f13.net

Didn't see this posted anywhere, got the info from xbox.com.
 
I want this game more than Halo3, maybe even more than world peace.

Whoa.

How the hell does one get hyped about this title so much after the last 5 Bioware titles?

I'm hoping it's 10% as good as their BIS collaborative stuff.

Because they were all good?

Now go back to your Garry's Mod.

No, they were all mediocre in a sea of western RPG trash.

Which, ironically, this will be as well. Hasn't been a good western RPG since... well, let's be honest, BIS was around.

Do we really want to get into this?  I'd just as soon not attack you for your deviant, perverted Japanophilia, but hey, I will if need be.

Your move, sucka.

Go on, make a list.

By the way, it was your move when I dropped the BIS name.

So, KOTOR sucked?

You're motherfucking right it did.

The graphics were dick.
A Good story couldn't be wrapped in a Star Wars shell if fucking Orson Welles himself penned the motherfucker.
The endings were both complete and utter failures.
The dark/light side was based in a world of bullshit.
Even the sound ranged from questionable to crap.

BIS pooped better games than this.

Other than Lionheart.

Come on, we all know shcild hates fun.

Japanese Panty Rippers on the other hand....

Jade Empire
Elder Scrolls: Oblivion
KOTOR
KOTOR II (okay, they screwed the pooch with the ending, otherwise, better than the previous game)
Arx Fatalis
Vampire: Bloodlines
Deus Ex
Gothic
Gothic II

And just to preemptively counter whatever argument you may have, I give you exhibits A and B:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v490/spaeschke/vaan.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v490/spaeschke/final_fantasy_x3_001.jpg)



You can turn in your man card any time you'd like.

I've give you Jade Empire as a let down and possibly Neverwinter Nights since it took 2 expansions to make it decent.  That's all I'll give you.   KOTOR and both BGs?  No sorry, good games no matter what YOU think of them.

That opens the door for Mass Effect to be disappointing, especially if the combat is ultimately unsatisfying as it was with Jade Empire.  Either way, it'll be worth a purchase and a play through, just like Jade Empire was even with all of its faults.

Are any of their games comparative with either Fallout or Planescape?  BG2, possibly.  But this isn't about BIS v Bioware, don't change the goddamn argument to one you know you can win. 

Edit: Why do I feel a daywalker for being able to appreciate both Japanese and Western RPGs?  :-P

Don't really agree with everything, but I'd add ToEE to that list if you are a DnD fan :)

 :roll:

Huh? BIS helped with the Baldur's Gates games if not did more than most of the work.

As for Deus Ex, I'll obviously give you that. That said, I had my dates reversed when I typed that, thought Planescape was 2000 and Deus Ex was 1999. Whoops.


You have ONE game on this list on par with BIS titles.

It's called Vampire. The rest doesn't even remotely compare.

Rasix, my point is Bioware has proven they are f'ing useless without BIS. Why would I change the subject? The quality of the games before BIS folding compared to what Bioware did afterwards couldn't be more glaringly different. I mean, comeon, Baldur's Gate era vs the rest of that shit?

Also, way to use square titles as representative of the japanese industry, Gulp. Swing and a miss.
 

I can appreciate both. When they don't suck. For every shitty western RPG, there are 10 shitty JRPGs. But I'm done giving western devs the benefit of the doubt. It's not 2000 and they have an absolutely shitty track record for the better part of the decade.

You mean Japanese RPG's aren't all filled with effeminate man-boys, nonsensical quasi-mystical/religious bullshit, and teenage angst?  I call bullshit.  I think I've summed up the situation pretty well.

And Western RPGs have nearly no style, are fucking CHOCK FULL of bullshit lore and relgious trash, and have adults written like teenagers with the same sort of angst but with a better grasp of english. There's a reason Deus Ex and Planescape and Vampire stand out among the crowd.

By the way -

Effeminate man-boys, nonsensical quasi-mystical/religious bullshit and teenage angst is the fucking definition of everything associated with Star Wars.

I never understood the problem with effeminate man-boys.  Most of the man-boys I know are effeminate.  It's why I like them.  Also, you lot have no room to complain.  Do you how long us women have had to play games with no female option at all?  Fucking hell!  We're STILL playing them!

Sometimes I just have to growl.

All we need now is Schild slagging Linux and we will have a forum-crashing Nerd-Rage Trifecta all in this handy little thread.

Bah.  Linux.  Stupid Unix emulator.

Isnt this about as manly as they get?

(http://p-images.veoh.com/image.out?imageId=user-XvSephirothvX12.jpg&version=4)

That transvestite looks awfully angry.

Is this entire thread really just Schild bashing Mass Effect for no real reason?

Nope, just wanted to kill the hype train for a way overhyped game. It's not something worth frothing about, imo.

No such thing as too much frothing. Much like I bought my PS2 for GTA, I bought my 360 for Mass Effect. Bioware is one of the few remaining companies that seems to remember that plot and story are a vital ingredient in an RPG.

I won't argue with you on specifics - I loved NWN HotU, KotoR, and Jade Empire. Mass Effect could be poop in a box and I'll still be enough of a fanboi to love it.

You want to convince me that JRPGs are worth while, go right ahead. No need to make it an us vs them.

Point me at a JRPG with the following, and I'll play it and give you an honest opinion:

 - At least some degree of character creation/design (Don't make me play as Tidus the Wonderdouch)
 - A combat system that is not FFish (ugh)
 - A decent story, preferably not too linear, with some choice to my character's actions
 - Half decent graphics (ideally where I don't appear to be 6 years old)

Mass Effects lets you
-Fully customize your character, your teammates, your equipment and vehicles
-Lets you explore a brand new galaxy along the main storyline or off the beaten track
-Incredible new graphics and a new way to interact in dialog, facial expressions, etc.
-Real time combat or you can pause the action to order your teammates more tactically

Japanese RPG's lets you
Pretend you're a 10 year old hemaphrodite swinging a blade longer than a tractor-trailer

As an avid RPG'er why in god's name would I NOT be in a froth for ME?  American RPG's kick Jap RPG's asses when it come to storylines as well. I'm gonna get in the Normandy, pick a star system and just start exploring.  How many Jap games allow you that freedom?

Mass Effect advances RPG's as well, I don't see too many Jap games expanding the genre, just more and more FF knock offs.

(the term Jap not meant as an insult)
 

I'm not going to argue about freedom. At least not in world-sense.

But there's not a single Western RPG that allows you as much character freedom as any of the Disgaea games and there has not been a western RPG with a storyline that touched them (1 or 2, or makai kingdom, or soul nomad) since the Planescape/Deus Ex golden days.

I'm sorry you can't deal with the art. But pigeonholing a game because of it, well, it makes you look like a gibbering moron.

See, the thing is, I play AND ENJOY western RPGs and JRPGs. I'm just not going to froth for something from a company that hasn't delivered in the past half-decade. And they're only further proving that by hiring Shadowbane 2.0 as their MMOG dev team. Surely I'd LOVE to be proven otherwise, but it's just not likely. I'll play Mass Effect like the rest of you, but I don't have that much of a hardon for running around space. I highly doubt they're going to do it better than Rogue Galaxy. Sure, tehre might be more planet-hopping, but I expect a far less lively world and more OMG THERE'S WAR HERE TOO.

I also enjoy both sorts of rpgs.  I probably like Japanese rpgs better, though.  I do wish they allowed more customisation, however.  I'd love to be able to customise the look of my 10 year old hermaphrodite character.  Righ is looking forward to Mass Effect, however, and having enjoyed KOTOR is probably the reason why.  Anyway, that's not really what I want to say.  What I REALLY want to say is that it takes longer to type "(the term Jap not meant as an insult)" than it does "Japanese."  THAT'S what I REALLY wanted to say!  (http://smiley.onegreatguy.net/bunny.gif)
 

What can I say I work for the government.  :-D

 

Some Japanese RPGs could really be improved just by changing the art style. Not that it ever kept me from playing a game, but I enjoy seeing my effeminate manboy main characters dying during the game more than I probably should.

And Mass Effect doesn't have to give me a blowjob and be the best game ever. It has to be finished when it comes out and it will already have exceeded my expectations for modern role playing games.

Is that true?  I was kind of feeling "meh" on Mass Effect because it looked (from the early videos I'd seen) like there was fairly little customization, at least for the main character.  Gender, already chosen.  Name, already chosen (this really bugged me).  Job, already chosen.  Background, already chosen.  It looked like the main character was less customizable than JC in Deus Ex, to me.  Has that changed since whatever I saw last, or was I misinterpreting something?

I don't understand your love for BIS.  They don't deserve credit for much of anything at all regarding BG.  They tried to copy it with the IWD stuff but basically could only do a passable effort.   The BG console games were trash as well of course.

I'm not really sure I agree with giving Black Isle credit for Fallout either.  The game was in development for many years prior to the formation of the Black Isle studio.  If I recall correctly Black Isle wasn't even named till a year after Fallouts release.   Tim Cain, Leonard Boyarsky and Jason D. Anderson left after laying the foundation for Fallout 2, to form Trokia.

Planescape was made by mixing fallout stuff with infinity engine stuff but was obviously very good and thus the only reason why I won't say BIS was purely riding on other peoples coat tails.

More on topic Kotor is a masterpiece.   It pretty much nailed what it was supposed to do in every way possible.  It's amazing a game that was designed for a crappy console managed to be such a good and proper RPG.

Jade Empire had some bad mistakes that worry me but it clearly was good in the area's Bioware is strong at.   Bioware has not ever worked on creating certain RPG mechanics since they always used the dnd stuff.   Thus some mistakes had to be expected.   Mass Effect is really Biowares chance to prove that those mistakes were learning errors instead of a lack of ability.  If it's mediocre for the same reasons Jade Empire was then I'll firmly agree further Bioware games won't deserve much anticipation.

Yeah I'll have a tarnished opinion of Mass Effect if they are still using d20 shit.

From Wiki:
Commander Shepard is the fictional hero (or heroine) in the Mass Effect series of video games created by BioWare. Shepard's gender, physical characteristics, and first name are determined by the player, and in effect becomes the player's "alter ego". [1] Bioware also provides a default character model that the player is free to use instead of creating their own.

Basically everything is customizable about the main character from what I learned perusing for 1 minute.  I would guess his storyline job of "guy/gal who saves our bacon" is probably set in stone but I don't think the profession/class/whatever is predetermined.

BIS did do Planescape themselves but otherwise I would agree with you. All the key people (lead designers, lead story writers, lead programmers, etc.) on BG and BG II were/are Bioware people. The role BIS had with the Bioware stuff was as a publisher and not as "co-developer".

And yet, I've hated nearly everything that came out of Bioware since BIS folded. I really don't think it's coincidence.

I guess I didn't spell that out but if you look I was basically saying Planescape is BIS's saving grace.  I don't like the changes they made to the engine but one can't deny they had some magic to be able to make it.

That's the only game I know of I can say they really deserve to be able to call their own though.  Well except the console games but I'm not going to hold that stuff against them.


I've got to admit I'm surprised you liked anything coming out of Bioware at all?   Did you really like BG1/2?  I can't really fathom that someone who enjoyed the good parts of BG2 would hate Kotor to the level you do.

It's really just a matter of style, I guess.  Personally, I prefer freeform stuff.  I don't like the static, formulaic way JRPG's play out.  All your characters are chosen for you, combat is always turn based, and rather simplistic.  A lot of them are less games than excuses for CGI interludes, and most of them feature incomprehensible (and to me, flatout assinine) storylines.  I also despise the generic Japanese form of animation.  There's very little stylistic difference between any given JRPG, and that uniformity gets old for me really fast.

I guess it comes down to whether you like anime or not, and personally I can't stand the shit.  If you like it (God help your tasteless soul) then chances are good that you'll like JRPGs.

That's an interesting outlook.  I love anime but I despise the same things about JRPGs that you seem to.  Of course I do despise certain really popular anime like Evangelion.  That sort of crap does get put into JRPG's a lot.

I don't watch anime.  I've seen like 4 anime movies ever.  Yet, I play the shit out of JRPGs. Where's my shrug smiley?

Most of what you're describing out of ignorance of the genre is true mostly of the worst examples.  There's a lot of generic, shitty JRPGs out there.  The ones where you're only getting the choice of attack/magic/item/defend and nothing ever interupts that cycle. Games where you run into invisible enemies and there's no way to avoid them.  Where there's really poorly written convoluted stories, which always involve you being an orphan prince and the real badguy doesn't show up until you kill the girly she-man you've been chasing the entire game.  You're likely stuck with a wacky (possibly spikey) hairdo though, so you've got to deal with that no matter which one you play. 

Oddly enough, of the western RPGs you listed earlier, the only one with any artistic flair is Vampire and that's mostly just due to its graphics holding up better under modern standards.  The more modern games like NWN2 and Oblivion really fail drastically in the artistic department (I'm not sure if Oblivion's downie faces trump NWN2's being the modern day Arcanum).  Mass Effect at least looks good in the videos I've seen so far, but I'll have to wait to play the game to see how it looks practice.

This might side track the discussion but does everyone here really think of JRPG as meaning RPG made in japan?  I've always thought of the word as meaning "shitty rpg that categorizes all the worst points of the difference between western and eastern rpgs".  I rarely think of tactics rpgs as JRPGs for instance.

Personally, I love most of what both BioWare and BIS have done over the years.

I mean, wtf, there was just So Much to BG2, I'm not sure where the hate is coming from.


But to be fair, I like my fair share of JRPGs/JTBSs as well. Heck, they make up the majority of the stack of unplayed PS2 games I have sitting here, waiting for some point in time when I have the time to play them.

Nice loaded question there.   :-D  It's just mostly country of origin honestly, I've seen very little of that style of game play developed over here. I've seen most tactics like Disgaea or FFT referred to as SRPGs, although they share more in common stylistically and mechanically with JRPGs.  Although, there's also a few different flavors of tactics RPGs: Jagged Alliance 2 or Silent Storm (fucking robots) don't play much like Disgaea and the like put out by Nippon Ichi.

For some reason this all reminds me when someone was trying to argue Final Fantasy was a cRPG (computer rpg, ie BG) because the a Nintendo uses computer chips.

KOTOR was great but very unpolished in almost every way in technical aspects. The game was buggy in just about every way a game could be buggy.

There's no hate for BG II. Read schild's posts again.

KOTOR, imo, had the same bullshit not-quite-freedoms of Fable. Also, the combat was total wank.

I see people shooting their nut over SRPGs from America and 4X space sims and the topics about NISA games here get almost no play from anyone except me, trippy, yegolev, rasix, and uhmmmm, me trippy yegolev and rasix. You "lol pedophile" fuckers are missing out on some of the best tactics gameplay to ever grace the goddamn earth. Disgaea 2 is still a frontrunner for GOTY imo, though the innovations made in Soul Nomad are nothing short of incredible. Also, I'd be shocked if there's a single SRPG or RPG from America with a villain that compares to Gig. Shit, we still haven't made one as good as Kefka. Bob Page comes pretty close though.

It's not about the anime for me guys, I like the colors that pop in those games, but mostly, it's the gameplay. Stuff like KOTOR and such just isn't deep enough for me considering how slow it is.

Btw, I loved the shit out of Baldur's Gate.

Well that's true but in this case it was honest interest because I realize my background is probably different than even most PC rpg lovers.  I started out as a kid on an Amiga 1000 playing stuff like Bard's Tale in so many colors it put other hardware to shame for years, but I also got a NES after a while and played Zelda and pretty much everything since then.    I've always wondered if this makes me look at some things in ways that probably makes my views seem odd.  Even traditional PC gamers probably took a different course through gaming.  I missed several gold box games for instance which is unusual for someone with my tastes.

Also you bringing something like Jagged Alliance up suprises me too since I never even thought of them as remotely in the same category as Disgaea.   As far as I've always looked at it the west hasn't even created a game in the same genre as Disgaea/FFT/Whatever.   Are there other games people consider western that are supposed to be compared to something like Disgaea (unfavorably of course)?


BG2 was the better one by far though.   Seems like it might be that what Bioware is popular for is the stuff you dislike.   Note that's not saying your tastes are bad.  I meant it more like "this thing which Bioware is popular for seems like it might be something Schild hates".

I had no problems with Baldur's Gate 2 either. I should have said Baldur's Gate Series.

Never Winter Nights was the beginning of the end though. It was shit shit shit and I've liked nothing (more than saying it's "good") since then.

Hmm I agree the NWN OC campaign was shit.  I guess I've always dismissed NWN completely because it was like the crpg version of RPG maker.  The OC was just like some sort of shitty tutorial example that happened to help sell boxes.

People bought boxes on the promises of mods. I bought it on that. It was where I learned that most mods are a waste of my time.

It's weird, the only games I've liked mods in are Deus Ex and HL1/2.

Irenicus is the US version of Kefka IMO. Bob Page is up there but he's no Irenicus. He goes from being this ratbastard who is 5 steps ahead of you every time to being this babbling nothing yelling at you over your brainphone in the end while you shit-stomp everything.

I'll be god damned before I consider an elf even remotely as impressive as Kefka. Irenicus was bad, don't get me wrong, but he wasn't trying to take over an empire while poisoning children and mothers on the side.

(http://efaller.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2006/08/kefka_quote_2.png)

I would like to say that at least western RPGS don't always end with you fighting either

1. God

or

2. The incarnation of all Evil/Hate

as summoned by what used to be the main villain at the end of the game. Can I pleeeeeeeease get a fucking JRPG with a good political drama that doesn't end with me fighting a big monster that's the spirit of all evil/hate, God, or just some really powerful monster thing the villain wants to unseal for no reason at all? Can't I just fight the regular human-shaped villain dude in a nice climatic battle and save a country instead of the whole fucking planet? Please? PLEASE?

Maybe I have played the wrong ones, but this about sums up my feeling for JRPGs in a nutshell. And its put me off trying more. The last one I tried was Enchanted Arm, and that is so far the only 360 game I have taken back. Hell, its the only game I have taken back in the last 8 years or so. I fucking hate that invisible enemy shit. Hello, its not 1980s any more.

As the the lolpedo comments, I think those are to work Schild up, more than any one really feeling that way. Although I did feel dirty playing Enchanted Arm because of the girly man stuff. The dialog was so horrible also, I just couldnt take it. It seemed like it was written by a 10 year old.
I dont enjoy the games. I understand that. Personally, I enjoyed KOTOR, and even NWN with the expansions, though it did still feel simplistic.

I really think that a lot of RPGs in general havent evolved as fast as other types of games. The BG series was the last big step forward for me. I am hoping that Mass Effect will be the next one. From what I am reading on it, it could be, but only if it is done right, and well.

Well, yah.  That's what I said.  :-D 


Dude, Enchanted Arms?  Sweet merciful Jesus.  I didn't play it (didn't have a 360) but it didn't appear good from anything I saw or read. As for girlie man stuff in that game.. uhh.. one of the characters was gay with lots of gay dialog.  I remember some sort of hubub here over it. 

Worst JRPG I've played in a while has got to be Legend of Heroes.  Seriously, if you wanted to hate the genre, play that game.  Only game I think that I've ever gotten to the end boss, tried once, died (dual AOEs for all your life, lol), and then never played again.  Derivative, bad story, bad translation, and just tedius.  Still, lasted longer than I did with NWN2  :-P

Um, you consider a character, one of who's lines is "I will create a monument to non-existence!" as an ultimate badass? I think i've mentioned before that i don't share any enthusiasm for JRPGs, so i don't want to sound like i'm jumping on the lolpedo badwagon or anything - but come on...

Man, our forums need a emofringe and/or /wrists smiley. Oh, oh, i'm going to destroy the universe! Oooh, oooooh!

K2 wasn't Bioware's.
It lacks on the challenge department, but the form of entertainment comes from the story and characters, it suffers from the lack of development time..hence 20-30% of the game is omitted from the game but a mod team is trying to fix it.

K2 had a great story going with awfully wordy characters, fully voiced even but somehow you never get the urge to just skip it the first time around due to its great writing. I can't describe it well but check this link out for a great dissection of the game's major plot point and reveal some details people have missed in their playthrough.
http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=2472531&userid=0&perpage=40&pagenumber=41

If I could reach through the internet and kiss you, I would.

BIS/Interplay provided "production assistance," QA, audio, and marketing. Design, programming, and art was all BioWare - and most of those folks still work here. I think you could fairly say that BIS helped a lot with polish - all the subsidiary stuff small new companies can't afford.

Schild told me it was good.

I believe I have identified your error.

No, I said it was gorgeous and NOT BAD.

I didn't say it was _good_. Just not bad. Not as bad as people were making it out to be.

Edit: Apparently, my tolerance for dreck is pretty high. Which is amazing to me considering how much time you assholes spend in MMORPGs.

Could have been desperation over no good RPGs available on the platform.  Hell, if Eternal Sonata isn't good, they still won't have one (Blue Dragon is getting panned).  I suppose Bioshock could be considered an RPG (kind of, sort of). Schild does like some JRPGs that have gotten poor reception; Atlier Iris 3 comes to mind. 

If you want a "will I ever like JRPGs" benchmark: play Shadow Hearts 2: Covenant.  The first one isn't polished enough and the third one just plain isn't good.  Covenant has all of the mechanics you may hate, but the package it's in is awesome.   Great story, great humor, good combat that has great depth, lots of great metagaming aspects, the presentation is easily one of the prettiest games that's ever been on the PS2, and Yuri is just a badass.   Perhaps you'll need to play 1 to get some of the emotional impact of the main story line, but they took enough liberties with the story that it could be played independently.

As for tactics games go, Disgaea 2 is easily one of the best games ever produced in this field.  It's not hard for me to compare this style of tactical RPG to Jagged Alliance 2, Silent Storm or Fallout: Tactics (underrated if buggy as shit).  They're all squad based, turn based, use experience points and character progression (not sure on JA2 specifics, been a while).  Biggest differences are the lack of action points for the NIS games (that has pluses and minuses) and the western focus on conventional warfare.   I wouldn't consider a comparison to Disgaea or Disgaea 2 any sort of slight to a western game  :roll: . Disgaea 2 is really one of the deepest, most solidly put together games I've played. It improves over Disgaea in just about every conceivable fashion.  How can you hate demonic penguins with switchblades that say "dood"?

Heh, I'd really like a graphical update to JA2.  The freedom and campaign style game play was very rewarding. Silent Storm was decent but eventually extremely disappointing.  The last parts of that game nearly made me destroy the CD (last CD I smashed in disgust was IWD2).

I guess the JRPG genre just isn't for everyone, which is fine.  Some of the perceptions kind of bug me because they're based of some of the crappier entries.   :|  It's Final Fantasy 1-3 (US) and Earthbound that really made gaming for me early on. 

Anyhow, yah, Mass Effect.  Minute one purchase.  Hope they've learned their lessons from Jade Empire.

You know, I never thought I'd see someone actually insult Kefka. Sure, my screenshot was in a vacuum, but really, he's one bad motherfucker. And sure, a lot of us weren't even 15 years old when the game came out, but even then. Fuck he was a bad son of a bitch.

Since we're not really talking about Mass Effect anymore, I thought I'd post this picture I just found. I forgot all about Luca Blight.

(http://img228.imageshack.us/img228/1873/1188688999214pa4.jpg)

Started playing JA2 again recently. Awesome, awesome game. And yeah, your characters get levels, skill points, and attribute increases.

Yea but it's missing the main part of an RPGs from what I recall.  The main protagonist doesn't even participate in combat correct?  He's just a commander?  It's just a strat game with RPG elements unless I'm remember wrong.  I don't remember any branching dialogs or deep character classes/skill systems or any of that either.  It's been a while though so no doubt my memory has become biased.

Fallout tactics is probably the only one that even tried to be an rpg from what I remember.  I still don't think it should be compared though because even if it says tactics it's inspiration is still clearly Xcom.  Those are basically all strategy games and shouldn't be considered lacking for missing RPG components.  Silent Storm was a masterpiece untill they screwed up and brought out the armored suits for instance.  In no way did that game need stuff that Disgaea has though.

I guess the other reason I can't accept them being compared is that if someone actually tried to make a proper western SRPG for the PC it would kick the snot out of 95% of the ones currently released.  A really good western SRPG would definitely trump Disgaea in terms of gameplay and other important RPG nuances that JRPGs across the board lack.

Now of course I won't argue western stuff will ever win any style awards.   When I'm ripping my hair out because yet another dumbass random encounter has popped up to utterly waste my time and bore me to tears though I could care less about "style".

You just really don't know what you're talking about.  It's OK, just taking this any farther is pointless.  Here, have a zombie. :vv:

I really need a facepalm or shrug smiley.  Signe?

Nope. They've tried a number of times, and FAILED.

Some companies are leaders of their niche. NISA is one of them.

Funny stuff in this thread.

SRPG's are pretty much the exact same mechanic as the old Turn Based Party RPG's (Gold Box?  Etc...).  I've played Disgea and Disgea 2.  Sure, they are quirky and fun but they really aren't some amazing revolution of, well, anything.

Also, the PAX 07 Dev walk through completely cements that Mass Effect will be day 1 purchase.

Things you can customize about your main character in Mass Effect:

Gender
Looks: almost every facial detail has a slider much like some MMOs use these days. I don't know if it is impossible not to look like a chimp like it was in Oblivion
Background: You have 3 backgrounds to choose from.
Reputation: You likewise have 3 starting reputations to choose from.
Class: You have I think 6 base classes to start with.
First name. The last name is set as Shepard but that's partly for dialogue purposes, so all the NPCs don't have to call you "Hey you."

You can also customize your ground vehicle, weapons, and armor. Though how much I'm unsure about.

As for no good Bioware stuff, ummm...yeah: KOTOR and BG1, BG2, and Jade Empire were all better than 75% of the Jap stuff. And honestly, I think Schild didn't like KOTOR because it was Star Wars. Had it had a similar storyline but in an original setting he'd still be ranting about it today.

There are a few pictures of character customization here:

http://xbox360.ign.com/articles/816/816533p1.html

Oooo.  I can have boobies AND and romance.  This should be an MMO so my character could have an affair with my husband's character in space.  (I'm so dangerous!)

And yet, everything Obsidian does gets shoved out the door unfinished and buggy.

Go go pc version of Mass Effect!

This, my friend, is a completely different barrel of shit for me.

:(

Agreed.

Also, just watched that character creation video and now it's going to be hard to wait for the pc version. I know the guy next door will get the 360 version, so I'll have to boycott him.

Wow, I can't believe I missed this thread.  I feel like I'm late to the party.  Is it too late to rag on bioware?  I played the hell out of KOTOR and Jade Empire, but still...

If Black Isle had survived intact they would have been forced to go 3D at some point and would have wound up putting out the exact same KotOR/Masquerade type games.  And those games are great, ragging on them makes no sense.  Mass Effect will be great too unless it suffers from too much consolization.

A game designed specifically for a console can have too much consolization now?

Seriously, the consolization word gets thrown around by everyone who doesn't get the PC game they wanted.

THE PATH OF THE RIGHTEOUS MAN....

Yes?  Since consolization is a word applied to games which are specifically designed for consoles in the first place.


You mean it gets thrown out when the game is just bad even if it doesn't display consolization?  I don't think it's unfair to toss it out pretty liberally.  It's a pretty specific thing and pretty much every console game that should of been designed for the PC has some degree of consolization.  Even Kotor had very small consolization flaws here and there.

I guess the nitpick I have is the feeling that since the game is an RPG developed by Bioware that it "should of been designed for the PC".  It's not being developed for the PC though.  It's being developed for a console, and as such we aren't talking about "consolization" we're talking about developing a game to take advantage of the fucking system it's being released on as opposed to developing it with a PC port sometime in the distant future in mind.

Its not taking advantage though, its usually a workaround to avoid the disadvantages. No RPG gets better because of some console feature.

No, but it is my feeling that the devs can worry less about compatibility issues and such and more on the game.

I consider X-COM to be a RPG.  Maybe it's a BRPG due to country of origin.  Point is, the core game mechanics are of the same sort as Disgaea: turns, squares, equipment, etc.  Makai Kingdom has base-building of a sort which can be compared at least loosely to X-COM.  The idea that something is preventing the westerners from trumping Nippon Ichi at turn-based tactics games other than a complete lack of talent is very interesting and I'd love to know what that is.

How many times has someone tried to make a X-COM sequel?  Perhaps the problem is that Disgaea has too much stuff, meaning some people would in fact enjoy Disgaea (or any NIS game) if a stripped-down version was made.  This is how we got the castrated version of early Final Fantasy games, because Westerners were viewed at too unsophisticated to appreciate the original, full game.  Maybe we are, collectively.  I'm not going to say that someone is wrong for wanting a simpler or more pure game, though, since that can be loads of fun.

Shodan.  All others are number two or lower.

I choked on my coffee. How did this view come about?

I don't know.  To the best of my knowledge, FFIV was really the only FF game where we got an easier version (went it was released on the SNES as FFII).

Everything past FF3 (thats right I used a number not roman numerals. bitches) is dead to me.

Perhaps you are using the old fashioned meaning of the word where it was applied to arcade games which got ported to the console?   I don't think that particular meaning has very little to do with what PC gamers mean when they use the word.   I ask because what you said is in fact consolization from a PC gamers point of view.

Perhaps my view is exaggerated because I am still annoyed at Mystic Quest.  And bothered a lot by FFIV -> FFII US.  Since it was brought up and I have thought about it, I cannot remember any specific gimping on FFVI during localization so I may me imagining it.  In any case, it's history as far as I know.

I'm going to go home and blow shit up in an underwater city until my wife goes to sleep, at which point I will play some sort of convoluted combat-centric game.

I understand what PC gamers mean when they use the word.  Usually though,  they use it when describing a game that's made for both the PC and consoles in order to express the idea that the PC version was in some way hampered by the fact that the developers had to design the game with a console version in mind also.  In this case it's just a console game, and I just think that it's a bit stupid to worry about consolization in a console game.

How is it just a console game?  Kotor was supposed to be just a console game too but Bioware clearly only says that sort of thing to appease MS.  It's almost certain it's a PC game too.

Kotor was released on the PC only about 4 months after the Xbox release.  It was being developed at the same time as the Xbox version (in fact, I think the PC version was announced first) and developed with both platforms in mind.  Jade Empire for the PC was released almost 2 years after the Xbox version.  It was pretty much an after-thought.  Mass Effect being part of a planned trilogy, I imagine that even if it does get ported to the PC a year or two down the road, the job of porting the game will probably be handed off to some other team since I'm guessing the main team will go straight into working on part 2.

All of this matters why exactly?  It's still consolization if it comes out 10 years from now on the PC and it has console flaws due to being originally designed for a console.   Why do you have to try and change the word?  Is there some reason you object to the definition they are using?  As long as you can understand what they are saying it should be fine right?

10 years down the line then, when the game comes out on the PC you can say "man, PC ports of 10 year old console games kinda suck".  Right now though, worrying that a console game might play too much like a console game is just stupid, and the only reason one would do it in this instance is if they somehow feel that PC gamers are Bioware's true audience and the 360 version is just there to make money selling to the masses.  Otherwise why not go into the Warhawk thread or any other thread about a console game and complain about consolization?  It makes about as much sense.

This was not your original argument.  I only objected to you claiming a game designed for a console can't have too much consolization.   Such a statement is completely at odds with the very definition of the word.

Although to discuss what you just said you are completely wrong in saying that I shouldn't worry about it.  Console games suck.   There are many things that console games should not do even when they are purely console games in the first place.   I should DEFINITELY worry that Mass Effect will have shitty consolization problems.  Maybe you want it to have consolization but that sure as hell doesn't apply to me.

Your warhawk analogy is fucking stupid by the way.  I don't even have to justify that.  You knew it was fucking stupid lawyering when you typed it just like I did when I read it.

This is getting pathetic. 

I gotta give them a load of props for not falling to the excuse of many people prior to them about how creating a protagonist that can be both male and female is too difficult.

I actually dislike it when the protagonist can be changed nowdays. What it means is that you can't show them in FMVs and you cannot voice them because doing those things twice for male/female is crazy. I even dislike naming the protagonist because in today voiced games it just means you can never say their name. FFX was particularly jarring here because they called Tidus "you" or "he" all the way through the whole goddamn game. Why? So we could rename him? Who gave a toss? It's Tidus. The one thing FFX-2 did better was have a set protagonist. Of course it then pissed it away by making the game so jarringly girly and japanese that I nearly choked on it, but hey you can't have everything.

This is not the game you are looking for. You can go about your business. Move along... move along.

People still care about FMVs?

I think it can work well (see: Master Chief or maybe Persona 3), but in RPGs, yes, every time the voice-overs have to do grammatical backflips, it really detracts from things. FF12 also had a fixed protagonist/POV, but it was basically an ensemble cast, so I don't know how applicable that is to Mass Effect.

As for visually being able to tweak the character, I love that stuff (the only "FMVs" I've liked recently have been Persona 3's). I guess Mass Effect is getting around that by calling you Shepard, avoiding the need for any cringe-inducing grammatical jujitsu.

Bring on the ass slider!

hmm i wonder when are we gonna get a robo-voice to just pronouce our names. 'Commander *in Terminator style tone* Asshole *return to normal voice actor* we have a problem'

I'm glad you could finally just come out and say it.  Now get the fuck out of a topic about a console game.

Agreed.

In-game rendered cutscenes are good enough.  Metal Gear Solid proved that.  A lot of the complaints people are having are just personal preference.  That's why I'm willing to accept them and not really change my position on any of the subjects mentioned.  Yes, I love that they used a generic *last name* and allowed you to name your character whatever you want.  It's crazy to record Female AND Male stuff, but they did it, and it'll work in this game.  The thing is, whatever you do, it has to work with what you're doing.  Sounds stupid, I know, but if you're going to have a silent protaganist, don't expect there to be any major personal character development.  That would mean YOU'D have to personally grow, and I've yet to see a game do something like that.

I don't think Shepard is a silent protagonist. I've seen a few in-game scenes of him talking to people. (usually threatening to beat the shit out of them or something.)

There was a time when full voice was "crazy", so having both a male and female track isn't a big leap.

Same voice was used, the female Shepard is just a butch.

Sorry, was attempting to speak in a generality about how the choices you make for how the main character works needs to work with the game system.  The fact that you choose the emotion of what you are going to say rather than the actual line of dialog is really cool for Mass Effect.

http://www.gametrailers.com/player/24938.html

 woot, i can't wait 4 the pc port. imma shoot people's kneecaps.

Ohmyachin. That looks great. PEEEECEEEE VEEEERSION NOOOOOOWWWW!!! :)

IGN has a hands on with the first hour with lots of new videos including a possible opening cinematic (a small portion of it changes depending on your characters background and of course gender) as well as character creation videos. They made a nice looking female Shepard. They referred to her as a battle scarred model and I'd agree. So, no Oblivion horse faces in this game it looks like.

I'm watching the videos now and I'm quite excited about the game. I'm not sure about the "ring" system of choosing commands yet, but it could be good.

My character shall be named Dr. Girlfriend Shepard!

Is there ANY chance for this at all?

It's probably not an 'if' , but a 'when'.

If you guys want, I'll record myself playing it.  I can pretend it's having problems with my video card.  I can then turn off shadows or perhaps even set textures to medium quality.   Perhaps with some nifty video editing I can make it look like I'm playing with a keyboard and mouse!  It'll be like comfort food for your soul.

 :rofl:

Yah, it's a "when" and I remember at least the KOTOR port was pretty nice. I think it even had an extra encounter.

Err...I have a decent pc, Ras :) As long as they don't port it to the PS2 first and then use those textures....

Jade Empire showed us Bioware will port to pc even when they've said pretty adamantly that they won't. It also showed that consolization is sucky, but Mass Effect looks waay better than JE looked with the crappy xbox hardware. The crappy 360 hardware is much nicer :)

This is the game that is making me have to really exert some willpower to avoid buying a 360. Luckily, there's the fact that I'm broke.

Just break down and get a 360.  Do you really want to be playing Mass Effect around the time everyone else is getting Mass Effect 2?

At the least I'd hold off until the die shrink. I'm a patient man, I've become used to waiting for the pc versions of console games, and regret the one time I didn't (KotOR). I just wish Bioware was quicker about creating the pc version, Jade Empire took forever. I'm all for doing it right, though, which is where I derive my patience. That, and already having more games than I can play despite only buying a fraction of what most people here buy.

The female Shepards voice is Jennifer Hale for those who are curious. She did the voice of Bastilla in KOTOR. Check her IMDB profile. She's done a TON of video games and animation.

The game also has Lance Henriksen as some crusty old Admiral and Seth Green as "Joker", your ship's pilot. David Keith is in there somewhere as well, hopefully as the main villain. (Though I'd almost prefer Lance Henriksen in that role. Maybe the admiral will go bad.)

I agree. BTW, am I the only one who has setup my XBOX 360 to get pics and stuff from my PC? Something about being able to watch downloaded movies on my high def TV is great. (and no, I'm not trailing a cable through my entire house so I can hook the video card directly to the PC.)

No, you aren't. We have an original xbox, a 360, and the PS3 doing this between 2 tvs. The original Xbox is for xvid and other codecs that companies pretend don't exist.

And another reason to get Mass Effect, hot lesbian sex!

http://www.penny-arcade.com/ (http://www.penny-arcade.com/)

Game, Set and Match my dear Mr. Schild.

Alien lesbian sex. Don't misinform. For real though, that was one of the first PA's I liked in forever. The last panel was money.

Gone gold. (http://xbox360.ign.com/articles/829/829109p1.html)

*tries not to eat his own arm off while waiting*

So, a couple of interesting things. There is a limited edition out that you can't order in-store from Gamestop but can order from their online store. WTF? So, I want to spend money in your local store but I'm not allowed?

Game Informer has an advance review. They basically drooled all over the story but noted some interesting gameplay hitches, like bad AI at times with your allies. Interestingly, they noted things like you might have an ally shooting a wall during a fight but still gave it something like a 9 or 9.5 out of 10 mostly based on the storyline and universe from what I could tell.

That seems to be what all the crazy kids are doing, giving high scores to games with ridiculously shit AI.  Halo 3 Driving, anyone?

Cough...cough...EX 3... :awesome_for_real:

Really though I think Mass Effect looks cool. I actually would like to play that.

I'm sorry, should I have mentioned the word standards? I have some. EX is way below them. Also, sucks. What the fuck are you doing in here anyway? This is an RPG thread.


As we've discovered lately. You'll play anything.  :awesome_for_real: But really, for real. Anything.

Oh also, I don't look at X-COM as an RPG but more of a Strat game... Maybe Strat RPG.. Also, I think the Galip Bros do the best Strat game play...I guess that is just me. I like the battles in there stuff more than Disgairiaieiaieia.

There are plenty of new games coming out on PC right now to make the wait not so unbearable.
Witcher for one is  :awesome_for_real:, Then there's Hellgate  :|

Origin made the rpgs that i loved early on, the consoles kinda picked up the torch after them... imo the western devs suck. I may be shot down, but imo... Diablo 1 / 2 was the last great pc rpgs made... i loved the diablo games... (bout to reinstall d2 LoD)

aside for BG and kotor, bioshat has made some seriously shitty games... NWN? what a turd that one was. the worst 3d graphics ive ever seen... (maybe a bit much lol).

JP RPGS that pwn all that bio shat.

Phanzer Dragoon Saga (if you dont know about this game, your just not a gamer)
Castlevania SoTN (between this and vagrant, hard to pick)
Vagrant Story (IMO, the greatest rpg made in the last decade) (PSX)
FF Tactics (PSX)
Ogre Battle / 64
Zelda OoT

I dont consider ff tactics a ff game (I refuse to list an FF game in this list), in fact, FF Tactics is deepley tied to Vagrant Story (just ignore the chocobos)

Ill even go as far back as say games like Phantasy Star 4 (yeah im a p-star fanboi) (talkin 16 bit era now lol)
Dragon Force
Crono Trigger (still holds up)
Metroid

that being said, i really enjoyed kotor and i wana play Mass Effect... badly (yay for sci fi!)... just wish we could get a true sequel to Wing Commander Privateer (and fuck you, that FMV shit was a fucken piece of flying shit).

grunk, do you even know what an RPG is?

Diablo 1/2 are not RPGs. They are all about the loot-ding-grats. I'd go so far to say they are the progenitor of MMOs in some ways. You kept playing for that elusive rare loot.

Castlevania SOTN? That's an action game, not an RPG.

Metroid? An RPG? Are you fucking kidding me?

Your idea of an RPG, is that of sitting in your moms basement, rolling dice... STFU prz.

Oh man, that's awesome.

Can i have some fucken cake?

Retarded drug addicts don't get cake.

They get detox and cattle prods.

They also get sedatives and orderly delivered anal rape.

SOTN and Metroid are not rpgs..Neither is Diablo..  :roll:

Schild: Is there any way you can get a rolling eyes icon that is more ...rolly? :wink:

THey are listed under the RPG Genre... hence, they are labled as RPGs. WTF

Obviously, that list is wrong.  :roll:

:awesome_for_real:

Just because a marketing drone is stupid doesn't mean you need to follow in his wake.

Welcome back to the site grunk, you cockmunching troll.

Talkin' to yourself again, eh Bunky? :) J/K, I know you're not grunk.

I want to snuggle this game. just sniff the plastic and pretend I have a 360. mmmm. :pedobear:

grunk should write a weekly column.

Off My Meds: A Chronicle of Gaming by a Deranged Lunatic.

If Jessica Chobot can get paid to write a regular column, anything is possible.

Maybe it's just me, but I don't want to see pics of grunk licking any handheld.

 :awesome_for_real:
(http://i169.photobucket.com/albums/u215/Surgleh/54kq69y.jpg)
http://www.rpgcodex.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=21072&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

i think bioware is pushing too hard to please everyone, before you know it, we'll have man on man action.  :heartbreak:

Come on. It's lesbians in space. It doesn't get better!

KOTOR had a lesbian catgirl jedi. That's got to be some sort of geek fetish trifecta.

I'm pretty sure Jade Empires had a gay male romance line.  It was with the "Sky" character.  I remember Stormwaltz mentioning it. Maybe he was just trying to annoy our Sky.

Edit: internets confirm.  I never did manage to get anywhere with any of the Jade Empire romance plots. 

 :|

So?

 Wookie love incoming imo Kotor3

Wookie on ewok action?

You'd need like three Ewoks per Wookie though.

 :pedobear:

This is an entirely new spin on 'bent my wookie' 

No, remember that Lucas doesn't give a shit about pleasing adults.  He only cares about the childrens.  To that end... midget stormtroopers!

:hello_thar:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=vI1b2760ny4

 :| you're right

You know, I used to be a ridiculous Star Wars nerd, and yet I managed to avoid seeing even the tiniest clip of that cartoon.  Until just now.  I'm going to go cry now.

I've seen a lot of reports of K-mart breaking street date on Mass Effect in the last couple of days, so anyone picking this game up might should beware of spoilers on other boards for the next week and a half or so.

Get all of your hot hot alien non-porn here (still probably NWS, but nary a nipple in sight).

http://www.gamevideos.com/video/id/16127

(http://www.zombiehof.com/goor/pics/secretshame.gif)

Video not up anymore. YouTube has copies, though.

I'll buy anything that's banned in Singapore. (http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20071115/tc_nm/microsoft_singapore_ban_dc_2)  Worthless reporter said it was "by Microsoft" but whatever.

Microsoft is the publisher I think so ehh...

yeah, I read about this banning. So basically, you can't even have lesbian sex in Singapore? I'll never go there now!

Umm, homosexual sex is a crime in Singapore.. They took away the law a while back, and then put it back in cause a lot of people are complaining about it.  :uhrr:

See, the global community has more in common than we thought. Rednecks and Singaporeans, hating together in blissful harmony.

N-n-n-necroquote!
Looks a lot like a fusion of KOTOR and Gears of War combat with a nice interactive cinematic conversation system.  Obvious result: Win.

Some very nice additional footage in a montage (dated yesterday) here (http://www.gametrailers.com/player/27916.html).

Hot alien love (http://www.actiontrip.com/comics/at_comic233.phtml) aside, this one's a must-buy for me.

This game has some slow ass elevators.

What the heck is an ass elevator?

Any elevator in Mass Effect

Technically, it has elevators covering slow-ass level transitions.

Ass Effect? OH NOES!



(Stormy: I kid, I kid, get back to working on the pc port! ;))

Are you sure? As far as I know 'unnatural' sex acts have always been illegal and that covers homosexual sex, oral sex, anal sex, and probably a few others.
The govt. took a less harsh stance on homosexuality, but they never made it legal to have gay sex.

Sorry for the tangent =P.

The Internet Agrees (http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2007/11/16)

After copping much flak over the Mass Effect ban, Singapore's Media Development Authority (AKA board of censors) has released a rap video in an attempt to show they're not a bunch of backward old prudes.

I kid you not. This is genuine, the Singapore MDA's attempt at public relations: http://youtube.com/watch?v=qjLw28UVWEU

Don't make me link to "Don't Copy That Floppy".  It kind of puts this video in a better light now, doesn't it?