Pre-release thread discussion

[Paelos]

SWTOR is a clone of a game we've all played before, with a really pretty wrapper and what amounts to softly enforced RP rules due to the impact the story has on how you actually wind up playing the game. It will stick with people who like that, and it won't stick with MMO nomads who don't like that. Normally I'd be in the second camp and planning to drift off in a few months, but the game is oddly sticking with me more than I thought it would.

I'm almost certain that exact thing would have been said about WoW when it came out and EQ was the standard.

Also, Falc has gone off the deep end of doomcasting it seems.

[Sky]

What surprises me is that the majority here seem unable to distinguish between the the puppy love (which is cute), and the overall quality of the product in its genre. A good friend of mine summarized his brief SWTOR experience with: "It's a piece of shit, but I'm having fun for now (4 days)". I agree, I think it sounds contradictory but it's not.
I'm a little worried by the regulars here, who've see everything and you would expect capable of usefully cynical commentary, too busy frothing to notice the blatant shortcomings of this game.

I'm more concerned with this trend of thinking that because people enjoy it and aren't all bunched up because it's not ZOMG 2011 MECHANICS translates to some kind of flaw.

Rift has GREAT mechanics, revolutionized (or at least seriously evolved on the brink of revolution) several systems...but it's a boring game to play. TOR is fun. For some, the mechanics aren't as important as whether or not the game is fun. I think it's great having both games out there. If mechanics are your thing, there's your game over there. I guess maybe I'm surprised how much people seem to really dislike this game but continue to talk about it. I don't like WoW, but I'm not in there posting about it. Bizarre. I'd rather spend time talking about games I do like.

It will stick with people who like that, and it won't stick with MMO nomads who don't like that.

That sums it up pretty well. But what exactly WOULD stick with mmo nomads? WoW2? I'm ok with the fact it's not TOR, since I tend to dislike the things the 'mmo vets' like.

[Amaron]

Really?
Maybe I aged bad, and I got so cynical I became blind then.

Or you wish they would have made other choices and you're mistaking that ideal for quality?

[Lucas]

Again, it's about expectations: I'm a casual MMO gamer. I play MMOs * in between* CRPGs and other games. If I'll ever manage to exhaust all eight storylines, at my pace I'll do so in about 10 months or maybe a little more.

Also, I'm here for the Story and a bit of roleplaying, not for the diku mechanics, which I hate; but it's a Bioware product, hence I'm expecting to be entertained by the stories they will tell. For a true MMO experience, I'll look at ArcheAge and other sandbox oriented products, certainly not artificial dikus with the silly and borin' trinity and whatnot (and again, I can see past it with TOR because other aspects of the game make it interesting enough).

[eldaec]

So I was randomly looking at some item lists.

Practically everything has bind on equip/pickup. Firstly, when do designers intend to get tired of this less-than-worthless mechanic? Secondly, surely it can't be on every damn thing - Darthhater's database has literally nothing without bind on whatever?

[Sky]

I don't necessarily hate diku mechanics, any more than I hate shooter mechanics. I think it goes south when people obsess to the nth degree over them, which is probably the root cause of my issues with mmo. Lots of people spend way too much time digging way too deep; and if the game doesn't reward that it's clunky and easy and simplistic. Whereas I see the mechanics as just being there to support the story in the case of TOR, and don't find the mechanics bad because they're fun and I'm shooting stuff with droid parts and chopping with lightsabers and force leaping and not worrying how to squeeze the last 1% of efficiency out of my rotation or whatever.

Two entirely different approaches, and I personally hope BWA continues to follow the path they have and not cater to the more obsessive end of the spectrum. There are games out there for that, but not much out there in mmo land for the more casual end of the spectrum.

[Numtini]

Or you wish they would have made other choices and you're mistaking that ideal for quality?

At least for me, I don't think so. Yeah, I'd have implemented companions differently--instead of 8 quests for 8 companions, I'd have had 1 quest with 8 forks that anyone could choose. I would have gone lighter on the cut scenes. But that's not quality.

Quality is the rebel spaceship through the window just plain not moving in BT and looking like something from AO. It's, I dunno, jarring. Quality is the light saber poking through my leku. And honestly, you can make a claim that a LFG system or dual spec are choices, but I think they're quality issues at this point. And llack of a configurable UI in 2011 is absolutely a quality issue.

[DraconianOne]

I'm almost certain that exact thing would have been said about WoW when it came out and EQ was the standard.

I have been unbelievably bored at work today so.... from pre-release WoW threads that are 7 years old:

It's not that I don't like the graphics. I liked them.

5 YEARS AGO.

Oh and I noticed some type of animation was attached. the weapons just go through shit and I can run through enemies, etc etc. It's crap. For the amount of money they spent - a better product should have come out of it.

...

2. Too bad it still looks like shit at 1280x1024. Shit as in, could have been out 4 years ago.

...

Cons:
1. If you are going to record voices, don't do little greeting generic ones. Go full bore.
2. It's Everquest 1, you lying fuckers.

Seriously, have they even played other MMOGs to understand some of the advances that have been made since 1998?

That is pretty much my summation of WOW right there. It's Velius era EQ in gameplay design and technology.

...

I felt like I was in a fully directed single player game. In fact, the intense directed experience frankly hurt my feelings of immersion a great deal. To me it had far too much direction.

If you are upset that WoW has nothing revolutionary, you haven't ever read anything about the game ever.  WoW is not intended to be revolutionary, it is squarely aimed at being "EQ done right."  No HAM system here, sorry.

It's a single player game for everyone until 20, and if you want it can be a single player game to the level cap.   WoWs legs entirely depend on the PvP (not implemented) high level group instances (which have been A+ so far, but there probably won't be enough to keep your attention forever after hitting the cap) and raid content (not implemented) so that's all a toss up right now.

Bonus quote:

There will always be the two extremes in pre-release MMOs, the doomsdayers and the fanbois. They will always exist whenever there is uncertainty in how the game is going to turn out for launch. What intrigues me about WoW that didn't intrigue me about other games:

- The doomsdayers are having to work harder at pointing out why WoW will suck. The stability issues are getting better than average reviews from beta, which is something that I've never really heard from other games. Largely, you have to look at the high level stuff as the question mark and PvP, but the low-level fun content is getting good PR. Frankly, the biggest hits are lodged at the community at large which in my opinion is could only be marginally worse than every other game's l33t squads. If you are tired of dumbasses in game, then don't bother with multiplayer.

- There is a non-NDA beta, which not only inspires confidence in the project but also the idea that you can get more than just one viewpoint on the game. Frankly, with that beta, inevitably you will find out both sides of the good and bad from both the extremes, and hopefully the middle ground. Open information is good and will only serve to middle the largely vocal hype/bash outliers with quantity. The only thing that bothers me is that PvP is tightly guarded info-wise, which in my book means it will suck. Past experience favors the doomsday group when something is not reported on much as a key feature, like PvP.

- The length of development seems to be a good sign that WoW isn't trying to be quick and dirty with the testing process. I don't get the sense of a "shove it out the door" policy yet, but that's not to say it won't show up. Certainly, it's really too early to bumpfuzzle Blizzard on their cycle, but it shows promise, and should things turn tide we would hear quickly.

I'm not licking my chops over the impending feast yet, but I am actually paying attention to some of the info coming out of this development. I won't be making any pre-orders or first month subs, but I do think this game has solid odds on being fun while not revoluationary. If that's the case I'll give it a whirl for a while.

 

[Pezzle]

Any of us can come up with a list of things we wish they did differently.  For now they kept it simple.  I see that as a good thing.  For me, this game is not the shitty grindfest that another game others insist on using as comparison is.  They have a few new features but the game does not take lots of chances.  Sure, we can fault them for that, but not really blame them with the money invested.  I am having fun.  You are not forced to play x hours a night to compete/experience content and that is healthy.  If all you want to do is raid raid raid this is not the game for you.

SWTOR will make money.  In 6 months?  Who knows?  Let's see how launch goes.

[Numtini]

That's some of the nicest stuff I said about WoW. You should find the really nasty stuff. (Still don't really like it, I play it off and on because of friends and that it has a raiding scene--which is probably what will happen with SWTOR.)

[Jherad]

Time will tell who's really confused here. I accept it could be me. We'll see.

I think if there's one thing that is shining through here, it is that you either 'get it' or you don't with SWTOR - or to use a differently biased phrasing, you're either bedazzled by the illusions or you aren't (and EVERY mmo relies on illusions). If it isn't working for you, and all you can focus on is the puppet's strings overhead, this isn't going to work for you.

There's a valid conversation to be had about the whys and wherefores, I'm sure.

[eldaec]

I'm losing track of who is arguing what is a good/bad thing here.

I don't think anyone disagrees that we're looking at WoW design, which is in turn not substantially different from EQ1 apart from the grind.

It could still be fun or not fun, however limited it is. Even WoW was fun for a few weeks.

[Falconeer]

Time will tell who's really confused here. I accept it could be me. We'll see.

I think if there's one thing that is shining through here, it is that you either 'get it' or you don't with SWTOR - or to use a differently biased phrasing, you're either bedazzled by the illusions or you aren't (and EVERY mmo relies on illusions). If it isn't working for you, and all you can focus on is the puppet's strings overhead, this isn't going to work for you.

There's a valid conversation to be had about the whys and wherefores, I'm sure.

To clarify: I am loving the stories and the cutscenes, and the companions. I am loving that illusion, to the point I don't care that my decisions are fake. That's why I am buying a game filled with suck.
I am totally annoyed by the cheap quality of everything else. I "get" the unique parts of SWTOR. But those unique parts get rarer and rarer the more you level up, and when they are over you are left with a sub-par (not just non-innovative. Sub-par) diku MMO. In fact, I think the content they have is perfect to create hype over a few beta weekends. Which is what I think it's happening. Aren't the first 20 levels, Tortage Island, what helped Age of Conan sell so many boxes?

[Nonentity]

I really could care less about the story. The first thing I did upon logging into the game for the first time in beta so many months ago was figure out how to turn on subtitles, so I could get through the dialog as quickly as possible. Voiceover has a place in games, MMOs is not one of them. 80-90% of my time in MMOs (hell, in most games nowadays) is spent in Mumble/Teamspeak.

Not that it being an MMO really matters, though, I skipped a majority of the voiceover stuff in Mass Effect 2 as well. Anytime a companion quest would advance I'd listen to that, and a few of the major storyline dialogs, but most of it was 'read ahead, press spacebar'. I'm finding myself doing the same thing.

I think the game BARELY has enough gameplay to support itself for a launch. I'm interested to see what they do post-launch.

[Merusk]

So I was randomly looking at some item lists.

Practically everything has bind on equip/pickup. Firstly, when do designers intend to get tired of this less-than-worthless mechanic? Secondly, surely it can't be on every damn thing - Darthhater's database has literally nothing without bind on whatever?

They will never, never get tired of it. I'm afraid it's here to stay in multiplayer games. If anything I expect it to expand even further as the cash shop mechanics creep into the greater MMOspace.   

The best you can hope for is bind to account instead of bind on equip.

[Pezzle]

I really could care less about the story. The first thing I did upon logging into the game for the first time in beta so many months ago was figure out how to turn on subtitles, so I could get through the dialog as quickly as possible. Voiceover has a place in games, MMOs is not one of them. 80-90% of my time in MMOs (hell, in most games nowadays) is spent in Mumble/Teamspeak.

Not that it being an MMO really matters, though, I skipped a majority of the voiceover stuff in Mass Effect 2 as well. Anytime a companion quest would advance I'd listen to that, and a few of the major storyline dialogs, but most of it was 'read ahead, press spacebar'. I'm finding myself doing the same thing.

I think the game BARELY has enough gameplay to support itself for a launch. I'm interested to see what they do post-launch.

So you are playing this game.. why?  You do not care about story, you do not want VA.  A good portion of the fun in the game is reactions to the various developments.  If you skip all of that then of course the game is going to be generic and boring.  Maybe that is your style, and that is fine, but it is not the fault of this game.

[Jherad]

I am totally annoyed by the cheap quality of everything else. I "get" the unique parts of SWTOR. But those unique parts get rarer and rarer the more you level up, and when they are over you are left with a sub-par (not just non-innovative. Sub-par) diku MMO. In fact, I think the content they have is perfect to create hype over a few beta weekends. Which is what I think it's happening. Aren't the first 20 levels, Tortage Island, what helped Age of Conan sell so many boxes?

Right, and here's the thing - I see the 'cheap quality' of some of the gameplay systems and... don't really care. It isn't totally annoying for me. I know that I'm going to get more than 2 months of fun out of this game. How much more? Well, that depends on what happens post release.

That's what I'm trying to get at - not that these flaws don't exist, they clearly do. But that the divide on like/don't like for this game is whether for you as an individual the (subjective) good disguises the bad enough. You're seeing puppet strings all the time, whereas I only see them if I look for them. My wife likes General Hospital for fuck's sake - I just see bad acting, terrible plotlines and flimsy scenery. I can't help it. If they can keep the content flowing, SWTOR may be a good (bad) soap opera.

[Paelos]

I really could care less about the story.

Then that's your answer. Don't bother going any further with your interest in this game. If you don't care about story, do not pass GO, and do not collect $200.

[Paelos]

I am totally annoyed by the cheap quality of everything else. I "get" the unique parts of SWTOR. But those unique parts get rarer and rarer the more you level up, and when they are over you are left with a sub-par (not just non-innovative. Sub-par) diku MMO. In fact, I think the content they have is perfect to create hype over a few beta weekends. Which is what I think it's happening. Aren't the first 20 levels, Tortage Island, what helped Age of Conan sell so many boxes?

Right, and here's the thing - I see the 'cheap quality' of some of the gameplay systems and... don't really care.

What specifically are you talking about in "cheap quality?" If this is a graphics issue, I'll tell anyone to go fuck themselves on that right now.

[VainEldritch]

I really could care less about the story.

Then that's your answer. Don't bother going any further with your interest in this game. If you don't care about story, do not pass GO, and do not collect $200.

Isn't the correct declamation: I really couldn't care less about the story?

[Amaron]

Quality is the light saber poking through my leku.

Wait.  What game ever solved this kind of clipping?   I see the kind of clipping in Skyrim and everyone is going gaga for the graphics quality of that game.

[01101010]

Meh. This game mezz'd me enough with the awe and fun in two beta weekends to get my money till I get tired of it. How long that'll be, not even I can tell - considering I like alts and playing different factions. Given those things, I can see getting 6 months out of this game, no problem at all. My Warcraft fuzzy comforter blanket was so stained and torn that it had to be thrown out and Warhammer, Aion, Rift, LotRO, blankets just didn't have the same feel or comfort level. Having slept with this SWTOR blanket, it has that old familiar feeling but without the wear and tear. Granted, it will have it soon enough... but for now, I'll enjoy the new.

[Mrbloodworth]

Interesting cycle you guys go through.

[Sand]

So I received my early access code from Best Buy today after running their customer service quest chain. I registered on the SWTOR site and turned in the code.
When and how do I receive the exact date of my early access? Has anyone gotten this info yet?

By the way you wouldnt believe what you have to do in order to get your early access code from Best Buy.
Didnt get it in the promised email?
No.
Go to customer service desk in store.
Employees reply: "We all pre-ordered as well and havent received codes either, if you figure it out come tell us as well!"
Go home and call customer service number.
"Sorry we dont have any information on that."

Obscure solution? Go on Best Buy's forums and create an account. Use that account to send a PM to the Gaming community management team. Receive code back within 48 hours.
That has got to be the weirdest, most obscure/hidden, means of dealing with customers I have ever encountered.
But I got my code!  

[Paelos]

From what I understand, early access times are staggered based on when you registered you pre-order code.

[01101010]

From what I understand, early access times are staggered based on when you registered you pre-order code.

Yes but they have not released those dates just yet. That's the issue. We know they are staggered, and pretty sure those who ordered back during the summer are in on the 15th, but what about those ordering in the last 2 weeks or next 2 weeks?

[taolurker]

See, I asked this a bunch of pages back, and will ask it again: 
For those of you playing at release or with lots of beta time -> What do you see this game being a month or two after release? How much gameplay does this really equate to?

I honestly don't see any value for a subscription or a full price box, the monthly sub just seems wasted and I can't see this game going without a price drop that long either. I like Bioware cut-scenes and stories just fine, and played through DA:O maybe 3-4 times from scratch, but I was done with that game before a full month was up. I just don't understand where the luv is coming from. The three stories I did experience on the beta weekend also didn't make me want to play more (in fact it was decidedly the opposite, I wanted to play less because it was a grind fest of cut-scenes).

I also tend to agree with Falc about the cheap quality, and I'd say cheap more because they didn't include any innovations I'd expect from an MMO (like a functional UI or reasonably normal animations). I thought the game was fun, but not fun enough to make me want to pay full price, and definitely not to the point that they'd get an amount monthly from me.

[Paelos]

Most likely I have one max level character tank that runs my guildmates through stuff, a ranged dpser that I'm slowly working on, and a low level healer that I keep promising myself I will get to max level ONE DAY™

[Ingmar]

I expect to play for years, personally. Sure, maybe there is some lurking disaster, or maybe GW2 will be so good I can't not play it or something. But I doubt it. The companion thing is a huge, huge deal for me. I expect to spend endless hours gearing them up, etc.

[Sky]

I just don't understand where the luv is coming from. The three stories I did experience on the beta weekend also didn't make me want to play more (in fact it was decidedly the opposite, I wanted to play less because it was a grind fest of cut-scenes).

Ok?

[Amaron]

I honestly don't see any value for a subscription or a full price box, the monthly sub just seems wasted and I can't see this game going without a price drop that long either.

If you like it then it's god damn cheap no matter how you look at it.   These days getting a good single player game that lasts more than ~15 hours is a victory.    I feel like Bioware is just flat out letting me rob them at this price.

[kildorn]

The thing about companions is tha... okay, I can't reply to Ingmar with THAT BIRD staring at me.

[Dark_MadMax]

I honestly don't see any value for a subscription or a full price box, the monthly sub just seems wasted and I can't see this game going without a price drop that long either. I like Bioware cut-scenes and stories just fine, and played through DA:O maybe 3-4 times from scratch, but I was done with that game before a full month was up. I just don't understand where the luv is coming from. The three stories I did experience on the beta weekend also didn't make me want to play more (in fact it was decidedly the opposite, I wanted to play less because it was a grind fest of cut-scenes).

This game has easily 2 times more content than DA:O. IF you dont want play full prices - up to you, I am sure it will drop in 3-6 months.I

[Paelos]

I still don't see much response in the way of cheap quality argument. The animations? I don't really see anything out of place there or static or wooden. I was pissed about the flying oil tank thing but I haven't seen any in beta.

The UI? That will be modded. That's like complaining that Skyrim is a bad game because the UI sucks.

[Merusk]

So I received my early access code from Best Buy today after running their customer service quest chain. I registered on the SWTOR site and turned in the code.
When and how do I receive the exact date of my early access? Has anyone gotten this info yet?

By the way you wouldnt believe what you have to do in order to get your early access code from Best Buy.
Didnt get it in the promised email?
No.
Go to customer service desk in store.
Employees reply: "We all pre-ordered as well and havent received codes either, if you figure it out come tell us as well!"
Go home and call customer service number.
"Sorry we dont have any information on that."

Obscure solution? Go on Best Buy's forums and create an account. Use that account to send a PM to the Gaming community management team. Receive code back within 48 hours.
That has got to be the weirdest, most obscure/hidden, means of dealing with customers I have ever encountered.
But I got my code!  

They're probably not monitoring codes anymore after the initial rush.  When preorders opened a few months back I bought from BB as well and got my code within 24 hours.

See, I asked this a bunch of pages back, and will ask it again:  
For those of you playing at release or with lots of beta time -> What do you see this game being a month or two after release? How much gameplay does this really equate to?

It's all about fun for me.  I'm enjoying the game and I'm tired of WoW's bullshit. Still love the game mechanics and world but the dev team has gotten on my last nerve and I'm done with them.  I had the same reaction with EQ when I finally split 9 months before WoW was available.  ( I filled the time with CoH and some shooters.)

None of the other MMOs appeal to me in terms of setting and gameplay and I like having at least one game to putter around in.   TOR: from what I saw in this past weekend's beta, keeps enough of WoW's gameplay to keep me interested.  Do I miss some of the convenience features? Yes.  We'll see if they add them in, I'm enough of a realist and have worked on enough projects myself to understand you can't shove EVERY feature in at release.  If they're able to keep adding, great.  If not I'll find someplace else to spend my cash.

You're questioning value, which is subjective to everyone.  You don't see the value in it.  Great, stop worrying about it or what other people think, ignore it and come back to check it out in a year or so if you find yourself wondering again.   You know what it is, you're not missing anything or being left out by not participating.

Using myself as an example; I've regretted buying many of the games other folks here go ga-ga over. TES is a great example of this.  I couldn't  can't stand Morrowind or Oblivion and got bored with both inside of 2 hours.  I'm not getting sucked in by the same hype Skyrim is getting that those two had.   It's the same cycle.

On the other hand, Civ V is panned here.  I've had a lot of fun with it.  I think there's some weak points but over-all I like it as a direction to take the series (just fix the Gold is King problem) and want to see what will happen with it in terms of expansions.


As far as the "cheap quality" Hey, guess what, it's stylized just like WoW was.  You just don't like the style.  WoW has a lot of the same complaints.  Frankly I find the photo realistic trend of MW et al bullshit that caters to a much too-small portion of the population and feeding the graphics whore population has caused a lot of stagnation elsewhere for far too long.  Less is more.