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Azazel
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Reply #70 on: April 05, 2008, 09:26:55 PM

Yep, there are definitely games I will not buy because of something like Starforce on it.

Hell, there's been a game I've been eying for about a year now at GS...but I won't buy it due to Starforce. Sucks.

At risk of repeating myself, as I've said essentially the same thing in many threads, but back when I was younger and broke I used to pirate heaps and heaps of stuff. Never got around to installing, let alone playing it, but hey.

Now I am older and bitterer, but no longer broke, I buy a ton of stuff. I still never get around to installing or playing much of it, and I have bought a lot of the stuff I had previously pirated and enjoyed. Pretty much for the reason of "feeling good".

However, anything with Starforce is on my no-buy list. Fuck that noise.




 

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Wasted
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Reply #71 on: April 06, 2008, 04:25:07 AM

Quote
Do 4X players pirate games less than RTS players, who in turn pirate games less than FPS players?

One type of game provides many hundreds of hours of gameplay whilst another is lucky to provide ten, and they both cost the same amount of money. Moral debate on piracy aside it isn't a surprise to see why 4x fans are more willing to pay for games in their genre.   
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Reply #72 on: April 06, 2008, 09:21:31 PM

Before you troll me, at least engage your brain. Theft occurs because you've copied a protected idea (the patented Porsche) and not paid a dime on it. Same logic applies to computer games.

Oh for the love of...

1) Suppose there's a way to create a molecular copy of something.
2) Suppose you have a garage, which to the outside world appears as a Schrödinger's Box.
3) Suppose you may or may have not copied your neighbor's Porsche in your garage.

Has a theft occurred?

The answer is that there is no answer until someone else peeks in the garage. Schrödinger's Box means that the only way to determine if a theft has occurred is to peek in to determine if a theft has occurred. Circular logic.

I reserve the right to reconsider what is and isn't piracy when magic super-advanced science gets to this point.

Until then, using quantum physics arguments to justify piracy just screams smokescreen.

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Reply #73 on: April 06, 2008, 09:23:22 PM

You want to reach the pirate? Don't treat him like a criminal, treat him like ANY OTHER POTENTIAL SALE. Treat "pirating" as "guerilla marketing" and make sure the product he gets is great. Even if HE doesn't buy, he will tell someone else and his sentence won't begin with "those cockscuckers."

I'm always a big fan of carrot and stick approaches. DRM is still needed, but you should be trying to convert those who might have pirated your application into paying customers, perhaps through extra patches that only work on legit copies.

Samwise
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Reply #74 on: April 06, 2008, 09:46:12 PM

I reserve the right to reconsider what is and isn't piracy when magic super-advanced science gets to this point.

Here's a real-world scenario that I think accomplishes the same goal: I go to the bookstore and take a book off the shelf that I have no intention of paying for.  After a few seconds I return it to the shelf and leave the store, returning the store, shelf, and book to the state they'd be in if I'd never been there.  Have I stolen anything?

"I have not actually recommended many games, and I'll go on the record here saying my track record is probably best in the industry." - schild
Nebu
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Reply #75 on: April 07, 2008, 02:20:57 AM

Here's a real-world scenario that I think accomplishes the same goal: I go to the bookstore and take a book off the shelf that I have no intention of paying for.  After a few seconds I return it to the shelf and leave the store, returning the store, shelf, and book to the state they'd be in if I'd never been there.  Have I stolen anything?

Are you comparing your memory to a hard drive or a CD?  Similarly we can open a discussion on plagiarism.   

"Always do what is right. It will gratify half of mankind and astound the other."

-  Mark Twain
Riggswolfe
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Reply #76 on: April 07, 2008, 08:51:35 AM

I reserve the right to reconsider what is and isn't piracy when magic super-advanced science gets to this point.

Here's a real-world scenario that I think accomplishes the same goal: I go to the bookstore and take a book off the shelf that I have no intention of paying for.  After a few seconds I return it to the shelf and leave the store, returning the store, shelf, and book to the state they'd be in if I'd never been there.  Have I stolen anything?

This isn't a good comparison. Here's one that works better.

You go to a bookstore, take a book off of the shelf, photocopy the entire thing then return it to the shelf and leave with your photocopy which you then begin passing out to interested people. Have you stolen anything?

"We live in a country, where John Lennon takes six bullets in the chest, Yoko Ono was standing right next to him and not one fucking bullet! Explain that to me! Explain that to me, God! Explain it to me, God!" - Denis Leary summing up my feelings about the nature of the universe.
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Reply #77 on: April 07, 2008, 12:03:53 PM

I reserve the right to reconsider what is and isn't piracy when magic super-advanced science gets to this point.

Here's a real-world scenario that I think accomplishes the same goal: I go to the bookstore and take a book off the shelf that I have no intention of paying for.  After a few seconds I return it to the shelf and leave the store, returning the store, shelf, and book to the state they'd be in if I'd never been there.  Have I stolen anything?

This isn't a good comparison. Here's one that works better.

You go to a bookstore, take a book off of the shelf, photocopy the entire thing then return it to the shelf and leave with your photocopy which you then begin passing out to interested people. Have you stolen anything?

No, that's not a fair comparison.

Bits are just bits.

To photocopy an entire book, requires resource expenditure of equal or greater value than the existing book — cost in toner, paper (at cost greater than the book itself in most instances)…

And even at $.25 a page, would not be feasible to undertake…

But bits can be copied freely, at minimal cost (the cost of a data connection, of which capacity is mostly, not utilized to full capacity).

"Should the batman kill Joker because it would save more lives?" is a fundamentally different question from "should the batman have a bunch of machineguns that go BATBATBATBATBAT because its totally cool?". ~Goumindong
Samwise
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Reply #78 on: April 07, 2008, 12:22:32 PM

I take it everyone's answer to the previous question was "no".

Suppose I download a copyrighted MP3.  I then delete it from my hard drive immediately, zero the bits, everything.  I don't even listen to it first.  But I do not buy the copyrighted work.  Am I a pirate?
« Last Edit: April 07, 2008, 12:24:05 PM by Samwise »

"I have not actually recommended many games, and I'll go on the record here saying my track record is probably best in the industry." - schild
Ratman_tf
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Reply #79 on: April 07, 2008, 12:36:41 PM

Jesus guys, start cussing each other out or something. This thread's gone to the corner of Pedantic Ave, and Analogy Way.



 "What I'm saying is you should make friends with a few catasses, they smell funny but they're very helpful."
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Reply #80 on: April 07, 2008, 01:26:24 PM

We originally had a nice funny analogy that used quantum physics, but that wasn't serious enough or something.

"I have not actually recommended many games, and I'll go on the record here saying my track record is probably best in the industry." - schild
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Reply #81 on: April 07, 2008, 01:43:14 PM

Look here, fuckers: piracy is wrong. Even if the game devs are drooling morons, they at least prodiuced a game. Vote with your dollars. Bittorrent isn't a vote.

Why am I homeless?  Why do all you motherfuckers need homes is the real question.
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Reply #82 on: April 07, 2008, 03:51:37 PM

Barlow: Mayor Quimby, you're well-known, sir, for your lenient stance on crime.  But suppose for a second that your house was ransacked by thugs, your family tied up in the basement with socks in their mouths, you try to open the door but there's too much blood on the knob…

Quimby: What is your question?

Barlow: My question is about the budget, sir.

"Should the batman kill Joker because it would save more lives?" is a fundamentally different question from "should the batman have a bunch of machineguns that go BATBATBATBATBAT because its totally cool?". ~Goumindong
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Reply #83 on: April 07, 2008, 07:34:33 PM

I take it everyone's answer to the previous question was "no".

Suppose I download a copyrighted MP3.  I then delete it from my hard drive immediately, zero the bits, everything.  I don't even listen to it first.  But I do not buy the copyrighted work.  Am I a pirate?

No, because you didn't listen to it.

If you'd listened to the song, enjoyed it, maybe even danced around a little, then you would have been a pirate. Fun and piracy go hand in hand.

At this point in time, I'm wondering how many analogies this thread can torture to death.

Samwise
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Reply #84 on: April 07, 2008, 07:40:01 PM

I take it everyone's answer to the previous question was "no".

Suppose I download a copyrighted MP3.  I then delete it from my hard drive immediately, zero the bits, everything.  I don't even listen to it first.  But I do not buy the copyrighted work.  Am I a pirate?

No, because you didn't listen to it.

If you'd listened to the song, enjoyed it, maybe even danced around a little, then you would have been a pirate. Fun and piracy go hand in hand.

Stupid as it sounds that enjoyment/use of the copyrighted work without paying for it is the thing that's "wrong", doesn't that seem like a more defensible position than the argument that simply transferring the bits constitutes theft?

Of course, once you go there, why is it legal for me to go over to a friend's house and dance around to his copy of the CD?  I didn't pay for that privilege either.

The thing I find interesting/troubling about the piracy issue is that most people agree that piracy is in theory a bad thing but nobody seems able to define it in a way that is non-ludicrous,  doesn't boil down to "I know it when I see it," and still covers any significant portion of what we consider "piracy" in this country.

"I have not actually recommended many games, and I'll go on the record here saying my track record is probably best in the industry." - schild
Ratman_tf
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Reply #85 on: April 07, 2008, 08:43:23 PM

If you'd listened to the song, enjoyed it, maybe even danced around a little, then you would have been a pirate. Fun and piracy go hand in hand.



Quote
At this point in time, I'm wondering how many analogies this thread can torture to death.




 "What I'm saying is you should make friends with a few catasses, they smell funny but they're very helpful."
-Calantus makes the best of a smelly situation.
Wasted
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Reply #86 on: April 08, 2008, 02:08:35 AM


The thing I find interesting/troubling about the piracy issue is that most people agree that piracy is in theory a bad thing but nobody seems able to define it in a way that is non-ludicrous,  doesn't boil down to "I know it when I see it," and still covers any significant portion of what we consider "piracy" in this country.

Piracy, as it used to be defined was the act of making a forgery/copy and selling that as if it was the real thing.  Whether file sharing is piracy is still debated and has far from a 'most people agree' consensus.  Organisations like the RIAA have paid lots of money to try to change the definition, and criminalise the basic human characterisation of sharing.
Xerapis
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Reply #87 on: April 08, 2008, 02:14:11 AM

And ya know, they could have stopped about 90% of all piracy if they had just called it faggotry instead.

I mean, everyone wants to be a pirate.

..I want to see gamma rays. I want to hear x-rays. I want to...smell dark matter...and feel the solar wind of a supernova flowing over me...
Roberik Manders
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Reply #88 on: April 08, 2008, 06:46:23 AM

The Oxford English Dictionary defines piracy as;

noun 1 the practice of attacking and robbing ships at sea. 2 the unauthorized use or reproduction of another’s work.

So, if you're pirating a PC game then the one who copies it from the disc and makes it available is a pirate. Likewise, the one who downloads it and plays it without paying the creator of the game is a pirate. If you download it but don't play it then you havn't used it, so according to this definition you haven't actually done anything wrong.


There was another interesting definition on Google; The stealing of food (or nesting material) from one bird by another. See "kleptoparasitism." Parent martins are known to steal nesting material from other martins (both in the air and out of their nesting compartments).

Don't steal twigs from nests, it's piracy.

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Nebu
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Reply #89 on: April 08, 2008, 09:16:57 AM

I thought this was fitting given the topic:

Quote
Only in America
 
Students at the University of Texas drew up an “honor code,” in which they pledged not to cheat or commit plagiarism, by copying an honor code in effect at Brigham Young University, which itself was copied from one at Clemson University. The incident illustrates a disturbing trend among students in the age of Google and Wikipedia, said Daniel Wueste, director of Clemson’s Rutland Center for Ethics. “Young people today have a different understanding of what in the way of ideas and words is property that can be taken without authorization.”

"Always do what is right. It will gratify half of mankind and astound the other."

-  Mark Twain
stu
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Reply #90 on: April 08, 2008, 10:39:30 AM

At least they didn't get it from sparknotes!

Dear Diary,
Jackpot!
Samwise
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Reply #91 on: April 08, 2008, 12:27:28 PM

2 the unauthorized use or reproduction of another’s work.

So, if you're pirating a PC game then the one who copies it from the disc and makes it available is a pirate. Likewise, the one who downloads it and plays it without paying the creator of the game is a pirate. If you download it but don't play it then you havn't used it, so according to this definition you haven't actually done anything wrong.

You may want to look up the definition of "or" in that there dictionary.  (Hint: it's different from "and"!)

Under that definition, going over to a friend's house and playing a game he owns or listening to a CD he owns is also piracy, since you have not been granted authorization (via purchase) to use that work.

If purchasing a copy of the work gave him the right to authorize its use by others, then file-sharing wouldn't be an issue.

Note also that the above definition prohibits making backup copies of purchased works for personal use.  In short, I question the OED's legitimacy as a legal reference.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2008, 12:32:51 PM by Samwise »

"I have not actually recommended many games, and I'll go on the record here saying my track record is probably best in the industry." - schild
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Reply #92 on: April 08, 2008, 08:26:23 PM

The thing I find interesting/troubling about the pornography issue is that most people agree that pornography is in theory a bad thing but nobody seems able to define it in a way that is non-ludicrous,  doesn't boil down to "I know it when I see it," and still covers any significant portion of what we consider "pornography" in this country.

 awesome, for real

If you're going to argue definitions of common words, I reserve the right to be a dick about it.  awesome, for real

Slightly more realistically, purchase should give the rights to ownership. It's only the large software companies / industry rights groups who want the money you pay on their product to be some kind of lease / hire system.

Samwise
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Reply #93 on: April 08, 2008, 08:36:54 PM

The thing I find interesting/troubling about the pornography issue is that most people agree that pornography is in theory a bad thing but nobody seems able to define it in a way that is non-ludicrous,  doesn't boil down to "I know it when I see it," and still covers any significant portion of what we consider "pornography" in this country.

 awesome, for real

I agree with you completely -- I used the phrase "I know it when I see it" for a reason.  That is indeed another issue where it's hard to find two people with the same definition of the word, and (IMO) a dangerous thing to try to legislate against for that reason.

purchase should give the rights to ownership.

You can't think that and make any sort of argument against piracy under ANY definition.  If by purchasing a copy of a work I "own" it I can do whatever I damn well please with it, including making copies, slapping my name on them, and reselling them.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2008, 08:40:37 PM by Samwise »

"I have not actually recommended many games, and I'll go on the record here saying my track record is probably best in the industry." - schild
Margalis
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Reply #94 on: April 09, 2008, 02:23:58 AM

I used to have a pirated copy of 3D Studio Max. There was an exactly zero percent chance I was going to pay for it, it was pirated copy or nothing. Who exactly lost money from that?

The bookstore analogy is an interesting one. Modern bookstores encourage customers to grab a coffee, sit down and "steal" their content. In the end it sells books and coffee, whereas being hardasses sells neither. Maybe the gaming industry could learn from that.

vampirehipi23: I would enjoy a book written by a monkey and turned into a movie rather than this.
Nebu
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Reply #95 on: April 09, 2008, 09:08:17 AM

I used to have a pirated copy of 3D Studio Max. There was an exactly zero percent chance I was going to pay for it, it was pirated copy or nothing. Who exactly lost money from that?

A company that could have produced a less expensive version of 3D Studio Max with very similar functionality. 

I say this because you obviously NEEDED the functionality provided by the software, you just didn't think it was worth the cost of this functionality.  If there was absolutely no way to obtain this function without a purchase, you would have had to choose between a) not doing what you wanted to do or b) searching for a less expensive alternative.  Think about it like a car.  Sure, you want to drive a mercedes... but you could only afford a Honda.

"Always do what is right. It will gratify half of mankind and astound the other."

-  Mark Twain
Samwise
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Reply #96 on: April 09, 2008, 09:36:50 AM

Modern bookstores encourage customers to grab a coffee, sit down and "steal" their content.

Technically, it's not the bookstores' content, it's the publishers' (or authors').  The bookstores are the real thieves by facilitating the unauthorized use of other peoples' content.

Don't even get me started on those goddamn "libraries".

"I have not actually recommended many games, and I'll go on the record here saying my track record is probably best in the industry." - schild
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Reply #97 on: April 09, 2008, 10:32:43 AM

Recent study cited that 60% of Photoshop users were using a pirated (unlicensed) copy. But that estimate was derided by many as way too low, that the mark is probably as high as 90%. If you own a business, you're going to license the software but even then, Adobe has made it a nasty deal, especially post-Macromedia merge where they've incorporated their DRM technology which makes installing and upgrading legitimate copies nightmarish.

I lost count of all the folks who would argue against music DLs (even on these very forums), but see nothing wrong about using unlicensed copies of Photoshop, and they justify it with weak arguments like: (a) Programmers make more than musicians, (b) Adobe PS is prohibitively expensive, (c) software is a different matter than music, etc.…

There are plenty of lower cost and/or free alternatives to Adobe PS, it's just that people get used to the UI in Photoshop and want to train on the same stuff the pros use (no problem with that strategy, but using unlicensed copy is just as unethical as downloading what could easily be purchased). And unless you're in need of high quality CMYK print output, the other products would serve well, and accomplish same task, albeit after enduring a learning curve on the software (Gimp, Pixelmator, PSP, etc.…).

So by pirating a copy of PS (or Maya or Illustrator or $HighEndSoftware) you are foregoing a purchase in a more competitively priced product.

Paradoxically, piracy enabled software genre leaders to entrench their market dominance — it happened in the 90s with Windows, it happens today with Photoshop and Maya, where they've become giant sellers because they are also pirated to an extensive degree…

"Should the batman kill Joker because it would save more lives?" is a fundamentally different question from "should the batman have a bunch of machineguns that go BATBATBATBATBAT because its totally cool?". ~Goumindong
Margalis
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Reply #98 on: April 09, 2008, 11:07:01 AM

A company that could have produced a less expensive version of 3D Studio Max with very similar functionality. 

I say this because you obviously NEEDED the functionality provided by the software, you just didn't think it was worth the cost of this functionality.  If there was absolutely no way to obtain this function without a purchase, you would have had to choose between a) not doing what you wanted to do or b) searching for a less expensive alternative.  Think about it like a car.  Sure, you want to drive a mercedes... but you could only afford a Honda.

Wrong. I didn't NEED it, I wanted it. And I wanted something that would save in the 3DStudio file format and was able to produce all the features that would get saved into a 3DStudio file, so a cheaper knockoff was out of the question.

The answer, of course, is that nobody lost any money on it at all.

vampirehipi23: I would enjoy a book written by a monkey and turned into a movie rather than this.
Samwise
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Reply #99 on: April 09, 2008, 12:06:26 PM

Paradoxically, piracy enabled software genre leaders to entrench their market dominance — it happened in the 90s with Windows, it happens today with Photoshop and Maya, where they've become giant sellers because they are also pirated to an extensive degree…

It's not in any way paradoxical.  Why do you think Adobe turns a blind eye to most of that piracy?  A large number of Photoshop pirates move on to use Photoshop in business settings where they'll have to buy legit copies.  Adobe gets the money in the end either way, so why spend their time chasing away future customers?

"I have not actually recommended many games, and I'll go on the record here saying my track record is probably best in the industry." - schild
Nebu
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Reply #100 on: April 09, 2008, 12:09:41 PM

Wrong. I didn't NEED it, I wanted it. And I wanted something that would save in the 3DStudio file format and was able to produce all the features that would get saved into a 3DStudio file, so a cheaper knockoff was out of the question.

The answer, of course, is that nobody lost any money on it at all.

Missing the point entirely.  Were 3D Studio ONLY available by a purchased copy, you would have four choices:

1) Not do your project at all

2) Find another piece of software to do the job.

3) Buy 3D Studio

4) Do your project on the system of someone that owned a copy. 

This was my point.  Options 2 and 3 have the most economic impact.  Option 4 may or may not have economic impact.   

"Always do what is right. It will gratify half of mankind and astound the other."

-  Mark Twain
Samwise
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Reply #101 on: April 09, 2008, 12:12:02 PM

2a) freeware?

"I have not actually recommended many games, and I'll go on the record here saying my track record is probably best in the industry." - schild
Nebu
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Reply #102 on: April 09, 2008, 12:17:54 PM

2a) freeware?

Great suggestion.  I thought of this and it DOES have economic impact.  The developers of freeware/shareware can become a profit making entity with time and success.  It still retains impact, it's just less immediate.

"Always do what is right. It will gratify half of mankind and astound the other."

-  Mark Twain
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Reply #103 on: April 09, 2008, 12:30:49 PM

2a) freeware?

F/OSS software usage has a huge economic impact, even if just for applying pressure to commercial software entities that must compete.

The 20%+ of Firefox users (or whatever the mark is now, it is higher on tech oriented sites, and people who use Firefox over MSIE are generally much more tech savvy and more likely to be content creators, internet participants v. spectators, etc.…) triggered M$ to devote attention to improving MSIE.

"Should the batman kill Joker because it would save more lives?" is a fundamentally different question from "should the batman have a bunch of machineguns that go BATBATBATBATBAT because its totally cool?". ~Goumindong
Sairon
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Reply #104 on: April 09, 2008, 06:05:48 PM

Since nobody pretty much cares about the act of copying I think most of the discussion is pretty irrelevant, what's relevant is if pirating reduces sales. And to that I think it does short term, but long term it increases. Although extreme I think it's like if dope was free, then a hell of a lot more people would probably get addicted. When I was in high school / elementary piracy was the main way to get games, how would it be possible to pick up gaming as a main hobby when you can afford like 5 games a year and perhaps a few on your birthday/christmas?
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