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Topic: Is this game dead or? (Read 413794 times)
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tazelbain
Terracotta Army
Posts: 6603
tazelbain
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In good large scale pvp, the map needs be larger than gamer's ability to organize. EvE works in a lots ways just because the map is an order of magnitude larger than players can organize. SB failed a lot because summoning shrunk the world dramatically. Because the maps in GW 2 are small enough that every meaningful objective is at most 7 mins from each other, its not particularly hard to cover that in a single player org structure.
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"Me am play gods"
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Nevermore
Terracotta Army
Posts: 4740
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If I remember correctly, I think overall the DAoC frontiers were larger than the WvW zones in GW2, but that didn't stop the zerging in DAoC.
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Over and out.
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zumu
Terracotta Army
Posts: 25
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Not from what I've seen of Tier 1 play, which seems to be forming up as large a zerg as possible and playing in literally the most boring way imaginable (super cautious siege creeping, little roaming etc...)
This is why I quit the game. Imho it's the way they handle wxp that causes this. It needs to get split up like in DAoC, instead of everyone who remotely participated in a kill/capture getting full credit. I can forgive a lot of the games faults (glacial balancing, ascended grinding, necessary PvE... etc.), but the zerg fest pretty much eliminated the only game mode I enjoyed (solo/gank squad roaming). All that dead horse kicking aside, I'm thinking about giving it another go. Yay, cognitive dissonance. What classes do you think are best for the zerg? Necro? Engi?
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amiable
Terracotta Army
Posts: 2126
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What classes do you think are best for the zerg? Necro? Engi?
Negatory on the engy (which is great for roaming). Current meta is 30 hammer warriors 15 guardians 10 well necros with unblockable marks and a couple mesmers for veils.
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Fordel
Terracotta Army
Posts: 8306
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WXP has nothing to do with force size. Map zergs existed before WXP even existed.
Don't forget the staff ele's for the water fields :P
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and the gate is like I TOO AM CAPABLE OF SPEECH
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zumu
Terracotta Army
Posts: 25
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Map zergs existed before WXP even existed.
Don't forget the staff ele's for the water fields :P
True, but as someone who exclusively roamed WvW for the first 8ish months of this game's release, I will tell you from experience that zergs are both larger and more numerous than pre-wxp. Mind you I haven't played in a few months, so I'm talking out of my ass a little here, but I think it holds. My main was an ele. I might give it another shot, but it will be hard for me to come to terms with no longer being invincible. Current meta is 30 hammer warriors 15 guardians 10 well necros with unblockable marks and a couple mesmers for veils.
What server? Or all servers? (I'm JQ)
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tazelbain
Terracotta Army
Posts: 6603
tazelbain
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If I remember correctly, I think overall the DAoC frontiers were larger than the WvW zones in GW2, but that didn't stop the zerging in DAoC.
Still not even close to being to large enough and DAoC had so few objectives that situation was worse since you could ignore 95% of the battlefield
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"Me am play gods"
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zumu
Terracotta Army
Posts: 25
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Another problem with DAoC was that the best way to advance your character (via RA's) was to ignore map objectives and just gank.
Whereas, with GW2 map objectives > ganking as far as wxp is concerned.
Maybe in 10 years the next open-world PvPvP game will strike a balance [sigh]
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Fordel
Terracotta Army
Posts: 8306
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JQ doesn't give a shit what you run as long as you don't rallybot. JQ is much more concerned with you getting on TeamSpeak and working with everyone else then any kind of class/spec.
Individual guilds may have their own comps when they run without a pin. Especially if they go do a organized GvG or something.
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and the gate is like I TOO AM CAPABLE OF SPEECH
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Sjofn
Terracotta Army
Posts: 8286
Truckasaurus Hands
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Yeah, JQ's pretty accepting of any and all snowflakes in its zergs. As long as you don't explode instantly when someone glances your way, you're good (and even then, they probably won't give you too much shit beyond "you should probably swap your gear around there, champ.").
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God Save the Horn Players
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Rasix
Moderator
Posts: 15024
I am the harbinger of your doom!
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Sometimes on JQ (at least with predominately SG groups), we have to run different combat strats just because we lack the numbers for an effective war/guard tank line. You can't go spear head to spear head when SoR has a group consisting of 50% guardians spamming staff 1. SoR just has a lot of guardians in general it seems. Hell, we've got our fair share of rangers. EB seems to avoid that problem; I swear it gives queue preference to anyone in heavy armor.
Roaming in t1 shouldn't be that bad, although the number of people participating is going to make certain aspects more difficult. Granted, I don't solo/small group roam a lot. It's just your going to run into that zerg, which you should obviously keep an eye out for and just avoid like the plague. You're going to have havoc groups running around. These could be 5-10 guys that will go out of their way to kill you. Plus, the roaming is going to be more small 3-4 person groups instead of just the soloer. The atomic level is going to be similar, I'd imagine. Same trolly ass builds, same amount of annoying rogues/eng/warriors.
Next week's matchup should be interesting. Demoralized server v. demoralized server. Hopefully we can keep our shit together a bit better this time.
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-Rasix
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Fordel
Terracotta Army
Posts: 8306
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Week long karma train to level alts and finish achievements
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and the gate is like I TOO AM CAPABLE OF SPEECH
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amiable
Terracotta Army
Posts: 2126
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Mag tends to run a lot of 10-15 man havoc squads, even when we do manage to fully queue a server. We were able to hold all our territory in EBG last night while being double-teamed by SoR and TC (at least when I was on) and hold SM and random keeps much of the time as well. Of course we lose itall around 2 am EST when our night crew (the NPC guards) comes online.
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murdoc
Terracotta Army
Posts: 3036
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There's days I sorta regret following Bat Country (LOL) to a server that ended up being in the bottom Tier, but overall I'm pretty happy not to having to deal with queues and usually only a single zerg or two. It's like you guys are playing a completely different WvW game.
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Have you tried the internet? It's made out of millions of people missing the point of everything and then getting angry about it
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MediumHigh
Terracotta Army
Posts: 1983
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Coming from the old Guild Wars 1 mentality, one of the best inventions from that franchise was heroes and henchmen. Not as good as real players no, but you can have 4 (and now 7) to an active player and use them to do missions and even do some PVP maps/game modes. Why not bring the concept to WvW where you can assign henchmen to be your night/off hour crew, make it a resource gathering game. Get money => Buy henchmen for the hour(s) => Leave your keep partially protected. Hell make a RTS style minigame where one player manage the henchmen crew or crew(s) against invaders.
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tazelbain
Terracotta Army
Posts: 6603
tazelbain
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There's days I sorta regret following Bat Country (LOL) to a server that ended up being in the bottom Tier, but overall I'm pretty happy not to having to deal with queues and usually only a single zerg or two. It's like you guys are playing a completely different WvW game.
With the mass migrations nobody could have know how things would have turned out a year later.
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"Me am play gods"
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Threash
Terracotta Army
Posts: 9171
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Coming from the old Guild Wars 1 mentality, one of the best inventions from that franchise was heroes and henchmen. Not as good as real players no
What are you talking about, my heroes from GW1 were far superior to any actual player i have ever played with.
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I am the .00000001428%
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MediumHigh
Terracotta Army
Posts: 1983
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Coming from the old Guild Wars 1 mentality, one of the best inventions from that franchise was heroes and henchmen. Not as good as real players no
What are you talking about, my heroes from GW1 were far superior to any actual player i have ever played with. Sadly more true than not true
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Fordel
Terracotta Army
Posts: 8306
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Mag tends to run a lot of 10-15 man havoc squads, even when we do manage to fully queue a server. We were able to hold all our territory in EBG last night while being double-teamed by SoR and TC (at least when I was on) and hold SM and random keeps much of the time as well. Of course we lose itall around 2 am EST when our night crew (the NPC guards) comes online.
EBG is strange strange beast on the T1's. Organized guild groups can almost never actually get their groups into EBG due to queues and mostly ignore them. Which turns EB into this permanent state of pug-train with it's own sub culture and it's own EB only commanders, which have to lead in a significant different and amusing ways. You'll have commanders in there who are perfectly multilingual and can speak like 2-3+ languages. Then you'll have commanders that say nothing at all and simply lead through pin movements. -edit- We are never going to see hero's and henchmen in GW2. GW2's AI is SIGNIFICANTLY worse then GW1's. Comically so.
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and the gate is like I TOO AM CAPABLE OF SPEECH
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Sjofn
Terracotta Army
Posts: 8286
Truckasaurus Hands
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Mag tends to run a lot of 10-15 man havoc squads, even when we do manage to fully queue a server. We were able to hold all our territory in EBG last night while being double-teamed by SoR and TC (at least when I was on) and hold SM and random keeps much of the time as well. Of course we lose itall around 2 am EST when our night crew (the NPC guards) comes online.
That's interesting, given the huge amount of "waaah 10-15 man squaaaads" whining the Mag forum warriors were doing. To hear them tell it, Mag only runs around in groups of one. Two if they're feeling zergy. I know it was likely 90% trolling, but it's still kinda funny.
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God Save the Horn Players
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Lantyssa
Terracotta Army
Posts: 20848
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What are you talking about, my heroes from GW1 were far superior to any actual player i have ever played with.
My heroes were far superior to ME. That's why I liked them. I could kit them out so I could handle things I'd never be able to do on my own. Heals, buffs, interrupts, minions? Thanks guys!
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Hahahaha! I'm really good at this!
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amiable
Terracotta Army
Posts: 2126
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Mag tends to run a lot of 10-15 man havoc squads, even when we do manage to fully queue a server. We were able to hold all our territory in EBG last night while being double-teamed by SoR and TC (at least when I was on) and hold SM and random keeps much of the time as well. Of course we lose itall around 2 am EST when our night crew (the NPC guards) comes online.
That's interesting, given the huge amount of "waaah 10-15 man squaaaads" whining the Mag forum warriors were doing. To hear them tell it, Mag only runs around in groups of one. Two if they're feeling zergy. I know it was likely 90% trolling, but it's still kinda funny. Oh just ignore the obvious trolls. If folks want to 1v1 they should play sPvP.
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Crumbs
Terracotta Army
Posts: 588
Likes: Politics, SWTOR, and CHINAJOY. SO MUCH CHINAJOY.
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Seriously, what a weird way to approach a game like GW2. It's like showing up to a baseball game with a basketball. "Hey man, we're playing basketball on this baseball field because baseball is for baddies."
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MediumHigh
Terracotta Army
Posts: 1983
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Meh its like bring shovels to the beach when everyone else is stacking seashells.
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Fordel
Terracotta Army
Posts: 8306
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It's neither of those things, it's just people who hate losing, so they make up their own win condition that is immensely stacked in their favor.
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and the gate is like I TOO AM CAPABLE OF SPEECH
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amiable
Terracotta Army
Posts: 2126
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It's neither of those things, it's just people who hate losing, so they make up their own win condition that is immensely stacked in their favor.
Meh, I agree to an extent but I would argue that ANET doesn't like Zerg-wars and time-zone wars play very much either, because they understand it is boring and detrimental to keeping players. They just haven't found out a way to deal with it. (the best way would be AOE's, but that is a programming limitation because allowing unlimited AOE's apparently causes too much server strain).
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Rasix
Moderator
Posts: 15024
I am the harbinger of your doom!
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Zerg bust. You claim to do it, so do it. That term gets thrown around a lot, but I've not really seen it happen much in practice. I've seen us kinda do it, but not against t1 reliably. And when it happens, it's mostly plowing into a bunch of morons PVD'ing and not checking their rear.
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-Rasix
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MediumHigh
Terracotta Army
Posts: 1983
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Time-Zone wars yes. Zerg wars? Honestly at this point I argue that the people complaining about it are merely a very vocal minority. The casuals (the meat of RVR type games) don't give a shit about time zone wars or mega zergs, they just don't want to be herded into mass deaths. The serious gamers get organized and generally favor "skirmish" style warfare, 8v8, 15v15, and generally hate the time-zone wars. Then their is the guys inbetween, casual enough to attract large groups of gamers, but serious enough to organize 30+ players for an objective. A large enough map allows for all of these types of players to coexist. And their all needed to make the game dynamic and fun. Oh and even sides, which kills the casuals, the hardcore, and the inbetweeners all the same.
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Fordel
Terracotta Army
Posts: 8306
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It's neither of those things, it's just people who hate losing, so they make up their own win condition that is immensely stacked in their favor.
Meh, I agree to an extent but I would argue that ANET doesn't like Zerg-wars and time-zone wars play very much either, because they understand it is boring and detrimental to keeping players. They just haven't found out a way to deal with it. (the best way would be AOE's, but that is a programming limitation because allowing unlimited AOE's apparently causes too much server strain). No, Zerging keeps players, since it's inclusive and low maintenance on the players part. Anyone can just hop onto a zerg and have a good time. PvP games die when they cannibalize their own playerbase by forcing them into strict class/group comps and/or demand the top tier of grind to stay relevant. What ANET wants is for the casual once in awhile PvP'er to jump onto a zerg and have a big epic battle and then fuck off and never ever think about actual mechanical balance in WvW. They also want the super tight knit hardcore PvP'er to go play SPvP where everyone is on a even playing field and they can showcase all that elite top tier skill for their ESPORTS dreams. What ANET somehow failed to figure out, is that WvW people are just as hardcore as anyone else and will game their system just like any other aspect of the game. They also failed to realize the number of people that want actual fair fights on even playing fields is very small and only shrinks as players find out they aren't as awesome as they think they are at the video game and go and filter into another avenue of the game where they can stack their deck. The day ANET 'breaks' zergs, is the day WvW just dies.
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and the gate is like I TOO AM CAPABLE OF SPEECH
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MediumHigh
Terracotta Army
Posts: 1983
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Actually the "fair fight" people are quite large. Wonder why so many people are running around in 8 mans and going out of their way to GvG's? Well its because their SPVP model is garbage. Its (capture point) a shit play mode no one wants to play. If they ever introduce team death match a lot of hardcore guilds would simply play that and us WvW as their casual play ground. Anet tried to shove a gamemode no one wants to play on a playerbase and it didn't work so everyone is just WvW till Anet gets their shit together.
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Fordel
Terracotta Army
Posts: 8306
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People will play TDM for a month, get rolled and then it will be the same little subset of the player base using it that currently use the Capture and Hold maps. Then someone will bitch what they really need is a CTF map! People run little gank squads so they can claim they are awesome when they win a fight, and that they were zerged/cheesed when they lose. It's the same thing as the random solo duelist guy, just scaled up a little bit. The solo guys hates the duo's+, the duo's hate the 5 mans, the 5 mans hate the gank squads, the gank squads hate the guild groups, the guild groups hate the map zergs and the map zergs bitch that the enemy map zerg has more people... somehow. Like, how many honest to goodness GvG's actually happen in any given matchup week? Those guys are very much in the minority.
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and the gate is like I TOO AM CAPABLE OF SPEECH
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Ingmar
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Posts: 19280
Auto Assault Affectionado
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Those "so many" people 8v8ing are a tiny fraction of the people in the frontier at any given time.
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The Transcendent One: AH... THE ROGUE CONSTRUCT. Nordom: Sense of closure: imminent.
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MediumHigh
Terracotta Army
Posts: 1983
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People will play TDM for a month, get rolled and then it will be the same little subset of the player base using it that currently use the Capture and Hold maps. Then someone will bitch what they really need is a CTF map! People run little gank squads so they can claim they are awesome when they win a fight, and that they were zerged/cheesed when they lose. It's the same thing as the random solo duelist guy, just scaled up a little bit. The solo guys hates the duo's+, the duo's hate the 5 mans, the 5 mans hate the gank squads, the gank squads hate the guild groups, the guild groups hate the map zergs and the map zergs bitch that the enemy map zerg has more people... somehow. Like, how many honest to goodness GvG's actually happen in any given matchup week? Those guys are very much in the minority. Mostly because the way the que works doesn't allow everybody who wants to do it to do it (besides WvW is very limiting by its nature). TDM is to Guild Wars as Summoners Rift is to League of Legends. People will rage, and gripe about classes, feeders, etc, etc, but ultimately if Riot told everyone they had to play Twisted Treeline or Dominion, we'd have a HON sub-forum instead of a LoL sub-forum. A crapton of people just play the game for the pve and transition into WvW, which for Anet is working as intended. Anyone JUST playing for pvp is left with... "sports"pvp or hurling yourself into the zerg.
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Rasix
Moderator
Posts: 15024
I am the harbinger of your doom!
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I hate to leave free achievement points on the table (especially nearing 5000), but are all fractals as assy as this story one? This isn't DAoC pve bad, but this stuff isn't good either.
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-Rasix
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kildorn
Terracotta Army
Posts: 5014
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No, this story thing is just dumb and punishing to pugs. Some of the fractals have the same issue (being coordination based, and thus vulnerable to pickup groups going every which way) which is why Fractals aren't really that popular to pug.
I took a stab at a pickup for the story, and promptly said fuck it when people couldn't even stick together during a fight, and two members would just wander the fuck off and aggro more shit and complain they had no help killing it since everyone else was still fighting the last pack of shit.
On the up side: I've had a sudden revival of interest in my mesmer, which has been a load of fun.
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