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Author Topic: stupid question... "instancing"?  (Read 15536 times)
Sky
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Reply #35 on: May 18, 2004, 01:37:40 PM

Did I just see a link to FOH? Criminy.

Quote
The problem with CoH is every zone looks the same. They all use polygons and textures! C'mon, cryptic, you got to do better than that to beat WoW!!!


^*^

Riggswolfe
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Reply #36 on: May 18, 2004, 02:58:11 PM

Quote from: El Gallo


especially the last paragraph, which led me to believe that CoH was like LDoN/AO.


I never played LDoN (EQ expansion right?) but it is almost exactly like AO without the little treasure chests you can loot and the item reward alot of AO missions gave. In fact, my only gripe with CoH at this point is that I like loot and CoH is lacking in that area.

"We live in a country, where John Lennon takes six bullets in the chest, Yoko Ono was standing right next to him and not one fucking bullet! Explain that to me! Explain that to me, God! Explain it to me, God!" - Denis Leary summing up my feelings about the nature of the universe.
Numtini
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Posts: 7675


Reply #37 on: May 18, 2004, 06:40:35 PM

Quote
They don't instance "hand-crafted" dungeons so much because they can still only create so much content so quickly. Putting together random building block zones is much easier and lasts longer than trying to handcraft every single instance someone enters.


The handcrafted dungeons in AO are instanced as well. They add a new instance once they get up to 4 or 5 full groups. At that point, additional groups aren't "more help" they're just waiting in line or overwhelming the critters with far too much firepower.

Instanced "missions" in AO or in LDON are a substitute for the nightly camp in the dreadlands or in a single room in Spindelhalla or whatever where you do nothing but pull and sit for hours on end. AO missions may get a little boring, but they're infinitely better than the camp at a camp option.

If you can read this, you're on a board populated by misogynist assholes.
Righ
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Reply #38 on: May 18, 2004, 09:29:46 PM

The biggest gripe I have about "instanced" dungeons/missions is with the term used. MMOGs are nerdy enough without using jargon thats largely derived from computer programming. The marketing droids seriously need to beat the shit out of the tech chimps in this industry.

The camera adds a thousand barrels. - Steven Colbert
Tebonas
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Reply #39 on: May 19, 2004, 04:59:19 AM

Huh? Thats the first time I read somebody not in marketing himself writing that anybody but them needs a sound beating, or two, or ten, or as many as they need to be reduced to a bloody pulp.
HaemishM
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Posts: 41993

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Reply #40 on: May 19, 2004, 01:56:20 PM

Quote from: El Gallo
I have not played CoH and was basing my comments on what I read at http://fohguild.org/forums/showthread.php?s=6cf575b7903c198192048f81ee256ab9&threadid=11502&perpage=15&pagenumber=7

in particular

Quote
Zones. There are 3 zone types.

1: Standard city. They all look the same. Don't kid yourself. the only 2 zones that have any character to them are Brickstown and Founders falls. Bricks because it has the prison, and founders falls because of the many waterways and cobblestone feel.

2: Burnt/Destroyed City. Boomtown, creys etc. They all look/feel the same. You've seen 1, you've seen em all.

3: Wildlife/nature. Perez park has some, Eden has a lot, and of course the Hive. if you've seen one forest, you've seen em all. Nothing new to explore in Eden if you've seen perez park. Its the same trees, same rocks. Just a few different mob names here and there.

Some zone intermix the types, but its still the same.


Next up - dungeons. Randomly generated Dungeons =! content. the EQ LDON expansion had this same problem. Dungeons that are randomly spawned/different - are still the same dungeon. If you want truely good content, you need to hand craft each dungeon. Just because Office A has 3 more rooms than office B, does not mean its different. It means there is a serious lack of creativity and effort put into creating more content.


especially the last paragraph, which led me to believe that CoH was like LDoN/AO.


You need to stop listening to that bunch of cockgobblers on the FOH site. They do not know what makes a good game. They are corporate shills for WoW.

Yes, the instance dungeons for CoH are somewhat similar. But just having pretty hand-crafted dungeons means jack and shit if your gameplay is so bad, boring or repetitive that you'd rather claw your eyes out than level in that game again.

El Gallo
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Reply #41 on: May 19, 2004, 02:05:59 PM

Am I so bad for fantasizing about a game with both handcrafted dungeons and decent gameplay?  On second thought, don't answer that.

This post makes me want to squeeze into my badass red jeans.
Nebu
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Reply #42 on: May 19, 2004, 02:14:09 PM

Quote from: HaemishM
Yes, the instance dungeons for CoH are somewhat similar. But just having pretty hand-crafted dungeons means jack and shit if your gameplay is so bad, boring or repetitive that you'd rather claw your eyes out than level in that game again.


Well, look at it this way.  EQ demonstrated that having pretty handcrafted dungeons gave you something to admire while you sat at the same camp site treadmilling for 10h blocks (catass to victory anyone?).  

I agree... instancing or no, if the core gameplay doesn't create the draw the game will fail.  One thing that I do like about instanced dungeons (CoH, LDoN) were the timed missions.  It gave a sense of urgency about the task at hand.  It wasn't enough to keep me interested, but it was an improvement.

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-  Mark Twain
Xilren's Twin
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Reply #43 on: May 19, 2004, 03:15:29 PM

Quote from: Nebu
I agree... instancing or no, if the core gameplay doesn't create the draw the game will fail.  One thing that I do like about instanced dungeons (CoH, LDoN) were the timed missions.  It gave a sense of urgency about the task at hand.  It wasn't enough to keep me interested, but it was an improvement.


That's where the best of both worlds should come into play. If you handcraft the building blocks to support differnt mission types better.  For example, in a rescue the hostage mission you should have the ability to put the hostages and captors in rooms, not standing out in main hallways.  Or you could have a bomb defusing mission in an office building where it choose the floorplan of a say a bank, or lab or police headquarters or something.  That way the bombs could be placed in one of several logical positions that.  Of course, this all depends on how the pieces fit together, but should be doable.  Just make 5 copies of the current office plans, tweak for mission type and there ya go.

Could it still get repetative?  Sure.  But as previously mentioned, having to play through the best handcrafted dungeon over and over to advance would to.  Handcrafted to me is more than just pretty, it means meaningful gameplay.  Logical consistency helps, as does a variety of goals.

I think adding more mission types is ultimately more important than adding more mission maps...

Xilren

"..but I'm by no means normal." - Schild
Alrindel
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Reply #44 on: May 20, 2004, 08:04:17 AM

Quote from: Xilren's Twin
I think adding more mission types is ultimately more important than adding more mission maps...

From what I recall of Statesman's posts on the beta boards, he completely agrees with you.  He mentioned that the mission type he'd personally most like to get into the game would involve Batman-style detective work.
Xilren's Twin
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Reply #45 on: May 20, 2004, 09:35:16 AM

Quote from: Alrindel
From what I recall of Statesman's posts on the beta boards, he completely agrees with you.  He mentioned that the mission type he'd personally most like to get into the game would involve Batman-style detective work.


CoH already has some nice variety in there, so improving a good thing is a win win :).

Had a nice mission this morning that I thought was going to be a straight "kill 15 outcasts" one.  Backstory was the Outcasts, who like to deal in dark magic items, had gotten too quiet recently so my contact sent me to "interview" some and look for clues.  First thing that happened was a small hit team jumped me as I was leaving a store even though I was in a different zone then where I was supposed to find them and was therefore unexpected.  Then I travelled to Steel Canyon to "interview" 10 more.  I found a clue on the 10th one.  A flyer intended for some crime groups in the city advertising a illict auction of stolen magic relics was being held at a certain date and time.  Followed that clue to my new timed indoor mission area and had a nice warehouse battle; there were actually foes from the Outcats, Tsoo, Circle of Thorns and even Hellions attending this auction, each with approrpiate little snippets of dialogue.  As a part of my bust I had to find 4 magic relics, and 2 of those relic granted me temporary powers.  One was a single use area affect dark magic scroll and another was a power that severely lowered a targets defense while doing damage over time to me (called a Circle of Pain).  Add in my 7 minute back and forth duel with the storm/ice boss with me out of inspirations and it was a helluva lot of fun.

All from a regular instanced mission.  It was level appropriate for me (Challenging but not impossible to solo), had a neat little story and made sense within the context of the gameworld.  An illicit magic auction attracts criminals from magic centered groups; the items in question were dark magic items that i could use when I found them; it was timed because it was an event that should occur at a specific time; a hit squad jumped me because they didn' t want me foiling their plans, etc.

Stuff like that is why I like CoH.

Xilren

"..but I'm by no means normal." - Schild
eldaec
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Reply #46 on: May 20, 2004, 10:18:42 AM

Quote from: El Gallo
Am I so bad for fantasizing about a game with both handcrafted dungeons and decent gameplay?  On second thought, don't answer that.


CoH has

A) handcrafted dungeons (both single-instance-open-to-all and multi-instanced-group-only)

and

B) decent gameplay.

People tend to forget that the dungeons in CoH are handcrafted and that they are not all multi-instanced just becuase the most fun thing to do (group door missions) happens to use the multi-instance ones.

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