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Author Topic: Useless comics news, discussions, and recommendations  (Read 129530 times)
Khaldun
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Reply #70 on: August 26, 2013, 11:31:31 AM

I really don't think there are any gems left at DC at the moment. Honestly. Even Azzarello's Wonder Woman has lost its interest for me. Snyder's Batman is also just not working for me--he really lost me during the bad Joker stuff. Everything else is just bad.
Fordel
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Reply #71 on: August 26, 2013, 09:51:13 PM

Really my biggest worry is the new Canadian super hero will be something incredibly stupid like BeaverMan or SyrupGuy.

and the gate is like I TOO AM CAPABLE OF SPEECH
Sky
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Reply #72 on: August 27, 2013, 10:31:20 AM

One of the things I liked least about DC -everyone was Somethingman or Somethinggirl and wore their underwear on the outside of their spandex. Marvel had some of that, too....but DC was rife with it.

Fordel
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Reply #73 on: August 27, 2013, 03:50:42 PM

Most of DC is basically older then the oldest bastard on this forum, it's just how people rolled back then.  why so serious?

and the gate is like I TOO AM CAPABLE OF SPEECH
Fordel
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Reply #74 on: September 05, 2013, 05:24:30 PM


and the gate is like I TOO AM CAPABLE OF SPEECH
Khaldun
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Reply #75 on: September 05, 2013, 07:24:08 PM

Another great example of how DC is fucking up. It's not even about hatred of teh gay by a bunch of fanboys, it's about a bunch of pissy little prima donnas who can't keep their hands off of other creative peoples' decisions. This is about the eighth or ninth case where really great writers or artists (not counting Liefield) have gone public detailing a pattern of constant, incessant editorial interference with every little thing they've tried to do.

In the meantime, over at Marvel, they're basically saying, "Oh, you want Thor to be totally metal and be screwing Viking ladies, sure Jason, do it" and then saying, "Oh, you want to be all weird and cerebral and intellectual, do it Jonathan" and "Oh Mark, do what you want with the Hulk".

Margalis
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Reply #76 on: September 05, 2013, 07:30:38 PM

I'm with DC on this one.

Characters getting married is almost always awful regardless of gender. There is a rich history in comics and TV of series being ruined with pivotal characters tie the know or otherwise get too close.

vampirehipi23: I would enjoy a book written by a monkey and turned into a movie rather than this.
Khaldun
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Reply #77 on: September 06, 2013, 07:21:23 AM

Right, just stick with lots of lesbian sex in Batwoman, let's not let the characters grow emotionally or anything.

Marriage often is considered to "ruin" superheroes because some male comic fans (and editors) get stuck at that point in their lives where women are desirable but growing up is unattainable. Like Peter Pan if there was a second version of Never-Never Land where Peter had hair on his balls, a deep voice and wet dreams but wasn't going to do anything really icky like get into a long-term relationship with Wendy. Saying that marriage is definitionally a bad idea for superheroes is just an extension of saying that all change, growth and aging in superheroes is bad, that they have to constantly reset to their default every twelve or twenty issues. Which ultimately stunts the potential for storytelling in the whole genre.

I think it's ok to make this argument about Spider-Man but not because it's wrong for him to be married per se--it's wrong for Spider-Man to be too settled or comfortable. It is important that the character always have a bit of that sense of "the old Parker luck". But in that sense, having to get divorced from a hot super-model because of irreconcilable differences (or maybe getting caught having some Black Cat on the side) would have been perfectly consistent with Peter Parker's romantic and personal history--where he screws up, bad things happen, and he can't quite fix them all. A character whose origin is rooted in guilt and selfishness gets richer and more interesting if every major development in his life has a bit of guilt and selfishness involved.

Superman settling down with Lois Lane makes 100% sense. The character doesn't require edginess or being lonely. The whole point is that he's a good man right down to his foundations, and a basically nice, normal guy. That makes him a bit boring maybe but that's ok in the comics if not in the movies. And Lois doesn't have to be a wifey who waits for him--she's got her own life, her own skills. They're a good match and there's plenty of good stories to be told there. Avoiding this marriage takes you back into the Silver Age where Superman was into crazy superdickery towards Lois and Lois was a shrill harridan. Or it takes something as obvious and dumb as giving Superman and Wonder Woman a romantic relationship, which everyone knew was only something to mess around with in alternate realities until, of course, the current dumbasses at DC, where this goes along with every other obvious and dumb thing that they're doing.

Barry Allen and Iris Allen back in the pre-Wally West Flash days worked really well. Again, it made the character sort of a solid suburban citizen but that was the point of the character--that's what he was. That was the slight tension between being a fast superhero and a slow, careful, modest kind of man.

There are only a few characters where I'd agree they should never, ever marry. Batman is one of them. Wonder Woman too, I think.

HaemishM
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Reply #78 on: September 06, 2013, 09:27:10 AM

Characters getting married is almost always awful regardless of gender. There is a rich history in comics and TV of series being ruined with pivotal characters tie the know or otherwise get too close.

It's only awful if the writer is shit. Good writers can write married characters that are still interesting, while bad writers (and their editors) can't conceive of a possible life where their idols aren't stunted man-children with daddy issues they never work through.

Editorial influence has done a lot of fucking with Marvel over the last few years - it just happens to come in the form of "We must have a huge, multi-title crossover at least once a year and you must shoehorn your characters into it no matter what you have already built." I've been going back through the X-Men and related books from like 2007 on and there is some good stuff in there. But I'm constantly having to go back and catch up on other books before diving into the crossovers like Messiah Complex or Necrosha. I will say though that this has made me read X-Force and HOLY SHIT. When it first came out, I didn't like it because it seemed all "let's make grinmdark cussing blood-letting characters." But as I stuck with it, they really did some outstanding stuff with that book. Matt Fraction's Uncanny X-Men has also been top notch. The X-Club science guys are awesome and he's using some of the Grant Morrison stuff like Phantomex really well. The Mike Carey X-Men Legacy stuff? Meh - some of it's been tedious and most of it has felt like a book that doesn't really have a reason to exist.

jgsugden
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Reply #79 on: September 06, 2013, 12:00:14 PM

No 'event' in a character's life is going to make the comic series bad.  It will be the writing and artwork that determine whether the comic is bad.  I don't care whether we're talking marriage, babies, deaths of supporting characters, determining they're gay, adopting a dog, getting a  job at Victoria's Secret (blow or other), or becoming a vegan.  None of those things mean the book has to be bad after they occur.  You can tell good stories after any of these events.

I'm not an expert on his recent tales, but I think it would be interesting to have a Batman storyline where he meets his soul mate, figures out how to incorporate her into his life, accepts that there are risks that she is willing to take to be with him, gets married, finds out that he will be a father (again)... and then ends up helpless while a villian that everyone considered to be ridiculous slowly tortures her to death before his eyes in the most brutal way they can pull off in comics.   If you tell that storyline over eight years as Batman evolves with the story, it could be amazing - or it could end up as the worst thing ever to happen in DC's history.  It all depends on the writing.

2020 will be the year I gave up all hope.
Sky
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Reply #80 on: September 06, 2013, 12:53:00 PM

"Victor, did you finish the dishes yet?"
"Woman! I'm Victor Von Doom not some house lackey to do your bidding!"
"So is that a no?"
"...."
"Alright, I'll get them done. But I'll plot my revenge whilst doing so..."
"What, dear?"
"Nothing, sweetness!"

MediumHigh
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Reply #81 on: September 06, 2013, 03:11:48 PM

No 'event' in a character's life is going to make the comic series bad.  It will be the writing and artwork that determine whether the comic is bad.  I don't care whether we're talking marriage, babies, deaths of supporting characters, determining they're gay, adopting a dog, getting a  job at Victoria's Secret (blow or other), or becoming a vegan.  None of those things mean the book has to be bad after they occur.  You can tell good stories after any of these events.

I'm not an expert on his recent tales, but I think it would be interesting to have a Batman storyline where he meets his soul mate, figures out how to incorporate her into his life, accepts that there are risks that she is willing to take to be with him, gets married, finds out that he will be a father (again)... and then ends up helpless while a villian that everyone considered to be ridiculous slowly tortures her to death before his eyes in the most brutal way they can pull off in comics.   If you tell that storyline over eight years as Batman evolves with the story, it could be amazing - or it could end up as the worst thing ever to happen in DC's history.  It all depends on the writing.

Whats the point of giving someone a soul mate only to brutally rip them away? I mean sure sometimes that works but that's like 99% of comicdom save for superman and lois.

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Velorath
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Reply #82 on: September 06, 2013, 03:55:00 PM

No 'event' in a character's life is going to make the comic series bad.  It will be the writing and artwork that determine whether the comic is bad.  I don't care whether we're talking marriage, babies, deaths of supporting characters, determining they're gay, adopting a dog, getting a  job at Victoria's Secret (blow or other), or becoming a vegan.  None of those things mean the book has to be bad after they occur.  You can tell good stories after any of these events.

I'm not an expert on his recent tales, but I think it would be interesting to have a Batman storyline where he meets his soul mate, figures out how to incorporate her into his life, accepts that there are risks that she is willing to take to be with him, gets married, finds out that he will be a father (again)... and then ends up helpless while a villian that everyone considered to be ridiculous slowly tortures her to death before his eyes in the most brutal way they can pull off in comics.   If you tell that storyline over eight years as Batman evolves with the story, it could be amazing - or it could end up as the worst thing ever to happen in DC's history.  It all depends on the writing.

From the second Batman gets married everyone is going to know that "dies horribly" is going to be the likely outcome for the wife at some point.

I don't see why Batwoman couldn't have gotten married from a storytelling point of view though. She isn't an iconic character with a status quo that constantly needs to be returned to.
DevilsAdvocate25
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Reply #83 on: September 06, 2013, 03:56:04 PM

I'm with DC on this one.

Characters getting married is almost always awful regardless of gender. There is a rich history in comics and TV of series being ruined with pivotal characters tie the know or otherwise get too close.

Do the Fantastic Four still exist? How long have Reed and Sue been married?
HaemishM
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Reply #84 on: September 06, 2013, 04:21:01 PM

I'm with DC on this one.

Characters getting married is almost always awful regardless of gender. There is a rich history in comics and TV of series being ruined with pivotal characters tie the know or otherwise get too close.

Do the Fantastic Four still exist? How long have Reed and Sue been married?

Over 30 years.

Margalis
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Reply #85 on: September 06, 2013, 07:18:36 PM

Do the Fantastic Four still exist? How long have Reed and Sue been married?

They started married.

When a character gets married the dynamic of the comic has to change a fair bit, or else the partner has to die quickly, or else it feels weird if the dynamic doesn't change. I think it can work, especially if both are super heroes, but it's very easy to fuck up a marriage between a super and non-super person.

Even if you trust the writers on the book you know that sooner or later they are going to leave - most likely sooner.
« Last Edit: September 06, 2013, 07:22:04 PM by Margalis »

vampirehipi23: I would enjoy a book written by a monkey and turned into a movie rather than this.
Nevermore
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Reply #86 on: September 06, 2013, 07:30:12 PM

They started married.

Nope!  They got married in Fantastic Four Annual #3.

Over and out.
Margalis
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Reply #87 on: September 07, 2013, 02:09:29 AM

Damn, I thought about double-checking that. Let's just pretend time started in 1965.

vampirehipi23: I would enjoy a book written by a monkey and turned into a movie rather than this.
Khaldun
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Reply #88 on: September 07, 2013, 06:37:29 AM

They've had about three separations over the years as well, of varying lengths, so writers on the book have been able to use the marriage to create some ongoing tension at times. Plus Sue is constantly hinting that she might go fuck Namor someday, or even that she already has. (Reed has never even had a hint of being attracted to anyone else.)
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Reply #89 on: September 07, 2013, 07:47:00 AM

Just Namor? May as well include Tony Stark, Doc Doom, Doc Strange... basically everyone who holds a seat at the Illuminati wants to bang Sue Richards.

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Pennilenko
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Reply #90 on: September 07, 2013, 08:24:52 AM

Just Namor? May as well include Tony Stark, Doc Doom, Doc Strange... basically everyone who holds a seat at the Illuminati wants to bang Sue Richards.
Shit, I would even bang Sue Richards. Oh ho ho ho. Reallllly?

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Merusk
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Reply #91 on: September 07, 2013, 05:07:00 PM

Stay Classy, DC

Contest!  Show Harleyquinn committing suicide in a bunch of poses, including naked in a tub! Win a chance to be a DC artist! Final kicker, lets' run it during suicide prevention week!

The past cannot be changed. The future is yet within your power.
HaemishM
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Reply #92 on: September 07, 2013, 06:58:59 PM

Wow. That tone... it's the one DC can't hear because of their deafness.

Velorath
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Reply #93 on: September 07, 2013, 08:58:54 PM

I don't know, from the description it really doesn't sound that bad:

Quote
Harley Quinn is no stranger to a little breaking and entering for a good time and now, she’s going to help one talented artist break into comics with DC Entertainment’s Open Talent Search. That’s right, we’re looking for someone to draw one page of HARLEY QUINN #0 alongside some of comic’s most amazing talents, including Amanda Conner, Paul Pope, Bruce Timm, and a few other surprises, maybe even you!!

Beginning this November, Jimmy Palmiotti and Amanda Conner will be writing the madcap adventures of Harley Quinn and they’ll need all the help they can get to handle her, so they’re opening the invitation to one undiscovered talent to join them. If you think you’ve got what it takes to be published in this special issue, then put on your working hat and start drawing now, because an opportunity like this doesn’t come along very often.

Submissions can be Pencils, Pencils & inks or Pencils, inks & colors. Please keep in mind, the level of your work should be of professional-quality, so don't feel the need to ink or color your work if you're only confident in penciling.

Oh, and did we mention that we’ll be reviewing the submissions ourselves to personally select Harley Quinn’s new creative accomplice? 

Harley Quinn. One page. Published work. Breaking into comics was never this fun. ;)

— Jim & Dan

Here’s how to enter:

Read the rules & regulations listed below to confirm that you are eligible to enter DC Entertainment’s Open Talent Search and agree to the terms and conditions.

Read the following script page and give us your original artistic interpretation of what those four panels should look like on a single page:

PAGE 15

4 panels

PANEL 1
Harley is on top of a building, holding a large DETACHED cellphone tower in her hands as lightning is striking just about everywhere except her tower. She is looking at us like she cannot believe what she is doing. Beside herself. Not happy.

PANEL 2
Harley is sitting in an alligator pond, on a little island with a suit of raw chicken on, rolling her eyes like once again, she cannot believe where she has found herself. We see the alligators ignoring her.

PANEL 3
Harley is sitting in an open whale mouth, tickling the inside of the whale’s mouth with a feather. She is ecstatic and happy, like this is the most fun ever.

PANEL 4
Harley sitting naked in a bathtub with toasters, blow dryers, blenders, appliances all dangling above the bathtub and she has a cord that will release them all. We are watching the moment before the inevitable death. Her expression is one of “oh well, guess that’s it for me” and she has resigned herself to the moment that is going to happen.

- See more at: http://www.dccomics.com/node/305151#sthash.7J8Vs7rV.dpuf

You've got a comic written by Jimmy Palmiotti who is a fairly decent writer and a bunch of different artists doing pages of art for the story, one of which will be the contest winner, with the bathtub scene being one out of four panels on the page. These suicide attempts seem to be fairly ridiculous, similar to the stuff Mr. Immortal pulls in the Great Lakes Avengers comics, and presumably there's a story reason for it and it's being played up for laughs. You can say that suicide shouldn't be a topic of humor I guess (I think Harold and Maude is a good movie so I'd respectfully disagree), or that it was a bad idea to make that particular page the of the story the one they're soliciting art for, especially since we have no context for it, but I assume they picked it since drawing four wordless and outlandish scenes is probably easier to judge than four panels of Harley standing around. I don't think it's because DC is looking for stroke material of suicidally depressed women or anything.
Khaldun
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Reply #94 on: September 07, 2013, 09:21:34 PM

Hey kids! Win a chance to have DC editorial override your artistic decisions!
jgsugden
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Reply #95 on: September 07, 2013, 11:05:10 PM

... From the second Batman gets married everyone is going to know that "dies horribly" is going to be the likely outcome for the wife at some point.
And?

Knowing that something is going to happen can be a powerful storytelling tool.  If you get the audience asking, "Is this it?" can be more tense than having them ask, "Will it happen?"  And, there is always the option to keep her alive.... there is a point at which people would accept Bruce's wife as a part of his universe and would stop expecting her to die.  which, of course, would be the right time to kill her.  in the case of Batman, that might take a couple decades. 
Quote
I don't see why Batwoman couldn't have gotten married from a storytelling point of view though. She isn't an iconic character with a status quo that constantly needs to be returned to.
Reed and Sue got married and had kids.  Pete graduated from school, got a career, and got married (although we all expect his death to be short lived) - with each change lasting over a decade.  Bruce Banner has had dozens of status quos over the years... where do we expect him to return? 

My point is that characters can evolve - they just need to evolve into something that can be the focus of interesting stories.  That doesn't mean that the best move for a character is sometimes a move back, but there are plenty of examples of characters that have changed and evolved.

2020 will be the year I gave up all hope.
Velorath
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Reply #96 on: September 08, 2013, 12:02:49 AM

... From the second Batman gets married everyone is going to know that "dies horribly" is going to be the likely outcome for the wife at some point.
And?

Knowing that something is going to happen can be a powerful storytelling tool.  If you get the audience asking, "Is this it?" can be more tense than having them ask, "Will it happen?"  And, there is always the option to keep her alive.... there is a point at which people would accept Bruce's wife as a part of his universe and would stop expecting her to die.  which, of course, would be the right time to kill her.  in the case of Batman, that might take a couple decades. 
Quote
I don't see why Batwoman couldn't have gotten married from a storytelling point of view though. She isn't an iconic character with a status quo that constantly needs to be returned to.
Reed and Sue got married and had kids.  Pete graduated from school, got a career, and got married (although we all expect his death to be short lived) - with each change lasting over a decade.  Bruce Banner has had dozens of status quos over the years... where do we expect him to return? 

My point is that characters can evolve - they just need to evolve into something that can be the focus of interesting stories.  That doesn't mean that the best move for a character is sometimes a move back, but there are plenty of examples of characters that have changed and evolved.

Batman gets married and then at some point his wife dies horribly isn't some great story idea. For a character who got his start seeing his parents murdered in front of him, had one of his sidekicks die, another member of the "Bat Family" get shot in the spine and paralyzed, and now recently had his son/sidekick die, it would be pretty fucking old hat at this point, even if you could somehow get the editorial department to stick with it for over a decade. Hell, Morrison himself said one of his main reasons for killing Damian Wayne was to bring Batman back to the status quo for the next writer:

Quote
I always knew I was going to give Batman back kind of like, “This is the way I found the guy.” He’s got his cave, he’s got his butler, he’s got his Batmobile, he’s got his allies, and that’s it, you know? I didn’t want to leave the kid for future writers who may not want to have to deal with that stuff. That’s why Damian’s death was always going to wind down my run, because I wanted to take away anything that could date Batman or trap Batman within a certain set of circumstances.

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Reply #97 on: September 08, 2013, 09:19:20 PM

So is the New 52 Batgirl worth reading? I was never really into DC comics as a kid, so I come to most of the titles from a totally new reader perspective.

I traded in my fun blog for several legal blogs. Or, "blawgs," as the cutesy attorney blawgosphere likes to call 'em.
Khaldun
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Reply #98 on: September 08, 2013, 10:11:47 PM

Batgirl, not particularly, Gail Simone has had trouble getting up steam on the title, not the least because of editorial interference.

Batwoman, yes, but honestly the writing has been only mediocre, the art has been spectacular. The character was better written by a good margin when Greg Rucka was doing the plotting and scripts with Williams on art--but that at least created a pretty solid foundation for the character that went well beyond "lesbian Batman", made her genuinely interesting. (Then Grant Morrison complicated it further by re-introducing the original Silver Age Batwoman as a ruthless international agent who vaguely pities Batman for his inability to grow beyond Gotham and his obsessions.)
jgsugden
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Reply #99 on: September 08, 2013, 11:29:35 PM

Batman gets married and then at some point his wife dies horribly isn't some great story idea. For a character who got his start seeing his parents murdered in front of him, had one of his sidekicks die, another member of the "Bat Family" get shot in the spine and paralyzed, and now recently had his son/sidekick die, it would be pretty fucking old hat at this point, even if you could somehow get the editorial department to stick with it for over a decade. Hell, Morrison himself said one of his main reasons for killing Damian Wayne was to bring Batman back to the status quo for the next writer...
It could be done well or horrible.  That seems to be the only thing we disagree upon, as the rest of what you said basically reiterates why I brought it up as an example storyline...

2020 will be the year I gave up all hope.
HaemishM
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Reply #100 on: September 09, 2013, 12:13:01 PM

I always hated Damian Wayne, not because Batman shouldn't have a son but because I thought the early Morrison run on Batman was just terrible. It always felt like an Elseworlds book, like it wasn't in sync with the Batman of the regular DC universe at all. The first few issues I kept looking back in the book going "What am I reading?" For all the great work Morrison did on Justice League, his Batman just didn't match it.

As for marriages in comics, Scott Summers finally married Jean Grey and then we got some good stories when Scott started cheating on her with Emma Frost - I always thought it was a weird choice but it ended up making the X-Men a more interesting book. The X-stuff I'm reading now with Frost and Cyclops being the main driving force of the entire mutant population has actually turned into a good dynamic.

I'm still not sure why they are turning Cyclops into a Magneto 2.0 but I'm going with it.

Fordel
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Reply #101 on: September 09, 2013, 04:16:25 PM

They are doing that because it makes total sense. Cyclops has been fighting the 'good fight' for like 50 fucking years and getting shit on for it.

Dude's just fed up and broken, as he should be.

and the gate is like I TOO AM CAPABLE OF SPEECH
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Reply #102 on: September 09, 2013, 05:45:53 PM

I actually dig the all new xmen because of the play on cyclops turning into magneto.

HaemishM
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Reply #103 on: September 09, 2013, 08:40:57 PM

I'm into the Second Coming storyline and if Cyclops hadn't been a Magneto before, this would have been enough to turn him into it.

Velorath
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Reply #104 on: September 09, 2013, 08:59:44 PM

It could be done well or horrible.  That seems to be the only thing we disagree upon, as the rest of what you said basically reiterates why I brought it up as an example storyline...

Superman getting stuck in Eternia with He-Man for 2 years could be written well. It doesn't mean that's a good direction to take the book in. I don't think examining what happens to Batman when he loses a loved one is a particularly interesting story idea since that's already the core concept of the character. He deals with it by dressing up in a Bat costume and fighting crime. On top of that, killing a superhero's wife or girlfriend is already a trope a lot of people complain about.
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