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Author Topic: Loki  (Read 1231 times)
eldaec
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on: April 08, 2021, 04:55:34 AM

https://youtu.be/nW948Va-l10

I don't know if a whole series of it will get old, but I like the idea of the Owen Wilson / Tom Hiddleston scenes. Loki has only really had to interact with idiots up to this point.

"People will not assume that what they read on the internet is trustworthy or that it carries any particular ­assurance or accuracy" - Lord Leveson
"Hyperbole is a cancer" - Lakov Sanite
Khaldun
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Reply #1 on: April 08, 2021, 12:25:53 PM

I'm cautiously optimistic--it looks fun. Makes me wonder how this will go along with What If? and the 2nd Doctor Strange film. I'm good with multiversal/time-travel elements as long as they don't start to get so messy that the main universe becomes incoherent.
Raguel
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Reply #2 on: April 08, 2021, 04:34:56 PM

Never read any comics with TVA in them but I think Avengers Forever (written by Kurt Busiek, so it's good)  had them in there somewhere.

I suppose this is as close to a live action  Agent of Asgard as we'll see so I'll take it.

As an aside Agent of Asgard was great (my favorite iteration of Loki, including MCU Loki) and you should read it asap.
Khaldun
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Reply #3 on: April 08, 2021, 04:41:00 PM

My daughter and I both loved Agent of Asgard and I really so vastly preferred the Loki character it was depicting to boring Evil Loki (which I think? owed something to the MCU and Hiddleston? I would have to check the timing).

The TVA I think appeared first in Walter Simonson's really really weird run on Fantastic Four? Then Busiek has to reference it in his masterful but doomed attempt to make everything involving Kang and Immortus make sense.

That's the only thing that gives me pause in all of this: Kang as a character and time-travel/alternate realities as story-engines have had an ultimately incredibly destructive impact on Marvel storytelling over the years. I really, really hope they're careful with this--it can create an incredible mess.
Riggswolfe
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Reply #4 on: April 08, 2021, 06:09:31 PM

I haven't read any of the comics you guys are referencing but I get a bit of a Quantum Leap vibe from this trailer. Like Loki disappearing screwed things up and now "variant Loki" and Owen Wilson have to fix what once went wrong.

What I wonder is if they'll follow that to what I view as the ultimate conclusion which would be that this Variant doesn't belong in the universe of the MCU. If they're brave they'll make this a one shot like Wanda Vision which will end with variant Loki willingly ceasing to exist to fix the timeline.

"We live in a country, where John Lennon takes six bullets in the chest, Yoko Ono was standing right next to him and not one fucking bullet! Explain that to me! Explain that to me, God! Explain it to me, God!" - Denis Leary summing up my feelings about the nature of the universe.
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Reply #5 on: April 09, 2021, 08:49:32 AM

I think Hiddleston is a good Loki, but he does miss some very Loki behavior on the regular.

The part that bugs me in the trailer is when he's called out for stabbing people literally 40 times or whatever, his delivery of the line 'Well I wouldn't do it AGAIN' was very Hiddleston but not very Loki. Hiddleston is far better at the tortured Loki trying to be good (which is an important component of the character), but he misses the darker undercurrents. He under- or over-shoots them almost every time.

In the trailer, a better delivery to round out Loki and give him that Han Solo Episode 4 edge, would be putting a sinister grin over an innocent face on 'again', with knowing look, head turning down to gaze intently at (I think it was Wilson).

It's a small beat, but it's almost entirely missing from Hiddleston's portrayal. But the fact that he gets the rest down really well (esp in Ragnarok, maybe my favorite Marvel flick thus far), I can give it a pass. Just sticks out like a sore thumb when he misses a great chance to be more Loki.

I should note that Loki is kind of a thing for me, he is my patron. The brilliant yet bored mind that gets into mischief but then manages to save the day (from his own trouble, but never mind that). Classic me in the band years (not that I'm brilliant, other than relatively speaking)  Oh ho ho ho. Reallllly?

Trippy
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Reply #6 on: April 09, 2021, 05:00:11 PM

40 is also at least an order of magnitude or two too low for the number of people he's stabbed in his very long lifetime. On the other hand earlier trailers imply he does try to take advantage of his situation for his own benefit so we'll see.
Khaldun
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Reply #7 on: April 09, 2021, 09:15:35 PM

The fun Loki though in Marvel comics, pre-MCU, is recent. Mostly Marvel Loki is just jealous and sulky and motiveless in his evil beyond "I want to be king!"--he's a bad combination of Stan Lee AND Jack Kirby's worst story-telling impulses. (Everybody who wants to constantly tell the story of Kirby the Greatest Comics Hero ignores that Kirby was capable of laying a turd or two plus he and Stan together sometimes reinforced their own worst characterological instincts, it's just that Kirby had art to redeem his work). It's really only with Walter Simonson that Loki started to be fun AND more capable/visionary in his powers and his vision, but even then, he's still "I want to be king and I want Thor dead/humiliated" in a rather boring way.

I think the moment where the character really began to evolve was Loki standing with Thor and Odin against Surtur in the big conclusion to Simonson's original arc on Thor where Thor cries out "For Midgard!" and Odin cries out "For Asgard!" and Loki cries out "For myself!" but it's also clear that he's actually kind of into standing alongside his brother and his father in that moment.
MahrinSkel
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Reply #8 on: April 09, 2021, 10:26:12 PM

Before Hiddleston, Loki was a D-tier character. Like, even most people who followed The Mighty Thor weren't that invested in his chief nemesis, who was much more mustache twirler than Xanatos Gambit chessmaster in most issues he appeared in.

Hiddleston elevated the character, and he owns it now. Oh, and I think it was 40 times in 1500 years Loki *literally* stabbed someone in the back with a blade after gaining their trust. And his "but I won't do it *again*!" is deadpan farce. Even Loki doesn't expect that it will be believed, it's just part of the meta.

--Dave

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Sir T
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Reply #9 on: April 10, 2021, 02:02:00 AM

Ya, I read a bit of Mighty Thor when I was a kid and Loki was an extremely one note Character back then.  I read the description above and was going "who the hell is THAT guy?"

Sometimes irony is pretty ironic.
NowhereMan
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Reply #10 on: April 10, 2021, 03:18:57 AM

Yeah, I chuckled at Hiddleston's bit there and I think it might just be an aesthetic difference of opinion. Loki putting on an innocent face with a sinister grin (I guess you're describing a Solo style smirk there?) and winking at the camera would have oversold it. It did not come across as tortured or in anyway remorseful and I think intentionally farcical is probably a good way of describing it.

Also I agree that I think you're describing a character who exists more in your head than in the comics, I haven't really read anything in the last decade and wasn't a huge Thor reader but I don't remember him being much more than a straight up villain. Certainly not a vaguely whimsical, good time guy who's schemes were more for their own sake and certainly not someone who you'd expect to come good at the end. Much more Dr. Doom type villain who just wanted power.

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eldaec
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Reply #11 on: April 10, 2021, 06:19:26 AM

Read something from Hiddlestone where he mentioned that because this Loki is from directly at end of avengers, he sees Loki as full on bad guy at the start of this show. Then the show gives him another opportunity to develop Loki towards a more ambiguous character via a different path.

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"Hyperbole is a cancer" - Lakov Sanite
Threash
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Reply #12 on: April 10, 2021, 08:34:37 AM

By IW Loki was way past ambiguous, his arc ended with a heroic sacrifice.

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HaemishM
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Reply #13 on: April 10, 2021, 05:43:31 PM

Loki as a pure villain is very much a thing of the past - he's been a fairly ambivalent character for at least the last 15 years in the comics. Some of it is a result of new creators, some of it is explained away by the character dying and being resurrected, etc. The movie Loki has been much more in tune with the current character than the previous one, but Hiddlestone's portrayal has most certainly affected how the comics have utilized him (and he's been a she at times too).

Khaldun
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Reply #14 on: April 10, 2021, 07:36:30 PM

Basically Fun Mischief Loki explained it as "we've been through so many Ragnaroks and reboots and I more than most, I want to live and not become Dull Evil Loki again".

The thing is in Norse sagas, Loki only becomes Evil Loki out of accumulated resentment of the other Aesir, out of a sense that they don't give him his due, out of annoyance with Thor and maybe a little Odin in specific, out of a kind of underappointed and undermobilized capability for cleverness and malice--he's a trickster with a dynamic character arc who goes sour the closer things get to the end of everything.

So making comics Loki someone who just wants to be king is way underestimating the character's potential. Kudos to Hiddleston for pushing them towards something more.

That said, I would not be entirely surprised if this all ends with Loki becoming Kid Loki in the Young Avengers or Loki being in the Thunderbolts under Zemo's command.
Raguel
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Reply #15 on: April 11, 2021, 10:22:01 PM

People are speculating, based on casting,  that kid Loki, Lady Loki, and Old Loki (presumably from AoA run) are all in this. I'm curious who Lady Loki will be though. Will it just be Loki as a woman or Loki taking over Sif's body?
eldaec
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Reply #16 on: May 08, 2021, 09:42:02 AM


"People will not assume that what they read on the internet is trustworthy or that it carries any particular ­assurance or accuracy" - Lord Leveson
"Hyperbole is a cancer" - Lakov Sanite
Raguel
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Reply #17 on: May 08, 2021, 10:40:13 AM

eldaec
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Reply #18 on: June 09, 2021, 07:10:04 AM

This was fun. Slower and more earnest than I expected - pushed way harder and more explicitly than I would have thought on trying to make the TVA make sense and addressing the who is loki question. But Wilson and Hiddleston were both great in the centre of it.

I'm very glad they didn't try to make the villian into a big mystery.

"People will not assume that what they read on the internet is trustworthy or that it carries any particular ­assurance or accuracy" - Lord Leveson
"Hyperbole is a cancer" - Lakov Sanite
Threash
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Reply #19 on: June 09, 2021, 01:35:39 PM

Loved this, would not be surprised if Loki does end up burning the whole thing to the ground by the end of it. We are getting a multiverse somehow. Loved the small details like the drawer being mostly time stones.

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Raguel
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Reply #20 on: June 09, 2021, 04:53:13 PM


Yeah this is "Loki: Agent of TVA", complete with one version of  Loki seeing Odin tell another Loki that he loved him, and (eventually I'm guessing) Loki vs. Loki. Evil Loki is almost certainly Lady Loki (else why hide him? Although I suppose Old Man Loki works as well). I really like to know what set this version off.

I think I would have liked this more if I hadn't seen the trailers. I feel like I knew the major story beats ahead of time.

BTW in case any non comic book nerds are wondering, in the comics the infinity gems (stones in the movies) don't work outside their universe of origin.
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Threash
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Reply #21 on: June 09, 2021, 04:56:26 PM

I recognized her as the girl from San Junipero.

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MahrinSkel
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Reply #22 on: June 09, 2021, 09:17:16 PM

I think I would have liked this more if I hadn't seen the trailers. I feel like I knew the major story beats ahead of time.
I never watch trailers for something I'm already 100% going to see. No upside in it. Either I don't understand what I'm seeing, so why bother, or I do, in which case I'm spoiling it (if the work is trying to make it look like a character might die, a trailer scene with them in it that hasn't happened yet ruins the tension).

--Dave

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MediumHigh
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Reply #23 on: June 10, 2021, 09:28:05 PM

Welp this is good. It took like Wanda Vision like 6 episodes to get this good (and i skipped like 3) and  Falcon/Winter Solider 4 episodes to build up enough momentum to be as good as the first episode of Loki.

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Raguel
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Reply #24 on: June 16, 2021, 07:48:01 PM

Really liked this episode.

There's stuff on the internet claiming to know the true identity of the variant the TVA is after

. I don't know if that's true or not. Honestly it's the first I've heard of this character. But what I really want to talk about is the assumption I made that the variant would be "evil." I've come around to the possibility that the variant may actually be "good" and the costume sort of suggested that.
MahrinSkel
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When she crossed over, she was just a ship. But when she came back... she was bullshit!


Reply #25 on: June 16, 2021, 08:41:26 PM

Well, if you want to get philosophical about it, the TVA is the most rigid autocratic dictatorship *possible*. Literally every action by every being anywhere and any time has to be exactly what the TVA wants, and if some poor schmuck accidentally engages in free will, they vaporize the dumb bastard.

You don't have to be the God of Mischief, pathologically driven to "write your own story" to think that's all kinds of fucked up.

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« Last Edit: June 16, 2021, 08:49:25 PM by MahrinSkel »

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Khaldun
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Reply #26 on: June 16, 2021, 10:01:56 PM

I liked it.

I'm not gonna speculate this time, just because I'm always wrong anyway.

RoxxonMart seemed to have pretty much all the same products as WalMart today, how about that. I guess we really stagnated for good in 2020.
eldaec
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Reply #27 on: Today at 02:10:06 AM

Still loving Wilson and Hiddleston sitting and chatting. Unsure how I would feel about an episode without them together.

They really undercut the reveal by hammering those pronouns for 45 minutes beforehand.

Feels like a super long directors cut version of a movie more than TV show. I can't quite decide if it is over indulgent or great.

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Reply #28 on: Today at 11:22:51 AM

This show has been excellent so far!  Acting from everybody involved has been pretty top notch, and plotting remains tight.

I only have one minor quibble with it (which doesn't get in the way of my enjoyment at all because rule of cool):  For as powerful and mighty (as Loki even noted) the TVA is supposed to be, they do a really bad job of projecting that on screen.  Like, they're just some random dudes in riot armor with batons.  They get beat up and stabbed to death pretty damned easy.  They appear to have no real special powers or technology to help them much, other than a magic stick they need to hit somebody with to do anything.  How the heck are they supposed to do deal with a variant Hulk?  Thanos?  Ironman?  Or even a random redneck with a shotgun?

I don't mind it because 1.)  You can instantly change that with one line of text saying they carry magic guns that can erase anything no matter how powerful, instead of sticks that do the same.  So it's not hard to imagine them just doing that.  2.)  Everything about the TVA is heavily stylized and anachronistic, so it's just fun to nod along with it all.
« Last Edit: Today at 11:29:07 AM by Teleku »

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Khaldun
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Reply #29 on: Today at 03:55:51 PM

Since we seem to be heading for a multiverse, maybe it will turn out that there's not very many beings who commonly generate 'variants' and the TVA doesn't even try to deal with some of them but leaves that to others (aka Earth's Sorcerer Supreme and the Time Gem--the Ancient One told Hulk/Banner a story rather similar to the one the TVA tells...).

I have my suspicions on that score anyway given the name of the head TVA honcho--that the whole thing is an elaborate fake but that some TVA agents believe it's all true. I kind of think Loki thinks the same thing.
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Reply #30 on: Today at 07:22:02 PM

I think they've been pretty clear on what's what.

TheWalrus
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Reply #31 on: Today at 09:08:25 PM

  How the heck are they supposed to do deal with a variant Hulk?  Thanos?  Ironman?  Or even a random redneck with a shotgun?

They really only have a problem because the Variant they're currently pursuing is aware of them and their strategies.

A variant Hulk, Thanos or other would be much easier because of the surprise factor. Wait around a corner, zap.

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