Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
May 09, 2021, 05:57:45 PM

Login with username, password and session length

Search:     Advanced search
*
Home Help Search Login Register
f13.net  |  f13.net General Forums  |  General Discussion  |  Movies  |  Topic: Justice League 0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Pages: 1 ... 3 4 [5] 6 7 Go Down Print
Author Topic: Justice League  (Read 32494 times)
HaemishM
Staff Emeritus
Posts: 41826

the Confederate flag underneath the stone in my class ring


WWW
Reply #140 on: March 19, 2021, 11:01:40 PM

God, I finally made it through this. What an arduous journey.

It's not good, by any stretch of the imagination. It's certainly not "worth" going through 4 goddamn hours to get to the new stuff that is actually better than the theatrical version. That said, the final set piece is a huge improvement over the theatrical release. It makes more sense and flows better, not to mention the fact that Flash actually has a much better role (they never even go into the "I've never fought anyone" thing). However, once it's done, there's another 20+ minutes, some of which has a tenuous grip on being necessary.

Synder never needs to be given this much leeway, because with both this and BVS, he's shown that having more stuff filmed doesn't necessarily mean he can give us more interesting story. It's not. It's 3 hours of fiddle farting around with like 2 set pieces before we ever even see Superman. It's a lot of pretentiousness and self-importance, and grimdark moping.

Which is better, theatrical or this? Neither. They both have their moments and both are overall bad movies.

MahrinSkel
Terracotta Army
Posts: 10494

When she crossed over, she was just a ship. But when she came back... she was bullshit!


Reply #141 on: March 19, 2021, 11:24:19 PM

It's better than the theatrical in that it's coherent and doesn't spend half an hour making "Superman makes everyone else redundant" jokes. It's too long by at least an hour, and that includes all the alternate reality bullshit.

--Dave
« Last Edit: March 20, 2021, 09:57:09 AM by MahrinSkel »

--Jello Biafra: "If evolution is outlawed, only outlaws will evolve."
luckton
Terracotta Army
Posts: 5933


Reply #142 on: March 21, 2021, 12:29:39 PM

It's better than the theatrical in that it's coherent and doesn't spend half an hour making "Superman makes everyone else redundant" jokes. It's too long by at least an hour, and that includes all the alternate reality bullshit.

--Dave

I agree with this. The "Knightmare" scene at the end was just swamp poop; it didn't need to be there. If they were just looking for a fancy way to intro the Martian Manhunter, they could have just cut to Bruce waking up without the nightmare and walked out to meet him. Also, kinda shitty way to intro MM, but whatever at this point.

I actually enjoyed spending more time trying to build origins for the team members that didn't already have stand-alone movies. The first movie was a mess in that regard, and all this shows is that WB has no interest in investing in a proper DC cinematic universe; they can't get beyond "but we have comic franchise? why it no print monies?".

"Those lights, combined with the polygamous Nazi mushrooms, will mess you up."

"Tuning me out doesn't magically change the design or implementation of said design. Though, that'd be neat if it did." -schild
Threash
Terracotta Army
Posts: 8690


Reply #143 on: March 21, 2021, 12:51:32 PM


I actually enjoyed spending more time trying to build origins for the team members that didn't already have stand-alone movies. The first movie was a mess in that regard, and all this shows is that WB has no interest in investing in a proper DC cinematic universe; they can't get beyond "but we have comic franchise? why it no print monies?".

The sad thing is that they have not been wrong, their DC universe crap might not be making MCU levels money but it's still raking in hundreds of millions per movie.

I am the .00000001428%
Velorath
Contributor
Posts: 8517


Reply #144 on: March 21, 2021, 01:42:44 PM

It's better than the theatrical in that it's coherent and doesn't spend half an hour making "Superman makes everyone else redundant" jokes. It's too long by at least an hour, and that includes all the alternate reality bullshit.

--Dave

I agree with this. The "Knightmare" scene at the end was just swamp poop; it didn't need to be there. If they were just looking for a fancy way to intro the Martian Manhunter, they could have just cut to Bruce waking up without the nightmare and walked out to meet him. Also, kinda shitty way to intro MM, but whatever at this point.

Haven't watched it, but from what I've read it sounded like part of the reason for some of the stuff at the end (which I believe was filmed just for this cut) was to have a scene with Batman and Leto Joker together.
HaemishM
Staff Emeritus
Posts: 41826

the Confederate flag underneath the stone in my class ring


WWW
Reply #145 on: March 21, 2021, 01:50:27 PM

That post-apocalypse scene was completely unnecessary in that it seemed to exist for no reason whatsoever than to show Leto's Joker riffing with Batman (with everyone else in the scene being window dressing) and whatever reason Superman seemed to be on Darkseid's side. Introing Martian Manhunter was fine, except for how many questions his inclusion caused.


Knowing Synder's plan was to make 7 goddamn JL movies (with this one being the 3rd after Man of Steel and BVS), I know that he was dropping seeds for future movies. Going Darkseid as the villain in the 3rd film smacks of the same kind of "we can't wait to world build" problems that caused such problems in BVS. Better to have made Luthor the villain in this movie with Deathstroke and other "Legion of Doom" type villains, then lead up to Darkseid but that requires some kind of patience.

Khaldun
Terracotta Army
Posts: 13061


Reply #146 on: March 21, 2021, 03:54:00 PM

He was trying to (ineptly) reproduce the new origin for the Justice League in the New 52, which I strongly suspect was in turn an inept execution of an origin that Snyder and Johns had scribbled onto napkins in conversations leading up to the New 52--a lot of the New 52 in retrospect looks to me like an attempt to align the DC Universe behind a Snyder-friendly aesthetic (it launches two years or so before Man of Steel, so I think Snyder must have already been signed and plans were underway for Man of Steel in 2013; New 52 comics appear in 2011 as Thor and Captain America appear and the Avengers film is on the horizon.

In the comic, the New 52 Justice League don't know each other, don't like each other much at first meeting, and the only thing that brings them together is an attack from Apokolips, which establishes the need to have a JL. It's all very heavy metal and loud and unsubtle and full of scowls and grimdarkery.
Goumindong
Terracotta Army
Posts: 4252


Reply #147 on: March 21, 2021, 04:40:19 PM

I think one part of it when it comes to DC is that Snyder plus his partners were able to argue to Warner Brothers executives who hated comics and thought comics were for kids that they had a 'take' on comics that would make them art--Goyer's connection to Nolan and the Blade films gave him credibility in particular. So they were able to say to WB people, "look, we get it, you think this stuff is shit and you can't stand it, but we're gonna give you money AND prestige because we're going to continue Snyder's record of adapting the really artistic comics like Dark Knight Returns, just like Watchmen and 300, and just look at the box office, people AND critics love that high-toned stuff." The WB people didn't like and didn't care about comics, so that all sounded perfectly fine to them. So when BvS significantly underperformed expectations, they were like "hey what" and when the MCU was suddenly making asstons of money even when it was Ant-Man or whatever, they did what suits always do: "guys, do it like those guys". Then they panicked more because they realized Goyer and Snyder couldn't do it like those guys and then Snyder was taken out of the whole thing by a family tragedy, so they said "quick quick who do we call? oh, Joss Whedon? that sounds good". In the meantime they were also like whoa people liked Wonder Woman and that was kind of fun shit who knew.


I have a theory that the reason the Snyder Cut got made was so that the studios would have a failure to point to for a reason to fire him for someone else.
Trippy
Administrator
Posts: 22584


Reply #148 on: March 21, 2021, 04:47:35 PM

The reason it got made was to sell more HBO Max subscriptions.
Khaldun
Terracotta Army
Posts: 13061


Reply #149 on: March 21, 2021, 05:13:30 PM

They already had underperformance to point to--I mean, Man of Steel and BvS did fine but not MCU money hats fine. I don't think they had any remaining need to cut ties with Snyder. I think they said, "sure, why not? these maniacs who want it will all subscribe to HBO Max, and it's not that expensive to make".

Plus: they were probably also a teeny bit guilty about the circumstances under which Snyder quit during postproduction. Well, probably not, it's studio executives. But who knows, maybe there were some potential legal consequences that this helps to avoid.

Edit: jeezus, they spent 70 million on this. So much for not that expensive.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2021, 05:20:31 PM by Khaldun »
MediumHigh
Terracotta Army
Posts: 1875


WWW
Reply #150 on: March 21, 2021, 07:56:15 PM


Edit: jeezus, they spent 70 million on this. So much for not that expensive.


Money Laundering.  awesome, for real

If bored and want something to read click here -> http://memiorsofatroll.wordpress.com/
Trippy
Administrator
Posts: 22584


Reply #151 on: March 21, 2021, 08:23:11 PM

HaemishM
Staff Emeritus
Posts: 41826

the Confederate flag underneath the stone in my class ring


WWW
Reply #152 on: March 21, 2021, 09:08:02 PM

Edit: jeezus, they spent 70 million on this. So much for not that expensive.

Wait... they spent 70 MILLION on a goddamn overlong direct-to-streaming director's cut for a movie that wasn't even that popular or well-received to begin with?

... the fuck?

I'm sure money laundering definitely has something to do with it, but goddamn it's amazing how Warner Bros. (or ATT or whoever owns them this week) just seems to get off on throwing good money after bad.

Ceryse
Terracotta Army
Posts: 870


Reply #153 on: March 21, 2021, 09:32:49 PM

The sad thing is.. the Snyder cut is proving to be popular, from what I've seen online. It might have also been the cause of a fairly decently sized chunk of subscriber growth for HBO Max.

I do not understand it, nor shall I try to.
Trippy
Administrator
Posts: 22584


Reply #154 on: March 21, 2021, 09:34:46 PM

HBO Max is significantly more expensive than something like Disney+ so WB doesn’t need nearly as many new subscribers to cover the costs. E.g. let’s assume half that budget is not laundered money (money being paid back to WB), and the monthly cost of HBO Max is $14.99 and the average subscription length is 3 months.That would mean they would need ~800,000 new subscribers to pay the real costs ($35,000,000 / ($14.99 *3)).

HaemishM
Staff Emeritus
Posts: 41826

the Confederate flag underneath the stone in my class ring


WWW
Reply #155 on: March 21, 2021, 09:55:51 PM

To be fair, HBO Max does have a surprising amount of content, from classic movies to foreign films, animated stuff, etc. It's not the entire WB catalog, but it's probably pretty goddamn close and that's before you even add the HBO content. Not whoring for them, but it's decent and the app isn't terrible.

MediumHigh
Terracotta Army
Posts: 1875


WWW
Reply #156 on: March 21, 2021, 10:02:08 PM

The sad thing is.. the Snyder cut is proving to be popular, from what I've seen online. It might have also been the cause of a fairly decently sized chunk of subscriber growth for HBO Max.

I do not understand it, nor shall I try to.

DC fans are an outspoken minority of neck beards, who may or may not comprise a silent majority of nerds who feel the marvel movies are too mainstream. Or something that convoluted.  Had a guy once told me that BvS was actually good because the Batman in BvS despite being called Bruce Wayne is really Thomas Wayne from Flash Point, which means that everyone saying Batman was acting out of character is wrong and Zack Synder is doing the lords work. These are the people who are loving the synders cut.

If bored and want something to read click here -> http://memiorsofatroll.wordpress.com/
Velorath
Contributor
Posts: 8517


Reply #157 on: March 21, 2021, 11:36:04 PM

To be fair, HBO Max does have a surprising amount of content, from classic movies to foreign films, animated stuff, etc. It's not the entire WB catalog, but it's probably pretty goddamn close and that's before you even add the HBO content. Not whoring for them, but it's decent and the app isn't terrible.

It’s a shame that WB release maybe one good movie a year on average. I think out of any major studio, they have the worst output.
HaemishM
Staff Emeritus
Posts: 41826

the Confederate flag underneath the stone in my class ring


WWW
Reply #158 on: March 22, 2021, 03:21:47 PM

They do have some good older releases on there - I watched Point Break (the original) for the first time in my life the other night. They also have a few decent Bergman/Fellini/Cocteau/Kurosawa flicks in their arsenal.

Velorath
Contributor
Posts: 8517


Reply #159 on: March 22, 2021, 04:53:46 PM

Yeah there are a good amount of classic movies on there. I think it's mostly been the past 10-15 years or so where WB has averaged maybe one good movie a year.
Abagadro
Terracotta Army
Posts: 12126

Possibly the only user with more posts in the Den than PC/Console Gaming.


Reply #160 on: March 30, 2021, 06:01:01 PM

I generally liked it except for the bullshit at the end. Much more coherent (if overstuffed in some places) story arc and the villain actually made a modicum of sense (in comic book terms) in this version.  Still too much slow-mo.  Cut that back and trim it here and there and its a very solid 3 hour movie.

"As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron.”

-H.L. Mencken
Khaldun
Terracotta Army
Posts: 13061


Reply #161 on: March 30, 2021, 06:24:35 PM

Steppenwolf definitely makes more sense and with the shiny armor he doesn't look as stupid.

The stuff with Cyborg is now really quite good. Flash is a better character in Snyder's version.

The opening bit with Diana and the bomb guys actually detracts from the film now--they seem to have made it as an action sequence they could show off with the character that no one hated.

The other thing that kind of kills the momentum dead for me in either version is "Superman is dead, everyone loves Superman, wait Superman is alive again only pissed, wait now it's not clear he's coming in time", etc. In both versions, Superman kind of kills narrative momentum. But this version gets rid of the dumb Whedon joking about how Superman is EZ Mode and doesn't even need his sidekicks. In some ways this film would have been better if Superman rushed in by himself first and got his ass kicked and needed the other five to save him. Also the Martian Manhunter stuff is just terrible.

Abagadro
Terracotta Army
Posts: 12126

Possibly the only user with more posts in the Den than PC/Console Gaming.


Reply #162 on: March 30, 2021, 09:09:31 PM

Supes is used much better here and the fact that he actually doesn't "save the day" (the Flash does) worked for me. Got an actual LOL out of me when he shows up at the last second and the axe just goes "bong" on his shoulder.

"As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron.”

-H.L. Mencken
Khaldun
Terracotta Army
Posts: 13061


Reply #163 on: March 30, 2021, 09:35:20 PM

Yeah, once we're past the whole "Death of Superman" mini-arc, Superman is used genuinely well--definitely better than in the Whedon.
Reg
Terracotta Army
Posts: 5186


Reply #164 on: March 31, 2021, 08:06:22 AM

So what's going to happen going forward? The Snyder fans seem to think he's going to be put back in charge of the whole DCEU. That's not actually going to happen is it? I'll grant that I enjoyed the more fleshed out background stories but telling them turned the movie into a 4 hour slow motion grind fest. And what's with the Cyborg actor? As far as I can tell he's doing his best to get himself recast unless they give in to Snyder...
Threash
Terracotta Army
Posts: 8690


Reply #165 on: March 31, 2021, 09:54:28 AM

Nothing, Batman is getting rebooted, Aquaman and Wonder Woman are going to keep pretending the DCU still exists, I believe Superman is getting rebooted also?

I am the .00000001428%
Khaldun
Terracotta Army
Posts: 13061


Reply #166 on: March 31, 2021, 12:56:11 PM

WB doesn't seem to really have a strategy per se, even now, so who knows. If someone had emerged as the strong creative driver of DCU films going forward who was an alternative to Snyder, we'd know it by now. So my guess is that WB execs will just continue to back DCU pitches that come to them via more or less ad hoc logics. They've lost Cavill as Superman and likely Affleck as Batman. The upcoming Batman is being described as a standalone, but I suppose if it does really well they'd just start to look to Pattison to be Batman in any further films (he might not want to be, mind you). There still seems to be a Flash film in the offing but who knows. Aquaman might get a sequel and Wonder Woman might get a sequel, but also who knows.

I wouldn't be that surprised to see them fall all over Gunn after Suicide Squad 2 comes out if that's a big hit, but I am really certain he would have no interest in driving a whole franchise--you can in any event see from the trailer that his visual aesthetic and narrative preferences are essentially incompatible with Snyder's. The only way the two of them could be making DC movies in the future is that if every film stands or falls on its own merits and there is no franchise mentality.

If they decide they really do want to imitate the MCU (probably about a decade too late for that) and have a tightly interwoven IP strategy for DC material, they're going to have to start all over and do it right this time. I'm not even sure that's possible, let alone advisable. Nobody wants another origin movie for Batman, Superman, Wonder Woman or Aquaman, so you'd have to make films about them that just assumes the origin has been covered (a la Tom Holland Spider-Man) and you'd have to decide how to build an actually-connected universe.

I mean, look at Suicide Squad 2: I see Javelin, Crazy-Quilt, Peacemaker, Bloodsport, Savant, Weasel, Rick Flag, the Thinker (I think that's who Capaldi is?) and some others and man there is no way any of those guys fit into the Snyderverse--they're colorful 3rd rank villains who would absolutely not fit into the career of Affleck's secretive, almost urban-folklorish Batman; Wonder Woman has never really operated in public in the Snyderverse; Superman appeared only a year ago; Aquaman also. Aquaman seems sort of astonished at fighting Black Manta--like what is this weird shit? a dude with a costume and laser beams?--not "oh yeah another super villain". You can just barely, BARELY imagine Deathstroke having fought Affleck's Batman in the past--he's a secretive mercenary. And just barely the Joker, who seems in the Snyderverse to just be a gang leader. But all those other guys? Can't be the same universe. It would be like the MCU having the Fantastic Four from the Josh Trank movie show up and say "Oh yeah we've been here since before Iron Man AGGG look at us experiencing grimdark body horror while Rocket Racoon cracks a joke".
eldaec
Terracotta Army
Posts: 11473


Reply #167 on: March 31, 2021, 02:26:59 PM

The right 'strategy' for WB and DC right now is to stop giving shits about continuity and make good movies. Give directors and writers freedom to do whatever and let people capable of good movies have a go.

They don't even need the MCU's hit rate to be successful. They just need to avoid driving the superman and batman brands into the fucking dirt.

Batman must be one of the easiest superhero IPs imaginable to make money with. Yet people are talking as if WB might actually fail.
« Last Edit: March 31, 2021, 02:33:39 PM by eldaec »

"People will not assume that what they read on the internet is trustworthy or that it carries any particular ­assurance or accuracy" - Lord Leveson
"Hyperbole is a cancer" - Lakov Sanite
Trippy
Administrator
Posts: 22584


Reply #168 on: March 31, 2021, 02:50:40 PM

It wouldn't be good to give that role to a director unless they plan on not directing since it's a lot of work to do what Kevin Feige does. It's better to give it to a producer-type like a Jerry Bruckheimer (but who is also a comic-book nerd) who knows how to produce movies with different directors but still have the film "feel" like a Jerry Bruckheimer movie, which is essentially what Kevin Feige has done with the MCU.
NowhereMan
Terracotta Army
Posts: 7217


Reply #169 on: March 31, 2021, 03:31:48 PM

It does somewhat boggle my mind the overall quality and consistency the DC Animated universe has and the burning pile of trash the live action stuff has managed.

"Look at my car. Do you think that was bought with the earnest love of geeks?" - HaemishM
Trippy
Administrator
Posts: 22584


Reply #170 on: March 31, 2021, 04:21:46 PM

Same could be said about most of the newer Star Wars stuff.
Reg
Terracotta Army
Posts: 5186


Reply #171 on: March 31, 2021, 06:45:03 PM

Ah well. I guess I'll just wait and see if they get it right within my lifetime. All I know is that I don't want to see Superman "defending" Metropolis against Zod by knocking over skyscrapers and causing god knows how many civilian casualties ever again.
Khaldun
Terracotta Army
Posts: 13061


Reply #172 on: March 31, 2021, 08:02:32 PM

Plainly they're better off just saying "we have lots and lots o' superheroes, guys, make a pitch, we're open for business. We could have three Batman movies in a row with really different takes, it's cool. We are the anti-franchise". It would be the smartest imaginable thing they could do and curiously consistent with the actual history of the DCU.
Tale
Terracotta Army
Posts: 8208

sıɥʇ ǝʞıן sʞןɐʇ


Reply #173 on: March 31, 2021, 11:06:51 PM

I generally liked it except for the bullshit at the end. Much more coherent (if overstuffed in some places) story arc and the villain actually made a modicum of sense (in comic book terms) in this version.  Still too much slow-mo.  Cut that back and trim it here and there and its a very solid 3 hour movie.

I've never been into comic books or superheroes. DC and Marvel were all the same to me until they started defining themselves as TV and movie brands. I had no awareness of the original movie, nor of the Snyder/Whedon controversy, nor that the Snyder cut was coming up. I've watched a lot of Marvel movies, but I'm sick of them. I don't think they're particularly good. However, I loved the Netflix Marvel series. I love sci-fi.

A four-hour, 4:3 recut of an action movie intrigues me, in a kind of "what the fuck" way. I've got access to it. Should I watch this thing?
Trippy
Administrator
Posts: 22584


Reply #174 on: April 01, 2021, 03:12:39 AM

I haven't seen the Synder Cut myself but if you've seen his previous two "SynderVerse" DC movies and didn't hate them then you should probably watch this one too.
Pages: 1 ... 3 4 [5] 6 7 Go Up Print 
f13.net  |  f13.net General Forums  |  General Discussion  |  Movies  |  Topic: Justice League  
Jump to:  

Powered by SMF 1.1.10 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines LLC