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Title: 360 outsells Wii for XMas
Post by: Murgos on January 02, 2007, 12:53:40 PM
Not a surprise to me but I thought someone here might be interested.

Quote
The figures, which relate to sales from the start of November until Christmas Eve 2006, are still very flabby and their firmness is not helped by a definition of ‘sold’ but they will make startling reading for Sony.

Xbox 360: approximately 2-million

Wii: approximately 1.8-million

Sony PlayStation 3: approximately 750,000

http://news.spong.com/article/11408?cb=553


Title: Re: 360 outsells Wii for XMas
Post by: Nebu on January 02, 2007, 01:18:44 PM
How much of this can you attribute to distribution issues?  I saw plenty of stock on X360's while Wii were sold out most places.  i.e. if there was an unlimited supply of both, would the Wii have outsold the X360?


Title: Re: 360 outsells Wii for XMas
Post by: Velorath on January 02, 2007, 01:55:59 PM
How much of this can you attribute to distribution issues?  I saw plenty of stock on X360's while Wii were sold out most places.  i.e. if there was an unlimited supply of both, would the Wii have outsold the X360?

Given that these are just the US numbers, I wouldn't be surprised if the Wii did outsell the 360 worldwide.


Title: Re: 360 outsells Wii for XMas
Post by: Yegolev on January 02, 2007, 02:17:27 PM
I assume that Wii and PS3 sold out.  They sure as fuck did around here.  Not sure about 360, I wasn't actually trying to get one.  If I had wanted to, I would not have had a problem with it.


Title: Re: 360 outsells Wii for XMas
Post by: stray on January 02, 2007, 02:26:18 PM
The PS3 will probably be selling like hotcakes by the time the next generation of MS and Nintendo consoles come out. Heh.

They really fucked up big time though. They marketed to the wrong gamers -- Ones that barely exist at that.

I'm also of two minds about the Blu-Ray. They'd be kicking ass right now if they didn't include it...And yet, the time is almost ripe for games to have that kind of capacity.


Title: Re: 360 outsells Wii for XMas
Post by: HaemishM on January 02, 2007, 03:00:35 PM
How much of this can you attribute to distribution issues?  I saw plenty of stock on X360's while Wii were sold out most places.  i.e. if there was an unlimited supply of both, would the Wii have outsold the X360?

I'm thinking it has a lot to do with distribution. Anecdotally, every place down here that got Wiis sold them out completely and still had people turned away. 360's were in plentiful supply, however anywhere you looked. Hell, I still can't find a Wiimote for sale around town, and even Wii Points cards have disappeared.


Title: Re: 360 outsells Wii for XMas
Post by: Strazos on January 02, 2007, 09:29:35 PM
Same around here. My store apparently got 3 Wiis in today, and sold them in about 5 minutes. Still can't find Anything else Wii related, besides memory cards and actual games.

We have some PS3s.


Title: Re: 360 outsells Wii for XMas
Post by: Velorath on January 03, 2007, 08:21:34 PM
It seems that those numbers may not be entirely accurate (http://biz.gamedaily.com/industry/news/?id=14842).


Title: Re: 360 outsells Wii for XMas
Post by: eldaec on January 04, 2007, 07:50:01 AM
Same here, Wii sold out, 360s ten a penny.

Also, plenty of anecdotal reports of nongamers who might have bought a Wii for novelty value.


Title: Re: 360 outsells Wii for XMas
Post by: Big Gulp on January 04, 2007, 07:57:23 AM
Same here, Wii sold out, 360s ten a penny.

Also, plenty of anecdotal reports of nongamers who might have bought a Wii for novelty value.


You're in the UK, aren't you Eld?  Did you guys get the Wii a couple weeks after us or was it a simultaneous release?


Title: Re: 360 outsells Wii for XMas
Post by: HaemishM on January 04, 2007, 01:16:07 PM
The Euro release was a few weeks after the US/Japan release.


Title: Re: 360 outsells Wii for XMas
Post by: stray on January 07, 2007, 11:05:19 PM
PS3's shipped 1 million to the US by the end of December (http://www.kotaku.com/gaming/top/ps3-launch-outsells-xbox-360-launch-226742.php).

Kind of encouraging. Not as bad as it seemed at first.

I imagine they'll start picking up now that the eBay sellers are pretty much out of the picture (it's what held me off at least).


Title: Re: 360 outsells Wii for XMas
Post by: Roac on January 08, 2007, 08:57:08 AM
PS3's shipped 1 million to the US by the end of December (http://www.kotaku.com/gaming/top/ps3-launch-outsells-xbox-360-launch-226742.php).

Kind of encouraging. Not as bad as it seemed at first.

I imagine they'll start picking up now that the eBay sellers are pretty much out of the picture (it's what held me off at least).

That's shipped, not sold.  By comparison, Nintendo states they have met their goal of shipping 4 million.  Anecdotally reports are the Wii sells out as soon as it arrives, whereas many PS3s are sitting on shelves. 


Title: Re: 360 outsells Wii for XMas
Post by: Yegolev on January 08, 2007, 10:46:02 AM
Also by comparison, I didn't see any Wii in Target, Wal*Mart or Sam's Club this past weekend.  I didn't really look for anything else (except UT2K4), but I believe Sam's had sold out their 360s.


Title: Re: 360 outsells Wii for XMas
Post by: naum on January 08, 2007, 04:08:13 PM
Still looking for a Wii... ...a couple of co-workers, on a whim, at lunch, called around and a local GameStop got two in and they just happened to call as they came in snagged them both...


Title: Re: 360 outsells Wii for XMas
Post by: HaemishM on January 08, 2007, 04:21:36 PM
So if Sony shipped 1 million units, that means they lost $150 million because of how much they are losing on each console. Only in the console business (or the MMOG launch business) can losing so much money be a positive thing for a company.


Title: Re: 360 outsells Wii for XMas
Post by: Murgos on January 09, 2007, 01:23:56 PM
I still don't buy that those numbers indicate actually loss to the company.  I think it's got to be opportunity cost or some other accounting who-ya.


Title: Re: 360 outsells Wii for XMas
Post by: HaemishM on January 09, 2007, 02:36:26 PM
It's still a number that feels like a kick in the chao sack.


Title: Re: 360 outsells Wii for XMas
Post by: Roac on January 09, 2007, 02:51:46 PM
It's still a number that feels like a kick in the chao sack.

Yes and no.  Depends on what Murgos or you are looking for by "actual loss".  Sony sees it as an investment, and one that they won't recoup for a while.  They do plan to recover costs though, both in long term console sales (5+ years), movie sales, game licensing, and hardware licensing.  They have spent a LOT of money both on R&D and first run production, but it's not just for the PS3.  They're also making Blu-Ray for its own sake, for PCs, for licensing, etc and intend to use it to help gain some control over all physical multimedia content.  The cell microprocessor is going into more devices than just the PS3, and you can bet Sony is getting a piece of that pie.  It's more complicated than spend money for the PS3, sell PS3 to recoup cost.  I doubt anyone at Sony is scared right now, although they should be worried about their margins midterm.  I think they're positioned very well long term, with the PS3 being at worst a nasty stumble.


Title: Re: 360 outsells Wii for XMas
Post by: Murgos on January 09, 2007, 03:54:55 PM
What I mean is that I think there is some actuarial who has a table that shows that if they had broken up production of components and sold them independently and invested R&D money differently that they could be showing a certain amount of pretty much guaranteed profit above what they are making per unit now.

To a company like Sony (or any major corporation) that counts as a net loss of income and a risky gamble even though they are probably making money atm.  I am also sure that Sony has run the numbers that show HUEG MONIES if they sell x# of PS-3s with crossover into Blu-Ray, game and other profits.

What I mean by actual loss is that the cost of research & production & distribution of a PS-3 > income of a PS-3 sale for some reasonable number of PS-3s sold (like 3 million which they can expect to hit even if the system is a total flop).


Title: Re: 360 outsells Wii for XMas
Post by: stray on January 09, 2007, 06:58:51 PM
The only thing I think they could have dropped without effecting games too much are the memory card slots in the 60 gig model, and Bluetooth (the main purpose being that they wanted to some motion sensing functionality, not necessarily wireless...Motion isn't that necessary, and wireless could have been done another way).

Dropping the Blu-Ray would not have been a good option. The Xbox already has multi-disc games -- and the good games that are on there are barely breaking 12 hours. That's not exactly ideal when their console is only a year old.

Besides that, when the 360 came out, it was estimated that it took $715 to make. Not any better than Sony really.

Historically speaking, it's MS that has blown the real money. Why doesn't anyone ever talk about that? At the end of the original XBox's lifespan (an all too short one I might add), they lost over $4 Billion (http://www.forbes.com/business/global/2005/1003/036A_4.html/). They never made a profit at all during the entire time either. Even if the 360 starts really making a profit this time around, it'll take more than that to get their game division as a whole on step with Sony and Nintendo.


Title: Re: 360 outsells Wii for XMas
Post by: Velorath on January 09, 2007, 09:27:29 PM
Historically speaking, it's MS that has blown the real money. Why doesn't anyone ever talk about that?

Because MS can afford to lose a fuckton of money and Sony can't.


Title: Re: 360 outsells Wii for XMas
Post by: stray on January 09, 2007, 09:30:18 PM
No, they can't. It's all relative. Either way, a company like MS wants to grow. Not shrink.


Title: Re: 360 outsells Wii for XMas
Post by: Velorath on January 09, 2007, 09:45:03 PM
No, they can't. It's all relative. Either way, a company like MS wants to grow. Not shrink.

They wanted to buy a foothold in the market.  Any company in the future that wants to get into the console market should probably expect to pay a similar amount.


Title: Re: 360 outsells Wii for XMas
Post by: stray on January 09, 2007, 10:36:49 PM
Haha, so Microsoft is providing a business model now?  :-P



Title: Re: 360 outsells Wii for XMas
Post by: Yegolev on January 10, 2007, 09:20:09 AM
Haha, so Microsoft is providing a business model now?  :-P

It's a model that apparently works.  They have more free cash than any other corporation that I am aware of, mostly because they didn't have anything to invest it in if you ask me.  Now they have a vast pit to toss it in.  If it pays off, people will call it an investment.


Title: Re: 360 outsells Wii for XMas
Post by: HaemishM on January 10, 2007, 01:43:44 PM
And if it pays off, the XBox360 becomes your set top box for Tivo, Internet and purchase of all sorts of downloadable media (not just games) as well as the DVD games you buy at the store. Microsoft lost $4 billion to make themself a player in the settop box market and they have done so quite well. To beat or equal Nintendo and threaten Sony is a pretty good feat, profit or no.


Title: Re: 360 outsells Wii for XMas
Post by: Jeff Kelly on January 11, 2007, 01:30:29 AM
To beat or equal Nintendo and threaten Sony is a pretty good feat, profit or no.

It took them 4 BILLION dollars just to get on equal grounds with sony or nintendo, that is neither a good business practice nor a good investment. It just shows that Microsoft and its OS monopoly are a real threat to any industry that Microsoft might be interested in and just how fucked up the console market really is.

Most companies out there don't even have that kind of money as liquid assets let alone as money to burn. The greatest thing is that they achieved a complete marketing turn-around. They went from devil's incarnate to baby jesus just in one generation and most of the fuck microsoft crowd even on this board has turned to raving fanbois telling everybody just how great the 360 is. WTF?

The only thing that microsoft can is throwing money at problems until they disappear, that is no feat. It would have been if they had achieved the same with 40 million loss or with a slight profit.


Title: Re: 360 outsells Wii for XMas
Post by: Margalis on January 11, 2007, 02:34:45 AM
MS will never be a significant set-top box player, especially not with thier latest infatuation with DRM and screwing the consumer.

Apple is going to eat their lunch in the living room.


Title: Re: 360 outsells Wii for XMas
Post by: Roac on January 11, 2007, 08:47:55 AM
MS will never be a significant set-top box player, especially not with thier latest infatuation with DRM and screwing the consumer.

Apple is going to eat their lunch in the living room.

The XBox as a media center is doing reasonably well (http://www.gamesindustry.biz/content_page.php?aid=21991).  Also, the 360 accounts for 22% of all HD players (http://www.joystiq.com/2007/01/08/ps3-xbox-360-account-for-80-of-blu-ray-hd-dvd-players/).  Sony has 58%, but there is a huge difference; everyone who owns the 360 HD-DVD willingly sought out hi def movies.  Some, and perhaps a significant number of PS3 buyers don't care about Blu-Ray, at least yet.  They will supposedly turn profit in a year or so (http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=10275), based on current trends. 

Microsoft is following a similar strategy to Sony, where the goal is to try and buy their way into a niche.  It can be done by either company, but historically Microsoft has run this strategy very, very well.  Moreover, if you notice they are keeping their options open by not locking themselves into either HD-DVD or downloadable content; they want to remain flexible enough to go wherever the customer wants.  Microsoft doesn't really care about HD-DVD, unlike Sony and Blu-Ray.  Their main reason to back it is of course because it's not Sony, but they could very well switch or go to a universal DVD player in attempt to one up Sony.  With the aweful publicity that Sony has been getting over the PS3, it's very realistic for MS to pull ahead in the console market and be positioned well for any media box role.

Apple is an unknown in this.  They have gotten pounded in the computer market (and have gone so far as to remove that word from their corporate name), but have always exceeded in multimedia.  Their company is virtually run on iPod/iTunes anymore, and there's some worry that they've relegated themselves to a (very profitable) one trick pony.  Thing is, Apple TV is going to cost almost as much as a 360, except that it doesn't play games.  Although unproven and more costly, the PS3 has similar potential.  I'm personally wondering what their target demograhpic is.


Title: Re: 360 outsells Wii for XMas
Post by: stray on January 11, 2007, 08:52:49 AM
Some, and perhaps a significant number of PS3 buyers don't care about Blu-Ray, at least yet.

Uh... We're still in early adopter phase. 2 months in. Blu-Ray is a huge factor.

Your assessment would be true later when more of the mainstream buys it, but not now.

I hate to say this, but that it's biggest draw right now.


Title: Re: 360 outsells Wii for XMas
Post by: Roac on January 11, 2007, 09:15:11 AM
I said that some people who purchased a PS3 don't care much about Blu-Ray, not that it was unimportant.  It certainly is a significant draw for some poeple, just as it's unimportant for some others.  This is in contrast to the 360 HD-DVD, where EVERY buyer thought that format important because it's an exclusive buy.  Additionally, quite a few critics are pissing on Blu-Ray (http://www.netscape.com/viewstory/2006/12/07/-optical-hd-battle-may-be-over-hd-dvd-wins/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fnews.digitaltrends.com%2Ftalkback158.html&frame=true).  HD-DVD is moving inventory in the HD arena, which isn't moving much to start with.  Of course this is early adoption phase, and things could change.  Mind you, first imprssions are VERY important, but are not always the final verdict.  Again, that's why I said some PS3 buyers don't care yet.  Maybe they will in a year. 

But here's the real problem.  At the moment, the majority (80%+) of people who are in the HD market at all are console buyers, either the 360 or PS3.  Almost nobody is buying an HD player on its own.  The people with money to burn are getting more actual Blu-Ray players out there, but the movie titles that are moving are about even or with HD-DVD taking a lead.  Meaning, PS3 guys just aren't buying as much.  Blu-Ray players are not being used as much in the hardcore market, and that's significant because it's going to make it easier to get wider acceptance and earlier price drop on HD-DVD products, so that when mass market acceptance time starts to roll around, that's where they're going to go.  Remember, mass market tends to vote cheap.  Most people are going to think you a loon if you try to sell them a $1000 or even $500 DVD player.

What Blu-Ray has going for it is superior technology, and several very large companies that support it exclusively.  It almost certainly isn't going anywhere, because the consumer won't be given a choice but to accept it.  If half the movies you want to watch are only released on Blu-Ray, you're eventually going to have a player that can read Blu-Ray disks.  With the advent of players that can read both formats and DVDs that can host both formats, it may become a non-issue for the consumer, akin to DVD+/- stuffs.  That may mean it's not a loss, but it is by no means a win for Sony because it makes it difficult for the mass market to justify the initial higher cost (which will continue to exist for some time).

Which is to say, the 360 will remain plenty compeditive because Sony dropped the ball.  Sony is far from dead, but they're not the near the leader they once were.


Title: Re: 360 outsells Wii for XMas
Post by: Yegolev on January 11, 2007, 10:33:52 AM
Was it dusematic that said they key here is that HD-DVD sounds like DVD?  Blu-Ray does not sound like DVD.  BetaMax did not sound like VCR but VHS did.  People are dumb, you have to account for that.


Title: Re: 360 outsells Wii for XMas
Post by: HaemishM on January 11, 2007, 11:07:01 AM
Was it dusematic that said they key here is that HD-DVD sounds like DVD?  Blu-Ray does not sound like DVD.  BetaMax did not sound like VCR but VHS did.  People are dumb, you have to account for that.

People are dumb, cheap and want variety. The format which gets cheapest quickest, with the biggest selection of mass market movies and least amount of hassle will win. The mass market does not support two formats for its media. CD crushed tape: even though you can still buy tapes, your selection is probably limited by this point. DVD has crushed VHS and VHS crushed beta. You will not see the mass market accept both formats, they will go to one format over another and eventually the losing format will have to fold up, exclusives or no. Early indicators say HD-DVD is in the lead (at least to me) but we'll see.

As for the Microsoft model, it certainly isn't one to emulate, because who the fuck has billions just lying around to work with? But it has worked for Microsoft, and it's been the model they've followed ever since they got big and liquid. Buy or steal someone else's shit, make it better and profit. Where the 360 really has it over both the PS3 and the Wii is it's capabilites as an ONLINE media convergence device. The online component cannot be discounted. The Live Service is a fantastically designed piece of social software, while both Sony's and Nintendo's online services are cobbled together afterthoughts, despite their strong points.

The real product Microsoft is selling is Live. The console is just its vehicle.


Title: Re: 360 outsells Wii for XMas
Post by: schild on January 11, 2007, 11:13:57 AM
It's not really fair to compare the PS3 or Wii to the 360 due to Live. Let's strip Live away for a moment. Oh, shit, the 360 is still the best of the 3 AND has the best upcoming game list. Wait, Nintendo brought out 1 online game and the PS3 brought out some downloadable shit - oh, neat, there's the Gamerscore system. Microsoft still has the best system. They used that year they had and fucking made something of it. Microsoft isn't just selling Live. They're selling the whole damn package. And as an owner of all 3 systems, I'll say this: That Package is super fucking nice.


Title: Re: 360 outsells Wii for XMas
Post by: Sky on January 11, 2007, 11:52:45 AM
I'm still standing by the whole 'included with PS3' thing being huge.


Title: Re: 360 outsells Wii for XMas
Post by: HaemishM on January 11, 2007, 12:04:16 PM
Sure, it could mean the difference between success and failure, or it could mean the difference between dying in 2010 or 2008.


Title: Re: 360 outsells Wii for XMas
Post by: stray on January 11, 2007, 06:21:03 PM
I like the Sony interface (and the Wii for that matter). XBL is nice, but ugly.

Anyways, I don't think it'll be some great task for Sony to replicate it's success. Online play is already great out of the box. They just need some kind of way to track friends and bring up the Network interface within games. And as I mentioned in another thread, if the chair of Epic thinks your online model is better, then that's a good thing. It's a lot more of an open system than what Microsoft has.

Bonus that PSN is free..

Btw, speaking of that, here are some fun numbers:

XBL over 5 years: $250
Wireless: $100
HD-DVD: $200
XBox Pro: $400
---------------------
$950


Title: Re: 360 outsells Wii for XMas
Post by: Big Gulp on January 11, 2007, 07:00:56 PM
Bonus that PSN is free..

You get what you pay for.  Call me when I can keep track of all my friends, send them a voicemail in their game, invite them to whatever game I'm currently playing and presto bango, they're playing with me.  Also let me know when every game has voice enabled by default.


Title: Re: 360 outsells Wii for XMas
Post by: stray on January 11, 2007, 07:07:53 PM
Man, I could be a better XBox fanboi than you. There are better, more unique strengths to it than that. OS features are the last thing to defend here, as those can change easily. I'd expect each one of those things to be on PSN within a year.


Title: Re: 360 outsells Wii for XMas
Post by: Big Gulp on January 11, 2007, 07:23:34 PM
Man, I could be a better XBox fanboi than you. There are better, more unique strengths to it than that. OS features are the last thing to defend here, as those can change easily. I'd expect each one of those things to be on PSN within a year.

Considering that the Gran Turismo download brought down the network I have doubts as to it's robustness.  Particularly when you consider that they don't even have 1 million consoles out there and the download was launched a day early as a surprise, so very few people even knew about it.  This doesn't exactly fill me with confidence as to their eventual online strategy.

Look, I didn't own any of the previous gen consoles except for the Cube I bought used 8 months ago.  If the PS3 gathers steam and gives me a reason to eventually buy one, I will.  But that's the problem, right now the system is made up entirely of potential and fairy dust.  The 360's only real problem is the enormous amount of hardware defects, but at the very least they seem to be extremely eager to fix 'em.  For everything else, from exclusive must-own games to the very best online experience I've ever had (including the PC, the supposed king of online) the 360 has crushed all my expectations.  The 360's shiny goodness is a reality right now, the PS3's shiny goodness is entirely theoretical and as yet unrealized.


Title: Re: 360 outsells Wii for XMas
Post by: Roac on January 11, 2007, 07:26:23 PM
OS features are the last thing to defend here, as those can change easily.

Then why aren't they already included?  


Title: Re: 360 outsells Wii for XMas
Post by: Big Gulp on January 11, 2007, 07:48:50 PM
Also felt like adding that I don't in any way want the PS3 to fail.  Sony needs to stick around to keep MS hungry (and vice versa).  However, it's hard to be a booster for what Sony's doing with the PS3 when it's just been one unending string of fuckups.  I don't think they could have damaged their prospects more if they were intentionally sabotaging themselves.


Title: Re: 360 outsells Wii for XMas
Post by: stray on January 11, 2007, 07:52:06 PM
OS features are the last thing to defend here, as those can change easily.

Then why aren't they already included?  

Software doesn't grow on trees? They just released the console, and they're already adding updates as it is. More will trickle down. I don't what you're reading, but it's not even close to bad to begin with. I'm already playing a shooter with larger capacities than anything on the XBox now. I can already do clan and team set ups with it. It has a messaging system. It has a browser and store. It's not like there's nothing, or that things are broken. They're not.

BigGulp: What fuckups? Outside of the initial slow BD manufacturing, and Krazy Ken's big mouth (and just bad PR tactics in general), they aren't doing that bad.


Title: Re: 360 outsells Wii for XMas
Post by: Krakrok on January 11, 2007, 07:53:13 PM
I don't see this info in the thread yet. Japan sales of the consoles were (according to some article I have no idea where I read):

Wii: ~986,000
PS3: ~400,000
360: ~240,000


Title: Re: 360 outsells Wii for XMas
Post by: squirrel on January 11, 2007, 08:03:55 PM
Historically speaking, it's MS that has blown the real money. Why doesn't anyone ever talk about that?

No, they can't. It's all relative. Either way, a company like MS wants to grow. Not shrink.

Oh for fucks sake get over your MSoft hate and Sony love. Read a bit about the two companies and then come back and defend your posts. Jesus. Learn a little objectivity.

HINT: MSoft has the world's largest war chest and is wildly profitable. Sony is a fucked up business losing market share and money in just about every market they compete in. Growth != revenue by the way.


Title: Re: 360 outsells Wii for XMas
Post by: Big Gulp on January 11, 2007, 08:19:57 PM
Growth != revenue by the way.

Yep, and Microsoft's MO has always been growth, damn the expense.  Shit, for most of their history (and a wildly profitable history, at that) they never payed any dividends at all to their shareholders, that money just went right back into the borg machine.  It was only because of shareholder grumbling that they finally started to pay them out on a regular basis.


Title: Re: 360 outsells Wii for XMas
Post by: stray on January 11, 2007, 08:25:03 PM
Historically speaking, it's MS that has blown the real money. Why doesn't anyone ever talk about that?

No, they can't. It's all relative. Either way, a company like MS wants to grow. Not shrink.

Oh for fucks sake get over your MSoft hate and Sony love. Read a bit about the two companies and then come back and defend your posts. Jesus. Learn a little objectivity.

HINT: MSoft has the world's largest war chest and is wildly profitable. Sony is a fucked up business losing market share and money in just about every market they compete in. Growth != revenue by the way.

Hah. Wtf? Is this bizzaro world? Losing four billion dollars is "bad". That's all there is to it. If saying otherwise is "objective" then fuck your objectivity. I have no use for it.

As for Sony "love", nothing I post on this site is about Sony love as much as it is simply about stopping FUD (though I do hate Microsoft, no doubt....But that has fuckall to do with Sony). Seriously, you guys are off your fucking rockers. You post an extreme amount of bullshit. Someone has to speak up.

I'm the neutral one. Me. You, on the other hand, needlessly flame people for pointing out things like Microsoft's financial standing in this business.


Title: Re: 360 outsells Wii for XMas
Post by: squirrel on January 11, 2007, 08:28:46 PM
Historically speaking, it's MS that has blown the real money. Why doesn't anyone ever talk about that?

No, they can't. It's all relative. Either way, a company like MS wants to grow. Not shrink.

Oh for fucks sake get over your MSoft hate and Sony love. Read a bit about the two companies and then come back and defend your posts. Jesus. Learn a little objectivity.

HINT: MSoft has the world's largest war chest and is wildly profitable. Sony is a fucked up business losing market share and money in just about every market they compete in. Growth != revenue by the way.

Hah. Wtf? Is this bizzaro world? Losing four billion dollars is "bad". That's all there is to it. If saying otherwise is "objective" then fuck your objectivity. I have no use for it.

As for Sony "love", nothing I post on this site is about Sony love as much as it is simply about stopping FUD (though I do hate Microsoft, no doubt....But that has fuckall to do with Sony). Seriously, you guys are off your fucking rockers. You post an extreme amount of bullshit. Someone has to speak up.

I'm the neutral one. Me. You, on the other hand, needlessly flame people for pointing out things like Microsoft's financial standing in this business.

They are not wildly profitable. Hardware wise, they're losing money on the Zune front, the XB front, and the Tablet front. With the 360 finally (and just) redeeming things a bit (but overall, the games division is in an upward climb because of the last generation).

Look man, I've been reasonable in many threads in the face of your sony dick sucking gushing just because you bought a PS3. You know fucking nothing about business if you think spending money to gain market share is bad. I don't love Msoft - I'm an Apple user personally - but being objective I can read their financials and see that as a business they make a fuckton of money even if individual initiatives aren't profitable. Unlike Sony who are losing money faster than a drunk midget in a stripjoint. Wanna argue that? Care to look at edgar and read the financials. Don't be a fucking tard, admit when you're wrong.

EDIT: You claiming to be neutral while arguing that MSoft losing money is the same kind of 'bad' as how Sony loses money is hilarious. Way to make my point for me.


Title: Re: 360 outsells Wii for XMas
Post by: stray on January 11, 2007, 08:36:28 PM
Admit when I'm wrong? What? You're just right by fiat now? Please. You haven't posted anything but flames.

As for the Sony gushing, I simply like the PS3. It's a kickass system. Because I'm not participating in "the hate" doesn't mean I'm sucking their dicks. I've said time and time again that I'll be getting a Wii and a 360 too. I already have older consoles from all three. Nothing will change.


Title: Re: 360 outsells Wii for XMas
Post by: Roac on January 11, 2007, 08:38:41 PM
Software doesn't grow on trees? They just released the console, and they're already adding updates as it is. More will trickle down. I don't what you're reading, but it's not even close to bad to begin with. I'm already playing a shooter with larger capacities than anything on the XBox now. I can already do clan and team set ups with it. It has a messaging system. It has a browser and store. It's not like there's nothing, or that things are broken. They're not.

I didn't say it was bad.  You were given a list of features that the PS3 had, to which you responded it would be easy to add them.  If it were easy, why hasn't it been done?  Answer:  Either it isn't as easy as you think (time, resources, technical issues, whatever) or they lack the desire (deemed not worth the trouble, not part of their vision, etc).  In any case, they don't have it.  Quit trying to spin that as a positive of some sort.


Title: Re: 360 outsells Wii for XMas
Post by: squirrel on January 11, 2007, 08:38:55 PM
Admit when I'm wrong? What? You're just right by fiat now? Please. You haven't posted anything but flames.

As for the Sony gushing, I simply like the PS3. It's a kickass system. Because I'm not pariticipating in "the hate" doesn't mean I'm sucking their dicks. I've said time and time again that I'll be getting a Wii and a 360 too. I already have older consoles from all three. Nothing will change.

How about instead of crying that I flamed you and hurt your feelings you answer the fucking question:

I can read their financials and see that as a business they make a fuckton of money even if individual initiatives aren't profitable. Unlike Sony who are losing money faster than a drunk midget in a stripjoint. Wanna argue that? Care to look at edgar and read the financials.

Do you want to argue this or not? If not your previous posts are incorrect and YOU ARE WRONG. Admit it or stand up and fight.

And i won't swear anymore to respect your delicate sensitivity.  :roll:

EDIT: And btw - I've said repeatedly in threads I know you've read that I like the PS3 as a system. That is irrelevant to your assertion that MSoft losing money to be into a market while they remain overall profitable is the same as Sony losing money - which is all they seem good at lately. (Overall MSoft is hugely profitable. Overall Sony is hugely unprofitable. Do i need to draw you a clearer picture?)


Title: Re: 360 outsells Wii for XMas
Post by: schild on January 11, 2007, 08:43:48 PM
Hay guys. Sup?


Title: Re: 360 outsells Wii for XMas
Post by: stray on January 11, 2007, 08:53:50 PM
Hay guys. Sup?

Heh. Squirrel thinks I'm sensitive.


Title: Re: 360 outsells Wii for XMas
Post by: Roac on January 11, 2007, 08:55:28 PM
Do i need to draw you a clearer picture?)

A chart would be nice, but it's only page 2.


Title: Re: 360 outsells Wii for XMas
Post by: squirrel on January 11, 2007, 08:56:32 PM
Hay guys. Sup?

Heh. Squirrel thinks I'm sensitive.

Heh. Stray thinks he's right.  :wink:


Title: Re: 360 outsells Wii for XMas
Post by: squirrel on January 11, 2007, 08:59:02 PM
Do i need to draw you a clearer picture?)

A chart would be nice, but it's only page 2.

I'll have to see if i can get Signe to provide one - hers are more impressive than mine.


Title: Re: 360 outsells Wii for XMas
Post by: stray on January 11, 2007, 09:34:09 PM
Yeah, someone really does need to post some charts.  :-P I'm having a hard time finding info.

Seems like Sony actually was operating at a profit up until August. Sony electronics and Sony Erricson are selling well (call it a different company if you want). PS3 production, however, and especially the recent battery fiasco, put them in the red (A brief report (http://www.pcworld.com/article/id,127672/article.html).

Microsoft was at a loss during Sony's good summer, but picked up right around November. So for now, yes, they are not in the shithole that Sony is.

[EDIT] "In the red" might be slightly too old for reporting though. Sony recently just projected profits by the end of this year, and stock has risen. Coupling that with the entire gaming division raking in more cash than MS and Nintendo after Christmas (Due to the PS2/PS3 combo (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/blogs/sfgate/detail?blogid=19&entry_id=12568)), it doesn't seem all that bad.

Relatively speaking, the entire scope of these two companies are more equal than not. I will admit that. Gaming division wise however, they are not. $4 billion loss over the last generation, coupled with slow gains this generation to make that back is nothing to gloat about. And that was my only point with that original post -- It's silly to talk about Sony's business foibles when Microsoft has historically done much worse.

This all goes without mentioning how Microsoft is going to get their asses kicked by Google and Apple, in their respective domains (already are getting their asses kicked actually). Their best business is still Windows and Office (and who knows after Vista).


Title: Re: 360 outsells Wii for XMas
Post by: Trippy on January 11, 2007, 10:30:59 PM
Growth != revenue by the way.
Yep, and Microsoft's MO has always been growth, damn the expense.  Shit, for most of their history (and a wildly profitable history, at that) they never payed any dividends at all to their shareholders, that money just went right back into the borg machine.  It was only because of shareholder grumbling that they finally started to pay them out on a regular basis.
Actually the money wasn't going back into growing the Borg machine, they were simply accumulating a humongous pile of cash. Sure it's nice to have a stockpile of cash for a rainy day but Microsoft had/has so much of it the stockholders wanted them to do *something* with it, so they decided to start paying out a dividend. They were up to over $50 billion -- yes billion -- in 2003 (it's good to be a monopoly) and now they are down to around $30 billion or so.


Title: Re: 360 outsells Wii for XMas
Post by: stray on January 11, 2007, 10:34:04 PM
Software doesn't grow on trees? They just released the console, and they're already adding updates as it is. More will trickle down. I don't what you're reading, but it's not even close to bad to begin with. I'm already playing a shooter with larger capacities than anything on the XBox now. I can already do clan and team set ups with it. It has a messaging system. It has a browser and store. It's not like there's nothing, or that things are broken. They're not.

I didn't say it was bad.  You were given a list of features that the PS3 had, to which you responded it would be easy to add them.  If it were easy, why hasn't it been done?  Answer:  Either it isn't as easy as you think (time, resources, technical issues, whatever) or they lack the desire (deemed not worth the trouble, not part of their vision, etc).  In any case, they don't have it.  Quit trying to spin that as a positive of some sort.

I said it would be easy to add them over time.

As opposed to the bullshit Microsoft's suits spout out (http://www.gamesindustry.biz/content_page.php?aid=22117) about Sony not having the "talent" and that it's not in their "DNA" to make an online service.


Title: Re: 360 outsells Wii for XMas
Post by: squirrel on January 11, 2007, 11:16:43 PM
Growth != revenue by the way.
Yep, and Microsoft's MO has always been growth, damn the expense.  Shit, for most of their history (and a wildly profitable history, at that) they never payed any dividends at all to their shareholders, that money just went right back into the borg machine.  It was only because of shareholder grumbling that they finally started to pay them out on a regular basis.
Actually the money wasn't going back into growing the Borg machine, they were simply accumulating a humongous pile of cash. Sure it's nice to have a stockpile of cash for a rainy day but Microsoft had/has so much of it the stockholders wanted them to do *something* with it, so they decided to start paying out a dividend. They were up to over $50 billion -- yes billion -- in 2003 (it's good to be a monopoly) and now they are down to around $30 billion or so.


And this is what I referred to as their "War Chest". They hold a phenomenal amount of cash and liquid securities. Obscene amounts actually, and shareholders were right to complain, although dividends are not necessarily the best use of that money. Still you don't MSoft stock for it to act as a mutual fund, which was essentially the case with that kind of liquid sitting around.


Title: Re: 360 outsells Wii for XMas
Post by: Strazos on January 12, 2007, 01:37:18 AM
Microsoft dumping cash to get into the console market can only be seen as a loss if the initiative fails. If they succeed (which they seem to be doing), it's an investment.

You have to spend money to make money.


Title: Re: 360 outsells Wii for XMas
Post by: Velorath on January 12, 2007, 02:06:29 AM
It took them 4 BILLION dollars just to get on equal grounds with sony or nintendo, that is neither a good business practice nor a good investment. It just shows that Microsoft and its OS monopoly are a real threat to any industry that Microsoft might be interested in and just how fucked up the console market really is.

What it shows is that trying to break into the console market is like trying to run for President as a 3rd party candidate.  You'd better be ready to lose a shitload of money and don't expect to actually win on your first try, if at all.  Nintendo was smart to avoid competing with MS and Sony in the "next-gen" market this time around because the console market now is all about blowing a ton of money upfront with the hopes of making it back later.  Between R&D costs and the loss Sony takes on each console, how many years does anyone think it will take for the PS3 to actually become profitable for Sony?  How many games and accessories will each person have to buy in order to offset the loss on the system itself?


Title: Re: 360 outsells Wii for XMas
Post by: geldonyetich on January 12, 2007, 02:29:19 AM
I'm thinking of getting a Wii, but there's not that many good games out for it yet.  Wii Sports... Zelda: Twilight Princess... uh...?

As for the PS3, I think I'll wait until they come out with a version that emulates the PS2 better.  With games like Rogue Galaxy (http://www.us.playstation.com/Content/OGS/SCUS-97490/Site/) coming out, the PS2 is actually a better gaming platform than the PS3 right now.


 


Title: Re: 360 outsells Wii for XMas
Post by: squirrel on January 12, 2007, 03:07:49 AM
Between R&D costs and the loss Sony takes on each console, how many years does anyone think it will take for the PS3 to actually become profitable for Sony?  How many games and accessories will each person have to buy in order to offset the loss on the system itself?

I can't recall where I read it but with fully loaded costs and a attachment rate of 2 (2 games sold with each unit) Sony should recover their costs in approximately 30 - 36 months. Assuming manufacturing costs drop as well to a profitable level they can be making money in 3 years. This of course completely discounts the potential revenue from the Blu Ray licenses as well as the PS3 titles that will no doubt ship loads. Personally I think they'd be targeting profitability per unit in 24 months.

All that is totally suspect as it's off the top of my head on what i recall from reading about it a fair bit.


Title: Re: 360 outsells Wii for XMas
Post by: stray on January 12, 2007, 03:20:45 AM
I'm thinking of getting a Wii, but there's not that many good games out for it yet.  Wii Sports... Zelda: Twilight Princess... uh...?

As for the PS3, I think I'll wait until they come out with a version that emulates the PS2 better.  With games like Rogue Galaxy (http://www.us.playstation.com/Content/OGS/SCUS-97490/Site/) coming out, the PS2 is actually a better gaming platform than the PS3 right now.


I imagine they might do some software side fixes for some of the games that aren't compatible at the moment (It's what Microsoft does, though overall, their solution is all software. All emulation is done in software on the 360. Which means less games than Sony. Sony put a PS2 EE chip in the PS3. Although it may be halfassed, it's better than the MS solution).

On the other hand, some games will not work at all, if certain unique hardware components are involved. Like Guitar Hero (due to it's lack of Bluetooth interfacing).

Either way, the PS3 backward's compatibility is not going to change in any drastic way. Take that for what it's worth.

Between R&D costs and the loss Sony takes on each console, how many years does anyone think it will take for the PS3 to actually become profitable for Sony?  How many games and accessories will each person have to buy in order to offset the loss on the system itself?

Supposedly, the 20gig PS3 cost $804 to make. It costs $840 to make the 60 gig model. I'll just set the median price at $820, and the median retail price at $550. So for every console sold, they're losing $270.

At one million units sold, they are making $550 million (while it cost $820 million to manufacture, with a loss of $270 million).

So, for the sake of argument, they need to make $270 million for every million consoles sold (their goal is 6 million at the end of 2007 by the way).

As for accessories, how much does a Sixaxis controller cost to make? Anyone know? It retails for $50.

"Official" HDMI cables retail for $50

The BD remote retails for $25

Memory card adaptor is $15

As for games, I think they get a $10 royalty per game? Or is it $15? Either way, they basically need to sell 20 or 30 games per console (or a bit less, if console buyers purchase some of the accessories mentioned above).

Should we also count Blu-Ray movies too?


Title: Re: 360 outsells Wii for XMas
Post by: Jeff Kelly on January 12, 2007, 03:48:36 AM
And this is what I referred to as their "War Chest". They hold a phenomenal amount of cash and liquid securities. Obscene amounts actually, and shareholders were right to complain, although dividends are not necessarily the best use of that money. Still you don't MSoft stock for it to act as a mutual fund, which was essentially the case with that kind of liquid sitting around.

The problem is that they have 30 billion in the bank, AND NO FUCKING CLUE HOW TO USE THAT MONEY. That is why the stockholders are complaining. That they are giving the money away as dividends clearly shows that they have no use for their big warchest and no clue how to use that kind of money to actually do something with it.

They lack strategy. The only thing they are good at is throwing obscene amounts of cash around in order to get into a new market. That is no strategy.

Take Vista for example: They blew 2 billion dollars and 5 years on the development of something that now only has 20% of the features that were announced. Nearly everything that was a bit hard to implement or design was scrapped because the development teams fucked it up.

In those 5 years Apple has managed to develop a whole new OS and has already gone through 5 iterations of said OS while being on par or even better featurewise and they have spent one tenth of the amount microsoft has. They developed the iPod to generate sales for the Mac platform (halo effect) and have doubled their marketshare

THAT is a strategy.

Microsoft has spent nearly 2 billion and has taken 8 years to get a foothold in the PDA/smartphone industry. At times they were giving away licences for Windows CE/Pocket PC 200X for free so that at least somebody was deploying that. After all that time and money they are still not the major player in the mobile phone industry with only 10% market share in the smartphone market (Symbian 55%) and less than 2% in the whole phone market.

That is not a strategy.

In the same timeframe SonyEricsson has gone from naught to 7% market share and Samsung from naught to 12% market share and Symbian from naught to 55% in the smartphone market.

THAT is a strategy.

If sony wasn't continually shooting itself in the foot, the 360 wouldn't be the number one in the next gen market and the PS2 is still outselling the 360 by a wide margin, and if they don't watch out nintendo might even be able to eat their lunch with the Wii and the DS.

Without the obscene amounts of money coming from the Windows and Office business (the only ones that are currently profitable), Microsoft would already be out of business.

And worst of all they have no clue as to how to spend that money in a clever way.

If their OS business takes a deep hit somewhere down the road they are in serious trouble and they know it. That is the reason why they fiercely combat everything that might destroy their stranglehold on the OS and Office sector (Java, Linux, Media centers, mobile platforms etc.)

Stockholders are getting more nervous by the minute because they too realize that microsoft has no clue and no direction. It is usually only reacting to innovations coming from other companies.


Title: Re: 360 outsells Wii for XMas
Post by: Jeff Kelly on January 12, 2007, 04:06:52 AM
but being objective I can read their financials and see that as a business they make a fuckton of money even if individual initiatives aren't profitable. Unlike Sony who are losing money faster than a drunk midget in a stripjoint.

The only two business units that are profitable are the desktop OS (Windows) and business software unit (Office) everything else bleeds money. At the moment however apart from some analysts nobody cares about that because those two units make an obscene amount of money that easily offsets any losses by other BUs.

Sony's only profitable BU is the console and games unit with every other unit bleeding money. Mainly because Sonys product strategy is totally inane, they take ages to react to customer demands and suffer from "not invented here" syndrome. If everbody and his dog is using mp3 Sony will use ATTRAC. If the next gen format for video coding is MPEG4 Sony will use MPEG2. By the time that sony releases something new all the competitors have already moved on to the next great thing etc.


Title: Re: 360 outsells Wii for XMas
Post by: stray on January 12, 2007, 04:16:17 AM
Supposedly, their TV's are making money (I do not endorse Sony televisions btw. They've all fucked up on me ;)). Apple is killing in them in the music sphere. Their computers division has tanked, and undergone a complete overhaul (without only laptops in sight for the time being).

And yet, they were profiting up until those batteries fucked up (they lost nearly a half of billion from it). The PS3 launch exacerbated the situation.


Title: Re: 360 outsells Wii for XMas
Post by: squirrel on January 12, 2007, 04:25:23 AM
Too much stuff to quote Jeff, so I'll try and respond reasonably and linearly.

Firstly I agree with you on the Msoft comments - mostly. There's a couple deviations in my opinion (but it's been a while since i did my MBA and looked at Msoft in any depth.)

AFAIK their revenue is driven by Office (something like 40 - 50%). They use that to shoehorn in their OS and backend apps by making Enterprise site licenses cheaper than outfitting a whole org with Office. The end result is that companies end up with Office for everyone, Exchange (natch), and things like Sharepoint which kind of suck but are free so get used. Windows (consumer) is a break-even at best product last time I looked, but it gets its funding from the Corporate sales and the bundled server OS's. At that level MS does well, just because there is NO credible threat to Office in the Corporate world (unfortunately). Outlook and Excel alone will keep them afloat for a long time.

I completely agree that the warchest is a big bag of missed opportunity. I wouldn't say they have no strategy however. It's simply that they are pursuing a old and weakening model - follow, don't lead, acquire rather than develop (Direct X, CMS, SQL) use leverage to cast doubt on rivals (their database is named SQL - their content system is called CMS - way to confuse the consumer). The dividend payout is not a symptom of this though, they fought it pretty hard and were legislated into paying it.

As a long time Apple user, current owner of 2 new Apple machines, an iPod and a Airport to go station as well as a shareholder, I agree - but Apple is largely irrelevant at this scale, for now anyway. Times may change.

Sony on the other hand is not only extremely mismanaged, but they have a fundamental business divide that is causing massive infighting. As a huge content producer they need to be proponents of DRM and standardized media. As a huge consumer electronics manufacturer they need to supply the consumer with the products they want. It's a source of massive conflict internally and coupled with their lame duck management is killing the company. Add the not invented here issue you mention and it becomes lethal.

Interesting times...


Title: Re: 360 outsells Wii for XMas
Post by: stray on January 12, 2007, 04:32:45 AM
Interesting times...

Honestly, I wish there was just one console, powered by IBM and Toshiba, with most of the competition lying on the software/entertainment end of things. Make it a closed, but slightly restricted system like PC laptops have. Let any manufacturer build one (ala 3DO), which in turn, would provide another level of competition too.

Hell, I wouldn't mind if MS provided the OS.


Title: Re: 360 outsells Wii for XMas
Post by: Trippy on January 12, 2007, 04:49:54 AM
Yes, Microsoft by achieving total dominance in the desktop OS, office suite software, and browser market (not that browsers generate any direct revenue) in the territories that matter have basically stuck the company into neutral since there's nowhere for the company to go except downwards:

(http://chart.finance.yahoo.com/c/my/m/msft)

Any attempt to enter a new market and grow the business that way just means cutting into their incredibly high 30% profit margin (another advantage of being a monopoly) which is double or more than companies like Apple, Intel, and Cisco, and they have to face already entrenched competitors. Probably their only hope for significantly increasing shareholder value over the long term is to reinvent themselves akin to way IBM turned itself into a service company. They made some noise when they were waging the first browser war about turning into an Internet company but clearly that is not in their best interest since that marginalizes the OS and office apps as we are seeing now with the rise of Web-enabled applications that can replace most of the common functionality of desktop apps.


Title: Re: 360 outsells Wii for XMas
Post by: Trippy on January 12, 2007, 04:59:55 AM
As a long time Apple user, current owner of 2 new Apple machines, an iPod and a Airport to go station as well as a shareholder, I agree - but Apple is largely irrelevant at this scale, for now anyway. Times may change.
Apple may just be a pimple on Microsoft's butt when it comes to OS market share but Apple is actually 1/4 the market cap value of MSFT, thanks to their rising stock price, and their P/E is significantly higher (about double) meaning investors predict far more medium term growth for them than they do for Microsoft.


Title: Re: 360 outsells Wii for XMas
Post by: stray on January 12, 2007, 05:03:24 AM
They made some noise when they were waging the first browser war about turning into an Internet company but clearly that is not in their best interest since that marginalizes the OS and office apps as we are seeing now with the rise of Web-enabled applications that can replace most of the common functionality of desktop apps.


That "Internet company" thing is still in place. It's one of things that kind of turns me off about the 360 (The game console itself is neat. Ballmer's musings about it are not).

"Live" is their new brand name. Whether that be search engines, MSN, .NET, connected Zunes, Vista, XBox Live, IPTV, etc..


Title: Re: 360 outsells Wii for XMas
Post by: Trippy on January 12, 2007, 05:12:05 AM
They made some noise when they were waging the first browser war about turning into an Internet company but clearly that is not in their best interest since that marginalizes the OS and office apps as we are seeing now with the rise of Web-enabled applications that can replace most of the common functionality of desktop apps.
That "Internet company" thing is still in place. It's one of things that kind of turns me off about the 360 (The game console itself is neat. Ballmer's musings about it are not).

"Live" is their new brand name. Whether that be search engines, MSN, .NET, connected Zunes, Vista, XBox Live, IPTV, etc..
You can't use a Web browser on Xbox cause that would destroy their OS market (we've talked about this before) and most of that other crap is Windows dependent. Other companies that are building Internet applications don't care what OS you are running on as long as you have a modern Web browser and they are not typically paying a MS tax to develop and run them -- e.g. eschewing things like .NET for Open Source development solutions and deploying on non-MS OSes.


Title: Re: 360 outsells Wii for XMas
Post by: Trippy on January 12, 2007, 05:35:03 AM
Sony on the other hand is not only extremely mismanaged, but they have a fundamental business divide that is causing massive infighting. As a huge content producer they need to be proponents of DRM and standardized media. As a huge consumer electronics manufacturer they need to supply the consumer with the products they want. It's a source of massive conflict internally and coupled with their lame duck management is killing the company. Add the not invented here issue you mention and it becomes lethal.

Interesting times...
Sony's content divisions are actually a small portion of the company -- about 14% of their overall revenue -- and electronics, which doesn't include games, dwarfs everything else revenue-wise, though not profit-wise. Unfortunately by promoting Howard "I love DRM" Stringer to the CEO position they've basically told the world that they are content company and are acting as such when in fact they are not.


Title: Re: 360 outsells Wii for XMas
Post by: stray on January 12, 2007, 05:41:27 AM
Back to sales, here's some interesting data (btw, should we just dub this the official console war thread? :P):

NPD info through Kotaku (http://kotaku.com/gaming/npd/npd-and-the--nextgen-launch-winner-is-228191.php)

Comparing launch periods, the PS3 launch period has pretty much equaled the 360's (PS3 = 687k, 360 = 607k). The Wii kicked ass with 1.1 million.

However, the 360 outsold (http://kotaku.com/gaming/december/npd-360-beats-wii-ps3-in-december-228212.php) both the Wii and PS3 last December. But was topped by the DS and PS2 (with the PSP coming in a close 4th).

360 = 1.1 million
Wii = 604,200
PS3 = 490, 700
DS = 1.6 million
PS2 = 1.4 million
PSP = 953, 200

Turns out Sony didn't do too bad overall, and wasn't too far behind the Wii in December (surprises me).

SCEA total figures (http://kotaku.com/gaming/sony/scea-we-dominated-december-228225.php) in December probably kicked them back in a comfortable position as well.

2.8 million units of hardware, 22.4 million software, 6.9 million peripherals, making up to 1.6 billion dollars in December alone.


Title: Re: 360 outsells Wii for XMas
Post by: Jeff Kelly on January 12, 2007, 06:01:54 AM
Those numbers don't seem right to me but what do I know ;-).

What's interesting though is the fact that the Wii has sold 1,8 Million units since launch while the 360 has sold 2 million units for the christmas season.

That should bring the 360 to about 6 million units sold since launch which means that the Wii now has sold nearly 1/3 as much as the 360 has, quite impressive.


Title: Re: 360 outsells Wii for XMas
Post by: stray on January 12, 2007, 06:04:37 AM
Those numbers don't seem right to me but what do I know ;-).

Well, NDP only tracks US sales, so it may or may not mean nothing in the bigger picture. You could say the 360 outsold the Wii because the crowd here is different, or that people couldn't find a Wii or PS3 and went for a 360 instead. /shrug ;)


Title: Re: 360 outsells Wii for XMas
Post by: Jeff Kelly on January 12, 2007, 06:08:13 AM
Well, NDP only tracks US sales

Ah, that explains it.


Title: Re: 360 outsells Wii for XMas
Post by: Big Gulp on January 12, 2007, 07:22:20 AM
What's interesting though is the fact that the Wii has sold 1,8 Million units since launch while the 360 has sold 2 million units for the christmas season.

Not really.  It's (relatively) inexpensive, it's got a fresh new control mechanism, and it caught the right amount of holiday hype.  It was in the right place at the right time.

Does the Wii have legs, however?  I doubt it.  The 360 and PS3 most definitely have a longer lifespan ahead of them, but I have a feeling that the Wii is going to eventually be a big cause of buyer's remorse because it's going to look very, very dated.  I could be wrong, I never would have predicted that the DS would pick up like it has, but I think the handheld market is very different from the console market.


Title: Re: 360 outsells Wii for XMas
Post by: stray on January 12, 2007, 08:05:51 AM
Hmm...

I'm wondering how accurate those NDP statements are now. Should I have posted that? Didn't realize a lot of retailers aren't tracked by them (the biggest being Best Buy. Of all things. CompUSA just announced they would provide data to them this week, so they aren't included in that report either). Looks like Nintendo is contesting the numbers, saying they shipped well over that. Sony, as was pointed out earlier, shipped a million. Doesn't seem likely that 300,000 PS3's are just sitting on shelves (though some are, I know).


Title: Re: 360 outsells Wii for XMas
Post by: stray on January 12, 2007, 08:34:15 AM
Does the Wii have legs, however?  I doubt it.  The 360 and PS3 most definitely have a longer lifespan ahead of them, but I have a feeling that the Wii is going to eventually be a big cause of buyer's remorse because it's going to look very, very dated.  I could be wrong, I never would have predicted that the DS would pick up like it has, but I think the handheld market is very different from the console market.

I'm starting to rethink that position. Look at the PS2. Still the best selling console (With a total of 110 million sold overall. What the hell?). If anything, the Wii might pick up it's steam as the console for cheap ass gamers and parents (joke) sooner or later.


Title: Re: 360 outsells Wii for XMas
Post by: Roac on January 12, 2007, 09:31:12 AM
I'm starting to rethink that position. Look at the PS2. Still the best selling console (With a total of 110 million sold overall. What the hell?). If anything, the Wii might pick up it's steam as the console for cheap ass gamers and parents (joke) sooner or later.

Yes.  The graphics on a PS2 are nice, and don't improve much with a PS3 without HD.  It's also about 1/5 the cost and has a HUGE library of games.  I bought one for my step-father this past Christmas, for tihs reason.  He won't buy anything for himself, isn't a graphics whore by any means, but loves shooters (esp WWII stuff).  He plays very little, but does enjoy when he does.  So I can get that, and there's easily over a dozen games for him to pick from.   The Wii has slightly better graphics than the PS2, a control scheme that kicks ass, and games that are fun for casual gamers like that.  What it lacks at the moment is a large library, but that's comming, and an equivalent price point (250 > 130, but it's not too far off, not like the 360/PS3).

What Nintendo has done is to nearly monopolize the casual gamer market, and position themselves as a very solid contender for second console in serious gamer livingrooms.  The 360 and PS3 are pushing hard to be out on the cutting edge, which isn't where most people want to be, but that is where the potential to get mindshare on future trends lies.  Whatever the media center future might be, both are trying very hard to get ahold of it and are willing to front billions and put off profit for years to get there.  Their gamble is that HD, downloadable multimedia, and other integration stuffs aren't mainstream yet and won't be for some time; but it will be at some point, and damnit, they want to own it.  If one or both of them guess right then in 3-4 years they could be rolling in cash, but it'll take them that long to find out.


Title: Re: 360 outsells Wii for XMas
Post by: HaemishM on January 12, 2007, 12:03:01 PM
What's interesting though is the fact that the Wii has sold 1,8 Million units since launch while the 360 has sold 2 million units for the christmas season.

Not really.  It's (relatively) inexpensive, it's got a fresh new control mechanism, and it caught the right amount of holiday hype.  It was in the right place at the right time.

Does the Wii have legs, however?  I doubt it.  The 360 and PS3 most definitely have a longer lifespan ahead of them, but I have a feeling that the Wii is going to eventually be a big cause of buyer's remorse because it's going to look very, very dated.

I think that depends on what your definition of "has legs" is. Are you thinking a 5-year life cycle for the Wii? If so, you're right, it probably doesn't have legs. If you think more along a 2-3 year lifecycle, you're wrong. The Wii is a transitional system. In 2-3 years, you'll see Nintendo release a hi-def system, when more homes have them and the cost to develop for hi-def is lower. Meanwhile, that 2-3 year period is going to be ALL PROFIT, because they lose no money on the systems themselves. In fact, they make a profit. With the DS being a profit machine, 2-3 years down the line, Nintendo could have a decent war chest from which to take risks with HD, which won't be nearly the risk it is now.


Title: Re: 360 outsells Wii for XMas
Post by: Murgos on January 12, 2007, 03:36:04 PM
Supposedly, the 20gig PS3 cost $804 to make. It costs $840 to make the 60 gig model. I'll just set the median price at $820, and the median retail price at $550. So for every console sold, they're losing $270.

etc...

This math is borked.  The cost of production is amortized across the life of the product.  The more they sell they cheaper they are to make.

Pretending like you have a clue as to what the 5th million PS3 sold costs to make is asinine.

if it cost a billion dollars to design and build the production faciities and they sell 1 million PS-3s thats 1000 dollars a ps-3.  2 million?  500 bucks.  3 million?  $333.  (more because of operating costs and etc... but you get the picture)

It's actually not even that straightforward because the fab plants aren't making PS-3's 100% of the time.  Their costs are defrayed across all the products they produce.

I'm really getting sick of all the this company lost this and that company lost that for every x sold.  It's BS.  It's just not the truth of the way these companies work.


Title: Re: 360 outsells Wii for XMas
Post by: WindupAtheist on January 12, 2007, 03:50:02 PM
(http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e121/GrimDysart/threadfaga.jpg)


Title: Re: 360 outsells Wii for XMas
Post by: stray on January 12, 2007, 06:55:26 PM
I'm really getting sick of all the this company lost this and that company lost that for every x sold.  It's BS.  It's just not the truth of the way these companies work.

If you can, then provide better numbers. I'm all for it. :) I do not claim to be Sony's bookkeeper. I was only throwing out estimates and ballpark numbers. All I know is that those prices are already supposed to reflect bulk costs.

Start here (http://www.isuppli.com/news/default.asp?id=6919) and work your magic. If you're really sick about it.


Title: Re: 360 outsells Wii for XMas
Post by: Murgos on January 12, 2007, 09:14:00 PM
Did you really just post a link to a page with a chart full of made up numbers and then tell me to refute their made up numbers?


Title: Re: 360 outsells Wii for XMas
Post by: Trippy on January 12, 2007, 09:23:59 PM
Did you really just post a link to a page with a chart full of made up numbers and then tell me to refute their made up numbers?
I'll save you the trouble:

http://forums.f13.net/index.php?topic=8671.msg245062#msg245062


Title: Re: 360 outsells Wii for XMas
Post by: stray on January 12, 2007, 09:26:21 PM
Did you really just post a link to a page with a chart full of made up numbers and then tell me to refute their made up numbers?

They are the same numbers being spread about everywhere, from tech sites to brokerage firms. Pardon the fuck out of me. It's the best we've got.

Besides, I didn't ask you to refute anything. I asked you to give better estimates from those numbers, with mega bulk pricing in mind. Nothing more. I asked you to contribute.


Title: Re: 360 outsells Wii for XMas
Post by: Murgos on January 12, 2007, 09:30:17 PM
I originally added this as an edit to my post above but I'll stick it here since you already posted.

I can buy a 20 GB HD off ebay brand new in the box for 5 bucks and you really expect me to believe that Sony paid $43.00?  Or that a 400w Power Supply which I personally can make for about $6.50 with parts from radio shack costs Sony $37.00 to make internally?

Edit:  Even better.  A cooling-slash-mounting cage for $22.00?  I haven't taken apart a PS-3 yet but unless they mill that from a 20 lb billit of aluminum it doesn't cost more than 25 cents to make.


Title: Re: 360 outsells Wii for XMas
Post by: stray on January 12, 2007, 09:42:20 PM
I was going to say that article was written two years ago, but nope, it was in November.

So yeah, the hard drive's are iffy. Though they are SATA. Not sure about the RPM though.


Title: Re: 360 outsells Wii for XMas
Post by: Trippy on January 12, 2007, 09:54:43 PM
Those are 2.5" drives but the price is still wrong. I can buy a 40 GB 2.5" drive for $45 on Newegg.com. There's no way they are paying that much to Seagate for a 20 GB drive, or a 60 GB for that matter ($53 on Newegg).


Title: Re: 360 outsells Wii for XMas
Post by: stray on January 12, 2007, 10:01:22 PM
Do you think the total cost could be cut down as much as 30% then?


Title: Re: 360 outsells Wii for XMas
Post by: Trippy on January 12, 2007, 10:25:13 PM
Do you think the total cost could be cut down as much as 30% then?
There are two huge problems with the iSuppli estimate. The first is they have that $148.00 for "Other Components and Manufacturing" without explaining WTF that is. It's like they couldn't jack up their estimate high enough so they just put in a random misc. category and padded it so that it matched the number they were trying to get to.

The second related huge problem is the motherboard comparison between the PS3 and Xbox 360. They have the Xbox 360 at $204 and yet somehow the PS3's motherboard is 2.5X more expensive at $500. Now I'll grant them that the Cell is more expensive to make and there are a few extra widgets on the motherboard but 2.5X? That's just making stuff up again. So let's say the motherboard is $350 (basically tossing out that Other category from above) and let's equalize some of the other price differences between the Xbox 360 and the PS3 by getting rid of that cooling mounting cage and fixing that manufacturing cost (umm why is the PS3 6X more expensive to manufacture?). We will leave the case costs alone cause we know that that Spider-Man PS3 logo costs a ton of money to stick on there and of course black plastic costs a ton more money to make. That takes the 20GB PS3 down to $600.95.

So if you assume their Xbox 360 estimate is reasonably accurate the price difference between the two comes down to the extra cost for the Blu-Ray drive (+$100) and the more expensive Cell and slightly fancier hardware (+$150 + some extra). And that makes sense. $800 does not make sense.

BTW, pulling numbers (almost) completely out of my ass a year ago I came up with $615.00 (http://forums.f13.net/index.php?topic=5993.msg160494#msg160494). Does that make me an expert too?


Title: Re: 360 outsells Wii for XMas
Post by: stray on January 12, 2007, 10:30:34 PM
If that's the case, then it doesn't seem too far fetched to say they would be profitting off the 60GB model within a year.


Title: Re: 360 outsells Wii for XMas
Post by: Calantus on January 13, 2007, 01:47:50 AM
Interesting times...

Honestly, I wish there was just one console, powered by IBM and Toshiba, with most of the competition lying on the software/entertainment end of things. Make it a closed, but slightly restricted system like PC laptops have. Let any manufacturer build one (ala 3DO), which in turn, would provide another level of competition too.

Hell, I wouldn't mind if MS provided the OS.

I would love for this to happen. 3 different consoles that all do roughly the same thing, their main difference being who gets paid and who gets what exclusive game (less relevant these days) is getting a little old. A solution halfway between what we have in the PC market, and how the console market is now would be perfect. One box needed and you get to customize your box but there's no huge change to be had (so no nvidia vs ATi in graphics cards goin on), but the fact that there are options means nobody can afford to put out a real shitty part.


Title: Re: 360 outsells Wii for XMas
Post by: Stephen Zepp on January 14, 2007, 04:02:36 PM
I originally added this as an edit to my post above but I'll stick it here since you already posted.

I can buy a 20 GB HD off ebay brand new in the box for 5 bucks and you really expect me to believe that Sony paid $43.00?  Or that a 400w Power Supply which I personally can make for about $6.50 with parts from radio shack costs Sony $37.00 to make internally?

Edit:  Even better.  A cooling-slash-mounting cage for $22.00?  I haven't taken apart a PS-3 yet but unless they mill that from a 20 lb billit of aluminum it doesn't cost more than 25 cents to make.

Not trying to be insulting here, but there are hundreds of costs factored in to buying, storing, transporting, inventorying, tracking, and managing hardware at the numbers that large scale distribution adds to the base cost of items.

Tell me this: can you buy 500,000 $5 20 GB HD's off of ebay in time for next quarter's production cycle--not to mention transport them to the production facilities, keep them in climate controlled storage until the production line is up to speed for that phase, and insure them for when one of the tractor-trailers transporting them is driven by a drunk and goes off a cliff?

I'm not defending the prices, but the comparison is simply not valid.


Title: Re: 360 outsells Wii for XMas
Post by: Murgos on January 14, 2007, 04:51:41 PM
Don't be stupid.  Of course not.  But if I can buy 20 $5 drives that are brand new then I can arrainge to recieve 2,000,000 from various suppliers over a spread of a year for $15 ea or there abouts.

Not to call you an asshole, asshole, but if retailers are carrying the part for ~$40 USD then there is a good likelyhood that they are paying approx 1/2 -1 /3rd that price from their supplier.

Anyway, as you obviously missed it, here is the point:

QUOTING RETAIL NUMBERS FOR THE PRICE OF PARTS FOR A MAJOR MANUFACTURER LIKE SONY MEANS THE ENTIRE COLUMN WAS BULLSHIT.


Title: Re: 360 outsells Wii for XMas
Post by: Stephen Zepp on January 14, 2007, 05:00:54 PM
Don't be stupid.  Of course not.  But if I can buy 20 $5 drives that are brand new then I can arrainge to recieve 2,000,000 from various suppliers over a spread of a year for $15 ea or there abouts.

Not to call you an asshole, asshole, but if retailers are carrying the part for ~$40 USD then there is a good likelyhood that they are paying approx 1/2 -1 /3rd that price from their supplier.

Anyway, as you obviously missed it, here is the point:

QUOTING RETAIL NUMBERS FOR THE PRICE OF PARTS FOR A MAJOR MANUFACTURER LIKE SONY MEANS THE ENTIRE COLUMN WAS BULLSHIT.


Ok, you come on board with an example of how you can cut a deal on a retail price using ebay on a single item, compare it to mass production and distribution of a game console (a completely strawman argument), I call you out on it politely, and I'm the asshole? I even said straight out that I'm not defending the prices--just calling you out on a rediculous argument :)

I guess "asshole" was the best you could come up with when someone calls you out (you know, as opposed to proving your analogy was appropriate or something) sorry to hear that.



Title: Re: 360 outsells Wii for XMas
Post by: Murgos on January 14, 2007, 05:18:32 PM
You are absolutely being an asshole.  You're not attacking my argument, you even mentioned that specifically you were not, you are instead attacking a price-point.  You are being a troll.


Edit:  P.S.  The price of a hard drive is indeed of importance when discussing hard drive prices.  Been drinking tonight?  Seahawks fan maybe?  A little down about the loss?  You know what to do, an hero status awaits.


Title: Re: 360 outsells Wii for XMas
Post by: WindupAtheist on January 14, 2007, 05:25:46 PM
I'm going to need a bigger chart.


Title: Re: 360 outsells Wii for XMas
Post by: Murgos on January 14, 2007, 05:28:44 PM
How about one of them there nifty 3-D charts?


Title: Re: 360 outsells Wii for XMas
Post by: Stephen Zepp on January 14, 2007, 05:31:23 PM
You are absolutely being an asshole.  You're not attacking my argument, you even mentioned that specifically you were not, you are instead attacking a price-point.  You are being a troll.


Edit:  P.S.  The price of a hard drive is indeed of importance when discussing hard drive prices.  Been drinking tonight?  Seahawks fan maybe?  A little down about the loss?  You know what to do, an hero status awaits.

Whatever dude. Seems you cannot read. My entire post was that your analogy was rediculous (to think that a price you could drum up on ebay for a single unit had anything to do with mainline production/distribution).

I guess I'd rather be a troll than an idiot who posts something completely off the mark as if it were valid and pertinent to the discussion. Who the hell cares what price you can find on ebay? Find me one hardware manufacturer that uses retail purchases on ebay in their pricing mechanisms for supplying a production line, and then maybe your post has some merit.

It's rediculous to even bring up ebay in the first place, much less what one person can find one deal on anywhere when comparing to production costs.

SURE a wholesale price is going to be different than what appears to be quoted retail prices in the post you were trying to rebut...but then why didn't you post wholesale prices? You freaking posted EBAY.



Title: Re: 360 outsells Wii for XMas
Post by: Murgos on January 14, 2007, 05:41:48 PM
So, what your saying is that you don't like my source for a hard drive price?  It's a price, yes?  For a hard drive, right?  A source than can be checked by other people?

Sony might or might not not be shopping there but it serves to show a price range that is not what was quoted in that article and as far as it's worth the price of a hard drive on ebay is 1,000,000x more valid a number than the entirely unattributed one the article pulled out of it's butt.  I never claimed to be showing what Sony IS paying all I was showing is that they probably aren't paying $43.00 a unit for 20GB HDD's.


Title: Re: 360 outsells Wii for XMas
Post by: Stephen Zepp on January 14, 2007, 06:58:26 PM
So, what your saying is that you don't like my source for a hard drive price?  It's a price, yes?  For a hard drive, right?  A source than can be checked by other people?

Sony might or might not not be shopping there but it serves to show a price range that is not what was quoted in that article and as far as it's worth the price of a hard drive on ebay is 1,000,000x more valid a number than the entirely unattributed one the article pulled out of it's butt.  I never claimed to be showing what Sony IS paying all I was showing is that they probably aren't paying $43.00 a unit for 20GB HDD's.

No, sorry, but the price of a single hard drive on ebay is exactly as valid to the discussion as the entirely unattributed one the article pulled out of it's butt--they both have absolutely zero validity to a manufacturer/distributor.


Title: Re: 360 outsells Wii for XMas
Post by: stray on January 14, 2007, 09:56:48 PM
BTW, though I admit that you make a good point Murgos, $5 is a bit cheap. They're not old ass hard drives like that. They're 2.5" SATA. Apparently, the PS3 60GB version is using a Seagate Momentus. Not exactly dirt cheap.

Not saying that Sony pays big money, but I highly doubt they're paying $5 either. Trying to compare those hard drives with some random 20GB IDE on eBay isn't being helpful.

[EDIT]

Seagate Momentus 5400.2 ST96812A 60GB 5400 RPM ATA-6 Notebook Hard Drive (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16822148088)

I believe this may be the PS3 hard drive in question ($63.99 on NewEgg).

For comparison, you can get regular 3.5 Seagates, at larger sizes and higher RPM, for a lower price.

For example: Seagate Barracuda 7200.9 ST3802110A 80GB 7200 RPM IDE Ultra ATA100 Hard Drive - OEM (http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16822148095) ($43.99)


Title: Re: 360 outsells Wii for XMas
Post by: Velorath on January 15, 2007, 01:01:47 AM
Of course if Sony was constructing PS3's using only parts they found on Ebay, that would explain their initial problems with manufacturing enough for launch.


Title: Re: 360 outsells Wii for XMas
Post by: stray on January 15, 2007, 01:24:33 AM
On a sidenote, one could install a bigger Seagate (biggest is 160GB) without a hitch. Apparently.

Damn thing is $160 bucks though (Look at that, a gig for a dollar. More than twice the price of a regular 3.5 desktop drive).


Also, I just finally got some use out of the memory stick slot (I might be the only one).


Title: Re: 360 outsells Wii for XMas
Post by: Murgos on January 15, 2007, 08:51:16 AM
No, sorry, but the price of a single hard drive on ebay is exactly as valid to the discussion as the entirely unattributed one the article pulled out of it's butt--they both have absolutely zero validity to a manufacturer/distributor.

Look, the strawman that you are positing, the one that goes, "Murgos said that Sony purchases $5 hard drives from ebay to equip their PS-3s."  Is nothing I ever said anywhere anytime or in anyway.  I'm tired of this pointless troll that is not only tangential to the point but has no merit even on it's own grounds, let me know when you want to discuss something that I actually said or that is relevant to the article at hand.


Title: Re: 360 outsells Wii for XMas
Post by: Roac on January 15, 2007, 02:55:44 PM
Look, the strawman that you are positing, the one that goes, "Murgos said that Sony purchases $5 hard drives from ebay to equip their PS-3s."  Is nothing I ever said anywhere anytime or in anyway.  I'm tired of this pointless troll that is not only tangential to the point but has no merit even on it's own grounds, let me know when you want to discuss something that I actually said or that is relevant to the article at hand.

No, what you said is that you can buy a drive for $5 off ebay, so Sony shouldn't be spending $43 for one.  Stephen pointed out that buying one drive off ebay is not at all similar to buying 500,000 drives from a manufacturer which must also include using those drives in a produciton line, warehousing both the drive and end product, shipping of drive and end product, etc etc.  He pointed out that your comparison was a joke.  Guess what:  it was a joke.  Nevermind he was just trying to have a conversation that didn't warrant your flaming his ass over it. 


Title: Re: 360 outsells Wii for XMas
Post by: Strazos on January 15, 2007, 03:28:11 PM
I still think that $43 figure is a bit high. I mean, don't prices usually go down when you buy in such bulk?


Title: Re: 360 outsells Wii for XMas
Post by: Roac on January 15, 2007, 04:14:48 PM
For some things.  The problem with buying massive amounts of a product is that there are only so many suppliers you can go to, which heavily limits supply (this is unlike what "buy in bulk" means to an individual consumer).  Further, few of them are willing to sacrifice regular revenue streams for a limited offer; if you're shipping product through regular means now, why would you disrupt those relationships for a short-mid term deal?  Doing so could be hurtful in the long run.


Title: Re: 360 outsells Wii for XMas
Post by: Trippy on January 15, 2007, 05:20:29 PM
For some things.  The problem with buying massive amounts of a product is that there are only so many suppliers you can go to, which heavily limits supply (this is unlike what "buy in bulk" means to an individual consumer).  Further, few of them are willing to sacrifice regular revenue streams for a limited offer; if you're shipping product through regular means now, why would you disrupt those relationships for a short-mid term deal?  Doing so could be hurtful in the long run.
There's no shortage of manufacturers of 2.5" laptop drives. The fact that Sony went with Seagate rather than Toshiba, their partner of many components in the Playstation line, implies that Sony had the luxury of shopping around. The disk drive market is also very competitive. As long as you are making some profit selling drives to Sony for the PS3 I don't see why you wouldn't jump at that chance. The PS2 has sold over 100 million units but let's say the PS3 only sells 40 million units over say 4 years. If Seagate or whoever is making even only $1 net profit per drive sold that's $10 million straight to the bottom line each year for 4 years which in the case of Seagate is ~%2 of their net income.


Title: Re: 360 outsells Wii for XMas
Post by: Murgos on January 15, 2007, 06:13:03 PM
Look, the strawman that you are positing, the one that goes, "Murgos said that Sony purchases $5 hard drives from ebay to equip their PS-3s."  Is nothing I ever said anywhere anytime or in anyway.  I'm tired of this pointless troll that is not only tangential to the point but has no merit even on it's own grounds, let me know when you want to discuss something that I actually said or that is relevant to the article at hand.

No, what you said is that you can buy a drive for $5 off ebay, so Sony shouldn't be spending $43 for one.  Stephen pointed out that buying one drive off ebay is not at all similar to buying 500,000 drives from a manufacturer which must also include using those drives in a produciton line, warehousing both the drive and end product, shipping of drive and end product, etc etc.  He pointed out that your comparison was a joke.  Guess what:  it was a joke.  Nevermind he was just trying to have a conversation that didn't warrant your flaming his ass over it. 

Last time.  If drives are available for $5 dollars then no one is buying them for 9x the price.  Don't stress yourself trying to add inferences I did not make, he was trolling then which is why I flamed him and you are trolling now.


Title: Re: 360 outsells Wii for XMas
Post by: Roac on January 15, 2007, 06:54:28 PM
Last time.  If drives are available for $5 dollars then no one is buying them for 9x the price.  Don't stress yourself trying to add inferences I did not make, he was trolling then which is why I flamed him and you are trolling now.

Soon as you locate a million or more identical drives on ebay for ~$5 apiece, then you would be closer to being right.  At the moment however, there is one with similar specs at around $13 opened/used (it doesn't detail the condition), and half a dozen at over $65 (buy it now only).  The meaning here is that you CAN'T buy new drives at this price, sans one or two anecdotal listings on ebay.  Which does jack and shit for a company needing many, many times that amount.


Title: Re: 360 outsells Wii for XMas
Post by: Murgos on January 16, 2007, 01:00:44 PM
At the moment however, there is one with similar specs at around $13 opened/used (it doesn't detail the condition), and half a dozen at over $65 (buy it now only).  The meaning here is that you CAN'T buy new drives at this price, sans one or two anecdotal listings on ebay.

Sony probably bought them all.