f13.net

Turf.


Grasshopper making the next Fatal Frame? Awesome.
Systems capable of making Fatal Frame Everything People Want it to Be? Obviously, Kikuchi says so.
Coming out for the Wii? Of course.

That's it. Fuck all of you motherfuckers. Every last one of you are going to pay. You are the ones who are the ball lickers.

Why is a good game series coming out on the Wii a bad thing?

Show us on the doll where the Wiimote touched you.

I think "They've Now Invaded My Motherfucking" should be the new internet meme.

Haemish, I'll let that slide bcause you don't know jack fuck about Fatal Frame. But on a list of five series that DEMANDED The hi-def treatment, this would be one of them. Also, it's purely a hardcore niche title - for the types that already own a PS3.

edit: I think "They've Now Invaded My Motherfucking" should be the new internet meme - Field limit :(

Japan owns more than twice as many Wiis as 360s and PS3s combined.  Japanese game comes out on Wii.  Schild expresses shock.

Sold so much more in America that they made an Xbox version. Roac talks, doesn't know particular market for game. Schild expresses concern for his fellow man in the form of calling him "out of his element."

For reals though, it doesn't matter. Grandma and little 8 year old Hochiro isn't going to be buying Fatal Frame. Unless it's Fatal Frame: The Minigame Collection + Ghosts and Happy Flowers.

...and quit doing that by the third version, likely because the sales for xbox were shit.

I didn't realize the other Fatal Frame games were done in HD.

And yet somehow, the Fatal Frame games are listed among one of your most prized series of games.

Fatal Frame 2: Crimson Butterfly was released in 2003 for the PS2 and 2004 for the Xbox.  Tons of HD options then.

Edit: and before schild gets to say it: don't be a donk.

Edit dos: Woah, there was a Fatal Frame 3 in 05? Never noticed.

Read better.

1. It's a series that demands the hi-def treatment. That's to say, it would benefit greatly.
2. I never said anything about where it ranks as a game in my personal library.
3. Don't be a donk. Totally owned by Rasix.

I live amongst donks.

I didn't say it wouldn't benefit from HD. But getting apopleptic over it being put on the Wii is just overreacting and silly. Would you rather the game not be made at all? Because that's what you sound like. As for FF2 being HD on the PS2 and X-Box in HD... I would hardly consider EITHER platform to be an HD platform. Did FF2 for the XBox output in 720p? If not, then it was 480p which is hardly the kind of HD treatment schild says the game demands.

Your pissy because it's getting made on the Wii. You sound like Sandy Vagina Monologues every time a good game or series is slated for the Wii, while also complaining the Wii doesn't have any good games and thus doesn't get turned on. Which is it? Either games which are likely to be good shouldn't be made for the Wii or they should.

EDIT: It is also not donkness to point out that the previous games didn't suffer from lack of 360/PS3 HD capability. They are obviously good games, or else why get pissy when a new version comes out for the hated Wii?

Haemish, shut the fuck up until you play the series. You have no goddamn clue how far off base you are.

Edit: Also:


That's donkness. You can't say something did or didn't suffer from something that DIDN'T EXIST YET. The Fatal Frame stuff, short of a few animation issues was on par with the best the generation had to offer. It had nowhere else to go other than HD. You're just absofuckinglutely wrong on this one.

So you are saying that non-HD Fatal Frame 1, 2 and 3 sucked ass?

You are retarded.

I dunno, game play for the series was always good, but yeah, it does need a step up in the graphics department, but that was mostly hardware limitations, and was kinda grainy from a art direction stand point, but im not sure if it was intentional (id did give a nice feel) or if it was a byproduct of the hardware it was on..and they used it to an advantage.

What i don't get is, why does it being on the WII mean it wont look better than the original games? The Wii is still an improved piece of hardware, its not a ps3, but its got some power, And its really up to the artists anyway.

EDIT: Spelling and more thoughts.

I take it that's a no.

It kicks ass when Haemish and schild have their lover's quarrels.  :Love_Letters:

 :popcorn:

Look, you and your $250 piece of shit party console with it's giant reticle and complete lack of precision can stagnate the minigame and board game and nintendo 1st party industry as much as it wants. This, what we're looking at here, was exactly my worry from the beginning. And it looks as though, with this particular announcement, that I was fucking right from the beginning. You can't get it through your fucking skull, OK - but you should really try to learn about the series before you try to defend this particular decision.

Don't make me den this!  :evil: :evil: :evil:

Just want to say this:

Lots of people own the Wii.  Lots of people like the Wii.  Some games will come out exclusively for the Wii, this will be disappointing.  Get over it.

On the bright side at least some good games are coming out for the Wii.

From a different angle, I just don't see Wii owners buying this game.  While this may be the start of "good" gamer type games going to the Wii, is the install base compatible with this type of game?  :| 

Edit: or yah, what Ookii said.  This just seems like a chicken/egg scenario.  FF isn't a system seller, but it may be palatable for people upgrading their gamecube.

Now i am confused, what part has you so mad? The graphics treatment, or the use of a wii mote?

As a side note: i wont be doing the resident evil 4 port for the wii, as they put it on rails, and your right, the mote has some accuracy issues.

I've played Fatal Frame. It was ok, I don't see why it matters what system it's on. As has been pointed out the art direction is purposely dark and grainy.

Schild is funny. At least the thread title delivers.

"But getting apopleptic over it being put on the Wii is just overreacting and silly."

Haemish meet Schild.


Huh? It's no more "on rails" than the original game. What in the world are you talking about?

This should be a podcast.

I actually find this a little insulting as Haemish, defender of all that is Wii has said ridiculous dumbass short-sighted shit about HD and the next-gen in general. And yet, he jumps in to defend the Wii on a series he doesn't know a motherfucking thing about simply because it involves The Little System That Could But Won't.

As in, you move along a rail, and shoot zombies that pop out, as opposed to "walking" your guy around? From what i have seen , and read, it will be like one of those arcade games with the guns you see in movie theaters and coin operated arcades (cant think of the name of one).

Am i mistaken? its been a bit since i have looked at it again.

EDIT: Know what, i just watched a newer video, i'm wrong. An earlier video on line made it appear that way to me...and i must have read some bad previews, lol.

Bloodworth, it doesn't really matter since the reticle went from

o


to

o

Grasshopper Manufacture.  I will probably like it, but it will be as popular as Killer7 on GC.  Sky blue.  World turns.

I want to get MP: Corruption before I really start dispensing the wiimote accuracy bile.  It seems to vary by software title, but unfortunately I only have Twilight Princess, MySims and a baker's dozen minigame collections to measure by.  I could certainly use a "my livingroom is bigger than a dorm-room" version of the hardware, that much is certain.

Bloodworth might be thinking of the Umbrella Chronicles game?

Well, they gotta do something about the twitchy tracking.

Other than that, i think i posed a few questions to you, when you catch your breath, id like to hear whats got you riled up about this.

Also, did they say exclusive?


Your right, it does seem to vary from software to software, but my experiences haven't been to good to date, but that system is my girlfriends so, i don't get a lot of time on it, nor are there many titles that im interested in.

As to the last line, maybe, ill have to look. I know, and can recall a RE game "On rails" recently. Seems i am confused at to what one..or if at all. It even had the > or < or ^ icons to choose a direction...

RE5, looks hot.

Bloodworth, the Resident Evil 4 port for the Wii is exactly the PS2 version, only it uses the Wiimote. If you haven't played the RE4 game, you should get it. If you have played and beaten RE4 on the Wii, only get it if you like replaying games you've already played. It's not on rails.

The game you are talking about is the Umbrella Chronicles game. It WILL be a game on rails, much like the PS2 RE light gun game whose name I forget.

I don't defend everything Wii. There have been some shit games put out for the system, using half-assed waggle controls just because it's on the Wii. I blogged about that very thing just this morning.

But the heart of schild's complaint is that a good game is coming out on the Wii, when he feels it should be coming out on an HD system. And that a development company who has a good track record is somehow going to make a sloppy interface just because the game will use a Wiimote, when there are games on the system that prove the hardware isn't sloppy, but some developers are. Or that's it is somehow going to stagnate the video game industry because a good game is coming out on the Wii.

If I've mistaken the gist of your argument, please enlighten little old retarded me. From where I'm sitting, you are the one making retarded arguments.

Most PS2/Xbox owners didn't buy the previous games either.  I don't think any of them ever became Greatest Hits games in the U.S. (although I hear they did in Japan).

Yep, already did RE4 on PS2.

Bloodworth, ever since that loot thread I've just been ignoring your questions because it's like you're broadcasting in some alien tongue.

And had you read the thread, I have been pissed about both the HD and the waggle. last I checked, you can be pissed about both.

-


Actually, as much as I like Suda51 and Grasshopper, they're a mess. But that's actually besides the point. Whether or not the game turns out good at all, it should not be going to the Wii. As a series, it would benefit more on the other systems. But it's going to the Wii because it's cheap as fuck and has a large install base. Now, did I say that this one event would stagnate the industry? No, but the Wii very obviously stagnated the industry enough that Tecmo/Grasshopper think that this is an OK decision.

I don't want to speak for schild, but I believe I understand his concern, and after I watched the WiiFit demonstration I have subscribed to his newsletter (and reading his post after I wrote this, I think we're on the same page).  Basically, we are only hoping that FF for Wii is going to be good, Grasshopper or not, so we can't use that in the equation.  What we can use, however, is the Wii target audience and the current list of games for the Wii.  The list of Games with a Capital G for Wii is something like Twilight Princess, Metroid Prime 3 and... uh, can I count RE4?  Pretty much everything else I have played is either developed by the red-stapler crew at EA or something that makes Parker Brothers and Milton Bradley roll their eyes.  It's pretty much a handheld with no built-in screen in the eyes of game developers, meaning they are putting the third-string studios on it.

Secondly, and most importantly, the popularity of it is going to -- I predict -- do to traditional console gaming what PopCap and consoles have done to traditional PC games: throw it into a niche and piss on it.

I could be overreacting, but I see patterns in the industry that lend themselves toward this theory.

Well that sucks.


I dunno, i think you may be having to many assumptions about the wii, looking at the other games on it (The resident evil games), i don't think this version will, NOT be an improvement over the original titles on the earlier hardware (as far as graphics, not necessarily art direction).

As to the wii-mote, i assume you were looking forward to the sixaxis controls of the ps3... So it cant be that much a a departure from that.

Uh, no.


Like I said, alien tongue, this doesn't make any sense.

Well, then i don't know what to say to you. The first part, you don't explain, anything. The second... you don't tell me what part you don't understand. So, i'm left with nothing to try to bridge the gap.

I will just try to restate.

I think that graphically, this version on the wii, will be better than the earlier ones with out changing the art direction.(Using the Resident evil Wii games as a sort of bench mark) Is it HD? Maybe not.. but the series has always been gritty..

I would expect that even on the Ps3, that the controls for this title would be close to what they are going to use for the wii.

Earth tongue Version: I understand your concerns, but don't share them.

Hell, Peggle is fun. Whats wrong with companies making fun games again? Since I'm an MMO whore, I'm used to dealing with non fun. The demise of PC games came long before Popcap started making games. It was when all the small, talented software dev houses got scooped up by larger corporate entities...and we stopped seeing games by guys like Sid Meier.

So I played peggle and did every challenge and cleared every peg off every board. And I had fun doing it. Looking back at this post, its pretty pointless but fuck it I'm this fun in I might as well hit the post

Yeah. So? It's funny.

Don't make me Invade Your Motherfucking.

My motherfucking is made of win.

I played the Peggle demo that came with The Team Fortress 2 Box (previously termed The Orange Box) and I can say that I had more fun playing through that in one session than I have had for almost the entire run of Wii gaming.  I'm just not able to think of a PC equivalent of WarioWare: Smooth Moves or Mario Party 8 since I don't buy my PC games at the checkout counter of the grocery store, so my analogy kinda sucks.  Those games, they are indeed fun, but not FUN or AWESOME like, say, Bioshock or Galactic Civilizations 2 or what-have-you.  I'm just very paranoid of a "all restaurants are Taco Bell" situation.

I've said it before and I'll likely say it again, but if you want to cry about stuff like Fatal Frame going to the Wii, blame Sony for releasing a machine that most of the PS2 fanbase can't afford.  Don't blame Nintendo for taking advantage of the fact that even after two generations as the industry leader, Sony still apparently has no understanding of it's fanbase.

No, they understand. They wouldn't have gotten where they are if they didn't. It's just that Greed got the best of the them (Blu-Ray). That's really the only complication when it comes down to it. But it may pay off yet.

As I wrote in my blog today, if that is the developers attitude towards the system, sure it'll fail spectacularly because the developers will be doing their goddamnedest to sabotage the console from the start. And those developers should be out of business for tossing away good money on a system with such a large install base. If developers can't be arsed to create a good game on a system because it doesn't have impressive graphics, they should fucking burn up in an MMOG fire and be gone from the goddamn industry.

The video game industry used to be about creating fun experiences.

Dude. There's no reason to develop for the Wii when 250k+ PS2s sell worldwide each month and it has an install base of over 120M.

Or you could develop for the PS2 AND the Wii, since the graphic capabilities are similar, and sell more copies with just a bit more development time.

There's plenty of reason to develop for the Wii. It's popular among the mass market. It's trendy. It's a next-gen system without a next-gen development budget. You can develop a similar game for about 1/4 the cost of a PS3/360 game. You can port a PS2 version with minimal extra cost.

Theoretically. But real games actually sell on the PS2.

Thus far, they aren't on the Wii - not outside of Japan at least. Well, no, that's a crock of shit. They're not selling inside of Japan either. Dr. Kawashima has a bridge to sell you though. But only if you identify which one of these words is not like the other. Here, have a minigame.

And therein is your problem. You're defending a trendy system. A system that's trendy among the type of people who have no interest in stuff like Fatal Frame. I can guarantee it'll sell even less copies than the PS2/Xbox Crimson Butterfly releases. Just like Madden 08. And yet, those of us who DO want to buy it are fucked. All we can hope for is a PS2 release of it so we don't have to deal with a motherfucking waggle wand.

Popcap games are not the cause of the PC market decline, they are the result. The same is true of the Wii and hardcore games.

Games cost more and more to make but have flat returns. PC games have compatibility issues and a lot of cost associated with them, Popcap games are cheap to make and are much simpler to make work on a variety of systems.

Making a modern game takes 10x the money it took a few years ago, and sales have not kept up. That means publishers have to either find new markets or cut costs, or both.

The current environment simply cannot support a mass of AAA titles, they cost too much to make and too few of them sell well. That's just reality. An HD Fatal Frame is going to sell the same number of companies at twice the cost to produce. Sounds like a winner.

None of that is the fault of Nintendo or Popcap, it's the fault of demographics and stagnant (relative to cost) markets and the fault of hardware manufacturers and tools makers that keep increasing the cost of development to output the same product.

Could you take your graphics whoring Sony fanboy attitudes and shove it up your ass for a while?  I mean Nintendo succeeding in utterly bitchslapping both the PSP and the PS3 has already made you so freakin butthurt it should slide in easily.

But since you won't give it a rest, let's look at facts.

Fact 1: HI DEF DOES NOT MAKE FOR BETTER GAMES.  Prettier and sharper does not mean more fun.  Mechwarrior 4 was fun as fuck at 800 by 600 on a 15" screen.  1280 res on a 24" did not magically make it fucking better.  Stop jerking off high def like its some goddamned savior of gaming.  ITS MORE FUCKING PIXELS ON SCREEN.  Hasn't graphics resolution continually upped over the years?  Atari 2600 had less than the systems afterwards and so on.  Its just TV sets finally hit a point they couldn't show any more pixels. 

Fact 2: NINTENDO BEAT SONY. GET OVER IT.  Overly expensive systems with half ass controllers and multiple purposes that LESSEN THE MACHINES FROM BEING GOOD GAME SYSTEMS do not win.  Long load times on the PSP and the sheer price of Blu Ray fucked them from the start.  Nintendo made BETTER FUN MACHINES.  The technical specs are lower, but the games are better. 

Fact 3: THERE ARE PLENTY OF FUCKING GAMES TO GO AROUND.  NEWBIE FRIENDLY WILL NOT KILL GAMING.  I would say shit like Madden, Halo, and GTA are far more dangerous to gaming than a system designed to bring everyone into gaming.  You know what you sound like dude?  The faggots who play Warhammer 40K and insult any of the prepainted miniatures games coming out, afraid that PLAYING GAMES FOR FUN will ruin their little elitist snob paradise because now people can make pew pew with their toy soldiers without having to spend months gluing and painting the bastards.  Who usually have less fucking skulls on their armor.  (Man AT43 is cool.) With a wide variety of people coming to the Wii, maybe more niche titles will be released as opposed to the current GTA/SPORTS/FPS bullshit.  Id love more quality turn based games.  You aren't gonna see many on the PS3 or 360 outside of digital download stuff.  Sure, there will be a few Weeaboo releases with the 900 year old barely dressed daemonesses who look 10 to have porno comics drawn of them, but not too many games like X Com, Heroes of Might & Magic, Master of Orion, or that sort.  Wii development is cheap enough to do this as a retail SKU.

Fact 4: WE GO OVER THIS EVERY FEW WEEKS WITH YOU AND ITS GETTING OLD.  I seriously feel like a dick yelling at you, but you seem to be 50 pounds of wrong in a 5 pound bag, spilling your wrong all over the place.  I give you credit for not having a banninating FUCK YOU NINTENDO DICKS meltdown and all, but damn dude!  I almost wonder if its all just an intentional gimmick to get discussions going!  :oops:

I thought the Dreamcast was better than the PS2 yet the PS2 won. I got over it.

Nobody has to get over anything on the Internet.  We're all just one-dimensional stereotypes- that's how we've survived in this community for so long.

I stopped posting in these threads to avoid popping an artery like Jain just did up there ;)

I agree, but by the end of the PS2 lifecycle, it had the best library in the history of gaming. Nintendo is going to have trouble keeping ahead of the combined might of the PS3/360 combo in terms of AAA titles though. The aforementioned Fatal Frame is not a AAA game. But actual third party (not Ninty, Sony or MS) AAA games will be 360/PS3 titles. The attachment rates are higher, the number of gamers who buy AAA games is higher, and the number of companies WHO WANT to chase the shiny is higher. The Nintendo isn't capable of winning like the PS2 was because no developers have the balls to challenge Nintendo themselves on AAA games. Capcom is throwing them a bone with Zack & Wiki, but the PS360 combo is getting Dead Rising 2, any new fighting games, the real Resident Evil titles, etc.

Ironically, one title that I would've like to see on the Wii, Echochrome, is going to the PS3. Granted, Sony bought that guy.

Anyway, Jain Zar doesn't get it. Nintendo's third party support is still dick. Particularly in the AAA title area, and no one is buying actual Wii games. They're all buying the minigame collection. I would bet Fatal Frame would sell better on the PS3 than the Wii, but it's a bet that will never come to fruition. Fatal Frame isn't that big of a series :(. But then, neither is Disgaea, and that's going to the PS3, so you never know. N1 owes Sony though, heh.

Oh, right. Persona 4 and Shin Megami Tensei 4 is PS3 also. Oh, so is Makai Wars. Not to mention that every MAJOR SRPG portable title has gone to the PSP.

Here's the reality of it Jain, Sony's going to fucking force feed the hardcore gamers, and they NEED TO this time and I get that. Nintendo is sitting on a fucking mountain looking down and laughing. Unfortunately, that mountain is made of PS2s. Not to mention Nintendo will never have a title that will sell like Halo 3 or a next-gen Madden/big sports title.

That is to say, yea, I'm fucking pissed when Nintendo wins the small victories like Fatal Frame. Even then, it's a system that shouldn't have gotten it. Less hardcore gamers means less attach numbers which means less continuation of loved series. In the long run, it hurts people like me. Grandma isn't buying Fatal Frame. Neither is your mother. Or sister. And that sucks my balls.

Also, and you fucking know this, a hi-def well designed game is more fun than the same game in low-def. That's the fucking reality of it. I'm willing to play at any resolution. I love that the PSP2 outputs to a fucking TV.

So here's where we are. Nintendo won't beat Sony until PS2 sales die off. That's not going to happen until the PS3 hits sub $300. And at that point, there's going to be enough wacky 3rd party titles that Microsoft and Sony will be stomping all over Nintendo's dick. Around that same time, Nintendo will probably come out with another system. Which, ironically, will probably just be hit with a lot of cross platform shit.

The Wii exists because Nintendo couldn't AFFORD to compete on the hi-def arena due to shit poor Gamecube sales. And they've always done a good job of letting the handheld market fund the handheld market. It's been quite a seperation ever since the gameboy days.

Also, you're never going to get your XCom's and Masters of Orion games again. You're gonna have to deal with hot 900 year old demonesses. So fucking cope.


You mean like the PS2?

what

Nintendo needs to stop invading schild when he is motherfucking.

As long as it's someone elses mother, I'm fine with it.

FUCKFUCKFUCKFUCKFUCKFUCKFUCKFUCKFUCKFUCK


...Damnit.

I agree with the '???' over that. The Wii has old more PS3s, but that's one tiny part of a bigger picture. The PS2 is still immensely profitable for Sony and the theory is that while this is still the case, there is no reason to really drive PS3 sales. Especially if that would hurt PS2 sales. So Sony puts out the PS3, lets developers get used to its development tools and throws the first punch in the next-gen DVD market.

Here are the questions that keeps Wii development studios up at night: are all those casual non-gamers who picked up a Wii because it was fun to wave the Wiimote around going to go out and buy more games? And games of a different type? Are those party game players actually going to go out and buy an RTS, an X-Com clone, a HOMM clone etc? If they do buy more games, how many games are they going to buy? And are they simply going out to get the next Nintendo first party release of Nintendogs: Revenge of the Nintendogs, or are they going to buy a third party game like Fatal Frame?

But this is all premature. It's going to take 3 - 5 years for the dust to settle and to see how all this falls out. Nintendo hasn't beaten Sony by a long way at this point, but it has probably landed a few decent body blows. And Microsoft continues to make up big strides.

That would work if the Xbox 360 didn't exist.

Crossfire - f13.net edition

I don't think the reality of what happened with the PS3 met with Sony's expectations. But the PS3 doesn't have the games yet to take it to MS, so they are sticking to it for now.

Unless you meant that MS had the Xbox to consider when launching the Xbox 360. In that case, I think they went about it the right way - dropping support for the old and suggesting everyone move to the new. Which worked because the PS3 wasn't worth waiting for and the Wii could work nicely as a secondary console, or not be bought at all.

Ahh.. time for a post of reiteration of shit I've said before.

I have a Wii. I like fake bowling. I like minigames. No, I haven't actually turned it on in about 6 months. I'm waiting for Mario Strikers and Mario Party to hit an EBgames sale, then I'll buy 'em. I'm not interested in struggling through anything that requires a real controller to play I certainly won't bother buying on the Wii.

I have a PS2 (two in fact). The one in the lounge only gets turned on for Guitar Hero. I haven't bothered with other console games in months. The one in the bedroom is basically a backup, and has never been used for gaming sine I got it over Christmas.

I have an X-Box (two in fact). The gamng one hasn't been turned on for longer then the Wii. The Media Centre gets used all the time. Best. Investment. Evar.

I don't have a 360. I'd probably buy one when I feel safe that red-ring-a-rosie is a thing of the past. And when it gets a fair bit cheaper, too. Since the games are just the same shit, only shinier.

I don't have a PS3. I'll buy one eventually, when the price drops to a fraction of what it costs now. Since the games are just the same shit, only shinier. Blu-Ray can generally go fuck itself.


For Jain Zar~
I haven't played AT-43 yet, but my own objections to their pre-painted figures is that they aren't nearly as good quality as Rackham's metal sculpts, nor are they of as good quality as GW's plastics. The paintjobs or pre-paintedness I have no inherent problem with, but their prices make them more expensive (and in some cases significantly more so) than GW's figures. While I have no objections to others using their paintjobs, they're not something I'd use when I can knock up something better in a day. If they were cheaper I'd gladly give them a shot, using their prepaints as base coat. Probably.

Also, the Wii hasn't beaten Sony. This round of console wars has barely begun, and Ninty said from the start that they were playing a different game this time.

Also, I hate it when things invade My Motherfucking.

What I meant was Sony can not not try and drive PS3 sales as you implied when it has the Xbox 360 as competition. Publishers have already committed one way or another for the current crop of games in development but you can bet that the next time that decision has to be made they'll be looking very closely at installed base numbers and hardware sales trends to decide which platform to develop their next big titles for (assuming it isn't already a cross-platform title).

Wow this thread is out of fucking control.

If you ain't out of control, you ain't in control.

^_^ i will try to spread the motherfucking  :-D it's so catchy

memes seem to be a living thing some times... like the more you try to make on catch on, the less possible it will be for it to become staple...

Anything that brings back the hate has my vote.


Which means um, nothing.

HATE!

I'm out of hate. I just hope everyone gets a nice set of choices, no matter what platform they like. Getting shafted out of specific titles isn't as big of a deal so much as having little representation in entire game genres. It sucks if you have a console that lacks, say, a solid fighter or racing sim, or some decent platformers, or a good online shooter. That sucked about the failed platforms of the past, and it'll suck if it happens to anyone these days too.

No no. Reread your post. You're full of hate. You're just tired.

I'm too lazy to search through the forums and see whether you've ever made any 'gameplay is the most important thing, graphics don't matter' statements, Schild.  I'll just trust that you haven't, because if you had, this would make you a horrible fucking hypocrite.

I have a PS3 and I very much like pretty graphics, but I am 100% behind good, adult games being on the Wii.  Eternal Darkness and RE4 proved that the Gamecube was capable of playing disks that didn't contain cartoons or minigames, and it's high time that the same fact was established for the Wii.  I want to see good old-fashioned blood-soaked horror games becoming Wii bestsellers.  I'd like to use the wiimote to swing the baseball bat in GTA to club a hooker.

The Wii's 480p widescreen is unquestionably the least-powerful graphics of the new console generation, but it's still entirely adequate.  In my time of playing Twilight Princess and Metroid Corruption, not once did I ever stop and think, 'Man, these graphics suck.', nor did I ever think, 'These controls blow!'  The Wii has enough power and control to be the host of any game in the market, and it is my sincere hope that game developers will make an effort to provide it with a good library of games.  Of every genre, not just party games and cutesey platformers.

I want the same for the PS3, of course, but I don't consider its graphics to be mandatory for a game to be awesome.

Funny. When I played Zelda, that's exactly what I thought. That those graphics blow. Wind Waker, which I didn't even like, was 50x more appealing.

Also, as I said, I played Disgaea. Hell all of the N1 games. Arguably any of those games could have been on the PS1. I've probably spent over 200 hours on them all combined. But when a game suffers because of the console choice, I get pissed. Fatal Frame is a what WOULD HAVE SHOULD HAVE COULD HAVE BEEN situation.

It'll be fine on the Wii. It'll be like playing it on the PS2 with a shitty imprecise lightgun. But I would have preferred it be on the PS3. Anyone who spent time with Fatal Frame 3 and saw how skilled those artists were no doubt think the exact same thing.

Daddy? Is that you?
Lack of HD can make good games less enjoyable, though.

If they are asking that question, they've already lost and will be an also-ran putting out niche games in 3 years. No, those party game players AREN'T going to buy an RTS, or an X-Com clone or an HOMM clone, because those aren't the kind of games that interest them. Those are niche titles, and in the realm of the mass market, most of the hardcore gamer titles we are traditionally used to are niche titles as well. That's WHY the PC gaming industry has lost so much steam, because it never understood that the genres it chose to develop are and always will be niche genres in the mass market.

That doesn't mean those games should not be made, but they have to be made with that in mind. Which means targeting your budget for a niche market, making MORE games with smaller budgets and very specific target audiences. And guess what? You can fund those niche-y hardcore games with party games, mini-game collections and such.


They might go out and buy a game like Fatal Frame. Or they might only go out and buy Nintendogs. Or they might go out and buy games in genres that are not currently being served well. Think about a game like that Ace Attorney series from Japan, a game which is essentially a lawyer drama TV series. American companies aren't making lawyer drama TV series unless they can make a dirt cheap game that's licensed from a popular TV series and as a game is TOTAL SHIT. But those games get bought despite being total shit because they are from genres that mainstream buyers can attach to. They won't buy Ace Attorney because it's too anime/Japanese, but they sure would buy a Boston Legal game. And imagine if that Boston Legal game was actually a decent game, with the same kind of design seriousness that Japanese devs put into Ace Attorney?

The fucking video game development crowd needs to get off their high-goddamn-horse and start branching into mainstream genres like lawyer dramas or soap operas and produce some really knocked out versions of those games instead of licensed drivel. You know, INNOVATE instead of just trying to toss more pixels at a shoot-em-up.

Not to me. Perfect example - WoW vs. EQ2. Both good game design (now) for what they are, but I enjoy WoW better.

I'm confused on how that's a perfect example.

He's saying: WoW = suck graphics, Eq2 = slightly less suck graphics.

And yet he still plays WoW. 

EQ2's graphics are hi-def, hi-res, technologically superior to WoW's low-res, low-poly graphics engine. EQ2's game design is to me a bit inferior to WoW's and thus I play WoW instead of EQ2. They are both good games, but I enjoy the lack of HD WoW more because of better game design.

EQ2 graphics were technically superior, WoW's were artistically superior. You could say the same thing in regards to Zelda: Wind Waker and Zelda: Twilight Princess. This doesn't address the HD/Non-HD issue. A better example would be that EQ2 is better to play at 1600x1200 than it is to play at 800x600.

This is a great ideal and technically possible, but economically it's not likely to happen.  The Wii target demographic isn't interested in Eternal Darkness, unless it is a ED-themed version of Duck Hunt.  They don't want to crack bitches over the head with wiimotes.  They especially don't want to use crotchsaws.  The Wii is in it's own area, and a real game being banished to Wii exclusivity... well, I'd like for it to do well and I hope it does.  I'm just suspicious that it won't.  Time will tell.

I found Twilight Princess graphics to be terribly underwhelming.  I'd have prefered a Wind Waker style which was much more suited to the system it was made for.  That said, Super Paper Mario also failed to impress me visually.  I have just gotten used to antialiasing on all of my other machines, I guess.

I nominate Raph for the Jon Stewart role!

What can I say about F13?  It's really my favorite website in the entire universe!  I love the irreverent banter and sly wit these keyboard jockeys produce.  And I especially love the staff, they're AWESOME.

This is more my point. It's not about design or asthetics. I'm talking about having better technology rendering your game makes the game experience better. I'd rather look at a game at 1280x720 with full HDR/FSAA/AF/Shaders than at a 480i tv picture with stretched textures and aliasing, lacking shadows or shaders. Same game, less of a gaming experience. I'm talking apples to apples to remove 'x is a better game than y'. So WoW on your pc vs WoW on your tv set (not /my/ tv set just to satisfy my contractual grief title requirements).

I think the Wii is a cool system, I just don't think I'd enjoy it due to lack of titles. Same reason I don't have a PS3 or 360, and I'm wavering on the 360. If I watched a lot of movies, I'd probably get a PS3. I play PC games, I embrace the niche. It costs more overall, but I can play the exclusives I want and play better-looking versions of the multiplatform stuff (except shit like Madden porting the PS2 version wtbanana). I'm not here for the 'my platform is best' argument, I'm just saying that other things being equal, HD makes games more enjoyable, unless you have an sdtv and exclude pc games (a big unless).

From a bystander's perspective it seems the 360 won this round. Good titles, hd-dvd, strong online, strong 720p with some 1080p support.

The 360 has nothing but a head start; the Wii's already outsold it and the PS3 is finally starting to get to its feet after that disastrous start.  The 360's online play requires monthly fees, the hardware has giant gaping flaws (the demo 360 in my closest Gamestop has red-ringed, amusingly), the HD-DVD costs $180 for an external player, it's the only console without built-in wireless network support, and so far as I'm aware it doesn't have native 1080p, rather upscaling 720p games to 1080 output.

The 360 has definitely won this round, despite all the problems. Technical deficiences never hurt the PS2's sales. That year's head start is crucial, especially when followed up by a plethora of good games.

I've never argued that HD won't improve a good game. Of course it will. HD graphics will definitely improve a GOOD game, but they aren't NECESSARY for a game to be good, nor will tossing HD graphics on a shitty game (Lair) make it any less shitty.

I sympathize with SChild over Fatal Frame going to the Wii. The Fatal Frame series was really impressive visually on the old PS2, and what with the photo-saving you could do and the pants-shitting atmosphere the series pretty much demands to be played in high-def on a big badass TV with 5.1 or better surround sound (neither of which the Wii supports. Nintendo short-changed us on sound output too).

Fatal Frame 1-3 had shitty controls but I'd rather have shitty controls and the superior atmosphere that could afforded by the 360/PS3 than be able to waggle my controller and play Pokemon Ghost Snap.

what

I don't know what the hell any of you are talking about, but this is still the most entertaining thread I've read all month.

Is there a part of that you'd like to argue with?

He's just in denial. For hardcore gamers the 360 has pretty much won, in the U.S. and Europe at least. It's basically in the same position that the PS2 was in in relation to the XBOX. The XBOX was a superior machine but the PS2 had a headstart and a wider library and cost less. The only thing the PS3 has going for it is uhhh...Metal Gear Solid and Japanese RPGs eventually. The slightly better graphics are offset by the price difference and most gamers don't give two shits about Blu Ray.

Uh. What more did the PS2 have than Metal Gear Solid and Japanese RPGs? Ratchet and Clank and God of War and Ueda's Stuff? They've still got that shit too.

I think people need to go examine the PS2 library and the upcoming PS3 one. They're frighteningly similar.

Most of the PS2y/Dreamcasty stuff the 360 got has been absolute shit - Bullet Witch, Vampire's Rain, etc. It's won no major victories in that regard.

There's a lesson in there somewhere.

Not the lesson you're thinking of though.

A lack of any solid competition for the first year?  GTA3 a couple years before the Xbox got it (with a similar trend for all of the other GTA games)?  GTA3, Gran Turismo 3, MGS2, and FFX all out before the end of their second holdiay season in the U.S. (note: that's 4 out of the 5 top selling franchises on the PS2)?

Gran Turismo 5, MGS 4 and FFXIII are all coming out before the end of their second holiday season this time also. Though FF will probably be pushed into the holiday season to deal with whatever MS and Ninty have.

This is their second holiday season.  The PS3 was released during the last holiday season.

Edit:  To phrase it more clearly, the PS2 launched Oct. 26th, 2000 in the US.  By the end of 2001 those games had been released.  PS3 launched on Nov. 11, 2006.  The earliest any of those games will be released is MGS4 in what looks to be March of 2008.

Those are some good answers, even if you sound like Warren Ellis when he talks about comics.

I probably should have said 'potential Wii development studios', because they'd want to get some of those questions answered before they thought about developing a game for the Wii. But you're right - if they are asking those questions, they've already missed the point.

Which is why I think the Wii will miss out on a lot of third-party support - devs have to wrap their head around how to use the Wiimote in their games. Now, I hardly follow what is coming out each week on the Wii, but the games I have seen are party games, FPSs and sword-fighting games. The mainstream (read: PC) FPS devs work by developing games that need huge computer power to drive high frames-per-second in a graphically intensive environment. That's not something the Wii is set up for, so they won't be developing for the Wii as a priority. Party games and sword fighting games need accurate controls, which third party devs seem not to have yet mastered in Wii game development. Other devs, while publicly praising the Wii's innovation, don't seem to be driven to work out how to develop games around a control scheme that isn't a handheld / keyboard + mouse.

All the talk of the Wii's installed player base means very little if (like the N64 and Gamecube behind it) it doesn't get the third party support it needs (above and beyond the shovelware that ends up on all consoles, of course).

Id say their plastics are superior overall.  A little softer plastic, but only a little.  And the paint jobs are LIGHT YEARS better than what I can accomplish, and are designed to either be primed over and fully repainted, or painted on top of.  I am not sure what paint they use or how they managed to have the best prepaints out there (only Heroscape comes close and that's what having Hasbro as a published gets you...), but compared to the stuff from Wizkids, Reaper, and WotC its grade A stuff.  It doesn't match high grade Golden Demon quality paint jobs, but its toy soldiers in 3d for some folks like me.  I have better things to do in my free time than assemble and paint miniatures.  I am resentful all my free time for one entire week was spent assembling and basecoating a 1500 point Tau megaforce that already had one assembled tank from back when House was in its first season.  (Its pretty much made me swear off any painting till after Halloween at least.  I might clean up and prime my Battletech mechs, but that'll be about it.)  The game system is good, the prices are pretty reasonable overall (Full color army books for 12 bucks retail?  Dreadnought sized machines either cheaper or bigger and the same price?  Heck, their Terminator sized models are about the same cost.), and look cool (The Defender Snake is possibly one of the RADDEST miniature Dreadnought sized models I have seen.  Only some of the Warmachine Jacks come close.) plus the story is pretty awesome and not because its ridiculously silly.  (Korean War in space NATO vs Russian analogues who also have to fight off/deal with sentient gorillas in powered armor who smoke cigars & wear eyepatches and a transhuman alien race who wants to put every star in the universe into Dyson spheres so the universe will never die out.  And they put the humans on the planet in the first place to prep the world for it!)  Ill give you their old Confronation stuff blows away what we have seen of the prepaint plastics for that though.

Ok, that's enough on miniatures wargames probably 2 people give a shit about.

On to other things: I really wasn't angry at Schild.  Its more blowing off steam from work at an easy target.  (Doubling my feelings of GIANT DOUCHE WHY ARE YOU SAYING MEAN THINGS? as its not very nice.  Amusing in an utterly childish way though.)

I do think the Wii has a good chance at making niche games do well.  A wider audience and cheaper dev cost means more games other than RTS/FPS/Sports/Gangster have a chance to flourish.  Heck, Wii Ware's earliest releases include Impossible Mission remake!  (COME STAY A WHILE, STAY FOREVER!!)  I would probably be DUMB to hope for remakes of other classics like Archon, H.E.R.O., and pretty much EA's entire RPG library rights  (Ok, completely fucking stupid put down the goddamned crackpipe for the latter because EA are a giant shitstain on the unwashed underpants that is the games industry.) among other things.  (But imagine an updated Adventure Construction set using the Wiimote to place stuff.  With the new keyboard thingie it would probably be better suited to XBLA though..)

With the retro content there are a ton of genres the Wii already has a game for. 

(Of course the 360 has even more and NEW ones.  Catan and Carcasonne now with Talisman coming soon?  ROCK.)

The PS3 seemingly doesn't want to pull any of this action.

And as to HD, don't get me wrong it does look nicer, but improved resolutions don't make games more funner-er-er, its more dickwaving really.  Megamek isn't much improved by upmoded resolutions, neither is some of the other titles I have tested like Links 2003, Mechwarrior 4 Mercenaries, or Dawn of War.  Its generally NICE TO HAVE, but it doesn't blow my mind or anything. 
See, this is nice, but it doesn't really accomplish much being sharper and more pixels in motion. 
(http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1085/1132714693_9e61ea6d0c_b.jpg)

And just because yall want some hate, I leave you with a little courtesy of  a 20 dollar waste of money I bought a month or so back:

(http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1148/1248121952_ac771713df_o.jpg)

3 Wii games have scored above 90% on metacritic.
50 scored below 69%.

Just saying.

Without looking: Twilight Princess, RE4 and Metroid Prime?

Jain Zar, you think you can post more pics of your toy collection?

Art direction is king, something i tried to point out before in this thread,... With my alien thought rays. I do not think the graphics for fatal frame will suffer from the  "Less power" hardware of the wii. In fact, it may even be better for it.

I see a lot of games that make bad choices , just because they have the hardware to ..er..."Cover it up" (Never really does). Then i see games aimed at lesser hardware, or some other type of limitation... Have really strong art direction, because they had little elbow room, and they used it to an advantage.

Whoever the fuck came up with bloom effects needs to rot and die and be pissed on by a thousand slugs that transmit anal cysts through urine. The big thing about Halo 3 that bothered me was how the General or whoever the fucks hat would GLOW. WHY DOES HIS HAT GLOW!? IT DOESN'T HAPPEN IN REAL LIFE!

Bloom effect can be used well, to add a subtle effect that really changes the mood.

Or it can be over used badly...

I like bloom effects. Maybe you haven't done enough acid yet.

Nah.  I'm getting ready to sell about half of it off anyhow.  Kinda silly to have and a big waste of money really.  Plus it makes dusting a bitch!

HERE IS YOUR HD-GAMING JESUS:

(http://upsilandre.free.fr/images/Halo3nativereso.jpg)

(http://www.aeropause.com/archives/l_78723385afe9186ad0a76b33c88a0c01.jpg)

Splendiferous!

Took me a while to figure out what that was. Ha ha.

Well, assembling and painting the toy soldiers has been a part of the hobby for years, so while I'm fine if you just want to play the wargames with them, it's not a really big deal that assembly is (usually) part of the genre. As I said, if you're happy with the paintwork then again that's cool. It's just that for me they are base coats at best, so to me, compared to GW they're slightly inferior sculpts selling at a slightly inflated price due to the paint which I wouldn't "keep". They are light years ahead of The Wizkids/Star Wars Miniatures/Heroclix level stuff, but so is the price, being from Rackham. The first scenery pack is good value though, the one with the shipping container and the searchlight things. I do like the Snake, (I don't think much of the regular variant of that thing) but it costs about $80 here, which is more than a GW dread, so small chance in hell of me buying something like that these days. I'll pay near double that for a Baneblade, though. The monkey-boys do look cool as well, though.