SWTOR

[Koyasha]

I do see why they might be reluctant to launch a long, inclusive beta like WoW did, though.  If the strength of their game is the story and they put it all out there in beta, then a lot of people might very well play through most of the content during beta, especially if said beta is several months long.  At that point they'll have little reason to buy the game until they start producing expansions and additional story content.

[Sky]

I think WoW got lucky with their long beta, also I think multiple starting areas helped. I got tired of the Rift beta in the third event, and those were just weekend events. Since I'm not an 'mmo lifestyle' person, the endgame won't mean anything to me, so if Rift had done a traditional 'play it to the endgame' beta, there'd be no reason for me to play the release.

Anyway, fuck the fans, they're impossible to please. Give them a level-capped weekend before launch for stress testing and that's it.

[Lakov_Sanite]

Anyway, fuck the fans, they're impossible to please.

pretty sure this is why most mmo's fail.

[SnakeCharmer]

Pretty sure that statement is really wrong

[Malakili]

Most MMOs fail because they are unpolished, clunky, and content sparse compared to what is already on the market in their respective subgenre.  Its possible that SWTOR has a chance to come close on these fronts actually, but its just a lot harder to get into the market when there is a behemoth out there already.   WoW's release timing was one of the reasons it did so well, and once it had a foothold it really capitalized on it.   If SWTOR can do well enough to get that same kind of foothoold, and then continue to refine the experience and pump out more content, it will be in good shape.

[Paelos]

SWTOR will succeed if their content releases are story-driven, monthly, and they involve some other time sinks like pvp and crafting that have a point and/or are remotely balanced in terms of participation and economics. Remotely is the key part, because it's never actually balanced.

[Kageru]

WoW's release timing was one of the reasons it did so well, and once it had a foothold it really capitalized on it.

That doesn't really match my memory. EQ was still dominant, EQ2 was based on a design spec of "remove the fun" and I don't recall anything in line to challenge any of those three. WoW did well because it was a dramatically superior game to the EQ's and due to Blizzards popularity a lot of people gave it a try.

SWTOR will succeed if their content releases are story-driven, monthly, and they involve some other time sinks like pvp and crafting that have a point and/or are remotely balanced in terms of participation and economics. Remotely is the key part, because it's never actually balanced.

That has never worked. Blizzard is rolling around in money and not even they can afford or find staff for a team to develop quality content at that rate. This is the Fallen Earth plan of trying to build the world ahead of the players and it is a wilful self-deception about the rate at which players consume content. It does not answer the question of why the player would keep up a sub between content releases, or why they would not just come back every 6 months and sub for a month to consume all the content up to that date.

[Sky]

I actually agree with Kageru's assessment. EQ was so primitive it needed to be replaced. EQ2 REALLY bungled their launch. My necromancer not only couldn't solo a lot of overland mobs, but I had a beetle for a pet because I couldn't be a necromancer. I quit before I hit level 20 because I had so many group-only quest cockblocks and had spent 17 levels playing a class I didn't want to play.

Rift doesn't even have the character that EQ2 had, it just seems pretty generic. I'm not a huge WoW fan, but their racial starting areas are a huge feather in their cap, it gives each race a flavor and feeling that nobody seems able to match thus far.

While I also agree about the content consumption, I'm a slow gamer (derp!). It takes me a while to work through content, the reason I only sub for a few months a year is more to do with experiencing life than with content. Even with EQ2, I had years worth of content left, and I mostly soloed. But I'm far from the typical mmo player, apparently.

[SnakeCharmer]

Never seen this discussion!

"Why WoW sells like vaginas on hotcakes and why everything else 'fails' argument number 1092387490187348917328947190837490187349".

Go!

[Malakili]

WoW's release timing was one of the reasons it did so well, and once it had a foothold it really capitalized on it.

That doesn't really match my memory. EQ was still dominant, EQ2 was based on a design spec of "remove the fun" and I don't recall anything in line to challenge any of those three. WoW did well because it was a dramatically superior game to the EQ's and due to Blizzards popularity a lot of people gave it a try.

I'm not saying anything different really.  But (obviously), WoW released into a non-WoW market.  WoW released against WoW: Cataclysm would get laughed off the market in no time.   WoW was better than its competition because (in part) it didn't have much competition.   Everything now can't simply be good, it has to be stellar, or else its going to be worse than whats out there.  My point being, the timing DID matter, because "superior" is a term relative to other games.  Superior now is a lot bigger hill to climb.

[Paelos]

God, we're not really doing this are we? I know the game releases a derth of information, but please.

[Sky]

[SnakeCharmer]

there's not enough bleach in the world to scrub that image from my brain...

diaf, Sky

[Sky]

I blame Paelos.

[Nebu]

So she skipped a a few waxing appointments.  What's the big deal?

[Lucas]

Well, we could post videos taken from..."questionable" sources but [Perception] I don't think that's allowed :P  

(well, I'm sure everyone is already aware of them given the flow of info from official sources, anyway :P)

[Outlawedprod]

http://swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=5167882#edit5167882

Translation: We are sorry there is a lack of any updates which could make the community actually be stoked about the game.

In their defense, what more can they do?  They release something weekly and have done so since 2008 or whenever they launched.

Pro tip:  Just because you don't like what they're saying doesn't mean they're being quiet about it.  

Maybe release something meaningful?  My snarky comment was merely meant to underlie that they are not even close to meeting happiness expectations of people who are already sold on the game.  As much money and dev work they have on this thing coupled with the amount of marketing they probably will spend it's sad that they have yet to show even one "sweet" gameplay moment or clip that gets the fanbois happy.  Instead they release a planet, lore info, or some generic info about a class.  The main thing that got people going oh shit so far was a CG clip =p.  The gameplay clips of Guild Wars 2 from PAX or fucking even Tera Online or Rift show a vast gulf between their positive buzz and this game.  If this is the best big money can do with Star Wars after the failure of Galaxies I feel sad for the people making the actual content in this game.  They don't have to re-imagine or invent a new mmo.  All they have to do to calm the fanbois down is show something mmo gameplay related that people can get excited about.  Either they have none to show or what they have is so lackluster it will do more harm than good.   The fact it has yet to happen after weekly info releases since 2008 does not bode well.

[SnakeCharmer]

That community of players, those...freaks...at SWTOR (and I guess you?) are never going to be satisfied.  

 
You already know the combat/gameplay.  You've played it in a dozen or more MMOs dating back about 10 years.  It's nothing special, and I don't know what more videos or exposition of bullshit from "Lead Designer Massive Fucking Buckethead" will do to change it.

[Ginaz]

http://swtor.com/community/showthread.php?p=5167882#edit5167882

Translation: We are sorry there is a lack of any updates which could make the community actually be stoked about the game.

In their defense, what more can they do?  They release something weekly and have done so since 2008 or whenever they launched.

Pro tip:  Just because you don't like what they're saying doesn't mean they're being quiet about it.  

Maybe release something meaningful?  My snarky comment was merely meant to underlie that they are not even close to meeting happiness expectations of people who are already sold on the game.  As much money and dev work they have on this thing coupled with the amount of marketing they probably will spend it's sad that they have yet to show even one "sweet" gameplay moment or clip that gets the fanbois happy.  Instead they release a planet, lore info, or some generic info about a class.  The main thing that got people going oh shit so far was a CG clip =p.  The gameplay clips of Guild Wars 2 from PAX or fucking even Tera Online or Rift show a vast gulf between their positive buzz and this game.  If this is the best big money can do with Star Wars after the failure of Galaxies I feel sad for the people making the actual content in this game.  They don't have to re-imagine or invent a new mmo.  All they have to do to calm the fanbois down is show something mmo gameplay related that people can get excited about.  Either they have none to show or what they have is so lackluster it will do more harm than good.   The fact it has yet to happen after weekly info releases since 2008 does not bode well.

If you're looking for game play footage, its out there.  Not much, but I have seen a few videos showing the game being played.  Just don't expect to see anything innovative or different when it comes to combat.  Of course, the combat never was going to that way.  If the combat ends up being WoW with a SW skin, I think I can live with that as long as theres enough "stuff" thats different than WoW, which it looks like there might be.  I know I'm not the only one who feels that way, too.

As for the lack of info released, they've pretty much been feeding us a slow, steady stream for the past 2 years or so.  We know what the classes are and a bit on how they will work.  We've seen what space combat will be like.  We have a good idea on how companions are going to work.  We know that there will most likely be a lot of story based content to go through.  So other than the nitty gritty of ground combat, what more are you looking for?

[SnakeCharmer]

 So other than the nitty gritty of ground combat, what more are you looking for?

"In TOR, if you press the hotkey this way, it does THIS.  In other games, if you press it the same way, it does THAT.  See the difference?"

"In TOR, you have to build up rage to execute specials.  Totally unique from other MMOs!   Wait.  What's that?  You did the same thing in WoW? 

Fuck."

"In TOR, we don't have mana pools, we have force pools.  That's different....right?"

"In TOR, our combat is choreographed!  Really, it is!  STORY, BITCHES!"

[Sky]

I looked at the official forums. What a joke. Both for such useless drivel and the sad commentary on so many fucking people out there.

I still believe a lot of the initial slip was covering their asses with the 'other players can choose how your story plays out', because that's just an awful mechanic. And then to gut out a lot of cool stuff to make it more like WoW.

[Malakili]

 You've played it in a dozen or more MMOs dating back about 10 years.  It's nothing special, and I don't know what more videos or exposition of bullshit from "Lead Designer Massive Fucking Buckethead" will do to change it.

I think we just have very little good idea of what exactly playing for an hour is going to be like.  Like, I log in, what do I do? What is the arc of a typical play session?  I think thats where the holes lie for me.  I have all these bits of information, but i have very little feeling for how it all works together.

 No amount of mechanical info will really tell us either.  Is it really just WoW + Starwars, is it more like playing KOTOR with shared multiplayer space, something else entirely?  I think thats what people want to know.  What is the experience like for the player.  All this information about planets and classes is meaningless to that unfortunately, so people feel like they aren't any closer to knowing what they actually want to know, and therefore feel like the information being told isn't satisfying.

[Paelos]

Combat play footage is out there in droves on youtube. You will see that it's exactly like everything else. Walk up to something, click it, use numbered keys for your abilities, loot it, move on.

The differences come in the long cutscenes where you do spin the ME talky-wheel to see if you lightsaber someone in the chops.

[SnakeCharmer]

Exactly.  There's plenty of footage out there, both from Bioware and 'unofficial' sources.  It's just more of the same with cutsenes and VO (with ME/KOTOR/Dragon Age convo wheel), and seems to focus more on solo / small group play.

[Sky]

It's WoW+cutscenes+rebel assault.

Like Rift is WoW+souls+rifts.

No big budget mmo team is risking their necks making anything too different from WoW. Just be glad these went into production early enough to not be Zynga-enabled.

[Fordel]

I've said this already probably, but if it actually is as good as WoW, but in space, then it will be a raging success.


Not, sorta like WoW, or almost as good as WoW, but honest to goodness I press my buttons and it feels as slick and responsive as WoW.



I'm guessing though, it will be WAR in space instead 

[Velorath]

Exactly.  There's plenty of footage out there, both from Bioware and 'unofficial' sources.  It's just more of the same with cutsenes and VO (with ME/KOTOR/Dragon Age convo wheel), and seems to focus more on solo / small group play.

Yeah, I've seen leaks out there, the official information Bioware puts out, and detailed impressions from major game sites and bloggers who got several hours of hands-on play.  About the only real question mark I've seen at this point is the end game.  I don't think there's any hidden information about the game that's going to make he cynics fall in love with it at this point, and even if there is I don't see any reason why people need to have it NOW rather than say, wait for a public beta or something before the game releases.  I'm looking forward to Guild Wars 2, but I don't go around bitching that they've been fairly quiet on news for the past couple months.

[Merusk]

I've said this already probably, but if it actually is as good as WoW, but in space, then it will be a raging success.


Not, sorta like WoW, or almost as good as WoW, but honest to goodness I press my buttons and it feels as slick and responsive as WoW.



I'm guessing though, it will be WAR in space instead 

I have a sad, sad feeling you're right. It will be that or it will have LOTRO response times, killing it.

[Outlawedprod]

That community of players, those...freaks...at SWTOR (and I guess you?) are never going to be satisfied.  

You already know the combat/gameplay.  You've played it in a dozen or more MMOs dating back about 10 years.  It's nothing special

I don't need to be satisfied nor do the people on those forums. I still stand by my comment is this the best they can do?  The promo videos they've show and the footage from shows has been lackluster.  They're bragging point is their voice acting and personal story focus.  However they have yet to show any decent NPC interaction that has meaningful writing or events happening.  When I say gameplay footage I don't just mean some combat footage of people auto-attacking.  I mean show me something that sells this live in-game without the expensive CG.  The dragon fight from Guild Wars 2 demo did it for me and the action gameplay free target clips from tera obt worked because that sells their strong points.  Why am I not impressed with SWTOR offering so far?  They haven't shown me anything creative in terms of personal story or voice acting. That's their selling point and if they want to sell this thing they will have to start taking some wraps off soon and release story spoiler footage if nothing else.  Right now I haven't seen any NPCs to quest for or against or whatnot that have anymore personality than Mr Smite from Deadmines.  Which is funny because there is a great contrast between Mr Smite and characters with even just 5% of the quality of Kotor/Mass Effect.  I noticed awhile back they had some post about HK-47 or something.  So where's the quest where HK-47 runs in and accidentally blows away like 5 guys for you with a snappy line?  I mean that was kind of the more memorable  characters of Kotor.  If personal story is their focus and they don't have some grand epic quest schemes already lined up then I have to question just WTF was all that voice acting wasted on... If they have any cool starter quests they might want to start showing them by the time Summer hits at least.

On a side note I think this game will do well at launch regardless.  In the first month the biggest challenge is going to be weathering the storm of mmo-hoppers looking for the next thing and the large pool of griefers that will see much potential in this title and those rabid fanbois from the swtor forums.

[ghost]

To be honest, if they can make this like a KOTOR III with extras I'll be happy.  I'm only interested in the single player story on this. 

[Paelos]

The only thing SWTOR needs to do well is stability. They can't have any technical problems, stupid bugs, crashing instances, NPCs ignoring your decisions, lagging animations for voiceovers, etc. If they do that well, the game stays stable, and there is one pve and one pvp timesink for gear rewards, they will be fine in the short run.

They have to build on that base, but that's enough to start.

[Sky]

If the release date doesn't slip again, that should work nicely. I'll grab the game in October, once the hoppers and lookee-loos have cleared out, the first few rounds of bug patches have gone in, and have a nice winter playing kotor3.

I don't need to be satisfied nor do the people on those forums.

You sound unsatisfied.

[Reg]

To be honest, if they can make this like a KOTOR III with extras I'll be happy.  I'm only interested in the single player story on this. 

That's all I'm hoping for too.  If each character class really has a KOTOR"s worth of unique single player content I should be able to play for months before I run out of stuff to do and unsubscribe until an expansion comes out.

[SnakeCharmer]

I think alot of people are hope for just that.  As long as I can do most of the content solo, and supplement the rest with the gaming buddies I have left, I'll be happy.  Hell, if I can jump on a character and group with one of you guys and tackle some content, I'll be ecstatic.  I don't have the time nor the inclination to catass to victory in an MMO anymore and progression levels are just arbitrary numbers in the grand scheme of things.

[Paelos]

Rumors I've heard maintain that it's basically group with whoever you want and let companions fill out the roles. It's also been rumored to me that you can do dungeons with nothing but companions healing perfectly fine. In fact, maybe too fine...