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schild
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Reply #35 on: July 20, 2006, 07:18:13 AM

The part where you called it a superior package. It's not. Technically and usefully speaking it's not. It's not so much overprized as hoisted up by the vocal minority. Apple users are like the forum members in an MMORPG.

Edit: I'm not saying that's a bad thing, I'm just saying it's the reality of it. When Word documents, PDFs, and such stop being the standard and Apple can (cost) effectively design their computers, things might change. But not til then. For now it's by art fags for art fags.

Edit 2: Remember, I've owned 2 Powerbooks and multiple desktops. I love Macs, but useful they are not. They're like a self-inflicted punishment for my daily work (and for most peoples). If I bought a Mac now it would be so I'm not distracted by the rest of the computer while trying to get something done. It's hip to use a Mac. Always has been. But even while I was a diehard Mac user (read: All during the windows 3.1 til Windows 98 SE days), it was never very effective to be a Mac user.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2006, 07:23:19 AM by schild »
Strazos
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Reply #36 on: July 20, 2006, 07:20:51 AM

That means you're getting an Apple, right?  evil

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Tebonas
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Reply #37 on: July 20, 2006, 08:04:19 AM

Quote
If I bought a Mac now it would be so I'm not distracted by the rest of the computer while trying to get something done

But wasn't that what I said?
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Reply #38 on: July 20, 2006, 08:09:41 AM

You said it as a good thing. I said it as a joke. Apologies, I thought about making it more clear, but I'd already edited the post twice.

I can't think of a bigger waste of money than a Mac at this point in time. Maybe, one day, they'll become worthwhile. But now? Neg. The recommendation is borderline insane.

You want a work computer? Buy a Dell.
You want a play computer? Buy a Dell.
You want a gaming laptop? Buy a Dell.
You want a machine that increases the length of your epeen? Buy a Alienware Dell.

It's not even cost effective to build your own computer. Even at the end of doing that, if you look at the market at all, you'll buy a Dell monitor (or maybe that sweet sweet new Gateway one - [it's about 5 months old now methinks]). And then you'll notice the rest of Dell's equipment and realize you should've done that instead of building it yourself.

I don't like the market being like this. But that's the way it is. Though, this winter when I buy my new machine I'll probably look somewhere else. Size is more important to me than raw power and Dell ain't making any tiny machines. None that are useful anyway. My current 4 year old Shuttle runs everything out there admirably except for Doom 3 (but then, it ran Prey just fine). I really hope Dell comes out with a small formfactor gaming machine, even if it's a cube with a buldge to house the video cards and another set of fans.
Strazos
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Reply #39 on: July 20, 2006, 08:17:16 AM

I've known too many people, personally, who've had problems with the shitty parts Dell uses. Self-built all the way, baby.

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stray
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Reply #40 on: July 20, 2006, 08:30:13 AM

Dell both impressed me and pissed me off for the choice of music in their new commercials. No one is supposed to know about the Elevators. Where the fuck did they get that from?

I can never listen to that song again --- and it's a great fucking song. This goes far beyond Zep or the Who being used in car commercials. Those songs sucked anyways.

[edit]

Oh yeah, there's now very little reason to not get a Mac laptop these days.
schild
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Reply #41 on: July 20, 2006, 08:44:05 AM

I've known too many people, personally, who've had problems with the shitty parts Dell uses. Self-built all the way, baby.

Shitty parts? What in the holy hell are you talking about? Seriously. Where do you get that shit from?
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Reply #42 on: July 20, 2006, 09:32:25 AM

Dell both impressed me and pissed me off for the choice of music in their new commercials. No one is supposed to know about the Elevators. Where the fuck did they get that from?

I can never listen to that song again --- and it's a great fucking song. This goes far beyond Zep or the Who being used in car commercials. Those songs sucked anyways.

[edit]

Oh yeah, there's now very little reason to not get a Mac laptop these days.


What's that song called? I've been dying to know for a long time but I could never figure it out. Using Baba O'Riley in like three different commercials really pissed me off, that was my favorite song.
Sky
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Reply #43 on: July 20, 2006, 09:43:53 AM

Price isn't everything. Some people like to build their own machines. I'll always build my own pc for gaming at home. I'll build as many as I can at work, but at work cost is sometimes a factor, as is form factor, so I buy some Dells (the ultra small form factor rocks for low end machines). I'm not sure I'd be saving money buying an XPS over building my own pc, that's never been the case in the history of computing.

But honestly, for staff computers (I've said this before), Windows is a total hassle and OSX is not. Whether it be the security or ease-of-use, the simplicity or the imaging, not having to dick around with keys or authorizing. I was die-hard for windows before I worked here (and Mac was at OS9, which totally sucked imo), but after running these machines for a few years, there's really no reason to run windows unless I want more work, in setup, maintenance and troubleshooting.

I'll allow that Dell makes great monitors, I am looking at a 2007fpw hooked to this intel mini that also runs windows goddamned fast (if I ever had a need to boot into windows, which I don't).
Quote
When Word documents, PDFs, and such stop being the standard and Apple can (cost) effectively design their computers, things might change.
What does that even mean? We use Office on both windows and macs here seamlessly, and OSX is WAY better with PDFs, you can create them right in the OS (though you'd have to have Acrobat to do more advanced stuff, but there's mac versions of all that, too).

The ONLY thing windows does better is games. Period. And that's only because of the directx API. If I never had to putz around with a registry again or clean up some sloppy installation or dll, I wouldn't lose sleep. Windows sucks. I could give a shit about being trendy, I like computers that make sense, and that's a computer running OSX. I'm no mac zealot, just blindly spewing rhetoric from the pulpit, there are reasons to buy macs, there are reasons to DIY, there are reasons to buy a Dell. Seems to me the ignorance is coming from the antimac folks.

WindiaN
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Reply #44 on: July 20, 2006, 09:59:00 AM

uhh the speed/hardware for the money? If you can't deal with windows, run linux.
stray
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Reply #45 on: July 20, 2006, 10:34:03 AM

What's that song called? I've been dying to know for a long time but I could never figure it out. Using Baba O'Riley in like three different commercials really pissed me off, that was my favorite song.

You're Gonna Miss Me - 13th Floor Elevators

Local psychedelic/proto punk band from the 60's. Granted, Dell's from the South Texas area too, and that was probably the band's closest thing to a hit. Still surprises me that some marketer decided to use it though.
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Reply #46 on: July 20, 2006, 10:45:11 AM

Goddamn you people...  NDA

Tuned in, immediately get to watch cringey Ubisoft talking head offering her deepest sympathies to the families impacted by the Orlando shooting while flanked by a man in a giraffe suit and some sort of "horrifically garish neon costumes through the ages" exhibit or something.  We need to stop this fucking planet right now and sort some shit out. -Kail
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Reply #47 on: July 20, 2006, 10:59:42 AM

Goddamn you people...  NDA

I'm confused. What? Are you the marketer in question? If so, cool choice. Also: You're a bastard.
WindiaN
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Reply #48 on: July 20, 2006, 11:01:21 AM

that link gonna be up for a few hours so I can download when i get home?

Edit: thanks a lot by the way
stray
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Reply #49 on: July 20, 2006, 11:03:23 AM

Yeah, I'll keep it there.

* Sorry for the derail, folks *
Surlyboi
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Reply #50 on: July 20, 2006, 11:08:07 AM

Not a marketer, but Uncle Steve is my boss.

And, I've been called worse things than a bastard in the last five minutes or so...  evil
« Last Edit: July 20, 2006, 11:54:30 AM by Surlyboi »

Tuned in, immediately get to watch cringey Ubisoft talking head offering her deepest sympathies to the families impacted by the Orlando shooting while flanked by a man in a giraffe suit and some sort of "horrifically garish neon costumes through the ages" exhibit or something.  We need to stop this fucking planet right now and sort some shit out. -Kail
Engels
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Reply #51 on: July 20, 2006, 11:21:58 AM

I wonder if Apple is ever going to license their OS for PC machines. From the sounds of it, OS X is a better solution for professional environments than Windows, and aside from that, their hardware is already a middle-of-the-road PC.

I should get back to nature, too.  You know, like going to a shop for groceries instead of the computer.  Maybe a condo in the woods that doesn't even have a health club or restaurant attached.  Buy a car with only two cup holders or something. -Signe

I LIKE being bounced around by Tonkors. - Lantyssa

Babies shooting themselves in the head is the state bird of West Virginia. - schild
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Reply #52 on: July 20, 2006, 11:41:06 AM

Price isn't everything. Some people like to build their own machines. I'll always build my own pc for gaming at home. I'll build as many as I can at work, but at work cost is sometimes a factor, as is form factor, so I buy some Dells (the ultra small form factor rocks for low end machines). I'm not sure I'd be saving money buying an XPS over building my own pc, that's never been the case in the history of computing.

But honestly, for staff computers (I've said this before), Windows is a total hassle and OSX is not. Whether it be the security or ease-of-use, the simplicity or the imaging, not having to dick around with keys or authorizing. I was die-hard for windows before I worked here (and Mac was at OS9, which totally sucked imo), but after running these machines for a few years, there's really no reason to run windows unless I want more work, in setup, maintenance and troubleshooting.

I'll allow that Dell makes great monitors, I am looking at a 2007fpw hooked to this intel mini that also runs windows goddamned fast (if I ever had a need to boot into windows, which I don't).
Quote
When Word documents, PDFs, and such stop being the standard and Apple can (cost) effectively design their computers, things might change.
What does that even mean? We use Office on both windows and macs here seamlessly, and OSX is WAY better with PDFs, you can create them right in the OS (though you'd have to have Acrobat to do more advanced stuff, but there's mac versions of all that, too).

The ONLY thing windows does better is games. Period. And that's only because of the directx API. If I never had to putz around with a registry again or clean up some sloppy installation or dll, I wouldn't lose sleep. Windows sucks. I could give a shit about being trendy, I like computers that make sense, and that's a computer running OSX. I'm no mac zealot, just blindly spewing rhetoric from the pulpit, there are reasons to buy macs, there are reasons to DIY, there are reasons to buy a Dell. Seems to me the ignorance is coming from the antimac folks.

Sky, you summed up my thoughts on Mac vs PC better than I could myself.

As to Dells, they are not great computers by any streach. You can quote specs all you want, but I am going by what I have seen first hand. I built my own PC with good hardware, and my best friend bought a Dell, we have very close to the same specs, but when it comes to intensive games, my computer blows his away.
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Reply #53 on: July 20, 2006, 11:47:57 AM

An ultra small form factor Dell runs about $300-400 more than an intel mini, has a Pentium D vs Core Duo, and is around 300% larger. Just sayin'.

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Reply #54 on: July 20, 2006, 02:43:03 PM

I've known too many people, personally, who've had problems with the shitty parts Dell uses. Self-built all the way, baby.

Shitty parts? What in the holy hell are you talking about? Seriously. Where do you get that shit from?

No-name, proprietary parts.

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Reply #55 on: July 20, 2006, 05:05:42 PM

An ultra small form factor Dell runs about $300-400 more than an intel mini, has a Pentium D vs Core Duo, and is around 300% larger. Just sayin'.

Dell does not have a machine comparable to the Mac Mini. That's not an ultra small form factor Dell. Despite marketing speak. I wouldn't even call my Shuttle Ultra small form factor.
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Reply #56 on: July 20, 2006, 05:12:33 PM

I've known too many people, personally, who've had problems with the shitty parts Dell uses. Self-built all the way, baby.
Shitty parts? What in the holy hell are you talking about? Seriously. Where do you get that shit from?
No-name, proprietary parts.
O RLY? Like which? Which part is proprietary? I've yet to see a proprietary part in a Dell in the last few years.
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Reply #57 on: July 20, 2006, 05:42:02 PM

Dells sometimes have "proprietary" components that are really just someone else's hardware with a Dell logo stuck on the front.  For example, their printers are usually Lexmarks with a different label, the idea being that since no store sells Dell printer cartridgers, you have to order them from dell.com at a premium. 

Of course, once you figure out what Lexmark printer your Dell printer really is, you just buy the Lexmark cartridge (or the generic equivalent) and you're good to go.

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Reply #58 on: July 20, 2006, 06:40:56 PM

O RLY? Like which? Which part is proprietary? I've yet to see a proprietary part in a Dell in the last few years.

Except for the CPU and HDD and video card...all of it? This may not hold true with the new XPS/Alienware rigs though.

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Reply #59 on: July 20, 2006, 07:20:56 PM

O RLY? Like which? Which part is proprietary? I've yet to see a proprietary part in a Dell in the last few years.
Except for the CPU and HDD and video card...all of it? This may not hold true with the new XPS/Alienware rigs though.
There's a difference between proprietary and custom made. The only proprietary thing I can think of is that funky power supply connector coming from some of their power supplies and going to a custom connector on some of their motherboards. They used to also have the annoying habit of using RDRAM (Rambus RAM) when nobody else was using it which made swapping RAM around multiple machines problematic.
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Reply #60 on: July 20, 2006, 07:30:20 PM

O RLY? Like which? Which part is proprietary? I've yet to see a proprietary part in a Dell in the last few years.
Except for the CPU and HDD and video card...all of it? This may not hold true with the new XPS/Alienware rigs though.
There's a difference between proprietary and custom made. The only proprietary thing I can think of is that funky power supply connector coming from some of their power supplies and going to a custom connector on some of their motherboards. They used to also have the annoying habit of using RDRAM (Rambus RAM) when nobody else was using it which made swapping RAM around multiple machines problematic.


Even the proprietary power supply hasn't been produced in over 6 years. None of Dell's stuff is proprietary and hasn't been for a while now. The motherboard? Intel chipset, probably even made by intel, not dell. The nic card? Intel, most likely. The sound? a common on-board sound chipset found on any number of motherboards. The CMOS/BIOS? Probably Award or Phoenix, again, nothing to do with Dell.

Dell assembles machines. The only thing that's properly Dells is the casing and fan/cooling systems that go with them, which, admittedly, are very good. But emminently replaceable.

I should get back to nature, too.  You know, like going to a shop for groceries instead of the computer.  Maybe a condo in the woods that doesn't even have a health club or restaurant attached.  Buy a car with only two cup holders or something. -Signe

I LIKE being bounced around by Tonkors. - Lantyssa

Babies shooting themselves in the head is the state bird of West Virginia. - schild
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Reply #61 on: July 20, 2006, 07:34:30 PM

Even the proprietary power supply hasn't been produced in over 6 years. None of Dell's stuff is proprietary and hasn't been for a while now. The motherboard? Intel chipset, probably even made by intel, not dell. The nic card? Intel, most likely. The sound? a common on-board sound chipset found on any number of motherboards. The CMOS/BIOS? Probably Award or Phoenix, again, nothing to do with Dell.
The BIOSes used to be custom in the sense that they would strip out almost all the functionality that you would normally get in a BIOS which of course made perfect sense for them since it dramatically reduces the number of support variables they have to contend with. I don't know if they still do that sort of thing.
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Reply #62 on: July 20, 2006, 07:37:13 PM

Even the proprietary power supply hasn't been produced in over 6 years. None of Dell's stuff is proprietary and hasn't been for a while now. The motherboard? Intel chipset, probably even made by intel, not dell. The nic card? Intel, most likely. The sound? a common on-board sound chipset found on any number of motherboards. The CMOS/BIOS? Probably Award or Phoenix, again, nothing to do with Dell.
The BIOSes used to be custom in the sense that they would strip out almost all the functionality that you would normally get in a BIOS which of course made perfect sense for them since it dramatically reduces the number of support variables they have to contend with. I don't know if they still do that sort of thing.


Its a little dumbed-down, but fine for work environments. Sure, its not for the l33t overclocker gamer, but what avid computer tinkerer buys a Dell anyway?

I should get back to nature, too.  You know, like going to a shop for groceries instead of the computer.  Maybe a condo in the woods that doesn't even have a health club or restaurant attached.  Buy a car with only two cup holders or something. -Signe

I LIKE being bounced around by Tonkors. - Lantyssa

Babies shooting themselves in the head is the state bird of West Virginia. - schild
schild
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Reply #63 on: July 20, 2006, 07:37:47 PM

O RLY? Like which? Which part is proprietary? I've yet to see a proprietary part in a Dell in the last few years.

Except for the CPU and HDD and video card...all of it? This may not hold true with the new XPS/Alienware rigs though.

Wrong. All of it. Wrong.

-nm, Engels already said it.

- The BIOSs for at least 2 or 3 years have been completely changeable and all things have been enabled.
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Reply #64 on: July 20, 2006, 08:58:09 PM

Well, then their practices have changed.


I'm still not buying a Dell. Ever.

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Reply #65 on: July 21, 2006, 07:35:32 AM

I have been using a Dell for a few years now. The one thing that really, really pisses me off about it is that they used some special version of the Creative soundcard I ordered that is unrecognised by the Creative drivers. So when I go to update the drivers, it tells me I don't have a Creative card. Also I don't know where you're getting this cheaper-to-buy-Dell stuff, I've priced out custom parts for a desktop on newegg and I could get a significantly more powerful machine for the same price as a much less powerful Dell desktop.
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Reply #66 on: July 21, 2006, 07:57:55 AM

It's funny, lots of people say they can get a machine as equally as powerful as Dell for the same price - even when there are incredible coupons going around - and they never can.

Especially after they realize the vast majority of those couponed deals have a 19" to 21" 16x10 monitor thrown in.

Keep saying it. Keep saying it's cheaper to build your own machine. Keep saying Apples are as cost-effective as a Dell or any other machine. Keep saying Dells are pieces of shit. Go on, keep going. Too bad no matter how much you say it, it's not going to change the fact that you're entirely wrong.

Sure, I'd like to build a sleak sexy looking piece of tech from handpicked parts, but who am I fucking kidding. The XPS 700, specced out correctly, is better than anything I'm going to build MYSELF and it's most definately cheaper. I've built all but one of my past computers (that was a Gateway back when Gateways were the shit. I was also 12 or something). But it just doesn't make sense to do that anymore unless you have interest in being an elitist assmunch or would rather be building a machine than plugging one in and playing games. But as I mentioned earlier, I'd like a small form factor so I'm probably going to be paying a premium. But that's totally by choice, I'd be paying more of a premium on the open market. Though I am tempted to get one of these in a midrange variant for f13.netty stuff. I've wanted a second machine for a long time so I had one machine as a dedicated gaming piece.

Unfortunately, it'd still be cheaper to buy a Dell than it would be to fill that new Shuttle Wii case up with bottom of the line shit from Newegg.

Edit: That Shuttle machine the way I want it would be $1485. That's without any monitor. The Dell costs $1470 with a 19" flat panel (this is the overpriced tiny formfactor steel cased XPS 200). Also, it has a real graphics card instead of that mobility shit (granted the XPS case is fucking tiny and I did say a premium). But where do you draw the line at premium? The 19" monitor is $200 normally at the Dell website and the Dell might actually have proper Airflow. Meanwhile the Shuttle is basically the Wii formfactor, has a beefass harddrive all things considered and does have at least a good mobility. But either way, in terms of cost, the Dell is less for more. The iMac starts at $1,299.00. It's only a 17" monitor. Also, the computer itself is weak sauce compared to the previous specced out ones. G5s start at $1,999. And what the fuck is up with the high end G5 having a 512MB RAM baseline setup? Upgrading to 1 Gig through them costs $100 to $200.

Edit 2: Ok, we can go back to talking about Laptops now.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2006, 08:07:47 AM by schild »
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Reply #67 on: July 21, 2006, 09:14:14 AM

Dell does not have a machine comparable to the Mac Mini. That's not an ultra small form factor Dell. Despite marketing speak. I wouldn't even call my Shuttle Ultra small form factor.
A Shuttle's not even close (edit: ok, I'm thinking an older shuttle, mebbe, after checking out your link). That's just SFF. USFF is more like the one on the right:


They are pretty nice low end machines, I bolt them underneath and behind desks. Mostly notebook parts. But yeah, nothing is comparable to the mini right now, that's just the closest mainstream pc I know of. The mini really does kick ass, with intel looking to revamp integrated and notebook graphics things could get interesting, but USFF machines aren't really about gaming. (edit: just checked out your Shuttle link, that's a sweet damned case)
Quote
But it just doesn't make sense to do that anymore unless you have interest in being an elitist assmunch or would rather be building a machine than plugging one in and playing games.
Or you could be, you know, an oldschool pc enthusiast who actually enjoys building machines and playing games on them.

On mac hardware: I only like the mini, xserve and the notebooks. I don't dig integrated monitors or way overpriced towers.

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Reply #68 on: July 21, 2006, 09:24:01 AM

I don't think those towers will remain overpriced. A lot of that is due to those models still being PowerPC. I'm holding out on getting any kind of new machine until I see what Apple does here. Hopefully they'll offer power and value equivalent to their mini's and laptops once they fully transition to Intel.
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Reply #69 on: July 21, 2006, 09:33:08 AM

Schild, thanks for that Shuttle link. I'll be considering those over the Dell USFF for the near future, they're just a bit bigger than the Apples and I can get one with better guts than the Dell for almost $100 cheaper. And Core Duo over Pentium D, to boot. Good stuff.

Stray - I don't see Apple ever making their flagships cheap. It would be nice, but that's just not the business model, the mini surprised the hell out of me and I hope that form factor sticks around for a long time.

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