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Author Topic: Aion (Open Beta, Launch Day Info too!)  (Read 784147 times)
gryeyes
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Reply #2975 on: November 01, 2009, 11:51:47 AM

For what its worth I cant recall seeing a iskkrsks in their either. But thats not because they cant (players do), its because they earn less kinah doing so. But if one was botting for a reason other than Kinah generation it changes everything.

Quote
I think the long-term economy is pretty much level 50's making things for level 50's.

I was under the impression that higher tier abyss gear/instances out shined crafted stuff at the "end". And since that stuff is just a factor of grinding the AP or grinding the trivial instances why craft? But this still entirely locks out any newer players or people who put off crafting until they have the financial means to do so, without the aid of a bot/RMT fueled market. Besides the recipes that proc great gear for higher level ranges that use lower level stuff.
tmp
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Reply #2976 on: November 01, 2009, 12:07:53 PM

I was under the impression that higher tier abyss gear/instances out shined crafted stuff at the "end". And since that stuff is just a factor of grinding the AP or grinding the trivial instances why craft?
Looking through item database it seems that crafted items have a level or so worth of advantage on the basic stats over the mob drops and the Abyss items. The Abyss items in comparison can have more customization slots and offer advantage when fighting other players, but that's not so useful bonus for everyone. The mob drops are if i understand it right on extremely low drop rates, and the mobs which do drop items more regularly are heavily contested. So overall crafting is still a source of viable gear, plus there's also the potion/food production.

And well, if the crafting wasn't viable then that leaves very little "economy" to speak of..?

Quote
But this still entirely locks out any newer players or people who put off crafting until they have the financial means to do so, without the aid of a bot/RMT fueled market.
I think this is where the work orders come into the picture -- a player can level their crafting all way to mastery without leaving the faction capital, purely through materials they receive from quest giver and purchase from the vendor.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2009, 12:11:25 PM by tmp »
Ralence
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Reply #2977 on: November 01, 2009, 12:21:20 PM

Falconeer, I'm not trying to pick on you here, but given that you related to my experience in Lineage 2, does it not bother you that in Aion, no matter how hard you work, ultimately your enemy will be determined by which of two factions they've chosen?  

It does. That's why I prefer the Ultima Online, EVE, Shadowbane and Age of Conan PvP models over the Aion one. Never said Aion is PvP done right. It's RvR, which is not exactly my cup of tea. And it's not even RvR done perfectly, but it's ok to me.

Hopefully you don't mind me interjecting here, but I appreciate your (Falconeer) input on the PvP mechanics and gameplay, I just have one issue;  How do you do it so that it's not a total failure such as Darkfall or Shadowbane?  In true open world PvP, the UO model worked because there was no option, if you wanted to play an MMORPG at that time, your only real choice was an open world PvP model, which led to the "LOL MINER" culture in that game.  Once EQ showed up, and people had a choice, they wholeheartedly voted with their dollars that they didn't want open world PvP.

I don't see a situation where in the future people will choose that ever again.  People on PvE servers in WoW choose to Arena/BG, so it's at their discretion, and it seems like that's the(current at least) successful model for MMORPG's.  Let the PvE people play, and give them the "OPTION" of PvP in a controlled setting.

The issue with Shadowbane/Darkfall, and the open world PvP with city building aspect is, how to you provide the ability for the losing players to recoup?  Or the incentive to even try?  Eve does it (sort of) with the Empire space and non-PvP zones, but that's not really open world PvP.  It's WoW, with unlimited participant battlegrounds.  If you lose, you go back to farming cash/gear etc to be more competitive the next time.  It seems to me in these situations, the zerg tends to be the winner, and the little bands of PvP really don't ever occur, unless its to gank someone grinding exp/cash.

The other model, the RvR concept, just to me seems like fighting an unwinnable war against infinite players, and along with yourself, I'm not a fan of that either.

Truth be told, I loved the Planetside concept, where at least I felt like I was on equal footing with everyone else, and it was fun.  But I'm not sure there's a large enough demand for a subscription fee MMORTS, with the likes of CoD out there doing it for free.  The biggest issue is that a subscription based model seems to favor levels/gear/time spent in game, which is ruthless on anyone new trying to come into a game, and frustrating for anyone that "loses"

-Ralence
Threash
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Reply #2978 on: November 01, 2009, 01:05:54 PM

Falconeer, I'm not trying to pick on you here, but given that you related to my experience in Lineage 2, does it not bother you that in Aion, no matter how hard you work, ultimately your enemy will be determined by which of two factions they've chosen?  

It does. That's why I prefer the Ultima Online, EVE, Shadowbane and Age of Conan PvP models over the Aion one. Never said Aion is PvP done right. It's RvR, which is not exactly my cup of tea. And it's not even RvR done perfectly, but it's ok to me.

Hopefully you don't mind me interjecting here, but I appreciate your (Falconeer) input on the PvP mechanics and gameplay, I just have one issue;  How do you do it so that it's not a total failure such as Darkfall or Shadowbane?  In true open world PvP, the UO model worked because there was no option, if you wanted to play an MMORPG at that time, your only real choice was an open world PvP model, which led to the "LOL MINER" culture in that game.  Once EQ showed up, and people had a choice, they wholeheartedly voted with their dollars that they didn't want open world PvP.

I don't see a situation where in the future people will choose that ever again.  People on PvE servers in WoW choose to Arena/BG, so it's at their discretion, and it seems like that's the(current at least) successful model for MMORPG's.  Let the PvE people play, and give them the "OPTION" of PvP in a controlled setting.

The issue with Shadowbane/Darkfall, and the open world PvP with city building aspect is, how to you provide the ability for the losing players to recoup?  Or the incentive to even try?  Eve does it (sort of) with the Empire space and non-PvP zones, but that's not really open world PvP.  It's WoW, with unlimited participant battlegrounds.  If you lose, you go back to farming cash/gear etc to be more competitive the next time.  It seems to me in these situations, the zerg tends to be the winner, and the little bands of PvP really don't ever occur, unless its to gank someone grinding exp/cash.

The other model, the RvR concept, just to me seems like fighting an unwinnable war against infinite players, and along with yourself, I'm not a fan of that either.

Truth be told, I loved the Planetside concept, where at least I felt like I was on equal footing with everyone else, and it was fun.  But I'm not sure there's a large enough demand for a subscription fee MMORTS, with the likes of CoD out there doing it for free.  The biggest issue is that a subscription based model seems to favor levels/gear/time spent in game, which is ruthless on anyone new trying to come into a game, and frustrating for anyone that "loses"

-Ralence

Shadowbane and Darkfall didn't fail because of their pvp, in fact if you ask the people who played them that was basically the one and only thing either game did right.  They failed because they basically failed in every single other area.

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Kageh
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Reply #2979 on: November 01, 2009, 03:59:56 PM

Since we're derailing anyway, I might just as well join in.

I wouldn't lump pre-Trammel UO in there with the Diku PVP games though. In UO you could build a competitive PVP char in a couple days at most. Also, having been an ambitious UO player back then in 97-98 (hey, it was my first MMO!), I know that everyone who was serious about PVP was stacking replacement gear and consumables in their banks, to the extent of having their kits already packed in the case of losing their stuff. Both bone and standard plate were literally thrown away by everyone else, so you could have ample supplies of both.

So you had 1.) instant PVP-able characters and 2.) little risk of death loss if you weren't a poor PVEer caught farming stuff in Covetous. Yes, there might have been the occasional Vanquishing weapon at stake, but the pros were either having lots of them or not using them often for fear of loss.

You just have to ask yourself, what do you seek in PVP? Do you want the most even match-up against an opponent, a so-called battle of skill in the same way you would joust or - less martially - play chess against them? Within a set perimeter, using matched/normed equipment and with full consent for the fight? Or do you rather want some sort of role-playing and life-like experience with all the advancement stuff thrown in for good measure? I consider myself in the former category, and I came to the conclusion that I'd rather play TF2 or CS if I want to "PVP", than constantly try to battle some guy who starts the fight with double the amounts of my HP and MP and a weapon that does triple my damage. The deal that I'm making is that there is little persistence and attachement to my "avatars", but I don't mind that anymore. For that, the WOW arena servers were actually an interesting option for me. I just didn't feel like paying money for them.

 
caladein
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Reply #2980 on: November 01, 2009, 08:17:17 PM

Well like i said, i've spent nearly all of my time in the abyss and i've never ran into one.  While it might be theoretically possible it just seems highly unlikely that it would be worth it because of the very high chance that you will be found and killed.

Lineage II's economy and intra-guild warfare (especially for those with castles to maintain) revolved in many ways on bot/farmer protection and hiring.  That's mitigated in Aion because the warfare isn't so much between guilds as pre-determined sides but I wouldn't be shocked that killing the "wrong" bot would get you put on multiple KOS lists if not actively sought after.

"Point being, they can't make everyone happy, so I hope they pick me." -Ingmar
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Threash
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Reply #2981 on: November 01, 2009, 11:19:59 PM

Well like i said, i've spent nearly all of my time in the abyss and i've never ran into one.  While it might be theoretically possible it just seems highly unlikely that it would be worth it because of the very high chance that you will be found and killed.

Lineage II's economy and intra-guild warfare (especially for those with castles to maintain) revolved in many ways on bot/farmer protection and hiring.  That's mitigated in Aion because the warfare isn't so much between guilds as pre-determined sides but I wouldn't be shocked that killing the "wrong" bot would get you put on multiple KOS lists if not actively sought after.

That wouldn't really change anything in this game, i have yet to run into anyone of the enemy faction that didn't trigger a fight yet.

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gryeyes
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Reply #2982 on: November 02, 2009, 02:11:34 AM

Gotta use your personal store to communicate. I don't think botting for Kinah is really useful for higher level characters. They can generate such huge sums of money playing normally. Anyone on Israphel want some Kinah/random trash? Gave most of it away but have a few mil for a lowbie that wants.
nurtsi
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Reply #2983 on: November 02, 2009, 04:28:05 AM

Just to rail this a bit.

I finally got into abyss and I'm liking it so far. It reminds me a bit of EVE for some reason. Trying to grind away in some hidden spot, keeping an eye on the "pvp radar" and running from all the rangers and sorcs ganking my poor gladiator. Rangers in particular are like freaking recon ship that just pop out of stealth and root and kill you. When you get bored with the grind, just gather up a small party and go hunt some birds. So far it has been practically only small group skirmishes.

I really dig the possibilities that flying gives you. I can soar the sky and see a group of Elyos duke it out with some Asmos below. I drop down like a dive bomber and just before I hit the ground I spread my wings and land in the back of the Elyos and hit them with my AOEs. Cool stuff.

I'm only lvl 28 though, so the grind hasn't really hit that hard yet.
angry.bob
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Reply #2984 on: November 02, 2009, 07:06:51 AM

How is the panty based content? I'm burnt out on WoW again and thought it would be nice to play a game with really great graphics coupled with hot women in lingerie. Is it like other Korean games where everyone looks pretty much the same, or are you able to wear a variety of panties and tiny boob slings depending on your mood?

As far as game play I don't really care outside of it affecting my ability to buy/acquire/unlock new and different underwear.

Wovon man nicht sprechen kann, darüber muß man schweigen.
gryeyes
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Reply #2985 on: November 02, 2009, 07:28:30 AM

Female gear is all of the panty variety. The sorc female daeva set is a pink maid uniform for example.
Koyasha
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Reply #2986 on: November 02, 2009, 08:16:41 AM

Asmodian gear, at least, tends to be reasonably sexy, but there doesn't seem to be any gear in the game as stripperific as Lineage II, whether Asmo or Elyos.  Cloth gear seems the most underwear-like, but leather, plate, and chain all have at least some outfits that are particularly slutty.  There's also a pretty reasonable supply of non-slutty gear, so not everyone looks the same.  Once you hit 30 you can use armor reshaping to make whatever gear you have look like whatever other gear you have.

Elyos, I've noticed, have much less sexy gear.  Unfortunately a lot of it, particularly the Abyss gear, also looks pretty bad in general (in my opinion) which keeps me from playing any Elyos at all, basically (since Abyss gear can't be reshaped).

-Do you honestly think that we believe ourselves evil? My friend, we seek only good. It's just that our definitions don't quite match.-
Ailanreanter, Arcanaloth
Threash
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Reply #2987 on: November 02, 2009, 08:31:51 AM

I reshaped my level 30 blue abyss pants, it wouldn't let me dye them before reshaping though.

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Shatter
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Reply #2988 on: November 02, 2009, 08:46:27 AM

My chain chest piece gives Katie Price's tops competition
Koyasha
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Reply #2989 on: November 02, 2009, 09:59:55 AM

Seriously?  It can be reshaped?  Weird.  I tried it in beta once, and it didn't work, and then some other people said they tried it in live and it didn't work.  Really glad to hear it can be done after all.

-Do you honestly think that we believe ourselves evil? My friend, we seek only good. It's just that our definitions don't quite match.-
Ailanreanter, Arcanaloth
Threash
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Reply #2990 on: November 02, 2009, 11:14:27 AM

Yeah i found a rare spawn npc that sold asmodian looking armor to elyos and remodeled my entire outfit which included a couple pieces of abyss pvp gear. 

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Xurtan
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Reply #2991 on: November 02, 2009, 11:58:35 AM

The lv 50 Asmodian gear that Elyos can buy for remodeling is fairly decent, so is the lv 30 set. As a rule, a lot of the Elyos gear is sort of meh. The high level Abyss gear makes you look like a rock/crystal golem, and when you enter combat you sprout crystals. Its pretty  ACK!

Asmodian Gear - Elyos Remodel
01101010
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Reply #2992 on: November 02, 2009, 01:17:18 PM


That's a horrible link...took all of five seconds to notice the female cosplayers and click over - which lead to me completely forgetting wtf you linked in the first place.  Oh ho ho ho. Reallllly?

Does any one know where the love of God goes...When the waves turn the minutes to hours? -G. Lightfoot
Hoax
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Reply #2993 on: November 02, 2009, 03:00:40 PM

How is the panty based content? I'm burnt out on WoW again and thought it would be nice to play a game with really great graphics coupled with hot women in lingerie. Is it like other Korean games where everyone looks pretty much the same, or are you able to wear a variety of panties and tiny boob slings depending on your mood?

As far as game play I don't really care outside of it affecting my ability to buy/acquire/unlock new and different underwear.

 Heart You are one of my favorite posters for so many reasons.

A nation consists of its laws. A nation does not consist of its situation at a given time. If an individual's morals are situational, then that individual is without morals. If a nation's laws are situational, that nation has no laws, and soon isn't a nation.
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Threash
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Reply #2994 on: November 04, 2009, 01:41:11 PM

What dungeon is that with the vendor for the lvl 50 armor from the other side?

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Xurtan
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Reply #2995 on: November 04, 2009, 04:48:59 PM

The one in the picture is Theo Labs. Lv 47-48+ dungeon with lv 50 mobs. If you meant what dungeon has the Elyos armor for Asmodians, I have no idea.
Falconeer
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Reply #2996 on: November 12, 2009, 08:14:29 AM

From a meaningless IGN interview with the new community manager.

Quote
IGNPC: The hottest topic on all Aion forums seems to be about the "grind" to level 50. We know that there's an experience boost patch coming soon that will adjust the XP rewards for quests as well as monster kills but are there any plans of adding more quests as well?

Andrew Beegle: It's important to note that the 1.5.1 patch will be adjusting XP rewards for a number of quests, but we're still reevaluating the experience gain for individual monster kills. We've spent a great deal of time analyzing the player-submitted feedback and the data that we've pulled from our internal servers to plan future changes. I'd like to discuss all our plans to potentially alter XP gain, but we need to come to a decision as a team first.

As for adding additional quests that's something we're still evaluating internally. We recognize that there are level ranges that can be problematic and consequently frustrating for some players. Our goal is to address those concerns without making the game too easy.

Now, seriously, I'd pay to be at the internal meeting when they discuss this. I really, really want to listen why it's taking so long for that to happen, why it didn't happen in beta, and if anyone is against it, I'd love to hear his/her reason, especially when facing official revenues and churn data.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2009, 08:17:42 AM by Falconeer »

Nebu
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Reply #2997 on: November 12, 2009, 08:18:17 AM

Quote
Our goal is to address those concerns without making the game too easy.

Because "Takes Longer" = "Harder"    ACK!

Talk about missing the whole point. 


"Always do what is right. It will gratify half of mankind and astound the other."

-  Mark Twain
Falconeer
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Reply #2998 on: November 12, 2009, 08:19:40 AM

Exactly Nebu. That line almost made me spit my drink on the monitor.

Falconeer
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Reply #2999 on: November 12, 2009, 08:20:49 AM

Quote
IGNPC: The other hot topic these days is the rampant botting that seems to be taking place in the game. You guys mentioned in your October community address that there is a special team dedicated to hunting down and eliminating these bots. I think the question in people's minds is, why do we still see a great number of the same bots we've been seeing every day, and what can we do to help?

Andrew Beegle: The special division of our customer service team that is dedicated to hunting down bots has made some solid progress. We're still adding staff to that team, so progress on the bot front will continue and build over time. The unfortunate truth is that even though we're banning thousands of accounts every day, the amount of new accounts being created with botting in mind does a great job of making it seem that we're not banning anyone. However, that is not the reality.

You asked about how players can help. The biggest reason why RMT exists is because players are still buying online currency to advance their gameplay. I can't stress enough how even doing this once can lead to an increase in the amount of evident gold farming. The quickest way to solve the bot problem is to take away the reason the botters do it: to make money.

Spread the word. Buying Kinah online hurts the Aion community and the game experience overall.

Shatter
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Reply #3000 on: November 12, 2009, 08:55:05 AM

Quote
IGNPC: The other hot topic these days is the rampant botting that seems to be taking place in the game. You guys mentioned in your October community address that there is a special team dedicated to hunting down and eliminating these bots. I think the question in people's minds is, why do we still see a great number of the same bots we've been seeing every day, and what can we do to help?

Andrew Beegle: The special division of our customer service team that is dedicated to hunting down bots has made some solid progress. We're still adding staff to that team, so progress on the bot front will continue and build over time. The unfortunate truth is that even though we're banning thousands of accounts every day, the amount of new accounts being created with botting in mind does a great job of making it seem that we're not banning anyone. However, that is not the reality.

You asked about how players can help. The biggest reason why RMT exists is because players are still buying online currency to advance their gameplay. I can't stress enough how even doing this once can lead to an increase in the amount of evident gold farming. The quickest way to solve the bot problem is to take away the reason the botters do it: to make money.

Spread the word. Buying Kinah online hurts the Aion community and the game experience overall.

Aion is putting food on the gold sellers plates via their in-game financial structure.  Almost every aspect of Aion has huge costs all the way from wings to crafting to Soul healing to gear to spells to stigmas, etc etc.  Not to mention since there are sooooooo many bots in the game these companies are making huge chunks of Kinah which is now down to about $7 for 1 million.  Players fault players fault!
Falconeer
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Reply #3001 on: November 12, 2009, 09:17:12 AM

It's their fault for not banning fast enough, for not being able to prevent unattended farming, for not thinking about it beforehand, for not developing antibot measures of some sort. For not providing players the tools to help them keep the game clean (Example: I keep reporting as bots, with the /reportautohunt function,  all the players with a playerstore in a major hub openly selling gold and with gold-related signs up. But guess what? You can't use it in a city, where they are for obvious population reasons, as the system thinks you are trying to abuse the tool since they couldn't be "hunting" in a city!)

But if you buy "stolen goods" cause they are cheaper than legal ones, then it's your fault for a number of reason you should know, including but not only financing the stealing business, and inflating the economy.

They should take responsibility, so should some players. Exactly those he's talkng to (so not me and you, Shatter).

gryeyes
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Reply #3002 on: November 12, 2009, 03:30:39 PM

/reportautohunt isn't even functional, it does nothing (unless something has changed). Which is probably a good thing because its the most grief prone automated feature Ive ever witnessed in a game. If it worked you could get 10 friends or so and make a character gain no exp or drops for a unknown handful of hours, that must be worked off in game. Even if it did work it would do nothing to a character in a city.
Falconeer
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Reply #3003 on: November 12, 2009, 06:18:44 PM

It works, as in it warns you that you spent 1 out of your 10 daily reports. I guess it adds the reported person's name to a grey-list. It gives a feedback when you use it, but of course doesn't insta-ban the character you /reported.

Chimpy
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Reply #3004 on: November 12, 2009, 07:06:01 PM


Aion is putting food on the gold sellers plates via their in-game financial structure.  Almost every aspect of Aion has huge costs all the way from wings to crafting to Soul healing to gear to spells to stigmas, etc etc.  Not to mention since there are sooooooo many bots in the game these companies are making huge chunks of Kinah which is now down to about $7 for 1 million.  Players fault players fault!

It is down to $3 per million kinah today on Vaizel.


'Reality' is the only word in the language that should always be used in quotes.
gryeyes
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Reply #3005 on: November 12, 2009, 07:25:45 PM

It works, as in it warns you that you spent 1 out of your 10 daily reports. I guess it adds the reported person's name to a grey-list. It gives a feedback when you use it, but of course doesn't insta-ban the character you /reported.

There is a command to detect infraction level, infractions are automated if it was working. The entire system functions automatically, infractions are automatically attributed to the player, the penalty level has like 5 stages. You work off infractions by being logged in. I cant recall the command to check status but I tested it extensively. No infractions are applied to a player and if it logs reports there are probably 100,000's of thousands per server.  But at no stage is someone banned. And given the prolonged nature of the infractions and how they can be "worked off" I don't think its intended to be used as such.

I mean technically the petition system is functional also, except it doesn't work.
01101010
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Reply #3006 on: November 12, 2009, 07:25:59 PM


It is down to $3 per million kinah today on Vaizel.


So either... no one is actually buying kinah in the game OR the pop is precipitously dropping which is negating the clientele (gold farming bots are suddenly outweighing the players)?  why so serious?  

Does any one know where the love of God goes...When the waves turn the minutes to hours? -G. Lightfoot
DLRiley
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Reply #3007 on: November 12, 2009, 07:46:28 PM


Shadowbane and Darkfall didn't fail because of their pvp, in fact if you ask the people who played them that was basically the one and only thing either game did right.  They failed because they basically failed in every single other area.

Besides the people who find the idea of those games utter failure, the fact is the hard core pvp crowd is going to ask for hardcore pvp and hardcore pvp only until they get their ass raped repeadetly when they lose the arms race. Those games bleed players after the dust settled, due to the fact that the dust settled. Especially darkfall which experienced a noise dive in hardcore mouth breathers willing to get ass raped by the largest mega-guild in the game.  The other areas failing just drives a ironic point home that their ideal game is bullshit on clouds.
ghost
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Reply #3008 on: November 12, 2009, 08:06:36 PM

Every single "hardcore" PvP game devolves into a zergy gankfest.  That's why they suck.
DLRiley
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Reply #3009 on: November 12, 2009, 08:49:06 PM

But i don't think a lot of hardcore pvp players realize that is the ends to their means.
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