f13.net

Gary Gattis -  original SWG.
Brandon Reinhart - Was GreenMarine from SWG.
Jeff Freeman - SWG  fame.
Anthony L. Sommers - Original SWG team,
Cinco Barnes - Original SWG team,
Niklas “Swede” Johansson - Worked on SWG
Eli Holding - SWG  designer

I'm not so hasty to agree with Triforcer. Were any of those guys involved with JtL?

Because that was pretty awesome. My bets would be on them taking the feedback about the one good part of SWG and running with it. Can they make an entire game around it without getting all AA? Guess we'll see.

Shit, I'd settle for a good Privateer sequel. Or WC or TIE Fighter or...a good fucking space sim for crissakes. It's been too damned long and I want to explore Barnard's Star!

Wasn't Jeff the team lead for JtL?

February 26, 2007

GS: Tell me, what is Spacetime Studios working on for NCSoft? [The company has signed a deal with NCSoft for an MMO, but almost no information has been released on it.] What can we know?

RG: Well, one thing I can say is that they're in Austin, Texas. And most other companies in Austin, I would say two-thirds or more, are ex-Origin companies. And the founding members of Spacetime, most of their previous work was with games like Star Wars Galaxies for Sony, and most of that group's previous work was on the Wing Commander  team back at Origin.

So it's a team we know the members of very well. We know their skillsets very well. I think they're one of the premier development groups in the world, generally doing things associated with sci-fi and space travel. And those guys are working in the general area of their comfort zone, and embracing the next generation of sci-fi games. So I have really high confidence in the team, but the details of the game are still secret.

GS: Besides that it's sci-fi!

RG: [laughs] And I think we actually haven't made that official before, but that's okay! But yeah, these guys are a really experienced development team. A lot of the principles of their design philosophy they can repeat easily. And they've done some really innovative stuff already.

GS: Let's get a little design-philosophical, if you don't mind, regarding the concept of an MMO in space. What can we do beyond what we've seen historically, beyond running around grass and hitting guys with swords and magic? How do you get beyond those standards and create an experience that is still an MMO, that takes advantage of space and sci-fi?

RG: I think one of the biggest challenges of space-based MMOs, or even something like Auto Assault, which used cars [is that] vehicles of any kind represent a whole other tier of challenge. Because then you have to have not only interact personally, but then you have to also get in a vehicle. And the vehicle presents movements issues, and now different combat issues. And I want to make sure that my personal character comes through in vehicular combat, in a way that seems consistent and relevant with the hand-to-hand game.

It's almost like taking two whole games and marrying them. In fact, I don't know how familiar you are with Ultima, but even then I used to have 2D outdoors, 3D dungeons, and sometimes 3D towns. All these different modes of operation that were really different games, that multiplied the complexity. So that, actually is the biggest challenge, is how to marry them and not either A) double the work, or B) fail on one side or the other, make one of them the one you invest your time and effort into and the other one superfluous.

I think the Spacetime guys are the right people for this challenge, in that this is the same problem they've been facing for twenty years. And I think they have some really outstanding ideas, especially now that the team's unbridled from previous intellectual property that had its own rules. They can create a game purely based on what the gameplay should be, and not based on needing to include components that support a particular IP.

GS: So the space sci-fi MMO that Spacetime is working on is an original IP.

RG: Pretty much everything that NCSoft does is new IP. Which brings me to another interesting story that you might enjoy! Origin was also about new IP, almost never licensed IP, and we think that that's important on a couple of levels. When a new genre or new platform exists, and there's no competition, in my mind there's no reason not to have new IP.

If you're the only cool fantasy role-playing game, people will buy it. And you now become the original IP. And so you've now created a sequelable intellectual property that you own, that you can then resell, you can license…you become the hub of the value.

However, later in the cycle, when you've already got your Ultima and your Might & Magic and you're going to do yet another Ultima game, you need Dungeons & Dragons or Lord of the Rings to separate you from the now hundreds of competitors.

The downside of that is, if you don't own the IP, you can't sequel it, you can't license it, you can't do anything else. So it's a one-shot deal that you can hopefully make some money off of. For example, going to Sony with their experience on, say, Star Wars Galaxies. They'll go, 'Well, it was cool to use it,' but they can't sequel it. And they split the profits, and so I think at that point they start thinking that original IPs are a better idea.

Read the entire interview here.

Could EA have sold the WC rights back to Garriott?

I've met and drank with a number of the people that ended up at Spacetime.

And I mean this in the nicest way.

STOP HIRING MMOG DESIGNERS TO MAKE MMOGS.

THEY FORGOT WHAT FUN WAS ABOUT 8 CORPSE-HUMPINGS BACK.

It's definately a scifi / space themed MMO.

Because you absolutely know what fun is for 99.99 percent of the rest of us? 

Which is why, of course, you run a website talking about games, rather than, um, actually making them.

I have played every MMO there is. And anyone who's been here since launch (f13's launch) knows that. Also, I play new ones. No, i don't talk about it 99% of the time. Also, korean ones and wonky chinese and japanese ones.

Dirty. Curious, what was your all time fav?


(My list is quite large as well)

"The list is long but distiguished"

"Yeah, well, so is my johnson."

If you're posting in this thread, chances are you've played at least 15 MMOs in your time, whether you were a lurker here or part of the small contingent of Lum diaspora folks. And if you're still posting here (outside of the guy who feels the need to even though he hates the genre to date), you still have hope that something else is going to come along and do things "right", for you, and not for the CokeBunnyPenguin generation that's replacing us.

I don't care what this game is called. If it's JTL with a wotking ground-game, it'll be worth a check-out alone. That's not hyping that it'll be Robot Jesus. It's just hyping uniqueness. Outside of Jumpgate, SWG space portions and Vendetta Online, there just aren't really any space-sim MMOs. And way-too-much-time Eve has them all beat as a self-consistent immersive experience, even with it's different flight mechanics.

So we need more. Good or bad, another attempt is worth it.

I imagine it would be at least as twitchy as JtL, and that was a pretty cool subgame. I don't think you need any more 'ground game' than something like Privateer, some stations to walk around in and get missions, interact with other players, and do mercantile type stuff. Maybe some missions based out of a carrier group, you could walk around the carrier too, but that would interfere with the ability to blow it up real nice.

I imagine it would be at least as twitchy as JtL, and that was a pretty cool subgame. I don't think you need any more 'ground game' than something like Privateer, some stations to walk around in and get missions, interact with other players, and do mercantile type stuff. Maybe some missions based out of a carrier group, you could walk around the carrier too, but that would interfere with the ability to blow it up real nice.

Space flight and role-oriented, RPG-style combat? Can it be done? It can indeed and it kicks serious ass. Freeform ship control, ground combat, abilities, and weapon fire?

See, you assume I hate the genre. No, I don't hate the genre. It's the most promising and interesting genre in gaming. It just happens that, somehow, the designers in the field feel the need to shit where they work.

That's not my fault.

Yeah, there's definitely a possibility of this going wrong, especially with 'established' devs. You start jamming diku classes into Wing Commander and things will get ugly.

Some roles make sense. Tank, your big heavy fighter. DPS, your agile missile ship. Thief, your stealth fighter. Of course, why even address them in the traditional terms when the groundwork was laid ten years ago anyway?

Now I want to go play a good space flight sim, dammit.

Imo, ground game would ruin it. Too difficult to do both, you're basically making two entire games on one budget. Dunno how they managed it with JtL, but even that needed more fleshing out. Now...if you made it so this new space flight mmo dovetailed into the tabula rasa ground game...maybe. But I still think it's a bad idea to try anything beyond space stations.

Are you saying it might be cool to drop bombs from orbit on Tabula Rasa?

Are you saying it might be cool to drop bombs from orbit on Tabula Rasa?

Snakecharmer: I'd rather avoid the non-ship fighting aspect alltogether, I think. Too difficult to do correctly.

They've stated that they were doing an original IP,

Would be fun to be one of the troops on the Homeworld 2 Marine Frigate.  Actually be able to fight through the enemy ship, and take it over, under a time constraint.  If you fail, or they blow up the Marine Frigate you disembarked off, good luck hiding on the enemy ship.  Maybe a cyanide tooth, or a personal use satchel charge.

I think Serek Dmart has a game like that.

Yeah, there's definitely a possibility of this going wrong, especially with 'established' devs. You start jamming diku classes into Wing Commander and things will get ugly.

Some roles make sense. Tank, your big heavy fighter. DPS, your agile missile ship. Thief, your stealth fighter. Of course, why even address them in the traditional terms when the groundwork was laid ten years ago anyway?

Now I want to go play a good space flight sim, dammit.

Imo, ground game would ruin it. Too difficult to do both, you're basically making two entire games on one budget. Dunno how they managed it with JtL, but even that needed more fleshing out. Now...if you made it so this new space flight mmo dovetailed into the tabula rasa ground game...maybe. But I still think it's a bad idea to try anything beyond space stations.

I think Serek Dmart has a game like that.

Which of the unfinished ones are you referring to?

I tried playing one version of his game and my mind ran screaming from my body at the sheer insanity of it. To say it sucked would be insulting to things which suck.

The publishers released the games before they were done. It wasn't his fault!

Derek?



I miss you.

Could someone please just make Star Fleet Command as the space bits (with a strategy / resource component) and Alien v Predator in the ship corridors / ground game for the ground pounders to deal with?

Freespace 2 MMO. Go!

I'm not asking for thousands of ships in realtime twitch battles. Just limit it to the same amount any modern encounter zone supports, just a few dozen, with dynamic zone lines and shit.

I'm beginning to think that IP is likely over costly and limiting in what it either allows MMOs to do or allows fans to accept.

The only thing putting me off of Eve is how boring point and click is; I need to juke, jive, and strafe in my space sims.

On a side note, my other big gripe is that they followed the same route as shadowbane in that system/stations controlled by corporations could only be visited by members, on pain of death.  I want somebody to make one of these empire building MMO's were there is a free flow of people between empires.  IE, I'm not a member, but my small corp (or just you for that matter) can set up shop in that empire to do my own thing (maybe have an open citizenship that means you also pay annual taxes).  The ruling corp sets all the tax rates and laws, manages the economy, and fights against the other ruling corps with there standing army (heh, and maybe you could force draft citizens of the empire in times of war (like, turn the pvp flag on between them and the opponent) as a side price for citizenship).  It gives it a multilevel approach to governing and economy like the real world.  Actually making your empire a friendly place for small corps to do business, resulting in higher tax revenue and potential talent recruitment.  I always felt really restricted not being able to go see other peoples cities in Shadowbane, so it would also help for explorers.

You can do all of this in EVE, it's just that people have figured out that giving random people free access into your territory & facilities is (eventually) identical to giving your enemies free access into your territory & facilities.

That's half of my "if I had the money" MMG right there.

EVE + FreeSpace 2 + Armored Core / AvP = will never get funded

Doesn't anyone have a trust-fund buddy they could beg $2mil from?  :wink:

You can do all of this in EVE, it's just that people have figured out that giving random people free access into your territory & facilities is (eventually) identical to giving your enemies free access into your territory & facilities.

EVE has two basic 0.0 methodologies:
* Not Blue, Shoot It (NBSI) - If it's not an alliance member or an ally, kill it.
* Not Red, Don't Shoot (NRDS) - If it's not a declared enemy, leave it alone.

There are very, very few NRDS alliances in game because, in the long run, it just doesn't work. It's partially the tragedy of the commons, but mostly that NRDS leaves you wide open, from a security point of view.

OTOH, if your corp/alliance is willing to negotiate with a NBSI alliance, positive faction standings can be set and you're good to go (with the caveat that whoever owns the space now knows who you are, where you're flying out of, and that you have to be on best behavior otherwise they'll just revoke the standings and leave you trapping in the middle of suddenly hostile space).

EVE is not casual friendly. It's what makes it work for those who play it.

I do think there is a place for a space MMOG similar to Eve, but without the complete lawlessness of 0.0 non-empire, and a bit more robust PvE system. (My dream space MMOG has a game like Galactic Civilizations running in the "background" setting up trade routes and events for the players to experience.)

I've wondered if PvE "warfare by proxy" might be workable. Picture an MMG with several NPC empires. Systems on the border between two (or more) are active warfare zones. You can support your side actively by destroying Empire A's warships, weakening their power in the system. You can support your side passively by delivering resources and crafted equpiment to Empire B's stations, allowing them to respawn destroyed warships.

What would be the reward for the players getting involved in this proxy activity?  Cinematics of the win moment, when the NPC's of A obliterate the NPC's of B?  Cinematics of the immediate effect of each boost, seeing the delivered equipment reach its destination?  Watching as the enemy players destroy your NPC's?

Either it's full-on PVP, or the player can't participate directly in the "fun" - the actual war.

Weren't they going to do something like this in EVE?

And making it more Carebear friendly would "ruin" Eve, but I do think there is a place for a space MMOG similar to Eve, but without the complete lawlessness of 0.0 non-empire, and a bit more robust PvE system. (My dream space MMOG has a game like Galactic Civilizations running in the "background" setting up trade routes and events for the players to experience.)

I think the thing that bites for some people is that Eve is a great game to read about, but only a small section of the player base get to experience the really good world-building stuff.

Err, that's more or less what I'm talking about, sorry if I wasn't clear.  I'm not saying they should do any of this to Eve itself, since its not built for it, but make a game from the ground up built around it.

It would basically mean not having unrestricted PvP though (which is fine by me) since that's the root cause of the problem I stated.  I'd like to see a game where empires declare war on each other, which flags each side to kill each other (and anybody else that happens to be in each sides territory) until peace is settled in some way, and territory/fees are seized.  Would give alot more meaning and structure to war.  Its just something I would like to see somebody try.

I don't know about that: the casual players must love a game where they can level up while offline.

I truly don't have the time to be the level of immersed I'd need to be to like Eve.

Ha! That rare loot just bit reminded me of another thing I absolutely despired about Eve -- adding new guns and stuff didn't actually change my ship model.  If i just spent an assload of cash on a new missile launcher/rail gun/whatever, I want to be able to see it damnit, not just get a .04% damg increase.

Brandon Reinhart - Was GreenMarine from SWG.

Not to pull the thread back on topic or anything, but here's a new interview with more information on our combat and IP (http://www.tentonhammer.com/node/14951).

Dog-fighting with real-time weapons is the cornerstone of our combat experience – and it is balanced with a suite of character-defining abilities (similar to what you might expect from your favorite online RPG). There is no ‘auto-attack.’ Instead, we have a really innovative navigation system that has yielded a cool mixture of raw player skill and strategic abilities

We prototyped for a year and have been in pre-production for about a year.

Thanks for noting the interview Lietgardis.


JTL without the ground game issues would be awesome. 

Can't help but remember what happens to MMO performance when 100+ players pile up in one place to resolve the differences with guns and all. Real-time twitch weapons in that environment.... right.

Can't help but remember what happens to MMO performance when 100+ players pile up in one place to resolve the differences with guns and all. Real-time twitch weapons in that environment.... right.

You're assuming there'd be combat with 100+ players simultaneously in an environment (I don't recall any time any single JTL zone had 100+ players in it simultaneously... I imagine we'd have heard about it, at least from Gutboy ;) ). Very few games actually have that, and there's only one that has a semi-twitch type feel to it (PS).

Glory. It just hasn't happened yet...except in Planetside.

Not even there, really.  Get 100 players together in Planetside and people start skipping around outside of your crosshair because of update latency.  It's one of the main reasons Planetside hasn't kept a lot of players.

subspace/whateveritscallednow did fine.

I was going to mention subspace but I was never part of anything close to 100 players on one map.

Don't a most of the newer FPS's support 64 on a side pretty well?

No, Planetside supports 133 (Started higher) per side (x3) in one continent, including all actions (Twitch Not RPG ) and Explosions ETC.... But thats a discussion for another thread..and i think we have one. I have been in many "more than 100"+ in an SOI base. Granted, some updates has made this less possible for all but the really MONSTROUSmachines, even by todays standards.

I'd except space zones with 32 x 32, or 64 x 64 with large and small ships. It's how I got there and why which makes it massive. Not the number of people.

Yeah, I don't see a problem with dropping into an instance for 64x64 (or 32x32x32x32??? Or, some combination thereof) action.

Planetside did the best out of all of them, even with more than 100 players in the same SOI. Eve can handle a 100 man fight, though sluggishly. Wow craps out at about 80-100. Shadowbane would die with 50. Im trying to think of any other massive battles I have been a part of...not remembering any.

I was always partial to breaking down combat groups by effectiveness rather than pure numbers.  I'd rather see something similar to Battletech's tonnage system.  1 larger ship may be worth some number of smaller ships so you keep the sides balanced that way.

One side may bring in 64 fighters and the other side brings in a Battle Cruiser, 2 destroyers and 20 fighters or something.

Well, this sucks. (http://www.spacetimestudios.com/)  Project on hold, dropped by publisher (NCSoft), 12 people let go.

Hey, RG had to pay for that space trip somehow :shrug:

Hope they find a publisher....

Well, this sucks. (http://www.spacetimestudios.com/)  Project on hold, dropped by publisher (NCSoft), 12 people let go.

Hey, RG had to pay for that space trip somehow :shrug:

Hope they find a publisher....

Well, this sucks. (http://www.spacetimestudios.com/)  Project on hold, dropped by publisher (NCSoft), 12 people let go.

Hey, RG had to pay for that space trip somehow :shrug:

Hope they find a publisher....

If NCsoft dropped it, who'd pick it up?

Down, but not out? (http://www.spacetimestudios.com/)  Viral selfmade marketing in hopes of catching the eye of another publisher or VC angel?

Good, can't wait to hear more: I really hope the "ground game" is quite solid as well (where ever it's going to take place, on space stations/outposts or actual planets).

Fly your spaceship to exotic locations, blasting through cunning enemies and dreadful space creatures.

Fight your character avatar on mysterious planets, go aboard space stations, and force your way onto enemy ships.

Live as one of four races, ranging from heroic humans to killer robots to savage monsters to beautiful aliens in an epic science-fiction universe.

They just announced the game is/was? called Blackstar (http://www.spacetimestudios.com/games.html)
Nothing much to show yet, but they say they are trying to get everything more presentable, so they'd probably have more to show soon enough.

Combine spell-casting with real time shooting as you blast through enemies, collect loot, and gain levels in a variety of unique alien environments.

Announcing the game after you lose funding is a fascinating way to gain exposure.

...undead horrors in an epic science-fantasy universe where advanced technology clashes with ancient demonic power.

On a very high level, this sounds like Peter F. Hamilton's Night's Dawn Trilogy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Night's_Dawn_Trilogy). Which would be an awesome universe to set a game in.

They've updated their site (http://www.spacetimestudios.com/) again, with new info and included comment areas.  Good stuff, me thinks.  Now just standing by to see if they pull it off.

Yummy Yummy? (brief low resolution gameplay video of Blackstar) :

http://www.spacetimestudios.com/2008/02/18/spacetime-studios-is-at-gdc/ (http://www.spacetimestudios.com/2008/02/18/spacetime-studios-is-at-gdc/)

Dam it, where is that hosted? Its blocked by my work. Any other sources? (Basically i cant see any "Streaming sites" or youtube or the like).

Erm.

Hrm.

Looks very anime-ish?

Why did the original iteration of Blackstar end up having its development cancelled by NCSoft?

All I can say is that is that NCSoft's portfolio strategy changed. They were a great publisher to work with, and everything ended on good terms, it was just business.

We would work with them again at any point in time. The specifics of why they cancelled the project really are because their portfolio strategy change. But we like them a lot.

I hope this works out.  I like a lot of the devs working on this.

If anyone from Spacetime is reading this, the plural of "nebula" is "nebulae," not "nebulas" (The Twisting Void).