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Megrim
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Reply #210 on: July 17, 2011, 09:31:46 PM

Sorry to drag the discussion back to this - I think it has a lot to do with the way they are played. Not to point accusatory fingers, but I suspect you guys haven't quite gotten the most out of your teams, at least from what I've seen. At least, some of the things you should be able to pull of with the skill access you have is very powerful regardless of Tackle.

I think I'm playing you next. What skills should have been taken? (Note, 7 out of my 13 players have a stat increase which may colour it a bit).

The stat boosts certainly do affect it, and the other skillpicks are going to depend heavily on the league meta as well as a player's individual style. For example however, I remember looking through your own and Falconeer's teams, and not seeing even a single Dirty Player. Given how cost-efficient Amazon lineplayers are (up there along with the Norse) , it's very surprising to me that neither of you have sought to even out some of the av7 attrition rates through judicious use of fouling. Another thing was the lack of any real slayer pieces (MB, Piling On, Jump-up on doubles, etc...), although you do have that wonderful st-boosted Blitzer. Very little Fend, and not much Wrestle either, both of which I think benefit av7 teams a heck of a lot more than they do others.

Things like that; it is obviously going to be somewhat situational based on the players involved - but this was the impression which I had.

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Megrim
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Reply #211 on: July 17, 2011, 09:34:32 PM


The +1 also means that even an agility 2 player has a 50% chance of succeeding at a dodge, or a 75% chance with a reroll -- so the part about how your Ogre will totally fail any second dodge in the turn, while probably a good way to think about it most of the time, is not strictly true if the situation becomes desperate enough. Just make sure the first dodge of the turn is the really hard one, if you're going to dodge more than once.


Just wanted to point out that loner makes it 62.5% with reroll.  That said if you're desperate enough and all of your other moves are finished, you've only got about an 11% chance of suffering a casualty if you fail.

I was going to say, is that figuring into it the fact that he is a Loner, so the rr is going to be a coinflip to just work in the first place.

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Reply #212 on: July 18, 2011, 03:26:11 AM


I didn't figure in the Loner, no, but even a 50% chance is a lot better than 'totally going to fail no matter what', which is I think how a lot of people tend to think of agi 2 dodges. I have dodged zombies into crucial positions before -- and yes, absolutely as the last play or as a last-ditch effort, but it does actually work half the time, even without a reroll.
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Reply #213 on: July 18, 2011, 10:40:14 AM

I don't know personally.  It's kind of like fouling for me, with a zombie sure, but your 200k+ ogre?  I'd have to be pretty desperate.  That being said, I've dodged my Krox into open spaces to mark up ballcarriers, but I always hold my breath when I do it  awesome, for real
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Reply #214 on: July 18, 2011, 11:57:00 AM

I very rarely foul - I nearly always need that spare lineswomen tagging someone or acting as a blocker and giving out tacklezones on a close or loose cage (or putting pressure on the ball carrier). Also most of my lineswomen got lucky on their initial roles - two of them have guard, and 3 of them have a stat increase. I was going to give one of my 2 benchwarming lineswomen Dirty player...and she just rolled +1ST on her first skill. My TV is so high already that having a 3rd benchwarmer is pushing it, and I like having 4 rerolls plus a leader reroll.

I do need more girls with Wrestle though.

It's going to be weird playing my game vs your High Elves- I have the ST advantage for once! In my game vs the Wood Elves I got lucky - the Treeman moved ONE square in the entire game and I think threw a total of 2 blocks.


Also, why would you choose +1 armour over +1 Movement when you already have armour 8?
« Last Edit: July 18, 2011, 01:18:33 PM by Comstar »

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Megrim
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Reply #215 on: July 18, 2011, 01:19:07 PM

Well, to make things easier for you, I don't even have a Treeman =p

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Reply #216 on: July 18, 2011, 01:19:11 PM

Wow. Just got to manage my High Elf team at lunch, had 3 level ups from my failoff game against SirT. One of them was Lhynn Swann, a level 1 catcher. Lo and behold, he levels and gets a double - and I just had to give him the +1 STR he got from the roll. Seriously, a 4 STR elven catcher with 8 MA? Just when I think I am going to retire this team for the next f13 season, something like that happens that makes me want to play it again.

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Reply #217 on: July 18, 2011, 04:24:11 PM

I too rarely foul, as I feel like I have a pretty high chance of being sent off, and often times I would rather have my person stay in the game. I also don't use wrestle, as I have universal block. I see how it could be nice, even with block...but there just always seem to be more-important skills to take.

I'm just sort of excited about the next game, as I might even have the chance to play with all of my rerolls if I want. Ohhhhh, I see.

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Reply #218 on: July 18, 2011, 04:32:30 PM

I rarely foul because I can hardly afford to get a dude sent off when half of them have probably gone off due to injury already.

Although I could look at it more like "WHAT'S ONE MORE REALLY IN THE GRAND SCHEME OF THINGS?"  why so serious?

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Reply #219 on: July 18, 2011, 04:48:28 PM

Fouling is something you do with a cheap piece vs. an expensive piece, and usually only if you have a numbers advantage or something too good to pass up. (IMO - there are other philosophies out there towards fouling.) I almost never foul with dwarves, because there are no cheap dwarves. Exception: towards the end of one of those big 8 turn drives, fouling with the deathroller isn't awful, as it has dirty player and is about to get sent off anyway.

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Reply #220 on: July 18, 2011, 05:08:05 PM

Wow. Just got to manage my High Elf team at lunch, had 3 level ups from my failoff game against SirT. One of them was Lhynn Swann, a level 1 catcher. Lo and behold, he levels and gets a double - and I just had to give him the +1 STR he got from the roll. Seriously, a 4 STR elven catcher with 8 MA? Just when I think I am going to retire this team for the next f13 season, something like that happens that makes me want to play it again.

Not only that, but you got it as his first level up so you can use that to build your entire set of skills.  A 4STR catcher with 8 MA is begging to be made into a sacker/ball remover ala a blitzing gutter runner.  High Elf teams usually need to develop one anyway, but yours would be killer.

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Reply #221 on: July 18, 2011, 05:28:43 PM

I very much miss fouling, High Elves don't really have the luxury.  Give me a cheap line-skeleton though, and I will make sure his boots are always dirty!

You obviously(?) have a 1/6 chance of rolling doubles on the armor roll.  If you break armor, you have an injury roll that is another 1/6 chance of rolling doubles.  There are various threads on the Cyanide forums that break out the statistics around fouling, but the gist is that you want to get the target down to AV 6 or so (each assist dropping the target AV by 1) before you're more likely to injure the target than to be sent off yourself.  The fact that the injury will most likely be a stun or KO (which may or may not wake up later), whereas the ejection will always last the whole game, means that it's less "risky" to foul in the second half (when there will be fewer chances for that KO to wake up).

I sitll wouldn't do it with anyone other than a lineman, and preferably on a higher-value target, but if you have some cheap linemen available, you really should be getting your boots dirty on occasion!
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Reply #222 on: July 18, 2011, 11:13:15 PM

Exception: towards the end of one of those big 8 turn drives, fouling with the deathroller isn't awful, as it has dirty player and is about to get sent off anyway.

Ideally, I would look to foul with a Deathroller at the end of Turn 6 on a drive where I have uncontested possession and don't NEED the deathroller to finish it. - Foul turn 6, don't get sent off, foul turn 7, score turn 8.

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Reply #223 on: July 21, 2011, 09:35:47 PM

For my lvl 4 Thrower with block and leader for previous skillups: Accurate or Nerves of Steel?

I can see Accurate being more helpful overall, but since orcs tend to be up-close and personal, I could see Nerves of Steel being reallly useful when I need it. And most of my passing problems stem more from the catching than the throwing, so I'm leaning toward Nerves.

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Reply #224 on: July 21, 2011, 10:03:45 PM

I'd say accurate, but since I started playing Pro Elves, Nerves of Steel is hilarious. Surrounded on all sides? No problem, pass it to someone else!

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Reply #225 on: July 21, 2011, 11:09:23 PM

Nerves of steal is great, but its much more useful on your catchers.  Its actually pretty rare when I find my thrower marked on all sides so I cant just make an easy dodge away and then pass (and I've already fucked up very badly somehow if it actually gets to that point).  Having said that, its a good idea for a passing team to develop a normal QB and an offensive QB.  The offensive QB being somebody who charges in when kicking off to the opponent, skilled so he can pick up the ball out of a crowd and pass it away if somebody manages to knock it loose.  That's the one you want Nerves of Steal for.

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Megrim
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Reply #226 on: July 26, 2011, 02:19:07 PM

I very rarely foul - I nearly always need that spare lineswomen tagging someone or acting as a blocker and giving out tacklezones on a close or loose cage (or putting pressure on the ball carrier). Also most of my lineswomen got lucky on their initial roles - two of them have guard, and 3 of them have a stat increase. I was going to give one of my 2 benchwarming lineswomen Dirty player...and she just rolled +1ST on her first skill. My TV is so high already that having a 3rd benchwarmer is pushing it, and I like having 4 rerolls plus a leader reroll.

I do need more girls with Wrestle though.

It's going to be weird playing my game vs your High Elves- I have the ST advantage for once! In my game vs the Wood Elves I got lucky - the Treeman moved ONE square in the entire game and I think threw a total of 2 blocks.


Also, why would you choose +1 armour over +1 Movement when you already have armour 8?

Sorry, I hadn't seen that you'd edited your post to include that question.

Reason being that the lineman in question had Guard already, so I would like for him him to stay on the pitch and alive for as long as possible. On the other hand, mv6 -> mv7 isn't that big a deal on a HE team, at least not when compared to av8 -> av9 on a key player.

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Reply #227 on: August 19, 2011, 12:06:01 AM



Claws or +1mv? A 9 MV blitzer is pretty tempting, but so is MB and piling on with claws...

Without claws the stats are 15 games, 2 killed, 15 injured, 5 KOs... with claws the sky might be the limit.
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Reply #228 on: August 19, 2011, 12:46:33 AM

I'd go claws.  No question.

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Ice Cream Emperor
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Reply #229 on: August 19, 2011, 04:44:45 AM

I'd go claws.  No question.

Especially given that he has Piling On. Jump Up is another option as well, for that matter.
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Reply #230 on: August 19, 2011, 05:35:50 AM

I'd go claws.  No question.

Especially given that he has Piling On.

Exactly.  You have a player tailor made for creating casualties.  Giving him claw accentuates those skills that he already has.  Giving him another point of movement over claws doesn't make much sense because you already have gutter runners for that stuff.  Unless your GRs suck, and I don't think that they do or else you probably wouldn't have a fifth level stormvermin to begin with.

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Reply #231 on: August 19, 2011, 11:30:45 PM

Yeah I went with the claw after I posted. 9 mv would have been funny though, fastest team on earth!

Have a +str GR and Thrower... Wish my f13 team was as lucky with the rolls. Been out injuring so many teams with this guys and my foulers, including chaos and orc.
Megrim
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Reply #232 on: August 20, 2011, 12:51:54 AM

With both MB and PO on that rat, Claw is a no-brainer. If you had Guard on him, I would have taken +AV, then Stand Firm for a really fast proto-Orc.

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Reply #233 on: August 20, 2011, 01:28:31 AM

I kind of lean towards jump up myself, but claw is obviously a fine pick.

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Reply #234 on: October 07, 2011, 11:57:23 AM

The second lonk on setting up a port forwarding article on the OP no longer works

Sometimes irony is pretty ironic.
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Reply #235 on: November 02, 2011, 10:20:11 PM

Pile On. Does it default to "always jump on a dude" when you make a new league? Or do you not have a choice and will always Pile On if you have Frenzy as well?
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Reply #236 on: November 02, 2011, 10:26:54 PM

You have to toggle the skill in your settings to have have it automatically work. I believe it's client-specific, as opposed to tied to a particular league.

With my 2 zerkers, I'm definitely a fan of the skill.  Oh ho ho ho. Reallllly?

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Reply #237 on: November 02, 2011, 10:28:20 PM

One of the most fun skills going around. My Skaven guy with MB, Claw, Piling On, Tackle was running at two plus casualties per game. Then he died. Rerolled to died. I was unhappy.
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Reply #238 on: November 02, 2011, 10:30:28 PM

Yeah, I never messed with it but I have a Skaven team and put it on my Rat Ogre. He's, uh.... yeah. Wow. It's just that it's always on by default so it's not always smart.
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Reply #239 on: November 03, 2011, 01:21:06 PM

It is well worth going through the skills and setting a bunch of them to prompt you. Off the top of my head, other than piling on you probably also want to do that with at least multiple block and wrestle.

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Reply #240 on: November 03, 2011, 01:45:23 PM

Multiple Block, Wrestle, Piling On, Diving Tackle, Dump Off, Shadowing. Basically anything that puts you prone, makes you move or let go of the ball automatically.

Piling on is a lot of fun but I don't recommend putting it on big guys as the Wild Animal/Bonehead/Take Root + loner will bite you in the ass. Piling on + Jump Up is a particularly good combo on a blitzer.

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Reply #241 on: November 03, 2011, 07:28:50 PM

I swear this was a topic before, but Hail Mary Pass needs to be set to ASK as well.
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Reply #242 on: November 03, 2011, 07:36:32 PM

I can't see myself taking Piling On in most cases unless I already have Jump Up on the piece. At least not on a slow team like dwarves. I need my tackle zones more than I need an armor reroll. It would be another thing if I was specifically setting out to build a killer claw/MB/PO beastman or something.

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Reply #243 on: November 03, 2011, 10:55:54 PM

Norse Beserkers.  DRILLING AND MANLINESS

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Reply #244 on: November 03, 2011, 11:37:57 PM

It would be another thing if I was specifically setting out to build a killer claw/MB/PO beastman or something.

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