal, if you want something to not taste like veal, don't cook it. Veal is pretty fucking expensive in the USA. (Although if you -had- to, I think doing a veal parmesan with a nice red sauce would erase the flavor.)

Why the fuck do none of the butchers on the east coast have any idea what Tri-tip is?  They just look at you funny when you ask for that deliciously delicious cut of meat.  Heathens!

That's a lie. I know what a tri-tip is. It's darn tasty, too.  :awesome_for_real:

(http://www.beefretail.org/uDocs/1429Tri-Tip%20Roast.jpg)

A very nice answer Mr butcher mans sir. Could you be more specific about your prefired sauces. I know preferences and the region of the country dictate much but I find that most bottled sauces are way to sweet. My own preferences toward a BBQ sauce for pork lean toward vinegar based sauces. Pork loves vinegar. Flesh out your terms Mojo marinade and Goya sauce (this has been showing up in my neck of the woods along with short brown Spanish speaking people who buy it).

People who don't like pork are obviously not likable.

Learn to love bacon. It makes you a better person.

The marinade I make for baby backs is bourbon and strong black coffee, with honey and molasses for sticky and a little mustard powder. Just smear that on while it's cooking, flipping the ribs every half hour. cmlancas' cooking temp and time is right.

And schild is right. C'mon, he's a Jew and even he knows people who don't like bacon are broken.

Modification: mojo is really easy to make, I always make my own (good with prawns too). Recipe some other time in recipe thread. Don't buy sauce in a jar!

I used to like pork. Until I realized that pigs are pretty good gamers.

I would say this is true, but with two caveats. Bono's BBQ Sauce, if you live in Northeast Florida or Southeast Georgia, and Howton Farms, local to where I live and someplace in Alabama too, are both amazing.

I'd make my own, but I'm not sure how to improve upon those two.

Uh, if you don't like sweet sauces, try making a Carolina BBQ sauce. They are usually mustard-based as opposed to sweet and smoky red BBQ sauces. Bono's is one of those and it is by far the best BBQ sauce I've ever had. Ever.

Goddamn that place is good. I'm glad I don't live in Jacksonville -- I'd spend all of my money on pulled pork/smoked turkey BBQ sandwiches.

About f years ago I had some bacon that was delicious. Ever since then the magic has eluded me. So much so that I am only willing to try again with failsafe measures in place.

I will recomend the site cooking for engineers (no I am way to lasy to link). But his sauce is still too sweet. It may be a base to try to dial in to how ever.

Good to see that you are kosher even during Hanukkah  :awesome_for_real:

Thats how it was every time I stayed in Boston.  Seriously, straight on Butchers in a Butchers shop didn't actually know what a tri-tip was.  Do you have any idea why this is?  Or is it just some weird thing to New England and/or my bad luck of asking only retarded butchers?

A warning, you say?  I'll necropost my own thread from five years ago if I goddamn well please!

So, I'm back around, and that means I'll be actually following up on questions.

So, five years later, does anyone have any new meat-related questions?

It's really been five years since Ask a Butcher!?!  Gods, I feel old now.

I'm not going to lie, I thought I'd only been away from f13 for two years.  Turns out it was five.  Who knew?

Perhaps a red panda avatar is in order, for old time's sake?   :grin:

Wow, if you've actually been gone five years, that really messes up my internal timeline of how long this site has been around. Scary.

Hmm, meat related question... What should I be looking for if I want to do beef stirfry? I've always ended up with tough little chunks of meat, rather than what you get from actual stirfry places, which tends to be tender and breaks apart easily. Is it anything to do with the cut, or is it all about getting the meet sliced thin? Should I ask the butcher to do that?

There are two things you'll want to keep in mind when making stir fry (well, three, if you consider price--but we'll leave that off the table for now).

First is the thickness of your stir fry meat.  What're you going for?  If it's something like fajitas, I always recommend thicker-sliced tri-tip (top sirloin cap steak).  If it's a Cantonese-style stir fry, using a bottom round sliced roast beef thin at the butcher shop is probably your best bet. As a general rule the thinner you cut it, the more tender it will be.

Second is your quality of meat.  The best French dip you've ever had is probably from the loin-end of the beef rib (think where the rib meets the t-bone) because it's a quality steak that isn't too fatty while still giving amazing flavor.  But, a french dip is essentially thin-sliced steak on a bun with little to mask the quality of the steak.  So, if your steak sucks, your sandwich sucks.  No amount of amazing jus is going to cover up your shit sandwich.  With that in mind, think about what you're cooking:  you really can use a very inexpensive cut if you're introducing excellent flavors and slicing it very thin -- essentially, you're using the beef for texture more than anything else.

That should at least give a good baseline for the question.  What exactly are you cooking, so that I might make a more specific recommendation?

Oh, and in the interest of full disclosure, I'm a former butcher now--I took a promotion and write training now.  However, I still do a lot of butchering at home to stay in practice (but mostly to save money).

Ironwood-style butchering?

Want to second your recommendation for steak sandwich cut. I've been having those about once a week, quick on the grill (like a minute a side) with a thin rub cut. Just a little s&p before hitting the iron, then straight to the (grilled) wheat flat round. No need for anything else.

Sometimes I throw on whatever lettuce entices me and a slab of tomato.

That's the best fast food, takes longer to heat the grill than to cook and eat :)

Absolutely.  I just butchered three chicks chickens last week!

:)

Oh, that brings me to another point you should consider:  next time you're at the market, take a look at how much a whole chicken costs.  Then, scope out the boneless, skinless chicken breasts.  After you do your math about how much money you're giving to your local grocer, process your own chicken, pick out a $12 bottle of wine, and enjoy it with dinner.

I like to do larger roasts, but I'm not exactly sure what kind of cut for that I should use on a bang-for-the-buck item when it comes to beef.

For example, I want to do a roast for about 7-8 up at the lakehouse, but I don't want to break the bank on a bunch of meat and potatoes drunks.  :grin:

For less coin, I'm a big fan of rump roasts (pointy end of a bottom round roast).  They have enough fat for them to still be really good when you slow roast them and make a nice roast beef.  You can cook these in a bag with veggies and they'll all have that nice beef-veggie-potato flavor.  I like to buy a little more than I need because I love to thin slice (or even chunk it up, if i'm lazy) the roast for roast beef sandwiches in the a.m./lunchish hours. 

Oh, and don't think yourself redneck if you buy some nice white bread to go with that.  That's what the juice is for!

I'll come over when the electrical grid crashes. I'll need someone to cut up the animals.

If we aren't all eaten by zombies first.

Thanks! I'll go for a rump roast this weekend with some root veg.

Pics or it didn't happen?   :awesome_for_real:

In all seriousness though, let me know how it works out.  :)

Good stuff - I was mostly referring to your Cantonese type stir-fry, so that helps. As for french dip, I was unfortunately spoiled by my mother as a child - I don't think she really liked beef much, so when she did do roasts it was always prime rib. Nothing quite like french dip made from leftover prime rib. (I like my french dip cut thick, rather than shaved)

As to the chicken thing, I've never quite had the nerve to try butchering a full chicken, though I do regularly buy bone in thighs and bone them, as they're about half the price, which more than makes up for paying for the bone. Doesn't seem to be much of a point to grab a whole chicken when I really prefer the dark meat anyways.

Believe it or not, breaking a chicken is only eight knife cuts (10 if you separate drumettes from wings and 12 if you cut off wing joints, and when you do it once, you'll think to yourself...that's it?

It's all about finding the joints.  I'll put up a quick-like MS Paint diagram when I get home.


Also, super jealous of prime rib steak sandwiches.  I am flippin' starving right now.

This is a fucking awesome thread and I don't know how I didn't see it in its last go-round.

Ok, here's a question: why is it so very difficult to find hanger steak in any market? Even some of the butchers in the Italian Market down in Philly don't stock it. I don't mean the thin-cut skirts that come from the inside of the diaphragm, but the whole piece that you can often find in restaurants? I know it used to be kind of a secret among butchers themselves. Is it just that restaurants are grabbing most of what might be available?

Another question: what are butchers doing with bones? When I ask for bones, especially beef or pork bones (pork bones especially for making my special ramen broth) again, most butchers (in supermarkets or independent ones) look at me and say, "I don't think we have any". I'm not trying to mooch freebies, I'm willing to pay--so I'm thinking sometimes the bones must be spoken for in some way. (This is a problem with fishmongers too.)

If a butcher decides to carry anything besides the basic four animals (pigs, cows, chickens, lamb), what are the options? E.g., does the butcher need to develop a specific relationship with a specific local supplier, or are there bigger-scale middlemen for meats like goat, duck, etc.?

I'll affirm that butchering a chicken is easy. (Go watch a youtube on how to do it first and have a good knife) It is also, however, completely disgusting in terms of spreading chicken goo everywhere. It pays to do more than one at a time.

Now, my huge thank you, I have prayed for this thread to get necroed because I have a question. What happened to sirloin steaks?! When I was just a tiny larvae, it was the only steak we ate. I remember it being absolutely ubiquitous in supermarkets, mid-priced, with solid flavor and also pretty forgiving to cook.

Now, I only see it at the little foodie market, never at a mainstream market like Stop and Shop or Star. The closest thing I see mass market is something marketed as "shell sirloin" which has the same basic texture and flavor and pricepoint, but is a square cut missing the outer fat layer and multiple sections (loins? my terminology is not good). It seems to be part of the largest section, about half the size of a sirloin steak, without any of the side bits. It's almost never available and when it is, it usually is tied up for no apparent reason--I suspect the only time I see it is when they cut up a roast in the summer in order to move product. So what happened to the real thing? Is it just where I live not stocking it? Have they changed the marketing name? Has it moved upscale only? Is it being carved up into different cuts?

It looked basically like

(http://steakperfection.com/cut/SirloinSteakBonelessTop.jpg)

I deboned an entire chicken the other day while keeping it all intact. Breasts are easy to debone and you should always do it yourself unless you're in a terrible rush. Legs and thighs are a bit harder.

Thanks!  Really, it's my pleasure.  Also, voodoolily was providing quite a few threads about food, so I figured I'd give my two pennies of knowledge.


Once upon a time there was such a thing as a garbage cut of meat.  Offals (pronounced awf-als) included such cuts as tongue, tripe, hanger steak, flank, and skirt.  Thing is, folks learned how to cook it and make it tasty.  That's why sometimes you can actually find middle meat (rib/shortloin) for less than offals nowadays.  So, let's take something like hanger steak -- not very much comes from a side of beef.  What ends up happening is twofold:  one, large grocery chains don't carry it because it's a bit of a novelty (and they order by the case--it's cheaper to say no than to try to special order something like that); and two, as you said, most restaurants end up scooping up what is available. 


There are two factors at play here. 

First, if you're looking for soup bones, the kind your father's father used to boil and then eat the marrow out of, and your local grocer is telling you they can't get them, they're either lazy or stupid (or maybe both).  They come in frozen, keep forever, and have an exceptionally high profit margin.

Now, if you're looking for fresh bones from where someone might've done some boning (think the bones that come out of a t-bone steak), these practically don't exist anymore.  A butcher (or a successful one, at least) wants to sell what he can with as little waste as possible.  Butchers aren't what they used to be, and I'm an example of this:  practically nobody who isn't a hunter or someone who works a slaughterhouse can cut swinging beef.  With this in mind, suppliers send in product requiring minimal processing.  Barely anyone is ordering in a whole beef loin (bone-in strip, t-bone steak/porterhouse, and top sirloin) just so they can cut boneless steaks out of them.  A butcher would lose his ass doing this because the supplier has made it where it's cheaper to process the pre-boned out stuff.

You'll noticed I only spoke about beef here.  Pork neck bones and bones from pork picnics and boston butts are widely available.  This might be one of those times where if you have a favorite meat market, you have to hoof it to the supermarket--a smaller market might not do the volume to have what you're looking for.

Lastly, in my experience at a larger supermarket chain, I found it very profitable to order in whole fish and do the processing myself.  My supplier gave deep discounts on whole fish.  I routinely had folks who bought fish heads for fish head soup (Tampa has a large Asian contingent) and this helped me turn insane profit margins.  Unfortunately, your run of the mill seafood guy probably lacks the skills and business sense to do this.  Many seafood people at supermarket chains are butcher dropouts.  That being said, a true fishmonger who is processing his own whole fish should drool at the chance to sell you his fish heads rather than throwing them away.  But, he/she might have a relationship with the asian kitchen down the street...

TL;DR for this section:  cheaper for butchers to not mess with beef bones, pork bones probably available, fish heads and bones should be too, but might take more effort.


Again, two options here:  you'd either have a great relationship with a local supplier, or everything comes in frozen.  Local shrimp and crabs, for those of you who were raised along a shoreline, fall into the same boat (see what I did there?   :drill:).  Fresh goat and duck for most businesses just isn't practical:  you have to order way more than you can sell.  So, most businesses (supermarkets especially) carry frozen.

What you posted a picture of is a top sirloin -- the staple of any successful lower-to-middle-priced steakhouse.  This is an extremely common cut -- in fact, I think it was in the Publix (comparable to Stop and Shop) ad last week for $4.99/lb.

You might also run across this with the bone in, called a spoon-bone sirloin.


If I had to guess, this is a bottom sirloin.  It's very common to see it tied up because it takes a lot of work to remove the gristly bits that make for a bad meal.  It's pretty tasty when tenderized, but has much less flavor than what you're looking for.  If you posted a picture I'd be able to know for sure (and, if I weren't on my phone, I'd Google-fu it).

Boning chicken is an awesome way to save yourself some money--good on you, mate!

Boneless, skinless chicken thighs with butter, salt, pepper, and garlic is my favorite simple chicken dish.  So much ridiculous flavor there.

I really love chicken thighs as a cheap and easy protein source but really don't understand boneless, skinless thighs. I'll just season them, throw a bit of garlic and thyme under the skin and roast them in a really hot oven for 30-40 minnutes. There's more than enough fat in the skin to cook them well and it carries the seasoning flavours into the meat really nicely. The only problem I have then is resisting just chowing down on the gorgeously crisp skin (stupid calorie counting).

This.  What I'd give for my childhood metabolism again.

So weird. That's exactly what I remember, even the pricing, but honestly, I have not seen it in a supermarket for literally years. I have got to get out of this place.

I looked up bottom sirloin and bottom sirloin roast sliced into steaks looks like what I'm seeing as "shell sirloin."

Just read through most of the thread, totally awesome and informative by the way, and had a question. When I go to Costco I see the really large beef cuts in the fridge and I feel as though it would be cost effective to just buy one of those and butcher it into steaks myself, but I have no clue which one to get. What would be your recommendation for one of those large cuts that would be best butchered down into smaller portions?

Welcome to f13, newposter.  Don't forget to stop by the rest of the forums as we're primarily a gaming site, and this is just one tiny corner of f13.

Unfortunately, "big hunk of meat" isn't very descriptive.  I need a little more information about what it is and what you want to use it for.

Alton Brown covered breaking down a chicken (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dbc1aW5C1W0&feature=player_detailpage#t=232s).

Much appreciated!  Quite a bit of techniques are on YouTube, if anyone has a question about preparation.

First you've got to break it down mentally and physically, then you can start to build it up again.

I learned that in Chicken Boot Camp.

I'm pretty sure that was the marines....

The pork bones is what confused me most. I mean, if I'm seeing shoulder roasts like boston butt there in front of me, tied up with twine, somebody took the bone out and I'm assuming it's not done offsite. I used to take out the aitch bone on whole hams every Friday for my boss where I cooked and boned both pork and lamb roasts (usually shoulder) at other times. I'm particularly thinking this when there's also the same cut with bone-in sitting in the same case. It's just kind of weird--I'd assumed that something had changed recently to make the bones spoken for. Beef I get though I do see the butchers at Whole Foods taking out some bones on big cuts now and again. The fish thing is even weirder still--I watched one of our fishmongers filleting snapper and bluefish in the morning one day recently and asked if I could buy the bones and they were like, "Um, nobody ever wants those, are you sure?" I just figured that was a cover since they do in fact sell frozen fish stock--but I can't believe that pints of weak fish stock are bringing them more money than bones by weight would bring them if they'd sell to customers. In the end, the fish aspect isn't that big a deal--I just buy whole snappers or other fish, fillet them for something and make a stock. The pork bones I've had to work around by buying jowl and shank for my ramen broth, along with some pork belly to go in the actual soup when it's done. But I'd rather have bones.

I used to make Italian sausage (with my mom) and used nothing but Boston Butts, salt, pepper and some spices depending if we were making hot or sweet.  It was lovely.  I also use skirt steak (which I can only seem to get at a butcher) or flank steak to make Braciole.  I think in terms of those cuts of meat, it's the way you cook them that brings out the flavour.  Very slow and baste them a lot.  They take a really long time to cook.  These were common in my family when I was growing up.  I made a brisket the other day for my flatmate who had bought meat hoping to have a roasted joint and not knowing what to get.  I hadn't made one of those in years and years.  It was too big and as tough as elephant skin and I had to cook it for nearly six hours but it was really nice when it was FINALLY done. 

So it sounds like both the fishmonger and the butcher are both failing to capitalize on a revenue stream because they're ignorant.   :uhrr:

Well, count yourself lucky that you get fish bones for free -- I'd have charged you $2 to $3 for a grouper head.   :awesome_for_real:

Oh, it's not for free--if you buy a whole snapper or grouper, they're weighing the whole thing...

Course right now the best source of stock might be lobster shells, considering how ridiculously low the prices are because of the crazy glut this year. I got live lobster for $4.00/lb last week at a local Korean market.

Let it flow.  Let yourself go.  Slow and low, that is the tempo.

I love a well-cooked brisket.

For me the answer is simple, I can go from fridge to plate with boneless/skinless thighs in about ten minutes in a variety of different preps. I only cook for myself, and during the week if I'm cooking a meal, I'm looking for something I can do in 20 -30 minutes start to finish. Just can't do that with bone in chicken.

Currently my meat staples for quick meals include:

 - boneless chicken thighs - fried or grilled in Moroccan spices,  or with onions/garlic in a curried fried rice, or with egg noodles and a mushroom soup sauce
 - boneless pork chops - pounded out and schnitzeled with panko
 - red snapper - usually panko breaded and fried

That's one reason I asked about cuts for beef stirfry, I need to work some more variety in to my quick meals.

Panko is the best thing that ever happened to me.  Well, maybe not the best but certainly quite nice.  Boneless, skinless chicken thighs are great in green Thai currey.  That's THAI curry not TIM Curry.   Just checkin'. 

(http://www.hahahaimontheinternet.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/tim-curry-loadedweapon1.jpg)

Tim Curry is scrumptious though. ;D

My jealousy can't be expressed in the confines of this forum.  They're at least $11.99/lb here.

I miss my great-grandpa and the Maine branch of the family. Always had free lobster on the table.

Thankfully WW2 happened and I'm not slaving away on a lobster boat today.

I might just put this into my sig.    :ye_gods:

 :grin:

I kid, I kid.  Although, we have fantastic rock lobster down here.  And, anything that allows me to sing B-52s for no reason is a good thing.

Fantastic thread!

Unfortunately most of it isn't relevant to those of us who live in the UK. Our cuts of meat are very different and called different things. Butchery seems to be far more limited here in the UK - there are very few different cuts available, especially in supermarkets, and good butchers are a dying breed.

It's also very hard not to be a part of the problem yourself. I've found some decent butchers near me over the years but had to stop frequenting them because they're just too expensive. The supermarkets have utterly destroyed the competition with aggressive pricing, food prices in general have inflated massively over the last few years and I simply can't afford to pay the prices that decent butchers have to charge.

Still, we do the best we can. We try to buy organic/free range meat where possible, especially chicken, we've been learning how to use cheaper cuts of meat (beef skirt & shin, lamb neck and shank, pork belly, etc.) and we carefully plan our meals and shopping.

Anyway, still lots of good info here, thanks a lot :)

It's true.  I find it very hard to get a decent cut of meat in UK supermarkets.  Sometimes I wander up to the market in Bermondsey (my spell check insists that I meant to type Spider Monkey!) but by the time I drag my lazy ass out of bed and get there, good cuts are gone.  I will attempt to do better.  I have gone to supermarkets and picked up "top" cuts of beef and found them to be tough if I cook them at a normal temp for a rare joint.  I love saying joint.  For all sorts of reasons.  When I want rare beef these days, it's steak.  That way I don't have to worry about it.  I do buy a lot of chicken, though.  Roasters here actually have titties.  One thing I can't seem to find unless I buy a whole chicken and cut it up myself, is split breasts with skin and ribs.  They're awesome on the grill.

I remember this issue from when I lived in London. I was always surprised at some of the cuts--things that get separated here in the US are often left together, sometimes giving you a fatty cut sitting on a lean one, etc. Also you just plain couldn't get certain cuts of pork, beef or lamb.

People really underestimate just how much flavor is in the ribs/cartilage/etc., when they choose to cook boneless chicken on the grill.

Plus, the ribs provide an extra layer of protection against chicken drying out.

Unless I'm grilling chicken for sandwiches, it's GOT to be complete with skin+bones.

My MS family roots, I always eat the crisped skin, which is convenient as my fiancee hates the skin. If mom's over, she gets senrority.

This all goes double for stew. If you're stewing and the protein in the stew doesn't have bones (and other stuff) you are totally missing the point.

I love green Thai curry, but the fat content of the coconut milk scares me away from eating it too often. I make Indian curries and vindaloos frequently though - usually either chicken thighs and potatoes, or chick peas and cauliflower.

It's okay to make Thai curry without coconut milk.  It's not something they use much in Thailand.  (Which I fucking loved, as I hate coconut.  Made me appreciate Thai curry.)

You can get reduced fat coconut milk and it also comes in small cans, the size of those little cans of tomato paste.

I can't imagine a green curry without coconut milk.

How do ya'll prepare your curries?  In the past three years I've become a huge fan of super-spicy Indian curries and sweeter Thai ones.

Also, anyone cooking with lamb?  And if so, which part/methods?

Pretty much like this (http://greekfood.about.com/od/maindishes/r/leglambpotatoes.htm), although in my family we always use a bigger bone-in leg, slightly lower heat (325 iirc) and obviously a longer cook time.  That also means we don't add the potatoes right away so they don't get over done.  The lemon is the key to the Greek preparation; it takes away a lot of the gaminess that a lot of people don't like.

I like grilling lamb shoulder. They can be a little fatty, but they have the absolute best lamb flavor, imo. Added bonus is that it's pretty forgiving and nowhere near as expensive as other cuts.

I grill them in a greek style. Rub with olive oil, salt and pepper. Grill to medium, then i top them with a squeeze of lemon, sprinkle of oregano, and some chopped garlic.

Cooking with lamb in general? I go pretty simple: in the summer, butterfly a leg or shoulder cut, marinate briefly in lemon, garlic, oregano or mint, salt, pepper, then on the grill. Takes a bit of monitoring since a butterflied piece always has some uneven or thick spots.

Winter I'm really partial to lamb shank very slowly cooked with white beans & a tomato sauce with a breadcrumb and cheese crust.

Sometimes I do lamb kebabs--if I'm going to mess around with a spicier or more distinctive sauce or marinade, that's when I'll try it. I also like lamb in dishes like moussaka and other casseroles, and there's a Greek lamb stew called stifado that works well with lamb, though I think it's actually better with beef.

Roll leg in olive oil*, insert slivers of garlic all over it, profit.

*And salt and pepper. And possibly some herbs of your preference.

I'll have to remember that.  I've never been a fan of lamb when I've tried it.

So with all this talk about lamb I thought about roasting up a leg this weekend.  What the fuck happened to the price of lamb?  The 2.5 lb lamb shank I saw today cost over $18.   :ye_gods:

What is a tri-tip cut?

That's why I buy shoulder chops.

Tri-tip, explained (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tri-tip)

Great chili meat.

This thread makes me hungry each time I open it. I assume it also makes vegetarians cry.

Any input into steak tartar? Best or only parts to use? Where to get? I have always been curious as I am a "as raw as you can legally put it on my plate" order guy.

It's oddly fascinating, actually.

I heard it is good for grilling, also.  Any idea what they call this on the east coast?

For tartar, the first thing is you have to be able to trust your butcher! (Maybe we should ask our butcher how to know when a butcher is trustworthy...)

In general, I think most people would make it from tenderloin even though that doesn't have a lot of flavor, simply because it's soft and easily chopped and has a sort of clean, basic beef flavor. The flavor in tartar often should come from the sides anyway--chopped raw onion, egg, capers, etc.  I've had it made from skirt as well but that needs either some kind of tenderizing before chopping or some kind of marinade because it's too tough otherwise. Cuts with good marbling don't seem to me to be right for tartar--it's a waste to not cook them and get the fat involved in the flavor more fully.

Prices in general are getting ready to go way up.  Commodity prices are on the rise again (and you'll see significant jumps by next year at this time).

Maybe some who has more experience with tri-tip (I'm east coast and a Floridian at that) can explain to me why the caption to the picture says "with the grain."  Butcher rule one says to always slice against the grain, so I'm doing a little :headscratch:.

A fairly informative article though -- very interesting that it's becoming the chili meat of choice.  Are folks using a chili grind for this, or are they slicing/cubing?

For anything that I'm doing that requires ground beef (I make my chili with ground beef and chunks of pork sausage removed from the casing), I like to rough grind a mix of short rib, tri-tip and maybe one ribeye steak. You just use a ladle to take off the excess fat at the top of the chili near the end of cooking--but you want some of that fat for flavor. This goes double for a hamburger. I simply don't buy preground beef anymore, ever.

I have no idea about chili competition types, but I use both for chili - half ground in my grinder and half cut into cubes with some pork and just a little bit of slab bacon ground up to get some fat in there and add a bit of smokiness.  I'm with Khaldun on not buying ground beef anymore.

Ever try using one of these instead? http://www.beefretail.org/CMImages/BeefRetail/recipeimages/1033_7-BonePotRoast.jpg

This roast looks like the second cut to me.  You'll find a nice chuck eye at the bottom, a top blade (chicken) steak at the top, and the middle is what we used to merchandise as boneless short ribs.

Also, costs a lot less.  :)

I never knew tri-tip was a just-over-here thing.

Californians. vov

By the way on that with/against the grain thing, I have no idea why that wikipedia picture is with the grain. As far as I've ever seen tri-tip is sliced just like anything else.

I had never heard of it before moving here, but I had assumed that was me being meat ignorant, rather than a here-specific thing! Now I know. It was both.  :why_so_serious:

You really need to look up a proper recipe for all the spices, but my basics for Indian vindaloo curries are something like this:

Caramelize half an Onion and some garlic in a pan.
Mix all your dry spices together - if possible use the spices whole, lightly roast them and then grind them.
I typically use a mix of Cumin, Corriander, Cardamon, Fenegreek, Tumeric, and chilli flakes. I may add a bit of cloves.
 - you really need to look for proper recipes for balance in the spices, though I tend to wing it.

Dump the onions and garlic in to a mixing cup and add the spices, then add a small amount of white vinegar. Not too much or it overpowers everything. Enough to allow you to blend everything. Blend it in to a paste with a stick blender.

Then I brown my meat, add the whole glob of paste, and add chicken stock. Finally, add whatever else you want to make it hearty - potatoes, chickpeas, and cauliflower all work. Simmer for a hell of a long time, and warn your significant other well in advance.

I'll look for that cut, would save some buying-of-multiples. Though I like being able to mix the grind a bit to get the right texture and flavor. Also if I buy short ribs w/bone in, I can use the bones for stock  :awesome_for_real:

Cali side of the family tipped me off and I am required to find some before the September visit.  Hoping to run a couple practice grill sessions before they visit; hopefully I dont have to special order it.

Gonna talk with the local butcher and see if I can get a cut from him.  Otherwise its off the the intarwebz!

Sorry, I missed this.  Tenderloin is most common, but I've heard of people using round meat as well if they're grinding it themselves.  Personally, I wouldn't eat anything that comes out of a supermarket grinder raw (ESPECIALLY not ground beef -- the temperature warning is there for a reason) unless I watched them wash it first.  But even then, consuming raw or undercooked meat can make you sick -- you see the consumer advisory warning everywhere.

So if I were going to do it, I'd purchase something from a reputable butcher who's willing to work with you and clean the cutting block before he or she cuts it for you.  Then, I'd take it home and grind it myself.

I really advise against tartar in this day and age.  There's a lot of risk out there for one food item that can make you very, very sick.  And you'd only have yourself to blame for it.  :awesome_for_real:

Unless you ate it last night and died this morning.  Then you could blame cmlancas because he just wasn't in time. 

This is more on my "bucket list" in terms of foods. So it is not as though I will be eating this frequently, just once is good enough. I can get all the rare steak I need from just about any nice restaurant. Thanks for the advice though.

MY GOD PLEASE POST IN THIS THREAD SO I KNOW YOU'RE OKAY. 

I can't have blood on my hands! (Ha.  I see what I did there.)

I'm not saying not to enjoy it, because it's honestly very good.  But, it's probably one of the more dangerous foods out there compared to the "scare foods" people think of like raw oysters.  If oyster farmers did anything close to what some chub ground beef plants do...yikes.

That's why we're seeing so much more regulation and tracking of ground beef in the industry.

Wait, I love oysters. I used to frequent raw oyster bars in New Orleans at least once a month.  :awesome_for_real:

But yeah, I would only consider tartar in a restaurant with a reputation for it considering I would not want to try preparing it myself even from a reputable butcher because I would inevitably screw something up along the way as my kitchen is more of a chem lab on certain days.  :why_so_serious:

Chem lab, or Biology? ;D

BioChem?  :ye_gods:

It is actually much better than say my kitchen of 10 years ago. Of course, this may be mostly due to the fact I eat out far more often.  :awesome_for_real:

Since we're talking about chemistry in the kitchen, baking is the devil.

So, I have to use precision while I measure and improvisation is out of the questions?  Bleh.

Although, make me a delicious pie or cupcakes with cream cheese icing and we're friends for life.

Oh, and oysters are safe to eat year roundl. That whole months with R in it is nonsense nowadays.  When the waters get bad, they come from somewhere else (usually Apalachicola FL, somewhere in LA, or TX).  Those were the common tags I found.  And since I'm on a soapbox about oysters, they are way less expensive than you probably think they are, even at a supermarket.  I used to retail 5 to 6 dozen for 22$.

Loved baking when I was doing it.  My secret? Keep my hands cold with some ice nearby.  Hot hands ruin dough.

Christ, really? We already spend more on our weekly groceries than on our mortgage ffs.

Just going back a bit to the lamb discussion, back when we could afford it we would roast leg of lamb with a variety of herby crusts. 15 min sizzle at ~240oC, 12 mins/500g at 180oC, 20 mins resting at room temp covered with foil and thick towels. Awesome pink lamb.

Nowadays we have to stick to neck & shoulder so we tend to slow cook and casserole. I've got a large pot of lamb, beer & black bean chilli on the hob right now, made with cubed neck fillet. Really nice, but as with all chillis it's made into a great meal with the sides - home-made flat breads, guacamole, sour cream and grilled spring onions with lime juice. Can't wait :)

Well, at least lamb mince is only about a quid more than steak mince so my shepherd's pies are safe.  For now.  If I remember correctly, lamb neck fillet is about £16.00/kg, which is a lot.  But beef costs a lot now these days, too.  I'm fine not having meat every day but my flatmate likes meat for dinner all the time.  He likes good meat, too, which is fine.  As long as he buys it, I'll cook it, but red meat every day tends to make me feel a bit queasy after a while.  When I was living with my sister (they are vegetarians, almost), we would have a veggie dinner, some kind of pasta or fish - LOTS of fish.  If I wanted meat, I'd have to buy it myself and when I did, I mostly bought chicken.  If my nephew was coming over, I'd pick up steaks or lamb chops along with chicken for the grill.  I loved that, mostly because it was so infrequent.  Meat is no longer much of a treat and I find I don't crave beef very often.  I love lamb, though.

Basically I would say don't eat raw oysters from warm waters. Stick to year-round cold water oysters. And check to make sure they haven't had any oyster epidemics in the last 2-4 years. (Seriously, there are some fisheries where most of the oysters are now sick or have serious parasitic/bacteriological problems, but are allowed nevertheless to continue to produce oysters for markets.)

Yeah.  The drought this year is killing grain.  A lot of what good corn that survived is spoken for ethanol production.  Ranchers are selling all their livestock.  By winter things are going to be ugly.

If the drought continues... ugh.

Interesting thread this gives me some ideas on what to do with the 1/3rd of a cow sitting in my freezer. 

So a bit of a tangent.  Corn, Wheat, Soybeans etc are way up year over year.    In the short term meat prices may go down because the ranchers and cattle yards are selling off stock because of the potential higher input prices of commodities.  How far it will go up will depend on what happens with the rest of the global crops.  Most numbers I have heard thrown around is anywhere from 15 to 30%. 

The thing that you got to know is that even though commodities are going up they are not as big of a part of the total cost as you would think.  Keep in mind when you are talking about Wheat or Corn they use a bushel in pricing it.  A bushel is  a measure of mass or volume but for simplicity they convert it to weight. A bushel of wheat for example is almost 60 pounds.  A bushel of corn is ~ 56 pounds.   Right now several varieties of wheat is around ~8 dollars a bushel.  You can make anywhere from 70 - 100 loaves of bread from a bushel of wheat.  So you got about 11 cents of wheat in a loaf of bread.  Also when you look back wheat used to cost quite a bit more than it does now if you include inflation.  In the 70's wheat got over 26 dollars of current dollars if you adjust it with inflation.

Take this link with a grain of salt.  http://www.zealllc.com/c2007/Zeal101207B.gif

Corn is rather more complicated and while I am getting more exposure to it with my current job (I work for a agricultural irrigation manufacturer) you can assume on the high level stuff they follow each other.

So will things get more expensive in the west? Yep but its going to hurt the 3rd world FAR FAR more.

Parisian brasseries have been all the rage in London in recent years, Steak Tartare is a standard dish and I've had it numerous times to no ill effect. All the places I've eaten source their meat from particular farms though, usually organic grass fed rare breeds and the like, this is high end stuff.  The 45 day rib from Jack O'Shea's is another favourite of mine too. 

I've also recently had some very rare grouse, quail and even a pork chop served just slightly pink, although "pork chop" doesn't really sum up an exquisite marbled hunk of meat from an acorn fed Iberican black foot pig served at Heston Blumenthal's place, which was well worth the risk of brain worms. Even then I left the least cooked bit by the bone.

(http://i.imgur.com/rUOzEh.jpg)

(rest of the meal here: http://edesiaishungry.blogspot.co.uk/ )

So I was in the corporate Meat buyers' area today and saw one of the chaining devices used for forced immobilization of veal...

...with a giant-ass plaque under it saying, "Hi, we don't do this and won't buy from anyone who does."

I didn't even know this was legal anymore.

So I was watching Good Eats, and he was talking about buying and butchering your own tenderloins.

So Costco sells this large tenderloin cut, which Alton called a "PSMO" (or Peeled, Side Muscle On).  The butchering of it was pretty simple, and you end up with three different cuts out of it.  One of these he called the "chain", which ran alongside the center portion and seemed to be a good blend of fat and meat.  He suggested pounding it flat and making a Philly Cheesesteak, which I did, and it kicked ass!  Nevermind getting 8 filet mignon steaks and a nice roasting steak in the bargain.

So my question:  I've never heard of this cut, and it was outstanding.  Are there any other little butcher's secret cuts that stand out amongst the rest of the offerings in the butchers shop that I should be asking about?

Tenderloins and backstrap are the best cuts of meat in my opinion.  We'd usually be down one or two after any hunting trip as we used these for camp meat.  There's a smokehouse between Houston and San Antonio which does smoked pork backstrap.  I can live on that alone for a few days.  (Even for breakfast.)

I've seen this exact show and had differing opinions than Alton.  Chain is pretty spot on, but I didn't like how he butchered the tenderloin.  PSMO isn't really anything special, per se, just the way it comes from the major beef producers.  Tenderloin is tenderloin is tenderloin.

The problem with "secret cuts" is they don't really exist anymore.  Your mom and dad's (or even grandafther and grandmother's) skirt, flank, and oxtail recipes have been popularized by many restaurants and media outlets.  Nowadays a skirt and a flank might cost you as much as a NY strip.

What I look for now is value.  Breaking down a chicken, finding a nice first-cut bone-in chuck roast to process, or finding a couple nice chuck eyes is about the best you can do now that the secrets are out.  Either that or keep your ear to the ground for recipes.