Spacetime Studios announces: Blackstar

[Slayerik]

Yeah, what blood said.

Get me in closed beta down the road, I never get picked :)

[Venkman]

Thanks for noting the interview Lietgardis.

Dog-fighting with real-time weapons is the cornerstone of our combat experience – and it is balanced with a suite of character-defining abilities (similar to what you might expect from your favorite online RPG). There is no ‘auto-attack.’ Instead, we have a really innovative navigation system that has yielded a cool mixture of raw player skill and strategic abilities

JTL without the ground game issues would be awesome. Alone. I'm loving on Freespace 2 open source right now and would really like a space-based game with space sim controls.

I'm sure you don't want to tell us when this'll launch, but can you at least tell us when you'll be throwing up some screenshots from within the game? Looks like you're staffing up to begin all that stuff now, but I'm interested in the navigation system you mentioned, in addition to the pretty  

[SnakeCharmer]

As much as I'm trying not to go all fanboi here, goddamn that's a good sales pitch.

Lots of pew pew pew and less , please.

[WayAbvPar]

Ok, that sounds like fun. Now make it BE fun! 

[Wolf]

We prototyped for a year and have been in pre-production for about a year.

That means at least two years before beta, right?

[tmp]

Thanks for noting the interview Lietgardis.

Dog-fighting with real-time weapons is the cornerstone of our combat experience – and it is balanced with a suite of character-defining abilities (similar to what you might expect from your favorite online RPG). There is no ‘auto-attack.’ Instead, we have a really innovative navigation system that has yielded a cool mixture of raw player skill and strategic abilities

JTL without the ground game issues would be awesome. 

Can't help but remember what happens to MMO performance when 100+ players pile up in one place to resolve the differences with guns and all. Real-time twitch weapons in that environment.... right.

[Mrbloodworth]

Thanks for noting the interview Lietgardis.

Dog-fighting with real-time weapons is the cornerstone of our combat experience – and it is balanced with a suite of character-defining abilities (similar to what you might expect from your favorite online RPG). There is no ‘auto-attack.’ Instead, we have a really innovative navigation system that has yielded a cool mixture of raw player skill and strategic abilities

JTL without the ground game issues would be awesome. 

Can't help but remember what happens to MMO performance when 100+ players pile up in one place to resolve the differences with guns and all. Real-time twitch weapons in that environment.... right.

Glory. It just hasn't happened yet...except in Planetside.

[Venkman]

Thanks for noting the interview Lietgardis.

Dog-fighting with real-time weapons is the cornerstone of our combat experience – and it is balanced with a suite of character-defining abilities (similar to what you might expect from your favorite online RPG). There is no ‘auto-attack.’ Instead, we have a really innovative navigation system that has yielded a cool mixture of raw player skill and strategic abilities

JTL without the ground game issues would be awesome. 

Can't help but remember what happens to MMO performance when 100+ players pile up in one place to resolve the differences with guns and all. Real-time twitch weapons in that environment.... right.

You're assuming there'd be combat with 100+ players simultaneously in an environment (I don't recall any time any single JTL zone had 100+ players in it simultaneously... I imagine we'd have heard about it, at least from Gutboy ;) ). Very few games actually have that, and there's only one that has a semi-twitch type feel to it (PS).

As usual, we need much more detail. JTL was great.

[tmp]

You're assuming there'd be combat with 100+ players simultaneously in an environment (I don't recall any time any single JTL zone had 100+ players in it simultaneously... I imagine we'd have heard about it, at least from Gutboy ;) ). Very few games actually have that, and there's only one that has a semi-twitch type feel to it (PS).

Yup it's a presumption of course but i think it's quite reasonable given the genre (not many pure space MMO out there, so if game is good you may wind up with greater 'population density' so to speak) ... plus overall increase in popularity of MMO / playerbase size. I mean heck, even in LotRO where PvP is an afterthought it's pretty normal to get 50-75 people duking it out in one place daily, quite frequently more (and ftr the game copes with it pretty admirably but it does use the autoattack approach)

At the high end of what nerds in space in PvP game can lead to is obviously EvE with its few hundred people pile ups, but then it's quite special case. Still it shows the potential is there and if you let them, they might come in numbers that'll send you under desk to weep in frustration.

[geldonyetich2]

Can't help but remember what happens to MMO performance when 100+ players pile up in one place to resolve the differences with guns and all. Real-time twitch weapons in that environment.... right.

Glory. It just hasn't happened yet...except in Planetside.

Not even there, really.  Get 100 players together in Planetside and people start skipping around outside of your crosshair because of update latency.  It's one of the main reasons Planetside hasn't kept a lot of players.

[Slayerik]

Name any game, past or present, that has been able to effectively field 100+ players in one area with combat without really bad issues.

Planetside did the best out of all of them, even with more than 100 players in the same SOI. Eve can handle a 100 man fight, though sluggishly. Wow craps out at about 80-100. Shadowbane would die with 50. Im trying to think of any other massive battles I have been a part of...not remembering any.

[bhodi]

subspace/whateveritscallednow did fine.

[Mrbloodworth]

Can't help but remember what happens to MMO performance when 100+ players pile up in one place to resolve the differences with guns and all. Real-time twitch weapons in that environment.... right.

Glory. It just hasn't happened yet...except in Planetside.

Not even there, really.  Get 100 players together in Planetside and people start skipping around outside of your crosshair because of update latency.  It's one of the main reasons Planetside hasn't kept a lot of players.

No, Planetside supports 133 (Started higher) per side (x3) in one continent, including all actions (Twitch Not RPG ) and Explosions ETC.... But thats a discussion for another thread..and i think we have one. I have been in many "more than 100"+ in an SOI base. Granted, some updates has made this less possible for all but the really MONSTROUSmachines, even by todays standards.

Being able to support more than 100+ players (More than any other FPS, lat alone MMOFPS) is not one of planet sides flaws. Besides, PS has more than JUST ground troops.

In fact at the last fanfare, they raisedthe cap for one cont, to 1k. While, not the most efficient..thats an ass tone of people ,and it did slow the server down, and some where ins a slideshow, but it did not crash.

[Slayerik]

subspace/whateveritscallednow did fine.

I was going to mention subspace but I was never part of anything close to 100 players on one map.

[Murgos]

subspace/whateveritscallednow did fine.

I was going to mention subspace but I was never part of anything close to 100 players on one map.

Don't a most of the newer FPS's support 64 on a side pretty well?

[Mrbloodworth]

subspace/whateveritscallednow did fine.

I was going to mention subspace but I was never part of anything close to 100 players on one map.

Don't a most of the newer FPS's support 64 on a side pretty well?

The two most common is 32 and 64, but it depends on the game.

[Venkman]

The reason I asked about the 100+ presumption is because I don't think there's an assumption out there that a battle must support that, space or ground. Sure, it sounds "massive" to advertise this as a feature. But speak to anyone who's ever tried to coordinate this sorta thing at that sorta scale in an anonymous virtual environment for just how fun (read: not) that is.

I'd except space zones with 32 x 32, or 64 x 64 with large and small ships. It's how I got there and why which makes it massive. Not the number of people.

[geldonyetich2]

No, Planetside supports 133 (Started higher) per side (x3) in one continent, including all actions (Twitch Not RPG ) and Explosions ETC.... But thats a discussion for another thread..and i think we have one. I have been in many "more than 100"+ in an SOI base. Granted, some updates has made this less possible for all but the really MONSTROUSmachines, even by todays standards.

As have I.  But eventually I came to realize that there were certain latency problems that manifested when you had enough players in close proximity that made the game quite frustrating.

The main trouble is strafing: Shifting from left to right movement is instant on the client side, and when your ping has been sufficiently elevated it causes players to warp.  At close range, this is extremely noticeable, and many Planetside players have learned to exploit this.  Granted, it was much worse when surge didn't put your weapon away.

Another place you might notice it is if you're trying to snipe people on the battlements of bases with many players in the SOI.  If they're moving, at all, they'll jitter around so much it's extremely hard to shoot them.

[Murgos]

I'd except space zones with 32 x 32, or 64 x 64 with large and small ships. It's how I got there and why which makes it massive. Not the number of people.

Yeah, I don't see a problem with dropping into an instance for 64x64 (or 32x32x32x32??? Or, some combination thereof) action.  My experience with Battlefield 2142 was that 50+ players in a moderately large zone was PLENTY for nonstop mayhem.

I was always partial to breaking down combat groups by effectiveness rather than pure numbers.  I'd rather see something similar to Battletech's tonnage system.  1 larger ship may be worth some number of smaller ships so you keep the sides balanced that way.

One side may bring in 64 fighters and the other side brings in a Battle Cruiser, 2 destroyers and 20 fighters or something.

[tmp]

Yeah, I don't see a problem with dropping into an instance for 64x64 (or 32x32x32x32??? Or, some combination thereof) action.

Apparently the problems arise when half of players in the instance can't be arsed to actually play but still take space of these who could. Vide WoW battlegrounds from what i hear... but then it's probably up to setting correctly game incentives and penalties, to curb that.

Also, main thing i was thinking of re: lag was not overall number of players in the zone but situations where people pile up in single spot fighting over it or simply with one another. There's can be vast difference in number of updates that need to be sent out when you have 64 players but each only happens to see 1-2 others at the moment, and the same 64 players with everyone in visual range. It's the latter that gets me sceptical about viability of it... but guess we'll see. Or not.

[Comstar]

Planetside did the best out of all of them, even with more than 100 players in the same SOI. Eve can handle a 100 man fight, though sluggishly. Wow craps out at about 80-100. Shadowbane would die with 50. Im trying to think of any other massive battles I have been a part of...not remembering any.

WW2OL (now called Battlefield Europe) can and does do this. Granted it's not internet spaceships where everyone can see everyone for 100kms (as most of the people in that 200+ are on the ground and only need to know about things within 1-3 kilometres, and unlike Eve, terrian matters and tends to block your view on the ground anyway). You can see this in the videos for the Battle of Roemond 2 maps ago here at part 1 and here at part 2, though it also shows the problems WW2OL in doing it. Part 2 is much more interesting because it has KFS1 (WW2OL network dev) doing a commentary to explain what you're looking at (part 1 just as text every now and then).   

[stu]

I was always partial to breaking down combat groups by effectiveness rather than pure numbers.  I'd rather see something similar to Battletech's tonnage system.  1 larger ship may be worth some number of smaller ships so you keep the sides balanced that way.

One side may bring in 64 fighters and the other side brings in a Battle Cruiser, 2 destroyers and 20 fighters or something.

Hell, yeah. I could go for that.

[geldonyetich2]

It's basically instanced combat, but it makes sense on a technical standpoint.  The trick is making it transparent enough that players won't assert it's not truly massively multiplayer.

[SnakeCharmer]

Well, this sucks.  Project on hold, dropped by publisher (NCSoft), 12 people let go.

Hey, RG had to pay for that space trip somehow :shrug:

Hope they find a publisher....

[Evildrider]

Meh...

They need a Freelancer MMO 

[Lucas]

SHIT. :(

This MMO was REALLY at the top of my list, being a Wing Commander fanatic and seeing all those ex-WC employees (like Chris Douglas and others) aboard.

This damnit sucks...Guess I'll (we?) never learn.

[WayAbvPar]

Well, this sucks.  Project on hold, dropped by publisher (NCSoft), 12 people let go.

Hey, RG had to pay for that space trip somehow :shrug:

Hope they find a publisher....

Let's hope that is not what Lum was designing 

[SnakeCharmer]

I don't think it was.  He's never been mentioned over at the Spacetime Studios site.

Spacetime is Brandon Reinhart, Gary Gattis, Cinco Barnes, Jeff Freeman, Sara Jensen Schubert, and a few other people of note.

[UnSub]

Well, this sucks.  Project on hold, dropped by publisher (NCSoft), 12 people let go.

Hey, RG had to pay for that space trip somehow :shrug:

Hope they find a publisher....

I wonder if it has anything to do with Robert Garriott (not Richard, who went into space) moving on to a different role within NCsoft and being replaced by Chris Chung? I figure it would have been Chung's call to drop the Spacetime project.

Interesting that the agreement only lasted 9 months about 20 months between Spacetime and NCsoft.

[Venkman]

Wow, yea, that sucks. At least it wasn't G&H-cancelled though. Having to let go 12 people in January bites almost as bad as downsizing in December, but at least it's Austin and not middle-of-nowhere-for-developers USA.

[Lantyssa]

Dammit.

Good luck to any of you affected by this.

 

[Lucas]

Yeah, well, anyways I think it is worth noting that, like it's written on the Studios' homepage, the project still is a strong reality, at least for those involved. Let's hope some other publisher pick it up:
--------

We know it's not the norm but at Spacetime Studios we've always been about communicating when we can. For two years this has been in good times but we want to put out a message to the community before the rumors start.

Our project has been cancelled by the current publisher. Yeah it sucks, and we don’t believe anyone who says otherwise at a time like this.  Regardless of how you look at it, we won’t be entering production in the immediate future, so we are retrenching and unfortunately had to let 12 folks go. There are always wild rumors at a time like this so we wanted to be as specific as possible to the number and circumstance. All 12 employees released were given extended benefits, severance and will be supplied letters of recommendation. These were good folks and we are not happy about it. We’ll do anything we can to help them land somewhere else. If you are a developer and are looking for good folks, drop us a line at jobs@spacetimestudios.com.

The cancelled game was our primary project and we have a complete MMO engine w/ networking infrastructure, tools suite, and next-gen rendering engine. The company remains extremely committed to the IP and once all mutual obligations have been completed between the publisher and ourselves we intend to explore every possible avenue to see that our team’s collective vision come to fruition.

We want to stress that there are no bad feelings with NCSoft. There is a tremendous amount of mutual respect between our companies.  They have conducted themselves with honor and integrity, and we would work with them again in an instant.

We are still here, stable and strong, and running a little bit lighter while we figure out our next move. What does not kill us makes us stronger said the philosopher Friedrich Wilhelm Nietzsche. That may be true, but it isn’t pleasant. Wish us luck and good fortune.
--------

The part regarding NCsoft is quite interesting: when those kinds of "splits" happen, yes, there are a few lines dropped, but the words above are more than just that. Maybe this happened because of a whole financial re-evaluation of NCsoft Korea (and, by consequence, o f NCsoft U.S.) in the mid-long term and its current portfolio, not really because of the inherent quality of the project, or other misunderstanding between the firm and STS.

So...Any particular publisher in mind?   

[Mrbloodworth]

Well, this sucks.  Project on hold, dropped by publisher (NCSoft), 12 people let go.

Hey, RG had to pay for that space trip somehow :shrug:

Hope they find a publisher....

God dam it.

Well, Jumpgate:E just went up a notch.

[JoeTF]

Hahahahaha, I was reading interview on page three and just pitched it to a friend. He now likes the game sooo, sooo much.
It's going to be shortest mmo-crush in history

[UnSub]

If NCsoft dropped it, who'd pick it up?

SOE, who already have space combat in SWG and are a little gunshy about third party MMO development since Vangard?

Activendi, who already have Blizzard and the cash rolling in?

EA, who might feel the need to compete with Activendi, or at least crush another promising MMO?

Another publisher who wants to get into the MMO arena?