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Author Topic: Does it come down to trust?  (Read 127590 times)
Samwise
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Reply #105 on: April 09, 2008, 06:36:00 PM

True dat.  If I hadn't pirated a few games as a kid it's much less likely that I'd be spending thousands of dollars a year on PC gaming now.

"I have not actually recommended many games, and I'll go on the record here saying my track record is probably best in the industry." - schild
Rasix
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Reply #106 on: April 09, 2008, 06:39:26 PM

Piracy... for the children!   swamp poop

-Rasix
Samwise
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Reply #107 on: April 09, 2008, 06:42:53 PM

Or not.  Think what productive members of society we'd all be if we'd stuck to stickball as kids, or whatever it is you do outside in that fresh air stuff.

"I have not actually recommended many games, and I'll go on the record here saying my track record is probably best in the industry." - schild
Rasix
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Reply #108 on: April 09, 2008, 06:49:43 PM

Or not.  Think what productive members of society we'd all be if we'd stuck to stickball as kids, or whatever it is you do outside in that fresh air stuff.

Speak for yourself.  I didn't turn into a shut-in until college.  I guess that's the benefit of having jock friends that didn't have computers and only knew of their use in looking at pictures of scantily clad women. 

I long for the days when I was in that good of shape.

I guess I'll get back to letting everyone make excuses for stealing shit.   Get off my lawn!

-Rasix
Samwise
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Reply #109 on: April 09, 2008, 08:15:31 PM

I still want to know when we're going to do something about those damned libraries.

"I have not actually recommended many games, and I'll go on the record here saying my track record is probably best in the industry." - schild
bhodi
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Reply #110 on: April 09, 2008, 09:56:16 PM

I still want to know when we're going to do something about those damned libraries.
I thought our government was taking care of that?
Margalis
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Reply #111 on: April 09, 2008, 10:34:25 PM

Quote
I thought our government was taking care of that?

It is, but it's doing it the long way: producing masses of idiots who can't read.

vampirehipi23: I would enjoy a book written by a monkey and turned into a movie rather than this.
UnSub
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Reply #112 on: April 13, 2008, 07:48:33 AM

I still want to know when we're going to do something about those damned libraries.

It's an interesting point.

One issue here is that publishing a book can still make you money for decades after it first appears. Libraries or not, having a book available can help see sales continue.

Publishing a game, as the industry is structured, probably sees the vast majority of them bring in any revenue for only a few months. Then every three years or so, all the 'old' games are no longer readable for people who buy the newer platforms. It's like if every three years, society started using a new language that made all previous books unreadable unless you'd been around to learn it.

Perhaps the secret to removing the issue of piracy is to figure out how library methodologies can be used within the game industry (more than just 'lending things out', obviously).

Samwise
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Reply #113 on: April 13, 2008, 11:00:53 AM

One issue here is that publishing a book can still make you money for decades after it first appears. Libraries or not, having a book available can help see sales continue.

Publishing a game, as the industry is structured, probably sees the vast majority of them bring in any revenue for only a few months. Then every three years or so, all the 'old' games are no longer readable for people who buy the newer platforms. It's like if every three years, society started using a new language that made all previous books unreadable unless you'd been around to learn it.

This is very true.  It's worth noting that a fairly common motivation for "pirating" games is the game no longer being readily available for purchase through legitimate channels.  I expect digital distribution to start making a dent in this, though, since "shelf space" is slowly ceasing to be an issue for selling old/niche games.

"I have not actually recommended many games, and I'll go on the record here saying my track record is probably best in the industry." - schild
Xilren's Twin
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Reply #114 on: April 15, 2008, 07:59:37 AM

I still want to know when we're going to do something about those damned libraries.

Ironically enough, the library in the town i grew up in actually lent out computer games as well as vhs tapes long before piracy became vogue.

To flip the discussion around, would you prefer that all pc games were free to download/play but they come with built in advertising (i.e the TV method - yes ignore tivo and the like for now)?  That's one way to change the playing field.

"..but I'm by no means normal." - Schild
HaemishM
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Reply #115 on: April 15, 2008, 10:41:19 AM

I no longer have much problem with games having built-in advertising. Fuck, I already have to sit through at least one goddamn Nvidia or ATI screen for every PC game I play on top of the assy credits screens. If the game is free, I'm much more inclined to not give a shit about ads in the game.

Of course, if it's $60 AND has ads, I get a bit pissy.

Velorath
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Reply #116 on: April 29, 2008, 04:47:39 PM

Crytek has jumped in on the "blame piracy" bandwagon, with Crytek Studios President Cevat Yerli announcing that they are no longer going to do PC exclusive games.

Quote
"We are suffering currently from the huge piracy that is encompassing Crysis. We seem to lead the charts in piracy by a large margin; a chart leading that is not desirable," Yerli said. "I believe that's the core problem of PC gaming, piracy. To the degree PC gamers that pirate games inherently destroy the platform. Similar games on consoles sell factors of 4 [to] 5 more. It was a big lesson for us and I believe we won't have PC exclusives as we did with Crysis in future. We are going to support PC, but not exclusive anymore."

What they don't mention is that a lot of people are probably pirating Crysis just to see if the damn game will actually run on their PC's.
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Reply #117 on: April 29, 2008, 05:16:08 PM

He sold over a million copies on something that required a beast of a machine.

What a pompous dick. I think I'm done buying Crytek games.
Miasma
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Reply #118 on: April 29, 2008, 05:56:48 PM

I bought crysis and think the game looked great, especially that script where the mountain is falling to pieces, but the game itself was so mediocre that I couldn't finish it, even with God mode cheating.
HaemishM
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Reply #119 on: April 30, 2008, 09:58:55 AM

Quote from: Idiotic Douchebag
"We are suffering currently from the huge piracy that is encompassing Crysis. We seem to lead the charts in piracy by a large margin; a chart leading that is not desirable," Yerli said. "I believe that's the core problem of PC gaming, piracy. To the degree PC gamers that pirate games inherently destroy the platform. Similar games on consoles sell factors of 4 [to] 5 more. It was a big lesson for us and I believe we won't have PC exclusives as we did with Crysis in future. We are going to support PC, but not exclusive anymore."

Yeah, no. What a fuckhead. Games on consoles sell better because gamers with consoles don't have to worry if their console will run the fucking game or not. They just buy the game, insert disc and if it doesn't work, they go get another copy. They don't fuck with drivers, they don't tweak settings, they just play.

Also, what schild says. He's bitching about piracy after selling better than 99% of the PC games out there. Fuck off.

Ratman_tf
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Reply #120 on: April 30, 2008, 09:05:57 PM

You fuckers just don't understand his pain! If those pirates had bought legitimate copies, they'd have more money!



 "What I'm saying is you should make friends with a few catasses, they smell funny but they're very helpful."
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Samwise
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Reply #121 on: April 30, 2008, 09:24:39 PM

Everyone go buy two copies of Crysis right now!  Because if you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem.

"I have not actually recommended many games, and I'll go on the record here saying my track record is probably best in the industry." - schild
Nebu
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Reply #122 on: May 01, 2008, 01:28:41 PM

Not to condone the act of being an asshole, but if the guy did the work and produced the product what's wrong with wanting to get paid for it?   Selling 1,000,000 copies doesn't mean than the next one doesn't have equal value. 

Some people go their entire lives hoping for a single moment of success.  You have to get the most from it. 

"Always do what is right. It will gratify half of mankind and astound the other."

-  Mark Twain
Samwise
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Reply #123 on: May 01, 2008, 02:51:27 PM

Not to condone the act of being an asshole, but if the guy did the work and produced the product what's wrong with wanting to get paid for it?

I have the same issue I have with all statements of this type -- the assumption that each alleged act of piracy (how do they come up with these counts, anyway?) is equivalent to a lost sale, or that it causes damage above and beyond the theoretical lost sale.

Nothing wrong with wanting to get paid for one's work, but getting paid more than most and then bitching and then whining that it wasn't enough because your game is obviously that much better than everyone else's, as demonstrated by your alleged piracy statistics, is obnoxious.  Especially when it's a shitty game that I wouldn't play if it was free.

"I have not actually recommended many games, and I'll go on the record here saying my track record is probably best in the industry." - schild
HaemishM
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Reply #124 on: May 01, 2008, 03:06:09 PM

Not to condone the act of being an asshole, but if the guy did the work and produced the product what's wrong with wanting to get paid for it?   Selling 1,000,000 copies doesn't mean than the next one doesn't have equal value. 

It's like J.K. Rowling bitching about a spoilery review in the New York Times, even though she's already selling a bazillion copies and getting free press everywhere. Most game developers are fighting to get someone to play their game, and this fuckhead comes along bitching about pirates as if his game didn't sell more than most of the other non-WoW PC games out there, as well as get more pre-release press knob-polishing than most PC developers get in their lifetime. It's not about him not getting paid for his work, since he can't calculate each pirated copy as a sale anyway.

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Reply #125 on: May 01, 2008, 03:29:05 PM

It's like J.K. Rowling bitching about a spoilery review in the New York Times, even though she's already selling a bazillion copies and getting free press everywhere. Most game developers are fighting to get someone to play their game, and this fuckhead comes along bitching about pirates as if his game didn't sell more than most of the other non-WoW PC games out there, as well as get more pre-release press knob-polishing than most PC developers get in their lifetime. It's not about him not getting paid for his work, since he can't calculate each pirated copy as a sale anyway.
No it's not the same thing at all. To be the same thing, it would be like the NYT publishing it's own version of the book which it was giving away for free without her permission. If you create something I don't see that it's unreasonable to get pissy when people take it for free. It doesn't matter how many of them you sell, whether you're J.K. Rowling or some self-published hack. People don't have the right to take your work without paying for it whether they were intending to buy it anyway or not.

Arguing about how many copies they sell isn't the issue, neither is how many copies they didn't sell. The issue is that you're spending time and effort to provide a game/book/song that you're proud of and some mouthbreathers on the internet think they're entitled to rip you off and redistribute the product of your hard work (and not inconsequential financial investment) because 'they would never have bought it anyway' or 'they wanted to see if it was worth paying for' or 'games aren't worth paying for'.

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Samwise
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Reply #126 on: May 01, 2008, 04:40:33 PM

Arguing about how many copies they sell isn't the issue, neither is how many copies they didn't sell. The issue is that you're spending time and effort to provide a game/book/song that you're proud of and some mouthbreathers on the internet think they're entitled to rip you off and redistribute the product of your hard work (and not inconsequential financial investment) because 'they would never have bought it anyway' or 'they wanted to see if it was worth paying for' or 'games aren't worth paying for'.

What you're saying is that it's not about the money, it's about the principle.  Correct?  That's a valid stance to take (although I will still point you at libraries and their unauthorized use of copyrighted content and ask you why they're exempt from your righteous wrath about people using and distributing your work in ways that they were not explicitly authorized for), but it's not what the Crysis guy was saying at all.  He was complaining specifically about lost sales and saying that his numbers, high though they were, should have been higher.

You're griping about interweb jacktards thinking they're entitled to free shit.  I'm griping about Crysis jacktard thinking he's entitled to more sales.  If I thought he'd made a good game I might feel some sympathy for him, but I don't.

"I have not actually recommended many games, and I'll go on the record here saying my track record is probably best in the industry." - schild
tazelbain
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Reply #127 on: May 01, 2008, 04:47:46 PM

I am building a new computer and was going to buy a copy of crysis to put through its passes.  But fuck them.  Is there another top end game that I can use, who's developers aren't using bullshit statisics to whine about how they didn't get as many money hats as they wanted?

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Nebu
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Reply #128 on: May 01, 2008, 04:53:40 PM

You're griping about interweb jacktards thinking they're entitled to free shit.  I'm griping about Crysis jacktard thinking he's entitled to more sales. 

My stance is that both statements are correct.  Noone is entitled to anything for free that is copyrighted just as no businessman should feel entitled to be paid for fictional sales.   

"Always do what is right. It will gratify half of mankind and astound the other."

-  Mark Twain
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Reply #129 on: May 01, 2008, 05:00:09 PM

What you're saying is that it's not about the money, it's about the principle.  Correct?  That's a valid stance to take (although I will still point you at libraries and their unauthorized use of copyrighted content and ask you why they're exempt from your righteous wrath about people using and distributing your work in ways that they were not explicitly authorized for), but it's not what the Crysis guy was saying at all.  He was complaining specifically about lost sales and saying that his numbers, high though they were, should have been higher.
And he's right. People cared enough about his game to break the law and steal it. It's not as though they weren't buying it because they didn't care about the game or because they didn't like it. Normally if you want to play the game, you need to pay for it, why should people be able to exempt themselves from that just because they feel like it?

Libraries aren't unauthorised use either. They are explicitly authorised with specific restrictions on them.

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Reply #130 on: May 01, 2008, 05:17:52 PM

I am building a new computer and was going to buy a copy of crysis to put through its passes.  But fuck them.  Is there another top end game that I can use, who's developers aren't using bullshit statisics to whine about how they didn't get as many money hats as they wanted?

Call of Duty 4? Mass Effect?
Samwise
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Reply #131 on: May 01, 2008, 08:09:27 PM

You're griping about interweb jacktards thinking they're entitled to free shit.  I'm griping about Crysis jacktard thinking he's entitled to more sales. 

My stance is that both statements are correct.

Why did you object to my gripe if you think it's correct?   Head scratch

"I have not actually recommended many games, and I'll go on the record here saying my track record is probably best in the industry." - schild
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Reply #132 on: May 02, 2008, 12:06:16 AM

You're griping about interweb jacktards thinking they're entitled to free shit.  I'm griping about Crysis jacktard thinking he's entitled to more sales. 

My stance is that both statements are correct.  Noone is entitled to anything for free that is copyrighted just as no businessman should feel entitled to be paid for fictional sales.   

Agree. I wonder if it's a point that's so obvious people miss it?

Piracy is a seperate issue from sales. Sep-er-ate.



 "What I'm saying is you should make friends with a few catasses, they smell funny but they're very helpful."
-Calantus makes the best of a smelly situation.
tazelbain
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Reply #133 on: May 02, 2008, 07:33:44 AM


 Mass Effect?
Ya.  And Bio Shock.

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HaemishM
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Reply #134 on: May 02, 2008, 11:10:04 AM

You're griping about interweb jacktards thinking they're entitled to free shit.  I'm griping about Crysis jacktard thinking he's entitled to more sales. 

My stance is that both statements are correct.  Noone is entitled to anything for free that is copyrighted just as no businessman should feel entitled to be paid for fictional sales.   

Agree. I wonder if it's a point that's so obvious people miss it?

Piracy is a seperate issue from sales. Sep-er-ate.

Yes, it is. And just like music and movie piracy, it can be an effective marketing tool, so long as you don't treat every person who downloads your song/game/book/movie as a fucking criminal who should be buried under the jail. Treat them as a POTENTIAL sale. If you're REALLY worried about lost sales from piracy, the people you need to be dogfucking are the street vendors who are actually making money off of selling a bootlegged product (which for software is bigger in Asia and Russia than here) and the people charging for access to torrent sites.

Attacking the BitTorrent technology and its creators is just reliving the stupidity that was the Napster trial.

Nebu
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Reply #135 on: May 02, 2008, 11:52:16 AM

Attacking the BitTorrent technology and its creators is just reliving the stupidity that was the Napster trial.

Why do you even care what the music industry does?  If they want to spend millions of dollars chasing cars, that's their decision.  One of the side effects of these trials was that it mainstreamed the a la carte availability of music and video, which was sorely needed. 

The whole thing is a societal issue.  There's an air of entitlement in this country that is stronger than anything I've seen in my lifetime.  What's so hard about not downloading music, not copying software, and not copying movies without paying for them?  I mean really... why is it so hard to just not have what you never paid for? 

"Always do what is right. It will gratify half of mankind and astound the other."

-  Mark Twain
HaemishM
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Reply #136 on: May 02, 2008, 12:33:22 PM

Attacking the BitTorrent technology and its creators is just reliving the stupidity that was the Napster trial.

Why do you even care what the music industry does?  If they want to spend millions of dollars chasing cars, that's their decision.  One of the side effects of these trials was that it mainstreamed the a la carte availability of music and video, which was sorely needed. 

No, that was a side effect of the technology being developed that made single-song downloads easy to do. The trials meanwhile delayed the implementation of a reasonable method of monetizing those single-song downloads by a few years, pissed away tons of money and stifled one innovators abilities. Meanwhile, a billion other little download technologies sprung up like mushrooms. And every time the music industry has tried to squash them, they've only succeeded in driving the downloaders into a different method. Meanwhile, the music-buying/listening populace got used to the idea of downloading a single song or an album, and suddenly all that revenue that had started disappearing for CD sales started returning in the form of downloads.

All of which could have happened about 2-3 years earlier if the industry hadn't treated downloads like a purely criminal activity.


Quote
The whole thing is a societal issue.  There's an air of entitlement in this country that is stronger than anything I've seen in my lifetime.  What's so hard about not downloading music, not copying software, and not copying movies without paying for them?  I mean really... why is it so hard to just not have what you never paid for? 

Why is it so hard to realize that getting that little bit for free can turn a "pirate" into a customer for life?

Samwise
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Reply #137 on: May 02, 2008, 12:41:56 PM

The whole thing is a societal issue.  There's an air of entitlement in this country that is stronger than anything I've seen in my lifetime.  What's so hard about not downloading music, not copying software, and not copying movies without paying for them?  I mean really... why is it so hard to just not have what you never paid for? 

What you are railing against and what the content industries are most vigorously engaged in prosecuting are different things.  The main targets of prosecution and bile in the US are not the downloaders looking for free stuff at no cost, or the bootleggers looking to make profit off someone else's work, but the uploaders (e.g. P2P "supernodes") who enable everyone else and are generally motivated primarily by altruism (I realize that calling these "pirates" altruistic will probably rile some people, but they gain no profit from what they do and they expose themselves to some risk by doing it, so I feel it's apt).  How do they fit into your entitlement rant?

"I have not actually recommended many games, and I'll go on the record here saying my track record is probably best in the industry." - schild
Nebu
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Reply #138 on: May 02, 2008, 01:49:03 PM

How do they fit into your entitlement rant?

First, altruists do things for ethical reasons rather than financial.  I wish that I could believe these distributors acted with only the best interests of humanity in mind, but I really don't buy it.  They had financial incentives for doing so and I'm willing to bet that their distribution helped them in financial ways, at least before the litigation started.  You can't be money-motivated and an altruist at the same time.  At least not in the way I choose to define the term.  Second, it's not a "rant".  It's my opinion.  You're entitled to yours. 

Haemish: downloading material that you didn't obtain permission to download is wrong.  Whether it's criminal is debatable and I lack the expertise to enter into that discussion.  The actions of the record industry have nothing to do with this statement as they are separate issues.  My fundamental point is that: if people never copied material protected by copyright laws, we wouldn't even be having this discussion.  I guess I see things as being right and wrong rather than legal and illegal.  My personal morality suggests that I shouldn't take what doesn't belong to me.  Perhaps I'm just showing my age.  There is no justification for music piracy in the US, beyond selfishness.   
 


"Always do what is right. It will gratify half of mankind and astound the other."

-  Mark Twain
HaemishM
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Reply #139 on: May 02, 2008, 02:39:54 PM

There is no justification for music piracy in the US, beyond selfishness.   

I never claimed there was any other justification. As an artist myself, who hopes to get paid for his writing one of these days, my selfishness leads me to try to get my book published, and try to get as many people to buy and read it as I can. I want people to buy my books. But I'm not going to get my panties in a bunch about an individual downloading my books. That person could very easily become a great marketing asset for me if he likes the book, whether he buys a book ever or not. If he tells 5 people that he likes my book and 1 of those 5 buy a book, I'm good with those numbers.

Now the people I WILL get my panties in a bunch about are the assholes SELLING copies of my book that aren't authorized. Those fuckers can rot in hell. But I won't begrudge someone buying it from them, because everyone wants to get something for cheaper than expected. The guy buying the book just wants to read my stuff. The guy selling the copy? He's a douchey leech who's trying to steal my bread.

The problem comes in that the entertainment industries do not distinguish between the two. They call them both dirty pirates and curse them to hell. They should be cultivating the buyer and attacking the seller.

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