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Author Topic: Star Wars 9 : The Rise of Skywalker  (Read 135307 times)
Goumindong
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Reply #700 on: April 16, 2020, 12:13:15 AM

...
Yes. But i am discounting this plan as the "plan that Johnson totally changed everything on" because he uhhh... clearly didn't change anything on it...
If you ignore that Rian Johnson said he threw out JJ's outline, and that JJ said Johnson was throwing out his outline.

Yes, they had to pick up the story where JJ left off.  But:

* JJ had plans for who Rey was.  Johnson nixed it.  JJ reinstated it.
* JJ gave the mask of Ren significance.  Johnson discarded it.  JJ reinstated it, and then paid off the destruction of it in a meaningful way.

There are a lot of examples of this type of thing all throughout the trilogy.  JJ starts it, Johnson nixes it, JJ reinstates it. 

But I am done talking about these shitty movies.  I'm waiting for what comes next and hoping I'm right that they're more Mandalorian than anything else.
I 100% do not believe Mr Mystery "i don't even want to open my presents to find out what is inside them" Box had any plans for Rey or the mask(which ended up having zero significance in RoS any-fucking way!). So saying that JJ's vague "there are totally plans" comments refers to that and not what RJ clearly and obviously ran with and expanded from TFA makes 100% no sense to me.

JJ is also the guy who told me that Into Darkness definitely 100% would not have Kahn in it. So...
Draegan
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Reply #701 on: April 16, 2020, 07:30:56 AM

I think it's pretty stupid that JJ had zero idea where the characters were going. At the very least he had a general outline of the plot points on where to go next. Whether or not they were good, that's another story. What is mindfucking is that Disney allowed RJ to just ratfuck everything and then allow JJ to ratfuck and hamfist it even more.

It all looks stupid. How Kathleen Kennedy still has a job who the fuck knows.
Cyrrex
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Reply #702 on: April 16, 2020, 09:32:53 AM

It all looks stupid. How Kathleen Kennedy still has a job who the fuck knows.

She wasn't even good at it before she got power over the whole thing.  She let the same things happen in the EU writings.

"...maybe if you cleaned the piss out of the sunny d bottles under your desks and returned em, you could upgrade you vid cards, fucken lusers.." - Grunk
jgsugden
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Reply #703 on: April 16, 2020, 12:39:56 PM

...
JJ is also the guy who told me that Into Darkness definitely 100% would not have Kahn in it. So...
Dog. Bone.

He was intentionally trying to mislead to preserve a twist.  If you can't see how that is different, well fuck.  I won't bother with you.

2020 will be the year I gave up all hope.
Samwise
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Reply #704 on: April 16, 2020, 01:15:37 PM

They need to give it to QT and let it be a hard R.

First thing I thought when I heard that they were going to have different directors do the sequels was "oh man, I hope Tarantino gets one."  Alas.

"I have not actually recommended many games, and I'll go on the record here saying my track record is probably best in the industry." - schild
BobtheSomething
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Reply #705 on: April 16, 2020, 01:29:42 PM

...
JJ is also the guy who told me that Into Darkness definitely 100% would not have Kahn in it. So...
Dog. Bone.

He was intentionally trying to mislead to preserve a twist.  If you can't see how that is different, well fuck.  I won't bother with you.

Just like he was intentionally trying to mislead the audience by saying he had a plan to preserve the idea that his films are worth watching and he isnít a hack?  If you canít see how JI has handled every project heís ever worked on, well fuck.

As to the idea that he had plans for the characters...Have you ever seen JJís stuff before?  He doesnít do characters. He does scenes.  His characters might revert to some easy archetype when allowed, but mostly they exist to set up the scene he wants to shoot and then the next scene and the next.  Their pasts are mystery boxes and so are their futures.  And they all talk with the same grammatical cadance and vocabulary.  Every resolution in his films feels unearned because he doesnít know how to write character growth.
Draegan
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Reply #706 on: April 16, 2020, 01:33:19 PM

It all looks stupid. How Kathleen Kennedy still has a job who the fuck knows.

She wasn't even good at it before she got power over the whole thing.  She let the same things happen in the EU writings.

No one really cares about the EU writings.
jgsugden
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Reply #707 on: April 16, 2020, 04:04:04 PM

F13.NET
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DUMBFUCKERY

2020 will be the year I gave up all hope.
Goumindong
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Reply #708 on: April 16, 2020, 04:53:56 PM

...
JJ is also the guy who told me that Into Darkness definitely 100% would not have Kahn in it. So...
Dog. Bone.

He was intentionally trying to mislead to preserve a twist.  If you can't see how that is different, well fuck.  I won't bother with you.

And you think he might have no ulterior motive after TLJ was out? Yea OK. JJ has only ever been perfectly honest with his public statements and would never say anything that benefitted him or his studio if it wasnt true.

The only evidence we have of a plan is the one RJ followed. Both the explicit follow through on the film for each of the three main characters and the direct follow through from things made explicit in TFA. The idea that there was wide variance in plotting from TFA to TLJ is stupid from stupids.

And if there was a differing idea on reys parentage, which is about the only thing that possibly could have been changed then RJ was right to do it because Rey being a secret Palpatine(or related to any main characters) is the stupidest thing.
jgsugden
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Reply #709 on: April 16, 2020, 06:15:03 PM

...
And you think he might have no ulterior motive after TLJ was out? Yea OK. JJ has only ever been perfectly honest with his public statements and would never say anything that benefitted him or his studio if it wasnt true.
They both said it before TLJ was released, but please go on with your misinformation.  It has come back around to being amusing again.
Quote
The only evidence we have of a plan is the one RJ followed. Both the explicit follow through on the film for each of the three main characters and the direct follow through from things made explicit in TFA. The idea that there was wide variance in plotting from TFA to TLJ is stupid from stupids.
Except for the undeniable fact that both JJ and Johnson said that Johnson was not following JJ's plan, Johnson clearly undid a lot of what JJ had established (meaning he changed a course of action - you known the plan...), and JJ and Johnson, as I have repeatedly noted - said all that shit BEFORE TLJ WAS RELEASED. 
Quote
And if there was a differing idea on reys parentage, which is about the only thing that possibly could have been changed ...
Ö? WTF?  Do you think this was the only thing in the movie?  I'm back to not being amused by your tom fuckery.[/quote]Ö then RJ was right to do it because Rey being a secret Palpatine(or related to any main characters) is the stupidest thing.[/quote] Ö because there is absolutely nothing establish in Star Wars showing the force can run in a family, especially the family of a powerful force wielder. 

NOBODY IS FUCKING DEFENDING JJ'S STORY.  Whether it sucked or not is not the question.  He had a plan.  Do I think it was detailed?  No.  It was not a scene by scene plan for three films, certainly - but it was a rough outline - probably several pages long - that addressed all the big questions.  Do I think it was good?  No.  It was bad for JJ, even.  However, everything points to there being a plan, and that he had to massively adapt it after RJ treated the plan like Chipotle treats your ass.

I'll tell you what to do here to further augment your understanding - Go do some research on musical cues in Star Wars.  The music is often the biggest spoiler in Star Wars.  Look at the write up of the musical themes being used in different parts of TFA.  They foreshadow the original plan. 

2020 will be the year I gave up all hope.
Cyrrex
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Reply #710 on: April 17, 2020, 12:08:27 AM

It all looks stupid. How Kathleen Kennedy still has a job who the fuck knows.

She wasn't even good at it before she got power over the whole thing.  She let the same things happen in the EU writings.

No one really cares about the EU writings.

I know, the point being simply that she was shit at controlling a cohesive narrative there with a bunch of nobody authors, and somehow failed spectacularly upwards and let the same thing happen to one of the most valuable IPs that exists.  She's always been terrible at her job.

"...maybe if you cleaned the piss out of the sunny d bottles under your desks and returned em, you could upgrade you vid cards, fucken lusers.." - Grunk
Goumindong
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Reply #711 on: April 17, 2020, 05:40:28 AM

WTF?  Do you think this was the only thing in the movie? 

It really is. I don't know maybe JJ had deep plans about Luke's X-wing not being underwater or something? That would be very like him, the minute attention to thematic and plotting detail.
Samwise
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Reply #712 on: April 17, 2020, 10:20:27 AM

holy shit I just realized jgsuden is still white-knighting JJ Abrams after like three pages

 Popcorn

"I have not actually recommended many games, and I'll go on the record here saying my track record is probably best in the industry." - schild
Cyrrex
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Reply #713 on: April 17, 2020, 10:33:36 AM

He might as well just marry him.

"...maybe if you cleaned the piss out of the sunny d bottles under your desks and returned em, you could upgrade you vid cards, fucken lusers.." - Grunk
jgsugden
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Reply #714 on: April 17, 2020, 10:54:17 AM

Ö.
NOBODY IS FUCKING DEFENDING JJ'S STORY.  Whether it sucked or not is not the question...
Reading comprehension is cool, kids.

2020 will be the year I gave up all hope.
Khaldun
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Reply #715 on: April 17, 2020, 09:31:29 PM

...
JJ is also the guy who told me that Into Darkness definitely 100% would not have Kahn in it. So...
Dog. Bone.

He was intentionally trying to mislead to preserve a twist.  If you can't see how that is different, well fuck.  I won't bother with you.

Ah man. Seriously. Come up for air. Rejoin the human race. Stop reading the Internet.
Riggswolfe
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Reply #716 on: April 20, 2020, 02:05:13 AM

...
JJ is also the guy who told me that Into Darkness definitely 100% would not have Kahn in it. So...
Dog. Bone.

He was intentionally trying to mislead to preserve a twist.  If you can't see how that is different, well fuck.  I won't bother with you.

And you think he might have no ulterior motive after TLJ was out? Yea OK. JJ has only ever been perfectly honest with his public statements and would never say anything that benefitted him or his studio if it wasnt true.

The only evidence we have of a plan is the one RJ followed. Both the explicit follow through on the film for each of the three main characters and the direct follow through from things made explicit in TFA. The idea that there was wide variance in plotting from TFA to TLJ is stupid from stupids.

And if there was a differing idea on reys parentage, which is about the only thing that possibly could have been changed then RJ was right to do it because Rey being a secret Palpatine(or related to any main characters) is the stupidest thing.

Ok, putting aside all the JJ stuff the idea that Rian Johnson followed a plan of any kind is laughable. He explicitly said he didn't. JJ said he didn't. You can almost literally see him discarding plot points left and right throughout the runtime of The Last Jedi. He looked at all the setup TFA did and was like "Nah, fuck that, I want to deconstruct Star Wars in the middle of a trilogy because that's the perfect time to do it." Whether or not you think the setup in TFA was any good is beside the point. Veering hard right in the middle part of a trilogy just doesn't work unless there is a clear plan.

The supreme irony of all this is if you look at Knives Out it actually does more or less what this trilogy does and succeeds beautifully. Act 1 looks like 1 thing, Act 2 changes to another thing, Act 3 reverts back to what Act 1 was. I actually like Rian Johnson. I think he is a better writer and director than JJ 99% of the time. But he stepped on a rake and hit himself in the face with TLJ.




"We live in a country, where John Lennon takes six bullets in the chest, Yoko Ono was standing right next to him and not one fucking bullet! Explain that to me! Explain that to me, God! Explain it to me, God!" - Denis Leary summing up my feelings about the nature of the universe.
Goumindong
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Reply #717 on: April 20, 2020, 02:34:04 AM

What was thrown out? Legit what is shown in TFA and then thrown out?
Tebonas
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Reply #718 on: April 20, 2020, 06:41:32 AM

I like Rian Johnson, Knives Out was the best film I saw this year in cinema (and thanks to Corona that will likely be true till 2021).

So I'm perfectly fine with laying the blame on JJ "I've good an idea for a twist, you guys figure the rest out" Abrams.

But while it is entertaining to read, you guys put more thoughts into this than everybody involved in this last trilogy combined.
jgsugden
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Reply #719 on: April 20, 2020, 07:07:22 AM

What was thrown out? Legit what is shown in TFA and then thrown out?
See above.  Where it was explained a few dozen times.

2020 will be the year I gave up all hope.
Riggswolfe
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Reply #720 on: April 20, 2020, 07:25:00 AM

What was thrown out? Legit what is shown in TFA and then thrown out?

The fact you're asking makes me wonder if you watched either movie.

"We live in a country, where John Lennon takes six bullets in the chest, Yoko Ono was standing right next to him and not one fucking bullet! Explain that to me! Explain that to me, God! Explain it to me, God!" - Denis Leary summing up my feelings about the nature of the universe.
jgsugden
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Reply #721 on: April 20, 2020, 09:16:29 AM

...
The fact you're asking makes me wonder if you watched either movie.
I mean, he has a point.  There were Stars and Wars in both, and that is basically all there is to Star Wars.

2020 will be the year I gave up all hope.
Goumindong
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Reply #722 on: April 20, 2020, 08:36:16 PM

What was thrown out? Legit what is shown in TFA and then thrown out?
See above.  Where it was explained a few dozen times.

See above where? The thread is 20 pages long and it hasn't been in the last few.
What was thrown out? Legit what is shown in TFA and then thrown out?

The fact you're asking makes me wonder if you watched either movie.

I have seen both a half a dozen times. There really isn't much of anything changed from TFA to TLJ.
Riggswolfe
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Reply #723 on: April 20, 2020, 09:05:13 PM


What was thrown out? Legit what is shown in TFA and then thrown out?

It's not even worth going into. You're not even discussing things in good faith if you're insisting nothing was thrown out. So many plot threads were discarded that people accused JJ of doing the same to TLJ in this movie purely because he was being petty about how much of his plot Rian ignored. You're literally the only person I've ever run into that is trying to pretend that plot threads weren't discarded left and right. Even my daughter who is far from a huge Star Wars fan was like "why did Last Jedi ignore so much stuff from the Force Awakens?" when she saw it.

"We live in a country, where John Lennon takes six bullets in the chest, Yoko Ono was standing right next to him and not one fucking bullet! Explain that to me! Explain that to me, God! Explain it to me, God!" - Denis Leary summing up my feelings about the nature of the universe.
Goumindong
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Reply #724 on: April 20, 2020, 09:22:19 PM

I suppose if you cant tell me what was ignored then i don't know what to say.

But for real i don't know what it is you're referring to. The only times i've seen things mentioned they were... not in TFA. Usually people are all "Luke totally wouldn't have been like he was" when it was all but spelled out that he was. Luke doesn't come rushing back when Han dies. So he pretty much must be cut off from the force. Its explicitly laid out that Luke abandoned the galaxy when Kylo destroyed the temple. The other big one is "Finn wouldnt run away from the fight he was a rebel" which... no that does not happen in TFA. Or "why is the first order attacking so close after taking down starkiller?" when its explicitly mentioned that attacking starkiller would give them away and that they would have to immediately relocate in TFA... Etc etc.

Edit: Though in this one we do have two new ones

"TFA set it up for Rey to be important but in TLJ she wasn't important despite being the main character and having every aspect of the movie revolve around her character growth"

and

"TFA set up for Kylo's mask to mean something but in TLJ it didn't mean anything because the rejection of that symbolism and the mirroring of the symbolism with the broken mask of vader threw that unmentioned, described, or themed symbolism that JJ was totally planning out the window"

I don't know how to answer these statements if these are supposed to be "things in TFA that TLJ threw away"
« Last Edit: April 20, 2020, 09:28:17 PM by Goumindong »
Rendakor
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Reply #725 on: April 20, 2020, 09:33:45 PM

Rei's parents/origin is the big one. TFA implies that her parents matter, TLJ says her parents were no one, RoS her grandpa is Palpatine.

Snoke is another one. Mysterious big bad in TFA, instantly killed in TLJ.

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BobtheSomething
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Reply #726 on: April 20, 2020, 09:54:20 PM

Rei's parents/origin is the big one. TFA implies that her parents matter, TLJ says her parents were no one, RoS her grandpa is Palpatine.

Snoke is another one. Mysterious big bad in TFA, instantly killed in TLJ.

Both of these mystery boxes were handled properly by RJ.  Snokeís death and its aftermath is one of the best scenes in that movie.  Rey Palpatine is beyond stupid. 
jgsugden
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Reply #727 on: April 20, 2020, 10:11:40 PM

That is irrelevant.  You're talking about whether RJ told a good story, not whether he entirely rewrote the story outline.

2020 will be the year I gave up all hope.
Riggswolfe
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Reply #728 on: April 20, 2020, 10:31:56 PM

I'm not going to type it all out but every single character arc from TFA is undone in TLJ. The worst is of course Rey. TFA goes out of its way to say "Her parents are an important part of her character." She talks about them constantly. The only vision she sees from her life when she touches the Skywalker saber is a vision of her parents leaving. And TLJ reduces that all to "LULZ! THEY WERE JUNKIES!"

Luke is arguable because we have no idea why he was on that planet for 10 years beyond he went into hiding when Kylo turned. I honestly thought it was a sort of Yoda self-exile situation but the idea he cut himself off from the force because otherwise he'd have come running when Han died is just lazy writing.



"We live in a country, where John Lennon takes six bullets in the chest, Yoko Ono was standing right next to him and not one fucking bullet! Explain that to me! Explain that to me, God! Explain it to me, God!" - Denis Leary summing up my feelings about the nature of the universe.
Goumindong
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Reply #729 on: April 21, 2020, 12:25:17 AM

Rei's parents/origin is the big one. TFA implies that her parents matter, TLJ says her parents were no one, RoS her grandpa is Palpatine.

Snoke is another one. Mysterious big bad in TFA, instantly killed in TLJ.

OK so... TFA does not imply that her parents matter. It implies that her parents matter to her. Which is... 100% a different thing. Rey's initial motivation in TFA is to get back to Jakku so she can meet her parents when they're totally coming back for her. She is over this by the end of TFA (hence why she goes to Luke and not back to Jakku) She leaves TFA still in a mindset that someone is going to come rescue her. In TFA its her parents. In TLJ is Luke Skywalker. She traded one for another (while not abandoning the hope that her parents were going to return). TLJ does not have Rey abandon her parents. Its still 100% fucking central to her character. She is tempted by the dark side because she wants to know who her parents were! Her learning who her parents were capstones her character arc in the movie! And its the acceptance that they did not matter, not because who they were isn't important, but because its the choices you make going forward that do. She has the choice to "be someone" by accepting Kylo's proposal and ruling the galaxy with him and having that "important parentage" that she always wanted. But she refuses because character growth is good.

Snoke was never the villain in TFA. He was a macguffin. If there are any "plans for Snoke" they are not in TFA. They're in your imagination of what is in TFA, not what was filmed.

I'm not going to type it all out but every single character arc from TFA is undone in TLJ. The worst is of course Rey. TFA goes out of its way to say "Her parents are an important part of her character." She talks about them constantly. The only vision she sees from her life when she touches the Skywalker saber is a vision of her parents leaving. And TLJ reduces that all to "LULZ! THEY WERE JUNKIES!"

Luke is arguable because we have no idea why he was on that planet for 10 years beyond he went into hiding when Kylo turned. I honestly thought it was a sort of Yoda self-exile situation but the idea he cut himself off from the force because otherwise he'd have come running when Han died is just lazy writing.


Luke Skywalkers main character driver for all the movies he has been in is that he would come running when he thought his friends were in danger. Its the primary underpinning of his arc in ESB and RoTJ AND TLJ. That is the lesson that he was imparting to Rey. (Go and save your friends it will work out). His failure to do that more or less means he was cut off from the force. You might say that "he cut himself off from the force and that is why he didn't come running when Han died" is lazy writing. BUT JJ WROTE IT.  And Johnson did not abandon it.

Here is some more stuff about Luke that we know in TFA

"Han : He was training a new generation of Jedi. One boy, an apprentice, turned against him, destroyed it all. Luke felt responsible. He just walked away from everything.

Finn: Do you know what happened to him?

Han Solo: A lot of rumors. Stories. People that knew him best think he went looking for the first Jedi temple."

Han Solo told it to your fucking face. But no.... JJ had plans that Johnson abandoned!


« Last Edit: April 21, 2020, 12:34:42 AM by Goumindong »
Riggswolfe
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Reply #730 on: April 21, 2020, 07:20:38 AM

Nowhere in all of TFA is a single thing said about Luke cutting himself off from the Force. All that is really said is the part you quoted, that he went looking for the first Jedi Temple. Anyway, you've rewritten TFA in your head so that TLJ magically didn't change things. So, I'm done here.

"We live in a country, where John Lennon takes six bullets in the chest, Yoko Ono was standing right next to him and not one fucking bullet! Explain that to me! Explain that to me, God! Explain it to me, God!" - Denis Leary summing up my feelings about the nature of the universe.
Draegan
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Reply #731 on: April 21, 2020, 08:08:43 AM

The dude is an idiot. Why are you bothering.
jgsugden
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Reply #732 on: April 21, 2020, 08:37:31 AM

Enough.  This thread has been locked.


Worth a shot.

2020 will be the year I gave up all hope.
Khaldun
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Reply #733 on: April 21, 2020, 08:56:36 AM

deleted
Trippy
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Reply #734 on: April 21, 2020, 11:13:12 AM

Enough.  This thread has been locked.


Worth a shot.
LOL.

I haven't watched it yet (waiting for Disney+), though I guess I could lock it and then reopen it after I do.
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