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Author Topic: Marvel Universe (Thar be spoilers ahead.)  (Read 412987 times)
eldaec
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Reply #2380 on: May 12, 2021, 02:02:07 PM

I think they could, if they wanted. Hire an old actor and just front it out

But I don't think they will.

"People will not assume that what they read on the internet is trustworthy or that it carries any particular ­assurance or accuracy" - Lord Leveson
"Hyperbole is a cancer" - Lakov Sanite
Sir T
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Reply #2381 on: May 13, 2021, 12:26:53 AM

I've kind of said this before, but the idea of "Mutants" kinda of snaps when you place it in the wider MU anyway. Why would Steve Rogers be celebrated, and the Hulk or Thor or Spider-man get a pass, but Iceman, Prof X and Wolverine get discriminated against? That kind of thing is why Xmen has always grated on the other Marvel titles as Xmen deals with discrimination but the other titles do not. Spidey gets kicked around by the press, but that's seen as unfair press coverage sue to Jameson being a lying asshole due to a personal vendetta, and it's not shown as a general discrimination against "Mutants" as Spider-man is not referred to as a Mutant by Jameson, just a criminal.

I suppose you could say that the others were not "born" as supers, but it's would not be hard to find people who were born with their powers and not classed as Mutants or discriminated against for having powers.

Plus the people who get their powers after birth can be just as dangerous as the born supers, and the prime example of that is the Hulk.

Sometimes irony is pretty ironic.
SurfD
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Reply #2382 on: May 13, 2021, 01:24:52 AM

Cause mutants was all about Marvel's spin on Racism.   They get beat with the discrimination stick because of that inherent mutant characteristic.   Steve rogers is a "Person" with "Powers".  Cyclops is a "Mutant" with "Powers".   And as we know from plenty of experience, that distinction between "Person" and "Mutant" is all it takes.   The "Powers" bit is entirely irrelevant.   That's literally the cornerstone X-Men was built on, and it makes 100% perfect sense when you consider how irrational humanity can be when it comes to things like basic Racism.

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eldaec
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Reply #2383 on: May 13, 2021, 03:05:58 AM

It would work fine if you had mutants either cause or be scapegoated for some atrocity.

In the MCU I think the biggest challenge would be how society 'discovers' them. In the comics it always feels like mutants have been around for decades, and that allows them to look at how relationships between mutants and wider society would have developed and embedded. Without that it doesn't really feel like xmen to me.

Personally I think they should put the xmen in their own separate universe.

And while we are on the topic, the comics should do the same.
« Last Edit: May 13, 2021, 03:08:28 AM by eldaec »

"People will not assume that what they read on the internet is trustworthy or that it carries any particular ­assurance or accuracy" - Lord Leveson
"Hyperbole is a cancer" - Lakov Sanite
NowhereMan
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Reply #2384 on: May 13, 2021, 03:30:25 AM

I can kind of understand it in the sense that other heroes with powers are 'one offs' or are literally aliens. There's no fear that your kid could turn into a Spiderman or Steve Rogers fucks your daughter and suddenly you have half super soldier grandkids. That aspect of Marvel mutants did kind of ring true as to why they would be treated differently. Other heroes can face suspicion and get attacked but there isn't the same systemic fear there. Other capes have individual causes and are relatively unique, mutants are the 'next evolutionary step' and threaten to replace humans.

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Sir T
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Reply #2385 on: May 13, 2021, 08:55:42 AM

I agree with you up to a point, but you have to remember the general public in the Comic world does not have the knowledge you do. Hell you probably know more about how Spider-Man got his powers than Spidey knows himself. Spider-man became active when he was 15 years old, and as far as I know it has been established that most mutant powers emerge when you are a teenager or early adulthood. I cant see anyone looking at Spider-man and going "huh, not a mutant." Granted, no-one knew his age becasue of his mask, but still, I'm not seeing any particular reason a chucklefuck would see any real difference between Spidey and Cyclops, becasue THEY don't know a radioactive Spider bit Peter Parker. Hell they would be going "if he ain't a Mutie, how come his face is covered?"

Besides, I remember in one Spidey story Pete and MJ were worried whether his kids would have his powers, so he got his blood tested, and the technician said "I don't believe it, No-one has this many chromosomes!" So yes, it has been established you could have Spidey-babies, but again, people wouldn't know that.

I know I'm focusing on Spider-man on that discussion, but you could have the discussion about other guys. Most people don't have a clue how Banner got Hulked, and they would laugh their head off at Thor's claims he is a Norse God. Deadpool - not a mutant but he probably can't really remember how he got his powers anymore (and he has worked with the X-men to add to the confusion) Similar to Moon Night - all people know is that he is a guy with a Crescent fetish.

So ya its helpful to seperete your knowlege as a comic reader from what people in the world would know when thinging about this stuff.

Or you say "fuck it it's comics" and stop wasting your life worrying about it :D

Sometimes irony is pretty ironic.
Sky
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Reply #2386 on: May 13, 2021, 09:37:42 AM

Besides, I remember in one Spidey story Pete and MJ were worried whether his kids would have his powers, so he got his blood tested, and the technician said "I don't believe it, No-one has this many chromosomes!" So yes, it has been established you could have Spidey-babies, but again, people wouldn't know that.
*spiderchlorians

Threash
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Reply #2387 on: May 13, 2021, 09:39:49 AM

I've kind of said this before, but the idea of "Mutants" kinda of snaps when you place it in the wider MU anyway. Why would Steve Rogers be celebrated, and the Hulk or Thor or Spider-man get a pass, but Iceman, Prof X and Wolverine get discriminated against? That kind of thing is why Xmen has always grated on the other Marvel titles as Xmen deals with discrimination but the other titles do not. Spidey gets kicked around by the press, but that's seen as unfair press coverage sue to Jameson being a lying asshole due to a personal vendetta, and it's not shown as a general discrimination against "Mutants" as Spider-man is not referred to as a Mutant by Jameson, just a criminal.

I suppose you could say that the others were not "born" as supers, but it's would not be hard to find people who were born with their powers and not classed as Mutants or discriminated against for having powers.

Plus the people who get their powers after birth can be just as dangerous as the born supers, and the prime example of that is the Hulk.

Because Steve Rogers, Peter Parker and Banner are one off experiments and mutants are an entire race that is going to replace humanity.

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Sky
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Reply #2388 on: May 13, 2021, 10:14:35 AM

It doesn't help their PR to have a literal Brotherhood of Evil Mutants.

edited to add: but now that I'm thinking of it, I'd like a movie where Cap and Magneto go back in time to fight Nazis.

Draegan
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Reply #2389 on: May 13, 2021, 11:37:43 AM

Let's put it this way--when they get around to having the X-Men in the MCU, if they do, I don't think Magneto can be a Holocaust survivor. Honestly, it would be kind of cool if he were a survivor of a more recent genocide (Rwanda, Cambodia) as a way to switch up the character, but a lot will depend on what they decide to do with the entire idea of "mutants".


Vietnam War POW survivor.
eldaec
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Reply #2390 on: May 13, 2021, 11:39:41 AM

If I had to guess, Sokovia survivor.

"People will not assume that what they read on the internet is trustworthy or that it carries any particular ­assurance or accuracy" - Lord Leveson
"Hyperbole is a cancer" - Lakov Sanite
Threash
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Reply #2391 on: May 13, 2021, 12:31:21 PM

It has to be be specifically a survivor of racial persecution. I'd suggest Uyghurs, but lol at Marvel doing something to anger China.

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Trippy
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Reply #2392 on: May 13, 2021, 01:04:46 PM

I can kind of understand it in the sense that other heroes with powers are 'one offs' or are literally aliens. There's no fear that your kid could turn into a Spiderman or Steve Rogers fucks your daughter and suddenly you have half super soldier grandkids. That aspect of Marvel mutants did kind of ring true as to why they would be treated differently. Other heroes can face suspicion and get attacked but there isn't the same systemic fear there. Other capes have individual causes and are relatively unique, mutants are the 'next evolutionary step' and threaten to replace humans.
Yes, “Homo sapiens superior” and the “X gene” are pretty much all you need to know to understand how mutants are positioned in the standard Marvel comic book universe (aka Eartth-616).

Besides, I remember in one Spidey story Pete and MJ were worried whether his kids would have his powers, so he got his blood tested, and the technician said "I don't believe it, No-one has this many chromosomes!" So yes, it has been established you could have Spidey-babies, but again, people wouldn't know that.
He also talked to Dr. Hank McCoy — aka Beast from the X-Men and one of the world’s leading geneticists — if his mutation(s) could be inherited if he tried to have children with MJ and Hank told him it was possible but not a certainty and any mutations inherited may not have the same effects on the child.

https://marvel.fandom.com/wiki/Spider-Man_Vol_1_15

Khaldun
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Reply #2393 on: May 13, 2021, 01:09:06 PM

I think this is what Morrison and now Hickman were trying to do, which is lean in hard on the question of what made mutants different in a universe chock-full of metahumans--that they were imagined as an evolutionary replacement for "regular humans" where all the others were just weird accidents or created (e.g. wearing armor or having alien tech etc.). So the discrimination against mutants was almost like the current right-wing "replacement theory" garbage in the US. The problem with that is, well, if that's what it is, you gotta actually do it on some level, and the more it was shown to be true the less the comics MU was like our own reality. They also played around a little with the idea that it was like sexuality, where you were your parents' pride and joy at 12 and then at 13 you woke up and you were growing scales and detonating sonic booms into the toilet everytime you took a dump--you were the same person but also completely different and some of your family now hated you because of it.

Whenever they do this in the MCU, they're going to have to really think this all through. I almost wonder if they're weighing having the X-Men stay in their own reality.
Threash
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Reply #2394 on: May 13, 2021, 01:19:56 PM

Well they've announced or teased everything until 2023 and all we got was a vague Fantastic 4 tease so they are definitely not rushing anything.

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Trippy
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Reply #2395 on: May 13, 2021, 01:26:17 PM

Eternals could establish the mechanism(s) by which other mutants exist in the MCU. In the comics they are the product of genetic experiments by the Celestials who also created the X-gene.
Threash
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Reply #2396 on: May 13, 2021, 01:28:00 PM

I HAD heard rumors of Rogue being in the next Captain Marvel movie as a way to power her down a bit, but it might have been wishful thinking.

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Khaldun
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Reply #2397 on: May 13, 2021, 02:31:41 PM

Yeah, I keep thinking that maybe this is why they wanted to put Eternals on the schedule now because otherwise I really don't get it. Maybe something about the Eternals-Deviant conflict turns on the X-gene. That might be the way we get adults as well as teenagers--a few people with really strong X-genes get activated as adults (Xavier, Magneto, Wolverine etc.) but for most people it's something that starts happening at adolescence (which would let Xavier once again gather his first X-team with whomever they decide they want in the initial line-up).
Rendakor
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Reply #2398 on: May 13, 2021, 04:21:27 PM

At this point in the MCU, the only sensible option is for one of the movies to have some event that causes Mutants to suddenly become a thing. Retconning in Captain Marvel was one thing, but trying to pretend there was this whole other thing going on with all these hidden mutants who did fuckall during the myriad MCU conflicts is going to be idiocy. But if some McGuffin explodes at the end of one of the movies (Eternals, I guess? I have no idea what an Eternal is) and then they show us Logan regenerating or some bald guy hearing people's thoughts, that will probably work fine.

Keeping the Xmen in their own universe is also fine, in that I don't care about Xmen and can keep only watching their movies when they get good reviews (First Class/DoFP, yes, Sansa the Phoenix, no). And let Deadpool crossover between the two worlds without missing a beat.

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Trippy
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Reply #2399 on: May 13, 2021, 04:44:39 PM

At this point in the MCU, the only sensible option is for one of the movies to have some event that causes Mutants to suddenly become a thing. Retconning in Captain Marvel was one thing, but trying to pretend there was this whole other thing going on with all these hidden mutants who did fuckall during the myriad MCU conflicts is going to be idiocy. But if some McGuffin explodes at the end of one of the movies (Eternals, I guess? I have no idea what an Eternal is) and then they show us Logan regenerating or some bald guy hearing people's thoughts, that will probably work fine.
Like the Eternals themselves in what we know of the movie so far it would be possible that a small subset of mutants could be introduced as having been in hiding but yes like Khaldun suggested above there will likely be some sort of event that triggers a wide-spread activation of latent mutant powers similar to how Kamala Khan had her Inhuman genes activated by a special bomb in the comics.
Khaldun
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Reply #2400 on: May 13, 2021, 11:34:08 PM

Basically in the main Marvel Universe there was no explanation of mutants per se until the bosses at Marvel decided to pretend they were sorry for abusing Jack Kirby and rehired him for a little while to do another version of the New Gods admixed with reading way too much Erich Von Daniken Chariots of the Gods horseshit (late Kirby was artistic genius but narrative and character shit). That was the Eternals.

The Eternals were basically perfected, immortal humans who took on the personalities of the Greek gods and heroes (or vice-versa), created by race of genuinely ultra-powerful space gods called the Celestials, who basically went from planet to planet and messed around with life as they found it. What they typically did was make a superior, immortal race; a race of misshapen freaks ("deviants") and a race of normals who had a hidden potential that might someday express itself and make them even greater than the superior immortals. They come back to the planets they manipulate to study them and sometimes they seal off the planet and pass judgment on it, deciding whether it should live or die. In the original Eternals comic, the Celestials have returned, the Eternals and Deviants of humanity are mobilizing to decide what to do about it, and humans are astonished and kind of confused.

The series didn't last very long and it was Very Kirby. There was one genuinely great issue where a blind version of Hercules/Gilgamesh who has been on the outs from the rest of the Eternals returns to fight the Celestials and eventually ends up impressing them as he (apparently) dies for good fighting their judgment.

Then Roy Thomas, who was writing Thor, decided that since Marvel owned the characters (Kirby fucked up on that one), something should be done to write them into the Marvel universe. That was kind of Roy Thomas' thing--later on he would obsessively try to figure out how to make all of DC's World War II continuity make sense (bad idea). Thomas was writing Thor, and he figured Thor was the right place to deal with god-like characters. Gotta give him this, he went right at Big Problem #1: the Eternals now existed in a universe where there were honest-to-goodness Greek gods and Norse gods and other gods. So the Avengers Hercules and his Greek pals and the Eternals have a grudge-match fight and it all kind of ends inconclusively but at least says: they're not the same thing. And then Odin and all of Earth's gods are written into the story of the Celestials' judgment in a way that's kind of convincing. And then Thomas went a step further, with Jim Starlin's cooperation, and remade the story of Thanos and his relatives to be part of the story of the Eternals, with Thanos being an Eternal who basically has Deviant genes.

The connection to the X-Men and mutants sort of came out of all that in a much slower and more indirect way, but what happened is that a series of writers decided that the "mysterious potential" that the Celestials put in humanity was actually "mutation" and that this is why they'd come back to judge humanity in the first place--the mutations were actually happening and producing humans far more powerful (and unpredictable) than the Eternals. It's kind of snowballed as an explanation of mutants since then.
Riggswolfe
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Reply #2401 on: May 14, 2021, 06:17:44 AM

Honestly, when comics started caring about things like "Tony Stark has been middle aged for 60 years" or "Magneto is super old now isn't he?" is when I stopped caring about comics. They usually handled it poorly and frankly, I never gave a damn. I didn't read comics for realistic story progression. I read them mostly for fun, self contained stories. I liked it when I could pick up a comic and if it wasn't some kind of event, just read about Spiderman's current adventures as a teenager or maybe a college kid or the Xmen dealing with Magneto pulling some shit again.

"We live in a country, where John Lennon takes six bullets in the chest, Yoko Ono was standing right next to him and not one fucking bullet! Explain that to me! Explain that to me, God! Explain it to me, God!" - Denis Leary summing up my feelings about the nature of the universe.
Sky
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Reply #2402 on: May 14, 2021, 08:11:04 AM

some sort of event that triggers a wide-spread activation of latent mutant powers

Like a lab-manufactured virus or a tech tycoon's nanobot-laden vaccine?

Trippy
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Reply #2403 on: May 14, 2021, 12:50:38 PM

I was thinking more at a cosmic-level that would eventually tie into the ultimate baddie for these next phases.
Sir T
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Reply #2404 on: May 14, 2021, 05:05:08 PM

Maybe Galactus finds Planets with Supers extra spicy.

Sometimes irony is pretty ironic.
Trippy
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Reply #2405 on: May 14, 2021, 06:42:33 PM

That is the comic book explanation of why Galactus keeps wanting to devour Earth -- it's extra rich in "life energy" because of all the super-powered beings living there. So they could borrow some form of that for the movies, assuming Galactus is the big baddie.
Khaldun
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Reply #2406 on: May 14, 2021, 06:51:55 PM

The thing about Galactus is that Marvel has hinted over the years that his motivation is almost Thanos-ish (MCU Thanos), in that he seems to be storing up life energy for the end of the universe so that another universe eventually gets born with life energy. They've hinted that if he were to die, the universe is completely boned in the far future, but then again there's plenty of Galactus stories where the opposite is true--he destroys the universe, etc.

I think if we see him, it will likely be the "mindless eater of planets" version that can't be argued with or reasoned with.
schild
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Reply #2407 on: May 23, 2021, 07:44:59 AM

I feel like Galactus would be a terrible followup to Thanos and we should get 5 years of just origin stories and reboot. But of course we're getting Galactus because Silver Surfer is all but confirmed to be on his way to fuck up the power level of everything.
Khaldun
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Reply #2408 on: May 23, 2021, 09:47:30 AM

Yeah, it's a dangerous cycle to begin--"Thor is the most powerful. Wait, no, Thanos messed his shit up easily even before the gauntlet. Wait, no, Captain Marvel blew up his whole ship easily and probably could have taken Thanos if it weren't for the power gem. Wait, no, the Silver Surfer just knocked out Captain Marvel with his pinky finger." etc.

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