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Ingmar
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Reply #175 on: July 11, 2011, 02:42:05 PM

No, no. You're misunderstanding the bug. The bug is only if you win and reroll. The rerolled winnings are wrong. The losing winnings don't change. And if I'm the understanding of the bug is correct, if you win a game and opt not to reroll then the winnings are okay.

I've had losing winnings change on me as well. Maybe they only change if the winner rerolls or something though?

And I can guarantee that you still don't get the right amount even without rerolling, after playing Falc I was supposed to get something quite a bit more than the 30k it gave me (I chose not to reroll.) Hell I think he validated it while we were both still online, so maybe the bug as described isn't even the entire picture.

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Modern Angel
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Reply #176 on: July 11, 2011, 03:02:03 PM

Yeah, it's entirely likely that this is a misunderstanding of the bug. I just figured I'd post it because it's the only thing I've seen which tries to figure out exactly what causes it. If the winnings are fucked no matter what and for everyone, then it's not a valid theory.
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Reply #177 on: July 11, 2011, 04:28:12 PM

Yeah, the money is screwy. After my recent draw game, my bank account actually went down, even though I spent nothing.  Ohhhhh, I see.

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Reply #178 on: July 11, 2011, 04:47:31 PM

It's supposed to if you're over 1750 though.

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Ingmar
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Reply #179 on: July 11, 2011, 04:47:59 PM

Yeah that sounds like spiraling expenses.

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Reply #180 on: July 12, 2011, 02:18:34 AM


The simple solution is just to ignore your in-game winnings result completely and just cope with whatever you get. If you adjust your expectations and just shrug about it, then there you go -- you don't win 'less' money than you 'should' have, or 'more' either, you just don't actually find out how much you win until later.
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Reply #181 on: July 12, 2011, 02:33:07 AM

I would agree, but that would defeat the purpose of the rule that the winner earns the ability to reroll their winnings.

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Reply #182 on: July 12, 2011, 03:35:51 AM


That rule is functionally absent from the game, is all I'm saying, so it's better to just pretend it was never a rule to begin with than to get upset about how it is not implemented.
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Reply #183 on: July 12, 2011, 03:53:13 AM

Is there anywhere that explains in depth how assists work? I know that standing guys next to each other provides assist but there are other odd situations where I see myself getting assists and I don't really know why.

EG

           A C
           B X

A B C are my guys, X is the opponent. I know that if B is blocking then he gets an assist of A but he also gets an assist off C, however this is not always the case, or maybe I am just not noticing it.

Also in a setup like this


            ABXC

B gets an assist of C but not off A when I would have thought the logical assumption would have been the other way round. I have read the article on blocking and checked BB tactics but there doesn't seem to be anywhere that gives an in depth guide to how assists work.
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Reply #184 on: July 12, 2011, 03:57:23 AM

When throwing a block you get an assist for each of your guys that is next to the *target*. Those assists are canceled out if there is another opponent standing next to them, unless they have guard.

Thus, assuming all strength 3 guys:

AX -> A throws a 1d block against X.

AXB -> A throws a 2d block against X as B gives him an assist.

AXBY -> A throws a 1d block against X, because Y is canceling out B's assist.

ZAXBY -> A throws a negative red 2 die block against X, because Z is assisting X.

AXGY -> A throws a 2d block against X, because his ally G has guard which lets him assist no matter what.

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Reply #185 on: July 12, 2011, 04:02:27 AM

Cheers Ingmar that makes sense, silly how easy it is to understand when someone explains it simply.
Strazos
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Reply #186 on: July 12, 2011, 04:47:00 PM

Anyone have a good resource to help calculate what someone can buy with a given amount of inducements?

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Reply #187 on: July 15, 2011, 02:44:39 AM

This is probably a very well known fact in the Blood Bowl universe, but I seriously think that Amazons are kind of a crpapy team, meaning they lose their only advantage (the blodginess) pretty soon since most teams catch up with that and some others start getting tackle here and there, and that leaves them as a terribly generic team with very low AV. I think it's not an accident that both me and Comstar (the two Amazons team in the League) played our worst season ever this time around, after 3 Seasons.

Thoughts?

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Reply #188 on: July 15, 2011, 02:56:08 AM

I would definitely agree that Amazons are one of the weaker squads once the TVs start to get up high. Most of the "everyone has skills" starting teams (amazons, norse, dwarves) are strong at low TV and start to get weaker when the 'raw stats' teams start to level up.

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Reply #189 on: July 15, 2011, 04:25:06 PM

I dunno, I think Amazons can be pretty damn good. If I played them...I'd probably play them similarly to how I play Norse, but with more throwing and dodging. Seems easier to take a universal-dodge team and give them block, than to take Norse and try to get them all dodge (ie - not happening).

Technically, this has been my worst season so far as well, though I easily could have had 2 more wins if not for some heroic late-game dodgy antics from my opponents to preserve draws. And I could have played my season opener better as well.

I would try to look at your replays to see if there's anything I could add, but last time I tried to give friendly advice it...didn't work.

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Ingmar
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Reply #190 on: July 15, 2011, 04:37:05 PM

Here's the thing - when everyone gets their first skill, things are still good for the amazons. They all add block, while everyone on the chaos team adds block. Great, they still have the edge. The problem starts to come with the 2nd and 3rd skils - the amazons add guard on 4 players, and the chaos team adds it on all 11 - and now their strength and armor advantage really starts to come into play.

This happens to all the 'starts with skills' teams to a certain extent - they pay for their starting skill advantage with lukewarm stats and sometimes in poor skill access. The bottom line is that not every skill is equally useful so players with limited skill access really start to look bad once the 3rd and 4th skills start getting added, comparatively speaking. Amazons have it a little worse than Norse or Dwarves on this front imo because they don't have the widespread S access of the dwarf team or the special players of the Norse.

If I were running things one of the roster changes I'd make is giving Amazons some kind of Big Gal to stabilize their line and give them a 5th piece with strength access - an ogress, or something. There's a star player that fits that role (Bertha Bigfist) but she's not available in the computer version.

(The other thing that comes to mind is I would give humans the option to take a couple halflings, much like Orcs have the option to take a couple goblins. That would give them a chance for a one-turner, make the ogre a little sexier, and give the team a cheap fouler without overpowering them in the slightest.)

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Reply #191 on: July 16, 2011, 07:22:42 AM

I disagree with you Ingmar. Humans with a halfling just seems to make them more of a bad Orc copy. Catchers can take The Right Stuff if you want some Ogre QB action.

Amazons might need an ogress but they have 4 blodgers with Strength access.

I'm not sure an Ogress fits the RP side Zons' so I'll let Falc and Com reply
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Reply #192 on: July 16, 2011, 08:42:24 AM

Apparently there is some old role playing lore than says Female Ogres and Trolls like to hang out with the Amazon's, and it would give them a big guy and someone to hold the line, and make the Amazon's more interesting at higher levels. I would make them expensive, MV 5 ST 5, AG 2, AR 8 Boneheaded, throw teammate.

I never thought of giving a Human Catcher the Right Stuff, but it actually makes throwing them pretty good. Don't you also need stunty though?

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Reply #193 on: July 16, 2011, 08:52:15 AM

Apparently there is some old role playing lore than says Female Ogres and Trolls like to hang out with the Amazon's

If we're going by roleplaying lore then No-one should know that Skaven even exist, and het they are playing games of Bloodbowl every week?

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Reply #194 on: July 16, 2011, 09:07:59 AM

Nope just need right stuff
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Reply #195 on: July 16, 2011, 09:24:58 AM

I think a "Big Sister" character would be awesome. Amazon, just BIG.

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Reply #196 on: July 16, 2011, 11:08:25 AM

Right Stuff is extraordinary.
Ingmar
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Reply #197 on: July 16, 2011, 05:48:00 PM

Yeah you can't take The Right Stuff, either you start with it or you're out of luck.

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Reply #198 on: July 17, 2011, 09:00:00 AM

So, I've never really understood dodging through multiple tacklezones. Playing humans, its never really been an issue, as I've tried to avoid moving through red whenever possible. However I just took break tackle on my 6str ogre, and now find myself wondering how exactly the mechanics work for something like that. If anyone would like to spread some knowledge, what kind of rolls would a 6str ogre need to make going through 2, 3, or 4 tackle zones?
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Reply #199 on: July 17, 2011, 09:31:57 AM

Its not based on strength, its based on agility. I dont know the actual formula (soneone else will have to help with that) but basicly every tackle zone thats on that square adds one to the difficulty of dodging into it. And yes. its retarded that you can't actually see the number you need to roll on the UI

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Reply #200 on: July 17, 2011, 09:41:09 AM

From the tooltip break tackle takes your strength score rather than agility when rolling for dodge rolls, so with str 6 a straight dodge is 2+ to make since my understanding is a 1 is always a critical fail and a 6 is always a critical success.

Each tackle zone you dodge into is -1 so 1 tackle zone = 3+
2 tackle zones = 4+
3 tackles zone = 5+
4+ tackle zones = 6
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Reply #201 on: July 17, 2011, 10:40:25 AM

with str 6 a straight dodge is 2+ to make since my understanding is a 1 is always a critical fail and a 6 is always a critical success.

Yes, each TZ covering a square is -1.  But while a natural 1 always fails, I believe a modified 1 can still succeed for an AG 6+ guy!  Technically AG 6 requires a 1+ roll, with a +1 for the dodge.  So to dodge into 3 TZs, that's a 1+ roll, modified with +1 dodge and -3 TZs, to give you a 3+ roll.  That means dodging into 0, 1, or 2 TZs all only fail with a critical 1.  Someone check my maths!
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Reply #202 on: July 17, 2011, 11:00:40 AM

So, I've never really understood dodging through multiple tacklezones. Playing humans, its never really been an issue, as I've tried to avoid moving through red whenever possible. However I just took break tackle on my 6str ogre, and now find myself wondering how exactly the mechanics work for something like that.

Also note that if you ever roll doubles and don't want to take block, having the Dodge gives you a reroll on break-tackle too. A Blodge break-tackle Ogre is pretty much unstoppable.

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Reply #203 on: July 17, 2011, 11:49:01 AM

This is probably a very well known fact in the Blood Bowl universe, but I seriously think that Amazons are kind of a crpapy team, meaning they lose their only advantage (the blodginess) pretty soon since most teams catch up with that and some others start getting tackle here and there, and that leaves them as a terribly generic team with very low AV. I think it's not an accident that both me and Comstar (the two Amazons team in the League) played our worst season ever this time around, after 3 Seasons.

Thoughts?

Sorry to drag the discussion back to this - I think it has a lot to do with the way they are played. Not to point accusatory fingers, but I suspect you guys haven't quite gotten the most out of your teams, at least from what I've seen. At least, some of the things you should be able to pull of with the skill access you have is very powerful regardless of Tackle.

But that's not saying much, given that I've never played an Amazon team. From what I've seen though, it seems to be very common that people vastly over-rate Amazon teams "in theory", while under-justify them in performance.

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Reply #204 on: July 17, 2011, 12:58:33 PM

So, I've never really understood dodging through multiple tacklezones. Playing humans, its never really been an issue, as I've tried to avoid moving through red whenever possible. However I just took break tackle on my 6str ogre, and now find myself wondering how exactly the mechanics work for something like that. If anyone would like to spread some knowledge, what kind of rolls would a 6str ogre need to make going through 2, 3, or 4 tackle zones?

One of the more important things to remember about break tackle is that it only works once a turn.  Every dodge after the first in a move with that ogre will go back to being based off of agility and will fail damn near every time.
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Reply #205 on: July 17, 2011, 01:01:45 PM

Sorry to drag the discussion back to this - I think it has a lot to do with the way they are played. Not to point accusatory fingers, but I suspect you guys haven't quite gotten the most out of your teams, at least from what I've seen. At least, some of the things you should be able to pull of with the skill access you have is very powerful regardless of Tackle.

I think I'm playing you next. What skills should have been taken? (Note, 7 out of my 13 players have a stat increase which may colour it a bit).

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Reply #206 on: July 17, 2011, 02:07:16 PM

Its not based on strength, its based on agility. I dont know the actual formula (soneone else will have to help with that) but basicly every tackle zone thats on that square adds one to the difficulty of dodging into it. And yes. its retarded that you can't actually see the number you need to roll on the UI

He took break tackle, so his first dodge every turn will be based on str. Agreed on the UI not advertising the roll.

Celer has the odds right, also.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2011, 02:09:15 PM by Ingmar »

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Reply #207 on: July 17, 2011, 07:30:42 PM

its retarded that you can't actually see the number you need to roll on the UI

By far my biggest gripe about the game.

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Reply #208 on: July 17, 2011, 07:37:42 PM


Yeah, the important thing to remember is that any Dodge gets a +1 -- there are actually very few things in the game that use an unmodified agility roll (Leap being the most notable, and dangerous, example), which is part of what makes the UI fail so aggravating.

Because of the +1 to all dodges, even an Agility 4 (or Strength 4 with break tackle) dodge into an open space already has the maximum possible chance of success -- which is to say you only fail on a 1.

So your Ogre can actually Dodge through two tackle zones as trivially as he can dodge into an open space, which makes him an absolute terror to a thinly-screened cage. (A dodge into a cage is into 3 tackle zones, so if you have a reroll that's almost a 90% chance of success.)

The +1 also means that even an agility 2 player has a 50% chance of succeeding at a dodge, or a 75% chance with a reroll -- so the part about how your Ogre will totally fail any second dodge in the turn, while probably a good way to think about it most of the time, is not strictly true if the situation becomes desperate enough. Just make sure the first dodge of the turn is the really hard one, if you're going to dodge more than once.



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Reply #209 on: July 17, 2011, 09:30:09 PM


The +1 also means that even an agility 2 player has a 50% chance of succeeding at a dodge, or a 75% chance with a reroll -- so the part about how your Ogre will totally fail any second dodge in the turn, while probably a good way to think about it most of the time, is not strictly true if the situation becomes desperate enough. Just make sure the first dodge of the turn is the really hard one, if you're going to dodge more than once.


Just wanted to point out that loner makes it 62.5% with reroll.  That said if you're desperate enough and all of your other moves are finished, you've only got about an 11% chance of suffering a casualty if you fail.
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