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Author Topic: A Theory of Fun  (Read 37518 times)
Jain Zar
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Posts: 1362


Reply #140 on: February 03, 2005, 09:09:08 PM

Quote from: Margalis

Edit: SquareSoft is far more innovative than Blizzard. They produced, let's see: the Final Fantasy job system, the FF active time battle system, the entire Romancing Saga series (that has a lot of wacky stuff in it, including being able to start as a lot of different characters), Secret of Mana (3 player simultaneous adventure/RPG), etc etc. The Romancing Saga series in particular gets pretty out there. Blizzard hasn't really ever done anything other than provide a minor evolution in gameplay or simply better deliver something that has already been done. The delivery is clearly their strength.


Job switching first appeared in Wizardry 1, 1980-81 release date.  And more popular in Japan than it was in the US where it originated.  Active Time Battle is just an intitative/action system lifted from tons of tabletop RPGs and the odd computer RPG.  Stuart Smith had 8 bit RPGs that allowed 15 people to play simultaneously.  Again.  Squaresoft is about as innovative as Blizzard.  Its not innovation, its taking pre existing ideas, making them slick, and knowing how to market them.
Pineapple
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Reply #141 on: February 03, 2005, 09:28:39 PM

Quote from: Raph
We go into every game with the goal of avoiding grinds. :) Really, it surprises me how many people think developers are willfully ignoring everyone--it's really not that so much as how easy it is to lose sight of what you're trying to do.


I dont think you were ignoring everyone. I think it was very misguided designing. Whoever designed the crafting and Jedi systems probably thought it was going to be loved and be the coolest thing ever. Next time, get some outside opinions when it's early enough to make changes. And not from catass hardcores only, but regular gamers.

So yes, losing sight. I would say so. From the first pen to paper, it was that.

I have a hard time believing that the goal is to avoid grinding, after SWG's skills and Jedi system. It sems like that was the core point of those systems. A fun timesink I can handle, but not those.

And then it hurt the social aspect by encouraging people to sit in their house all day and grind on it. People tried hard to macro it, and if they didnt they were really an insane one. Didn't you say something long ago about people trying to macro out the boring parts of a game? But I think the need for timesinks and longevity were the top goals. We have to keep them subscribed until our first expansion! Summon the grinds!
Margalis
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Reply #142 on: February 03, 2005, 09:43:53 PM

Quote from: Jain Zar

Job switching first appeared in Wizardry 1, 1980-81 release date.  And more popular in Japan than it was in the US where it originated.  Active Time Battle is just an intitative/action system lifted from tons of tabletop RPGs and the odd computer RPG.  Stuart Smith had 8 bit RPGs that allowed 15 people to play simultaneously.  Again.  Squaresoft is about as innovative as Blizzard.  Its not innovation, its taking pre existing ideas, making them slick, and knowing how to market them.


For any system in any game, someone else can mention an earlier game or system that was somewhat similar.

The point is in Blizzard games it's all recent history and immediately obvious.

Active Time Battle is not just an initiative/action system. The fundamental tenants are this:

1: Characters you control can act at variable speeds, EVEN when performing the same tasks.
2: Enemies also act at variable speeds.
3: Enemies can act while you are issuing commands. (The game doesn't pause while you futz around)

No, it's not the most amazing thing since sliced bread, but it is somewhat novel. Secret of Mana was somewhat novel. You glossed over the Romancing Saga series, which is the best example - I'll just assume you don't know much about the series.

Name any system of any game made in the last 5 years and I'll name an earlier game that does something somewhat similar. That doesn't show anything.

Hell, even the FFX "sphere grid" is pretty different from most level-up systems.

With a typical Blizzard game there's basically nothing that isn't readily available in games still being sold in stores. Not 8-bit RPGs, TODAYS RPGs.

vampirehipi23: I would enjoy a book written by a monkey and turned into a movie rather than this.
Raph
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Title delayed while we "find the fun."


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Reply #143 on: February 04, 2005, 01:06:52 AM

Quote from: Margalis


Player justice and player-created content are both pervasive myths. There's never been a game where either was worth a darn.


There is, fortunately, evidence that you are wrong, because there are such games out there.

I do agree that they are rare and difficult to create, however, abd once made, they don't appeal to everyone.
Margalis
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Reply #144 on: February 04, 2005, 01:45:00 AM

Quote from: Raph
Quote from: Margalis

Player justice and player-created content are both pervasive myths. There's never been a game where either was worth a darn.


There is, fortunately, evidence that you are wrong, because there are such games out there.

I do agree that they are rare and difficult to create, however, abd once made, they don't appeal to everyone.


Ok, name one. (Logical response) I would not count the Sims or There as examples of player created content in the MMORPG sense. Nor would I count mods, skin packs, or those sorts of things. When I say player created content I mean in a MMORPG setting. (There are plenty of genres where player created content adds a lot of course)

A lot of devs seem to think they can create games where players will give other players missions and that can be part of the "storyline" of the game or something to do. Of course, they miss a couple fundamental problems:

1: If I create a mission, how do I pay for it? Especially given that the most important loot, XP, is non-transferable.

2: Why don't I just do the mission myself?

3: Is the mission fun at all?

On paper it sounds great. I'm a mage and I need some magical basilisk eyeball but I'm frail and basilisks only live on some remote island so I'll send you, hearty fighter, out to get it and pay you with some riches or something.

In reality, most player-created missions are "pay me 300 gold and I'll teleport you."

I can't think of any MMORPG that allows for a real variety of player-created content - models, textures, dungeons or anything like that. I guess there are technical concerns, legal concerns, etc. How about, I can use any .jpg I want as the skin for my cape? I can't think of a game that even does that.

I think that's because models and textures are concrete but missions are abstract. If you are going to allow people to create textures you have to give the a way to upload them, a way to distribute them to other players, etc.

Player created missions don't take any work. Hey, player A will naturally just ask Player B to do something for him! Free content!

vampirehipi23: I would enjoy a book written by a monkey and turned into a movie rather than this.
Ironwood
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Reply #145 on: February 04, 2005, 04:14:03 AM

Quote from: Raph
We go into every game with the goal of avoiding grinds. :) Really, it surprises me how many people think developers are willfully ignoring everyone--it's really not that so much as how easy it is to lose sight of what you're trying to do.



See, this is one of the problems with the internet.  There's no way of telling if you said this with a straight face, or, as I imagine, laughing aloud like Ming the Merciless.

Developers ARE willfully ignoring everyone.  You have this incredible view that we should judge you guys on what you say, not what you do.  A five year old child knows not to do this.

My suggestion ?  If it's really as bad as you say, then there NEEDS to be a department of 'Keeping Sight Of What We Need To Do'.  A bunch of guys that walk around the cubicles of the rest and wield hammers.  Really big fucking hammers.

"Watcha doin', Ted ?"
"Well, I thought it would be really keen if the way to Jedi was catassing our way through all the professions, rather than all those good ideas Raph had in the Development, Bob !"
"Ok.  Ted ?  Look over there."
WHAM.


Or, you could actually come clean with the truth and just admit that at the bottom line, companies like money and we, as consumers, have proven that we'll buy the same load of grindy shit you put out as long as it has a 'new' feature.

"Mr Soft Owl has Seen Some Shit." - Sun Tzu
SirBruce
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Reply #146 on: February 04, 2005, 04:14:47 AM

I would mention two games offhand that are heavy with player-created content:

Furcadia
Second Life

It's also important to note that A Tale In The Desert also allows a different form of player-created control in the form of passing laws.

Bruce
Ironwood
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Reply #147 on: February 04, 2005, 04:24:12 AM

Quote from: Margalis
 
I can't think of any MMORPG that allows for a real variety of player-created content - models, textures, dungeons or anything like that. I guess there are technical concerns, legal concerns, etc. How about, I can use any .jpg I want as the skin for my cape? I can't think of a game that even does that.



Please.

Exactly how many nanoseconds before some guy was wearing a cape with two hands roughly pulling apart a rectum ?

Don't.

"Mr Soft Owl has Seen Some Shit." - Sun Tzu
schmoo
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Reply #148 on: February 04, 2005, 05:14:22 AM

Quote from: Ironwood
Quote from: Margalis
 
I can't think of any MMORPG that allows for a real variety of player-created content - models, textures, dungeons or anything like that. I guess there are technical concerns, legal concerns, etc. How about, I can use any .jpg I want as the skin for my cape? I can't think of a game that even does that.



Please.

Exactly how many nanoseconds before some guy was wearing a cape with two hands roughly pulling apart a rectum ?

Don't.


Not to mention the logistics problem of ,say, 100,000 players, each of which has his own cape texture file, which has to be distributed to the other 99,999 players.  You do the math.
Pineapple
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Reply #149 on: February 04, 2005, 10:14:36 AM

Quote from: Raph


There is, fortunately, evidence that you are wrong, because there are such games out there.

I do agree that they are rare and difficult to create, however, abd once made, they don't appeal to everyone.


True, but lets stay on the subject of MMOGs please.

Bruce mentioned Furcadia, but I wouldnt really consider that a serious attempt at a game. It is more of a place for Furry pervs to meet online.
Margalis
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Reply #150 on: February 04, 2005, 10:34:47 AM

Quote from: SirBruce

Furcadia
Second Life

It's also important to note that A Tale In The Desert also allows a different form of player-created control in the form of passing laws.


ATITD does succeed in having players create abstract content, which is a very hard thing to do.

Furcadia and Second Life...whatever. Z-list MMORPGs.

I'm not saying players creating textures is a good thing. (Actually, I do think it is a good thing if you can administer it) My point was simply that player-justic and player-created-content sound great on paper but haven't been shown to work in real life.

vampirehipi23: I would enjoy a book written by a monkey and turned into a movie rather than this.
d4rkj3di
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Reply #151 on: February 04, 2005, 11:54:11 AM

Quote from: Ironwood

Please.

Exactly how many nanoseconds before some guy was wearing a cape with two hands roughly pulling apart a rectum ?

Don't.

You've never been to Goon Town in Second Life, have you?

As to player justice, it breaks down into "Witch Hunt" followed by "Lynch Mob" followed by "This game is boring, there's nobody playing" (See: JumpGate)

ATITD attempts to take care of this by making the Player Justice more Non-Violent, but remeber violence is not necessary to violate.  Politics can be more vicious than Warfare in terms of damage done.

And, two things to close with:

1) I'm buying the book this weekend, after reading the .PDF from Raph's site

2) It's amazing that in two threads where Raph talks, someone has been ejected from f13.

^^ Now that's fun!
HaemishM
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Posts: 41916

the Confederate flag underneath the stone in my class ring


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Reply #152 on: February 04, 2005, 12:24:35 PM

Quote from: Raph
Quote from: Margalis


Player justice and player-created content are both pervasive myths. There's never been a game where either was worth a darn.


There is, fortunately, evidence that you are wrong, because there are such games out there.

I do agree that they are rare and difficult to create, however, abd once made, they don't appeal to everyone.


And I believe that such games are VERY LOW POPULATION games, because those kind of things only work when the press of general insipid humanity is not knocking down the proverbial door.

Also, I just got the book last night and started reading it. So far, I like it.

Raph
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Posts: 1471

Title delayed while we "find the fun."


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Reply #153 on: February 04, 2005, 12:57:16 PM

Quote from: Margalis


ATITD does succeed in having players create abstract content, which is a very hard thing to do.

Furcadia and Second Life...whatever. Z-list MMORPGs.


Interesting--they're both significantly larger than ATITD--order of magnitude larger. Why do you write them off?

I did say that the audience appears to be limited--there's countless muds based on player content, and that make use of player justice, but none of them are huge. Dundee managed to make a UO gray shard where player justice worked.

In terms of games in general there are of course zillions, ranging from Sims to NWN.

Part of the reason to be a believer, though, is that the web is built in large measure on "player content," as are many individual popular websites.

Or this website. :)
Margalis
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Reply #154 on: February 04, 2005, 01:17:19 PM

Quote from: Raph
Quote from: Margalis

ATITD does succeed in having players create abstract content, which is a very hard thing to do.

Furcadia and Second Life...whatever. Z-list MMORPGs.


Interesting--they're both significantly larger than ATITD--order of magnitude larger. Why do you write them off?


Because I don't care about them, and nobody else here does either.

I don't think it's impossible to get player justice and player content to work. But it takes a lot of work. You have to orient your game the right way, provide the right tools, etc.

Again, you see a lot of people saying things like "players will send other players on missions" without thinking it through or providing any real incentive or reason to do so. Sure, you COULD send some players on some missions, but why would you?

vampirehipi23: I would enjoy a book written by a monkey and turned into a movie rather than this.
Toast
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Reply #155 on: February 04, 2005, 01:23:25 PM

There's player justice (and arguably content) in World of Warcraft on the PvP servers.

When a low level guild member is getting "ganked" and/or camped by higher level players, he/she often calls in high level friends to help out. The high level players mount up and come to the rescue.

There's a component of revenge, personal protection, and protecting other players on your team from the gankers. This high level cavalry gets no reward outside of the gratitude and the +reputation that comes from helping out team members.

A good idea is a good idea forever.
Pineapple
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Reply #156 on: February 04, 2005, 01:45:46 PM

Quote from: Raph

I did say that the audience appears to be limited--there's countless muds based on player content, and that make use of player justice, but none of them are huge. Dundee managed to make a UO gray shard where player justice worked.



Those MUDs are irrevelant to the vast majority of today's online gamers. Anyone that fails to fully understand this is to be out of touch with the MMOG gaming community that exists today.

I am glad to hear that you recognize that the audience appears to be limited.

And also, I am sure that there was some form of moderation going on Dundee's shard. Whether it be invitation only, or bannings/silencing, some form of moderation outside of the gameplay has to occur.

Even /ignore tools and banning from a residence are not "player justice", they are merely tools that replace having a GM standing right there next to you as you play. So I'm not sure what type of player justice the Sims could possibly have.
Raph
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Title delayed while we "find the fun."


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Reply #157 on: February 04, 2005, 01:52:35 PM

Quote from: Pineapple

Those MUDs are irrevelant to the vast majority of today's online gamers. Anyone that fails to fully understand this is to be out of touch with the MMOG gaming community that exists today.


Given that most of you are still playing the same game as on those muds, I question this statement. Yes, they're irrelevant in that you're not playing them and few people are relatviely spoekaing, but they aren't irrelevant in that there's a lot of learning and possible direction to be taken from them, just as there is from the indie MMO scene.

Quote
And also, I am sure that there was some form of moderation going on Dundee's shard. Whether it be invitation only, or bannings/silencing, some form of moderation outside of the gameplay has to occur.

Even /ignore tools and banning from a residence are not "player justice", they are merely tools that replace having a GM standing right there next to you as you play. So I'm not sure what type of player justice the Sims could possibly have.


"Player justice" doesn't mean the absence of moderation. It just means empowering players to take actions without a moderator. I do count tools like house ejection as a form of it, for example.
HaemishM
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the Confederate flag underneath the stone in my class ring


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Reply #158 on: February 04, 2005, 01:56:05 PM

Quote from: Toast
There's player justice (and arguably content) in World of Warcraft on the PvP servers.

When a low level guild member is getting "ganked" and/or camped by higher level players, he/she often calls in high level friends to help out. The high level players mount up and come to the rescue.

There's a component of revenge, personal protection, and protecting other players on your team from the gankers. This high level cavalry gets no reward outside of the gratitude and the +reputation that comes from helping out team members.


All of which really means jack and shit to the lowbies that got ganked, at least to most of the MMOG population's viewpoint. The reason Trammel developed and flourished is because people didn't want to be avenged, they didn't want to be bothered in any way, shape or form.

Of course, if you are on a PVP server, you have accepted that you will get ganked at some point. Thus, player justice on a PVP server isn't the same as on a server where PVP is not assumed to be non-consensual.

Pineapple
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Reply #159 on: February 04, 2005, 01:56:27 PM

Quote from: Toast

When a low level guild member is getting "ganked" and/or camped by higher level players, he/she often calls in high level friends to help out. The high level players mount up and come to the rescue.



That is an aspect of PVP, and an illusion of player justice. But it doesnt replace having some sort of Support or gameplay guidelines that are enforced by Blizzard.

You cant ban me from the area. I can wait until you and your friends leave the area, and return to my newbie ganking very easily. So lets say you return to deal with me again. Are you going to waste the whole night doing this? You have no way to prevent me from coming back. All you can do is send me to the graveyard that is 30 seconds away, but I dont mind.

Eventually you get tired of me coming back, because I have done it 200+ times. You have wasted a whole evening dealing with me, and either you leave or call a GM. Calling a GM isnt player justice.

If I kill newbies and leave before you and your friends get there, what justice can you possibly serve on me? I'm gone. The likelihood that you will ever actually pay me back for that incident is slim to none. The likelihood that I have learned not to do it again would be zero.
Pineapple
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Reply #160 on: February 04, 2005, 02:08:13 PM

Quote from: Raph


Given that most of you are still playing the same game as on those muds, I question this statement. Yes, they're irrelevant in that you're not playing them and few people are relatviely spoekaing, but they aren't irrelevant in that there's a lot of learning and possible direction to be taken from them, just as there is from the indie MMO scene.


Not quite. Just because EQ and others were born from earlier MUDs doesnt mean they are the same thing. For one, the society size is much different. That in itself is a huge difference.

The support departments are different, and need to be to handle an MMOG. The gameplay has been changed and evolved to accomodate the larger playerbase. Shall I even go through all of the changes EQ did to corral or guide player behavior, simply because of the large amount of people playing?

You shouldnt be looking to MUDs for guidance on your next games. You should be looking at today's games, to elevate up to tomorrow's games. I fear for your next game more than ever now.

Comparing it to indie films is completely apples to oranges. A better comparison would be comparing a small colonial town in the 1700's to Los Angeles today. You decide which you want to study for inspiration for the next large city. I'll be over playing WoW k thx.
Pineapple
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Reply #161 on: February 04, 2005, 02:29:41 PM

Quote from: Raph

"Player justice" doesn't mean the absence of moderation. It just means empowering players to take actions without a moderator. I do count tools like house ejection as a form of it, for example.


Now be careful there, in the way that you are defining player justice.

Because I feel they are actually two seperate things, a house banning and what players think when they hear the term "player justice".

You do not want to empower people with tools that would allow them to grief others. For example, throwing another player in some sort of jail. so just how powerful do you make these tools? Only power enough to keep you from messaging me, or getting into my residence.

This I equate to an email filter. So does an email filter empower me to prevent the problem? Sure. Should it be thought of in ANY way as a justice measurement? Not really. No "justice" of any sort took place.

Perhaps another term is needed for ignore features or house bannings.

Added: Doing things to get ready for my trip. No more replies from me now.
d4rkj3di
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Reply #162 on: February 04, 2005, 02:32:26 PM

Player Justice on WoW PvP servers isn't possible for another reason.  What happens when that lowbie is being griefed by members of his own Faction?  What recourse does he have then?

Player Justice is something that will probably never be fully realized in any large MMO, for the simple fact that people will resort to Extreme Justice and Vigilantism everytime.  If not, they will just abuse the game mechanics in order to make life online as unbearable as possible for others.  This is the part where Raph explains why /citywarn had to be removed from SWG, hehe.
Margalis
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Reply #163 on: February 04, 2005, 03:49:53 PM

Quote from: Raph

Given that most of you are still playing the same game as on those muds, I question this statement.


No, we aren't.

I really don't understand how people don't get this. Do you also see TV as another form of radio, which is another form of books, which are another form of sign language?

MMORPGS = Mud + graphics is as true as
TV = book + image & sound

It's a foolish comparison that totally relegates sound, graphics and user input to mere window dressing.

vampirehipi23: I would enjoy a book written by a monkey and turned into a movie rather than this.
sidereal
Contributor
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Reply #164 on: February 04, 2005, 04:11:57 PM

Half Life2 = Zork + graphics

Anybody can play!

THIS IS THE MOST I HAVE EVERY WANTED TO GET IN TO A BETA
stray
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Reply #165 on: February 04, 2005, 04:13:27 PM

Quote from: Margalis
Quote from: Raph

Given that most of you are still playing the same game as on those muds, I question this statement.


No, we aren't.

I really don't understand how people don't get this. Do you also see TV as another form of radio, which is another form of books, which are another form of sign language?

MMORPGS = Mud + graphics is as true as
TV = book + image & sound

It's a foolish comparison that totally relegates sound, graphics and user input to mere window dressing.


The sad thing is that what Raph says is true. At the moment, they're basically no better than MUD's. Graphics and sound are still mere window dressing. Where I do agree with you and not with Raph is that this isn't where they should be.
d4rkj3di
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Reply #166 on: February 04, 2005, 04:13:52 PM

Quote from: Margalis
Quote from: Raph

Given that most of you are still playing the same game as on those muds, I question this statement.


No, we aren't.

I really don't understand how people don't get this. Do you also see TV as another form of radio, which is another form of books, which are another form of sign language?

MMORPGS = Mud + graphics is as true as
TV = book + image & sound

It's a foolish comparison that totally relegates sound, graphics and user input to mere window dressing.

But, TV is nothing more than a book + image and sound.  And yes, sound, graphics and user input are mere window dressing.

How a game plays, and how much fun you have playing it, have nothing to do with how shiny, sparkly, or "immersive" you try to make it.  I've had more fun in games where I read "You hit the bad thing for 6 hps of damage!" than in a game where my million polygon uber graphically detailed character swung a particle effect at a creature and a little red "6" jumped off its head.

At the base level, MMORPG's are nothing more than Text MUDs + Shiny.  And Shiny is all most people need before they start in like Pavlov's Dogs.  It's the same old song and dance, they just made the orchestra bigger, and gave the dancers sequined outfits.

Time to get ready for my D&D session tonight, hehe.
Raph
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Title delayed while we "find the fun."


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Reply #167 on: February 04, 2005, 04:24:52 PM

Quote
Just because EQ and others were born from earlier MUDs doesnt mean they are the same thing. For one, the society size is much different. That in itself is a huge difference.


You hardly need to tell me that size makes a difference. :)

Quote
The gameplay has been changed and evolved to accomodate the larger playerbase. Shall I even go through all of the changes EQ did to corral or guide player behavior, simply because of the large amount of people playing?


We're talking at cross-purposes here. Pretty much everything you cite is going to be at one level of granularity, and I am talking about features at a different level of granularity altogether.

Quote
You shouldnt be looking to MUDs for guidance on your next games. You should be looking at today's games, to elevate up to tomorrow's games.


I think a better way to think of it is that you look at everything that might apply. Today's games, for better or worse, have taken a pretty small subset of what was available from muds. It doesn't mean that everything they left behind is not worth pursuing.

That doesn't mean you ignore today's games, not at all.

Quote
Comparing it to indie films is completely apples to oranges. A better comparison would be comparing a small colonial town in the 1700's to Los Angeles today. You decide which you want to study for inspiration for the next large city. I'll be over playing WoW k thx.


I didn't compare to indie films, I compared to indie MMOs, such as Puzzle Pirates, ATITD, Second Life, and so on.

And your example is poorly chosen--using village-sized models is a HUGE trend in urban planning and has been for a while now. It doesn't mean you ignore the lessons of Los Angeles. It does mean that there are worthwhile things in the smaller scale that can help a project like Los Angeles.

Quote
Now be careful there, in the way that you are defining player justice.

Because I feel they are actually two seperate things, a house banning and what players think when they hear the term "player justice".


To me, it's about invididuals or groups being able to take action against other individuals or groups. Whether or not a given action is defined as punitive very much depends on circumstance. A house banning and a banning from a city based on player vote are on a spectrum, in my mind.
Denial of service is punitive, after all.

Quote
This is the part where Raph explains why /citywarn had to be removed from SWG, hehe.


Because cities were placed where they blocked access to content that the city was not ever intended to control. That is not an issue with /citywarn, but with city placement rules, however.

Quote
I really don't understand how people don't get this. Do you also see TV as another form of radio, which is another form of books, which are another form of sign language?

MMORPGS = Mud + graphics is as true as
TV = book + image & sound

It's a foolish comparison that totally relegates sound, graphics and user input to mere window dressing.


It comes down to whether the graphics are significant in your moment to moment play of the game. If you could successfully play the game solely by reading the text putput, then yeah, the graphics ARE window dressing.

In MMORPGs, the main things that graphics have added are

- scenery
- discrete movement (which led to some behaviors like pulling and kiting, and greater awareness of proximity of enemies)
- ranged attacks

The feedback given you by the game in almost all of this is still mostly in the form of text, and when it's not, it's easily represented in text. The few cases where it is not are mostly the instances where the combat action in question has a lot to do with the spatial relationship between the mobs and the player. But few of the games exploit this that much.

A game which clearly could NOT be done in text is Planetside. But most of the others, you could certainly get 95% of the way there in terms of raw mechanics. The aesthetic experience is a whole other issue.

Not to re-rail the topic or anything, but if you read the book, it does discuss this. Basically, muds to mmorpgs *right now* (not forever, I hope) is mostly like comparing chess on a board to a nice 3d chess on a computer. The pieces might grunt and swing, but the action is still mostly representable on the traditional board.
stray
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Reply #168 on: February 04, 2005, 04:38:37 PM

Quote
But, TV is nothing more than a book + image and sound. And yes, sound, graphics and user input are mere window dressing.


Screenplay writing is completely different than novels. Novels are full of pages of material describing character thoughts, feelings, contemplation, internal conflict, etc.

Films scripts are constructed in a way tell stories by being visual. They're meant to be acted out, not read. Words are substituted with actions and imagery, and as a general rule, they "show" rather than "tell".
d4rkj3di
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Reply #169 on: February 04, 2005, 05:06:00 PM

Quote from: Stray
Quote
But, TV is nothing more than a book + image and sound. And yes, sound, graphics and user input are mere window dressing.


Screenplay writing is completely different than novels. Novels are full of pages of material describing character thoughts, feelings, contemplation, internal conflict, etc.

Films scripts are constructed in a way tell stories by being visual. They're meant to be acted out, not read. Words are substituted with actions and events, and as a general rule, they "show" rather than "tell".

But if I read the book, and you saw the movie, would we not have both been exposed to the same story?  The facts of the story do not change, regardless of the medium used to tell it.  We would both be able to relate elements of that story to one another and others who did not read or watch, and no one would be able to tell who read or who watched.  Except you would have to say "The book was better", heh.

Edit - Perhaps a more fair assessment would have been TV = Written Word + image and sound.
Murgos
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Reply #170 on: February 04, 2005, 05:11:06 PM

Quote from: d4rkj3di
But if I read the book, and you saw the movie, would we not have both been exposed to the same story? ...and no one would be able to tell who read or who watched....


I can't think of one movie & book combo off the top of my head where this is true.

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Reply #171 on: February 04, 2005, 05:22:15 PM

Quote from: Raph
Quote
I really don't understand how people don't get this. Do you also see TV as another form of radio, which is another form of books, which are another form of sign language?

MMORPGS = Mud + graphics is as true as
TV = book + image & sound

It's a foolish comparison that totally relegates sound, graphics and user input to mere window dressing.


It comes down to whether the graphics are significant in your moment to moment play of the game. If you could successfully play the game solely by reading the text putput, then yeah, the graphics ARE window dressing.


But, it seems like it's more than just a scale and shiny issue.

The players who participated in and enjoy text mud's seem to be a small subset of the groups of folks playing all these mmorpgs.  A lot of people just don't "get" text games, not matter what the game in question is supposed to be about.

In other words, if EQ was basically a graphical version of the mud Sojourn (iirc), why weren't their tons more people playing the latter before the former was made?  It can't be just market awareness and boxes on shelves.

I think their is a huge gap in expectations between mud players and todays mmorpg players, just like there is between pen and paper D&D players and computer rpg players.  Sure, the mechanics and underlying game system might beging with the same rules, but in reality the two are very very different experiences.  And the players of each have very different expectations accordingly.

In other words, what do you think player expectation were of something like the jedi system in SWG compared to what they actually got?

The further i go in life the more I beleive success or failure is about understanding and managing expectations.

Xilren

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HRose
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Reply #172 on: February 04, 2005, 05:23:35 PM

Quote from: Raph
Quote
I really don't understand how people don't get this. Do you also see TV as another form of radio, which is another form of books, which are another form of sign language?

MMORPGS = Mud + graphics is as true as
TV = book + image & sound

It's a foolish comparison that totally relegates sound, graphics and user input to mere window dressing.


It comes down to whether the graphics are significant in your moment to moment play of the game. If you could successfully play the game solely by reading the text putput, then yeah, the graphics ARE window dressing.

In MMORPGs, the main things that graphics have added are

- scenery
- discrete movement (which led to some behaviors like pulling and kiting, and greater awareness of proximity of enemies)
- ranged attacks

This was my main argument when I commented Richard Bartle's article and recently wrote how I'd like to see the genre improve and evolve.

I'd like to know your opinion because for me the evidence is how obsolete is the development of this genre.

It's the evidence of a glaring mistake, not an argument to confirm that the graphic is just a dress.

I hope you know who's Marshall McLuhan, also.

-HRose / Abalieno
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Murgos
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Reply #173 on: February 04, 2005, 10:00:27 PM


"You have all recieved youre last warning. I am in the process of currently tracking all of youre ips and pinging your home adressess. you should not have commencemed a war with me" - Aaron Rayburn
SirBruce
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Reply #174 on: February 04, 2005, 10:51:05 PM

He probably knows that, since he posted in the thread.

Clearly people wanted SWG to be a better game.  I don't think it can be fixed now, though; a game's reputation becomes fixed.  SOE would be better advised to spend its resources on a completely different Star Wars game.

Bruce
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