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Author Topic: Continuing Haemish's thread on PC vs. Console  (Read 11989 times)
Admiral
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on: March 20, 2004, 12:40:41 AM

Darniaq summed it up best I think: The console may well win, but I don't care.

I have not owned a console since the Oddessy and Atari that immediately followed it. Actually, not quite true: I had a Vectrex as well, but that wasn't quite a console. Since the Apple II, I've been a purely PC gamer. Wizardry was what I grew up on (and actually I did quite a bit of development in UCSD Pascal at the time too).

The things I don't like about the console are:

*) Input device, especially at my "advanced" 30-something age

*) Lack of keyboard (although I bet this will change soon)

*) Low resolution (although this may change if you can get 1080p consoles)

What I really think will happen is that in 5-10 years or less we'll have a convergence:

*) PC video cards will output to HDTV in 1900x1080 resolution and we'll be quite happy with that

*) Video graphics cards will max out in speed such that there's no real urgent need for more (kind of like I'm still running a 1300 mHz Athlon even though I'm a compulsive upgrader, with my 5900 Ultra)

*) Computers will reduce in size to "console" size anyway

So, there won't be a dichotomy at that point.

Now that I have my new Mac (c.f. the old thread on Waterthread), I'm happy as a clam, because I can do my work (development) on one computer and use a totally separate computer for gaming, without the urge to buy an over powered laptop for doing both. (Note: Dungeon Siege, Baldur's Gate II, and a bunch of others run fine on this PowerBook, and MacSoft now loves a new customer.) In effect, I'm a console gamer who spent thousands on his console instead of hundreds, because the gaming machine is a dedicated gaming machine, just like an X-box.

There is one absolute, though: I'm not getting a console game system for my (imminently forthcoming) children. They can learn to type and interact socially if they want to do it while playing video games.

Cheers,

Doug
Matt
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Reply #1 on: March 20, 2004, 03:43:07 AM

Quote from: Admiral

*) Input device, especially at my "advanced" 30-something age

I too am at the age where I cannot be trusted, but I find controllers are simply better for some games than mouse+keyboard. I VASTLY prefer the dual-joystick config on modern controllers for an FPS to a keyboard and mouse. Yes, I know that 18 year olds for whom the ultimate in gaming is having fast reflexes will tell me how horrible the controller is for an FPS but I don't care. I find Halo's controls much more intuitive than the standard mouse+keyboard setup. Perhaps not as effective but I'm just out to have fun, not dominate.

Quote

*) Lack of keyboard (although I bet this will change soon)

I have a keyboard for my beloved Dreamcast, which I bought to talk to people in Unreal Tournament.

Quote

*) Low resolution (although this may change if you can get 1080p consoles)

Yeah, fair enough, though the handful of games running 780p or 1080i on my 50" widescreen DLP look awfully good. I've got Vice City for both the Xbox and PC, for instance, and there's no comparison: Xbox wins for visuals hands down, particularly given that my PC has a paltry 21" screen and it's not even a widescreen (yes, I realize that's my fault.)

Quote

There is one absolute, though: I'm not getting a console game system for my (imminently forthcoming) children. They can learn to type and interact socially if they want to do it while playing video games.

Xbox Live, my man! I find people on Xbox live to be uncommonly well-behaved and mature compared to the general quality of person that jaunts about the net looking for community. Maybe I've had an uncommon experience, I dunno.

--matt

"And thus, they ate horseflesh as if it was venison, and they reckoned it most savory, for hunger served in the place of seasoning."
Argh Im A Pirate
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Reply #2 on: March 21, 2004, 02:13:29 AM

Deprive you children of a console? What kind of cruel punishment is that? You sir, are a very sick man.
Dark_MadMax
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Reply #3 on: March 22, 2004, 12:58:16 AM

PC is universal computer -"centre of digital universe" as some marketing slogan may say. Its not  only games - its music ,books, movies , news  ,forums , e-mail , and web pages .Its ISQ ,AIM , MIRC ,MSN messenger .  Its MS office ,Turbo Tax and language dictionary .It is photoshop ,Auto CAD ,lightwave and  3D -studio. Its MSVS . NET ,Oracle and SQL . Its a tool to MOD and tweak games u  like after all - if you want you can write your own.

 -thats one of the strongest argument why I never ever had a slightest urge to buy a console . Buy a stupid box which only can play games?!?!? What will  I do when I want to check latest news on subject I have interest with? What I do when I want find buy hardware for my next upgrade? Read new cars rating?  flame on forums?  Ask question on professional forums? If i want to do a spell check ,prepare my resume , or send e-mail to my friends?  And you know the best part? -I can do it all at the same time ! No way I traded ability to finishing excel chart for my boss  while   listening  to my favorite online radios station , having p2p runnign in the background downloading latest movie/album and when  I am bored with "productive activity"  I can load a quick match in CS or BF 1942 .

 I want a system when I can finish my school project ,do some job ,send e-mails , download music ,movies  , write my programs  and of course games .Games I can mod , games with flexible interface , strong  community and modding support , game I can play on -line with  no hassle with thousands of  servers readily available .

Hardware:

 Now generic PC has better input interface - keyboard+mouse (+joystick if u like flight sims) its  flexible and customizable . For f$ck sake how do imagine doing anything  remotely  complex with a gamepad?  Even not complex but such basic thing as typing and chatting?!?

 PC have more advanced tool too - such as teamspeak and track ir.

And hardest of hardware arguments : consoles simply suck. You can flame  for hours how xbox is "superior" to PC , but 700 mhz celeron with 64 mb of ram and geforce 3 only deserves to be a router or  browser bo ,but not a gaming platform.   I am well aware that next generations of consoles is coming ,but as always next gen console will strruggle hard to be on par with current PC s ,  and  fade into obsoletness during a  year.
 - small levels ,sucky textures ,primitive level design, non-existant AI  - those are all attributes of console games, driven by consoles inadequate hardware.
 
  And quality complex games require those resources -any innovation requires power. for ai ,for levels ,for physics - consoles simply dont have it .

Now to  put the last nail in the consoless coffin :)  games themselves :

 Consoles are rich on sports sims , arcades and fightings. Now they have some FPS and RPGs too ( though rpg are mostly Jrpg types- such as Final Fantasy,or diablo like  clones) . You know that some ppl dont give a f$ck about those ? Same way as some ppl dont want to play anything more complex than minesweeper some ppl want intersteing deep and complex games . And guess what? - consoles have practically non of them .Even midly intersting titles such as GTA are ported to PC .

 Xboxers going haywire over Halo ,morrowind or Deus X2  only can provoke a  gracious perplexity - such mediocre titles  , getting big. - half a loaf is better than no bread, I guess.

 Lets swing over some major titles  which have no alternatives in console market :

 Complex strategy games (Civilization,SimCity , master of magic ,Master of Orion,Europe Universalis )

 Total war series ( Total war:Shogun, Medieval and now coming Rome) . Heroes of Might and magic series

 Tactical combat simulations (x-com , jagged alliance 1 &2 ,  commandos ,Rainbow 6)
 
 CRPGs - Dark Sun ,Betrayal at Krondor , TES:Daggerfall, Ultima, M&M (up to 7) , Fallout    1&2 , Baldur's Gate series ,  NWN and of  Planescape:The torment ( simply the best story driven CRPG title ever produced) .

 Space sims (x-wing,tie-fighter ,freespace)  
 and space freefrom ( from primitive elite to more complex elite2 and elite 3 first encounters    to X-tension and x-tension 2)
 
Flight sims (starting with f29 retailator,Red baron,jane's sims, to such state of the art flight sims as Il-2 and Lock-on)

 War games (dont know much here  ,but consoles have NO wargames) .

RTS - from Dune 2 ,to  C&C and Warcraft .

 FPS  - simply  each and every revolutionary FPS is for PC.  Starting from wolfensteing 3d  , to doom 1 & 2 ,System Shock, quake ,half-life,thief ,System Shock 2, NOLF ,Deus EX  and now  upcoming STALKER, Far Cry ,Doom 3 ,half-life 2 . And countless of quality FPSs in between
(rise of the triad, darkforces, jedi knight,chrome  etc...)

 multiplayer online games - Starcraft  ,Diablo , Counter-Strike,BF 1942 - you name it.
 
 And of course waterhtread favourite's - MMORPGs.


 What consoles have produced decent? -Splinter cell  half assing  thiefs ideas? GTA exploting '95 Quarantine ideas?


     I think that consoles and PC games have different auditory. While consoles may "win"- by having bigger market share , it doesnt mean PC games will die.  Typical console gamer is not enthusisast  -he is the same gay who watche reality shows , eats burgers , watches  blockbuster on sundays. or its a teenager who cant handle anything more comples that wrestling and tony hawk skater.

 While PC gamers are often "geeks"  who create an enourmous community ( thanks to the fact we can do that all on the same PC :) ).


 Many Joes  underestimate modding communities ,stating that  they never produce anything good ( stating CS as exclusion supporting rule)  . -problem in so far was that games are very complex software projects whihc require many-man hours and  only a few years community simply  lacked infrastracture to develop quality products. Also art and content usually need some financial investement. Nevertheless there are quality titles such as  Space Empires 4 ,Avernum (ex exlie) Dominions,roguelikes ( adom) etc.   basically made  by one man  and supported by communites. Some very good projects in development (e.g. vegastrike.net)

 -Developing becomes easier ,  quality 3d/physics  open source engine already exist , sourceforge provides some good infrastracture for developing enthusiast projects  which whill only lead to more quality products. - Of course progress is slower than in commercial areas (as basically ppl wrok "at will" and in their free time) , but noticeable nevertheless.

 
 PC  gaming is far from dead. It may become "niche" . But there will be always enough "geeks" to supoprt it .

 Niche is not bad - most really quality  products are niche (books, movies ,music) - as opposed to popular  ("blockbuster","music hit","bestseller") . - Popularity is summ of aggressive marketg+lowest common denominator. It makes money true -but  often its  only a cow dung in flashy box designed for 5 minute attention span, 80 IQ  Joe Blob - THE consumer.
Rasix
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Reply #4 on: March 22, 2004, 01:47:51 AM

Slowly step away from the computer.

Take a deep breath.

And step into an oncoming bus.

Thank you.

-Rasix
Rodent
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Reply #5 on: March 22, 2004, 03:50:35 AM

Quote from: Admiral
Darniaq summed it up best I think: The console may well win, but I don't care.


See now if you hadn't written a bunch of drivel as to why you think PC > Consoles I would have belived you.

My only argument in the PC vs Consoles debate is this: Super Mario Bros.

Thank you, that'll be all.

Wiiiiii!
shiznitz
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Reply #6 on: March 22, 2004, 07:38:17 AM

I continue to think console sales are peaking: invisible link about February 2004 sales.

Notable:  "Citing research data from the NPD Group, analysts said the PS2 data in particular -- with a roughly 13 percent year-over-year decline in software sales..."

Notable: "Analysts said the 5 percent growth figure was relatively low given that the industry had a relatively easy comparison to last year, but also said that in the end the figures were not as important as at other times of the year. "

I have never played WoW.
Glamdring
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Reply #7 on: March 22, 2004, 07:45:53 AM

I'll agree that your average PC FPS is much better than your average console FPS.

The weird thing is that the most fun I've ever had playing any FPS was when I would get together with three other friends and play Goldeneye for hours on end.
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Reply #8 on: March 22, 2004, 09:15:06 AM

I've got three consoles that I never use.  Not really sure why I bought them.  Dreamcast, PS2, GameCube.  They sit gathering dust.  I do all my gaming on my PC.

Instead of a console, I'd much rather have an HTPC in my living room.  Far far far more flexible.  (http://www.htpcnews.com/)  Sure it's more costly, but it does more.  There's even a nice free front-end package for them. ((http://myhtpc.net/)  Well worth downloading and playing with on any PC.)

The best games, the best in home theatre accessories.  One box to rule them all...
Sairon
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Reply #9 on: March 22, 2004, 09:37:18 AM

Quote from: Dark_MadMax
PC is universal computer -"centre of digital universe" as some marketing slogan may say. Its not  only games - its music ,books, movies , news  ,forums , e-mail , and web pages .Its ISQ ,AIM , MIRC ,MSN messenger .  Its MS office ,Turbo Tax and language dictionary .It is photoshop ,Auto CAD ,lightwave and  3D -studio. Its MSVS . NET ,Oracle and SQL . Its a tool to MOD and tweak games u  like after all - if you want you can write your own.

 -thats one of the strongest argument why I never ever had a slightest urge to buy a console . Buy a stupid box which only can play games?!?!? What will  I do when I want to check latest news on subject I have interest with? What I do when I want find buy hardware for my next upgrade? Read new cars rating?  flame on forums?  Ask question on professional forums? If i want to do a spell check ,prepare my resume , or send e-mail to my friends?  And you know the best part? -I can do it all at the same time ! No way I traded ability to finishing excel chart for my boss  while   listening  to my favorite online radios station , having p2p runnign in the background downloading latest movie/album and when  I am bored with "productive activity"  I can load a quick match in CS or BF 1942 .


That's the big problem, the PC tries to be everything. It's like those suiss army knives with like 100 diffrent tools in them. Sure they chop vegatables, but they aint going to replace that nice cooking knife.
Katukov Strikes Back
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Reply #10 on: March 22, 2004, 09:38:17 AM

Quote from: Rodent
My only argument in the PC vs Consoles debate is this...


...replay value.

$50 for a weeks worth of gameplay* vs $50 for months or even years worth of gameplay.

Gee, let me think.

That's where I see the market going. Consoles get the lion's share of the cash via rentals while PC games become more long term investments. Bring on the niche!

*No, gimicks like RPG style treadmills or huge cut scenes that serve no purpose don't count.
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Reply #11 on: March 22, 2004, 09:46:03 AM

Quote from: Katukov Strikes Back
Quote from: Rodent
My only argument in the PC vs Consoles debate is this...


...replay value.

$50 for a weeks worth of gameplay* vs $50 for months or even years worth of gameplay.

Gee, let me think.

That's where I see the market going. Consoles get the lion's share of the cash via rentals while PC games become more long term investments. Bring on the niche!

*No, gimicks like RPG style treadmills or huge cut scenes that serve no purpose don't count.


What makes most PC games last longer is the multiplayer. I actually tend to like single player games more than multiplayer nowdays, nobody around spoiling your experience. And I like to be able to complete a game and then be done with it, it's all about the fun/hour. And as matter of fact, most multiplayer games isn't FUN all that long, just addictive.
HaemishM
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Reply #12 on: March 22, 2004, 11:31:12 AM

Quote from: Dark_MadMax
And hardest of hardware arguments : consoles simply suck. You can flame  for hours how xbox is "superior" to PC , but 700 mhz celeron with 64 mb of ram and geforce 3 only deserves to be a router or  browser bo ,but not a gaming platform.   I am well aware that next generations of consoles is coming ,but as always next gen console will strruggle hard to be on par with current PC s ,  and  fade into obsoletness during a  year.
 - small levels ,sucky textures ,primitive level design, non-existant AI  - those are all attributes of console games, driven by consoles inadequate hardware.
 
  And quality complex games require those resources -any innovation requires power. for ai ,for levels ,for physics - consoles simply dont have it .


Holy mother of crap, learn to use the shift key.

I disagree with what you said. Console games CAN have all of this. AI, physics, levels, etc. Splinter Cell trumps your argument. Vice City trumps your argument.

Are there things a PC can do better? Undoubtedly, and always will be, because the PC is built as a more multi-purpose machine. But for the mass market, which is what I was talking about, the console is a better value. It provides games that can be as interesting and immersive as a PC, for a cheaper price, without a great deal of specialized knowledge required to make them run.

YOU may not want a console, or feel a console is worth a damn. YOU are not the target market. You can operate a PC. You like to post on message boards.

The majority of people will never know or want to know the things you do.

Consoles will get some convergence, such as web browsing capability, keyboards, etc. But for online gaming in the future, voice IS the future, not keyboard shackled chat.

EDIT: And just to trim you down even more:

Flight sims and wargames have become the ultimate niche product, because they don't sell that well anymore, and are better sold to the niche crowd using the Net. See Strategy First.

Most people would rather play Top Gun than Jane's.

Shooters are becoming more popular and more interesting on consoles. Rainbow Six 3 is on the X-Box and is well-regarded for its multiplayer. MechAssault is ONLY on the X-Box and is well-regarded for its multiplayer.

You discount Japanese RPG's like Final Fantasy. You do realize those games have sold much better than most CRPG's on the PC, right?

RTS games are available on the consoles. The C&C games have sold reasonably well on the console.

Multiplayer online games? X-Box Live and a shitton of games that are doing well. PS2 with Socom, EQOA, and EA Sports games.

Yes, there are some things that the PC does better. Note, I never said niche was BAD; I stress that I think PC games will succeed best when they focus on the niche. Niche will be more profitable than trying to compete in the same arena as the big publishers and consoles.

Focusing on the niche will actually increase the number of good games available on the PC, because they won't be trying to compete for the average joe's dollars.

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Reply #13 on: March 22, 2004, 12:06:53 PM

Quote
I too am at the age where I cannot be trusted, but I find controllers are simply better for some games than mouse+keyboard. I VASTLY prefer the dual-joystick config on modern controllers for an FPS to a keyboard and mouse. Yes, I know that 18 year olds for whom the ultimate in gaming is having fast reflexes will tell me how horrible the controller is for an FPS but I don't care. I find Halo's controls much more intuitive than the standard mouse+keyboard setup. Perhaps not as effective but I'm just out to have fun, not dominate.


I am in the same decrepit age group, and I feel the exact opposite- mouse + keyboard >>>>> controller with two joysticks, at least for FPS. I have been playing FPS since Wolfenstein 3d, Doom, Redneck Rampage (the first one I ever played multiplayer), etc. If I had never played one before, I guess learning on a controller might make me feel differently. As it stands now, I bought Halo for my XBox, played it a total of about an hour, and will likely never play it again. I feel like I am dancing with two left feet.

When speaking of the MMOG industry, the glass may be half full, but it's full of urine. HaemishM

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Reply #14 on: March 22, 2004, 12:35:40 PM

I won't go over the eternal list of pros and cons again. Suffice it to say, currently I enjoy being able to buy a cheap console or three and not having to make any serious decisions for the next four years.

I was raised on the SNES-Genesis, then became a PC gamer from the N64-PSX era until about two years ago. I did the Wing Commander / SMAC / Starcraft / Falcon 4.0 / Master of Orion / EverQuest / Asheron's Call / Baldur's Gate / cycle, and burned out. Now I'm having fun being a console gamer for a while again. But that's OK, since people are allowed to change their preferences and whatnot.

But it's not about platforms for me. I go where the games I want to play are. Currently, I own a PS2, GameCube, and XBox because I want to play FFX, Zelda/Mario, and Halo/KoTOR. I don't really have a gaming-class PC rig right now, but there aren't a whole lot of PC games out there at the moment that would be more fun to me than the console games I'm playing. That doesn't rule out the future.

Of the future, and where the video game industry is going: You'll pry my Wavebird or DualShock 2 out of my cold dead hands and converge my console into a media PC (with driver conflicts and video card upgrades) over my dead body. But I'll also be damned if the cool PC game niche ever dies. I like them both.

I think everyone realizes in the end that it's just a matter of what you want to play, but arguing "X must kill Y" is fun and whatnot.
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Reply #15 on: March 22, 2004, 12:49:31 PM

Quote

YOU may not want a console, or feel a console is worth a damn. YOU are not the target market. You can operate a PC. You like to post on message boards.

The majority of people will never know or want to know the things you do.


Quote

I stress that I think PC games will succeed best when they focus on the niche. Niche will be more profitable than trying to compete in the same arena as the big publishers and consoles.


If PC gamers are not the target audience for consoles (and viceversa), then consoles and PC's are not competing (in the same arena).

That's one thing I don't understand:  most of the PC afficionados here swear they're never gonna buy a console game, and I'm guessing that consolers will stick to their platform too.  How exactly does the growth happen?  It's kinda like the playerbase for a MMOG, where do you get the extra players from?

PC gamers stick to PC's, consolers stick to consoles, and if you're a game maker trying to switch from PC's to consoles, you encounter three things:

1.  You leave your fanbase behind in the PC arena.
2.  You're trying to convince consolers to play a game/genre they generally don't care about.
3.  For your particular better-suited-for-PC game, the graphics/controls you can dish out on the console are poorer than on the PC.

I guess my point is that yes, you can sell a lot more games if you switch to making Mario Bros when you go to the console, but if you stick to your genre, it's iffy.
HaemishM
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Reply #16 on: March 22, 2004, 01:30:06 PM

Convergence.

There are a lot of consolers who own PC's, and PC gamers are starting to also own consoles. You can't do web browsing or email with a console (yet).

The problem with the PC market is it IS trying to compete with consoles in making blockbuster titles. The developers are being gobbled up by big publishers who try to throw a ton of games at the market in the hopes of getting one breakout success. The developers themselves are making almost no profit off of PC games, where the same or less effort will net them much better profits off of console games. They are trying to compete with console games on production values, and while the results are pretty, few PC game developers seem to be doing much more than surviving, especially without big publisher support.

Consoles do compete with PC's and vice versa for the gamer's entertainment dollar, along with DVD's, movies, and other leisure activity.

I am a PC Gamer who now owns both a (swiftly being outdated) PC and an X-Box with Live sub.

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Reply #17 on: March 22, 2004, 02:36:09 PM

My preferences entirely depend on the game.  I own an Xbox and a decent computer (can still play full details in every game/demo I have tried and get 20+ fps).

Many games are coming out for xbox and computer.  I like to play the pc demo, rent the xbox version and then pick which I will buy.

Splinter Cell is coming up soon.  Xbox and PC release on same day.  I won't be buying it day 1, but I sure will be buying it.  That game is going on the xbox.  I like xbox live far more than most of my UT/Quake arena experiences.  I also like the xbox controls in splinter cell 1 FAR more than the fucked up controls in the pc demo for splinter cell 2.  I have tried remapping a lot and still like the dual analog better for this game.

Hitman 2 was the opposite.  That felt better on the PC for me.  Not sure which version of Hitman 3 I will get.

Doom 3 still sounds like it will be on xbox as well, but that is a no brainer PC game for me.

Played kotor on both, like it better on the xbox.

LOVED beyond good and evil on the xbox.  Thought the demo handled like SHIT on the PC and was not remappable.

Prince of persia was nice on both.  Mine is PC on a whim.  Almost wish I went console since my pc version likes to get scratchy sound 20 minutes in and I have to restart it all the time.  never had that happen on my xbox.

I find I am liking xbox more and more for controls and really just want the pc for mmogs, strategy games, and fps games.  Third person games I flipflop on.  That is a lot of games on PC for sure.  I am currently about even split on purchasing xbox games vs PC games.  If I had a halfway decent TV I would probably shift more towards xbox.
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Reply #18 on: March 22, 2004, 02:58:18 PM

I've played through KotOR on the PC, and didn't mind the controls.  What about the controls was better on the Xbox?  Just curious.  I thought it was great you could scroll through the powers/actions with the mouse wheel, which is the only part of the controls I could see having an issue with.

Didn't have any issues with BG&E on PC either.  I think keys were remappable by release.  And the control layout seemed fine once I figured it out.

I'm sort of dubious about DOOM 3.  I'll get it eventually, I'm sure.  I just can't get excited about that game.  Too many years of letdown.

I'm hoping for a revival of TBS strategy games on PC in the near future.  I'm tired of frantic clicking being the endall of strategy and skill.  I might have to get the Civ3 expansion, or start playing SMAC again.
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Reply #19 on: March 22, 2004, 03:49:45 PM

I don't have the manual for kotor in front of my at work so I can't describe the controls, but it heavily used the digital gamepad as a quickmenu and made excellent use of the shoulder buttons.

Maybe it is just how my brain works but I always had to spend time thinking about what button did what on the PC where I had aced the xbox control scheme before getting off the starting ship.  It is PROBABLY just that I played the xbox version first and was used to it.


If BG&E release for pc was remappable then that could have been fine.  The demo stuck you with default controls that felt clunky and counter intuitive for me.  I don't even remember them since I rather quickly deleted the game hating the controls but telling mysef that it could be fun on a console.  when it dropped to $20 I grabbed it for xbox and loved it, never having a single complaint about controls while playing.


For turn based strategy, try out Silent Storm if you want a jagged alliance type squad game.  The re-release of jagged alliance is also out, not too familiar with the story behind it, but looks like a mod gone wild that got a commercial release.  Called Wildfire I think.

If you are looking for a wargame or civ type game I don't have any suggestions. I have not had the hankering to play one of those in a long time.
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Reply #20 on: March 22, 2004, 05:18:02 PM

Funny thing about controllers. I have always hated the PS controllers, and the N64 controllers, all the controllers with those little nipple sticks have always pissed me off. I managed to make do with the PS2 controllers when I had one in the house for a few months, but was never comfortable with it.

I totally dig the X-Box controller. And I don't mean the S-controller, the smaller version. No, I mean DUKE, the original BIG AS A GODDAMN HOUSE controller. I'm still all thumbs like someone of my age and normal clutziness is, but I can handle them a helluva better than any other. YMMV.

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Reply #21 on: March 23, 2004, 09:27:51 AM

I love the DUKE.  I also loved the dreamcast controller.  But the duke is my favorite controller of all time.  Must get a pc adapter for it.  My only problem with it is I wish they would have moved the black and white buttons to where they are on the S controller.

If I run a power back in ESPN football I have to play an S controller so I can have instant access to the black and white buttons.  Sure I could switch controls to make stiff arm the shoulder buttons, but I still juke even with the big guys.  And since I play the pack, I play ahman green all the time and he is equally as good juking as he is stiffarming and planting defenders in the grass.  I need those buttons easily reachable.

Other than that gripe, LOVE the duke.
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