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on: April 08, 2021, 04:55:34 AM


I don't know if a whole series of it will get old, but I like the idea of the Owen Wilson / Tom Hiddleston scenes. Loki has only really had to interact with idiots up to this point.

"People will not assume that what they read on the internet is trustworthy or that it carries any particular ­assurance or accuracy" - Lord Leveson
"Hyperbole is a cancer" - Lakov Sanite
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Reply #1 on: April 08, 2021, 12:25:53 PM

I'm cautiously optimistic--it looks fun. Makes me wonder how this will go along with What If? and the 2nd Doctor Strange film. I'm good with multiversal/time-travel elements as long as they don't start to get so messy that the main universe becomes incoherent.
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Reply #2 on: April 08, 2021, 04:34:56 PM

Never read any comics with TVA in them but I think Avengers Forever (written by Kurt Busiek, so it's good)  had them in there somewhere.

I suppose this is as close to a live action  Agent of Asgard as we'll see so I'll take it.

As an aside Agent of Asgard was great (my favorite iteration of Loki, including MCU Loki) and you should read it asap.
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Reply #3 on: April 08, 2021, 04:41:00 PM

My daughter and I both loved Agent of Asgard and I really so vastly preferred the Loki character it was depicting to boring Evil Loki (which I think? owed something to the MCU and Hiddleston? I would have to check the timing).

The TVA I think appeared first in Walter Simonson's really really weird run on Fantastic Four? Then Busiek has to reference it in his masterful but doomed attempt to make everything involving Kang and Immortus make sense.

That's the only thing that gives me pause in all of this: Kang as a character and time-travel/alternate realities as story-engines have had an ultimately incredibly destructive impact on Marvel storytelling over the years. I really, really hope they're careful with this--it can create an incredible mess.
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Reply #4 on: April 08, 2021, 06:09:31 PM

I haven't read any of the comics you guys are referencing but I get a bit of a Quantum Leap vibe from this trailer. Like Loki disappearing screwed things up and now "variant Loki" and Owen Wilson have to fix what once went wrong.

What I wonder is if they'll follow that to what I view as the ultimate conclusion which would be that this Variant doesn't belong in the universe of the MCU. If they're brave they'll make this a one shot like Wanda Vision which will end with variant Loki willingly ceasing to exist to fix the timeline.

"We live in a country, where John Lennon takes six bullets in the chest, Yoko Ono was standing right next to him and not one fucking bullet! Explain that to me! Explain that to me, God! Explain it to me, God!" - Denis Leary summing up my feelings about the nature of the universe.
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Reply #5 on: April 09, 2021, 08:49:32 AM

I think Hiddleston is a good Loki, but he does miss some very Loki behavior on the regular.

The part that bugs me in the trailer is when he's called out for stabbing people literally 40 times or whatever, his delivery of the line 'Well I wouldn't do it AGAIN' was very Hiddleston but not very Loki. Hiddleston is far better at the tortured Loki trying to be good (which is an important component of the character), but he misses the darker undercurrents. He under- or over-shoots them almost every time.

In the trailer, a better delivery to round out Loki and give him that Han Solo Episode 4 edge, would be putting a sinister grin over an innocent face on 'again', with knowing look, head turning down to gaze intently at (I think it was Wilson).

It's a small beat, but it's almost entirely missing from Hiddleston's portrayal. But the fact that he gets the rest down really well (esp in Ragnarok, maybe my favorite Marvel flick thus far), I can give it a pass. Just sticks out like a sore thumb when he misses a great chance to be more Loki.

I should note that Loki is kind of a thing for me, he is my patron. The brilliant yet bored mind that gets into mischief but then manages to save the day (from his own trouble, but never mind that). Classic me in the band years (not that I'm brilliant, other than relatively speaking)  Oh ho ho ho. Reallllly?

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Reply #6 on: April 09, 2021, 05:00:11 PM

40 is also at least an order of magnitude or two too low for the number of people he's stabbed in his very long lifetime. On the other hand earlier trailers imply he does try to take advantage of his situation for his own benefit so we'll see.
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Reply #7 on: April 09, 2021, 09:15:35 PM

The fun Loki though in Marvel comics, pre-MCU, is recent. Mostly Marvel Loki is just jealous and sulky and motiveless in his evil beyond "I want to be king!"--he's a bad combination of Stan Lee AND Jack Kirby's worst story-telling impulses. (Everybody who wants to constantly tell the story of Kirby the Greatest Comics Hero ignores that Kirby was capable of laying a turd or two plus he and Stan together sometimes reinforced their own worst characterological instincts, it's just that Kirby had art to redeem his work). It's really only with Walter Simonson that Loki started to be fun AND more capable/visionary in his powers and his vision, but even then, he's still "I want to be king and I want Thor dead/humiliated" in a rather boring way.

I think the moment where the character really began to evolve was Loki standing with Thor and Odin against Surtur in the big conclusion to Simonson's original arc on Thor where Thor cries out "For Midgard!" and Odin cries out "For Asgard!" and Loki cries out "For myself!" but it's also clear that he's actually kind of into standing alongside his brother and his father in that moment.
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Reply #8 on: April 09, 2021, 10:26:12 PM

Before Hiddleston, Loki was a D-tier character. Like, even most people who followed The Mighty Thor weren't that invested in his chief nemesis, who was much more mustache twirler than Xanatos Gambit chessmaster in most issues he appeared in.

Hiddleston elevated the character, and he owns it now. Oh, and I think it was 40 times in 1500 years Loki *literally* stabbed someone in the back with a blade after gaining their trust. And his "but I won't do it *again*!" is deadpan farce. Even Loki doesn't expect that it will be believed, it's just part of the meta.


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Reply #9 on: April 10, 2021, 02:02:00 AM

Ya, I read a bit of Mighty Thor when I was a kid and Loki was an extremely one note Character back then.  I read the description above and was going "who the hell is THAT guy?"

Sometimes irony is pretty ironic.
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Reply #10 on: April 10, 2021, 03:18:57 AM

Yeah, I chuckled at Hiddleston's bit there and I think it might just be an aesthetic difference of opinion. Loki putting on an innocent face with a sinister grin (I guess you're describing a Solo style smirk there?) and winking at the camera would have oversold it. It did not come across as tortured or in anyway remorseful and I think intentionally farcical is probably a good way of describing it.

Also I agree that I think you're describing a character who exists more in your head than in the comics, I haven't really read anything in the last decade and wasn't a huge Thor reader but I don't remember him being much more than a straight up villain. Certainly not a vaguely whimsical, good time guy who's schemes were more for their own sake and certainly not someone who you'd expect to come good at the end. Much more Dr. Doom type villain who just wanted power.

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Reply #11 on: April 10, 2021, 06:19:26 AM

Read something from Hiddlestone where he mentioned that because this Loki is from directly at end of avengers, he sees Loki as full on bad guy at the start of this show. Then the show gives him another opportunity to develop Loki towards a more ambiguous character via a different path.

"People will not assume that what they read on the internet is trustworthy or that it carries any particular ­assurance or accuracy" - Lord Leveson
"Hyperbole is a cancer" - Lakov Sanite
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Reply #12 on: April 10, 2021, 08:34:37 AM

By IW Loki was way past ambiguous, his arc ended with a heroic sacrifice.

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Reply #13 on: April 10, 2021, 05:43:31 PM

Loki as a pure villain is very much a thing of the past - he's been a fairly ambivalent character for at least the last 15 years in the comics. Some of it is a result of new creators, some of it is explained away by the character dying and being resurrected, etc. The movie Loki has been much more in tune with the current character than the previous one, but Hiddlestone's portrayal has most certainly affected how the comics have utilized him (and he's been a she at times too).

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Reply #14 on: April 10, 2021, 07:36:30 PM

Basically Fun Mischief Loki explained it as "we've been through so many Ragnaroks and reboots and I more than most, I want to live and not become Dull Evil Loki again".

The thing is in Norse sagas, Loki only becomes Evil Loki out of accumulated resentment of the other Aesir, out of a sense that they don't give him his due, out of annoyance with Thor and maybe a little Odin in specific, out of a kind of underappointed and undermobilized capability for cleverness and malice--he's a trickster with a dynamic character arc who goes sour the closer things get to the end of everything.

So making comics Loki someone who just wants to be king is way underestimating the character's potential. Kudos to Hiddleston for pushing them towards something more.

That said, I would not be entirely surprised if this all ends with Loki becoming Kid Loki in the Young Avengers or Loki being in the Thunderbolts under Zemo's command.
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Reply #15 on: April 11, 2021, 10:22:01 PM

People are speculating, based on casting,  that kid Loki, Lady Loki, and Old Loki (presumably from AoA run) are all in this. I'm curious who Lady Loki will be though. Will it just be Loki as a woman or Loki taking over Sif's body?
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