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f13.net General Forums => MMOG Discussion => Topic started by: Hutch on December 23, 2014, 02:30:33 PM



Title: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Hutch on December 23, 2014, 02:30:33 PM
Play 2 Crush (lol) (http://www.play2crush.com/)

Read the press release (http://cache.nebula.phx3.secureserver.net/obj/Q0E4Mjg3RjhEOEY4QTFCMEU0Qzg6MGU2NGJiNjBhZDE4Yjk3YmM4YmYyMmRmN2FkYjFiZTI6Ojo6)

The names Gordon Walton and J. Todd Coleman are probably more familiar names to others here than they are to me. They have voluntarily listed Shadowbane, UO, Wizard 101, SWToR and SWG on their collective resume. I played the trial versions of Wizard 101 and ToR, but haven't played the others.

Their pitch gives the impression that they believe there's a market out there for players who want risk, skill, and open PvP in an MMO setting. I'm here to tell you they're wrong. But, I am tingly with anticipation for the inevitable popcorn festival.


Edited to change the awesome original thread title, so that the subsequently announced actual name is in there. You're welcome  :why_so_serious:

The original title came close to taking up the size limit for titles, so I just changed the whole thing. Original title: "Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor."


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: shiznitz on December 23, 2014, 02:53:08 PM
Those kind of players are out there, but only if they have a game that will feed them sheep to slaughter. Unfortunately for them, the sheep know better nowadays.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Shannow on December 23, 2014, 03:18:18 PM
The underlying game itself better be damn good so that you get enough PVErs to support the PVP pop. There IS a player base somewhere for a game like this but it's probably to small to be profitable.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Fordel on December 23, 2014, 03:33:21 PM
There are people who claim they want this kind of game, but never show up once this kind of game exists. They don't actually want this kind of game, they want the 'street cred' that saying you want this type of game supposedly gives... at least in their minds.  :why_so_serious:


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Threash on December 23, 2014, 04:22:08 PM
No they really do want that kind of game until they realize they are not that good, then they claim the game sucks.  The kind of game they actually want is God of War with the endless waves of cannon fodder being actual people.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Threash on December 23, 2014, 04:24:41 PM
I am fairly sure the shields at the bottom of the page were all from shadowbane.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: apocrypha on December 23, 2014, 04:29:38 PM
Isn't this the pitch that hmm... what was it called, Darkfall, made? Haven't we been round this merry-go-round before?


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: HaemishM on December 23, 2014, 04:30:36 PM
And thus speaketh the abyss... "Come join us. We all float down here."


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Falconeer on December 23, 2014, 04:31:56 PM
Yes, they are from Shadowbane and there is definitely a market for a new Shadowbane. It's a tiny one but it's there. The problem is, how much is it gonna cost to make it not suck?
The trick is to be able to make a game for that niche that will earn more than it'll cost and it doesn't suck. Players who love those game don't necessarily care about extreme graphics or animation so I think they (or anyone else) could absolutely make it work. IN THEORY. Hell, take stupid Darkfall: it did work and had a moderate success, that kind a players DID show up. And it's still alive five years later. Even Mortal Online is still alive after four years. So, can these people make a Shadowbane/UO/Eve-like game on a tight budget? That's the thing.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Merusk on December 23, 2014, 04:40:21 PM
The hilarity comes in when the reality of player numbers at beta/ launch hits the hype of marketing and VC pitches.

Just once there needs to be a single well-coded and well-managed game in this genre that releases to shut the hype down forever. Each one so far has had the excuses of "code was shit" or "company is incompetent" in various combinations.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Threash on December 23, 2014, 04:46:41 PM
The thing is Shadowbane WAS incredibly fun when it worked.  It didn't work very often so it was small islands of joy surrounded by seas of misery.  If it had been well coded and well managed it would be seen at worse as a minor success.  I never played Daoc but from what everyone says it used to be pretty solid and loads of pvp fun also.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Venkman on December 23, 2014, 05:04:26 PM
Huh.

But I don't know if they're leaning SB like play2crush. Shit, I don't even want to think how long ago Ubi picked up Wolfpack, and SB hasn't been a thing since even before it shut down. The more relevant stuff in Coleman's record is really Wizard101 (fantastic, for what it is) and Pirate101 (which I haven't played).

No idea what kind of game they're making. However, I highly down it's a semi open world territorial fighting persistent state world. There's, what, 100 people left in the world that want that style of PvP but not so much they're not already in DOTA2 or LoL? :grin:


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Falconeer on December 23, 2014, 05:13:40 PM
Seriously, are we going back to LOL U NO HAVE 500k USERS WOW HAS 6M U FAIL!?

These kind of games all piled together have maybe 20k, 40k users. What's wrong with those numbers? It is a NICHE. If they can make something elegant and functional with a budget aimed at those numbers, like the previously mentioned games which are arguably terrible and still are alive, they can do well and eventually expand the niche.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: pxib on December 23, 2014, 05:51:57 PM
The kind of game they actually want is God of War with the endless waves of cannon fodder being actual people.
Yes, and I still think somebody's going to figure out how to do it some day. Mostly a matter of making it fun for the cannon fodder.

In the meantime:
Quote
Allies. Enemies. Alliances. Betrayal. Risk. Conquest. To compete with THOUSANDS of other players for a chance to claim the THRONE.
This is dumb. Very few people actually want this. We only think we do because the stories in our head put us on the conquering side instead of the "nervously mining ore in a moderately risky sector" side. Play2FarmResources4PeopleWhoCrush hasn't got quite the marketing cache, even if it is a real niche.

It'd be a bigger niche if anybody knew how to make fun, high-latency online combat at that scale. Planetside's probably as close as we've come, and I wouldn't want that world even slightly more persistent.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Ghambit on December 23, 2014, 09:32:41 PM
Seriously, are we going back to LOL U NO HAVE 500k USERS WOW HAS 6M U FAIL!?

These kind of games all piled together have maybe 20k, 40k users. What's wrong with those numbers? It is a NICHE. If they can make something elegant and functional with a budget aimed at those numbers, like the previously mentioned games which are arguably terrible and still are alive, they can do well and eventually expand the niche.

This.
Recall, WW2O has been consistently profitable, and it doesn't get much more niche than that.   That game still operates just fine today with plenty of support and iteration (though I disprove of Area Ops).

A very great many have said if they'd reskinned WW2O to medieval-fantasy re-added back in more consequence (either personal or territorial) that it'd be the perfect game.  I tend to agree with that statement.  If you gave me effin dragonlancers and multicrewed war elephants, I'd drop out of school.

Recall, all previous attempts with established IPs (warhammer?) have dumbed-down the design with disastrous results.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: HaemishM on December 24, 2014, 12:47:25 PM
These kind of games all piled together have maybe 20k, 40k users. What's wrong with those numbers?

The budget required to make the kind of game those very particular little snowflakes require is not profitable at 40k users. I'm not sure there's an MMOG out there now that could make a profit with those numbers.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: sam, an eggplant on December 24, 2014, 12:57:19 PM
Darkfall is still running just fine, charging a $15/month subscription fee.  I have no idea how many paying players the game has, but it's enough to sustain operations. Niche MMOs can work.

EVE is another great example. Completely sandbox, hardcore PvP, harsh loss penalties, and it's humming along quite nicely.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Soulflame on December 24, 2014, 08:49:30 PM
How many people PvP in EVE?

(The figures are hard to come by.  Best I could find with an admittedly short search was numbers that showed 9% of the playerbase had scored a kill in the last quarter.)


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Draegan on December 25, 2014, 11:41:08 AM
So many wrong people in this thread. Most of you think there is no audience for the second games but cause u u and your circle of fr into don't play it. It just reinforces your incorrect opinion.

There are a lot of people that will play a game like this. However, there aren't a lot of people who want to play a shitty game with this theme.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Soulflame on December 25, 2014, 12:20:19 PM
You're wrong.

UO was a long time ago.  The sheep can play something else.  Current college age kids play on their phones, or minecraft, but not MMOs.  The fans of Shadowbane have jobs and families now.

The audience for this sort of thing are the people who think they can be Lord Crush.  The problem being, of course, is that only 15% of the playerbase can be Lord Crush, which inevitably leads to the majority heading for the exits as they find out they aren't PvP winners.

I mean, you're free to dream of millions of people wanting to play an open world full PvP full loot MMO, but the reality is that very few people want this.  Or someone would have successfully filled that niche by now.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Falconeer on December 25, 2014, 12:43:36 PM
I mean, you're free to dream of millions of people wanting to play an open world full PvP full loot MMO, but the reality is that very few people want this.  Or someone would have successfully filled that niche by now.

Can you read? Where did anyone say millons? How is a niche ever dreaming of 'millions'? I, for example, mentioned 20k - 40k players above and I doubt Draegan was thinking much bigger than that. No Soulflame, YOU are wrong because you base your opinions on nothing but vague observations of what is popular among your group of friends, and what is talked about on the videogame info outlets you consider meaningful. Except none of that means shit when you are specifically talking about niche games made for a niche audience you clearly know nothing about. The "very few" you are talking about are more than enough to make a good product on these themes viable (different from WILDLY SUCCESSFUL), and that is, again, why some games of this kind still exist.

But you know what Soulflame, since you reeeeeally wanna talk millions, let me ask you something: DayZ -a game with full PvP and permadeath- sold 3 million copies of its ALPHA verson in a year. Now, if anyone pitched that idea to you three years ago, full PvP, full loot, permadeath, how many copies would you have predicted it could ever sell?

DayZ does not prove that there's a pool of 3 millions willing to play a new Shadowbane, but it proves that what you think you know about what people want is wrong.


There are a lot of people that will play a game like this. However, there aren't a lot of people who want to play a shitty game with this theme.

Perfectly said.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Threash on December 25, 2014, 12:57:23 PM
If there are enough people to keep that piece of shit Darkfall afloat then there are enough people for whatever this guys are making.  People love pvp, it is the consequences that make it niche.  And even then it is because they see stuff like "losing your inventory" and they think of their WoW inventory rather than the few cheap scrolls and repair money like it was in Shadowbane.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Brolan on December 25, 2014, 01:11:22 PM
Two ways this can work. 

1) you create NPCs who look like real players for the PvPers to feast on.  Have CS reps randomly express mock outrage after kills.

2) create a free to play experience that is compelling.  Then have paid players that can slaughter the freebies.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Soulflame on December 25, 2014, 01:59:06 PM
I mean, you're free to dream of millions of people wanting to play an open world full PvP full loot MMO, but the reality is that very few people want this.  Or someone would have successfully filled that niche by now.

Can you read? Where did anyone say millons? How is a niche ever dreaming of 'millions'? I, for example, mentioned 20k - 40k players above and I doubt Draegan was thinking much bigger than that. No Soulflame, YOU are wrong because you base your opinions on nothing but vague observations of what is popular among your group of friends, and what is talked about on the videogame info outlets you consider meaningful. Except none of that means shit when you are specifically talking about niche games made for a niche audience you clearly know nothing about. The "very few" you are talking about are more than enough to make a good product on these themes viable (different from WILDLY SUCCESSFUL), and that is, again, why some games of this kind still exist.

But you know what Soulflame, since you reeeeeally wanna talk millions, let me ask you something: DayZ -a game with full PvP and permadeath- sold 3 million copies of its ALPHA verson in a year. Now, if anyone pitched that idea to you three years ago, full PvP, full loot, permadeath, how many copies would you have predicted it could ever sell?

DayZ does not prove that there's a pool of 3 millions willing to play a new Shadowbane, but it proves that what you think you know about what people want is wrong.


There are a lot of people that will play a game like this. However, there aren't a lot of people who want to play a shitty game with this theme.

Perfectly said.

The score is:  16 years of me being right, and you being wrong.  Let's see how long this streak keeps going!

DayZ has a peak of 21k today:  http://store.steampowered.com/stats/  Let me know when they're willing to pay $15 a month for the privilege.  i.e. I wager this will never happen.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Malakili on December 25, 2014, 02:01:19 PM
No one will pay 15 dollars a month for anything anymore.

The whole discussion is stupid anyway.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Threash on December 25, 2014, 02:12:37 PM
I mean, you're free to dream of millions of people wanting to play an open world full PvP full loot MMO, but the reality is that very few people want this.  Or someone would have successfully filled that niche by now.

Can you read? Where did anyone say millons? How is a niche ever dreaming of 'millions'? I, for example, mentioned 20k - 40k players above and I doubt Draegan was thinking much bigger than that. No Soulflame, YOU are wrong because you base your opinions on nothing but vague observations of what is popular among your group of friends, and what is talked about on the videogame info outlets you consider meaningful. Except none of that means shit when you are specifically talking about niche games made for a niche audience you clearly know nothing about. The "very few" you are talking about are more than enough to make a good product on these themes viable (different from WILDLY SUCCESSFUL), and that is, again, why some games of this kind still exist.

But you know what Soulflame, since you reeeeeally wanna talk millions, let me ask you something: DayZ -a game with full PvP and permadeath- sold 3 million copies of its ALPHA verson in a year. Now, if anyone pitched that idea to you three years ago, full PvP, full loot, permadeath, how many copies would you have predicted it could ever sell?

DayZ does not prove that there's a pool of 3 millions willing to play a new Shadowbane, but it proves that what you think you know about what people want is wrong.


There are a lot of people that will play a game like this. However, there aren't a lot of people who want to play a shitty game with this theme.

Perfectly said.

The score is:  16 years of me being right, and you being wrong.  Let's see how long this streak keeps going!

DayZ has a peak of 21k today:  http://store.steampowered.com/stats/  Let me know when they're willing to pay $15 a month for the privilege.  i.e. I wager this will never happen.

You are the only one talking about millions of players paying 15 dollar subscriptions, congrats on being right about something absolutely nobody is arguing!


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Pennilenko on December 25, 2014, 02:23:22 PM

The score is:  16 years of me being right, and you being wrong.  Let's see how long this streak keeps going!

DayZ has a peak of 21k today:  http://store.steampowered.com/stats/  Let me know when they're willing to pay $15 a month for the privilege.  i.e. I wager this will never happen.

I think you are really missing the point that Draegan and Falc are making. Darkfall still has its doors open. EVE still has its doors open. That invalidates your opinion that there is no market for sub based full loot pvp games. A game with proper budgeting and management goals can survive quite nicely on 20 to 40k. The only caveat is that the game has to be high quality (as in not buggy or broken).

You need to quit reading past what people are saying in this thread.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Ginaz on December 25, 2014, 02:49:09 PM

The score is:  16 years of me being right, and you being wrong.  Let's see how long this streak keeps going!

DayZ has a peak of 21k today:  http://store.steampowered.com/stats/  Let me know when they're willing to pay $15 a month for the privilege.  i.e. I wager this will never happen.

I think you are really missing the point that Draegan and Falc are making. Darkfall still has its doors open. EVE still has its doors open. That invalidates your opinion that there is no market for sub based full loot pvp games. A game with proper budgeting and management goals can survive quite nicely on 20 to 40k. The only caveat is that the game has to be high quality (as in not buggy or broken).

You need to quit reading past what people are saying in this thread.

Eve is a non-factor in this discussion since the vast, vast majority of players chain themselves to Hi Sec space.  The open world, full loot pvp audience is a niche in a niche wrapped in another niche.  There simply isn't a large enough market for it for anyone other than a struggling indie company to make, which is why you tend to see only hot garbage like Darkfall and Mortal Online.  The type of players that want this type of game tend to be very vocal, which is why you see the amount of discussion about it on sites like this, which is incredibly disproportionate to the actual interest in full loot pvp.  Squeaky wheel gets the grease.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: tazelbain on December 25, 2014, 03:39:04 PM
i think some PvP+/PvP- hybrid could be a break out hit. Something like EvE with more dynamic PvP- areas and approachable theme/style. PvP+ alone is a fools errand.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: schild on December 25, 2014, 08:09:32 PM
NO


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: schild on December 25, 2014, 08:15:40 PM
I hope they're burning their own money on this.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: KallDrexx on December 25, 2014, 08:18:31 PM
The thing with Eve is it requires an extremely heavy balance of Pvp, Pve, and economic activity options.  It also took a while for it to get to that balance, and I don't believe they even understand how they got to that current balance.

The likelyhood of a game getting that right out of the gate is pretty low (especially one without a lot of funding) and there are too many options for players today that if they don't have the balance right people will leave (people stuck out Eve through the shitty early parts because it was so unique).


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Falconeer on December 25, 2014, 08:24:18 PM
Eve is a non-factor in this discussion since the vast, vast majority of players chain themselves to Hi Sec space. 

A huge, huge number of people who play EVE and spend the majority of their time in Hi Sec space would have quit EVE a long time ago if they knew there is no Lo Sec space.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Ginaz on December 25, 2014, 09:38:34 PM
Eve is a non-factor in this discussion since the vast, vast majority of players chain themselves to Hi Sec space. 

A huge, huge number of people who play EVE and spend the majority of their time in Hi Sec space would have quit EVE a long time ago if they knew there is no Lo Sec space.

It doesn't negate the fact many players never step foot in low sec or null sec space.  Most of those people would never have played Eve to begin with if they were forced to and there were no "safe" areas for them to play in.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Merusk on December 25, 2014, 09:44:35 PM
It's not a question of "Is there a market for this."

It's a question of, "Will the developers budget for, plan to and understand the size of that market."

Most likely outcome? Nope. There's a history of that here. Trotting out PLAY2CRUSH 10 years later doesn't raise my hopes, either. It lowers them.

Then, in 4-5 years after the explosion, when this cycle happens again, we'll see the same arguments. The game was coded poorly, the game didn't understand the market. The game could have been epic If Only.  If. If. If.

Also, since subs are dead, we're likely to have a nice heaping of, "There was too much Paywall bullshit in the way. "

PVP is a thing and it's always been popular in computer games. Since the first DOOM and QUAKE deathmatches and the MUDS before them.  What they've all had in common is fast in, fast out games where the only real loss is what happened over that game session.

Start tying in long-term stats, equipment games and profiles and you get something different. People expect not to lose their session gains, only to lose matches. That's more like your traditional MMO and doesn't work well at all with permadeth and full loot. Not if you're aiming at a big audience.

Aim at 40-100k? Sure, go for it. There's a niche there you can run with. Too bad egos and investors expect more.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Surlyboi on December 25, 2014, 10:26:11 PM
Quote
It's not a question of "Is there a market for this."

It's a question of, "Will the developers budget for, plan to and understand the size of that market."

Most likely outcome? Nope. There's a history of that here. Trotting out PLAY2CRUSH 10 years later doesn't raise my hopes, either. It lowers them.

Then, in 4-5 years after the explosion, when this cycle happens again, we'll see the same arguments. The game was coded poorly, the game didn't understand the market. The game could have been epic If Only.  If. If. If.

Also, since subs are dead, we're likely to have a nice heaping of, "There was too much Paywall bullshit in the way. "

PVP is a thing and it's always been popular in computer games. Since the first DOOM and QUAKE deathmatches and the MUDS before them.  What they've all had in common is fast in, fast out games where the only real loss is what happened over that game session.

Start tying in long-term stats, equipment games and profiles and you get something different. People expect not to lose their session gains, only to lose matches. That's more like your traditional MMO and doesn't work well at all with permadeth and full loot. Not if you're aiming at a big audience.

Aim at 40-100k? Sure, go for it. There's a niche there you can run with. Too bad egos and investors expect more.
This.

PVP is awesome when it has no lasting effects on the players. A lot of loud people will tell you differently and that without serious stakes, there's no sense in doing it. A lot of those people are fucking morons and will be the first to ragequit when shit doesn't go their way. As has been said further up thread, play to crush is great for a small subset of the playerbase. It doesn't work for the masses, at least not the masses that the money douches are looking for to qualify shit as a "success".


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Merusk on December 25, 2014, 10:46:29 PM
Page 2 now. Quote it, slim.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Threash on December 25, 2014, 10:48:30 PM
It's not a question of "Is there a market for this."

It's a question of, "Will the developers budget for, plan to and understand the size of that market."

Most likely outcome? Nope.

Well you know, they literally say so in their one paragraph website.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Soulflame on December 26, 2014, 09:09:09 AM
Darkfall was shut down two years ago.  Darkfall:  Unholy Wars is a arena style PvP game which is doing fairly poorly, and seems to be slowly heading down the path of F2P.  (Apparently the asian version is already F2P.)

I don't understand why you're touting Darkfall as any sort of metric pointing to desire for this sort of game, or any possibility of success for this style of game.

The fact of the matter is, the sort of game you want is best enjoyed in the first two to three months (like most MMOs, to be fair.)  Populations are at their height, people haven't figured out the cheesiest builds to "own" everyone else, and people are still in the honeymoon phase, so they're willing to overlook bugs, problems with the playerbase, or the fact that LordUTaekitInTehAzz is constantly killing them at the spawn point.

After that point, established players can trivially trounce new players, which rapidly leads to their exit.  The existing playerbase is cannibalized, as the worst players quietly exit, when they realize they aren't having fun being randomly killed and looted by players they have little to no chance to beat.  The communities are toxic as hell (always a problem on the internet:  c.f. The Greater Internet Fuckwad Theory, but this time with actual in game effects that people can only brush off for so long.)


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: HaemishM on December 26, 2014, 11:29:20 AM
League of Legends proved there is a market for "PVP." Only that PVP is not in a persistent fucking world with any sort of actual loss attributed to being the loser. You'd think people who have lost money and jobs trying to build for the vast Mongloid hordes of shit-talking twats out there would have fucking twigged to that by now. Forum posters, people who take polls and people who contribute to Kickstarter's are not even close to any sort of majority, so unless you can make your game completely funded by this vocal shitstains, you can forget making a PVP persistent world MMOG with "real stakes" at risk. It doesn't matter how well executed they are (and with the crew listed on that web site, it will not be anywhere near well-executed), the market IS NOT THERE.

The worst thing people risk in LoL is their ranking, and it is STILL filled with a vile toxic playerbase full of people who may or may not be paying one thin dime to the company making the game. Those people aren't waiting for a persistent world fuckfest where they can lose all their shit. The day of the commercial full-on PVP MMO is DONE. PVP'ers lost, but they mainly lost because they cannot fucking control their urges to be complete and utter shitheels to the people who provide the games (the devs) and the sheeple they feast upon in game.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: sam, an eggplant on December 26, 2014, 12:18:38 PM
Oh is that right? I thought Unholy Wars was an expansion pack. I stand corrected, then. No exclusively PvP focused MMO has proven to be successful.

MOBAs aren't MMOs. No persistent world.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: jakonovski on December 26, 2014, 12:53:43 PM
I think it's mostly down to nobody being able to make an MMO that isn't a pile of hot garbage. They're all tedious, even if you successfully play2crush it's going to be fucking boring for 99% of the time.

 

 



Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: HaemishM on December 26, 2014, 04:57:59 PM
MOBAs aren't MMOs. No persistent world.

Exactly. They are popular. MMOG's are not - they have reached their peak and are in steady decline.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: schild on December 26, 2014, 05:54:16 PM
I'm beginning to think I should open a consultancy for investors to tell them when a video game project is a bad fucking idea.

That might be my "million dollar idea."


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Venkman on December 26, 2014, 11:19:47 PM
MOBAs aren't MMOs. No persistent world.

Feh, that hasn't been a hard and fast rule since instantiated zones, compartmentalized battlegrounds and arenas became the norm. Between persistent accounts that accumulate achievements between matches, abilities based on bandwidth+choices+skills, XP meters used to unlock abilities, virtual/real trading shops, and matchmaking with specific or random groups, about the only thing truly unique to MMOs anymore is that once you leave a zone, it's still there for the next random explorer. And heck, even in WoW, that's not anywhere near 100% of the zones.

About the only actual MMO left by its arguably original definition is Eve. However, I think of Eve more as its own genre than an "MMO". Who competes with Eve?

MMOs have had their day as The Next Big Thing attracting all the investment, and all the good ideas they spawned have long since been ripped off by the other genres.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Rendakor on December 26, 2014, 11:46:07 PM
ArcheAge still fits too, for the most part.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: rk47 on December 27, 2014, 01:03:34 AM
Can't hear you, Ren. Too busy AFK-ing in my house grinding skills while I'm sleeping.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Malakili on December 27, 2014, 07:06:42 AM

MOBAs aren't MMOs. No persistent world.

Few people want PvP in an open world because people don't like to do stuff they don't absolutely want to do right at that moment in their video games.  Open World PvP, in practice, means "PvP even when I don't want to PvP" and no one has to play League of Legends when they want to be picking flowers.  It's pretty simple. The successful Open World games (Skyrim for example) have gotten rid of barriers to doing what you want while these kind of old school MMOs are pretty much ABOUT the barriers.

In the meantime, you've got people like my brother in-law who I was talking to on Christmas about games.  He was singing the praises of Skyrim because he likes "open world" games, but thought that "new one" (he mean't Elder Scrolls Online) was bullshit because it was online all the time and multiplayer only.   He doesn't even know what an MMO is and he is much more representative of the game playing public than I am.



Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Draegan on December 27, 2014, 02:14:09 PM

MOBAs aren't MMOs. No persistent world.

Few people want PvP in an open world because people don't like to do stuff they don't absolutely want to do right at that moment in their video games.  Open World PvP, in practice, means "PvP even when I don't want to PvP" and no one has to play League of Legends when they want to be picking flowers.  It's pretty simple. The successful Open World games (Skyrim for example) have gotten rid of barriers to doing what you want while these kind of old school MMOs are pretty much ABOUT the barriers.

In the meantime, you've got people like my brother in-law who I was talking to on Christmas about games.  He was singing the praises of Skyrim because he likes "open world" games, but thought that "new one" (he mean't Elder Scrolls Online) was bullshit because it was online all the time and multiplayer only.   He doesn't even know what an MMO is and he is much more representative of the game playing public than I am.



Depends what his age bracket is. Because all the kids that have been in my wife's middle school classes (6th through 8th grade) all know what WOW/MMOs are.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Kitsune on December 27, 2014, 04:17:01 PM
The thing any PvP game needs is AI carebears.  Just make them indistinguishable from players and have them run around farming ore nodes or whatnot.  Then when they get jumped by a player, they have about a ten percent chance to make a randomly generated ragepost about it on the game forum talking about how they're quitting forever.  GOTY, more subs than WoW.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Ginaz on December 27, 2014, 09:25:22 PM
The thing any PvP game needs is AI carebears.  Just make them indistinguishable from players and have them run around farming ore nodes or whatnot.  Then when they get jumped by a player, they have about a ten percent chance to make a randomly generated ragepost about it on the game forum talking about how they're quitting forever.  GOTY, more subs than WoW.

You can't make AI cry IRL...or can you? :ye_gods:


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: sam, an eggplant on December 27, 2014, 11:28:11 PM
You can't make AI cry IRL...or can you? :ye_gods:
Sure, logical fallacy their ass. "This statement is false" fucks 'em up good.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: UnSub on December 28, 2014, 02:07:10 AM
League of Legends proved there is a market for "PVP." Only that PVP is not in a persistent fucking world with any sort of actual loss attributed to being the loser. You'd think people who have lost money and jobs trying to build for the vast Mongloid hordes of shit-talking twats out there would have fucking twigged to that by now. Forum posters, people who take polls and people who contribute to Kickstarter's are not even close to any sort of majority, so unless you can make your game completely funded by this vocal shitstains, you can forget making a PVP persistent world MMOG with "real stakes" at risk. It doesn't matter how well executed they are (and with the crew listed on that web site, it will not be anywhere near well-executed), the market IS NOT THERE.

The worst thing people risk in LoL is their ranking, and it is STILL filled with a vile toxic playerbase full of people who may or may not be paying one thin dime to the company making the game. Those people aren't waiting for a persistent world fuckfest where they can lose all their shit. The day of the commercial full-on PVP MMO is DONE. PVP'ers lost, but they mainly lost because they cannot fucking control their urges to be complete and utter shitheels to the people who provide the games (the devs) and the sheeple they feast upon in game.

This really should be bolded and sticked somewhere prominent.

MOBAs stole the ground from MMO PVP a long time ago in video game terms. MOBAs are cheaper to build and let players get right to the fun part without making them spend time killing giant rats to earn the right to play what they want to play.

I'm beginning to think I should open a consultancy for investors to tell them when a video game project is a bad fucking idea.

That might be my "million dollar idea."

Call the company "Pretty Much All Of Them Inc".

You can reference us as your freelance consulting team.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Sutro on December 28, 2014, 02:31:03 AM
I think the discussion here is evident of an outdated vision of what a profitable AA- MMO is now.

I don't think this is going to check in as another AA/A 3D open world with your usual mob camps, pathing and AI. Rather, what's making the money hand over fist in the sub-AA MMO genre is a very cookie cutter formula either derived from Travian or from (way back) Lineage and (more recently) Wartune. If you're familiar with Wartune, it's now been reskinned into dozens of different games, essentially just like it, and all just scooping in dough.

My best prediction of what this will look like is a 2D world, played in a browser, that acts more like HOMM than EverQuest, with an extensive kingdom building system that is derivative of Farmville. No way this comes in with a subscription. It's going to be pay2win and never look back.

Walton and Warden have been around long enough to recognize the wisdom of the sentence, "Why would you ever not have a system that allows the customer to spend as much money as they want?" Remember that Warden's coming from the pay2win space already, and has done very well with it.

Interesting observation from playing lots of these (mostly Chinese translated) games over the past few years: Yes, the $5000+ whales win, but rarely by as much a margin as you would think. Smart system design can mitigate the wallet warrior. If they design in diminishing spend returns, as well as guild battle system that rewards numbers and strategy equally to individual player strength, it could turn out quite nicely. If Wartune had been reskinned by native Western language speakers and cultured writers, it could have been a real phenomenon.

To wit: I've run several guilds in these games where my total spend has clocked in at ~$100-200, with a smattering of people whose spends are similar, and we've very often toasted $20,000+ spending whales because what they have in willingness to load on their credit card they lack in guild building, recruiting acumen and strategy.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Draegan on December 28, 2014, 10:36:38 AM
League of Legends proved there is a market for "PVP." Only that PVP is not in a persistent fucking world with any sort of actual loss attributed to being the loser. You'd think people who have lost money and jobs trying to build for the vast Mongloid hordes of shit-talking twats out there would have fucking twigged to that by now. Forum posters, people who take polls and people who contribute to Kickstarter's are not even close to any sort of majority, so unless you can make your game completely funded by this vocal shitstains, you can forget making a PVP persistent world MMOG with "real stakes" at risk. It doesn't matter how well executed they are (and with the crew listed on that web site, it will not be anywhere near well-executed), the market IS NOT THERE.

The worst thing people risk in LoL is their ranking, and it is STILL filled with a vile toxic playerbase full of people who may or may not be paying one thin dime to the company making the game. Those people aren't waiting for a persistent world fuckfest where they can lose all their shit. The day of the commercial full-on PVP MMO is DONE. PVP'ers lost, but they mainly lost because they cannot fucking control their urges to be complete and utter shitheels to the people who provide the games (the devs) and the sheeple they feast upon in game.

This really should be bolded and sticked somewhere prominent.

MOBAs stole the ground from MMO PVP a long time ago in video game terms. MOBAs are cheaper to build and let players get right to the fun part without making them spend time killing giant rats to earn the right to play what they want to play.

I'm beginning to think I should open a consultancy for investors to tell them when a video game project is a bad fucking idea.

That might be my "million dollar idea."

Call the company "Pretty Much All Of Them Inc".

You can reference us as your freelance consulting team.


While I agree with all of this, I still believe that you can make a great MMO open world PVP game if it's actually designed by people who aren't idiots. Basically means getting rid of levels and quest grinds and somehow thinking up of a way to give players something to "persist" over that isn't +1 gooder gear.

To me, it's trying to creating a MOBA like game but in a persistent world. Instead of collecting gear, you collect classes. Full loot PVP, but gear is very very easy to get in the same sense items are "easy" to get in a game of DOTA/LOL. I dunno, I think it can be done.

Or maybe you make a game that lasts a week instead of 20-50 minutes. Duno.

edit:
I guess the point is, all MMO devs are dumb and so that means you'll never have a good MMO again.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Malakili on December 28, 2014, 10:46:51 AM
If you are going to do a PvP MMO I think the way to go is to minimize the RPG elements - those are the ones that fuck up PvP more than anything.  World War 2 Online with more arcadey gameplay seems like it could be a hit.  Or from the other side of the equation, Planetside 2 with campaigns that have a win condition before resetting like World War 2 Online's do.  I'd play that.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: HaemishM on December 28, 2014, 02:41:16 PM
I still believe that you can make a great MMO open world PVP game if it's actually designed by people who aren't idiots.

edit:
I guess the point is, all MMO devs are dumb and so that means you'll never have a good MMO again.

Your edit demonstrates that your belief is blind faith based on nothing like reality, because as we've all seen, I don't trust one experienced MMO dev out there to deliver anything like a competent game anymore unless that game is nothing more than a clone iteration of every other Diku we've seen since Diku wasn't even Diku.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Venkman on December 28, 2014, 08:30:49 PM
To me, it's trying to creating a MOBA like game but in a persistent world. Instead of collecting gear, you collect classes. Full loot PVP, but gear is very very easy to get in the same sense items are "easy" to get in a game of DOTA/LOL. I dunno, I think it can be done.

So, then, Call of Duty? Or if less twitchy: Titanfall?

I'm not being facetous. Yes I realize you mean "persistent world" in the sense of a WoW zone; however, there's little personal difference between Westfall and some FPS level, except that one doesn't require any other player to instantiate it. And even though Westfall doesn't require this, empty zones are also a major problem for persistent worlds rather than a major benefit.

And yes, I'm making the old EQ vs GW(1) argument about persistence vs instances  :awesome_for_real:

But fast that debate forward a decade:

My earlier point was that "MMO" is no longer an aggregate of systems unique to highly buggy ever changing persistent online worlds. FPS games adding classes, XP and gear progression was just one of many genres to rip off the parts that drove the MMO scene. Not all of it translates to other genres, but that's more based on whether the idea was good than whether the idea fundamentally needs a persistent world.

FPS, RTS and MOBAs have since proved that the most important persistence for gamers is the account, not an always-on virtual room.

To be an "MMO" is to find something so unique that better playing games don't already have it (narrower features, controllable QA, etc, though apparently even this is hard based on this crappy year of buggy launches). But instead of being up against a bunch of single player or session-only games, you're up against everything being online in a range from "a little/co-op" through "a lot/arena", all in games that were cheaper to make and require less live support.

Not a business I'd recommend to anyone  :grin:


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Malakili on December 28, 2014, 08:47:08 PM
FPS, RTS and MOBAs have since proved that the most important persistence for gamers is the account, not an always-on virtual room.

That's obviously true, but that just means gamers don't actually turn out to like what we used to call MMOs, not that MMO now includes everything with persistence.  Which is, like, every game in the world.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Draegan on December 28, 2014, 11:56:07 PM
You do realize plenty of people still play even terrible PVP MMOs that turn out to suck. There are plenty of people looking to play some kind of persistent game world with pvp. All you get is shit like AA, ESO, WH or whatever shitty game of the month is. GW2 etc.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Draegan on December 28, 2014, 11:57:07 PM
To me, it's trying to creating a MOBA like game but in a persistent world. Instead of collecting gear, you collect classes. Full loot PVP, but gear is very very easy to get in the same sense items are "easy" to get in a game of DOTA/LOL. I dunno, I think it can be done.

So, then, Call of Duty? Or if less twitchy: Titanfall?

I'm not being facetous. Yes I realize you mean "persistent world" in the sense of a WoW zone;

Well why did you write the rest of that then?


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Falconeer on December 29, 2014, 07:27:17 AM
I still have to make a case for:

- DayZ
- Rust
- Life is Feudal
- 7 Days to Die
- plenty of other games of this kind that are rising or still alive.

These games have sold MILLIONS of boxes despite being in a greatly unfinished state. DayZ topped at 28k *concurrent* players yesterday, more than a year after becoming available, and still 14th overall on Steam despite being in alpha. Rust at 11k (23th) and yet another alpha game in a very poort state. 7 Days to Die, another alpha Early Access, has a concurrent top of 11k. If you put those numbers together you get much more thant the 20-40k we have discussed earlier in the thread since these figures are for top concurrent users, and this is for games that have very little to offer other than "ambiance" and "full loot PvP". EVE deservers to be part of the list too, and the figures go up.

I tried to ask you a question before: how many of you would have predicted that a game like DayZ could sell 3 million copies? Or how many of you would have predicted it could sell 300k copies? The answer is no one. Now, since you have been wrong once on this topic before, I think there's a fair chance you are wrong again. Just REMEMBER: no one is saying that open world and full loot PvP will ever get out of a niche! Just that the niche can create a profit as long as the game doesn't suck and the design is not just a rehash of the failed attempts of the past. Could it be the 3D? Could it be the lack of swords and magic? Could it be the voice communication? I couldn't design these games or I would be as rich as Rocket Hall so I don't know, but it is obvious that between DayZ and EVE online lies the recipe for the game about 50k concurrent people want to play.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Lantyssa on December 29, 2014, 09:42:33 AM
I tried to ask you a question before: how many of you would have predicted that a game like DayZ could sell 3 million copies? Or how many of you would have predicted it could sell 300k copies? The answer is no one.
I've been an advocate of cheaper/no-subs increasing player rates since forever.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: sam, an eggplant on December 29, 2014, 09:53:22 AM
Are any of those actually MMOs? Don't think anyone is arguing that people don't enjoy killing other players. But Street Fighter IV Alpha Max Edition Turbo Plus isn't a MMO either.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Falconeer on December 29, 2014, 10:24:04 AM
I am sure we agree that the definition is now pretty vague, but I think they are yes. Your characters, items, buildings and vehicles persist on the servers which range from 60 to 200 concurrent users. Some of these games are even developing a "central economy", and you cannot achieve anything offline or privately that you can then move to a persistent server (reason why Elite Dangerous doesn't qualify). Definitely not the EQ/WoW fashion of MMORPG, but that's kind of my point: a new breed of Open World PvP oriented with full loot MMORPGs can work and it's already working. What is missing, and not to go global but to get to those profitable numbers we have mentioned over and over, is more glue keeping the different elements together as older MMOs used to do when there weren't that many to choose from, but it's not "wolves and sheeps" that has been killing the genre for ten years preventing even those who like the concept from playing it. It has been a lack of talent, quality, and some thinking out of the box. As some said before, the key probably lies in creating soft caps where dying is serious but not the end of the world, and where strenght lies in player interactions, or eventually skill, instead of catassing.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Merusk on December 29, 2014, 10:27:14 AM
Are any of those actually MMOs? Don't think anyone is arguing that people don't enjoy killing other players. But Street Fighter IV Alpha Max Edition Turbo Plus isn't a MMO either.

They also ALL play off the "alpha access" to cover-up the bugs, shitty coding and other nonsense.

If you have to pay money and there's no cap on the amount of people let in it's not an alpha or a beta.  It's a bad and unfinished game you've duped idiots into paying for. Sorry.

Only with software are people this gullible. Kudos to the assholes for squeezing them.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Lantyssa on December 29, 2014, 11:08:35 AM
Some of them remind me more of a new generation of MUDs.  Paying a lot is silly, but donating a little time or money to keep them going isn't a terrible waste if you enjoy what they offer.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: sam, an eggplant on December 29, 2014, 11:57:06 AM
I am sure we agree that the definition is now pretty vague, but I think they are yes. Your characters, items, buildings and vehicles persist on the servers which range from 60 to 200 concurrent users. Some of these games are even developing a "central economy", and you cannot achieve anything offline or privately that you can then move to a persistent server
At 200 users max they certainly aren't massively multiplayer-- but once you get past that mental gap yeah, if you've got a persistent world with an economy, it's a MMO. Really persistence is my "I know pornography when I see it" threshold. Persistence=MMO. Non-persistent=not.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Draegan on December 29, 2014, 12:48:32 PM
I am sure we agree that the definition is now pretty vague, but I think they are yes. Your characters, items, buildings and vehicles persist on the servers which range from 60 to 200 concurrent users. Some of these games are even developing a "central economy", and you cannot achieve anything offline or privately that you can then move to a persistent server
At 200 users max they certainly aren't massively multiplayer-- but once you get past that mental gap yeah, if you've got a persistent world with an economy, it's a MMO. Really persistence is my "I know pornography when I see it" threshold. Persistence=MMO. Non-persistent=not.

What MMO is actually massive? Outside of standing idle in a city, would you ever notice the difference between 50 or 2000 people on a WOW server? I think that's the problem some people have.

Are any of those actually MMOs? Don't think anyone is arguing that people don't enjoy killing other players. But Street Fighter IV Alpha Max Edition Turbo Plus isn't a MMO either.

They also ALL play off the "alpha access" to cover-up the bugs, shitty coding and other nonsense.

If you have to pay money and there's no cap on the amount of people let in it's not an alpha or a beta.  It's a bad and unfinished game you've duped idiots into paying for. Sorry.

Only with software are people this gullible. Kudos to the assholes for squeezing them.

Oh god forbid some people have fun with a game for a small chunk of coin.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Malakili on December 29, 2014, 01:29:34 PM

What MMO is actually massive? Outside of standing idle in a city, would you ever notice the difference between 50 or 2000 people on a WOW server? I think that's the problem some people have.

...

Oh god forbid some people have fun with a game for a small chunk of coin.

I think anyone who has played in an MMO where there server population is dying can tell you there is a pretty big qualitative difference in the experience. There is something about a persistent world that that is self contained.  Just that pool of players, just that pool of characters, just that finite space.   Running into a guy questing in the same area all week because you both log in after work every day, make friends, add to your friends list, team up for dungeons in your level range.  That kind of stuff is really compelling in a way that isn't replicated by games that instance all their zones such that I never see the same people twice.  So yeah, the difference between 50 people and 2000 people does matter a lot.

As for the alpha backing things - I think it's fine to do and play IF you can get something out of the game immediately.  However, I am honestly pretty nervous about what it means for the hobby as a whole when there is a lot of incentive to put something out there that is unfinished by kind of compelling because you can make loads of cash off the hype.  I've done it a few times myself and have had mixed results.  I've been pretty judicious, so I've only felt like I really made a mistake once. 



Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: sam, an eggplant on December 29, 2014, 02:25:52 PM
What MMO is actually massive? Outside of standing idle in a city, would you ever notice the difference between 50 or 2000 people on a WOW server? I think that's the problem some people have. 
Sure, the economy is the most obvious answer to that. You're all competing for llimited resources in a persistent world. Also player organizations like guilds. And you see tons of people gathering for periodic events like holidays.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: HaemishM on December 29, 2014, 11:35:31 PM
DayZ started as a mod for another game that sold enough copies of the original game that the modmaker got offered a job. If it ever gets finished/released as an actual product, it might prove something other than "gamers are so desperate for fun they will make their own in a buggy, unfinished mess and pay for the privilege." It IS an indictment of how fucking horrible AAA game development has become that those things prove to be better experiences than something that had millions spent on it.

I have also advocated MMOG's embrace the niche since at least 2002 or whenever I started writing for Waterthread. However, this does not seem like that - this seems like failed MMOG devs clinging to their failed ideologies of game design like McQuaid, only with less opiates.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Sky on December 30, 2014, 12:27:46 PM
Thank god for those old warhorses allowing all the old arguments to come back into play. It's been too long!

Countdown to crowdfunding appeal in 3...2...actually they have the counter on their website.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Malakili on December 30, 2014, 01:20:36 PM

Countdown to crowdfunding appea

Part of the catch-22 is that one of the draws of crowdfunding is getting in on the ground floor of the next big thing.  The second they drop the "we're the next big thing" line and embrace the niche that Haemish mentions, I think a lot of the desire to crowdfund goes with it.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Draegan on December 30, 2014, 08:05:13 PM


I think anyone who has played in an MMO where there server population is dying can tell you there is a pretty big qualitative difference in the experience. There is something about a persistent world that that is self contained.  Just that pool of players, just that pool of characters, just that finite space.   Running into a guy questing in the same area all week because you both log in after work every day, make friends, add to your friends list, team up for dungeons in your level range.  That kind of stuff is really compelling in a way that isn't replicated by games that instance all their zones such that I never see the same people twice.  So yeah, the difference between 50 people and 2000 people does matter a lot.

As for the alpha backing things - I think it's fine to do and play IF you can get something out of the game immediately.  However, I am honestly pretty nervous about what it means for the hobby as a whole when there is a lot of incentive to put something out there that is unfinished by kind of compelling because you can make loads of cash off the hype.  I've done it a few times myself and have had mixed results.  I've been pretty judicious, so I've only felt like I really made a mistake once. 



I guess you can romanticize anything. Does WOW even have empty servers anymore? Don't they do that cluster/phasing thing where you're always with someone for the most part? I mean if you're still doing static servers and you're on a dead one, it's going to make a difference sure. But for your average, level cap player in WOW. You will never notice the difference.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Malakili on December 30, 2014, 09:24:48 PM
I mean I guess I'm romanticizing it?  I've spent a lot of time on exactly 3 MMOs over the years.  World War 2 Online, EVE, and World of Warcraft.  I've played dozens of others, but none of the others touched those three in terms of pure time spent.  I haven't played WoW since they did that cluster thing. 


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: sam, an eggplant on December 30, 2014, 10:11:20 PM
I've tried everything and only WoW has kept my interest for more than a couple of weeks-- and even then, I only play for the first month or three of each expansion pack.

I keep GW2 and NWN installed, though, and I play around with each new patch and content update. That's the beauty of F2P.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Draegan on December 31, 2014, 02:35:27 PM
I mean I guess I'm romanticizing it?  I've spent a lot of time on exactly 3 MMOs over the years.  World War 2 Online, EVE, and World of Warcraft.  I've played dozens of others, but none of the others touched those three in terms of pure time spent.  I haven't played WoW since they did that cluster thing. 

That's only because almost every MMORPG in the classic since has been garbage for the most part. Each one that comes out has some new feature that is interesting but the games overall are usually terrible. I'll list everything each game did that got me to play it at least once.

TESO - Great graphics, great class system. Almost really good combat that was awful because of delays, animation and weapon swapping lag.
GW2 - Excellent world creation. Fun combat/skill system.
Wildstar - Uhm. I can't think of anything. I really tried to find something good about the game. I only played it because I was bored.
NWN - Great combat, easy to play and get into. Just down right fun.
ArcheAge - Great class system, had hints of a good sandbox (which was a failure imo).
SWTOR - Excellent story mode. And it was Star Wars.
TERA - Amazing combat system.

However most of these games lacked content, or the content they did have was boring and not compelling. GW2/TESO had the whole instanced pvp thing that was just a boring as fuck zerg fest with no stickiness. Wildstar was just a clusterfuck and an example of how NOT to design a game (I'm giving them a large benefit of the doubt by saying the game was actually design by some coherent sentient being). NWN is great, but it's a paywall game. AA was boring and grinding and RNG as fuck. SWTOR was just another boring as fuck DIKU game (which actually has gotten a lot better, unfortunately you can't level by doing storymode only anymore). TERA was just boring as shit with crazy RNG and no real content when you stopped doing the combat thing and looked up.

Anyway. Whatever. Happy New Year. Here's to watching more failures with whatever Sony puts out, Black Desert and all those kickstarter games.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Ginaz on December 31, 2014, 02:50:16 PM
If there's ever a new MMO Jesus that the masses are raving about, it'll have to be either f2p or b2p for me to play.  Sub games are no longer superior in any way.  The past few years I've sunk more time into games like Neverwinter, Warframe, Marvel Heroes and World of Tanks than I have in any sub based game.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Threash on December 31, 2014, 03:33:17 PM
Wildstar - Uhm. I can't think of anything. I really tried to find something good about the game. I only played it because I was bored.

Great marketing?


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Draegan on December 31, 2014, 03:58:12 PM
Wildstar - Uhm. I can't think of anything. I really tried to find something good about the game. I only played it because I was bored.

Great marketing?

I wrote that, but deleted it. I knew the game was shit while the great marketing was going on because I had a chance to play it early. So it wasn't a reason for me.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Threash on December 31, 2014, 04:36:45 PM
I knew the game was shit when i learned it was raid focused but i'll be damned if their videos didn't want to make me play it really really bad.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Draegan on December 31, 2014, 08:50:32 PM
It really wasn't raid focused more than any other DIKU MMO. They just really liked to talk about the 2-3 raid zones they had. There was a shit load of (shitty) content for you to do without raiding.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: apocrypha on January 01, 2015, 02:08:32 AM
Only ~0.3% of WildStar's players have cleared the first tier of raiding are are even eligible for the second (72*20 out of ~500,000 sales). Only ~1.3% have killed any raid boss at all.

http://www.wildstar-progress.com/rankings/prad/world/vanilla/genetic_archives

Copy/pasted on mobile device, sorry if formatting comes out funky.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: rk47 on January 01, 2015, 07:40:26 AM
'Only ~0.3% of WildStar's players have cleared the first tier of raiding are are even eligible for the second (72*20 out of ~500,000 sales). Only ~1.3% have killed any raid boss at all.'

Great success for the devs at beating the players, then?  :grin:


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Rendakor on January 01, 2015, 10:38:12 AM
I have a DM that would be so proud.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Threash on January 01, 2015, 11:24:14 AM
Every minute spent on developing raid content is wasted development time.  Gazillion did the same in Marvel Heroes, but it only took them like a month to realize they needed to dumb down the raids so much ten monkeys with learning disabilities could get through them.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Draegan on January 01, 2015, 03:01:13 PM
Honestly, fighting big bad guys with a bunch of people can be fun, just most developers don't know how to make a fight because the underlining mechanics of their games are shit. DIKU games so finely tuned their raids that one mistake wipes the group and you have to start all over again. Then toss in that DIKU games aren't inherently fun to actually play, it's stupid design. DIKU is about making bigger numbers, not actually having fun playing the game.

ARPGs don't really lend to large groups of people playing at once in my opinion. 5 or so people at once is almost enough.

I can think of a few dozen ways to make "raiding" or large group content more entertaining and it certaining doesn't involved playing dance dance revolution against a single large NPC while pressing 12323231415 in your rotation.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: WayAbvPar on January 01, 2015, 07:03:46 PM
I would rather see randomized encounters. Wandering bosses as well as dungeons. Switch things up on people so it isn't just memorizing a strategy and herding cats for hours.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Malakili on January 01, 2015, 07:17:28 PM
The problem, as it is with all team games, is how much do you want to be playing a game where joe random can ruin your fun because he sucks at the game?  Or even from the other side of the equation in good faith - do you want to play a game where you are under the pressure of knowing if you don't play well you've ruined someone else's session?  When you have a group of like-minded, good players MMO raid and difficult dungeon content is very fun and engaging.  When you don't, it's a total nightmare that makes you feel like you wasted an evening.  But then, League of Legends et al. are the same way and people play those by the millions.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Threash on January 01, 2015, 07:33:48 PM
But in pvp having someone to blame when you lose is if not a feature at least beneficial to the ego.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: HaemishM on January 01, 2015, 08:37:23 PM
But then, League of Legends et al. are the same way and people play those by the millions.

Yeah, LoL and other MOBA's, as frustrating as they can be, are also IMMENSELY popular as well as INSANELY addictive. The only fun part about DIKU MMOG raids is if you are leader and I don't think "FUN" is the actual word to use. The challenging bit, maybe. The rest, at the individual raider level, is all execution. PVP MOBA's are infinitely more interesting to play.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Rendakor on January 01, 2015, 08:47:56 PM
Challenging is a better word, although I think I'd go with stressful. You get stuff like the 50 dkp minus thing because no matter how hard you try, one of your cats will inevitably fail to be herded at a crucial moment.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Malakili on January 01, 2015, 09:08:04 PM
But in pvp having someone to blame when you lose is if not a feature at least beneficial to the ego.

I guess.  For me it's maddening.  For me team games really REQUIRE a good team for me to get the most out of them. When I was in a Counter-Strike and Team Fortress clan, i loved those games.  But, ironically, something like Starcraft 2 ends up being a better "casual" game for me because I can depend entirely on myself without having to worry about anyone else, so it always fits my schedule and level of play.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Rendakor on January 01, 2015, 09:11:07 PM
I'm with Mal, although I hate being the guy that lets his team down even more than having teammates ruin my day.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Draegan on January 01, 2015, 09:54:06 PM
Thats the problem with "modern day" raids. One person can fuck everyone's night with mistakes but there is no room for one person to be the hero of everyone's night. That's part of why LOL is fun. You can feed, but one person on your team can carry you. In a typical raid, one mistake basically wastes 20 minutes of everyones night and people hate you and it happens in a heart beat.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: WayAbvPar on January 01, 2015, 10:11:15 PM
The problem, as it is with all team games, is how much do you want to be playing a game where joe random can ruin your fun because he sucks at the game?  Or even from the other side of the equation in good faith - do you want to play a game where you are under the pressure of knowing if you don't play well you've ruined someone else's session?  When you have a group of like-minded, good players MMO raid and difficult dungeon content is very fun and engaging.  When you don't, it's a total nightmare that makes you feel like you wasted an evening.  But then, League of Legends et al. are the same way and people play those by the millions.

Literally tens of thousands of people just like that in Word Of Tanks every. fucking. day.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Soulflame on January 01, 2015, 10:48:17 PM
Thats the problem with "modern day" raids. One person can fuck everyone's night with mistakes but there is no room for one person to be the hero of everyone's night. That's part of why LOL is fun. You can feed, but one person on your team can carry you. In a typical raid, one mistake basically wastes 20 minutes of everyones night and people hate you and it happens in a heart beat.

Is this actually the case? I thought one of the worst things about MOBAs is that it's almost impossible for one person to carry a bunch of "bads".  Or even four people to carry one guy who isn't playing well, or even in sync with the general strategy.

I can tell some stories about one guy being a hero in raids.  My favorite has to be our druid healer who had to pop open his spell book to find bear form so that he could "tank" the last 2% of the first kill of a boss in Ulduar.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Rendakor on January 01, 2015, 11:02:20 PM
I've got a couple raider-hero stories too, but when I really thought about it there were so many more fights where 1 fuckup can wipe the raid.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Draegan on January 02, 2015, 02:18:13 AM
Thats the problem with "modern day" raids. One person can fuck everyone's night with mistakes but there is no room for one person to be the hero of everyone's night. That's part of why LOL is fun. You can feed, but one person on your team can carry you. In a typical raid, one mistake basically wastes 20 minutes of everyones night and people hate you and it happens in a heart beat.

Is this actually the case? I thought one of the worst things about MOBAs is that it's almost impossible for one person to carry a bunch of "bads".  Or even four people to carry one guy who isn't playing well, or even in sync with the general strategy.

I can tell some stories about one guy being a hero in raids.  My favorite has to be our druid healer who had to pop open his spell book to find bear form so that he could "tank" the last 2% of the first kill of a boss in Ulduar.

Yes. The last time you could be a hero in a raid was EQ from all the stories I hear in neckbeard land. In any case, yes in LOL you can carry 4 other average players to victory. There are certain champs you can play that just destroy others if you get ahead and play well. You can look up some of the top players in the world and watch some vids of them going from Unranked to Diamond in X Days and watch them carry.



Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Teleku on January 02, 2015, 07:24:55 AM
Yeah, one guy can carry hard in LoL.  Of course it also depends heavily on how competent the other team is, but I've been in matches where the other team may as well have had 4 of their players stay back at base and they still would have won.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Bzalthek on January 02, 2015, 02:37:10 PM
I personally don't like how fragile the raiding scene has become.  A lot of times 1 person makes 1 mistake and there goes an hour of prep time. 


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Rendakor on January 02, 2015, 02:47:32 PM
I'm not actually sure anyone likes it. The problem is that devs seem to think the only alternative is some LFR-style faceroll nonsense.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Threash on January 02, 2015, 03:00:42 PM
People sure love LFR faceroll nonsense though.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Xanthippe on January 03, 2015, 02:00:40 PM
There's a fun/ease of play threshold. Too easy and quits being fun. Too hard and quits being fun.

LFR has to be on the easy side because there are too many undergeared or people who don't understand their class mechanics well enough who still want a shot at the loot.

I was a little excited at first to see this thread because when I saw Old School MMO I was thinking of crafting systems. Why do they seem to be evolving to be more terrible instead of better? (At least for Blizzard). UO had fun crafting, and it's been downhill since.

I guess that's what Minecraft is for.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Zane0 on January 04, 2015, 10:37:32 PM
You guys have a thing now where you try aggressively to see over the horizon viz. 'persistence is dead,' 'dikus are dead,' 'mmos are dead.' I think this critical disposition has outpaced the actually quite stolid and basic market formula still represented by WoW and its successors. The fatigue is on one hand very real. The standard formula seem to be stagnating, even regressing. WoW has lobotomized a lot of its own persistent features; FFXIV, SWTOR, Wildstar, have been subjected here and elsewhere to sometimes deserved, sometimes gleefully rapacious takedowns; and a lot of recent dev studios, perhaps broadly in response, have turned to open-worlds and moba-likes in search of the next winning formula.

But FFXIV and SWTOR, I should remind you, have actually turned around -- SWTOR being still garbage IMO. And I am playing Wildstar on a lark and it is actually a remarkably polished and engaging themepark mmo--particularly considering the criticism it has attracted--that will also almost surely be a success when the dev team throws it into f2p and/or democratizes its endgame content.

I guess I just want to say I'm optimistic about the immediate future? The market has a fairly reliable formula to fall back on that it is also attempting to innovate (through EQ3, Archeage, Black Desert, and w/e else is going on) in ways that seem a lot more promising than several years ago when everything seemed to be failing. If persistency very generally is a casualty then it is a casualty of our own market behaviour; unlike perhaps a lot of you I think the DIKU formula is the hell we deserve (and I am satisfied to live in it -- even if its persistency is boiled down to where it stands at the moment with WoW). More ambitious MMOs have almost always fallen victim not just to shitty development but to the inability and unwillingness of most people to treat these games as anything more than an hour or two of casual entertainment. That is to say: the more open and dynamic the world, the more significantly power disparities open up, the more dysfunctional and broken the world becomes for the generalized 'end-user,' and so on.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: sam, an eggplant on January 04, 2015, 11:14:03 PM
I'm not ashamed to say I love diku combat. I loved it in EQ, and I love it in WoW, FFXXXVI, wildstar, and what have you. Diku combat works-- threat is simple to understand, and dependency between players simply works. It works.

Diku combat isn't the problem, lack of content and forced repetition to artificially extend playtime is and always has been the problem. Imagine if WoW released a full expansion worth of material spread out over every 8 months. A WoW-sized patch every 2 months, then after 4 of em a new expansion. Golly, I'd play (and pay) forever.

Hard modes suck ass. Dailies can blow a goat. Repetition is the mind-killer. Give me new shit frequently and I'm a happy player.

Sadly, it seems I am essentially asking for the moon.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Draegan on January 05, 2015, 09:02:59 AM
Someone needs to revamp/rework or put a new spin on levels. Get rid of leveling with a new way to track progression. Stop making your game 90% leveling content and 10% level cap content. WOW put a new spin on leveling from grinding to quest based. Someone needs to do that with the leveling process and get rid of it.

Make it achievement based, or something.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Threash on January 05, 2015, 10:38:07 AM
Or make leveling about increasing your options rather than your power.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Malakili on January 05, 2015, 11:36:35 AM
Or make leveling about increasing your options rather than your power.

The first often amounts to the second.  If you have more flexibility to adapt to the situation/boss/dungeon/quest you are going to be more powerful.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Khaldun on January 05, 2015, 11:42:20 AM
I would love someone figuring out how to have your power reflect your cumulative choices, to be driven as much by narrative progression as anything else, in both a standard RPG and an MMO. I don't mind the idea of content being gated in some sense by whether I'm a young warrior swinging my sword for the first time or a grizzled old adventurer with fifty scars, but I hate the idea of advancing kill-by-kill, mission-by-mission. That's what's wrong with levels--the incremental Pavlovian conditioning, the need to make every play session matter because you got a bit further towards the next level rather than had an intrinsically interesting experience with the content.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Malakili on January 05, 2015, 11:52:01 AM
I would love someone figuring out how to have your power reflect your cumulative choices, to be driven as much by narrative progression as anything else, in both a standard RPG and an MMO. I don't mind the idea of content being gated in some sense by whether I'm a young warrior swinging my sword for the first time or a grizzled old adventurer with fifty scars, but I hate the idea of advancing kill-by-kill, mission-by-mission. That's what's wrong with levels--the incremental Pavlovian conditioning, the need to make every play session matter because you got a bit further towards the next level rather than had an intrinsically interesting experience with the content.


I wholeheartedly agree and long for such a game.  But it seems like that to me in a computerized environment every game is going to be analyzed to death to the point where even if you are designing a game that tries to avoid it, people will still treat it like a math problem.  The fastest way to level will still be found, the best abilities to use will still be found, and the playerbase will make that the "normal" way to approach playing the game because if you don't do those things you'll be left out.

The other side of that is that "an intrinsically interesting experience with the content" is just really hard to pull off when it comes to a game people are supposed to be playing for years on end.  SWTOR sort of tried that, but it's impossible to put that level of effort into content people are ultimately chewing through over the long haul.  So instead you get repetitive, uninteresting content with small, frequent rewards as a way of keeping it engaging.  But once you see through that illusion, it's practically the same mob grind that EQ was, just with a veneer of questing over it.  It fooled me for a while, but in the end it was barely different at all.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Draegan on January 05, 2015, 12:24:58 PM
Barely different? Are we really forgetting how it was a very different experience. It kept you moving through a map, seeing different locations, giving you item rewards along the way. Quests were a huge improvement.

I think you're distilling things to much and I think you are assuming everyone is going to minmax whatever.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: sam, an eggplant on January 05, 2015, 12:36:43 PM
Definitely, WoW quest leveling was a huuuuuuge improvement.

Remember back in EQ, you would log in and basically camp mobs respawning every 6 minutes for hours on end. And that's if you were lucky, and didn't choose the ranger class 80 days /played back, and get to sit at the zone line endlessly advertising for a group in /ooc. Over time people forget just how awful EQ truly was.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Malakili on January 05, 2015, 12:59:31 PM
Definitely, WoW quest leveling was a huuuuuuge improvement.

Remember back in EQ, you would log in and basically camp mobs respawning every 6 minutes for hours on end. And that's if you were lucky, and didn't choose the ranger class 80 days /played back, and get to sit at the zone line endlessly advertising for a group in /ooc. Over time people forget just how awful EQ truly was.

Yes, it absolutely WAS a huge improvement.  But the point is by now it feels like just as much of a grind as ever.  At this point I have exactly as much patience for WoW style questing as I do for camping spawns.  None.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Draegan on January 05, 2015, 01:02:03 PM
Definitely, WoW quest leveling was a huuuuuuge improvement.

Remember back in EQ, you would log in and basically camp mobs respawning every 6 minutes for hours on end. And that's if you were lucky, and didn't choose the ranger class 80 days /played back, and get to sit at the zone line endlessly advertising for a group in /ooc. Over time people forget just how awful EQ truly was.

Yes, it absolutely WAS a huge improvement.  But the point is by now it feels like just as much of a grind as ever.  At this point I have exactly as much patience for WoW style questing as I do for camping spawns.  None.

Didn't know you meant now, 10+ years later. I agree with that statement then. Which is why I advocate for not having levels and doing something else to progress/track progress of a character.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: WayAbvPar on January 05, 2015, 02:52:33 PM
Or make leveling about increasing your options rather than your power.

That is why I always liked use-based skills rather than levels. Yes, people can macro. So what? people can grind out levels too. Skills allow new players to become narrowly useful relatively quickly, while allowing veteran players to broaden their options.

As for questing vs spawn camping- I am DONE running quests. So dull. I actually miss being able to camp a spawn and make decent progress.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Rasix on January 05, 2015, 03:15:08 PM
Or make leveling about increasing your options rather than your power.

That is why I always liked use-based skills rather than levels. Yes, people can macro. So what? people can grind out levels too. Skills allow new players to become narrowly useful relatively quickly, while allowing veteran players to broaden their options.

As for questing vs spawn camping- I am DONE running quests. So dull. I actually miss being able to camp a spawn and make decent progress.

(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/82533/rideaway.gif)


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Count Nerfedalot on January 05, 2015, 03:47:48 PM
I like what LOTRO did with this. You have quest lines taking you new places and pointing you at things to kill.  You also get decent exp for killing things in general plus achievements with worthwhile rewards plus drops that can be turned in for yet more quest rewards.  It makes it so if you find a fun place to hunt you can stay there quite a while and have fun while still making progress.
It's not enough. But it was a good blend of rewarding both questing and non - quest hunting.
The bigger problem is it's still a tired old story in a world where nothing changes no matter what you do when what many of think we want is a world that changes and evolves whether we do anything or not, but we have a chance of maybe affecting the results of those changes if we choose to.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: KallDrexx on January 05, 2015, 06:10:46 PM
Levelling is never going away, for better or for worse.  Too many people tie into that number for achievement that it's staggering (it's amazing how many people complained about getting to max level in GW1 right away, even though by that time you've still only saw 10-15% of the content). 

I'd like to see advancement in questing though.  While I never played WoW at release, questing right now at low levels is a chore to me because they just bombard you with quests that make me have zero desire to actually figure out what's going on.  I literally just created a new level 1 and after the first quest (a "go talk to this guy" quest) I'm immediately bombarded with 3 parallel quests.  I want to enjoy and see whats going on, but I"m not going to read 3 windows of quest text to do it, knowing that once I hand them in I'm going to get blasted with a ton of more text.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: rk47 on January 05, 2015, 09:25:09 PM
Go there. Kill 10 goats.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Malakili on January 05, 2015, 09:34:12 PM
I want to enjoy and see whats going on

Nothing is going on, that's the problem.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Rendakor on January 05, 2015, 11:34:14 PM
Levelling is never going away, for better or for worse.  Too many people tie into that number for achievement that it's staggering (it's amazing how many people complained about getting to max level in GW1 right away, even though by that time you've still only saw 10-15% of the content). 

I'd like to see advancement in questing though.  While I never played WoW at release, questing right now at low levels is a chore to me because they just bombard you with quests that make me have zero desire to actually figure out what's going on.  I literally just created a new level 1 and after the first quest (a "go talk to this guy" quest) I'm immediately bombarded with 3 parallel quests.  I want to enjoy and see whats going on, but I"m not going to read 3 windows of quest text to do it, knowing that once I hand them in I'm going to get blasted with a ton of more text.

Play Secret World; quests in that are really interesting, the combat is just very unappealing to me (GW2/Wildstar's constant fire-dodging without TERA's awesome combat and a limited action set which is a huge turnoff for me).


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: rk47 on January 06, 2015, 12:26:45 AM
Been meaning to try TSW, but how's the requirements? Installation size and stuff?


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: CmdrSlack on January 06, 2015, 12:47:56 AM
I was a senior guide in EQ. In hindsight, once you got outside the E Ro Tunnel, there weren't a TON of social spots, it was a bit odd to just watch groups sit at a static spawn. With the ability to be invisible and never draw aggro, you could really observe people playing in a way that was more difficult for the normal player to do. Back then, plane raids weren't an exact science and rubicite had been recently removed from the game.

The thing that EQ got right was rare spawns. What it got wrong was tying "essential" items to those rare spawns. That was stupid as hell. I dealt with lots of griefing petitions based on spawn disputes. The chance to find a neat spawn that most people didn't get to find was cool. The dickish hoarding of the spawn point was what ruined it.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Scold on January 06, 2015, 01:06:32 AM
UO > EQ and all the mediocre dikus that followed it.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: HaemishM on January 06, 2015, 12:21:40 PM
As much as the IDEA of camping sucks monkey balls, it actually was a fun time in EQ1. It created a lot of socializing opportunities that you don't get with questing lines, raids and the like. Looking at a spellbook was a fucking nightmare, as was watching your health/mana slowly tick back up to a manageable level. It's biggest drawbacks were as CmdrSlack mentioned, rare spawns for essential items, a situation which created a shitload of griefing and unnecessary conflict. And of course, combat as in most DIKU's got really fucking boring after a while, especially with the leveling curve you had to face in that game. Hell levels especially were galling, because you spent forever doing the same things over and over again (things you had to be in a group to survive). I recognized early how boring that stuff was going to get, so I tried to make sure I moved myself and my guild around, never spending more than a week in one leveling place. I even ran specific event weeks to dungeons that we might not have gotten to just to keep the game a bit fresh.

But in the end, the natural tendency for people was to approach the leveling in the most efficient way possible which limited their "camping" to only specific leveling spots the higher up they went. And of course, there were those essential, class-defining items that everyone HAD to get which drove everyone to the same places and spawns.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Threash on January 06, 2015, 12:22:59 PM
It was really not though.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: HaemishM on January 06, 2015, 12:26:08 PM
Ok, let me rephrase - camping was fun if you were in your group, with your friends/guildmates you liked. Random cockgobblers? Yeah, that was a highly variable experience.

The future of MMOG's really isn't MORE PLAYERS IN MORE PLACES!!!! It's more players in smaller, closer knit groups doing content they feel was made for them. Crafting a boutique experience for smaller, MOBA-sized teams of players should be more important than making a PLAY2CRUSH world where only the ones able to put the most time or real money into the game get to win.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Malakili on January 06, 2015, 12:28:08 PM
Well, the parts I remember fondly about these games were playing socially with people.  It was novel and interesting and even when it was tedious it was totally unlike other games I had played in the past.  That counted for a lot.  But now having instant access to thousands of other gamers is practically a given regardless of the genre you're playing.  In fact, now that the novelty has worn off most people just want to play alone and not have to be bothered by anyone else.  I think part of what is going on is that there isn't one eternal formula for a good game.  What was good 10-12 years ago isn't good now.  That doesn't mean it wasn't good then.  But it also means that just trying to go back to the old way isn't satisfying to most people either, even the people who had a good time the first time around.  

What people really want - I believe - is to feel like they felt playing those old school MMOs, but I'm not sure it's possible to recreate that experience of a totally novel genre, exploring a huge game world and running into people for the first time, etc.  Nostalgia counts for something, but it wears off the same way the novelty did.  


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Threash on January 06, 2015, 12:38:04 PM
Ok, let me rephrase - camping was fun if you were in your group, with your friends/guildmates you liked. Random cockgobblers? Yeah, that was a highly variable experience.

The future of MMOG's really isn't MORE PLAYERS IN MORE PLACES!!!! It's more players in smaller, closer knit groups doing content they feel was made for them. Crafting a boutique experience for smaller, MOBA-sized teams of players should be more important than making a PLAY2CRUSH world where only the ones able to put the most time or real money into the game get to win.

Hell getting a group at all was not automatic unless you were one of three out of like fourteen classes.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: sam, an eggplant on January 06, 2015, 12:41:33 PM
Ok, let me rephrase - camping was fun if you were in your group, with your friends/guildmates you liked
To further rephrase, what you're really saying is "I like hanging out with my friends". It had nothing to do with the actual game.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Tmon on January 06, 2015, 12:56:12 PM
Ok, let me rephrase - camping was fun if you were in your group, with your friends/guildmates you liked
To further rephrase, what you're really saying is "I like hanging out with my friends". It had nothing to do with the actual game.

The problem for me came when my friends all out leveled me,  the penalties for grouping with a higher level player were just horrendous.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Draegan on January 06, 2015, 01:15:37 PM
Ok, let me rephrase - camping was fun if you were in your group, with your friends/guildmates you liked
To further rephrase, what you're really saying is "I like hanging out with my friends". It had nothing to do with the actual game.

If you had camping today, most people would be alt-tab'd or doing something else while they played. Back then people were basically stuck doing one thing on their PC.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: WayAbvPar on January 06, 2015, 01:22:00 PM
Ok, let me rephrase - camping was fun if you were in your group, with your friends/guildmates you liked. Random cockgobblers? Yeah, that was a highly variable experience.

The future of MMOG's really isn't MORE PLAYERS IN MORE PLACES!!!! It's more players in smaller, closer knit groups doing content they feel was made for them. Crafting a boutique experience for smaller, MOBA-sized teams of players should be more important than making a PLAY2CRUSH world where only the ones able to put the most time or real money into the game get to win.

Hell getting a group at all was not automatic unless you were one of three out of like fourteen classes.

Yep. I played an enchanter specifically so I would rarely have trouble finding a group. I was a damned good enchanter too. I miss having to actually use a bit of skill/knowledge/awareness during fights.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: sam, an eggplant on January 06, 2015, 01:24:15 PM
If you had camping today, most people would be alt-tab'd or doing something else while they played. Back then people were basically stuck doing one thing on their PC.
Not basically, literally-- Everquest did not allow players to alt-tab from the client.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Tmon on January 06, 2015, 03:13:52 PM
There was also the fun of having your spell book fill the screen while your character sat and memorized spells.  Or was it when you regenerated manna?


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: sam, an eggplant on January 06, 2015, 03:29:49 PM
It was when you "meditated", yes, which was the primary way to regenerate mana. WoW innovated tracking whether the player was "in combat", allowing for different regeneration rates. This is one of its more important improvements to the genre which many people don't recognize, actually. It's what allows you to run around and kill monsters without waiting for extended periods between kills.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Ingmar on January 06, 2015, 03:33:11 PM
Pretty sure DAOC did that first actually? Endurance regen in/out of combat was different I think?


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: sam, an eggplant on January 06, 2015, 03:38:22 PM
Did it track combat status? I only played DAoC to level 15 or so, honestly don't remember.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Tmon on January 06, 2015, 04:31:53 PM
It was when you "meditated", yes, which was the primary way to regenerate mana. WoW innovated tracking whether the player was "in combat", allowing for different regeneration rates. This is one of its more important improvements to the genre which many people don't recognize, actually. It's what allows you to run around and kill monsters without waiting for extended periods between kills.

If I remember right, the devs said that without this 'downtime' no one would socialize which would be contrary to the 'vision'.  All I remember for sure is that when I tried WoW I felt like someone had taken my personal list of EQ peeves and created a game that addressed about 90% of them.  Of course new peeves grew to replace them and I moved on from WoW 6 or 7 years ago.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: sam, an eggplant on January 06, 2015, 04:34:38 PM
You misspelled Vision(tm).

The original EQ developers attributed many design foibles to the Vision(tm), but the truth was they didn't really know what secret sauce made the game so popular and were downright terrified of accidentally killing the golden-egg laying goose.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: HaemishM on January 06, 2015, 04:58:36 PM
They were also intransigent fuckheads.

I'm not saying we should bring back camping, but there was definitely something that made camping bearable - the socializing aspect with out groupmates. That's gone now and WoW did kill it by removing the idiotic reliance on downtime as a leveling gate. None of the designs that have come along the way since have offered much of a reason or opportunity to socialize whil doing your thing.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Tmon on January 06, 2015, 05:07:39 PM
I think a lot of socializing moved to guild chat, voice coms and whatever 3rd party apps people use to chat with friends.  That there's not much time or incentive to socialize with strangers just adds to that.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Malakili on January 06, 2015, 05:08:39 PM
None of the designs that have come along the way since have offered much of a reason or opportunity to socialize whil doing your thing.

Sure they have, they've just been criticized for "forced grouping."


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: sam, an eggplant on January 06, 2015, 05:27:59 PM
I don't think any non-asian MMOs have forced grouping just to level like EQ did. Everybody at least supports solo leveling.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Falconeer on January 06, 2015, 05:30:21 PM
Back to the OP, you can now sign up for the beta of thisgame, which is called CROWFALL.

http://crowfall.com/

Quote
WELCOME TO CROWFALL.
If you’re here, it’s because you’re looking for something.

Something deeper than a virtual amusement park. More impactful than a virtual sandbox. More immersive. More real. A game where decisions matter.

We are, too. We’ve been looking for years, and we still haven’t found it…. because it doesn’t exist. Yet.

OVER THE NEXT TWO MONTHS, WE'RE GOING TO BE PLAYING A GAME.
It’s not THE game; the name of THIS game is “rampant speculation.” Every few days, we’re going to be dropping hints and teasers for our upcoming new game title. We invite you to jump into our forums and challenge us. Ask questions. Debate our ideas. Make bold pronouncements about what the game might or might not be. By the end, you’ll have an idea what we’re up to… but we’re willing to bet that you’ll still be surprised, once you see it laid out in detail.

(…and if this doesn’t sound interesting to you, no problem. Check back once that timer expires, and all will be revealed with our official product announcement.)

WHO ARE YOU GUYS, AGAIN?
Our company is new, but our team has been doing this for a very long time.

J. Todd Coleman was the Creative Director of Shadowbane, Wizard101 and Pirate101.

Gordon Walton was the Executive Producer of Ultima Online, Star Wars Galaxies, and Star Wars: the Old Republic.

…and that’s just the Founders. The group we’ve brought together includes key members of practically every MMO that you’ve ever played and loved. We know how to build MMOs. Now we want to build something new. Something that’s never been done before.

We started this endeavor for you. Help us make it a (virtual) reality.

Sincerely,

J. Todd Coleman - Gordon Walton


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Rendakor on January 06, 2015, 05:38:05 PM
I think a lot of socializing moved to guild chat, voice coms and whatever 3rd party apps people use to chat with friends.  That there's not much time or incentive to socialize with strangers just adds to that.
A lot of the twitchy games prevent even that, as you often don't have a free finger to even key a voice chat program while in combat much less try to type to guild chat.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Tmon on January 06, 2015, 05:51:44 PM
Well I see there are already guilds forming so that's a good sign.  I suspect that the best part of the game for me and really the only part I will ever experience will happen in this thread.  I don't think I want anything this game is promising to deliver.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Threash on January 06, 2015, 06:34:51 PM
Where did you see that?


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Tmon on January 06, 2015, 07:18:13 PM
Go to the link Falconeer posted and click on community.  There's a guild sub forum that already had 9 posts in it when I looked earlier.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Hutch on January 06, 2015, 08:17:39 PM
Back to the OP, you can now sign up for the beta of thisgame, which is called CROWFALL.

http://crowfall.com/

Quote
OVER THE NEXT TWO MONTHS, WE'RE GOING TO BE PLAYING A GAME.

What a strange game, Professor Falken.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Triforcer on January 06, 2015, 08:28:52 PM
In other news, Crazy Quilt, Condiment King, and King Tut's diabolical new scheme is sure to destroy Batman.  


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Kageru on January 07, 2015, 07:18:03 AM
WoW changed levelling to be convenient and solo, so it got rid of the boring and the need to socialize at the same time.

To my mind City of Heroes and GW2 showed the path to a solution with content that is solo when you are but scales when you are part of a group (formally or not) and makes that scaling beneficial to all involved but not required. Though that brings it's own problems with the encounters and tactics having less identity due to the need to scale.

I'm happy to see a new MMO to follow, but I'm expecting "Vanguard", "Copernicus" or even more likely failed kick-starter when dreams and reality intersect.



Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Gimfain on January 07, 2015, 08:09:55 AM
Modern MMO's have optional socializing, the problem is that socializing doesn't happen organically like it once did. Most of the time you have to step outside the game to find others to socialize with. Part of the blame should also be on the behalf of the gaming community, many guilds are extremely insular and almost exclusively recruit through forums instead of meeting people within the game.

That's not to say that its only because of the game and the gaming community, but we old-timers tend to forget how much time it took to create social bonds within games and are very quick to blame it on the game and modern gaming community. The solution to the problem lies within ourselves, and with some effort you will find ways to socialize within most games.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Paelos on January 07, 2015, 08:54:49 AM
Modern MMO's have optional socializing, the problem is that socializing doesn't happen organically like it once did. Most of the time you have to step outside the game to find others to socialize with. Part of the blame should also be on the behalf of the gaming community, many guilds are extremely insular and almost exclusively recruit through forums instead of meeting people within the game.

That's not to say that its only because of the game and the gaming community, but we old-timers tend to forget how much time it took to create social bonds within games and are very quick to blame it on the game and modern gaming community. The solution to the problem lies within ourselves, and with some effort you will find ways to socialize within most games.

Good first post. NOW EVERYONE POKE THE NEW KID!



Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Malakili on January 07, 2015, 09:01:56 AM
The solution to the problem lies within ourselves, and with some effort you will find ways to socialize within most games.

I don't like this line of argument when it comes to games in general.  Good design will encourage the behavior you want.  The only conclusion is that developers simply don't value social interaction in the way they used to.  They want to give you the tools to play with the people you already know, but don't care nearly as much about whether or not the game encourages you to meet and interact with new people as a normal course of play.

So, while I definitely encourage people to play the way they want, designers and developers have to bear a good deal of the responsibility too.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Draegan on January 07, 2015, 09:10:26 AM
Modern MMO's have optional socializing, the problem is that socializing doesn't happen organically like it once did. Most of the time you have to step outside the game to find others to socialize with. Part of the blame should also be on the behalf of the gaming community, many guilds are extremely insular and almost exclusively recruit through forums instead of meeting people within the game.

That's not to say that its only because of the game and the gaming community, but we old-timers tend to forget how much time it took to create social bonds within games and are very quick to blame it on the game and modern gaming community. The solution to the problem lies within ourselves, and with some effort you will find ways to socialize within most games.

While that is part of the problem, a lot of games don't promote social situations. MMOs need to take a page out of Google/Facebook's book and put the same players in front of you more often. Imagine a game like WOW that doesn't have servers. As population increases, it creates new shards of the same zone and puts people in them. I think WOW does something like this a little bit now right? In any case, instead of just lumping people together randomly as they log in, these systems need to put people together with some kind of purpose.

When you enter a shard of a zone, players should be paired with others with some kind of hierarchy of conditions.
1. In your own guild.
2. On your friends list.
3. Recently in a Group with.
4. Recently interacted with (Trade/Whisper/AH)
5. Recently shared experience with (targeted same mob, did damage in the same area with)

You get the idea. The more often you see the same person, the more you are familiar with your surroundings the more likely you're going to say hello to them a second time. It's the whole big city/small town phenomenon. I'm not going to make friends with a random person in New York City. However I might make friends with a random person eventually if I see them often enough in the same coffee shop or bar that I go to.

The tricky part is finding the sweet spot on max shard population and player interaction. Because right now, technically, that's basically a "server" right now. You need to use a "collection of servers" so you can population balance across different zones and activities which is what WOW kind does now right?


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: sam, an eggplant on January 07, 2015, 09:14:59 AM
WoW does do that, yes, as does Guild Wars 2.

Shroud of the Avatar promises to do something a bit more evolved, where it not only puts you in the same world as your friends and guildmates but tries to put the same people together even with no formal relationships/interactions to promote mini communities.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Malakili on January 07, 2015, 09:20:30 AM
Is there a reason to go through all this trouble when... servers... already do this?  I guess to prevent the problem of dead/dying servers not having the necessary critical mass of people playing. In any event it doesn't seem like some brilliant design that is going to move use forward, it's just a clever solution to the problem of crappy servers. Which, while related to the issue of social interactions, doesn't seem like one of the core issues more recent MMOs have had regarding the kind of interaction we have been talking about the last couple of pages in this thread.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Gimfain on January 07, 2015, 10:46:21 AM
Lots of responses, but will try to make a general response....First of all, I was a MUD-addict in ages past, but instead of making the jump to evercrack I simply stopped playing. Later on I ended up as a WoW-addict, and nowadays I mostly just spend way too much time on forums.

In WoW, rift and Swtor I became part of gaming community just by playing the game and trying to find others and also did bit raiding with those people. The only thing I did was spend a lot of time socializing with people I grouped with. My big problem with modern themeparks isn't about being social, its that I already played them and find them boring.

As I read the responses I notice that a lot of people feel like game developers should plan ahead to promote socializing but the issue is that you don't know how people will play your game until its there. You can't even be sure about it during beta, because there is a huge difference between the community during beta and the one at release. Game developers constantly try to improve their game, but they have no idea what will happen until after they did the change. Just look at UO with trammel, SWG with holocubes or WoW with dungeon finder. They tried to change their games for the better, and ended up changing gaming communities forever.

In the end what's important is interesting gameplay since that's what makes you play the initial months. While social tools help the most important thing is that you make people work together for a common goal. Once you have common goals its quite easy to find 4-5 others to make a group, and 20-30 to make a raid. Once you got a serious guild of 20-30 its not going to be that hard to cooperate with other guilds.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Draegan on January 07, 2015, 11:48:05 AM
Is there a reason to go through all this trouble when... servers... already do this?  I guess to prevent the problem of dead/dying servers not having the necessary critical mass of people playing. In any event it doesn't seem like some brilliant design that is going to move use forward, it's just a clever solution to the problem of crappy servers. Which, while related to the issue of social interactions, doesn't seem like one of the core issues more recent MMOs have had regarding the kind of interaction we have been talking about the last couple of pages in this thread.

Servers kind of do that. But a server has a static population. You're constantly choosing from the same pool of people. Dead servers, shitty servers, dead factions all effect this. However when you constantly refresh your "shard" or whatever with new people, it gives you an ever increasing chance to meet someone you might befriend.

Also dynamic populated shards allow you to play around with population caps so you can also avoid over population to some degree.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Draegan on January 07, 2015, 11:52:28 AM
Lots of responses, but will try to make a general response....First of all, I was a MUD-addict in ages past, but instead of making the jump to evercrack I simply stopped playing. Later on I ended up as a WoW-addict, and nowadays I mostly just spend way too much time on forums.

In WoW, rift and Swtor I became part of gaming community just by playing the game and trying to find others and also did bit raiding with those people. The only thing I did was spend a lot of time socializing with people I grouped with. My big problem with modern themeparks isn't about being social, its that I already played them and find them boring.

As I read the responses I notice that a lot of people feel like game developers should plan ahead to promote socializing but the issue is that you don't know how people will play your game until its there. You can't even be sure about it during beta, because there is a huge difference between the community during beta and the one at release. Game developers constantly try to improve their game, but they have no idea what will happen until after they did the change. Just look at UO with trammel, SWG with holocubes or WoW with dungeon finder. They tried to change their games for the better, and ended up changing gaming communities forever.

In the end what's important is interesting gameplay since that's what makes you play the initial months. While social tools help the most important thing is that you make people work together for a common goal. Once you have common goals its quite easy to find 4-5 others to make a group, and 20-30 to make a raid. Once you got a serious guild of 20-30 its not going to be that hard to cooperate with other guilds.

That's an obvious statement. If a game is good it will transcend the need to have good social tools because they will develop outside the game. Social entanglement increases retention rate. Creating better social tools or dynamics just gives your game a better chance of succeeding.

As far as your statement of 4-5 others and serious guilds etc, it's all depends on your game, and if it's good. Serious raiding is dead. The majority of raiding is done in LFR/Pickup groups in WOW these days anyway from what I understand (correct me if I'm wrong). Games need better "common goals".


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Rendakor on January 07, 2015, 12:53:42 PM
The cross server dungeon finder (as well as cross server BGs and presumably LFR) hurt community building a lot in WoW because you never saw the same person twice because the pool is so big. Even if you did meet someone cool who you'd like to invite to your guild (or find a guild you want to join) that's going to cost them cash to server transfer. The devs decided instant action was better than socialization.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: WayAbvPar on January 07, 2015, 01:15:52 PM
How about and extra 'social' page on your character sheet that details every interaction you have with another player? Make it sortable, searchable, only display chosen parameters, etc. All that data exists. Give it to the players in a usable form and let them track their interactions and do with that information what they will.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Gimfain on January 07, 2015, 01:17:16 PM
...

That's an obvious statement. If a game is good it will transcend the need to have good social tools because they will develop outside the game. Social entanglement increases retention rate. Creating better social tools or dynamics just gives your game a better chance of succeeding.

As far as your statement of 4-5 others and serious guilds etc, it's all depends on your game, and if it's good. Serious raiding is dead. The majority of raiding is done in LFR/Pickup groups in WOW these days anyway from what I understand (correct me if I'm wrong). Games need better "common goals".
Its an error of perception. What changed is that pug-raiding became LFR and far more common than it ever was before, so that far more people enter "raids". When it comes to the hardest mode of raiding, it really just changed names. Instead of being naxx and sunwell, it became heroic mode and in latest expansion it was renamed mythic mode raiding, and its still the same small percentage that play that content just like it was back in the days. In many ways the raid situation was improved in WoW after the introduction of flex-raiding for "normal" and "heroic" raiding which made it easier for casual and semi-hardcore guilds to conduct raiding.

While wildstar raiding completely backfired, it was because they wanted to recreate the raiding of 2005-2006 instead of making a modern game. 40-man raiding and lots of barriers won't get more people to do raiding, it will make them turn away from the game, especially since the rest of the game was underdeveloped.

However, I completely agree that games needs new common goals since solo->group->raid centric-games has been done to death and it only fits one type of gamer and that gamer already plays WoW.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Ingmar on January 07, 2015, 01:41:55 PM
The cross server dungeon finder (as well as cross server BGs and presumably LFR) hurt community building a lot in WoW because you never saw the same person twice because the pool is so big. Even if you did meet someone cool who you'd like to invite to your guild (or find a guild you want to join) that's going to cost them cash to server transfer. The devs decided instant action was better than socialization.

I hear this all the time but I don't really buy it. I think I met as many new people from my server before and after cross-server dungeon finder; it was fewer people *per run* but the massive improvement in queue times meant you were getting more dungeons per day in so it kind of evened out.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Salamok on January 07, 2015, 01:52:16 PM
I hope they're burning their own money on this.

Why?  Coleman basically launched his career with a fantastic failure and parlayed what he learned into an overwhelming success and as a by product helped create wolfpack studios which I was under the impression was a studio held in pretty high regard.  Now I'm hoping it isn't just some sort of string of luck and the next thing continues this progression and something even better is about to be born.  The only reason I hope they are using their own money is that hopefully it results in the founding of a more permanent studio that doesn't burn bright and fast only to sell out in 4 years.  I am however a complete ignorant on all these matters and my opinion is based mostly on what I imagine the facts to be as opposed to actual real facts.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Rendakor on January 07, 2015, 02:22:14 PM
The cross server dungeon finder (as well as cross server BGs and presumably LFR) hurt community building a lot in WoW because you never saw the same person twice because the pool is so big. Even if you did meet someone cool who you'd like to invite to your guild (or find a guild you want to join) that's going to cost them cash to server transfer. The devs decided instant action was better than socialization.

I hear this all the time but I don't really buy it. I think I met as many new people from my server before and after cross-server dungeon finder; it was fewer people *per run* but the massive improvement in queue times meant you were getting more dungeons per day in so it kind of evened out.
I was on a very low pop server in a battlegroup with several high pops, so I saw someone from my server maybe once a week. As a tank, queue times didn't really change and it made it harder to recruit new players for the guild. We recruited solely people we had played with (as oppose to forums, website or chat spam) and the dungeon finder really hurt us.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Draegan on January 07, 2015, 02:49:20 PM
The cross server dungeon finder (as well as cross server BGs and presumably LFR) hurt community building a lot in WoW because you never saw the same person twice because the pool is so big. Even if you did meet someone cool who you'd like to invite to your guild (or find a guild you want to join) that's going to cost them cash to server transfer. The devs decided instant action was better than socialization.

How about and extra 'social' page on your character sheet that details every interaction you have with another player? Make it sortable, searchable, only display chosen parameters, etc. All that data exists. Give it to the players in a usable form and let them track their interactions and do with that information what they will.

You need to be proactive in populating your shards. If you group with someone in your xserver LFD group, then you should see that person in your shard. So when the next time you fill out your LFD group, it should prioritize people that you know in that group more than random people. The game really has to put those people in front of you more often.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Zetor on January 07, 2015, 02:51:56 PM
Also, you can group cross-server for pretty much everything nowadays in WOW (mythic raids are the one exception). While it's true that most of the pugs are pretty much "4 robots killing/healing/tanking stuff, only saying anything if someone fucks up", I've had some amusing conversations in random cross-server groups. It's also not uncommon for (at least some people) to stick together after a good run and queue again... or even add people to their friends list.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Merusk on January 07, 2015, 03:58:01 PM
The cross server dungeon finder (as well as cross server BGs and presumably LFR) hurt community building a lot in WoW because you never saw the same person twice because the pool is so big. Even if you did meet someone cool who you'd like to invite to your guild (or find a guild you want to join) that's going to cost them cash to server transfer. The devs decided instant action was better than socialization.

How about and extra 'social' page on your character sheet that details every interaction you have with another player? Make it sortable, searchable, only display chosen parameters, etc. All that data exists. Give it to the players in a usable form and let them track their interactions and do with that information what they will.

You need to be proactive in populating your shards. If you group with someone in your xserver LFD group, then you should see that person in your shard. So when the next time you fill out your LFD group, it should prioritize people that you know in that group more than random people. The game really has to put those people in front of you more often.

DiabloIII learned this leson and does this.  You guys need to be looking beyond WoW, which has a 10-year-old approach based on separate servers that's been patched for 10 years towards the new paradigm.

Blizzard COULD conceivably do away with all shards tomorrow in WOW but doesn't for many, many reasons.  The first being the outcry from players who identify with an unimportant server name/ identity first.  (Login to any of the merged servers and you'll see tons of conflict and tribalism based on this alone.)


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Kageru on January 07, 2015, 04:48:44 PM

If the social vehicle of the game is guilds and raiding it's no accident you get lots of closed little groups.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Draegan on January 07, 2015, 07:42:54 PM

If the social vehicle of the game is guilds and raiding it's no accident you get lots of closed little groups.

Closed little groups are a good thing though. The more tight knit your group, the more you likely you're going to keep playing after you get bored.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: KallDrexx on January 07, 2015, 10:55:16 PM
WoW changed levelling to be convenient and solo, so it got rid of the boring and the need to socialize at the same time.

To my mind City of Heroes and GW2 showed the path to a solution with content that is solo when you are but scales when you are part of a group (formally or not) and makes that scaling beneficial to all involved but not required. Though that brings it's own problems with the encounters and tactics having less identity due to the need to scale.

I'm happy to see a new MMO to follow, but I'm expecting "Vanguard", "Copernicus" or even more likely failed kick-starter when dreams and reality intersect.

GW2's model is extremely flawed though, as I never felt compelled to interact with anyone I did dynamic quests with because, well there was no real reason to work together.  This might be different very recently, since I hear the world bosses actually require real coordination (people doing different things in different parts of the map, thus requiring some communication) but literally everything for the for 6 months gave me zero desire to communicate with anyone doing the same dynamic quest as me. 

You need scaling combat but there is also something to be said for the actual formation of a physical group (whether manual or automated through LFG), and I feel like GW2 suffers because of that. 

GW2 also makes the mistake of only making you group for hard content, which discouraged me from ever doing it because I didn't want to deal with bad pugs (or be the bad pugger who never did the content before), which meant I never even cared to attempt it, meaning I never even tried to find a formalized group of people to play with. 


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Kageru on January 07, 2015, 11:26:34 PM

Scaling encounters tend to focus on "everyone DPS" because that's a simple mechanism. But for GW2 it's as much about them deciding having actual classes was old-school and uncool. There are synergies and support abilities but they're so weak no one bothers much with them and everyone is in max-DPS configurations and gear. City of Heroes did this better with definite class identities including crowd-control and buffs being very group roles.

No roles also damages group content. Though I still think the soft-grouping of events is a valid approach if you build around it and iterate on it. If they'd used their living story to generate repeating world events and more complex sequences rather than one off content the game would have gotten richer over time rather than just leaving zones with inert wreckage.

Closed little groups are a good thing though. The more tight knit your group, the more you likely you're going to keep playing after you get bored.

It's a trade off.. good for longevity and the dedicated and bad for attracting new players and the casuals.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Draegan on January 08, 2015, 08:14:58 AM


Closed little groups are a good thing though. The more tight knit your group, the more you likely you're going to keep playing after you get bored.

It's a trade off.. good for longevity and the dedicated and bad for attracting new players and the casuals.


Not in the least. You just have to design content around more than raids. The Level>Dungeon>Raid Paradigm in games is incredibly insular because there is no mingling. However, the nature of those games in burnout and boredom so players become transient and guilds are constantly recruiting. So there's that too.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Sophismata on January 08, 2015, 08:05:43 PM
Levelling is never going away, for better or for worse.  Too many people tie into that number for achievement that it's staggering (it's amazing how many people complained about getting to max level in GW1 right away, even though by that time you've still only saw 10-15% of the content).
This is an interesting point, and possibly bears repeating. I've mentioned this before, but one of the things tried early on in Guild Wars was to remove levelling entirely. Most players didn't like it.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Malakili on January 08, 2015, 08:11:42 PM
Levelling is never going away, for better or for worse.  Too many people tie into that number for achievement that it's staggering (it's amazing how many people complained about getting to max level in GW1 right away, even though by that time you've still only saw 10-15% of the content).
This is an interesting point, and possibly bears repeating. I've mentioned this before, but one of the things tried early on in Guild Wars was to remove levelling entirely. Most players didn't like it.

(http://art.penny-arcade.com/photos/807503965_rBNbP/0/1050x10000/807503965_rBNbP-1050x10000.jpg)


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Sophismata on January 08, 2015, 08:24:52 PM
Exactly. The addictive effects of levelling are very real.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Draegan on January 08, 2015, 08:37:44 PM
I'm glad your imagination is that shallow.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Lantyssa on January 09, 2015, 10:18:18 AM
I loved GW's shallow leveling curve.  I don't need dings to keep me interested, I need good game play.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Draegan on January 09, 2015, 12:45:32 PM
Players need progression. They need to be shown that after X hours of playtime they got somewhere. Whether that is getting more powerful, whether it's getting a new title, whether it's progressing a storyline; it's something. It's a basic principle of gaming. Levels are just the easiest path to do it.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Malakili on January 09, 2015, 01:43:05 PM
Players need progression. They need to be shown that after X hours of playtime they got somewhere. Whether that is getting more powerful, whether it's getting a new title, whether it's progressing a storyline; it's something. It's a basic principle of gaming. Levels are just the easiest path to do it.

Counter Strike was the most popular multiplayer game in the world for a decade and it had no progression to speak of.  Sure, you have the "progression" of your personal skill, but you have that with any game by default.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Draegan on January 09, 2015, 01:47:20 PM
Players need progression. They need to be shown that after X hours of playtime they got somewhere. Whether that is getting more powerful, whether it's getting a new title, whether it's progressing a storyline; it's something. It's a basic principle of gaming. Levels are just the easiest path to do it.

Counter Strike was the most popular multiplayer game in the world for a decade and it had no progression to speak of.  Sure, you have the "progression" of your personal skill, but you have that with any game by default.

Yeah and? Your comparing two different types of games. In any case, doesn't CS:GO have a progression system now?


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Malakili on January 09, 2015, 02:47:36 PM
Players need progression. They need to be shown that after X hours of playtime they got somewhere. Whether that is getting more powerful, whether it's getting a new title, whether it's progressing a storyline; it's something. It's a basic principle of gaming. Levels are just the easiest path to do it.

Counter Strike was the most popular multiplayer game in the world for a decade and it had no progression to speak of.  Sure, you have the "progression" of your personal skill, but you have that with any game by default.

Yeah and? Your comparing two different types of games. In any case, doesn't CS:GO have a progression system now?

CS GO has competitive ranking, but it doesn't have progression or unlocks.  It does have random gun skins, but they aren't progression related. 

But the point is, progression isn't necessary for a game to be popular.  Progression is an RPG thing.  But MMO is not the same thing as RPG.  Unfortunately the two were so related for so long that it seems like every MMO has to include RPG style progression.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Draegan on January 09, 2015, 03:05:34 PM
Players need progression. They need to be shown that after X hours of playtime they got somewhere. Whether that is getting more powerful, whether it's getting a new title, whether it's progressing a storyline; it's something. It's a basic principle of gaming. Levels are just the easiest path to do it.

Counter Strike was the most popular multiplayer game in the world for a decade and it had no progression to speak of.  Sure, you have the "progression" of your personal skill, but you have that with any game by default.

Yeah and? Your comparing two different types of games. In any case, doesn't CS:GO have a progression system now?

CS GO has competitive ranking, but it doesn't have progression or unlocks.  It does have random gun skins, but they aren't progression related. 

But the point is, progression isn't necessary for a game to be popular.  Progression is an RPG thing.  But MMO is not the same thing as RPG.  Unfortunately the two were so related for so long that it seems like every MMO has to include RPG style progression.

Eh?

1) Never said progression is required to be popular. But getting better at a game is progression in itself.
2) Progression is not just an RPG thing. A shit load of shooters have that shit these days.
3) Competitive ranking is progression for players. Collecting skins is a form of progression by "collecting things".
4) All MMOS are RPGs for the most part, the only different is the level of persistence. Name me an MMO that doesn't have RPG elements in some fashion.

Maybe you shouldn't reply at all, your splitting hairs and this smells like a game of semantics.
So nevermind.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Malakili on January 09, 2015, 04:00:09 PM
You literally called progression a "basic principle of gaming."  If you're counting individual player skill as "progression" then fine I guess, but that isn't what we were talking about so it seems like a stretch.  I've been pretty upset about the introduction of those kind of mechanics into other genres (like the shooters you mention).  I think it has no place there.  But then you're saying the practically everything is progression, so at that point why even bother talking about it.  Every mechanic is progression!

We were talking about the leveling as progression in RPGs and how alternative systems might make for more interesting games.  But I guess your reductive way of looking at things means nothing matters, because progression is progression is progression. 

So let's be specific: What I want is games that have far less emphasis on my character increasing arbitrarily in power based on how long I've played the game.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: tazelbain on January 09, 2015, 04:02:58 PM
I wish the debates around here would have some progression.  :awesome_for_real:


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Lantyssa on January 09, 2015, 04:22:26 PM
Progression isn't necessary for something to be a game. ;D


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Triforcer on January 09, 2015, 04:25:43 PM
You literally called progression a "basic principle of gaming."  If you're counting individual player skill as "progression" then fine I guess, but that isn't what we were talking about so it seems like a stretch.  I've been pretty upset about the introduction of those kind of mechanics into other genres (like the shooters you mention).  I think it has no place there.  But then you're saying the practically everything is progression, so at that point why even bother talking about it.  Every mechanic is progression!

We were talking about the leveling as progression in RPGs and how alternative systems might make for more interesting games.  But I guess your reductive way of looking at things means nothing matters, because progression is progression is progression.  

So let's be specific: What I want is games that have far less emphasis on my character increasing arbitrarily in power based on how long I've played the game.

I've always wondered why you couldn't have more Zelda-esque  MMO "progression"- i.e., not really based on levels or even skill-ups, but based on soft gating factors (you need the boomerang to open the next dungeon, etc.).  The dream MMO in my head is a steampunk/fantasy pirate airship MMO inspired by Skies of Arcadia and Wind Waker.  Have a very low amount of NPC difficulty scale-up, but gate some of the air islands (or some of the content on every otherwise explorable island) with gadgets, etc. that you can only get on the other side of the universe.   Expand characters sideways in a TF2 or Battlefield sort of way, but even a starting character could see (and fight) a lot of the universe without a need for hundreds of hours of levelups or skillups.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Pennilenko on January 09, 2015, 05:05:25 PM
I've always wondered why you couldn't have more Zelda-esque  MMO "progression"- i.e., not really based on levels or even skill-ups, but based on soft gating factors (you need the boomerang to open the next dungeon, etc.).  The dream MMO in my head is a steampunk/fantasy pirate airship MMO inspired by Skies of Arcadia and Wind Waker.  Have a very low amount of NPC difficulty scale-up, but gate some of the air islands (or some of the content on every otherwise explorable island) with gadgets, etc. that you can only get on the other side of the universe.   Expand characters sideways in a TF2 or Battlefield sort of way, but even a starting character could see (and fight) a lot of the universe without a need for hundreds of hours of levelups or skillups.
I would play that.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Fordel on January 09, 2015, 05:08:08 PM
We don't get anywhere near enough Zelda like single-player games and you want the chucklefucks to make a Zelda like MMO. Yea  :why_so_serious:


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Soulflame on January 09, 2015, 05:18:38 PM
No one wants to run the discussion raid anymore.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: KallDrexx on January 09, 2015, 07:44:40 PM
You literally called progression a "basic principle of gaming."  If you're counting individual player skill as "progression" then fine I guess, but that isn't what we were talking about so it seems like a stretch.  I've been pretty upset about the introduction of those kind of mechanics into other genres (like the shooters you mention).  I think it has no place there.  But then you're saying the practically everything is progression, so at that point why even bother talking about it.  Every mechanic is progression!

We were talking about the leveling as progression in RPGs and how alternative systems might make for more interesting games.  But I guess your reductive way of looking at things means nothing matters, because progression is progression is progression.  

So let's be specific: What I want is games that have far less emphasis on my character increasing arbitrarily in power based on how long I've played the game.

I've always wondered why you couldn't have more Zelda-esque  MMO "progression"- i.e., not really based on levels or even skill-ups, but based on soft gating factors (you need the boomerang to open the next dungeon, etc.).  The dream MMO in my head is a steampunk/fantasy pirate airship MMO inspired by Skies of Arcadia and Wind Waker.  Have a very low amount of NPC difficulty scale-up, but gate some of the air islands (or some of the content on every otherwise explorable island) with gadgets, etc. that you can only get on the other side of the universe.   Expand characters sideways in a TF2 or Battlefield sort of way, but even a starting character could see (and fight) a lot of the universe without a need for hundreds of hours of levelups or skillups.

Sooooo

You want a whole game based around attunements?


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Rendakor on January 09, 2015, 07:59:28 PM
I think it's cute that people still have "dream MMOs."


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Triforcer on January 09, 2015, 08:06:20 PM
You literally called progression a "basic principle of gaming."  If you're counting individual player skill as "progression" then fine I guess, but that isn't what we were talking about so it seems like a stretch.  I've been pretty upset about the introduction of those kind of mechanics into other genres (like the shooters you mention).  I think it has no place there.  But then you're saying the practically everything is progression, so at that point why even bother talking about it.  Every mechanic is progression!

We were talking about the leveling as progression in RPGs and how alternative systems might make for more interesting games.  But I guess your reductive way of looking at things means nothing matters, because progression is progression is progression.  

So let's be specific: What I want is games that have far less emphasis on my character increasing arbitrarily in power based on how long I've played the game.

I've always wondered why you couldn't have more Zelda-esque  MMO "progression"- i.e., not really based on levels or even skill-ups, but based on soft gating factors (you need the boomerang to open the next dungeon, etc.).  The dream MMO in my head is a steampunk/fantasy pirate airship MMO inspired by Skies of Arcadia and Wind Waker.  Have a very low amount of NPC difficulty scale-up, but gate some of the air islands (or some of the content on every otherwise explorable island) with gadgets, etc. that you can only get on the other side of the universe.   Expand characters sideways in a TF2 or Battlefield sort of way, but even a starting character could see (and fight) a lot of the universe without a need for hundreds of hours of levelups or skillups.

Sooooo

You want a whole game based around attunements?

Yes, but not in a linear progression sense.  More of a situation where there are fifty possible attunements, but they all unlock oddments here or there on otherwise explorable areas.  Again, think zelda hammer or boomerang type stuff.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Venkman on January 10, 2015, 11:10:18 PM
Or like Far Cry?  :grin:

FPS, RTS and MOBAs have since proved that the most important persistence for gamers is the account, not an always-on virtual room.

That's obviously true, but that just means gamers don't actually turn out to like what we used to call MMOs, not that MMO now includes everything with persistence.  Which is, like, every game in the world.
Right. We agree. Except I think you missed the reason i said that.

"MMO" used to be something that was different But in retrospect, MMOs were just unique in what they combined: persistence with agency wrapped in themes.

Welp, we have that in spades now. Even the simples match 3 thing has it.

Try to get better
See a metric that says you're getting better
Have a goal that comes when you've gotten measurably better
Do so in the presence of others

That's core "MMO" 15 years ago. Or, most modern games  now.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Malakili on January 10, 2015, 11:45:31 PM
See, I never looked at MMOs that way.  The important thing about MMOs, to me, was always that the world was always going on.  I could miss something that I was not logged in for.  There is something intriguing about that in a game. Maybe that's why EVE and WW2 Online are/were my favorite MMOs. 


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: tmp on January 11, 2015, 06:22:53 AM
I wish the debates around here would have some progression.  :awesome_for_real:
Whaddya mean "would", don't you see the pages counter increase as they continue? :why_so_serious:


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Lantyssa on January 11, 2015, 10:16:10 AM
This level 6 thread dreams of one day becoming the level 200 juggernaut that SWG threads can spawn.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: KallDrexx on January 11, 2015, 10:25:59 AM
Yes, but not in a linear progression sense.  More of a situation where there are fifty possible attunements, but they all unlock oddments here or there on otherwise explorable areas.  Again, think zelda hammer or boomerang type stuff.

Except the idea of attunements work great in a game like Zelda where you are only restricted by your own progress.  Attunements in MMOs are usually not very well received because it adds another restriction of what you can do with other people, because not only do *you* need the attunement, everyone you want to play with needs that attunement.

Levels already add a huge barrier to entry for friends trying to play together but at least it's somewhat of an expected barrier (and it's easier to keep track of, you are level X I'm level Y, if it's a difference of Z we should be able to group without wasting time).  What you are talking about means that in order for us to determine if we can play together without one of us wasting time we have to spend time comparing quests and figure out which attunement I need to help you out with (which will most likely add zero progression for myself).

It's a flawed system in a multiplayer game


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Malakili on January 11, 2015, 10:30:24 AM
I mean, you can always help the person do the attunement if they are your friend or guildmate.  God knows how many times I did jailbreak over the years. :why_so_serious:


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Rendakor on January 11, 2015, 01:44:15 PM
Some attunements only require one person in the group/raid to have completed it.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Draegan on January 11, 2015, 07:33:41 PM
All mmos have attunement. Attunements are just hard points in progression. You need level x before heroic dungeons. You need some ilevel for a raid or dungeon. I never understood why people disliked attunments as a general rule.

I mean sure, some attunments are stupid and a pain in the ass, but so is a really steep leveling curve or shitty kill 10 rat quests.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Malakili on January 11, 2015, 07:59:43 PM
All mmos have attunement. Attunements are just hard points in progression. You need level x before heroic dungeons. You need some ilevel for a raid or dungeon. I never understood why people disliked attunments as a general rule.

I mean sure, some attunments are stupid and a pain in the ass, but so is a really steep leveling curve or shitty kill 10 rat quests.

Because people associate it with long seemingly unrelated quest chains that they had to complete in vanilla WoW so they could do the raids.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Draegan on January 11, 2015, 08:45:31 PM
All mmos have attunement. Attunements are just hard points in progression. You need level x before heroic dungeons. You need some ilevel for a raid or dungeon. I never understood why people disliked attunments as a general rule.

I mean sure, some attunments are stupid and a pain in the ass, but so is a really steep leveling curve or shitty kill 10 rat quests.

Because people associate it with long seemingly unrelated quest chains that they had to complete in vanilla WoW so they could do the raids.

Oh, I wasn't aware that every single player playing MMOs or wants to has experience that singular even from 10 years ago.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Malakili on January 11, 2015, 09:31:01 PM
Most of the people around here likely do.  Think about where this conversation is happening.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Threash on January 11, 2015, 09:48:44 PM
I wonder how far this thread will go before the countdown is done and they announce their crowdfunding pitch.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Hutch on January 11, 2015, 09:57:09 PM
You can't enter the Vaults of Kickstarter unless your thread is at least level 12.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: KallDrexx on January 11, 2015, 11:12:25 PM
My point was that the idea that was floated of having an mmo where the sole progression is akin to what people think of as attunement (using Zelda as an example) is a terrible idea that has many examples for why it will fall.

Leveling as a form of attunement can be debated, but it is irellevant to this discussion because it's not what people think of as attunement, and perception is everything.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Bzalthek on January 12, 2015, 09:09:42 AM
I'm ready for an MMO that just trolls the user base.  No levels, just periodic stat increases that are accompanied by a level up sound.  The numbers are hidden, no one knows how much a stat increases certain skills, and even if you parse that shit, each point in a stat yields different gains.  Even better, make the gain RNG.  You can even subdivide and micromanage skills.  Put a point into fireball?  Ok, you did that 10 times already?  Now you have to put points into fireball range, fireball diameter, fireball damage.  Ow, I think I just got cancer.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: HaemishM on January 12, 2015, 01:04:07 PM
I would posit that the entirety of MMO development has been one long collective troll, but really it's just a litany of incompetence.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: angry.bob on January 12, 2015, 02:15:35 PM
Now you have to put points into fireball range, fireball diameter, fireball damage.  Ow, I think I just got cancer.

If you're implying that reaching level 100 out of 100 and a bunch of people wouldn't have put all points into fireball attributes to have one, awesome spell you're crazy. Of course it would have to be designed in such a way that the blast diameter is larger than the range unless people dump tons of points into range.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Paelos on January 12, 2015, 02:21:47 PM
The ultimate troll would be that a completely maxxed out fireball spell that takes 2,000 hours to achieve actually has a blast radius so big it kills you on cast.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Bzalthek on January 12, 2015, 03:29:07 PM
Yeah, but that other guy put all his points into fire resistance!


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Samprimary on January 13, 2015, 06:47:36 AM
The ultimate troll would be that a completely maxxed out fireball spell that takes 2,000 hours to achieve actually has a blast radius so big it kills you on cast.


A faction in the game is grinding out a single player to be their Big Bertha from Total Annihilation.

The enemy factions essentially have to destroy this character before he comes online and can begin shelling them from across the world map, or they will lose.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Teleku on January 13, 2015, 10:45:11 AM
I would play this hypothetical game you guys are designing.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Paelos on January 13, 2015, 10:53:09 AM
Meanwhile, you start with only one zone. You have to unlock other zones through a bunch of collection quests against other servers, and a raid event that will crash the server every time you start it.

The server that comes in last gets erased.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Bzalthek on January 13, 2015, 11:14:06 AM
I need 5 more points in poison resistance before I can go into the new zone without taking constant damage every tick from the atmosphere!


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: schild on January 13, 2015, 04:45:09 PM
Crowfall, because that's what they've been eating for a decade. Never has there been a more fitting name.

I would like all old people to immediately stop. What you ask? Everything.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Nebu on January 13, 2015, 06:04:42 PM
I would like all old people to immediately stop. What you ask? Everything.

No cancer meds for you!   :geezer:


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: WayAbvPar on January 13, 2015, 06:42:04 PM
I would like all old people to immediately stop. What you ask? Everything.

No cancer meds for you!   :geezer:

Meds are the problem. Give us the cure, you bastards!

The recent story about being able to track mDNA being transmitted cell to cell was pretty interesting...I wonder if that will be the key.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Threash on January 14, 2015, 11:04:10 AM
Hey look, an actual screenshot (http://community.crowfall.com/index.php?/topic/641-011315-character-creation-preview/)


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Gimfain on January 14, 2015, 12:12:05 PM
City siege Concept (http://community.crowfall.com/public/Crowfall_CitySiegeConcept.jpg)


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: sam, an eggplant on January 14, 2015, 12:34:51 PM
I'm stag-man, all the way.

All these years and nobody thought to anthropomorphize deer in a RPG! It's a brave new world opening in front of us, gentlemen.

(Asian furgames do not count, please do not post counterexamples.)


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Tmon on January 14, 2015, 12:35:36 PM
I see they have a hunger resistance stat, which implies that you'll have to spend time keeping yourself fed.  I can't see that being fun, but then I don't think I'm their target audience.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: sam, an eggplant on January 14, 2015, 12:37:24 PM
It's a hint, they got the IP and are pivoting to make a Hunger Games MMORPG. Combat is deemphasized in favor of brooding, depression, high fashion, heavy-handed references to the French revolution, and romantic love triangles.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Threash on January 14, 2015, 01:13:31 PM
I want to be whatever the fat animal the sword is covering is.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Hutch on January 14, 2015, 01:15:25 PM
I see they have a hunger resistance stat, which implies that you'll have to spend time keeping yourself fed.  I can't see that being fun, but then I don't think I'm their target audience.
It depends. If you can buy food from a vendor, it's little more than a gold sink. If you have to farm and craft your food (or pay someone to do it) then it becomes a chore.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Paelos on January 14, 2015, 01:27:23 PM
I want to be whatever the fat animal the sword is covering is.

My guess is goat.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Hutch on January 14, 2015, 01:31:36 PM
Minotaur.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Paelos on January 14, 2015, 01:32:46 PM
I would prefer it be a turkey. A race of turkeys hasn't been done yet in a game has it?


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: WayAbvPar on January 14, 2015, 01:37:23 PM
Civ V has the Ottoman Empire.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Paelos on January 14, 2015, 01:51:53 PM
Civ V has the Ottoman Empire.

OH HO HO


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Ingmar on January 14, 2015, 02:04:41 PM
I'm stag-man, all the way.

All these years and nobody thought to anthropomorphize deer in a RPG! It's a brave new world opening in front of us, gentlemen.

(Asian furgames do not count, please do not post counterexamples.)

DAOC did it first again.  :why_so_serious:



Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Nevermore on January 14, 2015, 02:09:42 PM
I'm ready for an MMO that just trolls the user base.  No levels, just periodic stat increases that are accompanied by a level up sound.  The numbers are hidden, no one knows how much a stat increases certain skills, and even if you parse that shit, each point in a stat yields different gains.  Even better, make the gain RNG.  You can even subdivide and micromanage skills.  Put a point into fireball?  Ok, you did that 10 times already?  Now you have to put points into fireball range, fireball diameter, fireball damage.  Ow, I think I just got cancer.

So Eve Online?  :why_so_serious:


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Bzalthek on January 14, 2015, 03:02:17 PM
...

So Eve Online?  :why_so_serious:

Not quite.  I'm still convinced Eve Online is just a ploy by HR Block to farm out tax return filing.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: sam, an eggplant on January 14, 2015, 03:57:37 PM
The best part of EVE online is reading the awesome stories about the intrigue, betrayal, and in-game drama it generates.

The worst part of EVE online is playing EVE online.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Falconeer on January 14, 2015, 04:25:52 PM
Hey look, an actual screenshot (http://community.crowfall.com/index.php?/topic/641-011315-character-creation-preview/)

Fuck that style. They probably found the only way to drive me off a hardcore PvP MMO.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: WayAbvPar on January 14, 2015, 04:44:21 PM
Hey look, an actual screenshot (http://community.crowfall.com/index.php?/topic/641-011315-character-creation-preview/)

Fuck that style. They probably found the only way to drive me off a hardcore PvP MMO.

Agreed. That looks like Skylanders: The MMOG. My 6 year old would love it.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Malakili on January 14, 2015, 04:48:40 PM
Hey look, an actual screenshot (http://community.crowfall.com/index.php?/topic/641-011315-character-creation-preview/)

Fuck that style. They probably found the only way to drive me off a hardcore PvP MMO.


I'm actually quite the opposite.  That route tells me they aren't so wedded to "realism" that can't be achieved with a low budget anyway that they could actually have some sense as a development team.

Or maybe the game will just suck either way.  Yeah, it's probably this one.  I can't see a game called Crowfall doing well.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Fordel on January 14, 2015, 05:02:24 PM
I'm stag-man, all the way.

All these years and nobody thought to anthropomorphize deer in a RPG! It's a brave new world opening in front of us, gentlemen.

(Asian furgames do not count, please do not post counterexamples.)

DAOC did it first again.  :why_so_serious:






I like the art style just fine from the actual game.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Threash on January 14, 2015, 05:06:17 PM
I don't see anything wrong with their art style, it tells me they are planning for having tons of characters on screen while still having a pleasant style.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Falconeer on January 14, 2015, 05:16:26 PM
It's not wrong or right, it's a matter of personal taste. I *personally* DETEST & DESPISE what in the western hemisphere seems to be known as "cartoon style".


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Tmon on January 14, 2015, 05:24:15 PM
To me the style suggests mobile game.  Not sure why, but that was my first thought when I saw the character creator screen.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: WayAbvPar on January 14, 2015, 05:33:11 PM
It's not wrong or right, it's a matter of personal taste. I *personally* DETEST & DESPISE what in the western hemisphere seems to be known as "cartoon style".

Preach on, my brotha. HATE HATE HATE that shit.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: HaemishM on January 14, 2015, 05:50:35 PM
I'm ambivalent about the art style. It reminds me of a lot of MOBA's that have been coming out recently - especially TOME and STRIFE (you have to all caps MOBA game titles apparently). How it animates is crucial to that type of style, though. Janky animation will make it look even shittier.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Falconeer on January 14, 2015, 06:03:30 PM
I might be wrong but I think that some of the icons on the right part of that screenshots are taken from Shadowbane too.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Yegolev on January 14, 2015, 09:04:10 PM
All of the style elements are stolen from somewhere else.  Looks like Torchlight to me.

This might seem an odd question, but what is "cartoon style" called in non-western places?


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Triforcer on January 14, 2015, 10:46:18 PM
Screenshot looks fine to me.  In a hardcore pvp mmo, anything that produces a non slideshow is by definition great.  I didn't think the play2crush and "anything that doesn't show a perfect reflection of the entire zone in every puddle of water suxxx" venn diagrams had much overlap for that basic reason.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: tmp on January 14, 2015, 11:48:05 PM
Eh, that just looks like a millionth game copying the "WoW style". I'm all out of fucks and outrage to give. :uhrr:


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: ezrast on January 15, 2015, 12:06:46 AM
Hey look, an actual screenshot (http://community.crowfall.com/index.php?/topic/641-011315-character-creation-preview/)

Fuck that style. They probably found the only way to drive me off a hardcore PvP MMO.


I'm actually quite the opposite.  That route tells me they aren't so wedded to "realism" that can't be achieved with a low budget anyway that they could actually have some sense as a development team.

Or maybe the game will just suck either way.  Yeah, it's probably this one.  I can't see a game called Crowfall doing well.
Those were pretty much my thoughts as well. Part of me even wants to believe that they intentionally chose the goofiest-ass name they could think of to go along with the art style. It's almost like they're self-aware.

I do really like that "Dash Count" is a primary stat.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Gimfain on January 15, 2015, 04:10:44 AM
Cartoony style isn't particularly interesting but it allows you to make low resolution characters that doesn't look awful. While it might not be interesting while you grind sheep intestines and stare at your female characters bum all day but its important for mass battles when an immense number of players are on the screen at the same time. Its hard not to forget Aion when everyone turned invisible during the big scale abyss fights.

Gameplay and performance trumps graphics and aesthetics.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Falconeer on January 15, 2015, 04:45:19 AM
In a hardcore pvp mmo, anything that produces a non slideshow is by definition great.

No MMO has been a slideshow even with lots of people on screen since... Age of Conan and Aion? 2008? That was SEVEN years ago. In recent times Guild Wars 2, Elder Scrolls Online or even Archeage proved that you don't need shitty graphics to have 100+ people on screen butchering each other. The "slideshow" excuse is old and belongs to ancient times. You should stop believing it.

Also, you can make simplified models without resorting to "cartoon" style. I am not an artist, the burden of creativity is on them, sorry, and clearly they are kind of short on it.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Falconeer on January 15, 2015, 04:53:32 AM
This might seem an odd question, but what is "cartoon style" called in non-western places?

I don't know? Crap?


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Azazel on January 15, 2015, 05:10:00 AM
When the alternative is all too often the soulless crap of EQ2/Vanguard et al, I'll go for the WoW/Torchlight-inspired look every time.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Draegan on January 15, 2015, 09:04:01 AM
This coming from a guy in love with SMITE's graphics. Beauty is certainly in the eye of the beholder.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Malakili on January 15, 2015, 09:07:59 AM
When the alternative is all too often the soulless crap of EQ2/Vanguard et al, I'll go for the WoW/Torchlight-inspired look every time.

Yeah, I 100% agree with this.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Falconeer on January 15, 2015, 09:10:10 AM
This coming from a guy in love with SMITE's graphics. Beauty is certainly in the eye of the beholder.

Not in love. I think it's good and on par when not better than similar and more popular games, and so are the animations. If you say "graphics and animations are terrible" (which is what you said) that calls for a reality check, especially since you are apparently questioning the quality and not the style.

EDIT: Also, thanks for mentioning SMITE which is one out of a possible million examples of how to make colourful and not-so-realistic graphics that don't have much in common neither with EQ2 and Vanguard nor with WoW and cartoons. There's a lot of in-betweens you know? It's sad when no one even tries anymore.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Draegan on January 15, 2015, 09:47:04 AM
This coming from a guy in love with SMITE's graphics. Beauty is certainly in the eye of the beholder.

Not in love. I think it's good and on par when not better than similar and more popular games, and so are the animations. If you say "graphics and animations are terrible" (which is what you said) that calls for a reality check, especially since you are apparently questioning the quality and not the style.

EDIT: Also, thanks for mentioning SMITE which is one out of a possible million examples of how to make colourful and not-so-realistic graphics that don't have much in common neither with EQ2 and Vanguard nor with WoW and cartoons. There's a lot of in-betweens you know? It's sad when no one even tries anymore.

Again it's opinion because i don't think those screens look like crap either.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Nija on January 15, 2015, 10:30:12 AM
In recent times Guild Wars 2, Elder Scrolls Online or even Archeage proved that you don't need shitty graphics to have 100+ people on screen butchering each other.

Dude, you couldn't SEE most of the people in GW2. They didn't fix that for the first year of release! I spent the first month of the game using area effect skills at the ground because the players wouldn't ever load.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Falconeer on January 15, 2015, 10:47:59 AM
Yes, me too, and they fixed it and it has been fixed for two years now. "We have the technology!"


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: tmp on January 15, 2015, 11:54:16 AM
Also, thanks for mentioning SMITE which is one out of a possible million examples of how to make colourful and not-so-realistic graphics that don't have much in common neither with EQ2 and Vanguard nor with WoW and cartoons. There's a lot of in-betweens you know? It's sad when no one even tries anymore.
Are you serious? Because I just had a quick look, and if I wasn't told beforehand that's supposed to be a different game, between the style, the UI, combat graphics and the out-of-game artwork you'd easily make me believe that's just some new WoW expansion (post their graphics update(s) in particular)


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Threash on January 15, 2015, 12:09:34 PM
SMITE looks a lot closer to WoW than that screenshot does.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Paelos on January 15, 2015, 01:02:55 PM
I dislike MMOs that chase the "realism" graphics because of logistical issues, and because it ends up looking really dated in the span of 5 years. At which point they have to waste time updating it. Also graphics whoooooooooooooooores.  :why_so_serious:


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: tmp on January 15, 2015, 01:11:13 PM
I dislike MMOs that chase the "realism" graphics because of logistical issues, and because it ends up looking really dated in the span of 5 years. At which point they have to waste time updating it. Also graphics whoooooooooooooooores.  :why_so_serious:
Well, WoW might've bought itself some 5 extra years with the cartoonish style but still ended up looking dated to the point they went through upgrades :grin:


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Paelos on January 15, 2015, 01:26:51 PM
10 years is fine. Nothing you design will last beyond that graphically without looking dated.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Hutch on January 15, 2015, 05:55:42 PM
More sizzle (http://community.crowfall.com/index.php?/topic/740-011515-templars-champions-and-a-cryptic-tree/)

Pictures of a couple more classes, plus their guild crests (or whatever they are) arranged in a "tree".

At least these guys had some art ready to go before they made their announcement  :why_so_serious:


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Ingmar on January 15, 2015, 06:23:45 PM
In a hardcore pvp mmo, anything that produces a non slideshow is by definition great.

No MMO has been a slideshow even with lots of people on screen since... Age of Conan and Aion? 2008? That was SEVEN years ago. In recent times Guild Wars 2, Elder Scrolls Online or even Archeage proved that you don't need shitty graphics to have 100+ people on screen butchering each other. The "slideshow" excuse is old and belongs to ancient times. You should stop believing it.

Culling may have been worse than slideshows, really.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Threash on January 15, 2015, 06:45:26 PM
Besides culling no MMO since shadowbane has gone for the numbers of people in a battle that shadowbane had.  If those graphics are what it takes to put 500 people on screen then i will gladly take them.  Not that there is anything wrong with them anyways.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Draegan on January 15, 2015, 07:02:17 PM
Mass PvP like that is just zerg and boring.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Threash on January 15, 2015, 07:06:01 PM
And yet it is still by far the best pvp game i've played, and i play everything.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Draegan on January 15, 2015, 07:20:03 PM
That's probably because no PvP MMO in the last decade has had any consequences to losing outside of points (if that).  That lack of weight to your actions makes all games weak.

Anyway mass PvP vs. Small scale PvP is a matter of taste. Both have their moments.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Draegan on January 16, 2015, 08:20:12 AM
Now this is hardkore  :uhrr:

(http://i.imgur.com/0PMjbOh.png)


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: HaemishM on January 17, 2015, 12:26:47 AM
More sizzle (http://community.crowfall.com/index.php?/topic/740-011515-templars-champions-and-a-cryptic-tree/)

Pictures of a couple more classes, plus their guild crests (or whatever they are) arranged in a "tree".

At least these guys had some art ready to go before they made their announcement  :why_so_serious:

Their game already looks better than Pantheon.  :why_so_serious:


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Megrim on January 18, 2015, 02:50:14 AM
Now this is hardkore  :uhrr:

(http://i.imgur.com/0PMjbOh.png)

See, that's actually pretty funny.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: drogg on January 20, 2015, 07:37:29 PM
here's some stuff on the skeleton of the fealty system and more character customization - looks shadowbane like, big surprise!

http://community.crowfall.com/index.php?/topic/907-012015-character-creation-preview-runes-runes-runes/


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Hutch on January 20, 2015, 08:32:59 PM
Yeah, all that crowing about Taking Chances was pure edgy sizzle bullshit. This game is going to be SB v2.
Or more precisely, the Pitch For Crowdfunding For SB v2.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Threash on January 20, 2015, 08:34:18 PM
How is trying to make sb2 not taking chances?


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Hutch on January 20, 2015, 11:35:18 PM
How is trying to make sb2 not taking chances?
I didn't say they're not taking chances. I said crowing about it was bullshit.

(edited to include quote)


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Falconeer on January 21, 2015, 03:21:18 AM
They are Shadowbaning this enough to grab my interest despite the visual style. Damn.
The fealty map is very promising.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Gimfain on January 22, 2015, 10:11:46 AM
Raph Koster and Thomas "blixtev" blair added to the team. Read some of blixtev's words on interdependent crafting but we have heard it all before. Its still nice to see some veterans making an attempt of a modern sandbox instead of the usual indie and korean junk.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Threash on January 22, 2015, 11:06:18 AM
Whoa Raph is in on this? why isn't he here!


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: sam, an eggplant on January 22, 2015, 11:37:03 AM
Suddenly I'm actually interested in this, in a positive not-sneering non-sweet anticipation of IV black tar schadenfreude injection way.

Feels weird.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Falconeer on January 22, 2015, 11:38:20 AM
I am sorry, I am an old fart and I often buy bridges, but I can't pretend I am not excited now.

The Crowfall Universe, Economy/crafting & Raph Koster! (http://community.crowfall.com/index.php?/topic/979-012215-the-crowfall-universe-economycrafting-raph-koster/)

Raph introduction video. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zltIihDcuQY)


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Malakili on January 22, 2015, 11:47:52 AM
I guess I'll give it the hometown benefit of the doubt for now, then.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Goreschach on January 22, 2015, 11:53:49 AM
bootlickers


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: HaemishM on January 22, 2015, 12:05:24 PM
If they can make a Shadowbane 2.0 that isn't a fackfucking mess of bugs and exploits, I'm all for it.

The phrase "MMOG industry veterans" does not fill me with any sort of confidence at all however. Add the word "crowdfunding" to the front of that and I'm even more skeptical. Even "successful" MMOG devs have a litany of failure to weigh them down.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: sam, an eggplant on January 22, 2015, 12:16:34 PM
Yes, and that definitely includes Raph.

Thing is, unlike most "industry vetarans", I like Raph. He has ambition to move the genre forward, rather than iterating on endless dikuclones. So yes, he failed too, but I didn't spray the walls with sticky ropes of shadenjizz when that happened.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: HaemishM on January 22, 2015, 12:23:31 PM
I like Raph too. He's all neckbeardy. Don't even mind Gordon Walton or Tyrant but I do get to laugh at this group crowdfunding a game that seems doomed to failure no matter who works on it.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Nonentity on January 22, 2015, 12:34:36 PM
Okay, Raph being involved does definitely raise my interest level from 'cautiously optimistic' to 'cautiously optimistic with CRAFTING'.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Falconeer on January 22, 2015, 12:35:51 PM
I don't like what MMORPGs have become after 2003, and I like what MMORPGs were up to 2003 instead. When WoW came out the genre took a right turn at the fork and things went the way we all know. Good for many, bad for me. It's only natural that I am all over people trying to reboot the system as if it were 2003, no matter who they are but even more so if they are exactly the same people I liked back then. It's like someone is trying to go back in time and build a dystopian 2005 in which, instead of being shut down because the masses flocked behind the WoW jesus, you could develop another sandbox on the ashes of UO, SWG, Shadowbane and with the lessons learned from EVE. Four of my favourite games ever? Sign me in.

Do I believe they will be able to deliver the game they are talking about? Not at all. No, no and no. This could easily be another Star Citizen, minus the money.
But I certainly wish they'll make it.

And just a final addition: coherently with what I said a few pages ago, I don't think the game will fail to go anywhere because there aren't enough people willing to play this or because they will be unable to make it work. But because chances are they won't be able to manage the balance between expenses and incomes, and juggle between what is the most they can afford to spend on this compared to how many people are really willing to pay for it. Of course there is a market for this game, but it's not a large one. If you spend more making it than what is reasonable to expect to ever collect, then there's no point. And this, I am sure, is the part where they'll almost certainly botch it.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: schild on January 22, 2015, 12:42:54 PM
I guess I'll give it the hometown benefit of the doubt for now, then.
Nope. This is still stupid.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Rasix on January 22, 2015, 12:50:34 PM
I'm sure they have an elegant solution for all of the problems of these past endeavors and the technical hurdles are now more easily overcome.  Plus, Raph and PVP, what could go wrong?

(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/82533/laughingbaby.gif)



Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Falconeer on January 22, 2015, 12:51:42 PM
COME ON WE ALL KNOW THEY WILL FAIL.

But.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Xanthippe on January 22, 2015, 12:51:54 PM
I'm looking forward to it.

My expectations for mmos are pretty low these days. It's nice to actually have something to look forward to, even if it only accomplishes a fraction of what's being talked about now.

People's past failures don't bother me a whole lot - successes are built upon failures, and failures show that people are willing to try new things. It's a hell of a lot easier to be a critic than a creator. (I know, as someone with a great deal of experience as a critic, and a great deal less as a creator).



Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: WayAbvPar on January 22, 2015, 01:02:17 PM
Does this mean pre-casting will be in at launch?


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Threash on January 22, 2015, 01:35:13 PM
Just give me a shadowbane with 2015 polish and graphics and i will shovel money at you until i'm living under a (wifi enabled) bridge.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: Malakili on January 22, 2015, 01:40:22 PM
Can someone put the name of the game in the thread title somewhere?


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Hutch on January 22, 2015, 02:07:14 PM
Done.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: ezrast on January 22, 2015, 02:10:55 PM
Whoa Raph is in on this? why isn't he here!
Sounds like you just answered your own question.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Paelos on January 22, 2015, 02:30:46 PM
Raph only answers questions about Meatspace and guitar. Possibly fish.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Goreschach on January 22, 2015, 02:48:48 PM
Those aren't fish, they're just furniture for his seaweed.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Lantyssa on January 22, 2015, 02:56:40 PM
;D


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Lucas on January 22, 2015, 02:59:04 PM
I was not supposed to get remotely interested about this. Damn  :why_so_serious:


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: schild on January 22, 2015, 03:19:21 PM
You're still not supposed to be interested.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Raph on January 22, 2015, 04:15:21 PM
Raph only answers questions about Meatspace and guitar. Possibly fish.

I'll talk about my boardgames too! Once they're ready.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: HaemishM on January 22, 2015, 04:19:23 PM
I would be highly disappointed if I learned that discussions with Raph and the other Crowfall devs did not at least once contain the phrase "We're getting the band back together!"


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Rasix on January 22, 2015, 04:25:54 PM
Has there been a HAM joke yet? I feel like there should be a HAM joke in here somewhere.





Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Trippy on January 22, 2015, 04:33:21 PM
I would be highly disappointed if I learned that discussions with Raph and the other Crowfall devs did not at least once contain the phrase "We're getting the band back together!"
Still missing Rich Vogel.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Triforcer on January 22, 2015, 04:45:37 PM
I hope they call the money pitch "crowfunding."

And yeah, Raph's involvement makes me think that MAYBE this is more than two guys who created three screenshots trolling for meth money.



Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: HaemishM on January 22, 2015, 05:42:26 PM
Has there been a HAM joke yet? I feel like there should be a HAM joke in here somewhere.

HAMFall.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: schild on January 22, 2015, 08:38:25 PM
I would be highly disappointed if I learned that discussions with Raph and the other Crowfall devs did not at least once contain the phrase "We're getting the band back together!"
Still missing Rich Vogel.
If this happened, renaming it Studio Circlejerk would be a strong play.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: EWSpider on January 22, 2015, 08:39:17 PM
Well color me excited.  Shadowbane is still my favorite mmo of all time warts and all.  I'll be following this one closely!


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Teleku on January 22, 2015, 09:19:36 PM
Hrm, I have more interest in this than any mmo in a long time as well.  Happy to see Raph on board.  Unless they announce some kind of funding other than just crowd funding, however, I won't have much faith.  I don't think its possible to crowd fund the budget you need to make a full mmo of this type. 

Unless you have a cult like following of old space-sim obsessed neck beards with too much money, of course.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Velorath on January 23, 2015, 08:06:00 AM
You're still not supposed to be interested.

You thought 2014 was a bad year for games. This year is starting off with people interested in a "game" that's the spiritual successor to every MMO ever, and then you've got a bunch of other people off playing some hentai dating simulator (which I'm sure they're just enjoying ironically). Have you ever thought that maybe the plane you took back from Italy didn't actually make it back safely?


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Paelos on January 23, 2015, 08:16:40 AM
I want the term spiritual successor to be taken out back and shot.

Small sidebar.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Rendakor on January 23, 2015, 08:18:23 AM
Vel, I assure you I'm not playing HuniePop ironically.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Falconeer on January 23, 2015, 08:47:36 AM
a "game" that's the spiritual successor to every MMO ever

No, it's the successor to every MMO up to 2003. Don't line up random words.

Actually, it's the successor of every MMO up to 2003 outside of the EQ family (which includes Daoc and Anarchy Online).


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Tmon on January 23, 2015, 11:33:25 AM
So I might end up being a little bit in the target audience, but I'm afraid that this game is at least 10 years and probably more like 15 years to late for me.  The time I'm willing to commit to games these days is somewhere in the mid single digits per week.  Hell I have trouble finding 2 hours to devote to a hex draft every week.  It's starting to look interesting and I'm interested in seeing if it actually gets made, but the likelihood of me doing more than spectating via F13 threads is pretty much nil.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: tazelbain on January 23, 2015, 11:46:23 AM
What are they going to do to prevent the wolves from driving away the sheep away? If the answer is nothing, then I know exactly where this game is heading, a big smoking crater.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: sam, an eggplant on January 23, 2015, 11:57:31 AM
Add a mobile game type time-gated advancement mechanism for free players.

Call it Energy. It takes X hours to generate enough Energy to Crowform, which gives you wings allowing limited flight/gliding Tribes-style and increases your PvP damage by Y%. Energy Crystals can also be purchased in the cash shop and are freely tradeable. Crowform lasts until you die.

Each time you get a meaningful/competitive PvP kill, you generate Z% of the Energy to Crowform upon death.

Each time you are killed in PvP by a meaningful/competitive foe (ie, not the same guy 3x in a row, or a much lower powered opponent), you generate some fraction of that same Z% Energy. Losers are rewarded also.

Subscribers are always in Crowform and get a bunch of cosmetic benefits and a monthly allotment of Energy Crystals to trade for crafted components in the player-run economy.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Triforcer on January 23, 2015, 12:23:40 PM
I have a hard time linking from my phone, but a Dec. 23 venturebeat.com article say they have 17 employees and 2.35 mil in seed funding.

Assuming they raise another 2 or 3 in crowdfunding ala Camelot Unchained, that still does not sound like enough to do what they want to do.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Hutch on January 23, 2015, 12:25:33 PM
What are they going to do to prevent the wolves from driving away the sheep away? If the answer is nothing, then I know exactly where this game is heading, a big smoking crater.

http://www.play2crush.com/ (http://www.play2crush.com/)

There are going to be no wolves, and no sheep. This game is for players who relish Taking Risks, who want their Skill to Matter, and who Want Open PvP Everywhere. Play 2 Crush.

/end green text


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Paelos on January 23, 2015, 12:37:10 PM
Quote
Even if I lose, the experience won’t feel hollow. I don’t want another worthless trophy.

The answer is they want more realistic sheep.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: tazelbain on January 23, 2015, 01:57:04 PM
So Craterbane it is.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Paelos on January 23, 2015, 02:14:39 PM
If a game like this set their sights at 100k subs to make their money? They'll be just fine. If they set the mark at a million (which seems to be the goal of all stupid companies who don't realize they are niche and not WoW) they will burn.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: schild on January 23, 2015, 02:27:40 PM
Given how many top-heavy yet still underexperience and overpaid people are already involved with the project, I expect nothing more than a hilarious trainwreck. I hope Raph isn't working on equity.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Falconeer on January 23, 2015, 04:53:31 PM
If a game like this set their sights at 100k subs to make their money? They'll be just fine. If they set the mark at a million (which seems to be the goal of all stupid companies who don't realize they are niche and not WoW) they will burn.

See, my estimation of the niche at the present time is much lower. I think they should aim for 40k.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Threash on January 23, 2015, 04:54:11 PM
I think if they are thinking subs they already failed.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Nija on January 23, 2015, 05:56:40 PM
HAM HAM HAM HAM HAM HAM HAM HAM HAM HAM HAM HAM HAM HAM HAM HAM HAM HAM HAM HAM HAM HAM HAM HAM HAM HAM HAM HAM HAM HAM HAM HAM HAM HAM HAM HAM HAM HAM HAM HAM HAM HAM HAM HAM HAM HAM HAM HAM HAM HAM HAM HAM HAM HAM HAM HAM HAM HAM HAM HAM HAM HAM HAM HAM HAM HAM HAM HAM HAM HAM HAM HAM HAM HAM HAM HAM HAM HAM HAM HAM HAM HAM HAM HAM HAM HAM HAM HAM HAM HAM HAM HAM HAM HAM HAM HAM HAM HAM HAM HAM HAM HAM HAM HAM HAM HAM HAM HAM


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Lucas on January 23, 2015, 06:00:07 PM
I think if they are thinking subs they already failed.

Agreed; although you could argue that the aforementioned 40k-100k is so niche, dedicated and starving for a game like this  that they will gladly support the game with a sub ($7 - $9 per month would be reasonable, not $15 :P).


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Falconeer on January 23, 2015, 06:23:52 PM
Agreed. Make it box price and maybe a premium account of some sort for those willing to pay it.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Malakili on January 23, 2015, 07:32:43 PM
I think if they are thinking subs they already failed.

Agreed; although you could argue that the aforementioned 40k-100k is so niche, dedicated and starving for a game like this  that they will gladly support the game with a sub ($7 - $9 per month would be reasonable, not $15 :P).

I'd much prefer this kind of model.  I've yet to play a F2P MMO that kept my attention and didn't annoy me with the pricing model.  Hell, if 10 bucks a month is what you need from me to run the game, then just charge me 10 bucks a month and let me play.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Flood on January 23, 2015, 11:39:15 PM
Quote
I'd much prefer this kind of model.  I've yet to play a F2P MMO that kept my attention and didn't annoy me with the pricing model.  Hell, if 10 bucks a month is what you need from me to run the game, then just charge me 10 bucks a month and let me play.


Could not agree more.  I'll gladly pay the box fee and a reasonable monthly to enable me to just play.  Free games spend so much time finding ways to cleverly downplay the pay gates; that's resources / energy that could be spent actually making the game better.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Flood on January 23, 2015, 11:39:44 PM
D'oh double post.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: UnSub on January 24, 2015, 08:23:00 AM
This is pretty much the last gasp of "we can make a meaningful MMO" crowd.

As such, I will appreciate watching the dating, honeymoon, marriage and divorce with f13 play out, drink in hand.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Hutch on January 24, 2015, 09:14:12 AM
This is pretty much the last gasp of "we can make a meaningful MMO" crowd.

Let's hope so.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: tazelbain on January 24, 2015, 10:29:04 AM
This is pretty much the last gasp of "we can make a meaningful MMO" crowd.
I would like to point out that EvE has pvp with serve consequences and still give sheep cover to minimize their exposure.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Merusk on January 24, 2015, 10:36:29 AM
Nothing here hasn't made me laugh. Nothing.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: schild on January 24, 2015, 07:13:00 PM
As such, I will appreciate watching the dating, honeymoon, marriage and divorce with f13 play out, drink in hand.
I want to see as many threads for this as we have for Garriott's latest stillborn child.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: sam, an eggplant on January 24, 2015, 08:21:38 PM
SotA is a single-player game masquerading as a dynamically instanced B2P MMO. No reason to think it will fail to launch or find an audience. It probably won't set the world on fire, but it should do OK. And who knows, maybe it will be the next true Ultima. I'm not in the early access or beta or whatever they're calling it, but Ultima 7 is my personal Best Game of All Time.

Crowfall, on the other hand, may never launch at all. We haven't even seen the kickstarter yet.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Triforcer on January 24, 2015, 10:25:58 PM
Interesting article on crafting- http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game/1214/feature/9325/Improving-Upon-Star-Wars-Galaxies-Crafting.html/page/1

I wonder if the formula here is full loot PvP+easily craftable armor (that eventually completely deteriorates) to continually supply replacements.  Sort of like how everyone in UO had 20 replacement sets of armor in the bank. 



Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Rendakor on January 25, 2015, 12:18:35 PM
I want to play a game like this just as a crafter, for a front row seat of schadenfreude.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Shatter on January 25, 2015, 12:40:28 PM
Interesting article on crafting- http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game/1214/feature/9325/Improving-Upon-Star-Wars-Galaxies-Crafting.html/page/1

I wonder if the formula here is full loot PvP+easily craftable armor (that eventually completely deteriorates) to continually supply replacements.  Sort of like how everyone in UO had 20 replacement sets of armor in the bank. 



Wasn't that how SWG was?  If I recall your gear degraded from usage and I think you could repair it but it would lose stats and max durability or something each time you repaired.  Point is you would have to replace it eventually which kept the crafters in business. Always liked that concept since the best gear was crafted anyhow.  I always thought SWG crafting system was the best I've seen for an MMO, you could play that whole game just as a crafter if you wanted and a lot of people did. 


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Falconeer on January 25, 2015, 01:32:50 PM
I want to play a game like this just as a crafter, for a front row seat of schadenfreude.

See? They specifically say that is going to be possible, and worth it. Like in SWG and UO, and EVE. What's not to like IF they can make it? It worked for those games. Two of which are still active and with a paid subscritpion by the way, and the other was murdered prematurely after having the crafting system in question had been reoved.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Signe on January 25, 2015, 07:00:52 PM
Hey!  Crafting by Raph!  I'll play.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Lantyssa on January 26, 2015, 10:51:51 AM
Interesting article on crafting- http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game/1214/feature/9325/Improving-Upon-Star-Wars-Galaxies-Crafting.html/page/1
Dammit.  Why does the most interesting craft system in the pipelines have to be in some SB rip-off?

Curse both Raph and Triforcer for giving me an inkly of interest.  At least enough to watch how this develops.  (I've died and gone to Hell.  Triforcer is the only name I know pre-f13 because of SWG.  Now I'm re-living the nightmare of excitement and disappointment that it was.)


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Triforcer on January 26, 2015, 12:29:26 PM
Those were the days...as a geeky college freshman I had unlimited amounts of time to devote to the pre-release SWG forums.  I wish I could deny that I was feeling a teensy bit of that old time religion, but even bitter experience and the influence of f13 haven't entirely burned it away.  I'd love to hear Caella and LazyAmy's opinion on this!

On another note, the Crowfall forums are already absolutely delightful.  When someone says "Um, guys, how will FFA full loot possibly work in sieges when you die 10 times a siege?" it is met with 10 posts telling them to go back to WoW.  And even those in favor of FFA full loot are sniping at each other for insufficient purity  :grin:


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Paelos on January 26, 2015, 12:52:21 PM
The only thing that would ever make crafting interesting for me again would be if the components had different values like in SWG. As in copper ore had varying levels of quality we could find, and better quality made better items.

Until I see that, I'm never trusting another crafting system to deliver what SWG did.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: schild on January 26, 2015, 01:52:49 PM
I had a monopoly on perfect quality corn in SWG on my server.

Turns out that never mattered.

Fucking corn.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Paelos on January 26, 2015, 04:05:01 PM
I made millions in mining top quality stuff for the crafters on my server, which I believe was Enterprise.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Hutch on January 26, 2015, 04:27:10 PM
I like where this is going  :why_so_serious:


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Falconeer on January 26, 2015, 05:12:33 PM
I agree that one of the best things of SWG was the different random quality of the crafted items. I also loved how you could be just a crafter. I maxed out tailoring super fast at release and was making tons of money while my friends were leveling up adventuring. I remember that my mail box was literally exploding with orders and while I could have just quit all that at any given time, I guess playing "shopkeeper" was fun because you knew your items were somehow needed, cool, and unique. It helped that I had my own house, which I turned into my business right outside of Coronet, and that definitely added to the feeling of playing a very unique role. Maybe I wouldn't play it like this now, but I'd like to have the options. And I don't see why these people (Raph) can't do the same thing here since they did it there.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: schild on January 26, 2015, 05:14:27 PM
Let's back up, you kind of had to be a crafter in SWG. If you were playing it and not crafting, I put forward that you were playing SW:G wrong. The rest of the game was awful.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Rasix on January 26, 2015, 05:17:11 PM
I made droids.  It was awful too. Immersive and interesting, but awful.



Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Merusk on January 26, 2015, 05:34:13 PM
Just about everything was awful and a timesink. The game was a 2nd job that you paid for.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Hutch on January 26, 2015, 05:34:57 PM
And I don't see why these people (Raph) can't do the same thing here since they did it there.

Here's why: In SWG, if someone wanted to get the cloth goods that you'd produced, they had one option.
And that option wasn't to murder you, loot everything you own, and teabag your corpse.

No one is going to put up with being a walking loot bag for very long, if at all, and that is the core reason why this entire enterprise is in the early running for Best Troll of 2015.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: naum on January 26, 2015, 06:51:15 PM
I had a monopoly on perfect quality corn in SWG on my server.

Turns out that never mattered.

Fucking corn.

Play to husk!


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Ginaz on January 26, 2015, 07:00:00 PM
Let's back up, you kind of had to be a crafter in SWG. If you were playing it and not crafting, I put forward that you were playing SW:G wrong. The rest of the game was awful.

I didn't have the patience for crafting but I loved the bounty hunting system they had.  I made millions from killing other players and the only thing I took from them was XP and time, which still produced copious amounts of tears. :grin:  If I hadn't found that one thing I really enjoyed doing, I would have quit before JTL.  It was the sort of game that had a few different niche game play options that didn't have much cross over appeal.  If you enjoyed crafting, you probably didn't enjoy pvp.  If you enjoyed pvp, you probably didn't want to play as a dancer or musician.  There was a lot of player interdependency economy wise, but once whatever transaction was completed everyone went back to their own little ghetto doing their own thing.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Nonentity on January 26, 2015, 07:54:56 PM
Yeah, I basically ended up playing SW:G as an Armorer and UO as a Blacksmith/Miner.

I like crafting systems, I dunno.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: rk47 on January 26, 2015, 08:06:28 PM
real men siege in their underwears


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: tmp on January 26, 2015, 09:00:59 PM
I made droids.  It was awful too. Immersive and interesting, but awful.
I tried to make droids during my 7 day(?) trial. I think I lasted long enough to make like, 3.

I've made and actually sold a few carbine barrels for some inexplicable reason, though.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Shatter on January 26, 2015, 09:11:11 PM
I enjoyed Bio Engineer, you could make some pretty good pets for Creature Handlers and there was a lot of variety.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Lantyssa on January 26, 2015, 10:56:32 PM
If they announce a pet and pet-crafting system I'm doomed to at least try it.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Zetor on January 27, 2015, 12:43:05 AM
aww yeah, SWG crafting stories! I had a shop on Starsider selling nothing but explosives, and had a crazy in-character ad (http://starsidergalaxy.com/forum/index.php?topic=9031.msg135117#msg135117) to go with it. Then SWG decided to remove all explosives from the game...

Yeah, I went there. I just posted roleplaying stuff from SWG. If that happening in this thread is surprising or shocking in any way... I don't know what to tell you. :why_so_serious:


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Tannhauser on January 27, 2015, 05:29:34 AM
I had a little shop as close as you can put it near that mine at Minoc. Sold lots of shovels and mining equipment, also was a blacksmith there.

In SWG I had a small house right outside Anchorhead where I made...sliced goods?  Can't remember.  Crafting was the best part of the game, combat was terrible.

So I'll keep an eye on this game, but I generally don't play2crush, I play2craft.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Triforcer on January 27, 2015, 12:17:26 PM
First Archetype and (fairly skeletal) FAQ released!  

Their website is a bit wonky (it appears you have to create an account to read news items, or maybe its just me- I can't get links to work right), but the high points from the FAQ:

- No traditional MMO levels.  You can advance "actively" (probably quests, pvp, etc.) or "passively" (training skills ala Eve).  

- Character creation seems to be directly imported from Shadowbane.  Races have different starting "costs," and you can use points for Advantages ("Eagle Eye" giving bonus to bows, etc.).  I don't think Shadowbane had this, but you can also free points to dump somewhere else by giving characters Disadvantages.

- Disciplines!  The discipline mix/match game was one of my favorite parts of SB's system.  Just give me With Catlike Tread to confound the damn multibox scout bots, and I'll be happy.   The first example is "Bounty Hunter"- I guess not even bothering to change the names of SB's skills will save time  :awesome_for_real:


The first archetype (Legionnaire, vanilla melee DPS) was also unveiled.  


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Paelos on January 27, 2015, 12:32:20 PM
Prediction: Melee will suck in pvp.  :why_so_serious:


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Xanthippe on January 27, 2015, 12:40:02 PM
The older I get, and the more twitch that is in combat mechanics for games, the more terrible I am at it.

Being a retired veteran who simply crafts in an mmo sounds great to me. Other people can be the hero. I'm happy just crafting.



Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Threash on January 27, 2015, 12:44:22 PM
Prediction: Melee will suck in pvp.  :why_so_serious:

That wasn't really true in sb though.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Teleku on January 27, 2015, 01:42:57 PM
Yeah, that was my experience as well. 

I haven't played WoW since burning crusade, but back then melee tended to be the strongest in PvP (fucking Fury warriors).  Not sure if I've played an mmo in awhile where range felt like it had the big advantage it tradionally enjoyed in PvP in a long time (but I've also pretty much stopped playing MMO's in the last few years).


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Tannhauser on January 27, 2015, 04:34:03 PM
Prediction: Melee will suck in pvp.  :why_so_serious:

That wasn't really true in sb though.

I'll say this about SB, I thought they had great character classes.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: HaemishM on January 27, 2015, 04:43:50 PM
I loved the character classes and the skill system in Shadowbane. That game had so many good ideas ruined by utter clownshoes execution.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: kaid on January 27, 2015, 04:54:32 PM
I do miss my old centaur amazon from SB. I am curious how play to crush they are going to be this time. The problem with play 2 crush tends to be you wind up with the crushees getting annoyed at being crushed and leaving so you are stuck with a bunch of bored crushers who don't like fair fights so tend not to fight each other. You also tend to get one mega guild on each server that totally controls everything.

We shall see if they can learn enough from the mistakes of the past to make a run at it. I would be willing to give it a try because for the time I did play SB it really did have some fun stuff that I quite enjoyed.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Paelos on January 27, 2015, 05:43:47 PM
We need an updated stages of grief for a game with this crowd.

We start by hating it
Then move to talking about stuff that is reminiscent
Then move to Well maybe if this happens
Then get sorta up for it
Then get in beta
Then hate it again and predict failure for all involved.



Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: schild on January 28, 2015, 03:16:16 AM
We need an updated stages of grief for a game with this crowd.

We start by hating it
Then move to talking about stuff that is reminiscent
Then move to Well maybe if this happens
Then get sorta up for it
Then get in beta
Then hate it again and predict failure for all involved.
Start at step 6. Its 2015, not 2008.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Falconeer on January 28, 2015, 05:27:28 AM
Quote
"We think Crowfall is a very different flavor of MMO – internally, we call it a Throne War Simulator."


 :awesome_for_real:


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: ezrast on January 28, 2015, 05:41:18 AM
Not enough popcorn in the world.

There should be a reality show about the making of this game.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Falconeer on January 28, 2015, 05:43:16 AM
I've been asking for a reality show about the making of a major MMO since 2001. Since Anarchy Online and their launch.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Draegan on January 28, 2015, 07:53:11 AM
Not enough popcorn in the world.

There should be a reality show about the making of this game.

I really think that the amount of popcorn should be in a ratio to the amount of people who give a shit. There aren't enough people who give a shit.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Hutch on January 28, 2015, 08:39:24 AM
I don't think there's enough to make the game viable, but there are certainly enough for popcorn.

They're just not here. Everyone here knows better.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Paelos on January 28, 2015, 09:08:38 AM
We need an updated stages of grief for a game with this crowd.

We start by hating it
Then move to talking about stuff that is reminiscent
Then move to Well maybe if this happens
Then get sorta up for it
Then get in beta
Then hate it again and predict failure for all involved.
Start at step 6. Its 2015, not 2008.

So updated for 2015:

Hate it and predict failure.
Make a 30 page thread about how stupid it looks.
Have people sign up for the beta to mock it.
Keep the hate flowing.
Watch the fallout at release.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Rasix on January 28, 2015, 09:40:22 AM
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/82533/thumbsup2.gif)


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Falconeer on January 28, 2015, 11:31:09 AM
So updated for 2015:

Hate it and predict failure.
Make a 30 page thread about how stupid it looks.
Pledge money, more or less secretely.
Have people sign up for the beta to mock it.
Keep the hate flowing.
Watch the fallout at release.

Fixed it for you.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Triforcer on January 28, 2015, 12:14:30 PM
I will admit it when I donate- you are talking to someone who bought ESO collectors edition here  :oh_i_see:


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Falconeer on January 28, 2015, 12:18:41 PM
Oh I am voting with my money. I want more of these games, I am totally pledging.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: WayAbvPar on January 28, 2015, 01:27:04 PM
I am going to kick the shit out of this football this time. I swear.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Draegan on January 28, 2015, 02:25:13 PM
I don't think there's enough to make the game viable, but there are certainly enough for popcorn.

They're just not here. Everyone here knows better.

Oh there is a solid 100-300k people out there that would gladly play a game like this assuming the game isn't a piece of shit. More if the game is actually good. None of these games are ever really good though.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: sam, an eggplant on January 28, 2015, 02:29:17 PM
You never know, this could be wildly popular. Maybe Shadowbane was just way ahead of its time and meaningful PvP plus a soupçon of SWG crafting equals the next League of Legends. Doubtful, but not a zero chance.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Falconeer on January 28, 2015, 02:37:49 PM
I am going to kick the shit out of this football this time. I swear.

There hasn't been that many footballs for this Charlie Brown to kick though in the last ten years.

Cynicism is necessary, and yes this game will probably fail spectacularly because it's so much easier to fail than to succeed in this industry that even statistics is against it. But how many games of this kind have been attempted since 2003?


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: WayAbvPar on January 28, 2015, 02:42:23 PM
The key is to make the non-PVP stuff interesting and rewarding. A robust economy coupled with a large explorable world that has room for player housing, guild bases, etc. Make the PvE combat interesting/profitable enough to keep people wanting to do it even with the threat of PvP interference. Make the world large enough (and good spawns random enough) that the best PvE spots can't all be camped to death by the PvP crowd. Randomize loot so that even low or mid-level mobs can drop something amazing (but the high level mobs drop it more often).

Make loot available/trivial to lose. I would love to see a combo of UO-style crafting along with Shadowbane's merchants you could install in your city who would spawn random magic items in their inventory. Make the mobs drop decent, usable loot as well. I like seeing people with a mishmash of high level crafted goodies and some mob only drops. Make that shit random though- none of this you must kill foozle X in order to get drop Y that is essential for class Z' nonsense.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Draegan on January 28, 2015, 02:51:41 PM
Well the fact there is no levels just skill based advancement is a good sign this isn't just going to be one other game like the rest. The trick is what activities are devs asking a player to do on any given day to get those skill advanced.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Falconeer on January 28, 2015, 02:52:39 PM
You never know, this could be wildly popular. Maybe Shadowbane was just way ahead of its time and meaningful PvP plus a soupçon of SWG crafting equals the next League of Legends. Doubtful, but not a zero chance.

And Shadowbane wasn't ahead of its time, it was BROKEN and plagued by click to move which everyone hated at the time. By the time it had resolved its issues no one even cared anymore and even now people only remember SB-exe even though it got rid of it at some point and became pretty cool, except too late. Shadowbane had lots of great unique stuff. Buried under critical technical deficiencies and horrible visuals.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: tazelbain on January 28, 2015, 02:54:34 PM
I am going to kick the shit out of this football this time. I swear.

There hasn't been that many footballs for this Charlie Brown to kick though in the last ten years.

Cynicism is necessary, and yes this game will probably fail spectacularly because it's so much easier to fail than to succeed in this industry that even statistics is against it. But how many games of this kind have been attempted since 2003?
Doesn't really matter now, doesn't it, because these guys are designing like it is 1999.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: WayAbvPar on January 28, 2015, 02:57:44 PM
A lot of cool stuff they wanted to do in 1999 might be feasible now with hardware and software advances. Hollywood as been telling the same stories for 100+ years and are making more money than ever.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: tazelbain on January 28, 2015, 03:14:35 PM
Shadowbane didn't just have technical failures, it had human nature failures. Human nature hasn't changed.  People don't pay to be victimized. When it takes 5 hours to destroy 5 weeks of work, people find something to do with their time. If given a chance to ruin other people fun, they will do so with glee. No polygon counts, no cloud computing, no broadband modem changes that. How people really play (not how idealist designers imagine they should) has to be accounted for or you are just retreading doomed history.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: sam, an eggplant on January 28, 2015, 03:38:42 PM
Yeah, SB obviously had technical problems, but I really don't see why that's pertinent to this discussion about an entirely new game.

There are various ways to attack the sheep vs. wolves problem. I posted one earlier in this thread (http://forums.f13.net/index.php?topic=24612.msg1344142#msg1344142).


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Goreschach on January 28, 2015, 03:45:05 PM
Seriously? Are we seriously going to do this again?


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Malakili on January 28, 2015, 03:59:31 PM
If we didn't keep doing stuff like this I would have quit these forums a long time ago.  :awesome_for_real:


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: WayAbvPar on January 28, 2015, 04:00:20 PM
Seriously? Are we seriously going to do this again?

You are under no obligation to participate, or even to read.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: schild on January 28, 2015, 04:07:13 PM
A lot of cool stuff they wanted to do in 1999 might be feasible now with hardware and software advances. Hollywood as been telling the same stories for 100+ years and are making more money than ever.
This is a flawed argument without context. There are more Uwe Bolls (let's say an even 100) in MMORPGs than there are Kubricks (let's be generous and say 0).


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Falconeer on January 28, 2015, 04:24:41 PM
Shadowbane didn't just have technical failures, it had human nature failures. Human nature hasn't changed.  People don't pay to be victimized. When it takes 5 hours to destroy 5 weeks of work, people find something to do with their time. If given a chance to ruin other people fun, they will do so with glee. No polygon counts, no cloud computing, no broadband modem changes that. How people really play (not how idealist designers imagine they should) has to be accounted for or you are just retreading doomed history.

 :roll:

How can you and some other keep posting these things over and over again, in every single thread that barely mention open world PvP with lootable bodies, without getting bored of yourself and your own fingertips hitting the same keys? I guess you like it that way. The reality, as pointed out a million times, is that there haven't been many games of this kind to begin with, so all the "evidence" of failure is based on a handful (literally) of products that are either still alive, or crumbled under the weight of technical incompetence. The few that existed had a small but dedicated audience which means they could be viable as long as they are not going to be technically terrible and they won't have spent more than it makes sense to spend for a nice game. Some of the examples you make are also silly because EVE proved them wrong and because it doesn't take genius coding or design to modify things so that it doesn't take 5 hours to take down a building that took 5 weeks to build, something even the late Shadowbane changed.

How many times more are you and some other gonna post "WOLVES AND SHEEPS BLARH BLARH" only to get (and ignore) the usual reply mentioning a smaller but dedicated audience, not having to go for WoW numbers, previous examples being games from a technically impaired era, and Gamer Human Nature having been changed in recent times by survival games that unexpectedly sold millions of copies?

Why is it so hard to accept that there's a lot of people, clearly not you and that's fine, who do not quit a game when their city gets destroyed or their Alliance gets robbed? Does it threaten you as a gamer to understand that there are alternative niche markets for alternative niche tastes where the article you are bashing is actually in high demand, and all those people are asking is for it to not be made by talentless fucks?

I know it's useless, and #BUTWOLVES is a favourite hashtag around here that will keep recurring on f13 every three posts for the rest of eternity, but it wouldn't be so terrible if sometimes you could come up with something a little more original than just jumping into a thread about a game that doesn't interest you only to repeat for the millionth time "Since this game is not for me, it can only be terribad."

Now, if you want to take from this that I said "Oh Crowfall is gonna be awesome!", go ahead. But it's not what I think. I believe there's a huge amounf of ways it can tank even before it launches. But I also think that there's room for a kind of games that haven't been made for a long time because WoW hijacked the market and sealed it for a decade. I think it's time to try and see if, with lots of lessons learned from other games, improved and cheaper technologies, and a slightly different pool of players, a decently made game of this kind can make a small profit and a few players (not you) happy.


Quote from: sam, an eggplant
Yeah, SB obviously had technical problems, but I really don't see why that's pertinent to this discussion about an entirely new game.

Because I believe that the technical shortcomings of Shadowbane played a bigger part in its demise than the hardcore PvP design, while many seem to think it was because of the design HENCE Crowfall can only follow the same suit.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: sam, an eggplant on January 28, 2015, 04:28:15 PM
A lot of cool stuff they wanted to do in 1999 might be feasible now with hardware and software advances.
That's an interesting discussion on its own, when you think about it-- what could 15 years of technological advancement do for multiplayer games?

First thing to come to mind is that low-latency high-bandwidth connections from pervasive broadband allows for "twitch" gameplay and streaming content.

Virtualization on very inexpensive commodity hardware allows for tons of instancing/phasing. You don't need to rely on an expensive largely vertically scaled oracle RAC install for your backend, you can distribute it.

Assuming no SSDs, as they are still at a premium, commodity hardware tends to bottleneck on I/O. This leaves tons of free CPU cycles. They can be spent to model complex AI behavior, which enables all kinds of cool emergent (and probably broken, at first anyway) gameplay.

Smartphones and tablets offer tons of opportunities for second-screen UIs. Maps, chat, inventories, minigames, etc.

Any I missed?


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Typhon on January 28, 2015, 04:36:56 PM
I run through a quick checklist that games like this need to address for me to put up with the play2crush jagoffs;

  • Combat is fun - this seems hard
  • Combat is often - don't make me run around for hours at a time for 30 seconds of combat
  • Combat is for something - simplest example is a land grab
  • The rich don't just keep getting richer - Shadowbane was probably the most egregious of this, but DaoC had it's fair share as well.  EVE's answer of making the game world simply too large for any one organization to own it all seems to work, but an extremely large world seems like a poor place to have lots of combat.
  • Game imbalances are accounted for - biggest consistent failure here is population imbalance.  The population is not, and has never been, self-balancing.

Raph's one-off, "make it harder for the winner to keep winning", maybe addresses bullet four but we only heard that one-off, so it's impossible to tell what he was actually talking about.
The whole, "go to whatever world you want" thing, if I'm naively generous, maybe addresses population imbalance.

So actually they are off to a good start, compared to other games designed in 1999.   :grin:

If they hit bullets 1-3 you'll we'll all be playing... and then bitching about other stuff one month in.  If they don't the game will suck and it will have little to do with play2crush.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: tazelbain on January 28, 2015, 04:57:18 PM
How can you and some other keep posting these things over and over again, in every single thread that barely mention open world PvP with lootable bodies, without getting bored of yourself and your own fingertips hitting the same keys? I guess you like it that way.
Because I want to see advances in this area. Any game designs that allow the playerbase to cannibalize itself without any attempt at migrating isn't advancing anything.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Draegan on January 28, 2015, 05:12:18 PM
How can you and some other keep posting these things over and over again, in every single thread that barely mention open world PvP with lootable bodies, without getting bored of yourself and your own fingertips hitting the same keys? I guess you like it that way.
Because I want to see advances in this area. Any game designs that allow the playerbase to cannibalize itself without any attempt at migrating isn't advancing anything.


Well isn't that difference between good design and bad design? Your arguement has nothing to do with PVP games.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: tazelbain on January 28, 2015, 05:35:42 PM
How can you and some other keep posting these things over and over again, in every single thread that barely mention open world PvP with lootable bodies, without getting bored of yourself and your own fingertips hitting the same keys? I guess you like it that way.
Because I want to see advances in this area. Any game designs that allow the playerbase to cannibalize itself without any attempt at migrating isn't advancing anything.


Well isn't that difference between good design and bad design? Your arguement has nothing to do with PVP games.
More like, acknowledge a systemic problem and design a way to deal with it versus pretend its not a problem.



Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Lightstalker on January 28, 2015, 08:40:50 PM
SB started with nothing for a guild to do *but* annihilate the opposition.  Every incidental misunderstanding between any two chump players could escalate into a desperate struggle for survival where if you lost your guild was disbanded, your communication channel was broken, and your players were scattered to the ruins all over the map often with no route "home."  This naturally led to losers quitting or joining the "winners" and the system was fine with that because eventually infighting would break up the winners.  While the infighting was dead-on for human nature it wasn't particularly fun to experience and led to even more quitting as folks got frustrated with the backbiting and betrayal.  Attrition being a core challenge to the entire revenue model.

Eventually Mines were added to provide something short of total annihilation to fight over.  These of course helped reinforce the strong getting stronger dynamic because those mines provided resources needed to do the 'best' things.  Many guilds just treated them as casis belli for total annihilation and the doom-loop continued. 

So, even when in the past they recognized a problematic dynamic they have a track record of implementing a fix with undesirable consequences.  Raph's off the cuff remark doesn't fully capture the dynamic:  it shouldn't just be harder to keep winning, it should be harder to hold onto what you've already got by yourself without any enemy interaction the more you've won.  Overall the "infighting and human nature will fix it" strategy was just too un-fun and indirect for *a game* (not to mention hard on your revenue stream).  Though it did work as intended and showed a clear understanding of human nature in online games.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: sam, an eggplant on January 28, 2015, 08:56:22 PM
I don't play EVE, how do they address that problem? My understanding is that it's the wild west.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Triforcer on January 28, 2015, 09:38:55 PM
I don't play EVE, how do they address that problem? My understanding is that it's the wild west.

I believe spies join the megaguild, become officers, and then loot its bank and involuntarily disband it.  Maybe devs can do that periodically.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Hutch on January 28, 2015, 09:42:48 PM
I don't play EVE, how do they address that problem? My understanding is that it's the wild west.

I believe spies join the megaguild, become officers, and then loot its bank and involuntarily disband it.  Maybe devs can do that periodically.

Now I want to play Crowfall  :why_so_serious:


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: murdoc on January 29, 2015, 09:57:13 AM
I'll totally try this out. This has me more interested than Wildstar or ESO ever did.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Falconeer on January 29, 2015, 11:53:34 AM
News!

They revealed a new class, the Forgemaster.

(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/3584773/CROW%20Forgemaster%20Crowfall_D1Gameplay.jpg)


Then, some more info on Combat (http://crowfall.com/#/faq/54ca4668bffce6644cb33809) and Economy (http://crowfall.com/#/faq/54ca4682bffce6644cb3380a).

COMBAT:

- Combat will NOT be tab-target, it will be more action oriented than a standard MMORPG and will have active dodge (dashes).
- They are also moving away from the Holy Trinity and said that it's going to be "purposefully light on in-combat healing, to make it more deadly."
- Each archetype starts with pre-disposition towards a certain playstyle, but after that, the game system really opens up and allows you to adapt your character any way you like.
- The game will not have PvE raids. "Crowfall is a game is about territorial conquest and a player-driven economy – not PvE raids."
- There will not be "bosses" as we know them. "We have creatures that are incredibly deadly, but they don’t hang out at the end of a dungeon waiting for you to come kill them.  They also don’t drop rare magic items when defeated – because that would undercut the player-driven economy. Instead, they sometimes drop rare reagents, which a master crafter can use as additives to craft high-end equipment."


ECONOMY:

- There will be two different kinds of crafting resources. Those used for personal crafting (Resources and those used in conquest (Materials). This is actualy closer to the Archeage system than it sounds on paper.
- Resources can be harvested from the environment, and sometimes found on certain monsters.  Materials come from particular types of POIs (Points of Interest) called resource factories: Quarries, Lumber Mills, and Mines.
- Points of Interests, which tend to produce Materials and looks like will be conquerable, can yield different grade and qualities of the same Materials. One mine could produce high quality iron, while another produces low quality copper -- but at a much higher rate.
- Quarries located in a remote area will typically produce much more materials (and at a greater frequency.)  This was designed so that, as the risk of transporting those materials goes up, so does the potential reward. 

Here's a concept picture for the Resource Map. Doesn't look that revolutionary but it's cute.

(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/3584773/CROW%20Economy%20Crowfall_ResourceMapConcept.jpg)


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Hutch on January 29, 2015, 12:03:02 PM
Public Forum Link (http://community.crowfall.com/index.php?/topic/1392-01292015-forgemaster-world-rulesets-resources/)

In addition to Falc's excerpts, they are planning to have different PvP rulesets depending on which "world" you're in.

If they're really not going to have FFA PvP everywhere, this game might have room for sheep after all. Bravo!


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Falconeer on January 29, 2015, 12:03:25 PM
Two more pictures, giving a sneek peek about the way servers will be different from each other, with different maps and different rulesets, so different objectives. Interestng aspect is that players are supposed to be able to travel between servers/worlds.

Import and Export rules?!?

(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/3584773/CROW%20universe%20Crowfall_WorldRules_1.jpg)



(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/3584773/Crowfall_WorldRules_2.jpg)


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Nija on January 29, 2015, 12:20:58 PM
Why wouldn't you want things like dungeons and valleys containing elite mobs in your land conquest game?

What's the purpose of holding the land if there isn't anything to do with it other than fight over it? What's the purpose of the fighting? C'mon. Not this bullshit again.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Falconeer on January 29, 2015, 12:29:40 PM
Quote
Q: Do you have boss monsters?

A: Sort of.  Not exactly.
We have creatures that are incredibly deadly, but they don’t hang out at the end of a dungeon waiting for you to come kill them.  They also don’t drop rare magic items when defeated – because that would undercut the player-driven economy.
Instead, they sometimes drop rare reagents, which a master crafter can use as additives to craft high-end equipment.

This addresses that concern a bit.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: shiznitz on January 29, 2015, 03:18:08 PM
How to solve the problem that it is usually easier to gank someone for their resources than gather your own?


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Xanthippe on January 29, 2015, 04:02:03 PM
How to solve the problem that it is usually easier to gank someone for their resources than gather your own?

No inventory drop upon death solves that.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Malakili on January 29, 2015, 04:11:46 PM
How to solve the problem that it is usually easier to gank someone for their resources than gather your own?

No inventory drop upon death solves that.

What is this some kind of casual bullshit game already? 


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Viin on January 29, 2015, 04:11:57 PM
How to solve the problem that it is usually easier to gank someone for their resources than gather your own?

No inventory drop upon death solves that.

And .. don't be a little bitch?                                               :awesome_for_real:


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: WayAbvPar on January 29, 2015, 04:38:21 PM
Interesting server hierarchy. I wonder if there will be any bonuses for playing on the FFA server. And I still really, really, REALLY hate the art style. God it is fucking hideous.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Speedy Cerviche on January 29, 2015, 05:03:05 PM
Darkfall fixed a lot SB's "crush" issues by making city locations fixed, and not completely destroyable. People could easily re-bind in chaos cities or in allies territory and then re-build damaged buildings later unless the enemy won it.

Darkfall had a lot of other issues, such as a heavy, korean-like grind, no skill caps which made "battle-mage" with every skill maxed basically the best class. Lack of flavour, lore, and commerce systems, meant the only thing to do was arena style fights. Then the devs had financial issues so updates to fix this were/are very slow.

But they did manage to make one hell of an engine, really great physics, the kind of stuff you could do with levitate style spells and other movement ones was ridiculous, tribes style skiing, or slingshoting/boosting yourself up thousands of feet of sheer cliff.

The grind really wrecked it though, people were macroing all night to boost a single spell 10-20 points (of 100), etc. All to get your perfect battle-mage character to fully enjoy the fast paced, very twitchy combat.  Why not just play games like quake live, war thunder, or warband instead? Lots gave up and did just that.

If you could combine the best elements of both games, that cut out the grind, prevented the unrecoverable 'crush' defeat, had a solid stable engine, and the game was balanced properly, rich in lore and non-combat things to do, it could be really successful. There's a lot of gamers all throughout the more twitch gaming world who would sign on for something like that, like they did on Darkfall/Shadowbane launches before the flawed games chased them off.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: WayAbvPar on January 29, 2015, 05:30:23 PM
Agree with most of that. Lots to like in Darkfall, but it definitely needed some help. I loved the use-based skill gain and the multiple schools of magic, and the twitchy combat. Needed A LOT more players and some sort of economy for sure. Decent sized world with lots to explore, and a feeling of danger. But it was indeed hellishly grindy, especially for a new player vs vets.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Falconeer on January 29, 2015, 05:47:42 PM
How to solve the problem that it is usually easier to gank someone for their resources than gather your own?

That is not a problem at all. That is one of the main points of a game of this kind. It is obviously not for everyone, which is fine isn't it?


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Threash on January 29, 2015, 06:21:21 PM
Yeah, that is sorta the reason for people to kill each other.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Malakili on January 29, 2015, 06:28:37 PM
 :why_so_serious:


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Goreschach on January 29, 2015, 06:57:00 PM
Yeah, that is sorta the reason for people to kill each other.

Obviously, the lack of hat looting is why TF2 failed to catch on.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Teleku on January 29, 2015, 10:49:41 PM
Yeah, that is sorta the reason for people to kill each other.

Obviously, the lack of hat looting is why TF2 failed to catch on.
......

Did you actually just try to make that comparison?


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Malakili on January 29, 2015, 10:52:39 PM
I think it's more fair than it seems because the reality is that fun combat sells itself.  That is true regardless of the genre.  What you want is to START with great, fun, engaging combat.  You should never feel like you're putting up with a garbage combat system because the full loot gameplay gives it "meaning."  If you want to add full loot on to a great combat system, then fine have that discussion.  But the fact remains that people will PvP for its own sake if you make it actually GOOD.  That should be the first order of business.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Draegan on January 29, 2015, 10:58:49 PM
What does that have anything to do with anything? You just said "make sure you make your game fun at it's core". Bravo. That can be applied to any single conversation about a game. His argument was "we don't need full loot pvp because this shooter fps game over here doesn't have it." Which is stupid.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Gimfain on January 30, 2015, 04:09:12 AM
Reading their comments on healing killed my interest for this title.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Malakili on January 30, 2015, 07:40:14 AM
What does that have anything to do with anything? You just said "make sure you make your game fun at it's core". Bravo. That can be applied to any single conversation about a game. His argument was "we don't need full loot pvp because this shooter fps game over here doesn't have it." Which is stupid.

No, his argument wasn't that.  His argument was that people will PvP even when full loot isn't involved if the combat is good.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Falconeer on January 30, 2015, 07:42:26 AM
Do people stick around in PvE MMOs when the combat is good and the loot isn't?

EDIT to clarify. A good combat is always very important. But it has been proven before that it is not enough in MMOs, not to mention it's very hard to do in massively multiplayer games for obvious technical reasons. Comparing a 16v16 arena combat game like TF to an MMO makes no sense whatsoever. Even with good combat, the majority of people leave MMOs and start calling it "grindy" if they don't get rewarded for their performances. This is equally true in PvE and PvP. Unless you want to bring into the bogus comparison game stuff like Soul Calibur or Street Fighter. In that case, I give up and you win. This game should clearly ditch the resource looting and make combat a hybrid of Battlefield and Tekken. Moneyhats!  :why_so_serious:

And his argument is still stupid because sure people have been killing each other in PvP over the past 10 years of "meaningless" MMOs anyway, MMOs where killing a player doesn't give you anything, or they do it in arena games since Doom and before. But clearly, this one game here is being made for those who prefer to have (game)reasons to kill each other in order to create diplomatic and social layers which have been missing since Shadowbane and EVE. So yes, resource and corpse looting will be the engine of this one M M O because that's a requested feature.  What does Team Fotress have to do with this? It's just nitpicking what Threash wrote and trying to pull it out of context for no good reason.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Paelos on January 30, 2015, 08:04:28 AM
Do people stick around in PvE MMOs when the combat is good and the loot isn't?

Has there ever been a PvE MMO with good combat?


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Malakili on January 30, 2015, 08:10:15 AM
Even with good combat, the majority of people leave MMOs and start calling it "grindy" if they don't get rewarded for their performances.


That's because fighting AI over and over again is boring compared to fighting real people.  But I'll just make it simple and relate it back to this game.  Whether or not I play this game has exactly nothing to do with whether or not they choose to make it full loot.   The combat isn't the only consideration either, but it's way more important than whether I can take a guy's stuff.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Paelos on January 30, 2015, 08:29:20 AM
I only care about combat and crafting.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Trippy on January 30, 2015, 09:07:58 AM
Do people stick around in PvE MMOs when the combat is good and the loot isn't?
Has there ever been a PvE MMO with good combat?
Yes.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Paelos on January 30, 2015, 09:14:33 AM
Which one(s)?


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Falconeer on January 30, 2015, 09:59:31 AM
TERA.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Nija on January 30, 2015, 10:06:39 AM
TERA was PVE? I certainly never played it that way.

And I quit because there wasn't an endgame, and there still isn't an endgame. It doesn't matter how fun the combat is if there's nothing to do.

See TERA, GW2, etc.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Trippy on January 30, 2015, 10:45:38 AM
TERA.
Yup.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Falconeer on January 30, 2015, 10:50:08 AM
TERA was PVE? I certainly never played it that way.

And I quit because there wasn't an endgame, and there still isn't an endgame. It doesn't matter how fun the combat is if there's nothing to do.

See TERA, GW2, etc.


TERA, sadly, had more PvE content than PvP, despite what they advertised. It took them more than two years to release some meaningful PvP expansion. In the meantime, it was PvE with random ganking, like pretty much every other MMO out there if you roll on a PvP server. And the prsence of optional and meaningless guild vs guild wars isn't enough to describe it as a PvP game.

And yes, your last line better clarifies the point I tried to make a few posts above: good combat doesn't save MMOs but it totally makes Arena games like Team Fortress where it doesn't matter if there's an endgame or not. They are for different crowds and imply different goals.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Paelos on January 30, 2015, 10:50:42 AM
See I knew people would say that one. Which is a damn shame because while I've never played it, that game proved that you can have decent combat, but if you wrap it in completely unappealing package people will not play it.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Falconeer on January 30, 2015, 10:56:54 AM
Blade & Soul might have good combat. I am trying it right now and I'll report about it. But I have to say: it probably falls in the same identical package TERA did. In fact, NC sued Bluehole because as far as I know an ex NC soft employee made TERA out of stuff that was supposed to go into NC's next project, originally Lineage 3, then morphed into Blade & Soul. It shouldn't be surprising they are similar.

But since we are on topic, it's important to underline that the best combat in MMOs have been made in South Korea for the last 5 years. See also the upcoming Black Desert. One big difference with Western releases though could be tracked back to the fact that Korean MMOs seem to be mostly client-sided, which leaves lots of holes to hacking but allows to do beautiful responsive combat, while Western releases try to prevent hacking by doing running most of the stuff on the server, which of course slows things down.

I am not a technician though so I might be talking out of my ass. So far, I'd say the most impressive Western released combat in a MMORPG is Guild Wars 2 without a doubt. Neverwinter was too instanced to matter, and I don't think it was better than GW2 combat anyway.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Malakili on January 30, 2015, 11:06:29 AM
Yeah, bringing up Neverwinter is interesting.  I think the Cryptic MMOs (Champions Online, Star Trek Online, and Neverwinter) all have underrated combat systems.  It isn't the best ever, but it definitely is above average.  It kept me playing Champions a lot longer than I otherwise would have, that is for sure.  Particularly because I could turn off targeting and map my main abilities to the mouse to make it feel a bit like a third person shooter.

I found Guild Wars 2 combat to be pretty boring, but maybe I am an outlier in that regard.  But at base, hotkey style abilities/combat just isn't my favorite and even well done combat like that isn't going to ever feel great to me.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: sam, an eggplant on January 30, 2015, 11:13:58 AM
Neverwinter combat really is great fun. I loved my ranger, that ability where the longer you channel the cone of attack narrows, allowing you to hit a bunch of enemies or focus all your damage on one... good stuff, man.

Anyone that hasn't tried Neverwinter really should give it a shot. It's not a long term MMO-- I played for a couple weeks then quit. But I had actual fun in those weeks. And of course it's completely free and you really, really don't have to pay anything.

I should try Star Trek sometime soon. I hear good things.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Nija on January 30, 2015, 11:16:33 AM
See also the upcoming Black Desert.

You should forget about Black Desert right now. I just looks good in videos.

http://black-desert.com/articles/the-naked-truth-about-black-desert-onlines-current-state-of-affairs-open-beta/


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Triforcer on January 30, 2015, 11:36:03 AM
Random thoughts on last reveal:

- Mixed feelings about no tab target combat.  I really, really don't want to have to bunny hop and jump-spin in a circle constantly to do pvp.

- The seem to be going with a 1.0-0.0 EVE model for their tiers of worlds (although it isn't 100% clear to me that the "Eternal Kingdoms" will be completely safe, PvE strongholds).  If that is really what they are doing, I hope all the best crafting resources are in the FFA tier and the other low tiers- otherwise we really do have overpopulated Trammel and deserted Felucca all over again.

Also, the rate of armor decay (for the two example world tiers) seems high (20% and 30% decay on death).   I'm betting that you can repair to an extent, but not permanently.  This fits with the decision to not have "magic armor" loot drops- you don't have to be terrified of losing your armor, because you can always go buy basically the same type again.  

- Will each race be limited to one archetype?  If Dwarves can only be Forgemasters, Centaurs only Legionnaires, etc. that seems fairly limiting.  I know each archetype goes into "Promotion Classes"- maybe Promotion classes are shared between races even if base archetypes are not?

- Love the "light on in-combat healing" decision, but I hope "light" doesn't mean "none."  


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: sam, an eggplant on January 30, 2015, 11:44:11 AM
- Love the "light on in-combat healing" decision, but I hope "light" doesn't mean "none."  
I would have agreed before playing dragon age 3, but that game proved that limited healing (in favor of proactive damage shields) could force some compelling tactical gameplay choices. Reactive healing is boring; every MMO is saddled with that whack-a-mole crap.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Paelos on January 30, 2015, 12:40:07 PM
I also thought the Dragon Age model would suck, but it doesn't. Instead it makes you actually think about fights and use positioning that makes a difference.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: tazelbain on January 30, 2015, 12:53:18 PM
Ya, combat should be fun, but by how's standards? Twitching McRedbull and Mr. EmpireBuilder probably have different views of what is fun.

So play2crush isn't actually a thing with Crowfall. 100% consensual PvP isn't the answer anymore than 0% is. But at this game won't be DoA.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Draegan on January 30, 2015, 01:10:53 PM
What does that have anything to do with anything? You just said "make sure you make your game fun at it's core". Bravo. That can be applied to any single conversation about a game. His argument was "we don't need full loot pvp because this shooter fps game over here doesn't have it." Which is stupid.

No, his argument wasn't that.  His argument was that people will PvP even when full loot isn't involved if the combat is good.

So what? I don't see the point. People play games for different reasons and incentives. People play multiple games for different reasons. Some people play both Hearthstone and MTG. Some people play HOTS and LOL. What the fuck does that argument even mean.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: schild on January 30, 2015, 01:19:01 PM
What does that have anything to do with anything? You just said "make sure you make your game fun at it's core". Bravo. That can be applied to any single conversation about a game. His argument was "we don't need full loot pvp because this shooter fps game over here doesn't have it." Which is stupid.
No, his argument wasn't that.  His argument was that people will PvP even when full loot isn't involved if the combat is good.
So what? I don't see the point. People play games for different reasons and incentives. People play multiple games for different reasons. Some people play both Hearthstone and MTG. Some people play HOTS and LOL. What the fuck does that argument even mean.
Quit it with the pointless fat aggression and hostility, particularly when you're being willfully retarded.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Typhon on January 30, 2015, 01:40:12 PM
Ya, combat should be fun, but by how's standards? Twitching McRedbull and Mr. EmpireBuilder probably have different views of what is fun.

So play2crush isn't actually a thing with Crowfall. 100% consensual PvP isn't the answer anymore than 0% is. But at this game won't be DoA.

Combat should be fun by the standards of the game audience you are targeting (or the game you want to play, if you are making the game for yourself).  No sane developer makes a game for both Mr McRedbull and Mr EmpireBuilder unless the game has two intertwined modes of combat which would be orders of magnitude harder than just one mode of combat which already is apparently hard because we have many games but only one or two examples of "good" combat.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Draegan on January 30, 2015, 02:06:56 PM
Quit it with the pointless fat aggression and hostility, particularly when you're being willfully retarded.

Isn't this awkward.

What's fat aggression anyway? Are you calling me fat, or are you saying I have a lot of aggression. More so than the normal amount that you find on these message boards?


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Pennilenko on January 30, 2015, 02:29:58 PM
 :popcorn:


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Merusk on January 30, 2015, 02:32:19 PM
No sane developer makes a game for both Mr McRedbull and Mr EmpireBuilder ...

Sane or rational, really. Dreamers and True Believers think they can do it all the time.

Which always brings me the joy of watching you guys salivate over yet another doomed-to-fail 'open world' MMO.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: tazelbain on January 30, 2015, 02:38:04 PM
What's fat aggression anyway? Are you calling me fat, or are you saying I have a lot of aggression. More so than the normal amount that you find on these message boards?
Maybe you are being Cartman-esque?


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Draegan on January 30, 2015, 02:38:13 PM
Does GW2 count as an open world MMO?


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Draegan on January 30, 2015, 02:38:34 PM
What's fat aggression anyway? Are you calling me fat, or are you saying I have a lot of aggression. More so than the normal amount that you find on these message boards?
Maybe you are being Cartman-esque?

I'll accept that.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Kageru on January 30, 2015, 06:56:24 PM

This should be entertaining to watch. Open world PvP always puts interesting stresses on game balance, mechanics and community.

It may well work if they scale their development costs realistically and evolve the game once it goes live (to keep development costs down) while still having a balanced and fun core they can build on. It would be a pretty impressive achievement if they can pull it off since there's lots of ways it can end badly.

I'm still fairly convinced Eve worked partly because it was launched in a period where expectations were lower and the novelty of online play overcame the tedium of actual game-play. If it launched today it I doubt it would build the core community that sustained it. Also space is cheap to model.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Typhon on January 30, 2015, 11:46:32 PM
No sane developer makes a game for both Mr McRedbull and Mr EmpireBuilder ...

Sane or rational, really. Dreamers and True Believers think they can do it all the time.

Which always brings me the joy of watching you guys salivate over yet another doomed-to-fail 'open world' MMO.

No salivating here, there are no concrete details on the combat.  I'm just forum-warrior-ing it at this point.  Open world full loot leaves me cold... unless there is good combat!


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Paelos on January 31, 2015, 03:46:45 PM
Good combat and good crafting would make me put up with almost anything.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Ginaz on January 31, 2015, 06:20:13 PM
Good lord...14 pages for this shit??? :facepalm:  This is going to crash and burn just like every other attempt to resurrect the glory days of UO and Shadowbane.  End of story.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Paelos on January 31, 2015, 06:28:41 PM
Good lord...14 pages for this shit??? :facepalm:  This is going to crash and burn just like every other attempt to resurrect the glory days of UO and Shadowbane.  End of story.

Perhaps I can introduce you to the 102 page TESO thread, a game we declared on page 2 would be shit. http://forums.f13.net/index.php?topic=14548.0


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Hutch on January 31, 2015, 07:53:24 PM
Good lord...14 pages for this shit??? :facepalm:  This is going to crash and burn just like every other attempt to resurrect the glory days of UO and Shadowbane.  End of story.

No. Fourteen pages of talking about Crowfall is impossible.

There is no Crowfall.

We haven't even gotten started yet.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: tmp on January 31, 2015, 10:38:04 PM
Blade & Soul might have good combat. I am trying it right now and I'll report about it. But I have to say: it probably falls in the same identical package TERA did. In fact, NC sued Bluehole because as far as I know an ex NC soft employee made TERA out of stuff that was supposed to go into NC's next project, originally Lineage 3, then morphed into Blade & Soul. It shouldn't be surprising they are similar.

But since we are on topic, it's important to underline that the best combat in MMOs have been made in South Korea for the last 5 years. See also the upcoming Black Desert. One big difference with Western releases though could be tracked back to the fact that Korean MMOs seem to be mostly client-sided, which leaves lots of holes to hacking but allows to do beautiful responsive combat, while Western releases try to prevent hacking by doing running most of the stuff on the server, which of course slows things down.
If I understand it right, the whole lawyer-fu was more about using the designs and concepts for the game than the combat per se, which is somewhat different and one of contributing reasons why there's two separate games at all -- Lineage devs who left NCSoft and possibly took the code with them wanted the combat be like what the TERA got, while NC had somewhat different Vision(tm) that ended up in BnS. So in this one regard they aren't too much alike.

Re: Korean games in general, it's not like they *need* to do it client-side when the entire country is half the side of Florida and stuffed with high-speed broadbands that mean getting more than 10ms ping is unusual drop in quality of service. So my impression is the client-sided stuff is mostly down to limited skillset and/or not giving a damn beyond getting shit up and running in some most basic way. You can see it with the NA port of TERA breaking in sometimes hilarious manners when things that were taken for granted (the server sitting in the same time zone with all the players, minimal latency etc) are no longer present.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: schild on January 31, 2015, 11:28:47 PM
Good lord...14 pages for this shit??? :facepalm:  This is going to crash and burn just like every other attempt to resurrect the glory days of UO and Shadowbane.  End of story.
Perhaps I can introduce you to the 102 page TESO thread, a game we declared on page 2 would be shit. http://forums.f13.net/index.php?topic=14548.0
And it's not?


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: ezrast on February 01, 2015, 12:05:01 AM
This would be a very quiet subforum if we didn't talk about games that are shit.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Paelos on February 01, 2015, 08:36:56 AM
Good lord...14 pages for this shit??? :facepalm:  This is going to crash and burn just like every other attempt to resurrect the glory days of UO and Shadowbane.  End of story.
Perhaps I can introduce you to the 102 page TESO thread, a game we declared on page 2 would be shit. http://forums.f13.net/index.php?topic=14548.0
And it's not?

No, it is. My point is we talk about shit a lot.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Falconeer on February 02, 2015, 01:15:56 PM
More new concept/design stuff from the Devs.

http://community.crowfall.com/index.php?/topic/1597-020215-hunger-week-its-about-time/

This week they explain why should you want to play Crowfall, and what makes it different from other MMORPGs, specifically other PvP MMORPGs.

Quote
Today is the turning point – where we start to separate away from the herd.  Unfortunately (but inevitably) that means we’re going to turn some people off today.  But hopefully those of you who stick around will be here for the long haul.

About a decade ago, I was the creative director on a game called “Shadowbane.”  Shadowbane had a lot of flaws, but the vision is still something that I am very proud of.  The Wolfpack founders (of which I am one) came up with something innovative – really innovative.  It’s surprising how rare that is, even in the game space.
Unfortunately, the vision was also flawed.  SB had tons of technical and operational issues, yes, but that’s not what I am talking about.  I’m talking about the crack in the foundation of the design:
 
At its heart, SB was a strategy game.  And strategy games can’t last forever.

In Shadowbane, I called this phenomenon server stagnation.  The game is incredibly fun – right up until someone wins.  Then, without a server reset, the game stagnates and everyone quits.
 
One of the key elements of strategy games is they have a win condition followed by a board reset.  You start the game, you play the game, someone wins.  You reset the board and start a new game.
One of the key elements of MMOs is that they are persistent.  Actually, that’s not the right word, is it?  They’re permanent.  Players expect to play them over years, and the game world is (generally) static.
 
These two design goals seem diametrically opposed: the game must reset and the game must last forever.
Can they be married together?  I think they can.

What if characters are persistent/permanent – but the Worlds are not?
What if your character exists outside of any given Campaign, and can join new matches once a match is over?

This opens up a whole new world of design possibilities.

- Characters are permanent, and advance over the course of many Campaigns.  This gives you the feeling of persistence that we’ve come to expect from MMOs.
- Campaigns, though, aren’t permanent.  They still be “persistent” between game sessions – but they don’t last forever.
- How long should the last?  As long as the game is still fun!  And they don’t all have to be the same duration.  Some Campaigns could last 1 week, or 1 month.  or 6 months.  or 1 year.
- These Campaigns aren’t just “instances”, though -- they are fully populated, continent-sized, seamless zone MMO servers.  The only thing they have in common with an “instance” is that they are time-limited.
- Because each Campaign is marching towards an end condition, this means that the World doesn’t have to be static anymore. We can break the Campaign into different “phases”, and adjust the rules of the game change during each phase.  We can allow the players to fundamentally change the world, without fear of the long term problems this might create.
- Why not make each Campaign unique?  Why can’t each one have a completely unique world map (mountains, forests, lakes, castles, villages, quarries, mines, mills – you name it)?  The “exploration” phase of the game can be different in each Campaign.  The world will never be stale.
- To that point: since each game is a stand-alone event, we can even change the rules (and win conditions) of each Campaign.  We can experiment with different rules, to see which ones are more popular – and keep the game continually fresh.

So, how do you explain this?
 
The Hunger.  The Hunger is a mysterious, destructive force that spreads from one world to the next, like an infection – twisting and corrupting everything it touches.  Eventually, the Hunger consumes the World itself, and it is destroyed.
 Players take the roles of Divine Champions, immortal participants in the War of the Gods.  They join the Campaigns to scavenge the Dying Worlds for relics, resources and glory.
 
A Campaign might look like this:
 
* Phase 1 is Spring.  The Campaign map is hidden by fog of war.  You are dropped (typically naked) into an unknown, deadly environment.  This world is filled with the ruins of ancient castles, abandoned mines and haunted villages – which you have to explore to scavenge for weapons, tools and the resources to start building fortifications.
 
* Phase 2 is Summer.  The Hunger starts to infect the creatures.  Resources become scarce.  Your team claims an abandoned quarry and must fight to keep it.  You use the stone to build an ancient keep, to use it as staging areas to attack their neighbors.
 
* Phase 3 is Fall.  The creatures become more deadly as the Hunger takes hold.  Resources are heavily contested and transporting them is fraught with peril.  Your guild frantically builds a wall around your city, as the nature of conflict shifts from smaller skirmishes to siege warfare.
 
* Phase 4 is Winter.  The environment is brutal.  Warmth is hard to come by.  Your kingdoms grows in strength; your neighbors falter and you demand that they swear fealty or face complete loss of the Campaign.  Instead, a handful of smaller kingdoms choose to band together against you.
 
* Phase 5 is Victory and Defeat.  The World is destroyed in a cataclysmic event as the Campaign comes to an end.  Your Kingdom emerges victorious, and you return to the Eternal Kingdoms to enjoy the spoils of war.   Your adversaries head home, too -- to lick their wounds.



(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/3584773/CROW%20Crowfall_HungerEffectConcept.jpg)



No one quits.  Instead, both groups strategize on how to dominate the next Campaign.
 
This is the experience we are trying to create.  Even if I lose, it won’t feel hollow.
We saw a similar pattern emerge during the SB beta… by accident, not design.  Occasionally, changes to the game design would require us to wipe the world.  Every time it happened, I was worried that players would quit the game. Instead, we saw incredibly high peak concurrency numbers after each wipe.  Every time.  The “land rush” to grab the key positions in the new world was incredibly alluring.  If the world map was unique, I expect it would have been even more popular.
 
The downside of this approach is that we don’t want the universe to feel too transitory.  That’s why we added the Eternal Kingdoms: super-sized player and guild housing Worlds.  Trophy rooms that you can use as a “lobby” between matches/campaigns.
 (To make sure these Worlds don’t compete with the “main” game, i.e. the Campaign Worlds, we’ve completely stripped them of resource factories and anything but common reagents.  If you want to fill your trophy room, you have to go out and earn it.)
 
This is the foundational change that we’ve made.  Crowfall isn’t an MMO with a “battle ground” strapped to the end of the level treadmill.  Crowfall isn’t a three-way tug of war that never resets.  It’s a real blend of a strategy game and an MMO.
 
There’s more (a LOT more) to come, but it all starts with this basic idea:
 
Eternal Heroes, Dying Worlds.
 
Todd
ACE



This addresses, ON PAPER, many concerns that whoever played these kind of games passionately and long enough had over the years.

- Different servers with different maps and completely different rulesets, ranging from factional three way war, to pure Guild vs Guild, to some other modes that aren't clear yet.
- Every server is a Campaign, that ends after some time cause the whole world gets corrupted. Time of a campaign can vary from weeks to months.
- Approach of the server/campaign to its end is reflected in game with changes to the environment, resources getting scarcer, and mobs getting corrupted and more dangerous.
- Characters DO NOT get reset though, they earn trophies for the Campaign/server they participated on and get to choose a new one. They retain all of their skills and some of the gear, and can get houses and decorate them with trophies in the "Neutral eternal worlds".
- "Neutral eternal worlds" have no resources though, so they are not the Trammel you are looking for.
- Players can change servers, but there are restrictions on the gear they can carry with themselves to the new world-server-campaign.


Naturally, the more they want to innovate, the harder it will be not to mess it up especially because while it is true that players are spasmodically looking for something new that they can't even exactly imagine because it doesn't exist yet, it's not like you can engineer that in a lab. As EVE and DayZ proved, it's a combination of lots of things, including timing and sheer luck. And this is without even getting started on questions like "how much money do they have?" and "how talented are the coders?"


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Malakili on February 02, 2015, 01:18:20 PM
That's actually amazing news about the win conditions and starting over.  World War II Online has been doing it for years and years now.  I'm surprised no one else has tried it.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Hutch on February 02, 2015, 01:30:50 PM
A Tale in the Desert used to reset the entire game every year or two.
I say "used to" because I don't know if that game is still running.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Rendakor on February 02, 2015, 01:42:46 PM
Damn them for getting my hopes up, even a little.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Viin on February 02, 2015, 01:48:07 PM
I wish the reset was based on a win condition rather than time. Still, sounds interesting.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Falconeer on February 02, 2015, 01:50:34 PM
I think resetting the servers is not the major deal here. The difficult task on their hands, and where true innovation could happen, will be finding a way to make it so the campaigns matter, and keep being contested long enough to keep it interesting and eventually make it feel like you had a great run whether you won or lost. This is the big challenge, and probably the one not many felt like undertaking so far because it's so damn hard. Also, making sure that conflict happens and things don't go to sleep as soon as one kingdom has the upper hand, or worse everyone on the server joining the winning faction to get the rewards and then wait until the server dies to reap the rewards and start on a new one. Nothing was worse, both in GW2 and TESO, than being in a losing faction with days until the next reset and knowing there was nothing that could be done to recover. As a result, fighting always really occurred in the first few days of a campaign. Everything else was frustration both on the winning and the losing side.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Threash on February 02, 2015, 01:50:46 PM
I wish the reset was based on a win condition rather than time. Still, sounds interesting.

Don't leave important shit up to the players is probably a good lesson to have learned.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Falconeer on February 02, 2015, 01:53:05 PM
But he's not wrong. If you make it time based (or create a time frame that is known to players) the players will game the clock as much as possible and very easily make it into a snoozefest as soon as someone gets the upper hand. I know we don't have enough elements to say this, but a time limit sounds great on paper while so far it has been proven really tricky by TESO and GW2.

At the same time though the same can happen if one faction gets closer enough than anyone else to the winning conditions. Everyone else just stops fighting.

Basically, how to design a PvP game where fickle average-lame-players keep fighting until the end of the campaign?


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Hutch on February 02, 2015, 01:55:10 PM
I wish the reset was based on a win condition rather than time. Still, sounds interesting.

I think resetting the servers is not the major deal here. The difficult task on their hands, and where true innovation could happen, will be finding a way to make it so the campaigns matter, and keep being contested long enough to keep it interesting and eventually make it feel like you had a great run whether you won or lost. This is the big challenge, and probably the one not many felt like undertaking so far because it's so damn hard. Also, making sure that conflict happens and things don't go to sleep as soon as one kingdom has the upper hand, or worse everyone on the server joining the winning faction to get the rewards and then wait until the server dies to reap the rewards and start on a new one. Nothing was worse, both in GW2 and TESO, than being in a losing faction with days until the next reset and knowing there was nothing that could be done to recover. As a result, fighting always really occurred in the first few days of a campaign. Everything else was frustration both on the winning and the losing side.

I think they are looking at having win conditions. They mentioned it a couple of times in the update.
They also mentioned the cataclysmic event, but I bet that just goes off once the win condition is met.
A win condition could very much look like "everyone joined (or knelt to) the winning side." Once that happens, poof. Or boom.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: tazelbain on February 02, 2015, 02:23:37 PM
Sounds interesting. I know many (like myself) have advocated something like this since Shadowbane. Glad to see someone is going to give it a try.



Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Paelos on February 02, 2015, 02:31:56 PM
He used "The Vision" in the second paragraph.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Malakili on February 02, 2015, 03:05:19 PM

Basically, how to design a PvP game where fickle average-lame-players keep fighting until the end of the campaign?

Probably not possible.  If we take World War 2 Online as an example again only after the campaigns looked REALLY lost did the population start to dip a lot in my opinion.  If you were making progress anywhere along the front people would tend to keep playing.  Then again, the way armies worked in that game meant that if you made some good strategic choices even in a losing situation you could do something like cut off a few armies and rout them from the map, giving you a day or so where you could make real progress on the map. 

So I guess I'm saying, make comebacks possible.  People will still play if they think they are losing.  But they will not still play if they think they have lost.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Threash on February 02, 2015, 03:10:02 PM
Sure, just make sure they are getting "something" as long as they are playing rather than making it a winner take all at the end kinda thing.  Make losing 100-80 better than losing 100-20.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Ingmar on February 02, 2015, 03:14:39 PM
Basically, how to design a PvP game where fickle average-lame-players keep fighting until the end of the campaign?

Unpredictable end times for campaigns maybe? I can see issues with those, but at least it wouldn't let people say 'oh well, with only a day left we don't have time to make up this difference'?


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: tazelbain on February 02, 2015, 03:20:45 PM
I can definitely see an opportunity to make campaigns have various levels of PvP difficulty. Give the player a chance to get bearings in a co-op campaign and then move to progressively more dangerous campaigns. Could be a much better way of handling PvP progression than EvE.

I hope that not only do they vary the maps but also the tech trees. So optimal strategies change with the campaign.

Any word on the business model?







Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Falconeer on February 02, 2015, 03:23:59 PM
The only thing we know is that it's not going to be free to play. We don't know if it's going to be box only, or box+subscription. I would bet on box + smaller than usual subscription. Or box + optional subscription. I would be surprised if there were no sub at all.

And yes, again, the only thing that really worries me and that they have to come up with something really good is how to push people to keep fighting when they are losing and the end is near.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Hutch on February 02, 2015, 04:22:05 PM
The only thing we know is that it's not going to be free to play. We don't know if it's going to be box only, or box+subscription. I would bet on box + smaller than usual subscription. Or box + optional subscription. I would be surprised if there were no sub at all.

And yes, again, the only thing that really worries me and that they have to come up with something really good is how to push people to keep fighting when they are losing and the end is near.

When did they say it wasn't going to be free to play? I mean, it makes sense, but I don't remember reading anything official on that topic.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Falconeer on February 02, 2015, 04:35:42 PM
Rumor has it.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Draegan on February 02, 2015, 05:08:45 PM
I think resetting the servers is not the major deal here. The difficult task on their hands, and where true innovation could happen, will be finding a way to make it so the campaigns matter, and keep being contested long enough to keep it interesting and eventually make it feel like you had a great run whether you won or lost. This is the big challenge, and probably the one not many felt like undertaking so far because it's so damn hard. Also, making sure that conflict happens and things don't go to sleep as soon as one kingdom has the upper hand, or worse everyone on the server joining the winning faction to get the rewards and then wait until the server dies to reap the rewards and start on a new one. Nothing was worse, both in GW2 and TESO, than being in a losing faction with days until the next reset and knowing there was nothing that could be done to recover. As a result, fighting always really occurred in the first few days of a campaign. Everything else was frustration both on the winning and the losing side.

The way to do this is fairly simple, it's the ability to carry over resources/gear/skill progression over to the next campaign. Even if you're on the losing end of the campaign, you can still play the game to "prep" for the next campaign. Just like a lot of people "prep" for an upcoming WOW expansion.



Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Viin on February 02, 2015, 05:19:07 PM
That could work, though it'd probably have to be something less individualized such as your gear. Winning bonuses and other exclusives would be cool, such as the ability to make certain defenses or offensive weapons for your guild. Those could carry to the next campaign without always worrying about how "old" gear balances against the new content.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Lightstalker on February 02, 2015, 05:33:13 PM
That could work, though it'd probably have to be something less individualized such as your gear. Winning bonuses and other exclusives would be cool, such as the ability to make certain defenses or offensive weapons for your guild. Those could carry to the next campaign without always worrying about how "old" gear balances against the new content.

'cept you can't carry anything forward that helps the strong get stronger or else you end up exactly where Shadowbane was - murder on late adopters.

The winner rewards will have to be like a divisional champions banner to hang in your home stadium, cosmetic.  Now, if there was some way to enforce a draft for each new world...


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: schild on February 02, 2015, 05:33:46 PM
It's nice to see that even in 2015, we can't help but theorycraft a game that has a higher than 50% chance of never seeing the light of day in any form they're currently jawing off about it.

And by nice I mean 'omg stahp, pls stahp dolan"


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Falconeer on February 02, 2015, 05:48:53 PM
We know that every campaign has different rules for what you can bring with you when you enter the new world/campaign.



Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Falconeer on February 02, 2015, 05:50:26 PM
C'mon Schild. In the era with no good games (according to you), f13 is still our favourite MMO.  :drillf:


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: HaemishM on February 02, 2015, 06:07:35 PM
Yeah, it's not like there's much to talk about with ANY MMOG's these days. They are all one flavor or other of grindy shit. Theorycrafting about vaporware is the only fun left in MMOG's.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Lantyssa on February 02, 2015, 06:43:26 PM
It's that or start talking about SWG again...


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: schild on February 02, 2015, 08:07:29 PM
How about I just rename the parent forum here NORTH KOREA and let it starve


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Malakili on February 02, 2015, 08:23:56 PM
'omg stahp, pls stahp dolan"

This pretty much describes the entire MMORPG genre at this point. 


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Bzalthek on February 02, 2015, 08:41:53 PM
MMOforum with repeating campaigns.  LFR for heroic Bloodworth: groundhog boogaloo.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Paelos on February 03, 2015, 07:57:52 AM
It's nice to see that even in 2015, we can't help but theorycraft a game that has a higher than 50% chance of never seeing the light of day in any form they're currently jawing off about it.

And by nice I mean 'omg stahp, pls stahp dolan"

They haven't even started selling ships yet.

ONWARD!


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Malakili on February 03, 2015, 08:01:31 AM
Yeah, it's kind of funny that a game promising to finally deliver on open world PvP, a deep crafting system and has only shown us a handful of screenshots seems quaint and reasonable by the standard Star Citizen has set.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: kaid on February 03, 2015, 09:53:19 AM
That could work, though it'd probably have to be something less individualized such as your gear. Winning bonuses and other exclusives would be cool, such as the ability to make certain defenses or offensive weapons for your guild. Those could carry to the next campaign without always worrying about how "old" gear balances against the new content.

'cept you can't carry anything forward that helps the strong get stronger or else you end up exactly where Shadowbane was - murder on late adopters.

The winner rewards will have to be like a divisional champions banner to hang in your home stadium, cosmetic.  Now, if there was some way to enforce a draft for each new world...

Seeing some of the screen shots of the server options I don't think that will be that huge of an issue. One of the server options is % of inventory loss on death and also major durability hits on death. It looks like you may have some advantage after winning but deaths would eat into that rather rapidly. Now how thats actually implemented in the live game is the question but it does appear they are aware of it and are going the eve route of having your toys destructible.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Raph on February 03, 2015, 10:05:46 PM
FWIW, all of the design sessions between myself and Todd (and Blair) have been filmed, so... for all I know you might get that reality show. :P


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: schild on February 03, 2015, 11:31:48 PM
I can't see a single reason to do that unless you're planning to Kickstart the whole affair.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: sam, an eggplant on February 04, 2015, 01:51:47 AM
My initial response was, if you're talking over google hangouts or whatever anyway, why not record for later reference?

But upon further reflection, it's better to just take notes like a normal person. It's not like you can speed through a video of talking heads, you'd need to sit there watching the screen for hours to refer back.

So yeah, only likely reason is a making-of mini-documentary kickstarter reward.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Falconeer on February 04, 2015, 02:35:39 AM
I totally want that documentary. That said, if people can hold developers accountable for "promises" they made before releasing of a game when they typed something, I can't even imagine what would they do if they had a video recording of a dev saying something is gonna be in the game (and ended up not). They'd overanalyze every syllable and every voice intonation and facial microexpression to come up with some conspiration theory that proves that devs are a liars and did it to swindle the loyal and kind customers.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: tmp on February 04, 2015, 04:29:34 AM
I can't see a single reason to do that unless you're planning to Kickstart the whole affair.
Evidence, so couple years down the road there's a clear answer to every "now, whose dumb idea *this* was" :why_so_serious:


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: schild on February 04, 2015, 04:35:21 AM
I can't see a single reason to do that unless you're planning to Kickstart the whole affair.
Evidence, so couple years down the road there's a clear answer to every "now, whose dumb idea *this* was" :why_so_serious:
Man. This idea has Raph or Todd written all fucking over it.

I can not stress how unbelievably daft this entire project is. Liking these people makes it harder for me to go "stop." Harder is relative though. It's still not too difficult to say that.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: schild on February 04, 2015, 04:47:18 AM
In other news, can someone dig up who the fuck is funding this thing? If it's being funded by I don't know, Massive Gamer magazine's #1 Most Influential Game Developer in the World, that's one thing. If there's like, actual American Dollars behind it, I want to know who it is.

I want to know who still falls for the video game long con.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Teleku on February 04, 2015, 04:47:55 AM
I can't see a single reason to do that unless you're planning to Kickstart the whole affair.
Evidence, so couple years down the road there's a clear answer to every "now, whose dumb idea *this* was" :why_so_serious:
Man. This idea has Raph or Todd written all fucking over it.

I can not stress how unbelievably daft this entire project is. Liking these people makes it harder for me to go "stop." Harder is relative though. It's still not too difficult to say that.
What aspects of the project do you think are bad?  My doubts come from a funding perspective, as nothing this big can be kickstarted (at least not without a lot of other major funding coming from somewhere else).  The game itself, if they actually make one like they are planning, I think can be quite successful in its own niche.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: schild on February 04, 2015, 05:04:12 AM
What aspects of the project do you think are bad?

Quote
The game itself, if they actually make one like they are planning, I think can be quite successful in its own niche.

Exactly which MMOG came out as actually planned early on?


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Teleku on February 04, 2015, 05:13:08 AM
So, you think its just going to evolve into a generic DIKU instead of an open world PvP Sandbox?


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Falconeer on February 04, 2015, 05:45:28 AM
What I think will happen, and of course I wish it wouldn't, is:

- It will be full of bugs for a long time and lots of promised features and subsystems will take ages to be implemented.
- Because of Early Access people will be allowed in very soon in development and will be very unhappy and very vocal about everything, creating a toxic environment that will confuse developers who will lose focus and will dilute the original design. Generating even more drama.
- The Early Access buggy unhappiness will generate bad word of mouth and the project will be permanently hurt by bad press. People will love to make fun of this game and will take every chance to mock it publicly.  
- Lots of stuff will eventually be cut before release. Adding to the drama and death threats from some people and pointing and laughing from some other.
- It will turn out that it's harder than they thought to have these kind of players (the hardcore PvP niche) to actually play2crush instead of play2exploit, as the majority will do everything they can to exploit the server rules or just dance around win conditions in order to gain as much as possible at the expenses of fair and fun campaigns. Either you will be in one of the big winning groups, or you won't be able to do anything crushed between empty lands (zones that are not useful) or pure steamroll (zones that are worthy).
- Ultimately, combat will probably be janky and not as snappy or interesting, making the whole thing quite unpleasant to play.

Some or all these conditions will show up and will infect Crowfall before it can get where it dreams to go because this is the history of MMORPGs save for a handful of exceptions. Statistically, it has very few chances to succeed. Especially due to its ambitious design.
Then again, sometimes people win the lotto and sometimes an EVE happens, so you can't blame them for trying.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Malakili on February 04, 2015, 07:56:39 AM
Quote
- Because of Early Access people will be allowed in very soon in development and will be very unhappy and very vocal about everything, creating a toxic environment that will confuse developers who will lose focus and will dilute the original design. Generating even more drama.

Not to mention that making something public means they've got to spend time putting out fires insofar as it relates to people actually being able to play the game that really they shouldn't be worried about.  I see this all the time. Big features get pushed back and pushed back because players are clamoring for the unfinished stuff in the game to be more clean and playable.  But that isn't necessarily the right thing to do during development.  I guess I don't know TOO much about managing this kind of project, but early access seems like it throws a huge wrench into the works.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Falconeer on February 04, 2015, 08:28:39 AM
I would say that Early Access does a great job for lots of games, but terrible things for MMOs. I hope they will not do an Early Access, and will stick to closed betas for a long time. Interestingly, I used to think otherwise up to a few years ago. Early Access, which is paid beta, is a very questionable arrangement to begin with, but it really brings out the worst from the customers.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Malakili on February 04, 2015, 08:37:12 AM
Early Access, which is paid beta, is a very questionable arrangement to begin with, but it really brings out the worst from the customers.

Well, if you're a paying customer you have at least some right to be upset if what you have is garbage.  I know people should understand they are buying the finished product and that in the meantime they've bought the opportunity to play the unfinished version, but that isn't how it works.  Especially not with free to play ascending as the pay model of choice.  When a early access game has a fully functioning cash shop, early access feels... questionable.

I guess the first game I remember doing this was Minecraft.  I bought into that just days after I found out what it was way back in alpha right before the very first f13 server went up (summer 2010?).  I loved the hell out of that game from the beginning, but the very worst Minecraft ever could be is legos.  And legos are awesome.  I think Minecraft's insane success helped push the model.  The problem is that most games aren't  Minecraft.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Falconeer on February 04, 2015, 08:43:05 AM
Some new screenshots showing off the Templar class, and what a generic zombie mob would look over the four seasons as corruption kicks in. Too bad it's only concept art.

(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/3584773/CROW%20Templar%20Crowfall_T1Gameplay2.jpg)

More under the spoiler.



Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Threash on February 04, 2015, 09:03:06 AM
It says right there pre alpha game footage, not concept art. Oh nm, didn't see the last one.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Paelos on February 04, 2015, 09:08:27 AM
In other news, can someone dig up who the fuck is funding this thing? If it's being funded by I don't know, Massive Gamer magazine's #1 Most Influential Game Developer in the World, that's one thing. If there's like, actual American Dollars behind it, I want to know who it is.

I want to know who still falls for the video game long con.

SEC Filings say the thing was created in June of last year, had 10 investors on the listing with Todd as the filing principle, and posted $2,354,921 of equity in the startup.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Triforcer on February 04, 2015, 10:10:51 AM
As I said earlier, even if kickstarter is good for another 2 or 3 million, 5 million is not enough.  Camelot has that, and has been hobbled by a lack of programmers. 


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: tazelbain on February 04, 2015, 10:17:52 AM
Ya, for projects that need 10s of millions, KS is part of your PR campaign not your primary source of financing.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: tazelbain on February 04, 2015, 10:34:28 AM
Also they need another campaign type on carebear-side where very little resources carry over. Maybe a progressive mode that starts off with players/builds being nearly invulnerable and, as the seasons progress, they become more vulnerable.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Hutch on February 04, 2015, 10:54:41 AM
Funny this topic came up, they made a post about financing today.

http://community.crowfall.com/index.php?/topic/1717-020415-update-from-the-founders/ (http://community.crowfall.com/index.php?/topic/1717-020415-update-from-the-founders/)

And a link to the company bio's (this one might be behind their login):
http://crowfall.com/#/team (http://crowfall.com/#/team)



Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Falconeer on February 04, 2015, 11:14:17 AM
Quote
We've invested our savings and went without salaries for over a year to get this venture started. We took this risk, and our families supported us in doing it, because we fundamentally believe that there is an audience for this vision.

Horrible echoes of McQuaid!
Anyway, statistically in the USA how many times does that usually pay out, and how many times leaves you bankrupt and everyone you hired unemployed?


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: sam, an eggplant on February 04, 2015, 11:15:21 AM
Most startups fail.

But where would we be without entrepreneurs?


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Paelos on February 04, 2015, 11:26:29 AM
Quote
We've invested our savings and went without salaries for over a year to get this venture started. We took this risk, and our families supported us in doing it, because we fundamentally believe that there is an audience for this vision.

Horrible echoes of McQuaid!
Anyway, statistically in the USA how many times does that usually pay out, and how many times leaves you bankrupt and everyone you hired unemployed?

Some estimate that 90% of them fail across the board. So, yeah.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Pennilenko on February 04, 2015, 11:30:19 AM
Eh, I'll throw some money at the crowdfunding, not because I think it's going to be a hit or anything, but because I think some of the names involved should have a shot at making their game.

I mean hell, I spent like $45 bucks on Star Citizen, clearly I have no common sense.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Threash on February 04, 2015, 11:31:57 AM
I threw 20 bucks at some mechwarrior browser game that doesn't even exist anymore, no shame.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: schild on February 04, 2015, 01:27:42 PM
In other news, can someone dig up who the fuck is funding this thing? If it's being funded by I don't know, Massive Gamer magazine's #1 Most Influential Game Developer in the World, that's one thing. If there's like, actual American Dollars behind it, I want to know who it is.

I want to know who still falls for the video game long con.

SEC Filings say the thing was created in June of last year, had 10 investors on the listing with Todd as the filing principle, and posted $2,354,921 of equity in the startup.
List the 10 investors? Need to know who is addicted to gambling and making risky bets in gaming.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Paelos on February 04, 2015, 01:35:59 PM
SEC filings don't list investors. It's privately held, not public. Two of them are disclosed, the rest are probably friends or venture capital people they know.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Hutch on February 04, 2015, 02:35:47 PM
In other news, can someone dig up who the fuck is funding this thing? If it's being funded by I don't know, Massive Gamer magazine's #1 Most Influential Game Developer in the World, that's one thing. If there's like, actual American Dollars behind it, I want to know who it is.

I want to know who still falls for the video game long con.

SEC Filings say the thing was created in June of last year, had 10 investors on the listing with Todd as the filing principle, and posted $2,354,921 of equity in the startup.
List the 10 investors? Need to know who is addicted to gambling and making risky bets in gaming.
Getting ready to unload a bridge?


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: WayAbvPar on February 04, 2015, 03:16:16 PM
Back to (potential) gameplay- how are solo players handled? What is in it for them? If all the big picture stuff is solely guild v guild that is not going to go over so well with the casual solo crowd. Sure, not the prime audience, but the more of them you can attract the better chance the game has of not flopping.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Threash on February 04, 2015, 03:45:36 PM
Yeah, i think its just not the game for them.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Paelos on February 04, 2015, 04:56:50 PM
Back to (potential) gameplay- how are solo players handled? What is in it for them? If all the big picture stuff is solely guild v guild that is not going to go over so well with the casual solo crowd. Sure, not the prime audience, but the more of them you can attract the better chance the game has of not flopping.

Solo players get gang-banged until they join a guild.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Malakili on February 04, 2015, 05:10:32 PM
Back to (potential) gameplay- how are solo players handled? What is in it for them? If all the big picture stuff is solely guild v guild that is not going to go over so well with the casual solo crowd. Sure, not the prime audience, but the more of them you can attract the better chance the game has of not flopping.

Solo players get gang-banged until they join a guild.

Like their ancestors did.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Bzalthek on February 04, 2015, 09:39:08 PM
Man, voip totally ruined the mangina free loot scene.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Triforcer on February 05, 2015, 10:39:47 AM
Newest archetype is man-hating cabal of ultra-feminists.  Read the biography, I am not projecting here  :awesome_for_real:


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Hutch on February 05, 2015, 10:45:13 AM
Here's the link. The Assassin is depicted as a winged elf aka "Fae".
http://crowfall.com/#/archetype/assassin (http://crowfall.com/#/archetype/assassin)

Quote
BACKSTORY

I had a brother, once… for a few minutes. I think I was born first?

The Farewell Kiss is swift and painless. We are not monsters, after all. No one needs to suffer.

Some mothers cry. Some plead for assistance. My mother did neither.

For generations, this has been our practice. For generations, we have known peace.

Men do not belong in the Riverlands…. not even the breeders. They are captured, they serve their purpose, and they are killed. Many treat their enemies less kindly, I think.

Think of the worst tyrant in history. How many lives could have been saved – how many wars averted – by a sharp blade, at the moment of his birth?

Why did I say HIS birth?

You know why. When I asked you to think of a tyrant, no woman crossed your mind. One life, for many. Quite the bargain, yes?

I say to you: the Hunger is not your enemy. Your enemy walks among you, charming and handsome, with a tongue full of lies.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Merusk on February 05, 2015, 11:23:48 AM
Hate the trope already as I know several female tyrants & murderers.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Threash on February 05, 2015, 11:51:56 AM
Goddam gender locked classes, fucking hell.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Draegan on February 05, 2015, 12:47:59 PM
I kind of view it more like Mobas or fighting games where you get a hero to play rather than your own class. I honestly don't care about gender locking or whatever. It's just ammunition for people who care way too much about small details.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Malakili on February 05, 2015, 12:58:17 PM
I'm going to just be honest here, I don't care what the flavor or gender of the classes is if they play well.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Paelos on February 05, 2015, 01:20:29 PM
I'll never play that type of character, so whatevs.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Falconeer on February 06, 2015, 09:23:48 AM
New stuff for today is nothing but a mob concept (The Hellcat, going through the 4 stages of Corruption) and a short animation video. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nNzUGxaob3Y)


(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/3584773/CROW%20hellcat%20Crowfall_HellcatConcept.jpg)


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Paelos on February 06, 2015, 09:39:15 AM
It's going to come down to combat videos, crafting specs, and some actual insight on the pvp systems for me. The art and theme isn't enough to scare me off (like TERA) which is basically all I ask from an art team. Don't suck so hard I feel dirty playing your shit.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: tazelbain on February 06, 2015, 12:14:00 PM
Since I believe that a game like this is too expensive to built for a niche market, it will come down what mass appeal I think it has. Without a newbie/causual friendly campaigns, the games mass appeal will be near 0.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Paelos on February 06, 2015, 12:49:11 PM
Well if they have $2.5M in capital and they can raise $20M in additional funding I think they can do it. My concern is if they are going to crowdfund the game, don't do it just to secure other investors. Those are the worst kickstarters where people lose the most money.

If you can get 200,000 subs for $10 each, you've recovered your outlay within a year. Then you can switch models or transition to whatever you like in terms of revenue.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Falconeer on February 06, 2015, 01:20:23 PM
I am going to be a supporter of this game if it gets even close to what they are promising. But...

If you can get 200,000 subs for $10 each

 :why_so_serious:

C'mon.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Paelos on February 06, 2015, 01:32:38 PM
That shouldn't be that hard.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Threash on February 06, 2015, 01:34:42 PM
Come on...


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Malakili on February 06, 2015, 01:46:07 PM
That shouldn't be that hard.

Wait, is this green? Tell me it's green.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Viin on February 06, 2015, 03:34:52 PM
How many people play MMOs?

Is this known to be any good? http://users.telenet.be/mmodata/Charts/TotalSubs.png


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Paelos on February 06, 2015, 03:57:48 PM
OK so what's reasonable for you people? 100k? 50k?

I mean you realize the market expanded right? This isn't EQ of 2001.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Nija on February 06, 2015, 04:06:56 PM
The market hasn't expanded for punching-yourself-in-the-crotch games like this one.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: shiznitz on February 06, 2015, 04:20:14 PM
PS2 gets a few thousand a night across a few servers and 90% of those people don't pay a dime.  Crowfall might get the attention of 50,000 people is they are brilliant but only a minority of that will pay to play.  Hard to see how the business model works.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Malakili on February 06, 2015, 04:23:48 PM
OK so what's reasonable for you people? 100k? 50k?

I mean you realize the market expanded right? This isn't EQ of 2001.

The market has expanded, but subscription based games aren't the hotness anymore.  200,000 subscribers at 10 bucks a month sustained for an entire year would strike me as an absolutely HUGE success story for this game.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Threash on February 06, 2015, 04:28:55 PM
Mass appeal games with loads of funding can't get 200k subs anymore, it would be ridiculous to expect this to. 


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Typhon on February 06, 2015, 04:42:32 PM
I don't think this is a sub-game.  I think this is a GW game with new rule sets/worlds as the DLC.  And hats.   Not entirely kidding about the hats, but everything else was serious.

A PvP game needs players.  They are already starting off cutting off everyone who is turned off by the format.  Add subs on top of that and they are just wasting their time.

I don't think what they've described and the capital they seem to have on hand could support a "hats only" model.  Which leaves game purchase + DLC + hats.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: WayAbvPar on February 06, 2015, 04:45:32 PM
They should make the default server type FFA and then charge people to access the increasingly more carebear-ish options at each step.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: HaemishM on February 06, 2015, 05:23:16 PM
OK so what's reasonable for you people? 100k? 50k?

I mean you realize the market expanded right? This isn't EQ of 2001.

The market has expanded, but subscription based games aren't the hotness anymore.  200,000 subscribers at 10 bucks a month sustained for an entire year would strike me as an absolutely HUGE success story for this game.

This. Big name games with big name funding with big marketing budgets i.e. Bioware/Star Wars couldn't sustain enough subs to keep from going F2P (granted they had an insanely stupid dev budget to make up). A Play2Crush PVP game made by no-names (and I don't mean no-names in the sense of nobodies but a dev house that has no prior releases) with an uncertain marketing budget that's crowdfunding? 25-50k subscribers ought to be a more realistic level of success and you'll be lucky if you can hold subs for 3 months instead of 6.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Draegan on February 06, 2015, 05:27:49 PM
You are aware that SWTOR has around a half million subscribers and three times that in free to play and cash shop players. It's obvious a game like this isn't the target audience of the majority of people here, but there is a huge market for player verse player games. The only thing is that every single game that totes PVP has been shit, but I think initial purchases of games shows that there is a demand.

If this game isn't shitty, I think it can be successful at the 150-300k mark. It's almost impossible to make a non-shitty MMO these days though.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Paelos on February 06, 2015, 05:44:45 PM
Draegan and I actually agree, I don't think this is anywhere near as complicated as yall are making it sound.

The players are out there, they want something that's not even close to WoW. Shit even TESO had subs show up for 3-6 months, and it was a dumpster fire.

The thing about MMOs these days is that with the amount of information, it's easy to get people involved if the game is good. The key is good.

Shit I think the rebooted FF game is up over what? 1M subs now?


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Draegan on February 06, 2015, 05:58:31 PM
I actually forgot about FF. I would guess around 400k. Only guessing though.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: schild on February 06, 2015, 05:59:48 PM
You have to have an actual working game (to some degree / lol early access) to really make money. Let's get there first.

(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Paelos on February 06, 2015, 06:08:03 PM
Nah I hope we can get to at least 50 pages of thread before they even have a plan.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Velorath on February 06, 2015, 06:35:41 PM
You have to have an actual working game (to some degree / lol early access) to really make money. Let's get there first.

(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻

Or at the very least some concept art of spaceships.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Falconeer on February 06, 2015, 06:38:59 PM
You are creating something that just doesn't exist today. And it's funny how on f13 you can have pages and pages where the majority keeps saying that NO ONE wants to play a full loot pvp game, then all of a sudden a few pop up saying 200k subs are possible. 200k players wlling to pay monthly for THIS kind of game?! There aren't 200k players that would play it for free. There aren't even 200k players that would play it if they got paid 10$ a month to do it. We (those who love this kind of games) have been saying it for a long time, and even recently, in this and other threads. You can't just decide that YEAH WHY NOT?! Because not. There are not 200k players willing to play2crush. I really believe things could be different in five years or so, but right now they just don't exist and I really hope the people making Crowfall don't believe the two of you.

It is irrelevant if Final Fantasy or SWTOR make a billion subs a month. First of all you are comparing IPs like Final Fantasy and Star Wars to... Crowfall. Shame on you. Second, you are comparing studios like Square Enix and Bioware to... Todd Coleman & friends. Are you serious?

So yes, if they somehow made an awesome game, eventually the play2crush market could grow into some bigger numbers. But considering where they are starting from, the little funds and the negative bias people have about these games, it's insane to think they could aspire to anything more than 50k subs at first. In fact, that would probably be a miraculous success.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Threash on February 06, 2015, 06:50:18 PM
Yeah, 50k subs or 200k free players would be a success.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Draegan on February 06, 2015, 06:53:02 PM
You are creating something that just doesn't exist today. And it's funny how on f13 you can have pages and pages where the majority keeps saying that NO ONE wants to play a full loot pvp game, then all of a sudden a few pop up saying 200k subs are possible. 200k players wlling to pay monthly for THIS kind of game?! There aren't 200k players that would play it for free. There aren't even 200k players that would play it if they got paid 10$ a month to do it. We (those who love this kind of games) have been saying it for a long time, and even recently, in this and other threads. You can't just decide that YEAH WHY NOT?! Because not. There are not 200k players willing to play2crush. I really believe things could be different in five years or so, but right now they just don't exist and I really hope the people making Crowfall don't believe the two of you.

It is irrelevant if Final Fantasy or SWTOR make a billion subs a month. First of all you are comparing IPs like Final Fantasy and Star Wars to... Crowfall. Shame on you. Second, you are comparing studios like Square Enix and Bioware to... Todd Coleman & friends. Are you serious?

So yes, if they somehow made an awesome game, eventually the play2crush market could grow into some bigger numbers. But considering where they are starting from, the little funds and the negative bias people have about these games, it's insane to think they could aspire to anything more than 50k subs at first. In fact, that would probably be a miraculous success.

We weren't comparing games, but pointing out successful sub models still exist. Had really nothing to do with the game.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Paelos on February 07, 2015, 02:13:47 PM
I'm pointing out that 200k isn't some kind of mass appeal. If the combat is the same wow flavored combat garbage? The game will fail badly. If it's remotely interesting or action based? It can hit a big niche being for that type of game


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Draegan on February 07, 2015, 03:54:50 PM
They already stated that it's some form of action based. It's got that for them at least.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Threash on February 07, 2015, 03:59:54 PM
They said no tab target, melee skills hit in an arc in front of you.  So at worse GW2 style combat i guess.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Malakili on February 12, 2015, 12:00:36 PM
http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game/1214/view/news/read/33854/Crowfall-Buy-Once-Play-Forever-Revealed-as-Revenue-Model.html

Quote
The Crowfall site has a trio of goodies for fans today. The first comes in the form of the first revealed spell caster called the Confessor. The Confessor's page has a small, but interesting, back story as well as both male and female screenshots.

The second treat is a rather large lore article that gives the first information about the origins of the known Universe, and a look at Valkyn's children. Called "War of the Gods Part 1, it can be read here.

Lastly, potential players get the first information about the pricing model that Crowfall will utilize in a new FAQ. Crowfall will be a "buy once, play forever" game. According to estimations, the price will hover around the $50 mark but optional VIP membership will be offered for $15 a month. Benefits of VIP include:

-“Behind the scenes” access to the development of the game
-VIP members can use passive training for all 3 character slots (not just 1)
-Priority access to all game servers
-VIP frame / badge on the forums
-Discount pricing on any purchases
-Other cool (non-balance affecting) benefits as we think of them!

Additionally, players can trade goods and services to other players and attain VIP status. At this time, the pricing model is for North America only until such time as international publication rights are purchased.

Seems ok I guess.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Lantyssa on February 12, 2015, 12:14:05 PM
An acceptable pricing model.  I may hate the game that comes out, but at least they're doing some things right.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Gimfain on February 12, 2015, 12:15:28 PM
Its a good model for this kind of game, P2P would just make it another dead game within 3 months where it would have to switch model anyway, and noone would want a P2W cash shop.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: WayAbvPar on February 12, 2015, 12:42:13 PM
Hopefully VIP will be purchasable with in game currency as well.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Threash on February 12, 2015, 12:52:19 PM
Hopefully VIP will be purchasable with in game currency as well.

Thats what the quote says.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Paelos on February 12, 2015, 01:13:41 PM
Sounds good by me. Buy this game, get perks with a sub.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Triforcer on February 12, 2015, 01:44:30 PM
I am assuming "buy cosmetic items" means "buy hypercrates" or "buy keys and have a 1% chance at a rare hat effect."  Lottery tickets fly off the cash shop faster than known quantities.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Paelos on February 12, 2015, 01:46:34 PM
I am assuming "buy cosmetic items" means "buy hypercrates" or "buy keys and have a 1% chance at a rare hat effect."  Lottery tickets fly off the cash shop faster than known quantities.

Sure but I don't care about that stuff. If they make money there, go for it. I'm not that market. I'm a sub or don't sub market.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Threash on February 12, 2015, 02:19:42 PM
As long as it is cosmetic stuff or other things that don't impact gameplay it doesn't matter one bit what they do with the shop.  But yes, gambling has been shown to be the most successful method so we'll probably see lots of that.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Maven on February 12, 2015, 02:38:34 PM
I'll wait for the Beta.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Ginaz on February 12, 2015, 02:46:03 PM
Their VIP program sounds a lot like what TSW does, which is good because I don't think I've heard many bad things about how TSW handles it.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Falconeer on February 12, 2015, 08:20:05 PM
Under the "account" tab on the official page there's an entry that tells you in what beta group you are. It was first come first serve. I thought I was among the very first, but it says beta group 3  :oh_i_see:


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Threash on February 12, 2015, 08:43:29 PM
I'm guessing 3 was the first group you could get into when the site went live.  I'm in 3 also and i didn't sign up until this thread came up.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: HaemishM on February 12, 2015, 08:50:56 PM
I just now signed up and I'm in beta 6.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: KallDrexx on February 12, 2015, 08:52:11 PM
Only thing that worries me in that list is priority entrance into servers.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Nija on February 12, 2015, 09:17:42 PM
The list of asshats working on this doesn't worry you?


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Paelos on February 12, 2015, 10:08:16 PM
The list of asshats working on this doesn't worry you?

Raph's an asshat now?


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Tannhauser on February 13, 2015, 05:51:33 AM
I signed up for the beta.  I really like the artwork and some of their concepts, like the Hunger.  Confessor is an early favorite archetype. 


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Paelos on February 13, 2015, 08:50:57 AM
I signed up too. Then again I sign up for a lot of shit. I betaed TESO which is why I bet against it in the first place.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Nija on February 13, 2015, 10:09:47 AM
Raph's an asshat now?

If only I could dredge up my remarks about some of the UO decisions in alpha/beta. I've had it out for him since he was known as DD, not by first name.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Hutch on February 13, 2015, 10:32:16 AM
I didn't sign up for the beta.

I signed up for their forums, which are already providing more entertainment than Crowfall (the game) ever likely will.  :why_so_serious:


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Triforcer on February 13, 2015, 11:34:18 AM
Raph's an asshat now?

If only I could dredge up my remarks about some of the UO decisions in alpha/beta. I've had it out for him since he was known as DD, not by first name.

I guess it depends on if your definition of "asshat" in the MMO space is "He once increased cleric aggro in pre-Kunark EQ by 3%, so in the last 17 years my incandescent eternal rage has blazed at him, every game he ever worked on, and the wretched earth that allows him to exist" or "dumb, pathological liar who actively holds his customers in sneering contempt."

There are a lot of devs in Column B, but Raph isn't one of them.  If you are a Column A type- well, I guess Raph is evil too!


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Lantyssa on February 13, 2015, 12:06:23 PM
Raph can poke fun at HAM while giving us a 200 page analysis on what it was supposed to do and where it went wrong.  He's neither a bad guy nor an asshat, and I doubt you'd find anyone in the industry or tangently related that disagrees with that.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: schild on February 13, 2015, 12:27:30 PM
I don't think anyone expects Raph to willfully make a bad game. I think we expect him not to see projects to completion or until he "finds the fun," and he falls short with a measure of integrity, which most folks can't do.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Rendakor on February 13, 2015, 01:04:46 PM
I didn't sign up for the beta.

I signed up for their forums, which are already providing more entertainment than Crowfall (the game) ever likely will.  :why_so_serious:
Forum sign ups are closed now, and I'm saddened by this.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Nija on February 13, 2015, 04:13:50 PM
He couldn't even find a title to his liking on his project, for one reason or another, so I expect him to be gone ASAP once some design docs are written. At that point they'll partially be implemented and we'll be left with some half assed system(s) for the remainder of the game.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: naum on February 13, 2015, 04:55:38 PM
I didn't sign up for the beta.

I signed up for their forums, which are already providing more entertainment than Crowfall (the game) ever likely will.  :why_so_serious:

New sig!



Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Hutch on February 17, 2015, 11:30:57 AM
The Crowfall devs will be using a tool called Voxel Farm to build the terrain of the game's worlds. The idea is to use pre-created art assets and procedural generation to come up with a new set of terrain for each campaign.

Forum Announcement (also includes the elk-man archetype). (http://community.crowfall.com/index.php?/topic/2271-021715-voxel-farm-elken-stalkers/)

Voxel FAQ (http://crowfall.com/#/faq/54e359997450fc794e7711c0)

Quote
Why is this important for Crowfall?

Crowfall is a mix of an MMORPG and a strategy game.

You know that feeling you get, the first time you log in to a new game – that rush of exploration and mystery? The sense of excitement that comes during first turn of a game like Civilization – the urgency to explore, to expand, to conquer? that’s the emotion that we want, every time you enter a new Campaign World.

One of the things that can make a strategy game grow stale is knowledge of the game board. If players learn that the key to winning is to always “take control of point A” and “avoid the choke point at B,” it makes subsequent games less interesting.

By using an algorithmic approach to create new game Worlds at the “push of a button,” Crowfall can keep the players constantly guessing and keep the game feeling new.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: taolurker on February 17, 2015, 12:39:05 PM
ROFLMAO
/me points at the Landmark thread and laughs some more.

(http://i.imgur.com/aVZgT.gif)


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Paelos on February 17, 2015, 12:42:11 PM
I like the idea of procedural made worlds. That's something I think most games should try in the future in addition to restarting servers regularly.

The destruction worlds shit has been promised time and again for decades. It never works out the way people envision.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Merusk on February 17, 2015, 02:41:38 PM
Hey maybe this time we'll get 3d movement beyond jumping

Nah


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: sam, an eggplant on February 17, 2015, 05:37:09 PM
That's not quite true-- mass-market AAA MMOs can't retain 200k subs. They can get 600k subs at launch, easily. Even Age of Conan hit that. ESO sold 300k physical copies alone, meaning it sold over a million total. Wildstar sold a bit under half that.

Spending that initial $60 is a huge hurdle. That initial investment gets you through the door and psychologically inclined to enjoy the game, because that validates your purchase.

There are teeming masses of people ready and willing to pay $15/month for the next great MMO. Problem is, nobody released it!


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Rendakor on February 17, 2015, 05:44:55 PM
Did you miss a page or reply to the wrong thread?


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Malakili on February 17, 2015, 05:47:34 PM

There are teeming masses of people ready and willing to pay $15/month for the next great MMO. Problem is, nobody released it!

I don't know if this is true.  There are masses of people that will pay 15 bucks a month for a great/popular/iconic MMO.  Let's not forget that WoW became a pop culture thing for a while, not just a good MMO.  Soccer moms were playing WoW.  Are soccer moms "waiting for the next great MMO"?  I doubt it.  But they'll play it if it becomes a "thing."  A confluence of things are needed to reach that tier of popularity and even being a great game isn't enough.

But I think a lot of people don't pay any real amount of attention to it.  They'll just buy the thing if a critical mass of their friends play it or whatever.  



Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Lantyssa on February 17, 2015, 07:04:24 PM
I don't know if this is true.  There are masses of people that will pay 15 bucks a month for a great/popular/iconic MMO.  Let's not forget that WoW became a pop culture thing for a while, not just a good MMO.  Soccer moms were playing WoW.  Are soccer moms "waiting for the next great MMO"?  I doubt it.  But they'll play it if it becomes a "thing."  A confluence of things are needed to reach that tier of popularity and even being a great game isn't enough.
I really doubt any new game will work with a $15 required subscription.  WoW will be the last.  The generation that accepted it as a general rule is getting older and has less time.  The newer generations of players are more flighty.  It's just not something which is appealing to any demographic.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Nija on February 18, 2015, 10:02:18 AM
Wow is already not the last - look at FF14.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Draegan on February 18, 2015, 10:33:39 AM
Or SWTOR.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Lantyssa on February 18, 2015, 11:32:40 AM
Not sure if SWToR was sarcasm or not... so just in case I'll counter with ESO, DDO, and any number of games that have switched from a sub model to f2p or f2p with an optional value-added sub.

WoW numbers are still larger than FF14 by a significant margin.  Ard pointed it out to me last night, but the fact that nearly everyone forgets it exists emphasizes my point that no one is going to look to it as a model to emulate.

Business belief and consumer psychology will ensure the subscription model won't be dominant for a long time, if ever again.  It's not viable for a mass-appeal game on either side of the equation so you're really unlikely to see it unless it's a game that takes risks in a lot of other areas as well.  And for some reason, money men don't like risks.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: sam, an eggplant on February 18, 2015, 11:41:07 AM
There are masses of people that will pay 15 bucks a month for a great/popular/iconic MMO.  Let's not forget that WoW became a pop culture thing for a while, not just a good MMO.  Soccer moms were playing WoW.  Are soccer moms "waiting for the next great MMO"?  I doubt it.  But they'll play it if it becomes a "thing."  A confluence of things are needed to reach that tier of popularity and even being a great game isn't enough.
WoW became a popular sensation because it was a truly great game.

Nothing else has taken its place simply because nobody has managed to create the Next Great MMO. That doesn't mean it will never happen, just that it hasn't happened yet. At one (admittedly much briefer) point Everquest seemed an unstoppable juggernaut too.

(Back to the subject of this thread, Crowfall will not be the Next Great MMO. They aren't even aiming for it. A wise move.)


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Draegan on February 18, 2015, 11:44:42 AM
Not sure if SWToR was sarcasm or not... so just in case I'll counter with ESO, DDO, and any number of games that have switched from a sub model to f2p or f2p with an optional value-added sub.

WoW numbers are still larger than FF14 by a significant margin.  Ard pointed it out to me last night, but the fact that nearly everyone forgets it exists emphasizes my point that no one is going to look to it as a model to emulate.

Business belief and consumer psychology will ensure the subscription model won't be dominant for a long time, if ever again.  It's not viable for a mass-appeal game on either side of the equation so you're really unlikely to see it unless it's a game that takes risks in a lot of other areas as well.  And for some reason, money men don't like risks.

From what I've read SWTOR has just under a half million subs and close to 2 million players overall.

People are generally Ok with subscriptions, it's the barrier of entry that causes the loss of players which is a box price.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: sam, an eggplant on February 18, 2015, 11:50:38 AM
People are generally Ok with subscriptions, it's the barrier of entry that causes the loss of players which is a box price.
I completely agree! ESO sold 1m copies, but didn't retain many of them. That's why I keep coming back to retention. People are standing around ready to pay $60. MMOs sell.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Hutch on February 18, 2015, 11:58:08 AM
Not sure if SWToR was sarcasm or not... so just in case I'll counter with ESO, DDO, and any number of games that have switched from a sub model to f2p or f2p with an optional value-added sub.

I don't think he was being sarcastic. I think he was ignoring the part where you said
$15 required subscription.

TOR, like many other MMOs that have come before and after it, is F2P. It has an optional subscription.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Lantyssa on February 18, 2015, 01:06:18 PM
Exactly.

Not paying a sub cuts you off completely from games like WoW and FFXIV.  Tor I have the option of still doing things, even if I'm more restricted.  I still have the stickiness of my friends and guild.  I still can throw a few bucks at that cool outfit.  I'm just not forced to pay a sub.  It causes there to be a much softer barrier.

It's a superior model, and as restrictive as SWTOR is to play without a sub, it has three times more non-sub players if Draegan's numbers are close.  (And what's that ratio for WoW and FFXIV if you consider Asian markets that don't run on the same sub model as North America and Europe?)


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: LC on February 18, 2015, 01:27:49 PM
Pretty much every cash shop game says "we aren't like those other guys" in the beginning. I can't wait to play 2 crush pay 2 crush.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Gimfain on February 18, 2015, 01:31:36 PM
Not sure if SWToR was sarcasm or not... so just in case I'll counter with ESO, DDO, and any number of games that have switched from a sub model to f2p or f2p with an optional value-added sub.

WoW numbers are still larger than FF14 by a significant margin.  Ard pointed it out to me last night, but the fact that nearly everyone forgets it exists emphasizes my point that no one is going to look to it as a model to emulate.

Business belief and consumer psychology will ensure the subscription model won't be dominant for a long time, if ever again.  It's not viable for a mass-appeal game on either side of the equation so you're really unlikely to see it unless it's a game that takes risks in a lot of other areas as well.  And for some reason, money men don't like risks.

From what I've read SWTOR has just under a half million subs and close to 2 million players overall.

People are generally Ok with subscriptions, it's the barrier of entry that causes the loss of players which is a box price.
Your 500k subs and 2 million players was 4-6 months after fremium launch which was two years ago. There are no new numbers because EA likes the image that swtor turned to a popular game ever since it transitioned to fremium model.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: sam, an eggplant on February 18, 2015, 02:22:04 PM
They keep making expansions. I don't see EA, of all companies, continuing to invest in a loser.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Draegan on February 18, 2015, 02:45:55 PM
Not sure if SWToR was sarcasm or not... so just in case I'll counter with ESO, DDO, and any number of games that have switched from a sub model to f2p or f2p with an optional value-added sub.

WoW numbers are still larger than FF14 by a significant margin.  Ard pointed it out to me last night, but the fact that nearly everyone forgets it exists emphasizes my point that no one is going to look to it as a model to emulate.

Business belief and consumer psychology will ensure the subscription model won't be dominant for a long time, if ever again.  It's not viable for a mass-appeal game on either side of the equation so you're really unlikely to see it unless it's a game that takes risks in a lot of other areas as well.  And for some reason, money men don't like risks.

From what I've read SWTOR has just under a half million subs and close to 2 million players overall.

People are generally Ok with subscriptions, it's the barrier of entry that causes the loss of players which is a box price.
Your 500k subs and 2 million players was 4-6 months after fremium launch which was two years ago. There are no new numbers because EA likes the image that swtor turned to a popular game ever since it transitioned to fremium model.

I'm just going off of a Polygon article from August of 2014.

http://www.polygon.com/2014/8/14/6001503/star-wars-the-old-republic-2014-players-ea-bioware

They have a $100M+ revenue stream from everything. That's high enough for me to call it popular.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Lantyssa on February 18, 2015, 03:34:07 PM
It's not enough to call it a sub game though.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: sam, an eggplant on February 18, 2015, 03:47:29 PM
We need to get away from discarding games with optional subscriptions as failures-- all that matters is continued profit and sustainability. Who cares if it's a "sub game" or not? They managed to successfully segment their market. That's cool. That makes sense.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Typhon on February 18, 2015, 04:16:11 PM
When the conversation starts with, "people are fine with a subscription, you just need a good MMO to be made", it's kind of hard to get away from a conversation about subs.  Well, not until someone concedes that point, anyway.

I'm just speculating, but I don't think Lant actually gives a rats ass about the sub conversation apart from how the conversation began and the now-F2P games that were offered as evidence that, "people are fine with subs, just need good game".

"What makes an online game count as a success", is a different conversation that we've also beaten to death recently... in this very same thread I think.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Lantyssa on February 18, 2015, 04:29:44 PM
Pretty much.

I don't think having an optional sub means failure.  I think it's smart.  I'm saying sub-only is no longer viable for new titles if they want to maximize their profits, which businesses usually do.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: sam, an eggplant on February 18, 2015, 04:52:57 PM
Well sure, you can't segment the market if you only offer a single product at a single price.

But riddle me this-- should WoW go B2P with optional subs and a EVE PLEX-type payment scheme? Would they make more money in the mid and long-term?

Or would all the untold millions of people subscribing to play casually and chat with friends simply stop paying between patches?


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Typhon on February 18, 2015, 05:01:11 PM
Riddle me this, if you are making an assload of money... I mean a metric fuck ton of it, say, like WoW, would you do anything to fuck that up or would you ride that gravy train just as long as you could?

My answer would be, "Fuck NO! Ride that train!"


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: sam, an eggplant on February 18, 2015, 05:09:48 PM
Welll, that would be my response too. Market segmentation is a valid and accepted practice, but it doesn't always make sense. Even though it would probably work for WoW, and make them more money long-term, in the short term they would be murdered. They don't have the freedom to change their business model, because the risk is too high.

Similarly, if I'm spending hundreds of millions of dollars to develop a new AAA+ MMO with a world-class IP like Elder Scrolls or certainly Star Wars, I'm not launching B2P or F2P. I'm launching subscription-only, because I'm aiming straight for the stars. If it turns out that dangit, even spending $400m with the Marvel Avengers IP, I'm not going to dethrone WoW, I plan ahead to pivot to a new business model. Which is exactly what ESO is doing, and what (so far) Wildstar is failing to do.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Lantyssa on February 18, 2015, 06:23:47 PM
Riddle me this, why use WoW as anything but an example of an outlier? :-p

Crazy-time!  Let's look at it like this for a new game and assuming you're not total shit or the best thing since you had that dream about that perfect game:

Sub-only is going to have X subscribers.  These are going to be the people willing to pay for the game for a whole month.  You're going to have Y people who are interested in playing, but either don't have or don't want to spend the cash.  You have Z people who might throw a little cash your way if they could play.  W people are free-loaders.

X + Y + Z (+ W) = Money

X = guaranteed income [assuming stable]
Y = lost opportunity
Z = lost opportunity
W = free-loaders

Now your X group is going to be mostly stable.  You can count on them to pay month in and month out.  Sure there's turn-over, and you'll have a decline between expansions and patches, but these are the guys all the traditional "SUB OR DIE" people are chasing.  A new game comes out?  You lost them for a few months.  Will they come back?  Who knows, but you've got that sub-barrier up now.  Now if you drop required subs for optional subs some of these guys might slip into the Y or Z group.  This is horrifying... It also ignores that some of the guys and gals in this group will throw buckets and buckets of money if you let them and your model takes that into account.

Y is a scary group to business types.  They're not die-hards.  They're flighty.  Will they give us money this month or not?  Well, actually, yes.  Which of them is giving you money might change, but if you're putting out things in your item shop you're going to get a steady revenue stream.  And surprise!  If you don't threaten them with NO ACCESS because they didn't throw the required number of dollars at you.  But 50% is a lot more than zero, and a lot of people who are scared of commitment don't actually have a problem paying a sub, they just don't want to lose access if they stop.

Z guys may not spend all that much.  But they're not really costing you anything, and if they do spend money it's money you didn't have.  Plus if they are far more likely to migrate into the X and Y groups if actively playing your game than if you had told them you're not interested in them by cutting off their sub.

W group!  Well, maybe they're free-loaders, but they bring friends along and keep the game alive in their little community.  Heck, they might even spend money once in a while because they're not spending $180 a year on a sub, so what's a one-time $25 purchase?

Our two models boil down to:

(X)  vs.  (X + Y + Z + W)

For SWTOR we're looking at (200k) vs. (500k + 1500k) to use Draegan's numbers, because going f2p actually boosted subscription rates since people aren't terrified of having their access cut off and it drew in people that otherwise wouldn't have tried the game.

So in summary, if Y, Z, and/or W are not negligible in size to X, and there is no reason to believe they are, you're a moron who hates money to exclude these people from playing your game.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Pennilenko on February 18, 2015, 06:54:44 PM
...and Lantyssa performs fatality...


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: sam, an eggplant on February 18, 2015, 07:04:13 PM
You just typed out a page describing market segmentation. Pretty clear from my posts I understand what that is, since I brought it up. Were you replying to someone else who showed they didn't understand market segmentation?

I explained what I would do, if I had a multi hundred million dollar budget and platinum IP-- exactly what ESO did. Well, I would spend dev resources engineering the business model pivot from day 1, preparing for the worst, and switch over after 6 months or so, once it became clear my game wasn't the next WoW. But pretty close.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Lantyssa on February 18, 2015, 07:34:45 PM
A little bit of everyone.  I was just expanding on what I was trying to say earlier and your post helped me launch into it.

Like I said, crazy time.  Because I am losing it with my current work project.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: tmp on February 18, 2015, 08:30:55 PM
Our two models boil down to:

(X)  vs.  (X + Y + Z + W)
Might be worth considering that part of the X group can't stand the "dirty console casual kid peasants" they consider the Y, Z and W to be, and so will refuse to grace with their presence and money establishments which let these groups in. It's pretty likely a small subset, but how it shapes the 'lost opportunity' for both cases, I'm not really sure. It makes the math less clear-cut, in any case.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Hutch on February 19, 2015, 11:22:02 AM
Today, two archetypes. The elven frost mage, and the hamster? Badger? Woodchuck? Whatever it is. (http://community.crowfall.com/index.php?/topic/2356-02192015-physics-double-archetype-drop/)

Also, a FAQ describing their physics model. (http://crowfall.com/#/faq/54e5fd5093fc8d634e4d6908)

Quote
15. Does that mean that I can be hit by friendly fire?

Wherever possible, yes -- but we have to make sure that this is balanced. Some rules sets (like the infected worlds, which are Faction based) divide players automatically into teams. We have to make sure that players can't join teams specifically to take advantage of friendly fire to grief their own "teammates."

Our plan is to try and apply debuffs to players for doing damage to or killing their teammates (the gods curse you for your incompetence). If this proves not to be a good enough deterrent, however, we may have to turn friendly fire off for particular Campaign worlds.
Translation: yes, we'll be turning off friendly fire in certain rulesets.  :why_so_serious:


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Draegan on February 19, 2015, 12:42:56 PM
Quote
fenrisddevil, on 19 Feb 2015 - 10:32 AM, said:
So we were right, FF is active only on the FFA server. While some debuffs might substitute (or not) friendly fire on carebears shards.

Quote
I'm not entirely sure how you can read an FAQ that mentions the possibility of turning off friendly fire on 1 or 2 of the announced rulesets, and to you that translates to "only FFA has friendly fire".
 
Make no mistake, we'll be working and testing this area heavily and we'll find what works best for each campaign ruleset. We might find a way to execute it well on all of them, we may not.
 
It's best not to jump to hyperbolic conclusion's when we're being very forward and open with our thinking with you on this.

http://community.crowfall.com/index.php?/topic/2357-friendly-fire-explained/?p=60671


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Hutch on February 19, 2015, 12:57:16 PM
I came to the conclusion (that they will turn off friendly fire) by looking into my crystal ball and seeing that the PK crowd will go to any lengths to grief others, even if it means getting a debuff or other punishment as a "deterrent".

Just kidding, I don't have a crystal ball.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: HaemishM on February 19, 2015, 01:07:41 PM
The ball in this case is going to be the testicles of the PVP crowd you'll get when they drop a fruit basket on your corpse.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Threash on February 19, 2015, 01:30:21 PM
Friendly fire would work fine in normal servers like it did in Shadowbane.  It doesn't matter if you can kill your own "side" as long as sides are not predetermined.  I have fond memories of raining AOE death on enemy zergs with my channeler and taking out our entire vanguard in the process, as long as we were the ones standing in the end no one much cared.  If you are going to force sides then no thank you.  Also holy shit i'm going to be a god damn gerbil of doom.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Falconeer on February 19, 2015, 01:37:08 PM
Yeah, like Threash said. Friendly Fire was ON for lots of spells in Shadowbane and it kind of worked. There was also self-harming stuff, I fondly remember that class that existed only to run into enemy lines and suicide by self-exploding into some nuclear blast. Glorious.

But physics?  :why_so_serious: :why_so_serious: :why_so_serious: :why_so_serious:

This alone makes me want to NOT give them any money. All of a sudden it started to sound like Star Citizen-level of bullshit promise.

Quote
Has this technology been used before?
Yes. The Voxel Farm technology library has been used by Daybreak Game Company on their titles Landmark and up-coming MMO, EverQuest Next.

In a PVP game?
Also, performance-hog and lag issues all over. Bah.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Threash on February 19, 2015, 01:49:54 PM
Yeah, like Threash said. Friendly Fire was ON for lots of spells in Shadowbane and it kind of worked. There was also self-harming stuff, I fondly remember that class that existed only to run into enemy lines and suicide by self-exploding into some nuclear blast. Glorious.


The Sentinel, glorious.  A pack of centaur sentinels suicide bombing a zerg was a joy to behold.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Draegan on February 19, 2015, 02:36:16 PM
I'm fully skeptical that they can actually make the game work in any sort of reasonable fashion. That's some really intense server/client resource hog stuff. Collision and Physics. Have fun with that.

But I really hope they can!


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Paelos on February 19, 2015, 03:10:17 PM
Friendly fire is always dumb in my mind. It's a griefers paradise.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Threash on February 19, 2015, 03:17:36 PM
It is only a griefers paradise if you have no control over who is a "friendly".  If you do it is just another tactical consideration.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Draegan on February 19, 2015, 03:17:52 PM
Plenty of games without it. I'd like to see  one try. Griefers? Fine with me. I prefer to play on FFA servers anyway.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Nija on February 19, 2015, 06:23:55 PM
Griefers? Kill them. Play on a FFA server.

AC/AC2,UO, M59, and others I'm missing had/have friendly fire. It's not a big deal, so long as you don't have some kind of programatic check to see if you can do damage to a person based on him being on your 'side' or in your group or some other nonsense.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Typhon on February 19, 2015, 06:46:52 PM
Have the friendly fire damage someone does apply a long lasting, stacking debuff to friendly fire.  If it was a legitimately an accident or unavoidable use of AE, your own team mates probably won't frag you.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Threash on February 19, 2015, 07:04:19 PM
It is not something you need to penalize at all as long as you have complete control over who is a friendly.  It was a feature in shadowbane that you simply could not rain down AoE death on the enemy with zero drawbacks.  If you accidentally hit your own side you are already being penalized by hurting your side during a battle, nothing else is needed.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: drogg on February 24, 2015, 12:26:33 AM
kickstarter launching tomorrow at 8 am CST: http://community.crowfall.com/index.php?/topic/2548-022315-today-and-tomorrow/


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: schild on February 24, 2015, 04:30:58 AM
I'm surprised these dreamers didn't opt for the Chris Roberts style of Kickstarter so they never had to actually produce a game.

Doin it wrong from day 1.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: tmp on February 24, 2015, 07:45:29 AM
Well, nothing says they have to actually produce the game  :why_so_serious:  SC had the "pre-renderedalpha footage" too.

Of course the idea of maybe selling stuff like a voucher for new game class that currently exists as concept drawing on a napkin, for a thousand bucks... is probably slightly less feasible.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Paelos on February 24, 2015, 08:08:55 AM
Depends on how they set it up. And how much money they ask for. I'm really hoping they don't post some stupid amount like $500,000. That will essentially let me know they are bullshitting everyone to try and pull real money into the deal.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Malakili on February 24, 2015, 08:23:44 AM
Well, it's up.

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/crowfall/crowfall-throne-war-pc-mmo

They are asking for $800,000.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Falconeer on February 24, 2015, 09:21:29 AM
Interesting stuff on the Winning Conditions of the Campaigns (in the given example, a hardcoded three-factions campaign).

Quote
5. Can you describe the Victory Condition rules for a given Campaign?

Sure. Let’s assume that we join a Campaign on the “Infected” Worlds. That means this is a Faction-based Campaign; i.e. the players are broken up into three teams: Order, Balance and Chaos.

Each Campaign has a duration, let’s say its 3 months.

The goal of the ORDER faction is to amass the most Victory Points before the World expires.

The goal of the CHAOS faction is the same.

BALANCE doesn’t gain victory points in this system, however. The goal of the BALANCE faction is to try and end the Campaign with ORDER and CHAOS having roughly the same number of Victory Points; i.e. no clear winner between the other two.

In other words:



Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Paelos on February 24, 2015, 09:43:05 AM
So given what we know they are angling for about $4M minimum to make this happen. I'm pretty sure they can't make the game for that. It's probably why they said CORE over and over.

My guess was closer to $6-8M. Maybe I'm off, I don't know. It all depends on how lean and mean they are running with overhead, and how many appeals to cash they are willing to make. I understand setting the bar lower so they can collect, but I think in reality the KS needs to pull in twice what they are asking for to get good momentum.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Hawkbit on February 24, 2015, 09:57:28 AM
Was this Play2Crush or Pay2Alpha?

I like the aesthetics and the world seems kinda neat. The idea of seasons in a persistent game is something I've wished for a long time. I just can't see throwing cash at something that won't come to fruition for nearly two years. This is a weird KS; far too early to be a simple marketing KS yet not nearly enough money to make the game.

I want to like it, though. Looks cool on paper.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: tazelbain on February 24, 2015, 10:08:10 AM
To me they have to raise 5x that amount just to have a glymer of hope. What 2.7m already and no tech demo? Hex at least showed us a basic semi-functional game.

I see nothing in rewards that makes feel like I can get a good deal for taking a big risk.

Still no carebear/newbie friendly formats. This is huge. No brainier. There needs to be a kiddie pool to help players make the transition from WoW.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Paelos on February 24, 2015, 10:28:01 AM
Still no carebear/newbie friendly formats. This is huge. No brainier. There needs to be a kiddie pool to help players make the transition from WoW.

I think eternal kingdoms will provide this. There will be mobs and whatnot for learning. Likely leveling too, probably at a reduced rate. The kingdoms will set their own rules.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Merusk on February 24, 2015, 10:54:27 AM
Those pay-to-name tiers looked interesting. They're practically sold-out already. Personal barometer: I was tempted and every game kickstarter I've taken a risk on has been a failure or dragged-on for an eternity. Only my quest to wean myself off of MMOs and computer games entirely kept me from opening my wallet. So my fail-o-meter is high. 


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Threash on February 24, 2015, 11:07:00 AM
I pledged, i want this game.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Rendakor on February 24, 2015, 11:09:13 AM
I pledged too; I assume I'll be able to resell the code during development if I change my mind.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Malakili on February 24, 2015, 11:25:24 AM
Tempting, but my only KS back to date has been Hex and even though I am not too disappointed with it, I don't think I would do it again if given the option.  So, I'll wait and see with this one.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Paelos on February 24, 2015, 11:32:36 AM
It's funny we don't hear about HEX much anymore after all the bullshit shouting, but that's a side note.

This game looks like something different. However, the money needed to execute strikes me as woefully short. I'm leery of that.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Malakili on February 24, 2015, 11:42:14 AM
Well, there is another forum for Hex..

But anyway, I agree, it seems like the project they WANT to do will cost a good deal more than they have, or will have.  But there are probably a dozen MMOs over the years that have talked a similar game and failed or faded into obscurity.  I want to believe, as they say, but I can't help but assume it's going to go the way of all the others in the end.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Rendakor on February 24, 2015, 11:49:21 AM
It's funny we don't hear about HEX much anymore after all the bullshit shouting, but that's a side note.

This game looks like something different. However, the money needed to execute strikes me as woefully short. I'm leery of that.
The Hex subforum here is still pretty active; we even have an f13 league.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Merusk on February 24, 2015, 12:26:34 PM
Special-invite only so as the 1337 decks aren't pilfered.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: tazelbain on February 24, 2015, 12:37:01 PM
Which is weird cuz there aien't no leetness in that forum. Too bad, I wish we had a team to go after Hextechs Open and Five Cups.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: WayAbvPar on February 24, 2015, 01:00:21 PM
I will probably throw them $30. I will end up buying the game anyway, so why not save some dough?


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Rendakor on February 24, 2015, 01:16:37 PM
Wonder if I'll be able to register for their forums now that I'm a KS backer.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: WayAbvPar on February 24, 2015, 01:26:10 PM
If it does, make sure to put the Hex CM's quote in your sig  :awesome_for_real:


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Threash on February 24, 2015, 01:32:46 PM
I will probably throw them $30. I will end up buying the game anyway, so why not save some dough?

Over half of those are gone already, so better hurry.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Triforcer on February 24, 2015, 01:52:10 PM
Some nitpicks about the kickstarter and associated info:

- I wish the higher but still non-insane contribution levels had more in-game foozles that aren't part of the instanced housing.  I'm sure I am not the only one who doesn't care about any of the Eternal Kingdom stuff.  I know this is hard to do in a game where equipment decays and breaks (i.e., they can't offer an unbreakable sword that goes with you everywhere even if the stats are the same as in-game obtainable swords), but more tiers should have had things like the $60 arcane recipe set (and there should be unique in-game cosmetic effects, etc.).  I will probably go $250 because that kicks in a collector's edition (and I want to see games like this made), but there is no incentive to go higher if you don't care about the Eternal Kingdoms. 

- As said above, the target for this is weird- that obviously isn't nearly enough to complete the game.  And I wish there was some indication of stretch goals (get to $1,000,000 and get two new archetypes, etc.).

- The risk/reward seems skewed in the rules they posted, at least for the dregs.  If you want to get people to try FFA pvp, giving the losers rewards (rather big rewards) seems like the best option.  Conversely, the "safer" pvp worlds should have very low winner percentages (and very little loser percentages).  That being said, this is the part they said could change the most based on actual data, so not a big worry.  


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: schild on February 24, 2015, 02:14:16 PM
wow they want to charge $50 MSRP for the game also?

These fucking backwards assholes.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: schild on February 24, 2015, 02:15:30 PM
Anyway, this game is not getting made for their goal, so they're just using Kickstarter as a cash infusion for utter bullshit. It's pretty reprehensible. I know Kickstarter's interest is in the % so they're not gonna turn down something like this, but I really wish they had people on staff that knew a game like this could not get made for an amount like that.

Edit:
Quote
Kickstarter represents the absolute best way to start a new project – because it allows (and relies on) the fans to get involved from the beginning!

lol no


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: WayAbvPar on February 24, 2015, 02:16:01 PM
I will probably throw them $30. I will end up buying the game anyway, so why not save some dough?

Over half of those are gone already, so better hurry.

I was reminded that I am not charged until the KS is fully funded, so I snatched one up.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Draegan on February 24, 2015, 03:34:08 PM
1) this game is using the gw2 payment model.
2) this game already has 2.5M vc funds already.



Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: HaemishM on February 24, 2015, 03:44:34 PM
$800k is way, way too low, IMO, even with the VC cash they've already made. I also expected that art style to look better when animated, but I'm sad to say it looks worse.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Paelos on February 24, 2015, 04:05:07 PM
My guess is they are betting on getting double that to fully fund the core. But they set the number at half to get paid.

Either way what they want is 25,000+ people to show up and donate something, even if it's $5. That's so they can show further investors how many potential day one sales they have.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: tazelbain on February 24, 2015, 05:10:49 PM
They at least admit the KS is primarily for marketing.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Paelos on February 24, 2015, 06:02:31 PM
They at least admit the KS is primarily for marketing.

Where do they admit that?


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: WayAbvPar on February 24, 2015, 06:27:48 PM
They are halfway to their stated goal in less than half a day. Hopefully they get enough to actually deliver something worth playing.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Hutch on February 24, 2015, 07:10:16 PM
They at least admit the KS is primarily for marketing.

Where do they admit that?

They didn't "admit it" so much as spell it out. (http://community.crowfall.com/index.php?/topic/1717-020415-update-from-the-founders/)

Quote
To get this game brought to market, we intend to use every method at our disposal to fund the game through completion.

Specifically:

    We will likely sell more equity (ownership in our company) in the future,
    We will license some of the overseas rights for Crowfall.  We're going to try and keep control of the English-speaking territories.
    And, yes, we will do a crowdfunding campaign.  We aren't asking you to fund the entire game, but your participation is a key piece of the funding puzzle.

A successful crowdfunding campaign does more than just provide funding; it also demonstrates "market viability."   It shows that Crowfall has a committed audience, and that we're making a game that people want to play.  Our story is stronger, and that dramatically improves our ability to sell both equity and license overseas rights.  It's a real force multiplier in giving us the resources we need to build a world-class game.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Paelos on February 24, 2015, 10:40:41 PM
Quote
Our goal for this Kickstarter is to fund the core module of Crowfall. 

How many games can you play with a standard deck of cards?  Poker, Blackjack, Bridge – the variety is endless. Think of the core module like our baseline deck of cards. This is the foundation of the game, on which all the variant rules sets can be built.

Much of the core module work has already been done; we are looking to the community to help us finish it. Specifically, we will use these funds to build:

They list a whole bunch of features after that.

I saw the earlier part on the site, then I see this on KS. I guess maybe it's the same thing? But it doesn't sound like the same thing. Basically on KS it sounds like they want to build the core of the game and launch it. They even say they want to come to the people first and will go to a publisher if they have to.

It's slick lawyer-talk but I see the point.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: schild on February 24, 2015, 11:36:36 PM
Quote
Our goal for this Kickstarter is to fund the core module of Crowfall. 

How many games can you play with a standard deck of cards?  Poker, Blackjack, Bridge – the variety is endless. Think of the core module like our baseline deck of cards. This is the foundation of the game, on which all the variant rules sets can be built.
This is beyond the pale.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Teleku on February 25, 2015, 03:38:40 AM
It's funny we don't hear about HEX much anymore after all the bullshit shouting, but that's a side note.
As others have said, we do all the talking in the Hex forum.  I threw $500 at it, and have gotten my moneys worth already.  I've played it more than any other game ever, other than the 2-3 years straight I played WoW.  Development has been slow and painful, but they already have a great product out.  Easily worth the money for me, and its something I'll keep on playing for years (unless the studio shuts downs  :awesome_for_real:).

So far all of my kickstarters have worked out great.  Wasteland 2 was kind of a let down, but still enjoyable.  Thats my worst outcome so far (though plenty of them are still in development, so we'll see).  I went ahead pledged.  Kickstarter cannot possibly bring in all the funds needed to make an MMO, but sounds like they are doing this to help them secure more funding, so I'm happy to show support.  Its a game I'd like to see made, so I'll make a donation to the cause.

wow they want to charge $50 MSRP for the game also?

These fucking backwards assholes.
Whats wrong with that?  Pay for the box plus optional sub seems like the best way to do an MMO.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Gimfain on February 25, 2015, 05:57:08 AM
Its one of the better kickstarters out there and showed more than pretty much every mmorpg kickstarter I have seen. However, asking for $600k and putting an estimated release date in december 2016 is total BS. Camelot unchained told exactly how much money would be needed to complete the game and said how he would get it, and I think Crowfall should do something similar. Not fond of using kickstarter funds as a leverage for future investors.

Biggest problem is still the game, I know about their ideas but I have no idea how its going to play out and how close they will be to reach their vision. Also, no healer archetypes hurt, its probably why I will play camelot unchained instead of crowfall.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: taolurker on February 25, 2015, 10:57:36 AM
Could go in any of three threads, but probably best over here.

(http://i.imgur.com/bauFNUn.jpg)


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Merusk on February 25, 2015, 11:18:36 AM
Wait.. they fired him but didn't remove his twitter from the stream?

Classic SOE.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Lantyssa on February 25, 2015, 12:12:35 PM
Linking personal accounts to a public-facing company page to begin with...


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: shiznitz on February 25, 2015, 12:42:54 PM
Wait.. they fired him but didn't remove his twitter from the stream?

Classic SOE.

Fucking clown shoes as usual.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Threash on February 25, 2015, 12:50:06 PM
Looks like kickstarter sb.xed.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Trippy on February 25, 2015, 03:08:34 PM
Wait.. they fired him but didn't remove his twitter from the stream?

Classic SOE.
Fucking clown shoes as usual.
They probably fired their social media person too so there's nobody left that knows how to fix that.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Tannhauser on February 25, 2015, 04:40:01 PM
A quick derail if you don't mind, but whatever became of McQuaid and his KS project?


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Hutch on February 25, 2015, 04:44:28 PM
The tldr version is: The Pantheon KS failed to fund.

The F13 forum thread is here. (http://forums.f13.net/index.php?topic=23777.msg1267492#msg1267492)


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Gimfain on February 25, 2015, 06:14:29 PM
A quick derail if you don't mind, but whatever became of McQuaid and his KS project?
They failed KS, did some funding on their page which ran out, but they still work on it. They use unity 5 engine for the game and here's link to latest video (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ywzMyvtuC6Y)


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Threash on February 25, 2015, 07:10:28 PM
I'm surprised at the archetypes they went with.  There is no human wizard type, confessors are fire priests really.  No elves besides the weird looking frostweavers and winged gender locked assassins, not having the bladeweaver (or it's human blademaster equivalent) seems like a weird omission. Only one stealth type class, and no scouts, which were the very best solution to MMO stealth any game has come up with.  Champions/Knights/Templars/legionaires seem entirely redundant, could've just made a "warrior" that covered all of those.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Ginaz on February 25, 2015, 08:39:55 PM
Wait.. they fired him but didn't remove his twitter from the stream?

Classic SOE.

It's now classic Windbreak...Daybreak...whatever.  Same old same old regardless of what call themselves these days.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: murdoc on February 26, 2015, 10:14:27 AM
I am interested in this game - but my 'don't kickstart games' rule is in full effect.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Hutch on February 26, 2015, 11:26:18 AM
I'm just going to set this down here.

(http://www.kicktraq.com/projects/crowfall/crowfall-throne-war-pc-mmo/minichart.png) (http://www.kicktraq.com/projects/crowfall/crowfall-throne-war-pc-mmo/)


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: tazelbain on February 26, 2015, 11:36:39 AM
Early amber looks like the best "deal". Too bad I don't have blind faith to do this.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Falconeer on February 26, 2015, 11:47:59 AM
Honestly, the "best deal" seems to be the 30$ one. Maybe 40$. Everything else, raises the traditional question that we used a million times for the king of non-existent games: "Why?".


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Threash on February 26, 2015, 11:56:48 AM
The extra character slots and free sub time .


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Falconeer on February 26, 2015, 12:05:15 PM
Still for a game that doesn't exist. It's like saying "I paid 125$ for the extra spaceship, the mining barge, the insurance and the Chris Roberts in-game poster".

Can we have a game first?


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Rasix on February 26, 2015, 12:12:22 PM
Can we have a game first?

(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/82533/bender-laugh.gif)

I mean fuck.. this is a Kickstarter for a MMO.  Might as well back a Molyneux-Schafer-Hall zombie Fable space simulator.   I hope one of the tiers is some tubing and a box of mason jars to capture your tears.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Threash on February 26, 2015, 12:16:11 PM
Still for a game that doesn't exist. It's like saying "I paid 125$ for the extra spaceship, the mining barge, the insurance and the Chris Roberts in-game poster".

Can we have a game first?

You can say the exact same thing for the first 30 bucks, your limit is only based on your disposable income.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Falconeer on February 26, 2015, 12:22:50 PM
My limit is the minimum to get the game in case it gets released but my disposable income is much higher than 30 dollars. Yet I feel there's a fine line between "ok, I hope more games like these will be made so let's assume I'll pre-order the box regardless" and "oh not only it will be made but it will be SO GOOD that I already know I want extra character slots, months of subscriptions and some more crap!".

The point is, not only we don't know if it'll be made, we don't even know if it'll be fun to play. Disposable income doesn't mean you hate money. Spending more than a box price on a game *in this stage* justifies all the Star Citizens idiots (and forbids you from making fun of them ever again).


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Merusk on February 26, 2015, 12:27:48 PM
Honestly, the "best deal" seems to be the 30$ one. Maybe 40$. Everything else, raises the traditional question that we used a million times for the king of non-existent games: "Why?".

I expect they'll release something, so I have no fears of a Roberts-level "pump the idiots" scheme.  I justs don't think it'll be successful.

As I said before, some of the $150 and up tiers were tugging at my vanity.  

Knowing I could immortalize myself or one of my Avatars in their procedural engine is a strong pull for me. If I suspected this game were going to be successful at all I'd probably have jumped on at least the $250 bandwagon. I'm doing jack with that cash besides saving for a vacation at the moment. I can take a slightly shorter one instead and have a day at home for that ego stroking.

On the other hand I refuse to give-up creative license for those characters so fuck that.  :awesome_for_real:


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Paelos on February 26, 2015, 12:34:16 PM
The only thing I don't believe these guys can release is a game with the destructible environments they are trying to purport. That shit never seems to work. It usually just ends up being a few points in each area you can knock down.

I'm middling in my belief that they can make procedural worlds work. It's a big step forward if they can make that fun and implemented.

The rest? It's boiler-plate MMO fare and frankly not that hard. Maybe the crafting system is a big more robust, but nothing like we haven't seen before with other games.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: kaid on February 26, 2015, 12:39:20 PM
As for destructible world they are using the voxel farm engine that land mark is using so if they actually keep it fully destructible is what the world will be not just a few parts of walls like the old shadowbane.

How they balance siege warfare when people can potentially burrow under your walls is going to be interesting.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Merusk on February 26, 2015, 12:40:12 PM
Voxels are the game-changer for destrutability, Paelos. I don't know enough/ haven't seen them utilized in enough games to know how they'd work with a physics engine. However, think Minecraft with better resolution and they can do a lot.  The stuff out of EQ: Landmark was incredible and used similar voxel tech.

How they balance siege warfare when people can potentially burrow under your walls is going to be interesting.

I'm willing to bet that it won't have undermining, but who knows. Different durability for each material might be enough to make undermining riskier than breaching the walls.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Malakili on February 26, 2015, 12:43:34 PM
Medieval Engineers uses a similar system. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CpS5XGjb3jg


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Paelos on February 26, 2015, 12:52:22 PM
I'd be fine with undermining if there was a heavy time component to it, much like a real world siege.

It should be obvious what they are trying, and not something that can be accomplished in a few minutes.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Threash on February 26, 2015, 02:39:31 PM
First few stretch goals. (http://community.crowfall.com/index.php?/topic/3124-022615-announcing-stretch-goals/)


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Nija on February 26, 2015, 02:44:06 PM
This is the next cult for people to worship after the Chris Roberts thing. Hell, we may seem some dual-classing cultists!


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Paelos on February 26, 2015, 02:46:11 PM
Sounds like Eric is getting fired.

Also, this won't even come close to CR status. This is about showing other investors the game has pull, not funding it all.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Nija on February 26, 2015, 02:48:42 PM
I just get that feeling from reading some of the crazy what if threads going around right now talking about pie in the sky features. It's really convenient that everything can be answered by saying, "we'll make a new campaign for that!"


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Paelos on February 26, 2015, 02:56:45 PM
I don't get the impression from these guys. I think they have a very defined game they want to produce, and the additional funds would only be related to polish.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Triforcer on February 26, 2015, 03:46:23 PM
More early bird amber slots opened up, just did that ($215)- my first ever kickstarter.  As I mentioned earlier, I wish this had given me an excuse to go to the $500 tier, but nothing there jumps out at me.  I find it difficult to believe this will amount to no game at all (although I'm sure December 2016 will slip).


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Threash on February 26, 2015, 03:52:57 PM
More early bird amber slots opened up, just did that ($215)- my first ever kickstarter.  As I mentioned earlier, I wish this had given me an excuse to go to the $500 tier, but nothing there jumps out at me.  I find it difficult to believe this will amount to no game at all (although I'm sure December 2016 will slip).

What don't you want access to the shittiest alpha and to name a place after yourself? Think about it, there might be an actual Bat Country somewhere! (I kicked in 215 also).


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: schild on February 27, 2015, 01:52:59 AM
More early bird amber slots opened up, just did that ($215)- my first ever kickstarter.  As I mentioned earlier, I wish this had given me an excuse to go to the $500 tier, but nothing there jumps out at me.  I find it difficult to believe this will amount to no game at all (although I'm sure December 2016 will slip).
You're a moron.

And you, Threash.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: schild on February 27, 2015, 01:54:57 AM
Part of me wants to try and be nice about it. But sinking money into old school MMOG devs strikes me as just maybe the only thing dumber than throwing money at Chris Roberts.

It's an entire section of the industry where even their successes are still amazing failures.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Falconeer on February 27, 2015, 03:45:42 AM
Aaaaand it's funded. With 27 days to go.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Triforcer on February 27, 2015, 04:29:38 AM
More early bird amber slots opened up, just did that ($215)- my first ever kickstarter.  As I mentioned earlier, I wish this had given me an excuse to go to the $500 tier, but nothing there jumps out at me.  I find it difficult to believe this will amount to no game at all (although I'm sure December 2016 will slip).
You're a moron.

And you, Threash.

Don't we have an entire thread in General Discussion about how people are funding erotic elf cat-girl figurines and whatever?  By definition, kickstarting anything is fairly moronic. 


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: schild on February 27, 2015, 06:06:43 AM
I bet the people funding erotic elf cat-girl figurines will get more enjoyment from their Kickstarter pledge than those funding Also-Ran, the MMOG.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: tmp on February 27, 2015, 06:31:05 AM
erotic elf cat-girl figurines
wait, what? :pedobear:


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Paelos on February 27, 2015, 07:55:46 AM
I bet the people funding erotic elf cat-girl figurines will get more enjoyment from their Kickstarter pledge than those funding Also-Ran, the MMOG.

OK so you're betting failure. What are the terms? That it never releases? That closes a year after release? I enjoy MMO bets.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: KallDrexx on February 27, 2015, 08:12:31 AM
It doesn't have anything to do with betting failure either.  Why pay $215 right now for a game not any close to release, that will release for $60 with no sub(!) and a non-game breaking cash shop.....   I just don't fucking understand.

I'd rather spend $400 in a year or so when I have the game in hand than spend $215 now and sit on my ass and wait for a long ass time, hoping it's good.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Paelos on February 27, 2015, 08:38:42 AM
I don't disagree. I don't like Kickstarters in general for that exact reason.

I still think people saw the ridiculous "play to crush" nonsense at the beginning of the project, made up their minds, and are going to ignore all the other stuff here that seems fairly progressive in the MMO space.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Threash on February 27, 2015, 10:06:01 AM
I still think people saw the ridiculous "play to crush" nonsense at the beginning of the project

The funny thing is the original play to crush pitch for shadowbane was making fun of crafters, which this game heavily features.  "We don't play to bake bread" and all.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Teleku on February 27, 2015, 10:20:57 AM
It doesn't have anything to do with betting failure either.  Why pay $215 right now for a game not any close to release, that will release for $60 with no sub(!) and a non-game breaking cash shop.....   I just don't fucking understand.

I'd rather spend $400 in a year or so when I have the game in hand than spend $215 now and sit on my ass and wait for a long ass time, hoping it's good.
It’s to help the game get created.  That’s how I treat almost all my Kickstarter pledges.  I'm throwing money at people who gave me enjoyment in the past, so they have a chance of making something else I might like.  It’s them cashing in on their good standing, and I have no problem with that.  If that good game doesn't come to pass, oh well, they gave me a lot of enjoyment before, so now we're even.  Except physical products like Board Games (which will almost certainly get made as all they need is money to get shit they already designed printed), I treat all my Kickstarter’s like donations rather than pre-orders.

I want to at least see somebody attempt to the make the game they are describing, so I'm happy to donate to make that attempt happen.

Though I didn't throw $215 at them, heh.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Threash on February 27, 2015, 11:26:47 AM
They have 820k in pledges and 8200 backers, so at least we are not the only crazy ones.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: shiznitz on February 27, 2015, 11:31:45 AM
But they need 10x that 8200 as customers to be financially viable.  I am not commenting on whether that is likely or unlikely.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: pxib on February 27, 2015, 11:32:05 AM
I still think people saw the ridiculous "play to crush" nonsense at the beginning of the project, made up their minds, and are going to ignore all the other stuff here that seems fairly progressive in the MMO space.
The "play to crush" nonsense, poorly implemented or just poorly populated, can easily squeeze the joy out of any progressive ideas they come up with. It has in the past, and it shall again. Accessible, comprehensible power curves are what keep most players playing. What do I need to do in order to take the next step, and is it reliable enough that I won't get stuck?

In DIKU Skinner boxes, the answer is Yes all the way to the endgame. In player-dominated PvP environments, the answer is frequently No... or Not in Your Guild of Friends, or Not Unless it's 2am, or Not During the Weekend, or Not With Your Skills.

Worse yet, progressive ideas are not necessarily good ideas. The concept may be appealing, but implementation (or even just the reality of a sensible execution) may turn out to be considerably less fun than they seemed. Guarding caravans as they ship supplies through enemy territory? Neat! Guarding caravans for 30 minutes across empty terrain only to be ambushed by the zerg and defeated by the lag within four frame-per-second sight of our goal? Ugh. Guarding caravans for 30 minutes across empty terrain and never being ambushed? What am I doing with my life?

Yes, people do this sort of thing all the time in EVE and some of them may secretly have always wanted a generic high fantasy medieval version of the same, but I rather suspect it's the other way around: More people play EVE because it's ship v. ship combat in space than because it's a PvP free-for-all. More people play World War II Online and World of Tanks because they're wargaming grognards than because of the particulars of their innovations and implementation.

Can Crowfall's version of  Play to Crush work? Maybe, but I wouldn't bet on it. Not even $5.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Malakili on February 27, 2015, 12:27:49 PM
Quote
Guarding caravans as they ship supplies through enemy territory? Neat! Guarding caravans for 30 minutes across empty terrain only to be ambushed by the zerg and defeated by the lag within four frame-per-second sight of our goal? Ugh. Guarding caravans for 30 minutes across empty terrain and never being ambushed? What am I doing with my life?

This sums up the main hurdle this sort of game needs to overcome rather succinctly. 


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Paelos on February 27, 2015, 12:44:42 PM
Poor implementation can ruin anything. That's a given. It practically goes without saying, but I guess we're saying it again.

I don't see anything they are promising that strikes me as tough to implement other than the procedural part. In normal pvp games you acquire gear and that lasts you forever as you assrape people until the next set of gear. In this game, you're being dropped naked into a new land every month or so. I can see that being much more fun since the game keeps resetting you to a degree back to your regular space.

Guarding caravans sounds like a time/reward thing. If there's little risk of attack, fewer people will do it. If there's more, more people will do it. The risk of an attack usually determines what people do in these games, and where those attacks will occur.

Also I think there's plenty of people who don't play EVE specifically because it's in space.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Malakili on February 27, 2015, 01:01:16 PM
I think the point is less about that and more about the unpredictability of your session.  Imagining the best case scenario for that kind of caravan thing is great and would be a fun time.  But the question is how many times when I do that thing is it actually fun compared to how many times it is boring and/or frustrating.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Paelos on February 27, 2015, 01:08:37 PM
I think the point is less about that and more about the unpredictability of your session.  Imagining the best case scenario for that kind of caravan thing is great and would be a fun time.  But the question is how many times when I do that thing is it actually fun compared to how many times it is boring and/or frustrating.

Same can be said of any game element. The devil is in the details of the experience.

PvP purests might tell you that it's not fun unless they are actively involved in killing whenever and whereever they log in. Objectives are meaningless to them and get in the way.

But I'm not sure that type of player is anywhere near the majority of MMO players, even in PVP games. Many people like the idea of taking objectives and advancing a team, regardless of how often they are attacked. If you make protecting caravans interesting, beyond just relying solely on other players to attack them to make it interesting?

You have to have stuff for both types of players. The objective players are solved pretty simply because you can create those. The pvp purists itching for constant fights are a little harder because in open world games you have to go find the fight. That was always an issue in DAOC. Eventually there just become agreed upon places to fight, but that's not ideal.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Merusk on February 27, 2015, 01:25:40 PM
Poor implementation can ruin anything. That's a given. It practically goes without saying, but I guess we're saying it again.

I don't see anything they are promising that strikes me as tough to implement other than the procedural part. In normal pvp games you acquire gear and that lasts you forever as you assrape people until the next set of gear. In this game, you're being dropped naked into a new land every month or so. I can see that being much more fun since the game keeps resetting you to a degree back to your regular space.

Guarding caravans sounds like a time/reward thing. If there's little risk of attack, fewer people will do it. If there's more, more people will do it. The risk of an attack usually determines what people do in these games, and where those attacks will occur.

Also I think there's plenty of people who don't play EVE specifically because it's in space.

The game isn't promising to be fully PVP and reset every month for all sectors from what I saw.  It looks like there's a PVE-as-retreat space that remains unchanged every cycle.  However, but you need to venture into the hostile spaces for resources because there are none in 'heaven.'  Not even the small amount that can be farmed at server restart in Eve.

That, I think, will limit things more than Eve and limit the player base even more.  Sure, you have a safe zone, but it's worthless for more than keeping things in.  As a PVE player I have no interest in it. You're forcing me into a game space I don't want to partake in.  

You're also limiting my ability to act as a lone agent. Yeah, Raph, you've harped for years on the "why play an MMO if you want to be alone" thing.  Because I want the interactive, living world. At most I'll accept passive interactions like Auction houses or SWG's vendors.  I don't want to interact with people, it's legit tiring to me.  I'm an introvert who works better alone than having to interact with and treat with other people. Even if I have to work three times as long I have the mental energy for that more than I do interacting with even one other person.

Actually PAY ATTENTION to some of those sociology books you've read. If you're choosing to ignore the "I" folks of Briggs-Meyers then you'll find you're already severly limiting your market.  Because it's mostly *I* folks who play video games. *E* folks go out and do shit IRL.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Paelos on February 27, 2015, 01:32:02 PM
I think you're arguing against forced grouping more than anything. I don't see how the lobby limits anything.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Merusk on February 27, 2015, 01:58:41 PM
Forced grouping is *part* of it. Forced PVP is the other part of it.

From the Kickstarter:

Quote
Eternal Kingdoms:
Risk: set by player monarch  Resources: Severely Limited

These player-owned and player-managed kingdoms are the only permanent (non-time limited) Worlds. They are complete, functional Worlds - but lack resource factories (such as quarries, mines and mills) and produce only common reagents. Players rule these Home Worlds as Monarchs and can grant land and titles to other players in exchange for oaths of fealty. Levy taxes, enforce trade restrictions, and set the PvP rules within your domain.

The Infected
Risk: Low   Resources: Limited   Reward: Victor Keeps 70%, loser keeps 30%
The proving grounds for Order, Balance, and Chaos. Players join one of three divine Factions and battle for control of the World. The goal for Order and Chaos is to capture as much territory as possible before the World is destroyed. The goal for Balance is to ensure there in no clear victor between Order and Chaos.

So, to gather resources beyond the very basic & common ones you have to PVP or interact with other folks. That turns me off the game straight away.  While I'm not adverse to PvP I don't want to do it most of the time. If  my good resources are limited that's one thing. If I'm cut off from them entirely it's another. Particularly not in an MMO as FPS offer a more even playing field (even though my skills suck) than "oh, you didn't invest enough time to get excellent gear. Sux2bu, you can NEVER win this fight. Not even if you get the drop on Mr. Leetpants."


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Paelos on February 27, 2015, 02:07:59 PM
OK well yeah the game's not for you. I think that's fine because PvP games rarely are for everyone.

You can't have the good resources in non-pvp areas in a pvp game. There has to be incentives for people to get out in the world and fight each other.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Threash on February 27, 2015, 02:15:46 PM
Yeah it s a pvp game, not a game with pvp but a game were the main gameplay is based around pvp.  If that is not what you are looking for then this is definitely not the game you want.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Falconeer on February 27, 2015, 02:18:48 PM
We have to remember that this game is not for Merusk, and basically it's not for 95% of the player base of any game, because they are not aiming for that audience. They don't want that people's money. We shouldn't forget that we have started the conversation about this and similar games from the assumption that these kind of games are super niche and there is a critical "mass" of about 40k concurrent players at any given time. At best. So yes, it's *NOT FOR* a lot of people. And if it pleased the PvE crowd or the solo crowd then it wouldn't be niche anymore and some of the people in this thread excited about it... would be not and would have not pledged. Hell, I dare to say that if it had some of the things Merusk is advocating for it would not be making the money it's making, because there's plenty of those other games already.

In short, leave the niche alone and leave the first "big niche" project in a long time alone. It'll have plenty of chances to hang itself with its own rope, but let's not start by transforming it into literally every other game.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: tazelbain on February 27, 2015, 02:24:22 PM
But what I don't get is why. They are ready baking multi-rule-sets into the Core, so why not make rule-sets that include 95%?


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Threash on February 27, 2015, 02:33:28 PM
Because that would be a whole different game that's already been done over and over again?


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Falconeer on February 27, 2015, 02:43:24 PM
Because that's Trammel, and it has already killed one game in the past. No need to repeat the experience. And even if it shouldn't, it ends up fragmenting the playerbase. Lots of people hanging out in the "safe" areas until they are confident or skilled enough (that's what they tell themselves), only to never make the move and starving the PvP areas.
There's plenty of Trammel games out there, as Threash said. Putting one in here would only attract the wrong kind of customers, which would be good at first but would create "cultural" and shattering disagreements soon enough and would be very bad in the mid and long run.

If they keep it to this untapped niche, they have a chance to make it happy and a profit. If they try to appease everyone, they would piss off everyone.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Draegan on February 27, 2015, 02:48:23 PM
In Todd's brain, this is how it will go down:

Quarry will "pop" a bunch of minerals.
Everyone will know about it.
You can race to get there, kill people mining it, get there first and defend people mining it.
Extract ore, put it in carts and then wheel it back to home base to use to make stuff.
PVP happens at any point. They are essentially making hotspots of action.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Ingmar on February 27, 2015, 02:49:15 PM
/checks to see if UO still exists

Looks like it does.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Draegan on February 27, 2015, 02:49:35 PM
Poor implementation can ruin anything. That's a given. It practically goes without saying, but I guess we're saying it again.

I don't see anything they are promising that strikes me as tough to implement other than the procedural part. In normal pvp games you acquire gear and that lasts you forever as you assrape people until the next set of gear. In this game, you're being dropped naked into a new land every month or so. I can see that being much more fun since the game keeps resetting you to a degree back to your regular space.

Guarding caravans sounds like a time/reward thing. If there's little risk of attack, fewer people will do it. If there's more, more people will do it. The risk of an attack usually determines what people do in these games, and where those attacks will occur.

Also I think there's plenty of people who don't play EVE specifically because it's in space.

The game isn't promising to be fully PVP and reset every month for all sectors from what I saw.  It looks like there's a PVE-as-retreat space that remains unchanged every cycle.  However, but you need to venture into the hostile spaces for resources because there are none in 'heaven.'  Not even the small amount that can be farmed at server restart in Eve.

That, I think, will limit things more than Eve and limit the player base even more.  Sure, you have a safe zone, but it's worthless for more than keeping things in.  As a PVE player I have no interest in it. You're forcing me into a game space I don't want to partake in.  

You're also limiting my ability to act as a lone agent. Yeah, Raph, you've harped for years on the "why play an MMO if you want to be alone" thing.  Because I want the interactive, living world. At most I'll accept passive interactions like Auction houses or SWG's vendors.  I don't want to interact with people, it's legit tiring to me.  I'm an introvert who works better alone than having to interact with and treat with other people. Even if I have to work three times as long I have the mental energy for that more than I do interacting with even one other person.

Actually PAY ATTENTION to some of those sociology books you've read. If you're choosing to ignore the "I" folks of Briggs-Meyers then you'll find you're already severly limiting your market.  Because it's mostly *I* folks who play video games. *E* folks go out and do shit IRL.

The "safe space" is where your guild house/player house is and you chill there in between campaigns. But the campaigns, with different rules sets, is the meat of the game.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Merusk on February 27, 2015, 02:53:46 PM
Yeah, broke off into my own reasons not to play somewhere in there. I know the game's not for me already.  :oh_i_see: Forced grouping and forced PVP aren't my thing.

I was trying to focus on the whole, "Look, game requires social interaction to even attempt to play." part of it. I think that's going to limit its success but who knows. I was totally wrong about Landmark faceplanting.  :why_so_serious:

Also, for a group of guys who hates guilds and other people so much that F13 guilds don't last longer than a few months, I'm surprised at the reception here.  (No, Eve doesn't count because those folks don't interact with the rest of the board anymore.)



Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: tazelbain on February 27, 2015, 02:57:08 PM
I get it, Specialshowfall.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Paelos on February 27, 2015, 03:50:48 PM
Yeah, broke off into my own reasons not to play somewhere in there. I know the game's not for me already.  :oh_i_see: Forced grouping and forced PVP aren't my thing.

I was trying to focus on the whole, "Look, game requires social interaction to even attempt to play." part of it. I think that's going to limit its success but who knows. I was totally wrong about Landmark faceplanting.  :why_so_serious:

Also, for a group of guys who hates guilds and other people so much that F13 guilds don't last longer than a few months, I'm surprised at the reception here.  (No, Eve doesn't count because those folks don't interact with the rest of the board anymore.)

I hate PVE guilds because it's all drama and bullshit trying to collect better drops and worrying about dps. Some of the best guilds I've been in for gaming were PvP guilds. Because they care about totally different types of things and teamwork. In my experience they will usually generally try to help other people and work together than go all fucking drama queen over rosters and drops and policy.

Now is that across the board? No there are assholes anywhere. But I've encountered a lot more carebear assholes than the other side.

EDIT: Oh and schedules. I hate gaming on a schedule and in pve it's impossible not to. In pvp you grab people and go.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Malakili on February 27, 2015, 03:54:59 PM
It depends on the game honestly.  In EVE the officers all had each others phone numbers in case people needed to get up in the middle of the night.  I mean,  I guess, technically, that doesn't count as a schedule, but  :why_so_serious:


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Samwise on February 27, 2015, 04:01:14 PM
I hope one of the tiers is some tubing and a box of mason jars to capture your tears.

 :why_so_serious:


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Paelos on February 27, 2015, 04:01:35 PM
Sure in pvp you have some of the wake up and it's gone factor. That's the downside.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Rendakor on February 27, 2015, 06:16:42 PM
Yeah, broke off into my own reasons not to play somewhere in there. I know the game's not for me already.  :oh_i_see: Forced grouping and forced PVP aren't my thing.

I was trying to focus on the whole, "Look, game requires social interaction to even attempt to play." part of it. I think that's going to limit its success but who knows. I was totally wrong about Landmark faceplanting.  :why_so_serious:

Also, for a group of guys who hates guilds and other people so much that F13 guilds don't last longer than a few months, I'm surprised at the reception here.  (No, Eve doesn't count because those folks don't interact with the rest of the board anymore.)


I don't hate guilds, I just usually game with a different core of people than f13.

Regarding the "defend the caravan thing," Arche Age showed that it can be a lot of fun. Doing trade runs across the ocean and/or ganking those doing same was the best part of that game; if they can capture some of that feeling here without the KRNG hell of AA's crafting I'm fucking sold.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Sophismata on February 27, 2015, 07:55:24 PM
I was sort of tempted by this, but the stretch goals left a bad taste in my mouth.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Paelos on February 27, 2015, 08:00:32 PM
I was sort of tempted by this, but the stretch goals left a bad taste in my mouth.

You think they are going to fire Eric too?  :awesome_for_real:


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Teleku on February 28, 2015, 05:28:51 AM
Quote
Guarding caravans as they ship supplies through enemy territory? Neat! Guarding caravans for 30 minutes across empty terrain only to be ambushed by the zerg and defeated by the lag within four frame-per-second sight of our goal? Ugh. Guarding caravans for 30 minutes across empty terrain and never being ambushed? What am I doing with my life?

This sums up the main hurdle this sort of game needs to overcome rather succinctly. 
Eve seems to be doing ok with literally that exact game play.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Malakili on February 28, 2015, 09:43:26 AM
Quote
Guarding caravans as they ship supplies through enemy territory? Neat! Guarding caravans for 30 minutes across empty terrain only to be ambushed by the zerg and defeated by the lag within four frame-per-second sight of our goal? Ugh. Guarding caravans for 30 minutes across empty terrain and never being ambushed? What am I doing with my life?

This sums up the main hurdle this sort of game needs to overcome rather succinctly. 
Eve seems to be doing ok with literally that exact game play.

"The Zerg" is Eve is an entirely different beast than it is in these sorts of games due to the way travel time works.  I can't recall ever being ambushed by "the zerg" in Eve the way you could be descended upon in DAoC or Warhammer Online, etc.

Also, usually those "caravans" in Eve are things that actually belong to your group, not just an NPC thing you guard/deliver.  Protecting your own haulers or miners is a lot more rewarding than completing a task that conveniently goes through enemy territory to spur  PvP.  I'm not saying Crowfall has no chance of getting it right.  I am just saying the fact that Eve has burrowed out a little niche for itself doesn't mean that those gameplay patterns are always going to work.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: tmp on February 28, 2015, 11:37:43 AM
"The Zerg" is Eve is an entirely different beast than it is in these sorts of games due to the way travel time works.  I can't recall ever being ambushed by "the zerg" in Eve the way you could be descended upon in DAoC or Warhammer Online, etc.
Gate camps are standard part of EVE experience outside of safe space; very much the same deal and yes, they can pull off an ambush as well, if they actually feel like it (if they generally don't it's because basic camp works well enough)


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Malakili on February 28, 2015, 11:45:05 AM
"The Zerg" is Eve is an entirely different beast than it is in these sorts of games due to the way travel time works.  I can't recall ever being ambushed by "the zerg" in Eve the way you could be descended upon in DAoC or Warhammer Online, etc.
Gate camps are standard part of EVE experience outside of safe space; very much the same deal and yes, they can pull off an ambush as well, if they actually feel like it (if they generally don't it's because basic camp works well enough)

I'm well aware of gate camps.  My point is that "the zerg" doesn't strike me as something I've seen in Eve, particularly because players aren't really organized by NPC factions.  That prevents a lot of the "just join up with 25 other random people running around this PvP zone in a relatively unorganized fashion ganking stuff" gameplay that I associate with "the zerg."  Even something as simple as a gate camp has more coordination and planning involved.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Rendakor on February 28, 2015, 12:07:01 PM
Also, usually those "caravans" in Eve are things that actually belong to your group, not just an NPC thing you guard/deliver.  Protecting your own haulers or miners is a lot more rewarding than completing a task that conveniently goes through enemy territory to spur  PvP.  I'm not saying Crowfall has no chance of getting it right.  I am just saying the fact that Eve has burrowed out a little niche for itself doesn't mean that those gameplay patterns are always going to work.
That seems to be the intent here, just like ArcheAge. From the KS update:
Quote
When you raid a quarry and secure a palette of Stone, getting that material back to your stronghold to it -- or to scavenge it for your Eternal Kingdom -- will be a major strategic challenge!

The core module assumes that players will be schlepping these items back and forth in their inventory. That's workable, sure, but it's not nearly as cool as using MOUNTS and CARTS to move those items!
Nothing in that suggests that you'll be guarding NPC caravans; you'll be defending your friends/guilds' materials.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Malakili on February 28, 2015, 12:11:59 PM
I can live with that, then.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Sophismata on February 28, 2015, 06:27:13 PM
I was sort of tempted by this, but the stretch goals left a bad taste in my mouth.
You think they are going to fire Eric too?  :awesome_for_real:
Stretch goals amounting to "we hire more staff" trouble me. As does feature creep.

In general, what I prefer to see is a plan that someone needs money to execute on, not "half a plan that will only become a complete plan if you pay us more than we are asking for".

The fact that they didn't have (for example) quality SFX assets planned is worrying. What else are they not planning that I would assume should be part of the experience they are promising?


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Falconeer on February 28, 2015, 06:38:34 PM
I agree. I would love for this to have NO stretch goals since it's obvious that they need all the money for what is already planned. Stretch goals are the scammiest part of Kickstarters like these.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Malakili on February 28, 2015, 07:07:33 PM
You have to wonder if all of this is just planned from the beginning and they assume it will be better for the buzz surrounding the project if they low ball it, then add in all the stuff they wanted to do anyway as "stretch goals" so it looks like the thing is overperforming instead of just barely meeting the base goal.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: HaemishM on February 28, 2015, 11:03:26 PM
So "Molyneux-ing" then?  :why_so_serious:


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Malakili on February 28, 2015, 11:13:56 PM
Isn't that the opposite of what he does?  He promises everything up front and then can never live up to even his most basic promises.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: HaemishM on February 28, 2015, 11:40:52 PM
Well, his Kickstarter approach was to ask for less than he knew he needed so it would be successful, knowing the stretch goals were likely utter horseshit.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Malakili on February 28, 2015, 11:44:31 PM
Variations on a theme, then.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: schild on March 01, 2015, 01:19:46 AM
You have to wonder if all of this is just planned from the beginning and they assume it will be better for the buzz surrounding the project if they low ball it, then add in all the stuff they wanted to do anyway as "stretch goals" so it looks like the thing is overperforming instead of just barely meeting the base goal.
This is how every gaming kickstarter should be run. Strip the description, add features already planned as stretch goal. Then announce you're making them anyway even if you don't hit the stretch goal. Cults support that sort of behavior.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: LC on March 01, 2015, 07:08:56 AM
I thought kickstarter was a good idea in the beginning. A tool to help indie developers fund projects that would otherwise never be made. Now it's just a scheme for industry vets to milk more money from gamers by selling off things that were given out for free in the past.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Paelos on March 01, 2015, 11:28:45 AM
You have to wonder if all of this is just planned from the beginning and they assume it will be better for the buzz surrounding the project if they low ball it, then add in all the stuff they wanted to do anyway as "stretch goals" so it looks like the thing is overperforming instead of just barely meeting the base goal.

Of course it's planned. They had a number in their head (I'm guessing 4-6M) that it would take it get it done. I think $8M is probably more realistic, but we'll see. They already had about $3M in venture capital with their initial pull and the extra investor money. The Kickstarter puts them in that area they need to make the core game in their mind.

I don't think the KS will get above 2M, which is what I'm guessing is the ceiling. Probably around 1.5M is more likely when they finish. It's still more than enough for a small team to work for a couple of years without worrying about payroll. I think hiring more staff after the KS was always the plan, because they need polish teams for the polish items.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Nija on March 01, 2015, 11:41:39 AM
It just seems disingenuous to have a kick starter for the 'core game' and not an actual game. They know and even SAY that the amount on kick starter won't be able to fund the entire game. They went with a safe amount that would possibly get funded and that is all.

It's like you're participating in a kick starter for the Unreal Engine, but somehow you were tricked to believe you were backing Unreal Tournament.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Threash on March 01, 2015, 11:47:32 AM
The core game is an actual game though, the rest is just extra rulesets.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Draegan on March 01, 2015, 11:56:31 AM
A lot of you are making assumptions. The core game is the player housing section and the free for all PvP world with various rulesets and win conditions.

What stuff isn't included is the faction stuff and gvg stuff.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Gimfain on March 01, 2015, 12:02:44 PM
I think its good that they did a kickstarter for the game. People have asked for PvP sandboxes for quite some time and said they would pay for it, and now they can. I haven't seen anything in the pledges that will ruin the game for those that don't pledge.

The benefits of kickstarter far outweighs the failures, and usually its incompetence and not malicious intent that cause kickstarters to fail.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Merusk on March 01, 2015, 12:56:59 PM
I think its good that they did a kickstarter for the game. People have asked for PvP sandboxes for quite some time and said they would pay for it, and now they can.

And in incredibly small numbers but with large payouts. Almost $100 per backer. Kinda proving that it's a small but vocal group that's always been asking for these games. I hope it works for them, because they're going to need to lean on those whales long-term.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Teleku on March 01, 2015, 02:21:09 PM
Looking back, average pledge for major single player games on kickstarter (wasteland and project eternity and the like) range in into the $50 to $60 range per pledge.  For games they know they'll be able to get on steam for $20 to $30 (and then much cheaper within months). When you bring in the online aspect (and thus longer term gain) people are going to shell out more.  Average on hex was almost $130.  

Hell, the average pledge across all of kickstarter for all projects in history comes out to around $75 a pledge.  It's the nature of the beast.  People who use kickstarter are doing so to either support an idea and/or hope to gain all sorts of limited perks and collectable shit.  Most people who just look at kickstarter as a preorder opt out, not want to risk it.  

So I don't really think you can judge much based on kickstarter averages for most projects.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Tannhauser on March 01, 2015, 03:00:21 PM
I think its good that they did a kickstarter for the game. People have asked for PvP sandboxes for quite some time and said they would pay for it, and now they can.

And in incredibly small numbers but with large payouts. Almost $100 per backer. Kinda proving that it's a small but vocal group that's always been asking for these games. I hope it works for them, because they're going to need to lean on those whales long-term.

Eh, just make ganker specials like buy 8 teabags for the price of 10 and 'Learn 2 play noob' emotes for $15.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: ezrast on March 01, 2015, 10:30:54 PM
The "core module" vs "everything else" stuff feels like a bizarre smokescreen. Unless they're letting players run shards or have access to authoring tools, the distinction is strictly relevant to internal design and means jack all to consumers. A feature is either in the game or it isn't. Am I buying a complete game or aren't I?

edit: yeah, I know we just went over this. "Deck of cards" my ass, though.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Draegan on March 02, 2015, 12:37:32 AM
I dunno, it sounds exactly what they are saying.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: tazelbain on March 02, 2015, 10:49:31 AM
The "core module" vs "everything else" stuff feels like a bizarre smokescreen. Unless they're letting players run shards or have access to authoring tools, the distinction is strictly relevant to internal design and means jack all to consumers. A feature is either in the game or it isn't. Am I buying a complete game or aren't I?

edit: yeah, I know we just went over this. "Deck of cards" my ass, though.
It's wiggle room to sell the big idea with tons of features and deliver the small idea limited feature plus it room to do additional KS for the "expansion" modules.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Nija on March 02, 2015, 01:04:44 PM
An average of $100/ea to deliver a small idea. Nice work to everyone involved.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Falconeer on March 03, 2015, 07:17:37 PM
Some strange new stuff about the "Campaign Embargo", which is... uh.. you better read it yourself. Lots to read but hey, theorycrafting is the best part. At least these seem to be really NEW concepts.

Basically, during a campaign you elect some items that you want to save at the end of the campaign. So you put those items in an "embargo vault", and when the campaign ends, based on your performace, a % of those items will go home with you, the rest will be destroyed. And the only place where you can "upload" your items to your embargo vault is a physical place that will have more ambushes than pixels. Interesting.

Quote
Campaign Embargo FAQ

How are rewards determined at the conclusion of a campaign?

Players can place items, resources, and materials into Embargo – basically, this is a way of “uploading” items to your Account Bank inside a Campaign. This can only be done at certain specific locations inside a Campaign, and items placed there are basically “in quarantine” until the Campaign is over.

When the world is destroyed at the end of a Campaign, some portion of the player’s winnings (i.e. the contents they have placed inside their Embargo vault) will be transferred into that player’s Account Bank. The number of items transferred depends on how well that player fared within the Campaign.

What is the Account Bank? How does it work?

Each player has an Account Bank, which can be used to transfer items between characters on that account. The account bank cannot be accessed when your character is locked into a Campaign.

How does the Account Bank related to the Embargo Vault?

The account bank exists at the account level – meaning that all of your characters share one account bank. The vault is Campaign specific, meaning that each Campaign will have a different Embargo area. At the end of the Campaign, depending on how well you (and your team) did, some number of item(s) will be moved from the Embargo into your Account Bank. The rest of the items will be lost.

What determines the number of items that can be placed in the Embargo Vault?

The size of the Embargo Vault changes based on Campaign type. As a general rule, longer and more risky Campaigns will have larger Embargo Vaults (higher risk leads to higher reward).

The primary factor that determines the size (and loss factor) of the Embargo is how well your team (faction or guild) finished in the Campaign, as well as your individual contribution to the Campaign.

The length of time spent in a Campaign will be used to scale the final results. This is done to prevent players from waiting until the last moment and then jumping on the winning team of a Campaign just to get the reward. (In fact, Players who join at the very end may get no reward -- even if their team is victorious.)

We really believe in the concept of risk vs reward. The more difficult the ruleset of a Campaign – and the longer of a commitment the player is required to make -- the larger the potential payout from the Embargo.

Add this to the fact that the more rare crafting materials are more plentiful in the difficult Campaigns, and we should have a risk/reward ratio that is quite compelling.

Where is the embargo located in the campaign?

To place item(s) into the Embargo Vault, players must physically transfer those items to a particular type of Point of Interest known as a Summoning Circle. The Summoning Circle acts like a giant bank, and can be found in only the most hostile areas. (Thematically, you could think of these like the giant IO towers from TRON).

We are certain that these areas will be incredibly deadly, as they make fantastic ambush spots – other players will know that this is a location players will gravitate towards, and that they will be heavily laden with items when they come. This system also ties well into the Caravan system (currently at stretch goal) to haul stuff to the Embargo. Items placed within an Embargo Vaults cannot be removed. You can’t use Summoning Circles to “teleport” items around the map.

Is the Embargo Vault specific to a player?

Yes! Each player will have their own Embargo Vault to fill, in each Campaign. Players will need to balance how much of the world’s resources are dedicated to helping the team win, versus how much they want to scavenge for themselves. Having a full Embargo Vault isn’t going to help maintain control of the structures in a world!

Are the contents of the embargo safe?

Yes. If you can make it safely inside the Summoning Circle, then any items you place inside your Embargo Vault will be locked there until the conclusion of the Campaign. It is just like a bank in many respects. (Except at the end of the campaign you can lose the stuff anyway.... what kind of a joke bank is that?!)

Some of the Rulesets call for 20% reward how does this work for items?

For materials and resources it is easy – we can just adjust the size of the material stack that each player is entitled to. For equipment, we will have to work out some other means of scaling the rewards.

Do I have any control over which item(s) are kept and which item(s) are lost from my Embargo?

Maybe. Right now our design is simple: we will randomly select which item(s) and materials will be released and which item(s) and materials will be lost. We could certainly change this design later, to give preferential treatment to certain items based on rarity, size, value or player preference.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Threash on March 03, 2015, 07:20:10 PM
Nothing that weird about it, instead of giving you a predetermined reward for winning you get to pick what your reward is.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: HaemishM on March 03, 2015, 10:43:54 PM
Nothing that weird about it, instead of giving you a predetermined reward for winning you get to pick what your reward is might be if the RNG is good to you.

Fixed that for you.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Paelos on March 03, 2015, 11:14:16 PM
I'm picturing some version of that thing in the middle of hunger games.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Torinak on March 04, 2015, 01:54:39 AM
Nothing that weird about it, instead of giving you a predetermined reward for winning you get to pick what your reward is might be if the RNG is good to you.

Fixed that for you.

Can't wait for the cash shop item of "increase chances of keeping things"...


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Lucas on March 04, 2015, 07:40:44 AM
(http://www.adventuresplanet.it/public/images/soluzioni/mi2part1.gif)


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Paelos on March 04, 2015, 08:12:06 AM
Can't wait for the cash shop item of "increase chances of keeping things"...

Diabolical. I approve.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Sophismata on March 04, 2015, 01:53:46 PM
Can't wait for the cash shop item of "increase chances of keeping things"...

Diabolical. I approve.
edit: piece of shit iPhone won't let me copy image paths
http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2005/08/26


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Threash on March 05, 2015, 09:57:39 PM
(http://i57.tinypic.com/2njabti.png)

Something good might come out of this after all!


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Paelos on March 06, 2015, 07:54:00 AM
I miss SWG too.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: schild on March 09, 2015, 01:38:17 AM
Not a soul involved with the NGE or what went on during that period at SOE is ever going to tell/know/reveal the full story.

Missing SWG is like missing the Flying Toasters screensaver.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Merusk on March 09, 2015, 03:18:12 AM
Not a soul involved with the NGE or what went on during that period at SOE is ever going to tell/know/reveal the full story.

Missing SWG is like missing the Flying Toasters screensaver.

Oh sure they will. And it will in no way be a pandering one sided account that paints them as the hero and Lucasarts and SOE upper management as the problem to their golden vision. Nor will it be a decade old telling redrafted after each private discussion prior to that point.

It all would have been perfect if it weren't for those meddling suits.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Hutch on March 09, 2015, 05:20:32 AM
That thread originated because someone figured out that Walton was "responsible" for Trammel in UO. Apparently, there are still some PK misanthropes out there who have been nursing a grudge about it for 15 years.

Here is the story he gave on that topic. (http://community.crowfall.com/index.php?/topic/102-gordon-walton-are-you-the-one-who-brought-us-trammel/#entry1610)

Quote

Yes, I'm the person who is responsible for bringing you Trammel and the dilution the original UO.

And I regret some (but not all) of the outcome.  My charter as the VP of Online at Origin Systems (and Executive Producer of UO), was to grow the game.  The unforgiving play environment that made UO so intense was clearly driving away between 70+% of all the new players that tried the game within 60 days.  The changes we came up with to address this problem were a compromise, mostly driven by fiscal, technological and time reasons.

The good:  After the change which broke the game space into PvP and PvE worlds, the player base and income nearly doubled (we went from 125k to 245k subs).  So from a fiscal responsibility standpoint it was a totally winning move.

The bad:  Without the "sheep to shear" the hard core PvP'ers were disenfranchised.  They didn't like preying on each other (hard targets versus soft targets), and they became a smaller minority in the overall game.  The real bad though was that the intensity and "realness" of the game for all players was diminished.  This was the major unintended consequence.


There's more at the link. Nothing new. The sheep were escaping to games where they weren't locked in a cage with a bunch of psychopaths. Origin didn't want UO to bleed out. Thus a compromise.

In a sense, Trammel already existed, before it was created in UO.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Velorath on March 09, 2015, 06:06:20 AM
We need someone to post that negative subscription graph right now.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Falconeer on March 09, 2015, 07:12:48 AM
That thread originated because someone figured out that Walton was "responsible" for Trammel in UO. Apparently, there are still some PK misanthropes PvP players out there who have been nursing a grudge about it for 15 years.

Here we are.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Paelos on March 09, 2015, 07:59:49 AM
Missing SWG is like missing the Flying Toasters screensaver.

I couldn't mine the flying toasters.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: UnSub on March 09, 2015, 09:45:41 AM
That thread originated because someone figured out that Walton was "responsible" for Trammel in UO. Apparently, there are still some PK misanthropes PvP players out there who have been nursing a grudge about it for 15 years.

Here we are.

They are ready for us:

Quote from: GordonWalton
We are specifically making our game for players who will like the kind of experience we will create, not trying to cast a wide net to get a mass market audience.  We want the folks who will appreciate an intense gaming experience with real risk, winning *and* losing.  While we want as many players who are engaged in our game as possible, we won't need millions of players to make our game work.

(From the same thread as the UO recount.)


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Falconeer on March 09, 2015, 10:01:52 AM
Quote
The good:  After the change which broke the game space into PvP and PvE worlds, the player base and income nearly doubled (we went from 125k to 245k subs).  So from a fiscal responsibility standpoint it was a totally winning move.

The bad:  Without the "sheep to shear" the hard core PvP'ers were disenfranchised.  They didn't like preying on each other (hard targets versus soft targets), and they became a smaller minority in the overall game.  The real bad though was that the intensity and "realness" of the game for all players was diminished.  This was the major unintended consequence.

We are specifically making our game for players who will like the kind of experience we will create, not trying to cast a wide net to get a mass market audience.  We want the folks who will appreciate an intense gaming experience with real risk, winning *and* losing.  While we want as many players who are engaged in our game as possible, we won't need millions of players to make our game work.



Highlighted what matters to us. There were even back then about 125k willing to play the game (UO) with its original intensity and "realness". If these folks can pull that number in 2015, they will have done their job and Gordon Walton will be forgiven for Trammel.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Typhon on March 09, 2015, 10:56:07 AM
I really hope they deliver a solid game because I'm dying to know what the real-world subscriber base is for this type of game.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Paelos on March 09, 2015, 11:05:37 AM
I think it's 100k. People scoffed at that earlier but the market has expanded and plenty of people are looking for something that isn't just another WoW veneer.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Threash on March 09, 2015, 11:15:56 AM
I really hope they deliver a solid game because I'm dying to know what the real-world subscriber base is for this type of game.

If they can deliver shadowbane with resetting maps and win conditions and 2015 polish i'd never stop playing.  To be quite honest besides the polish part what they are promising is not that far fetched.  I know people around here think that kind of game will drive away players in droves but people loved shadowbane and put up with a whole lot of shit that simply would not fly in any other game just to get that kind of experience.  If someone can provide the same experience without electrocuting your balls in the process (some) people will play.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Malakili on March 09, 2015, 11:26:56 AM


If they can deliver shadowbane with resetting maps and win conditions and 2015 polish i'd never stop playing.  

This kind of thinking has burned us dozens of times before.  There will never be one game to rule them all.  That's Star Citizen thinking.  I'll be satisfied if this game is worth a box price.  You've got to set the bar lower.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: shiznitz on March 09, 2015, 12:07:52 PM
Quote
The good:  After the change which broke the game space into PvP and PvE worlds, the player base and income nearly doubled (we went from 125k to 245k subs).  So from a fiscal responsibility standpoint it was a totally winning move.

The bad:  Without the "sheep to shear" the hard core PvP'ers were disenfranchised.  They didn't like preying on each other (hard targets versus soft targets), and they became a smaller minority in the overall game.  The real bad though was that the intensity and "realness" of the game for all players was diminished.  This was the major unintended consequence.

We are specifically making our game for players who will like the kind of experience we will create, not trying to cast a wide net to get a mass market audience.  We want the folks who will appreciate an intense gaming experience with real risk, winning *and* losing.  While we want as many players who are engaged in our game as possible, we won't need millions of players to make our game work.



Highlighted what matters to us. There were even back then about 125k willing to play the game (UO) with its original intensity and "realness". If these folks can pull that number in 2015, they will have done their job and Gordon Walton will be forgiven for Trammel.

What most shocking is the word "unintended." Adding Trammel was clearly and obviously going to lower intensity dramatically.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: palmer_eldritch on March 09, 2015, 01:29:02 PM
That thread originated because someone figured out that Walton was "responsible" for Trammel in UO. Apparently, there are still some PK misanthropes out there who have been nursing a grudge about it for 15 years.

Here is the story he gave on that topic. (http://community.crowfall.com/index.php?/topic/102-gordon-walton-are-you-the-one-who-brought-us-trammel/#entry1610)

Quote

Yes, I'm the person who is responsible for bringing you Trammel and the dilution the original UO.

And I regret some (but not all) of the outcome.  My charter as the VP of Online at Origin Systems (and Executive Producer of UO), was to grow the game.  The unforgiving play environment that made UO so intense was clearly driving away between 70+% of all the new players that tried the game within 60 days.  The changes we came up with to address this problem were a compromise, mostly driven by fiscal, technological and time reasons.

The good:  After the change which broke the game space into PvP and PvE worlds, the player base and income nearly doubled (we went from 125k to 245k subs).  So from a fiscal responsibility standpoint it was a totally winning move.

The bad:  Without the "sheep to shear" the hard core PvP'ers were disenfranchised.  They didn't like preying on each other (hard targets versus soft targets), and they became a smaller minority in the overall game.  The real bad though was that the intensity and "realness" of the game for all players was diminished.  This was the major unintended consequence.


There's more at the link. Nothing new. The sheep were escaping to games where they weren't locked in a cage with a bunch of psychopaths. Origin didn't want UO to bleed out. Thus a compromise.

In a sense, Trammel already existed, before it was created in UO.


I played UO back in those days. When Gordon "Tyrant" Walton came along, he was hailed as something as a messiah by a lot of UO players, or at least the ones I listened to who were the posters on TRoLtM (http://www.brokentoys.org/?page_id=1863) or whatever it was called at that moment in time. Not just because sorting out the PKing situation in UO was seen as a good thing, but because he was seen as someone who generally injected a professional approach into Origin, which was perceived to be pretty dysfunctional at the time.

Of course this might just mean that the hive mind was wrong in 2000. However, the game was extremely brutal before Trammel, far more so than Eve today for example (imagine Eve but everywhere is 0.0 space once you undock). With full looting. Just don't mention it's not a mirror (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultima_Online:_Renaissance).

One of the things that excited UO players about Everquest when it came out, as well as the 3d graphics and the fact that it had different races (people really wanted to be elves), was that it had no PvP unless you actually chose to turn it on. So Tyrant wasn't completely dumb to think UO needed radical changes, even if he didn't get it entirely right.

I think a PvP focused MMO can succeed though. They just need to ensure the penalty for dying isn't too prohibitive, so that people actually want to take part in PvP instead of being terrified of it


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: shiznitz on March 09, 2015, 03:36:41 PM
Removing loot is the best way to soften PvP consequences. People will still want to kill each other and the loser has little reason to cry in his Wheaties.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Kageru on March 09, 2015, 05:00:40 PM

On the other hand when UO existed there weren't as many competitors for online play and the wolves were probably a bit less organized than they would be today. But as long as they've budgeted their costs for being a niche game the more variety the better.

The idea of keeping some proportion of the look you collect between campaigns is logical. But it's still a case of rewarding the winners and will encourage large scale organisations if pooled resources allow them to leapfrog the opposition. As well as getting safe access to (or being able to farm) the embargo point.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Threash on March 09, 2015, 05:12:37 PM

On the other hand when UO existed there weren't as many competitors for online play and the wolves were probably a bit less organized than they would be today. But as long as they've budgeted their costs for being a niche game the more variety the better.

The idea of keeping some proportion of the look you collect between campaigns is logical. But it's still a case of rewarding the winners and will encourage large scale organisations if pooled resources allow them to leapfrog the opposition. As well as getting safe access to (or being able to farm) the embargo point.

You don't get to bring in stuff to the next campaign, your loot goes to your "eternal kingdom".  They haven't exactly been quite clear on what the point of the eternal kingdom is so far, besides a way to reward winners without upsetting the balance of following campaigns.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Draegan on March 09, 2015, 06:33:40 PM
I think it's 100k. People scoffed at that earlier but the market has expanded and plenty of people are looking for something that isn't just another WoW veneer.

It really depends on the quality of the game. If its well executed and works, it's three times that. If its a more polished dark over its right around 100 to 150k


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Draegan on March 09, 2015, 06:40:49 PM

On the other hand when UO existed there weren't as many competitors for online play and the wolves were probably a bit less organized than they would be today. But as long as they've budgeted their costs for being a niche game the more variety the better.

The idea of keeping some proportion of the look you collect between campaigns is logical. But it's still a case of rewarding the winners and will encourage large scale organisations if pooled resources allow them to leapfrog the opposition. As well as getting safe access to (or being able to farm) the embargo point.

  
You don't get to bring in stuff to the next campaign, your loot goes to your "eternal kingdom".  They haven't exactly been quite clear on what the point of the eternal kingdom is so far, besides a way to reward winners without upsetting the balance of following campaigns.

It vary from bring in everything you can to nothing at all. It's up to you.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Rendakor on March 09, 2015, 06:48:16 PM
The more relevant question is what can you take out of the EKs into the PVP areas.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Draegan on March 09, 2015, 07:14:50 PM
The more relevant question is what can you take out of the EKs into the PVP areas.

I just answered that.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: KallDrexx on March 09, 2015, 07:16:33 PM
I honestly believe that this may be the best shot we are given to show that new and different MMO gameplay can be a successful and profitable business.

That being said, the consumer in me isn't willing to shell out any money till it's released and I can get some reviews.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Falconeer on March 09, 2015, 07:44:05 PM
New info!

Quote
Passive Training / Skills FAQ

How does passive training work?

Passive training allows you to advance your character(s) skills, whether or not you are actively logged in and playing the game.
Narratively speaking, this is represented in the game by having a temple with Thrall priests “praying” for your Hero to remember the skills from his previous life.

Is there active training, too?  

Yes, you can advance a skill through use -- but only to get proficiency.  Passive training is the primary way of advancing your character's skills.

Can I only train one skill at a time?

Actually, no!  You can train a character in three skills at any one time.  They don't all advance at the same rate, however.  

You select a primary, secondary and tertiary skill to advance.  The primary will advance quickest, followed by the secondary, followed by the tertiary.
What scale is used for skills?

100% is the "theoretical maximum" of a human hero.  As a point of reference: if your character has a  100% sword skill, then they could compete as an Olympic-level fencer.  

Since our players are immortal champions, chosen by the Gods at the time of their death, they often have skills above the “theoretical maximum” that a human mortal can achieve. Anything above 100% is heroic level; bards wrote poems that centered around your skills and your achievements are the stuff of legends.
How quickly do skills advance?

These numbers are still being balanced, but we're generally going for something like this: to reach 100% level with any skill takes 1 month of primary training, 2 months with secondary, 3 months with tertiary.  

The results are granted on a diminishing returns curve, meaning that it is much easier to gain the first 10% of any skill than it is to gain the last.  
As an upshot of this system, every time you log in, you should see advances in three of your skills!


Can I train more than one character at once?

Yes, if you have an optional VIP membership. A VIP membership allows you to train three characters in parallel. Each character will also have three passive training slots (i.e. it works the same way with ALL THREE characters, as it does with the first one.)

Once I select a primary, secondary or tertiary skill to train, can I change it? Or is it locked?  

It is not locked.  You can change (and re-order) which three skills you want to train at any time.

Can I train beyond my skill max?

No. You can only train up to your skill max.

Can I increase my skill max?

Yes. Max skills are determined by a combination of your archetype, promotion class, advantage and disadvantage runes, and Disciplines.

How are the skill increases calculated over time?

The gains are done on a diminishing returns curve. While it may be quick to gain those low-end skill points, mastery of a skill (i.e. the upper portion of the range) will take a considerable amount of time. It may be more beneficial to work on a bunch of skills at the low end rather than taking a skill to the absolute max. How you choose to advance is up to you!

What if I hit a skill max, and I am not able to get online?

No problem! You can queue-up additional skills to train.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Triforcer on March 10, 2015, 12:05:50 AM
New info!

Quote
Passive Training / Skills FAQ

How does passive training work?

Passive training allows you to advance your character(s) skills, whether or not you are actively logged in and playing the game.
Narratively speaking, this is represented in the game by having a temple with Thrall priests “praying” for your Hero to remember the skills from his previous life.

Is there active training, too? 

Yes, you can advance a skill through use -- but only to get proficiency.  Passive training is the primary way of advancing your character's skills.

Can I only train one skill at a time?

Actually, no!  You can train a character in three skills at any one time.  They don't all advance at the same rate, however. 

You select a primary, secondary and tertiary skill to advance.  The primary will advance quickest, followed by the secondary, followed by the tertiary.
What scale is used for skills?

100% is the "theoretical maximum" of a human hero.  As a point of reference: if your character has a  100% sword skill, then they could compete as an Olympic-level fencer. 

Since our players are immortal champions, chosen by the Gods at the time of their death, they often have skills above the “theoretical maximum” that a human mortal can achieve. Anything above 100% is heroic level; bards wrote poems that centered around your skills and your achievements are the stuff of legends.
How quickly do skills advance?

These numbers are still being balanced, but we're generally going for something like this: to reach 100% level with any skill takes 1 month of primary training, 2 months with secondary, 3 months with tertiary. 

The results are granted on a diminishing returns curve, meaning that it is much easier to gain the first 10% of any skill than it is to gain the last. 

As an upshot of this system, every time you log in, you should see advances in three of your skills!
Can I train more than one character at once?

Yes, if you have an optional VIP membership. A VIP membership allows you to train three characters in parallel. Each character will also have three passive training slots (i.e. it works the same way with ALL THREE characters, as it does with the first one.)

Once I select a primary, secondary or tertiary skill to train, can I change it? Or is it locked? 

It is not locked.  You can change (and re-order) which three skills you want to train at any time.

Can I train beyond my skill max?

No. You can only train up to your skill max.

Can I increase my skill max?

Yes. Max skills are determined by a combination of your archetype, promotion class, advantage and disadvantage runes, and Disciplines.

How are the skill increases calculated over time?

The gains are done on a diminishing returns curve. While it may be quick to gain those low-end skill points, mastery of a skill (i.e. the upper portion of the range) will take a considerable amount of time. It may be more beneficial to work on a bunch of skills at the low end rather than taking a skill to the absolute max. How you choose to advance is up to you!

What if I hit a skill max, and I am not able to get online?

No problem! You can queue-up additional skills to train.

Their board crowd is already freaking out that they cannot grind to max in a week.  Everyone who starts on day 1 will be in pretty much the same place on day 10, day 100- I like it.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Sophismata on March 10, 2015, 03:08:58 AM
Their board crowd is already freaking out that they cannot grind to max in a week.  Everyone who starts on day 1 will be in pretty much the same place on day 10, day 100- I like it.
Why do I find that so delicious?

This looks like a really strong approach to skill progression. They could also pro-rata the skill training rates such that even if you jump in late you can eventually catch up with the day-1'ers.

Also, I really like the way they tie the system narratively to the game. There's a lot you can do in that space (bending game fiction to suit and complement game mechanics) that many games fail to actualise.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Falconeer on March 10, 2015, 04:36:40 AM
It really seems that someone FINALLY decided to try and see if what EVE did was just a fluke or actually good design.

What's left to see is the importance of proficiencies as opposed to "skill training".

Quote
Is there active training, too? 

Yes, you can advance a skill through use -- but only to get proficiency.  Passive training is the primary way of advancing your character's skills.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Draegan on March 10, 2015, 12:44:32 PM
I really like that they are taking lessons learned in Eve and Tera.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Threash on March 10, 2015, 01:31:03 PM
Eh, i considered the fact that you could get a nearly maxed character in shadowbane in less than a day one of its best features.  It allowed for a ton of variety, a three month time investment would never lead to dagger throwing dwarf warriors.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Tearofsoul on March 10, 2015, 05:27:58 PM
I couldn't stop thinking Crowfall Natalie at work  :pedobear:


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: tazelbain on March 10, 2015, 05:31:38 PM
But what will happen to time honored tradition of catassing to max and griefing the fuck out of casuals?


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Zetor on March 10, 2015, 06:13:16 PM
But what will happen to time honored tradition of catassing to max and griefing the fuck out of casuals?
That role will probably pass to the day-0 (or headstart) players who amass a stable of maxed-out gankers in a few months, and use those exclusively to gank newbies. Sure, the newbies will eventually skill up, but there's going to be a few weeks/months while they are ripe for slaughter!


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Merusk on March 10, 2015, 07:42:53 PM
Eve has gatecampers. Crowfall will have resource campers.

Which means rule #1 is: Have a minimum of 2 accounts.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: schild on March 11, 2015, 01:00:48 AM
Which means rule #1 is: Have a minimum of 2 accounts.
I think we all know what Rule #1 is, and that's not it.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Falconeer on March 11, 2015, 07:29:18 AM
Chris Roberts tells his flock to give money to Crowfall. (https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link/transmission/14579-Note-From-The-Chairman-Crowfall-Descent)

Quote
Crowfall is exactly what I was hoping Star Citizen might help enable crowd funding to create. It’s an AAA-quality game that shakes up traditional MMORPGs by trying something new. Crowfall is the brainchild of J. Todd Coleman and Gordon Walton, industry veterans par excellence. In fact, if there’s an award for most impressive MMO pedigree, these two may have a lock on it. Ultima Online, Star Wars Galaxies, The Sims Online, The Old Republic… they were even working on massively multiplayer titles before anyone coined the phrase, with games like Air Warrior and Battletech! These are two developers who could walk into managing any MMO in the industry… and it’s all the more impressive to me that they’ve chosen to build something different with the crowd instead.

Crowfall is something entirely new: the blending of an MMO with a large-scale strategy game… all within a distinctive setting that will feel right at home alongside Britannia and Azeroth. It claims to be an “MMO you can win,” which is an absolutely fascinating concept… and one that they’re backing up, like Star Citizen, by revealing their game design decisions early. Crowfall may not take place in the 29th century, but at its core it’s a game after our own hearts all the same.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Paelos on March 11, 2015, 08:12:39 AM
Oh fuck off Chris.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: KallDrexx on March 11, 2015, 08:31:26 AM
Wait so is he taking credit for MMOs being successful on kick starter?


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Malakili on March 11, 2015, 08:43:42 AM
Crowfall is actually just another Star Citizen module, it's accessed through a holodeck only available on the $2000 ships.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Teleku on March 11, 2015, 09:35:19 AM
Crowfall should promise if they hit 20 million, the stretch goal will be a free totally unique ship in Star Citizen for those who back at over $100.   :why_so_serious:


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Draegan on March 11, 2015, 10:05:28 AM
Crowfall should promise if they hit 20 million, the stretch goal will be a free totally unique ship in Star Citizen for those who back at over $100.   :why_so_serious:

That's genius.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Hutch on March 11, 2015, 10:29:39 AM
Chris Roberts tells his flock to give money to Crowfall. (https://robertsspaceindustries.com/comm-link/transmission/14579-Note-From-The-Chairman-Crowfall-Descent)

Quote
Crowfall is exactly what I was hoping Star Citizen might help enable crowd funding to create. It’s an AAA-quality game that shakes up traditional MMORPGs by trying something new. Crowfall is the brainchild of J. Todd Coleman and Gordon Walton, industry veterans par excellence. In fact, if there’s an award for most impressive MMO pedigree, these two may have a lock on it. Ultima Online, Star Wars Galaxies, The Sims Online, The Old Republic… they were even working on massively multiplayer titles before anyone coined the phrase, with games like Air Warrior and Battletech! These are two developers who could walk into managing any MMO in the industry… and it’s all the more impressive to me that they’ve chosen to build something different with the crowd instead.

Crowfall is something entirely new: the blending of an MMO with a large-scale strategy game… all within a distinctive setting that will feel right at home alongside Britannia and Azeroth. It claims to be an “MMO you can win,” which is an absolutely fascinating concept… and one that they’re backing up, like Star Citizen, by revealing their game design decisions early. Crowfall may not take place in the 29th century, but at its core it’s a game after our own hearts all the same.

That's some hype machine he's got going there.

Crowfall isn't a AAA anything yet. It's not a game until players can log in and start murdering each other.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: WayAbvPar on March 11, 2015, 01:33:06 PM
The mutual handjobs for other KS projects is annoying. STFU an tell me about THIS project, not other charlatans hucksters confidence men dev teams that want my money.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Paelos on March 11, 2015, 02:56:04 PM
The mutual handjobs for other KS projects is annoying. STFU an tell me about THIS project, not other charlatans hucksters confidence men dev teams that want my money.

If you liked... YOU'LL LOVE...


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Sophismata on March 11, 2015, 04:59:37 PM
The mutual handjobs for other KS projects is annoying. STFU an tell me about THIS project, not other charlatans hucksters confidence men dev teams that want my money.

If you liked... YOU'LL LOVE...
Ordinarily yes, but they haven't actually played SC yet. They might not like it, there's nothing yet to go on.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: HaemishM on March 11, 2015, 05:40:25 PM
Of course the backers have played Star Citizen. It's not like the game in their head will be any less real than what Chris Roberts will produce.  :why_so_serious:


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Draegan on March 11, 2015, 05:43:14 PM
To be fair, there are some playable chunks  of the game.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Threash on March 11, 2015, 07:42:37 PM
Today was the largest pledge day since day 4, watch that delicious SC money roll in.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Rasix on March 11, 2015, 07:48:19 PM
New stretch goal: private island in the Caribbean.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Paelos on March 11, 2015, 10:31:02 PM
I hate Chris Roberts so much.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Hutch on March 11, 2015, 10:37:50 PM
New stretch goal: private island in the Caribbean.
With no extradition treaty.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: schild on March 12, 2015, 02:54:14 AM
sigh


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Paelos on March 12, 2015, 08:04:38 AM
They hit their 12,000 backer goal this morning.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Lantyssa on March 12, 2015, 11:23:39 AM
To be fair, there are some playable chunks  of the game.
We don't do fair.

(Though the SC hate is actually amusing at this point.)


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Falconeer on March 12, 2015, 12:06:33 PM
Crafting FAQ  (and equipment decay), part 2.
Also, no Auction House.

Quote
Crafting FAQ Part 2!
 
How do players get access to advanced crafting?
Our system is very freeform! Each of the Archetypes in Crowfall has an initial package of skills, and some of the Archetypes have specific crafting skills in their package. For example, the Forgemaster starting skill package has some initial blacksmithing skill and recipes. As the character progresses and engages in Campaigns they will discover Discipline Runestones such as Weaponsmith, or Armorsmith. As you pick up new Disciplines, that opens up new skills and new recipes. 
 
I have to take a specific Archetype if I want to craft?!
Generally, no. Most of the crafting-oriented Discipline Runestones can be used by any Archetype, though each character is limited as to how many Disciplines they can use (we’re currently planning on 3, max.) We see crafters as a full-time playstyle! They fill a valuable role as much as a tank or damage dealer does. In addition to being able to enjoy the “meta-game” of inter-World trading between Worlds, Crafters also have a specific niche role -- every faction/guild will need to recruit them to turn resources into valuable equipment within the Campaigns.
 
Won’t this encourage a lot of people to make alternate characters for crafting (alts)?
Probably not -- we want to encourage players to only play a single character within a campaign, so we’re putting design rules in place to encourage that. An upshot of this design is that the best “crafters” won’t generally be alternate characters, because it’s not a very effective strategy.   Recruiting proficient and dedicated Crafters will be one key ingredient to waging a successful Campaign. The same can be said of those who choose to specialize in scouting, raiding or sieging. Players (and Guilds) will need to make smart strategic choices about skill specialization -- and even team composition -- before entering a campaign.
 
Is there interdependence between the crafting types?
Most recipes that create equipment require components from each of the crafting styles. Each guild should encourage their members to take a spread of crafting Disciplines, to cover all the component styles. 
 
What does increasing a specific crafting skill do?
Every recipe requires a specific crafting skill (such as Blacksmithing for metal crafts, or Woodworking for wood crafts). Raising this skill will decrease the amount of crafting failures, and potentially increase the quality of the end piece of equipment. That said, we are trying to reduce the amount of randomness (RNG) in the system, so finding the right balance here will require some iteration.
 
The crafting skill also acts as a soft gate rather than a hard gate normally seen in crafting systems. In most games, a crafter wouldn’t see upper end recipes until they hit a certain skill amount, grinding out thousands of needless items to get to that point. In Crowfall, each crafter starts with the same set of key recipes -- the challenge is going to be getting their hands on upper-end resources they can craft with them. If they can get these resources, they CAN craft the item -- but the chances of success are very low. Based on their skill, it becomes a judgment call for the crafter as to when they should start attempting to craft more difficult items.
 
How do you plan to prevent “I only want the best!” Syndrome?
Part of the reason that other games suffer from this is because items are largely permanent – once you gain a particular weapon, you usually don’t give it up (or lose it) until you find a better weapon. This cycle could take months, or years. Crowfall’s design means that items will turn-over much more frequently. Decay and item loss will factor heavily into Crowfall’s economy, so gear that isn't “the best” might be acceptable for a night where the player expects multiple deaths storming the castle. We also see this as a way for the crafters to gain a reputation as one who only sells a certain quality of item. The crafter who really wants to be known for their crafts might craft the same item multiple times and only sell those which they are proud of – and salvage those which don’t meet the quality mark.
 
What do the crafters do with all their rejects?
Since there is no vendor with an endless supply of coins to buy items, crafters can salvage any items they don’t want to get some of the resources back.
 
How fast does equipment decay?
Equipment will take small amounts decay from use in combat and large amounts of decay when the player is killed in combat. Crafters will be able to repair equipment which will lower its max durability each time it is repaired.
 
Is there any way to mass produce items?
Some games (most notably Star Wars: Galaxies) provided the ability for crafters to essentially turn a crafted item into a blueprint that will consume it but allow the crafter to produce a limited amount of copies of that item. We’re considering a similar system, where players can craft a particular item to use a “template” and then order their Thrall Blacksmiths to manufacture that item in larger quantities.
 
How do I sell items to other players? Is there an auction house?
Currently, we don’t plan on offering an auction house. Instead, we are going to have “shopkeeper” Thralls that can be slotted into buildings to sell items. These thralls can be set up within certain structures, both in Campaign Worlds (to service a guild or faction) and in Kingdoms (to foster trade for use in the Eternal Kingdoms, or Campaigns with less strict import restrictions. We also expect that some players will open up their personal Kingdoms as “marketplaces” for other players to come and sell their goods, and take a cut out of every transaction that occurs.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Paelos on March 12, 2015, 12:50:17 PM
I've grown to hate the auction house, so I don't care anymore. It opens the door for people to make a profit by transport, which is a good thing.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Threash on March 12, 2015, 01:35:03 PM
Damn, i was hoping to delegate all crafting duties to an alt.  Oh well, that's probably better for the game anyways.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Rendakor on March 12, 2015, 03:31:39 PM
Global AH has drawbacks, but each area should have one to avoid the need to search 500 player vendors.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Hutch on March 12, 2015, 03:45:04 PM
Comparison Shopping 2 Crush


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: HaemishM on March 12, 2015, 04:03:22 PM
Just get rid of shopping vendors altogether - that will force people to talk to other people in order to buy/sell/trade items. SOCIAL INTERACTION.

I'm only half-kidding. It would drive people fucking bonkers, but if you really want "diplomacy/trade/strategy," you remove the ability for people to get shit easily.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Paelos on March 12, 2015, 04:05:31 PM
I was a huge proponent of the global AH until I saw what it did in a game with absolutely no real barriers. D3 sealed the deal for me.

Real trade doesn't work that way, which is fine. People will create the best marketplaces and get a cut. Others will set up other ones and do the same charging less. Almost like (gasp) Medieval cities back in the day. It'll create economy pvp which I enjoy.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Tmon on March 12, 2015, 04:13:28 PM
Yeah, I could see instead of wasting time learning to craft, it would be worthwhile to just spend your time finding the best crafters and reselling their products to people who can't be bothered with doing the hunting themselves.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Paelos on March 12, 2015, 04:17:40 PM
Yeah, I could see instead of wasting time learning to craft, it would be worthwhile to just spend your time finding the best crafters and reselling their products to people who can't be bothered with doing the hunting themselves.

Essentially yes, you can become a trader of sorts. Or you can create your own market city inside your personal kingdom that attracts shoppers and the merchants pay you a cut, if you have the savvy.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Malakili on March 12, 2015, 05:04:31 PM
Almost like (gasp) Medieval cities back in the day.

 :oh_i_see:


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Falconeer on March 12, 2015, 05:17:17 PM
The Auction House would just kill the kind of crafting profession (which includes the shopkeeper profession) that these guys are trying to do. They are going for Ultima Onine, SWG, Shadowbane models, which -in that departments- were amazing in my opinion. And yes I know SWG had some centralized auction house, but all the good deals and trade until I played happened face to face. This, as everything else, will turn away millios of players, but probably seal the deal for about that 100k figure which includes me.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: tazelbain on March 12, 2015, 05:19:57 PM
If goes like EvE, then you end up spending more time hunting down equipment to fight than actual fighting.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Falconeer on March 12, 2015, 05:44:44 PM
That's pretty cool.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: tazelbain on March 12, 2015, 05:47:47 PM
Maybe for some, I thought it was a boring as hell logistics sim.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Malakili on March 12, 2015, 05:49:05 PM
Eve was boring, but that is kind of what I liked about it.  Boring isn't the opposite of fun, it's the opposite of exciting.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Teleku on March 12, 2015, 06:03:09 PM
I am a fan of these decisions.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Typhon on March 12, 2015, 06:08:20 PM
If goes like EvE, then you end up spending more time hunting down equipment to fight than actual fighting.

Yeah, this was my first thought.  Not a fan of these decisions.  But I'm not looking to find a new MMO-home, so the game probably just isn't for me.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Falconeer on March 12, 2015, 06:16:29 PM
It's even more interesting if people can attack and kill you while you are going around equipment hunting/shopping. Logistics should be less spreadsheety and more "physical" in this game compared to EVE, which means even more chances to PvP.

What if, the best shop for armours is in enemy territory? Or camped, or things like that? For the kind of players this game is being made for, this stuff is amazing.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: tazelbain on March 12, 2015, 06:41:03 PM
Have you even played Open PVP games before? It's all "bow to us or burn". The "the best shop for armours is in enemy territory" is a serf of the enemy or his shop burns. So if he is selling to you its the dregs with a huge mark up. You guys always imagine its going to be some libertarian paradise but these always turn out to be despotic paradises. Non-crafters always have the upper hand because crafters have no way to punish non-crafters the way non-crafters can punish crafters.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Falconeer on March 12, 2015, 07:06:00 PM
The "the best shop for armours is in enemy territory" is a serf of the enemy or his shop burns.

You know I have played all the possible open PvP games. But yes, I concede on the point you make. Mine, and theirs (the authors) is probably more wishful thinking than anything.

Still, while I agree that it's probably not gonna happen, I believe that it's by going for ideas like these that there's a SLIGHT chance to eventually come up with something new especially in the field of open PvP games.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Paelos on March 12, 2015, 07:19:45 PM
I don't think you can burn a guy's shop though. I think the point of these things is to grab materials and then craft them in safety.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Merusk on March 12, 2015, 08:16:43 PM
Unless it's in the Permanent kingdom you can totally burn a guy's shop. The question is what's in that permanent kingdom.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Triforcer on March 12, 2015, 08:45:48 PM
Unless it's in the Permanent kingdom you can totally burn a guy's shop. The question is what's in that permanent kingdom.

Permanent kingdom armor will only be useful for permanent kingdom orgrimmar bank style preening and maybe importation into the more liberal campaigns, but even there I think the devs said you can take 1 or 2 sets in, not 30.   The crafting and shop action should be in the campaigns, if that does not change.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Merusk on March 12, 2015, 09:25:52 PM
That's what I thought, but only based off Raph's endless musings the last 2 decades and SB's premise. 

So what Tazelbain said is exactly how it will work.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Paelos on March 13, 2015, 08:11:52 AM
New stretch goal for 13k backers is one month of VIP access for everyone. That's a pretty cool goal actually. I like things that are nice perks that don't overpromise on the design.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Threash on March 13, 2015, 10:06:59 AM
New stretch goal for 13k backers is one month of VIP access for everyone. That's a pretty cool goal actually. I like things that are nice perks that don't overpromise on the design.

Smart too, give people a sample of the vip and they'll make their three characters and want to keep training them.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Draegan on March 13, 2015, 10:09:51 AM
It's essentially the same thing as giving you a month of a sub when you buy the box.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: HaemishM on March 13, 2015, 11:11:55 AM
Have you even played Open PVP games before? It's all "bow to us or burn". The "the best shop for armours is in enemy territory" is a serf of the enemy or his shop burns. So if he is selling to you its the dregs with a huge mark up. You guys always imagine its going to be some libertarian paradise but these always turn out to be despotic paradises. Non-crafters always have the upper hand because crafters have no way to punish non-crafters the way non-crafters can punish crafters.

Or in other words, it'll be like actual feudalism, which is really just the actual result of libertarian fantasies.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Merusk on March 13, 2015, 11:52:31 AM
Might makes right, bitches.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Falconeer on March 13, 2015, 12:00:21 PM
New Character Progression FAQ. It really is a lot like Shadowbane. Which is a very good thing.


Quote
How does character progression work?

Character progression happens in a few different ways.

At character creation, the player selects an Archetype, and a series of Advantages and Disadvantages.

This is done on a point system; each character (or avatar) has a set number of points that can be spent to improve the character. Additional points can be gained by taking Disadvantages. There is a limit to the number of Advantage and Disadvantage runes that can be added to each character.  

After creating the character and advancing your base skills to a level of competency through gameplay, each Archetype has the option to promote to another Class or occupation. We are planning for multiple promotion classes for each base Archetype.

The promotion classes enable the player to skew their character in a specific direction. Want to be a Knight who does more damage? Promote to Swordsman! Want to be a Knight who has even more defensive skills? Promote to Crusader! Want to be a Knight who has a ranged weapon and skills? Promote to Sentinel!



Can I change my Promotion Class later?  

No. There are a few changes that are permanent, and this is one of them. Choose carefully.  



What does a promotion class grant?  

In almost all cases the promotion class increases your skill maximums on all relevant skills. This enables the player to train their skills deeper into a chosen path, becoming a master at what they do.

Most of the time promotion also grants new powers to use in combat and extends the awesomeness of existing powers.

Sometimes promotion will grant a new weapon that can be used along with skills and powers that accompany it. Such as a melee class gaining the ability to use a bow and the skills that accompany bow usage.  

Promotion also offers the character a final chance to alter any of their advantages and disadvantages. At this point we think the player fully understands what would be useful to their character as a permanent choice.



What are the requirements to promote?  

We are still working on the exact mechanics that will allow a character to promote to their promotion class but are pretty sure it will have something to do with skill points. Either earn a specific total amount of skill points or train some specific skills to a required amount. It might even be a combination of both.



After I select a Promotion Classes, am I done with customization?

No. In addition to promotion classes, characters can also take Disciplines, which are a type of “sub-class” to further customize your character.

Disciplines are applied by collecting Runestones in the game, and applying them to your character. Not every Discipline will be available to every Archetype – but every Archetype will have access to many, many Disciplines.

Disciplines allow you to further customize your characters skills and powers. Want to focus that Knight on more sword damage? Or increasing his Strength attribute? Or turning into a Werebear? These are the types of customization effects that can be added by using Disciplines.

Discipline runes can increase your skill max will certain skills, grant access to new skills and powers, grant you new crafting recipes, or give you the ability to master weapon types that are normally restricted.

The skills, powers and recipes granted by Disciplines are typically very thematic. For example, we wouldn’t have a generic “Weapon Master” discipline that gives you a bonus to swords, spears and shields – but we might have a “Gladiator” discipline that does exactly that, because it makes sense that a Gladiator might have that particular collection of skills.

Discipline Examples:

Alchemist Runestone

“Wine from Water, Lead from Gold”

Grants Potion Recipes
Grants Alchemy Skill
Grants Inventory Bag (Potions) - Potions placed in Potion bag will not explode when hit
Werewolf Runestone

“For the strength of the Pack is the Wolf, and the strength of the Wolf is the Pack”

Grants Limited Time Transformation Power - Grants Werewolf combat powers while in Werewolf form
Grants Bonus Damage Vampyre Stat
Increases Movement speed Stat
Grants equipment slot: Jorts



Can my Disciplines be changed?  

Yes, you can overwrite existing Discipline Runestones with new ones. Doing so will remove or reduce the benefits granted by the previous Discipline, and destroy the old one in the process.



Do Disciplines have restrictions?  

Some of them do, usually in any case where an animation set is required for that weapon which that archetype may not have. For example the Cavalier Discipline (which grants shield mastery and block powers) would not be usable by Duelist archetype, because they do have the necessary skill pre-requirements (shields) or animation sets.



Can you give me some examples of other Disciplines?  

Sure. Here are a few examples.

Standard Bearer

Rune Caster

Collector

Lapidary

Beastmaster

Ratcatcher

Blood of the Ancients

Berserker

Swashbuckler

Stonecutter

Commander



Where do Disciplines Runestones come from?  

Disciplines are found by participating in Campaigns.

The exact method varies: they can be scavenged (meaning they will spawn in ruins, or uncovered as buried treasure when tunneling in the ground), some can be crafted (using additives and resources found in the Campaign worlds) some can be granted as a special Campaign reward.



Can Discipline Runes be traded?  

Yes, but since they can’t be removed (only destroyed), you can only use them if they have not yet been applied to a character.




Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: amiable on March 13, 2015, 12:24:25 PM
This looked interesting enough that I kicked in 36$ to be a backer. I'm going to run under the assumption that it  is terrible though.  Seems like a good idea to get started in a guild, any non-f13 guilds planning on heading in (because we all know the f13 guild will last approximately 2 weeks).


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: HaemishM on March 13, 2015, 12:25:03 PM
As long as the Discipline runes aren't dropped off the same static mob in the same static place that spawns on a set timer, I'm ok with it. The fucking Commander rune from Shadowbane was a PITA spawn camp that immediately became THE hot spot on the server. Everyone wanted to build in close proximity to that one spot, and there's nothing like getting ganked and having the rune stolen right as that bastard spawned.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Threash on March 13, 2015, 12:56:23 PM
http://community.crowfall.com/index.php?/topic/4418-031315-character-progression-faq/

I see a werewolf discipline!


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: HaemishM on March 13, 2015, 02:13:12 PM
HOWL, BITCHES, HOWL!


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Paelos on March 13, 2015, 03:17:44 PM
I wonder when this thing goes to Beta? Probably around Summer 2016 I guess.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: WayAbvPar on March 13, 2015, 04:24:13 PM
As long as the Discipline runes aren't dropped off the same static mob in the same static place that spawns on a set timer, I'm ok with it. The fucking Commander rune from Shadowbane was a PITA spawn camp that immediately became THE hot spot on the server. Everyone wanted to build in close proximity to that one spot, and there's nothing like getting ganked and having the rune stolen right as that bastard spawned.

Even more fun was to pick the mob's pocket for the rune while someone who camped for hours was fighting him  :grin: I can't remember which rune it was I did that on, but god the guy was fucking pissed. Thankfully some nice priest in our guild responded to my 911 and summoned me away.

Shadowbane had some fun mechanics :drill:


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Threash on March 13, 2015, 04:43:20 PM
As long as the Discipline runes aren't dropped off the same static mob in the same static place that spawns on a set timer, I'm ok with it. The fucking Commander rune from Shadowbane was a PITA spawn camp that immediately became THE hot spot on the server. Everyone wanted to build in close proximity to that one spot, and there's nothing like getting ganked and having the rune stolen right as that bastard spawned.

Creating conflict hotspots was sorta the whole point of making them static drops.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Falconeer on March 13, 2015, 05:12:22 PM
Shadowbane had some fun mechanics :drill:

Exactly! That's my point. It really did. Now, the only chance to MAYBE come up with something cool and unexpected (emergent?) is to try and design new stuff centered around resources, thievery, treachery, territory control and things like that. Stuff that worked here and there in Shadowbane. Stuff that worked here and there in EVE. And even in Archeage. The chances that it will work in Crowfall are very low, but certainly higher than if no one ever tries anything again.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: HaemishM on March 14, 2015, 01:16:02 AM
As long as the Discipline runes aren't dropped off the same static mob in the same static place that spawns on a set timer, I'm ok with it. The fucking Commander rune from Shadowbane was a PITA spawn camp that immediately became THE hot spot on the server. Everyone wanted to build in close proximity to that one spot, and there's nothing like getting ganked and having the rune stolen right as that bastard spawned.

Creating conflict hotspots was sorta the whole point of making them static drops.

Oh I had no problem with them as resources that generate conflict. It was that one rune in particular that was the problem. It was utterly and completely without parallel, and every guild needed as many of them as they could to compete. A squad with a commander rune had a huge advantage over a squad without one.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Segoris on March 14, 2015, 07:46:35 PM
Yeah, hot spots for conflict is fine, but don't keep them confined to one static spot. Mix the spawn point up to create multiple conflict hot spots. Even better if they are not too far away,


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Draegan on March 15, 2015, 09:51:05 AM
They have said in one interview or another mines will spawn nodes of rich whatevers and then  will be able me kind and of global message or something as an example.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Tannhauser on March 15, 2015, 10:33:32 AM
Maybe do 'Ore Tracking' where your skill allows you to see all the ore nodes in a zone.  They are ranked Rich, Average and Poor.  The lone crafter might risk going out to a Poor node solo while a team camp the Rich nodes for their guild.

If there are a lot of poor nodes, it will spread the gankers out maybe and also let solo crafters get a node or two.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Falconeer on March 16, 2015, 11:45:20 AM
Mount and TAMING FAQ!

Yes, even your mount can be stolen or corpse looted.

Quote
Mount FAQ


What are mounts like in Crowfall?
Mounts are creatures that have been tamed to act as both a companion and a steed. They provide players with a method of moving more quickly around the game, and sometimes giving them the ability to transport more items.


How do I get a mount?
Players with the right skill(s) will be able to tame certain creatures they find in the world, and some of these can be ridden as mounts. Additionally, some magic items will allow the player to manifest (summon) a mount from your inventory. 


What determines if I can tame a creature?
All gameplay in Crowfall requires one or more skills; taming and riding mounts are no different! Certain creatures will require higher amounts of skill to tame than others. Skill will also be required in order to keep control of that creature once you have tamed it. Increasing your riding skill will help you tame more wild creatures, which in turns allows you to increase your movement speed while mounted. 


Can you tame creatures other than Mounts? What can you do with the tamed creature?
Yes. Some creatures are a pack animals. Taming them allows you to open up a separate inventory on that creature, to add and remove items from it, and to order that creature to take simple commands like “stay,” “come” and “follow me.” If the creature is a regular mount, you can ride it, have it follow you or release it back into the wild (i.e. un-tame it). With figurine mounts, you can also dismiss them (i.e. turn it back into a figurine in your inventory, for later use).


Can mounts be attacked? Do they have health? Can they be killed?
Yes, yes and yes. Mounts are creatures in the world, so they can take damage and be killed.


Will a mount defend himself, or you, if attacked?
Yes, when you are not riding on a mount, the mount will defend itself and/or its master. 


Can players use creatures higher than their riding skill allows? 
No. The riding skill determines which mounts you can ride, as well as mount speed.


You said that mounts can die. Can figurine mounts die?
Yes, but figurine mounts have multiple lives. When it dies, the item takes some decay, and there is a delay timer before the mount can be summoned again. Remember that these are items, so they follow the same design philosophy as everything else: nothing lasts forever.


Can someone else take my mount? 
These are items, so they are subject to the Campaign loot rules. That means there is a risk/reward scenario whenever you decide to use a mount figurine. Be careful where you take them.


What about the Kickstarter reward mounts? Don’t they last forever?
The Kickstarter mounts will be limited in use, like normal figurines – but we WILL give you a way to get the visual appearance back, if they are lost in gameplay. Our goal is not to make these “permanent”, but rather to make them temporary, but recoverable. We do want you to be able to continue to use them over the lifetime of the game, though, to show other players that you were an early backer.


Can I get more figurines in the game? Or only through Kickstarter? 
There will be Disciplines that allow players to craft new figurines. However, the Kickstarter reward figurines have a unique appearance. Only Kickstarter backers (of the appropriate tiers) will have access to these mounts. 


Can my Centaur character ride on a mount? 
No, centaurs already have a base movement speed increase and there will be some other mechanic that allows them to travel at mount speed.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Paelos on March 16, 2015, 12:28:07 PM
It's hard to say what part gear is going to play in the actual game, if it's all so transient.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Zetor on March 16, 2015, 01:07:34 PM
Similarly, what will be the purpose of crafters? I mean, sure, we'll have the handful of mega-hardcore crafter catasses with uberguild backup who start making super-optimized weapons/armor and probably amassing several Scrooge McDuck moneybins on day 1... then what? Hundreds/thousands of nameless 'also ran' crafters whose purpose is to mass-produce "kinda okayish" gear the guilds will buy up in bulk for their zerg sieges? I can feel the excitement already.

(I used to play a pure crafter back in SWG... yeah, still bitter. SWG does that to people. :grin:)


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Paelos on March 16, 2015, 01:12:59 PM
If collecting and funneling resources is the name of the game, I don't think you can take it with you into the game. So it's going to be about setting up shop early and dominating the map.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: HaemishM on March 16, 2015, 02:32:46 PM
Also, all gear is going to be decaying, so very transient - meaning the crafters will have a market that doesn't stagnate because everyone will eventually need new gear.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Draegan on March 16, 2015, 02:52:25 PM
It's heavily influenced by EVE. So gear will be lost and gained through PVP and loot drops (with varying degrees of severity). Same thing can be said about winning materials and bringing them into campaigns. From a design point of view, each campaign has it's own import rules. Some allow you to bring everything you have, some allow you to bring in nothing. You get to choose.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Draegan on March 16, 2015, 02:54:31 PM
Similarly, what will be the purpose of crafters? I mean, sure, we'll have the handful of mega-hardcore crafter catasses with uberguild backup who start making super-optimized weapons/armor and probably amassing several Scrooge McDuck moneybins on day 1... then what? Hundreds/thousands of nameless 'also ran' crafters whose purpose is to mass-produce "kinda okayish" gear the guilds will buy up in bulk for their zerg sieges? I can feel the excitement already.

(I used to play a pure crafter back in SWG... yeah, still bitter. SWG does that to people. :grin:)

It's the same premise as EVE. Campaigns will be limited in population, and not everyone can craft, so I doubt you'll be amoung many of thousands. Maybe 100 or so?


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Threash on March 16, 2015, 03:13:52 PM
Campaigns are limited by only letting you bring one character, not by population as far as i know.  I think that will do a much better job of keeping the number of crafters low than anything else.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Falconeer on March 17, 2015, 10:50:47 AM
Daily News from the Crawful PvP utopia.

Today it's about Campaign rewards. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RuUUqcEo9QQ)

Quote

Relics & Artifacts FAQ

Do I get anything for participating in Campaigns?
Yes. First of all, Campaigns are the primary method of collecting materials and rare resources for use in the Eternal Kingdoms.

Second, Campaigns are also the source of Artifacts and Relics. These are items players can earn by participating in Campaigns.


What do Artifacts and Relics do?
When displayed in the proper building in your Eternal Kingdom, Artifacts and Relics will grant you blessings, which represent the influence of ancient magic and the divine favor of the Gods. These blessings work in much the same manner as passive training: they are “always on” your character, regardless of which Kingdom or Campaign you travel to.


What is a Blessing?
Blessings are passive spell effects (utility buffs) that players can select based on the Artifacts and Relics they have access too. Blessings are minor effects, like “increases archery training speed by 1%” or “increases wood harvesting speed by 5%”.

There is a maximum amount of blessings a player can have active on a character at one time (current estimate is 3 per character). Collecting more Artifacts and Relics on your will give you more blessings to choose from -- but since all characters are limited to only 3 active blessings at any time, having more of them only gives you more variety and choice, not more power.


What is the difference between an Artifact and a Relic?
Artifacts are typically guild rewards. Relics are typically player rewards.
Artifacts are “World” rewards. These can only be gained by winning Campaigns. Artifacts are meaningful trophies (like the World Cup) that can be displayed in your Eternal Kingdom, that confer their blessings on all the players who own land in that Kingdom.
An example of an Artifact might be “the Anvil of Kane”, which (when placed, for example, inside a Reliquary in a Mountain Citadel) offers the “Strength of the Crescent Moon” blessing to all the players on this World.
Relics are “Player and City” rewards. Relics offer similar blessings, but can only be utilized by a smaller number of players – they can be placed inside of the buildings in the cities or villages of your Eternal Kingdom. Relics can be collected in Campaigns or crafted using rare reagents.
An example of a Relic might be “the Blade of Taerious”, which (once placed in a Chaos Temple) offers the “Gaes of Speed” blessing to the players who own land in and around a (player-built) village in your Kingdom.


How do I use my Artifact, or Relic?
To be activated, an Artifact or Relic must be placed on display in an appropriate building in the guild or player’s Eternal Kingdom. Different buildings house different types of Artifacts and Relics, for example:
- Barracks can only display weapons of legend. 
- Temples can only house religious items. 
- Reliquaries can house many different type of artifacts and relics, but take up a lot of real estate and require a lot of maintenance/property tax. 
Each Artifact or Relic must be placed in a building for the blessing to be active. The blessing on these items are time-limited; when the blessing runs out, the Artifact or Relic must be recharged.


Is there any other way to get these outside of Campaigns? Yes.
These are items, and can be freely traded between players.



Also, Guinea Beast Pack Pig free for all backers. It carries around resources, which sounds more and more like a system borrowed from Archeage. Again, good.

(https://ksr-ugc.imgix.net/assets/003/454/782/eec5e1e2d9b1e9b2e8255beca71a8302_original.jpg?v=1426602651&w=700&h=&fit=max&auto=format&q=92&s=28c37bfd5cefc9810f19527f5cadf607)


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Soulflame on March 17, 2015, 12:44:37 PM
Also, all gear is going to be decaying, so very transient - meaning the crafters will have a market that doesn't stagnate because everyone will eventually need new gear.
If gear is that transient, then most players will go with the best price point gear, in terms of defense/offense points for time spent (whether in resource gathering + crafting or money gathering time.)  I'd actually expect that price point to be well within the reach of most casual crafters.

In UO, most of the good gear sat in banks.  Unless the player felt the risk of losing the gear was low enough to warrant using it.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: shiznitz on March 17, 2015, 04:48:07 PM
And that tendency to hoard was not good for the game. Players hoarded the weapons and armor with the most durability because the marginal cost of the higher durability gear was so high, i.e. while the actual durability differential was a linear relationship, the relative rarity of the crafting components was exponential.

What UO showed was that if +1 weapons are extremely rare, players will not risk losing them even though the benefit of the +1 is statistically small. IIRC, the best weapons in the game would add 5% to one's attack skill which would effectively add less than 5% to one's success rate. Players invested so much gold/time in acquiring the best gear, they had an irrational fear of losing it even if such loss barely altered their effectiveness.

If items can be lost/looted, then players will hoard those items that are hardest to acquire making those items' existence basically pointless. The way to cure this is have items degrade with time, not actual usage.  If that awesome axe is going to decay in your bank anyway, you might as well use it.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Draegan on March 17, 2015, 04:54:49 PM
The fact that there are some campaigns that you can't bring gear out of, you might be compelled to use them just because you'll lose them anyway.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Triforcer on March 17, 2015, 07:22:00 PM
The fact that there are some campaigns that you can't bring gear out of, you might be compelled to use them just because you'll lose them anyway.

Well, maybe.  But I was the type of guy who would complete a BG2 file with an inventory full of  100 never used consumables because I was always afraid of "wasting" them.   Some people just game that way.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Paelos on March 17, 2015, 07:44:16 PM
Yeah the healing potion problem.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Segoris on March 17, 2015, 10:28:07 PM
I only think people will hoard when joining a full-loot campaign, but I also think those will not be the most common. The more common rulesets will likely not have full-loot, and hoarding shouldn't be too much of an issue there.

I actually view those servers and the economy they create to be closer to DAoC then UO, and hoarding was not bad there since gear lasted long enough to not really need to hoard. Personally, I only kept one extra piece of gear for each slot and sold the rest (with 99/100qua gear at stupid mark-ups).


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Paelos on March 18, 2015, 08:00:16 AM
Yeah in DAOC, loot decay sort of made everything a non-issue when it came to expenses. It also created a market for non-perfect items that everyone could afford as regular wear.

Loot in some ways should mirror how we wear what we do daily. There's armor for different occasions. Sometimes you don't want that fancy set while you're washing the mule and fending off boggarts.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Typhon on March 18, 2015, 08:48:22 AM
If the way you gather gear or gold to pay for gear is tedious (you put fucking PvE in my PvP?!) then I do not want.  I want to fight.  I don't want to craft, heal, scavenge for materials, hunt for crafters or play the AH (seems like they understand this part).  I just want to fight.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Paelos on March 18, 2015, 08:51:28 AM
I don't want to craft, heal, scavenge for materials, hunt for crafters or play the AH (seems like they understand this part).  I just want to fight.

Uh, the entire thing seems to revolve around materials, crafting them, hording them, and fighting over them. And whether you get to take them with you.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Malakili on March 18, 2015, 09:35:48 AM
If the way you gather gear or gold to pay for gear is tedious (you put fucking PvE in my PvP?!) then I do not want.  I want to fight.  I don't want to craft, heal, scavenge for materials, hunt for crafters or play the AH (seems like they understand this part).  I just want to fight.

You realize that outright fighting isn't the only kind of "PvP" in these games right?

Anyway, I'm sure you'll be able to just do combat on your character if you want to.  But if all you want is deathmatch, I'm not sure why you'd want an MMO to begin with.

I really don't know why I still get sucked into these same stupid arguments a decade later.  Eh, whatever.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Merusk on March 18, 2015, 09:40:01 AM
If the way you gather gear or gold to pay for gear is tedious (you put fucking PvE in my PvP?!) then I do not want.  I want to fight.  I don't want to craft, heal, scavenge for materials, hunt for crafters or play the AH (seems like they understand this part).  I just want to fight.

Sign onto a very large guild, then. That's the only way you'll get to be a foot soldier and be equipped without touching crafting or farming.

ed: Oh, you'll also have to be of some prominence in that guild. You can't sit around not farming as random scrub, you have to be able to justify, "i'm doing xyz for the guild" to be supported like that.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Draegan on March 18, 2015, 09:58:51 AM
If they do things right, if all you want to do is fight, you'll probably end up sitting around and defending crafters as they gather shit. Protecting forests/mines and what not or invading and getting those areas under control.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Typhon on March 18, 2015, 01:23:53 PM
If the way you gather gear or gold to pay for gear is tedious (you put fucking PvE in my PvP?!) then I do not want.  I want to fight.  I don't want to craft, heal, scavenge for materials, hunt for crafters or play the AH (seems like they understand this part).  I just want to fight.

You realize that outright fighting isn't the only kind of "PvP" in these games right?

Anyway, I'm sure you'll be able to just do combat on your character if you want to.  But if all you want is deathmatch, I'm not sure why you'd want an MMO to begin with.

I really don't know why I still get sucked into these same stupid arguments a decade later.  Eh, whatever.

What argument, I just said, essentially, "I don't want PvE in my PvP".  There were parts of WAR that I found a lot of fun - the places on the map where you fought eachother (can't remember the name) were good.  When they said, "campaigns", in my head I read that as, "Shadowbane land battle with victory conditions and a maximum campaign duration" and thought that sounded pretty cool.

All these crafting/material systems just sound tedious... TO ME.  You could just say, "welp, seems like the game isn't for you then".  And I'd say, "yeah, well I hope it's to y'alls liking".  Instead, drama.  Eh, whatever.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Paelos on March 18, 2015, 01:31:33 PM
No drama, just don't see your point. If you want fighting for pure fighting, there's already hundreds of multiplayer games that scratch that itch.

I don't think you would ever want any version of MMO PvP if you're actually into PvP for the pure kill. They mostly suck at implementation.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Typhon on March 18, 2015, 02:23:11 PM
No drama, just don't see your point. If you want fighting for pure fighting, there's already hundreds of multiplayer games that scratch that itch.

I don't think you would ever want any version of MMO PvP if you're actually into PvP for the pure kill. They mostly suck at implementation.

I had no problem with your response.  You basically said, "if you don't want to fight over mines and the out of combat competition of gearing up your warband then this game is probably not for you", which is valid.  Which is almost exactly the same as Malikili's post, except for the, "SOB! I DON'T KNOW WHY I BOTHER!", at the end which annoyed the shit out of me for some reason.

What I want from this game is to have the crafting/resources/etc as part of the PvP rather than as something you do for a couple weeks in preparation for the PvP.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Falconeer on March 18, 2015, 02:26:36 PM
The way they are building it sounds to me like it has zero PvE or very close to. Resources and all are like rewards and the fuel (excuses) for PvP, certainly not PvE. Sure, you might have to kill a mob to drop the rune you are looking for, but it is clear they are building the game so the risk when attacking that mob is not that the mob will kill you, but that another player will attack you while you are fighting that mob. If there will be any PvE, it will be trivial content meant to create PvP hotspots. Todd even said in the last interview that he sees it as Walking Dead, where the monster threat (PvE/zombies) becomes something you don't pay attention to anymore as the real threat are other people. So more of DayZ than your usual theme park MMO.

So yea, win/win. Especially cause they have stated a million times that you won't be able to be a crafter AND a fighter, meaning there will likely be one person wantng to play crafter every 19 who want to play fighter. So, where's the problem?

Resources don't mean PvE. Crafting doesn't mean YOU have to do it in a game where crafters are a dedicated class that is not supposed to fight. Don't mean to stop the drama, but I really think this game seems to do exactly what Typohon wants to me, as he can be a grunt and forget everything about resources and crafting as long as at least one person in their group is keeping track of that stuff.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Malakili on March 18, 2015, 02:27:29 PM


What I want from this game is to have the crafting/resources/etc as part of the PvP rather than as something you do for a couple weeks in preparation for the PvP.

I think that is what is going to happen, based on what they have said.

As for the rest, you can't understand at all why I'm growing tired of the same old MMO PvP discussion?  I was just commenting on the fact that as I was writing my response I realized I've had this same conversation a dozen times and that it isn't going to get resolved this time either.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Threash on March 18, 2015, 05:05:38 PM
If the way you gather gear or gold to pay for gear is tedious (you put fucking PvE in my PvP?!) then I do not want.  I want to fight.  I don't want to craft, heal, scavenge for materials, hunt for crafters or play the AH (seems like they understand this part).  I just want to fight.

You realize that outright fighting isn't the only kind of "PvP" in these games right?

Anyway, I'm sure you'll be able to just do combat on your character if you want to.  But if all you want is deathmatch, I'm not sure why you'd want an MMO to begin with.

I really don't know why I still get sucked into these same stupid arguments a decade later.  Eh, whatever.

What argument, I just said, essentially, "I don't want PvE in my PvP".  There were parts of WAR that I found a lot of fun - the places on the map where you fought eachother (can't remember the name) were good.  When they said, "campaigns", in my head I read that as, "Shadowbane land battle with victory conditions and a maximum campaign duration" and thought that sounded pretty cool.

All these crafting/material systems just sound tedious... TO ME.  You could just say, "welp, seems like the game isn't for you then".  And I'd say, "yeah, well I hope it's to y'alls liking".  Instead, drama.  Eh, whatever.

The biggest reason pvp happened in shadowbane was over territory you could pve in.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Paelos on March 18, 2015, 06:08:14 PM
MMO PvP needs incentives, and also common chokepoints. You don't want people just wandering around looking for a fight, you want them fighting over something that has a specific area you can't avoid.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Typhon on March 18, 2015, 07:17:56 PM


What I want from this game is to have the crafting/resources/etc as part of the PvP rather than as something you do for a couple weeks in preparation for the PvP.

I think that is what is going to happen, based on what they have said.

As for the rest, you can't understand at all why I'm growing tired of the same old MMO PvP discussion?  I was just commenting on the fact that as I was writing my response I realized I've had this same conversation a dozen times and that it isn't going to get resolved this time either.

I can.  I don't know why I'm pissy today.  Sorry.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: shiznitz on March 19, 2015, 11:00:01 AM
Is that the first "Sorry" in f13 history? AND in a MMO thread about PvP vs PvE? Fuck.  We are getting old.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Paelos on March 19, 2015, 11:08:34 AM
We've gone soft as Charmin.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Falconeer on March 19, 2015, 12:01:55 PM
I have a long personal history of "sorry" here on f13, which I am usually mocked for. I guess it's a cultural divide. Good think I don't care.  :drillf:


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Threash on March 19, 2015, 12:21:03 PM
15k backer goal is oculus rift support  :uhrr:


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Ginaz on March 19, 2015, 12:51:26 PM
We've gone soft as Charmin.

I'm soft as baby shit these days. :geezer:


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Draegan on March 19, 2015, 12:56:40 PM
15k backer goal is oculus rift support  :uhrr:

Yeah I don't understand that one. How do you have VR in a 3rd person game.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Paelos on March 19, 2015, 01:10:07 PM
The 15k backer thing could have been called Monkey farts and rainbows. I don't think they're getting there in 6 days unless Chris Roberts commands his horde to sacrifice themselves.

In other news, 10 people backed 10k on this thing? That's not real right?


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Threash on March 19, 2015, 01:14:06 PM
It's not real until the timer ends, yeah.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: pxib on March 19, 2015, 01:21:14 PM
Alternately, they're the PvPers who left online games after Shadowbane closed and used their spare time to go get real jobs... but haven't managed to get married or have kids. Nothing excites them more than the idea of returning to the glory days of their youth, and $10,000 seems a small price to pay for a leg up in Shadowbane II. Otherwise it'd all just disappear into Warhammer miniatures.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Soulflame on March 19, 2015, 03:13:02 PM
15k backer goal is oculus rift support  :uhrr:

At first I was like  :awesome_for_real:.

And then I realized, whoa, he's serious.

Then I was like.  :ye_gods: :uhrr:


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Tannhauser on March 19, 2015, 04:12:09 PM
Alternately, they're the PvPers who left online games after Shadowbane closed and used their spare time to go get real jobs... but haven't managed to get married or have kids. Nothing excites them more than the idea of returning to the glory days of their youth, and $10,000 seems a small price to pay for a leg up in Shadowbane II. Otherwise it'd all just disappear into Warhammer miniatures. up their noses.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Merusk on March 19, 2015, 06:52:54 PM
Cocaine is a social drug. If you've got $10k sitting around because you were waiting on the next great PVP mmo rather than moving on it's not going up your nose any more than it was going into Warhammer figs as that ALSO requires social interaction.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Paelos on March 19, 2015, 08:01:55 PM
 :facepalm:


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Merusk on March 19, 2015, 08:15:07 PM
 :awesome_for_real:


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: MrHat on March 19, 2015, 10:04:31 PM
Aw man, fuck you guys.  I kinda wanna back this for Beta access.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Draegan on March 19, 2015, 11:37:36 PM
Apparently Unity5 has some VR built into it.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Nija on March 19, 2015, 11:50:36 PM
Anyone that backs this or gets even the tiniest tingling of hype is dead to me.

Dead to me.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Paelos on March 20, 2015, 08:16:29 AM
Anyone that backs this or gets even the tiniest tingling of hype is dead to me.

Dead to me.

You know a lot of dead people then.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Nija on March 20, 2015, 11:02:04 AM
Stupid, annoyingly optimistic, dead motherfuckers as far as the eye can see.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Soulflame on March 20, 2015, 11:25:55 AM
I look at it this way.  Either we get a hilarious trainwreck of a game, and a lot of PvPer tears, or we get a moderately successful game that might interest most of the people here, at least a little.

I mean, I'm leaning glorious trainwreck, the likes we haven't seen since Shadowbane, but still.  You never know.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Threash on March 20, 2015, 11:27:33 AM
Aw man, fuck you guys.  I kinda wanna back this for Beta access.

I went for alpha 2  :awesome_for_real:


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Falconeer on March 20, 2015, 12:32:48 PM
New stuff of the day is about Eternal Kingdoms. I think it's very interesting stuff, but you be the judge:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=czTfq1k7aAA


Quote

How do I get a Kingdom?
Every account is granted a Kingdom. They start as mini-worlds that players can use to build and explore, which can be expanded to become much larger.
 

What is the purpose of a Kingdom and why do I want one?
Kingdoms are smaller versions of the Campaign worlds – not just social lobbies. You are the Monarch of this world! You can explore, craft, build structures and even fight monsters… but a Kingdom is limited in terms of difficulty and power.
All accounts are granted a kingdom at the beginning of the game, but using it is not required (…beyond maybe a tutorial? We haven’t decided yet.)
We fully expect that some players will prefer to spend the vast majority of their time participating in the Campaign Worlds, and we intend to let them do so without maintaining a Kingdom.
 

How do Kingdoms compare to Campaign Worlds?
Kingdoms, while potentially quite large, are limited in size compared to the Campaign worlds. They are also limited in functionality and content. They start with a relatively small amount of land and no buildings. If you want to upgrade them, it will take time and effort (and materials, which come from Campaign Worlds.)
Kingdoms must be upgraded (and developed) to increase their functionality. They start as single-player realms, and must be upgraded to allow more players to join.
 

How are Kingdoms laid out, and how big are they? Is it like a housing instance?
The map of every Kingdom is divided into a square grid. Each square in the grid is called a “cell.”
Kingdoms begin as a 3 cells by 3 cells square. We’re still building this system, so the cell sizing will probably change a bit… but in the current prototype, this equates to roughly half a mile square of virtual territory.
The Kingdom can grow to be many, many times larger than this starting size.
 

Why would the size of a cell change?
At some point (soon) the size of the grid cell will be locked. At this phase in development, there are some unknowns which would affect cell size. For example: Our Mounts and Caravans Kickstarter stretch goal is about to be funded! Obviously, that system will change how quickly players can move through the World, and we’ll need to test the world size to make sure it feels right for both mounted and un-mounted players.
For now, we are estimating a cell will likely be somewhere between a quarter of a square acre and two square acres in size. Either way, even the smallest Kingdom will be much larger than a typical MMO housing instance.
 

How can I make my Kingdom larger?
It will likely take a combination of time and raw materials (stone, iron and wood) to add cells (raw square footage) to your Kingdom.
 

When I add a cell, what is it filled with?
Terrain/Land. The contents of each cell is initially “wild”, meaning that it is filled with untamed (and unusable) forest. You cannot build assets on land that is wild – and without buildings, the land has very little utility/function.
To develop one or more cells, you have to unlock it, after which you can use materials to buy “parcel deeds”. These deeds represent tracts of land that can be dropped onto your map. Parcels can have unique shapes (like Tetris pieces) that always fit within the boundaries of one or more cells. Our plan is that parcel deeds will be purchased with in-game resources.
Note: our Kickstarter backers who receive tax-free parcels with a pledge will automatically receive enough unlocked cells to place those parcels.



(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/3584773/CROW%201%20EK_1-WorldManagement_RC1.jpg)
 
 

What size are these parcels (in cells)?
The most basic parcel is 1 cell x 1 cell, and will include very limited features.
Some parcels are much more complex, like a chain of 7 parcels that makes up a Mountain Citadel, multiple player villages, and the mountain range around it. Think of these larger areas as a complete region of a country, i.e. “I am the Lord of the Western Reach. From my Citadel, I control all of the Darkspine Moutains -- as far as the eye can see.”
Once you drop a parcel into a cell (or cells), these areas in your Kingdom will be “terraformed” and appear in your Kingdom. Using different types of parcels, you can build the World to be completely unique – the only limit is your creativity.
 

Not all Parcels are the same size, and shape?
No, but they are constructed to fit precisely within a pre-determined, contiguous set of cells. While there are many parcels that are 1x1 squares, there are multi-cell parcels that form different shapes, as well.
The Mountain Citadel, for instance, is actually a 7 square parcel that forms an “S” shape. It includes not just the Citadel, but the mountain range that surrounds it – and enough building area to construct two mountain villages.
To place this parcel in their world, a player would need to have enough cells unlocked in the appropriate shape (or larger) in which they could place the specialty “S” shaped parcel.
In order to obtain a multi cell parcel a players will be able to combine basic 1x1 parcels for specialty parcels.
 


(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/3584773/CROW%202%20EK_2-ParcelManagement_RC1.jpg)
 


Why would I want to have these larger parcels on my World?
Having a larger parcel (like a Mountain Citadel, or an Imperial Palace) added to the World is highly valuable to any Monarch, especially one who is trying to build a mercantile empire, because it offers very efficient use of build space (number of available contiguous building lots), increases the concurrent player cap of the World, and increases the Kingdom’s visibility for other players when the Kingdom is set “public”.
All of which equates to a more popular Kingdom, increased commerce and a larger potential tax base.
 

In game terms, does a larger Kingdom (with more parcels) give me an advantage?
Yes, and no.
Larger maps have more cells. More cells allows you to place more parcels. More parcels means more buildings. More buildings allow for more tenants, higher online player population caps (i.e. how many players can be on this world at any time) and better visibility when other players are browsing the Kingdom list for new markets (or Kingdoms).
All of this also means more commerce, which can generate more tax revenue.
Note, however, that these are indirect benefits – meaning social and economic benefits that you derive from other players.
However, since every Campaign World will have import rules (that determine what can be brought into the World), having a larger, more developed Kingdom will not directly impact the game balance within the Campaigns.
 

How do I collaborate with other people (like my guildmates) on a Kingdom?
The Monarch can select sub-sections of your world map (in cells) and grant that area to another player. This selection of cells is called a “Province”.
 


(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/3584773/CROW%203%20EK_3-ProvinceGrants_RC1.jpg)
 


Any player who has been granted a province is considered a “noble” on that world. Nobles can drop, rearrange and remove Parcels within that Province.
 

Once I drop a Parcel, what can I do with it?
You can build on it. As the World is divided into cells, each Parcel is divided into “Lots.” You drop buildings and props onto Lots the same way you drop Parcels into cells.
You can also grant Lots to other players -- just like the World Owner granted a province to you. (In fact, we use the same system at both the micro and macro level!)
A 1x1 parcel of land is divided into many lots. On this grid of lots, some areas will be marked as “open” and others will be marked as “blocked” (meaning that you cannot place buildings there).
 

How do I drop buildings and props on my parcels?
This works the same way as dropping parcels on the World grid.
Each building or prop has a footprint in Lots. (again, think of these like Tetris pieces!)
A lot owner can place buildings and push them around to find the “right fit”. Buildings can go anywhere within the designated build area(s) of the parcel, so long as the footprint of each building is clear of other structures.

 
Are the buildings locked into pre-determined places?
No – the lots that are designated as “building areas” within each parcel are typically grouped together, to allow you to slide your buildings around. Generally, the building areas will be obvious… you can’t drop a building on top of a lake, or over the edge of a cliff.
 

What do these buildings do?
Buildings serve many purposes. They can…
Hold Artifacts and Relics (see the Artifacts and Relics FAQ for more information),
Act as crafting stations for crafting new goods,
Provide marketplaces (i.e. house player-run NPC vendors to sell crafted and collected goods),
Hold trainer thralls (who work in much the same manner as relics, providing buffs to types of passive training speeds)
Act as personal housing and social hubs
…and other services, as we think of them.
 

Can other people visit by Kingdom?
Yes, though which players can visit is a decision left up to the Monarch (owner) of that Kingdom. “Public” worlds are open to the public, meaning that anyone can visit them and trade. “Private” worlds are not open to the public. Only land owners (nobles, vassals and tenants) of the Kingdom can enter the World.
 

Can I open (or close) my Kingdom?
As the Monarch, you can change your Kingdom to be “public” or “private” any time you like.
 

Why would I make my Kingdom “public”?
Players will be able to visit those Eternal Kingdoms that are public. Players who want to create marketplace (or social hub) will want to set their Kingdom to public and create one or more attractive, easy to navigate marketplaces in that Kingdom to attract other players.


What can players do in my Kingdom?
As the Monarch, you control the administration of your Kingdom. You can set the PvP rules, collect taxes, and grant provinces to other players, making them nobles of your Kingdom. You can collect taxes in whatever form you want to from your Nobles, be it resources or materials! Hey, it’s good to be the Monarch!
As a Noble, you can grant Lots to other players, making them vassals of the Kingdom and allowing them to place buildings on your land.
As a Vassal, you can erect buildings on your Lots, and grant access to these buildings to other players as tenants.
As a Tenant, you can place relics and thralls in the buildings you have access to, using these buildings as crafting stations and market/vendor locations.
(And remember, these permissions are hierarchical in nature – a Monarch can naturally do everything that his or her subjects can do!)
 

Can I control the layout of my Kingdom?
Yes. Parcels fit together like Tetris pieces. You can arrange them however you like -- as long as the pieces fit together. You can even pick up and move the pieces, if you don’t like where they are placed.
 

What if that Guild Leader stops playing?
If the guild leader quits, you can always remove your parcels (and any buildings/improvements) and put them in a different Kingdom.

 
Can I own a house but share Admin rights?
Yes, you may add another player to the Admin list of your building making them a Tenant of the structure. This will also add them to that Kingdom’s fealty tree, allowing them to log in even if the Kingdom is set to “private.”

 
Can I own land or be a tenant on multiple different Kingdoms?
Yes, you can – but you should make sure you have the appropriate amount of land to place for the provinces you are granted. No monarch is going to want to grant provinces to Nobles who can’t put that space to good use!
 

Is there an upkeep cost on the land or buildings?
Yes. You will be required to pay taxes and maintenance to the system for the structures and land – unless you have a tax free parcel, in which case the land has no upkeep cost.
If your taxes fall into arrears, the structures on the land will begin to degrade. Once the buildings have fully degraded, they won’t disappear – you can still repair them – but the land will fall back to its “wild” state and the buildings decay to the point they are removed from the world and placed into the owner’s inventory. They will not be usable until the taxes are repaid.
 

If I invest in parcels or buildings and drop them on a World, are they locked there?  What if I change my mind and want to leave?
If you decide to leave a world – or, if you are ejected from a World by the players above you in the fealty chain -- all of your structures (and any relics or thralls placed in them) will be moved into your account bank. Parcels and Buildings can be moved easily from your account bank into a new Kingdom, once you find one.   



Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Threash on March 20, 2015, 12:44:26 PM
I still don't understand why everyone is not going to stick to their own kingdom rather than go be someone's tenant or vassal.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Merusk on March 20, 2015, 01:17:13 PM
I still don't understand why everyone is not going to stick to their own kingdom rather than go be someone's tenant or vassal.

Yeah, exactly my thought.  I suppose as a guild leader (since they have a specific "what if the GL quits" question)  you can force your people to play on your land vs. theirs. Just seems like a tool to generate strife at that point and that's ultimately not a good thing.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Malakili on March 20, 2015, 01:40:52 PM
I still don't understand why everyone is not going to stick to their own kingdom rather than go be someone's tenant or vassal.

Because just mulling around your own area is boring compared to being part of a larger community/Kingdom where there is lots going on?  I don't really have a sense of everything that is going to be in this game, so I'm not 100% sure, but it seems like these Eternal Kingdoms server as everything from player housing on the one extreme, to their own little MMO servers on the other.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: EWSpider on March 20, 2015, 02:03:29 PM
I still don't understand why everyone is not going to stick to their own kingdom rather than go be someone's tenant or vassal.

Would you rather sell your wares in some dark back alley that no one traverses or the center of a bustling marketplace?


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Threash on March 20, 2015, 02:04:12 PM
Eh, would you rather be king of your own realm or somebodies bitch?


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: HaemishM on March 20, 2015, 03:20:15 PM
Eh, would you rather be king of your own realm or somebodies bitch?

It's a PVP game. You WILL be somebody's bitch at some point.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Draegan on March 20, 2015, 04:06:23 PM
I still don't understand why everyone is not going to stick to their own kingdom rather than go be someone's tenant or vassal.

I would imagine it has something to do with marketplaces. There isn't a global marketplace so setting up shop in someone's kingdom so you can buy and sell stuff iis what you'll want to do. I imagine that there will be some popular guild's or person's EK that has more player shops than others and that just snowballs.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: tazelbain on March 20, 2015, 04:13:55 PM
I expect EK to be nothing more than trophy room.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Draegan on March 20, 2015, 04:15:00 PM
I expect EK to be nothing more than trophy room.

They are going to be small economic hubs. The one thing that ACE doesn't have down is how the import/export rules will work. That's really the key to everything.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Tannhauser on March 20, 2015, 04:16:04 PM
I still don't understand why everyone is not going to stick to their own kingdom rather than go be someone's tenant or vassal.

I would imagine it has something to do with marketplaces. There isn't a global marketplace so setting up shop in someone's kingdom so you can buy and sell stuff iis what you'll want to do. I imagine that there will be some popular guild's or person's EK that has more player shops than others and that just snowballs.

This is my take on it too.  It's like UO where you knew what houses kept the good stuff supplied at reasonable rates so you kept coming back.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Soulflame on March 20, 2015, 04:39:15 PM
I did that for three months in UO.  Mined ore, turned out quality weapons and suits of armor, put on vendor for monies.  I finally gave up because I couldn't sustain the level of effort needed to keep it going.  Sold quite a bit too.

I did keep crafting gear for myself.

And I started initially because the first X vendors I found stopped selling, in succession.  Usually three to six months after I found them.  And the search wasn't easy, either.  It took hours, over a few days, of wandering from house to house, checking each vendor.  I finally got mad enough to level up a craftsman, because the sheer inconvenience of looking was too much.

Not that the UO marketplace search was that good, when they implemented it.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: ezrast on March 21, 2015, 09:02:10 AM
It would make sense for EK to host some Farmville stuff, to give players a bit of persistent personal progression and help retain "casuals". Give players a gold star for watering their rhododendrons every day and have campaign areas drop +2 fertilizer even when you lose, to entice the sheep to play with the wolves.

It doesn't sound like there will be any real benefit for most players to be "king of their own realm" rather than a vassal. If you've got n tiles of land you've got n tiles of land, and unless you're part of the 0.1% of players whose plots are exciting enough for other players to hang out or PvP in, being able to make the rules doesn't really matter. All being a vassal does is make it easier to show off your stuff to your guildies.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Tannhauser on March 21, 2015, 09:09:43 AM
It might be in the notes, but maybe being a vassal gets you farming bonuses or other benefits from your lord.  I would like it if:
1.  I have a little nice castle and fields that I can do piddly daily quests in.  NO invasions unless I 'unlock' the fief for some benefit.
2.  Then I can sneak onto the battlefield and harvest a quick node or two (the watering hole scenario) and get back without being ganked.
3.  Then my liege posts quests that offer serious risk/reward quests.

You get the idea.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Rendakor on March 21, 2015, 04:20:01 PM
The EKs will matter if the campaigns that let you bring in pre-made gear are popular. If everyone only plays in the FFA, full loot, no bringing gear in worlds then there's no point in having a fancy crafting paradise EK because the shit you make there means fuckall.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Draegan on March 21, 2015, 05:55:33 PM
I basically look at EKs as wow garrisons you can build.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Falconeer on March 24, 2015, 10:00:52 AM
1.4 Million made. 48 hours to go and Minotaurs announced as the next goal, together with some Religious war mode that has 12 factions representing 12 gods and goddesses battling each other.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K9YFn1bkHik


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Teleku on March 24, 2015, 10:22:01 AM
Same reason lots of corps in eve join a big alliance as a tenant rather not than try to hold their own space.  It's just way less hassle, and your get to be part of a bigger organization that gives you a lot more options. Even if you have to pay rent.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Merusk on March 24, 2015, 10:56:21 AM
I get you're drooling over this but that was weak defense. 

In Eve the reality is you join or be crushed, not that it's "way less hassle."  Not so here in the EK.  There has to be more bonus to joining another kingdom - particularly when you have your own.

Perhaps they have some systems of bonuses/ rewards for joining other kingdoms that isn't fleshed-out or detailed. Maybe you can only access certain Eternal Kingdoms from the other 'rings' so the limitation is geographic/ logistics based.  That might work.

Telling me "go here and pay rent because *access*" is weaksauce in a virtual environment where realm-hopping outside of any designed limitations is trivial. 

You've got to enforce limitations at the design level so it's not: Right now I'm in Teleku's EK.. *click/ load* now I'm in Falconeer's where I can hunt down more deals.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Teleku on March 24, 2015, 11:05:35 AM
You are right, we don't know how it's all going to play out.  I'm assuming the same PvP motivations that drive people in eve and every other PvP game to join larger organizations will still be in play.  Trying not to be 'crushed' using your own limited resources counts as more hassle.  :p


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Draegan on March 24, 2015, 11:40:32 AM
I get you're drooling over this but that was weak defense.  

In Eve the reality is you join or be crushed, not that it's "way less hassle."  Not so here in the EK.  There has to be more bonus to joining another kingdom - particularly when you have your own.

Perhaps they have some systems of bonuses/ rewards for joining other kingdoms that isn't fleshed-out or detailed. Maybe you can only access certain Eternal Kingdoms from the other 'rings' so the limitation is geographic/ logistics based.  That might work.

Telling me "go here and pay rent because *access*" is weaksauce in a virtual environment where realm-hopping outside of any designed limitations is trivial.  

You've got to enforce limitations at the design level so it's not: Right now I'm in Teleku's EK.. *click/ load* now I'm in Falconeer's where I can hunt down more deals.

Joining EK reasons:
1) More popular, higher population, better chance to find good materials and sell your own. Or in other words: Location Location Location.
2) Guilds and players can earn artifacts and relics. You can only equip 3 of them (combination of both, not 3 of each), and they give bonuses to crafting and stuff. You can join an EK with access to awesome crafting bonuses.

Just to elaborate on location. You can hop to whomever's EK you want supposedly (they haven't mentioned any limitations so I'm assuming that). There are no global auction houses so you have to go where the people are hanging out. There are going to be places that just pop up that have higher concentrations of people. It'll snowball and create it's own community that way. Should be interesting to watch. I believe they mentioned that you can set up a player shop to sell stuff. Do you want to set it up in your own lonely world or pay rent in someone's really popular EK where you might make a sale?


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Bzalthek on March 25, 2015, 02:18:00 AM
Telling me "go here and pay rent because *access*" is weaksauce in a virtual environment where realm-hopping outside of any designed limitations is trivial. 

You've got to enforce limitations at the design level so it's not: Right now I'm in Teleku's EK.. *click/ load* now I'm in Falconeer's where I can hunt down more deals.

Considering there's a lot we don't know, everything should be taken with a grain of salt, but there is usually incentive to be "someone's bitch".  Access is nothing to be sneezed at.  If there is no Auction House it's not just a *click/load* process.  Do you want to spend the afternoon *click/load* a thousand times to get that great deal, or are you going to Duke Pyreton's EK?  Lord Pyreton plays a LOT, and he's talked all kinds of crafters into his emporium.  If you need it there's probably a crafter there selling it. 

Or if you're trying to sell your shit, you can lone wolf it, sure.  You have your own little fiefdome set up that nobody knows about and nobody is willing to go there except those guys who get off on finding great deals.  You are essentially the out of the way merchants in EQ people scoured looking for crap in their sell inventories which people sold off not wanting to price check and sell in EC tunnel  (That tunnel being an argument unto itself).  Lord Pyreton, however, has the lowest taxes and a bustling player visitation rate.  You are sure to sell your shit in his EK.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Paelos on March 25, 2015, 08:03:34 AM
The endless spamming to visit EK's is going to be annoying.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Hutch on March 25, 2015, 08:19:05 AM
The kickstarter ends tomorrow. They funded, obviously, and are trending towards $1.5 million.

Which is probably closer to what they were hoping for  :why_so_serious:

(http://www.kicktraq.com/projects/crowfall/crowfall-throne-war-pc-mmo/minichart.png) (http://www.kicktraq.com/projects/crowfall/crowfall-throne-war-pc-mmo/)


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Threash on March 25, 2015, 08:43:59 AM
I was hoping they made it to the combat pet goal, but it seems unlikely.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Draegan on March 25, 2015, 08:48:29 AM
I'm sure every single goal is going to be made, just not at release. Were they really not going to have mounts ever?


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Threash on March 25, 2015, 10:20:04 AM
I'm sure every single goal is going to be made, just not at release. Were they really not going to have mounts ever?

Well they said the maps had to be designed from the ground up with mounts/caravans in mind or not at all, so yeah that was basically a now or never thing.  Everything else was probably going to show up eventually, depending on how the game does.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Tmon on March 25, 2015, 11:08:53 AM
I'm sure every single goal is going to be made, just not at release. Were they really not going to have mounts ever?

Well they said the maps had to be designed from the ground up with mounts/caravans in mind or not at all, so yeah that was basically a now or never thing.  Everything else was probably going to show up eventually, depending on how the game does.

I suspect they'll eventually find a way to include them if there is money in it.  They'll probably release an expansion with new worlds to conquer and use the old maps in No Horse, No Caravan restricted campaigns.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Paelos on March 25, 2015, 01:59:15 PM
My only question is when they plan to have a beta goal. Other than that, I am not concerned with the design decision process.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: tazelbain on March 25, 2015, 02:31:26 PM
Doesn't seem like an amount that's going to turn any VC heads.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Draegan on March 25, 2015, 03:13:24 PM
I'm sure every single goal is going to be made, just not at release. Were they really not going to have mounts ever?

Well they said the maps had to be designed from the ground up with mounts/caravans in mind or not at all, so yeah that was basically a now or never thing.  Everything else was probably going to show up eventually, depending on how the game does.

That is just some PR speak right there. Don't buy into that.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: tazelbain on March 25, 2015, 03:22:16 PM
The procedurally generated maps have designed? Sounds like nonsense.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Threash on March 25, 2015, 03:49:38 PM
It was more like the algorithm to design them had to take into account whether mounts were a thing or not, i guess.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Falconeer on March 26, 2015, 03:45:09 AM
1.725.000 with four hours to go (zero, when y'all will wake up).

Not bad. Especially the last few days. Yesterday, with 172k raised, has been their second highest day of the whole campaign. Everything that could be unlocked has been unlocked. Including the ridiculous VR stuff which was a very stupid thing to promise to begin with.

Campaign over. Funded at 1.766.000


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Paelos on March 26, 2015, 11:20:29 AM
Now we get to see if they can pull anything together before we all stop caring.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Malakili on March 26, 2015, 11:40:32 AM
On the other hand, the good thing about not caring is that if it does turn out to be good then you can just buy it. 


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Paelos on March 26, 2015, 01:08:44 PM
I think the main purpose of contributing early in this thing would be the discounting VIP access, lower price, and VIP access for the gamble.

Which I can understand if you've got an idea on a product. This seems more fleshed out than most with a deliverable idea. Not all their ideas are deliverable and I still think they need more money.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Sophismata on March 26, 2015, 02:48:19 PM
They could start selling mounts, or furniture for your digital house, at $1000 a pop to cover costs…


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Paelos on March 26, 2015, 03:15:40 PM
They could start selling mounts, or furniture for your digital house, at $1000 a pop to cover costs…

Digital castles. This one has built in wenches.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Draegan on March 26, 2015, 07:20:14 PM
I never matched up names, but the guy who help design the combat system IN DCUO is on this project. That bodes well imo. DCUO had really great combat.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Paelos on March 27, 2015, 07:47:59 AM
One of the reasons I'm interested in this is the crafting and the idea of voxel environments. If they have non-Wow combat that functions well for peeveepee I'll probably play it for several years.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Malakili on March 27, 2015, 08:08:56 AM
One of the reasons I'm interested in this is the crafting and the idea of voxel environments. If they have non-Wow combat that functions well for peeveepee I'll probably play it for several years.

I sort of agree in principle, but every time I say this about an MMO I play it for 1-3 months then quit.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Draegan on March 27, 2015, 09:30:27 AM
The combat should have the mobility of Wildstar but the combat styles of TERA. When I say TERA I mean animation locks/breaks, full body animations not two seperate animation points like in WOW etc. They tickled all my points of interest with that.



Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Paelos on March 27, 2015, 12:52:26 PM
Doing TERA combat and ignoring everything else about that game is a solid design choice.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Draegan on March 27, 2015, 01:08:27 PM
Agreed, and you can quote the devs as to agreeing with that.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Lantyssa on March 27, 2015, 01:58:26 PM
Yeah, the combat in DCUO was good.  I wish the rest of the game was as fun.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Kageru on March 27, 2015, 05:42:14 PM

DCUO was "mash attack until bored" according to my memory... but I guess it makes sense for a PvP game to have a very active combat system.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Lantyssa on March 28, 2015, 01:54:45 AM
I don't know about initially.  When I played it had a neat combo system, and the styles were pretty different.  Staff fighting felt bad-ass and punching someone wasn't little hits but more of giving a beat-down.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Muzadi on April 01, 2015, 08:57:00 PM
Not to be a bastard, but checking out their team they have 15+ developers.  Being generous and rounding up to $2 million for their Kickstarter, being even more generous and say they have free/donated facilities and infrastructure, and even at Austin, Texas salaries you're looking at a burn rate of at least $150,000 a month, assuming you're being very generous with equity (which in fairness, for a project like this could well be feasible).

So, without additional financing that gives you a year of development.  For something this ambitious, I can't see it being done in anything short of three years...probably more like twice that.

My guess from this is that they must be hoping to use the Kickstarter to get enough progress done to convince investors to drop the rest of the money they need.

I don't envy them that task.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Threash on April 01, 2015, 09:17:35 PM
They started off with something like 2.7 million before the kickstarter according to them.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Muzadi on April 01, 2015, 10:02:50 PM
They started off with something like 2.7 million before the kickstarter according to them.

So...maybe.  If absolutely nothing goes wrong during development.

I'm a big fan of sandboxes and wish there were more like it, so even though I don't entirely agree with all of their decisions, I do genuinely hope they come up with even a fraction of what they're shooting for.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Paelos on April 02, 2015, 01:30:09 PM
I did similar estimates and I think their drop dead number to get it out the door is about $4M. They've raised supposedly about $4M that we know of. So I think they'll get it done, but that won't stop them from taking in more money if they can get equity. I doubt they'd do a big effort in the ways of groupfunding again though.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Threash on April 02, 2015, 02:02:17 PM
They've also mentioned international distribution rights would be used as another way to drum up more money i believe.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Muzadi on April 02, 2015, 02:19:17 PM
I did similar estimates and I think their drop dead number to get it out the door is about $4M. They've raised supposedly about $4M that we know of. So I think they'll get it done, but that won't stop them from taking in more money if they can get equity. I doubt they'd do a big effort in the ways of groupfunding again though.

I'm going to be hopeful, but it still sounds really optimistic.  That's way below any MMO I've heard of being made, even ones with pre-existing MMORPG engines.  The lowest I've heard of a mainstream MMORPG being made for is about $8 million, and that was considered insanely cheap.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Segoris on April 02, 2015, 03:57:45 PM
I doubt they'd do a big effort in the ways of groupfunding again though.

While not a big effort, they did do something smart by following Camelot Unchained's lead (possibly others, but CU is the first I saw do it) and opening pledges on their website to keep kickstarter pledges going. So in addition to the $4mil they have already, they've made $30k on day one. That's not bad at all but not likely to sustain.

For comparison, Camelot Unchained made $1mil in 1.5-2 years by continuing pledges on their site.



Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Paelos on April 02, 2015, 04:35:54 PM
And I think they might sell some cosmetic things to follow in Chris Roberts footsteps as much as I loathe the idea, but I think the temptation to sell castles or whatever up front will prove too much if the money gets short.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Segoris on April 02, 2015, 05:30:13 PM
They mentioned they're going to sell unbundled pledge items, which I like.

I think they can do better than selling castles though. They could just sell tilesets for $25 for eternal kingdoms, that would be a cosmetic money machine for them. Then we can see all the oh-so original players named xxDaenerysxx of Else's Ice Castle 12352!


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Triforcer on April 02, 2015, 07:32:54 PM
I did similar estimates and I think their drop dead number to get it out the door is about $4M. They've raised supposedly about $4M that we know of. So I think they'll get it done, but that won't stop them from taking in more money if they can get equity. I doubt they'd do a big effort in the ways of groupfunding again though.

I'm going to be hopeful, but it still sounds really optimistic.  That's way below any MMO I've heard of being made, even ones with pre-existing MMORPG engines.  The lowest I've heard of a mainstream MMORPG being made for is about $8 million, and that was considered insanely cheap.

Agreed, but recall this is an MMO with zero quests, zero raids, and auto generated worlds.  You do not need 5 plus years to get that kind of product out the door.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Threash on April 02, 2015, 07:34:22 PM
Right, they are creating systems not content.  This is their main advantage.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Muzadi on April 04, 2015, 01:44:17 AM
Right, they are creating systems not content.  This is their main advantage.

Having done both systems and content design, I'd say that's actually their biggest risk.

In my experience, building content is far more predictable in figuring out how long it is going to take to make. Building systems, on the other hand, requires extremely difficult to predict degrees of iteration.

Content design is building a good car. Systems design is figuring out HOW to build a good car.

On my teams, for content I have always tried to shoot for at least 33-50% of the total content development time to be spent on iteration. On systems, except for the simplest features, it's almost always more like 66-75% of the total development time. Sometimes more.

Don't get me wrong, I think systems-based games are, with some exceptions, generally a better long-term approach for MMORPGs for a whole lot of reasons, but they certainly aren't faster to develop, not unless you are just trying to slop something onto the plate and not iterate at all on it - and these guys are clearly passionate about what they're trying to do and definitely don't fall into that category.

I want them to succeed. This is the kind of game I'd love to see more of - the industry desperately needs more high player agency sandbox games. But the scope they're shooting for combined with the resources they've announced seem very optimistic on their part. Perhaps they have some unannounced sources of financing - that would make me considerably more bullish.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Segoris on April 04, 2015, 03:47:33 AM

I agree with what you're saying, but when players basically are the content I think the systems are more important. Sure, for more traditional themepark and pve based games then content is absolutely more important than the systems. But for a pvp game I think it's different. Especially when a simple change of a campaign ruleset can create between a week and a year of content for X number of players or when creating a new class or a new crafted item/weapon can do so much as changing an established meta.

I do agree in your concerns of their budget, but time will tell if they can squeeze enough out of what they have and earn enough additional funding to finish what they are attempting.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Draegan on April 04, 2015, 10:12:44 AM
The vowel farm systems they have licensed, as far as I know, have many years of iteration in generating procedural content and maps. I've seen a ton of tech demos in older unity engines.

On top of that, the very nature of campaigns is of itself an iterative process that let's them fine tune things as the game matures.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Threash on April 04, 2015, 11:04:59 AM
The game is also going to be very bare bones, i was actually surprised that combat pets weren't even going to be a thing until a very late stretch goal.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Falconeer on April 10, 2015, 07:56:15 PM
Shadowbane memories (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dxcJQljijLg).


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: KallDrexx on April 10, 2015, 10:36:33 PM
The game is also going to be very bare bones, i was actually surprised that combat pets weren't even going to be a thing until a very late stretch goal.

Combat pets are extremely difficult to do right.  Last I saw Guild Wars 2 still had retarded dumb as brick pets that they couldn't get the AI working for, and that game actually has profits to back it.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Samwise on April 11, 2015, 02:07:31 PM
not unless you are just trying to slop something onto the plate and not iterate at all on it - and these guys are clearly passionate about what they're trying to do and definitely don't fall into that category.

Based on how they talk when they're trying to stir up crowdfunding, sure, but have you played their resumes?   :awesome_for_real:


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Lantyssa on April 12, 2015, 10:20:03 AM
Combat pets are extremely difficult to do right.  Last I saw Guild Wars 2 still had retarded dumb as brick pets that they couldn't get the AI working for, and that game actually has profits to back it.
That's because they've pretty much ignored Rangers.  For the longest time the dev responsible insisted they were fine, or that changes were coming, or just ignored people.  I don't remember which it's been so long.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Draegan on April 14, 2015, 10:56:23 AM
not unless you are just trying to slop something onto the plate and not iterate at all on it - and these guys are clearly passionate about what they're trying to do and definitely don't fall into that category.

Based on how they talk when they're trying to stir up crowdfunding, sure, but have you played their resumes?   :awesome_for_real:

Aren't Pirates and Wizard 101 games popular and decent games for the target audience? My oldest kid is 2 years old so I have no idea.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: kaid on April 14, 2015, 11:32:24 AM
The game is also going to be very bare bones, i was actually surprised that combat pets weren't even going to be a thing until a very late stretch goal.

Combat pets are extremely difficult to do right.  Last I saw Guild Wars 2 still had retarded dumb as brick pets that they couldn't get the AI working for, and that game actually has profits to back it.

Gah what really killed me with combat pets in GW2 is they just refused to see the obvious in a game all about avoiding the bad things on the ground a dumb pet who could not do that had to be either highly resistant or nearly immune to those ground effects. There were so many dungeons on my ranger that you simply could not use the pet as the zones of doom were so deadly the pet simply could not survive it long enough to do any damage.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Mandella on April 14, 2015, 01:57:08 PM
The game is also going to be very bare bones, i was actually surprised that combat pets weren't even going to be a thing until a very late stretch goal.

Combat pets are extremely difficult to do right.  Last I saw Guild Wars 2 still had retarded dumb as brick pets that they couldn't get the AI working for, and that game actually has profits to back it.

Gah what really killed me with combat pets in GW2 is they just refused to see the obvious in a game all about avoiding the bad things on the ground a dumb pet who could not do that had to be either highly resistant or nearly immune to those ground effects. There were so many dungeons on my ranger that you simply could not use the pet as the zones of doom were so deadly the pet simply could not survive it long enough to do any damage.

Apparently pathing is still hard. IIRC Turbine just gave it up and made all the pets immune to ground effects in LOTRO...


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: drogg on April 15, 2015, 04:55:26 PM
here's gordon walton's breezy finance take, for paelo's et. al:
(spoilered for verbosity)



Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: drogg on April 15, 2015, 04:58:20 PM
also the future of npcs:

http://t.co/fM423I2CqH


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: LC on April 15, 2015, 05:17:01 PM
One question pops up in my head when I think of this game. How many wipes until players lose interest in a one trick pony?


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Triforcer on April 15, 2015, 08:15:20 PM
One question pops up in my head when I think of this game. How many wipes until players lose interest in a one trick pony?

PvE zones last a few hours each, but ganking miners is forever.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Draegan on April 16, 2015, 12:36:11 AM
One question pops up in my head when I think of this game. How many wipes until players lose interest in a one trick pony?

Couldn't the same thing be said about any MOBA or FPS?


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: LC on April 16, 2015, 05:08:42 AM
One question pops up in my head when I think of this game. How many wipes until players lose interest in a one trick pony?

PvE zones last a few hours each, but ganking miners is forever.

Problem is that games like this don't attract anyone but pvpers since that's all it really offers. So it loses that special feeling.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: LC on April 16, 2015, 05:11:28 AM

Couldn't the same thing be said about any MOBA or FPS?

How much time is invested in a moba or fps when the game ends?


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Draegan on April 16, 2015, 08:20:39 AM
I'm assuming you don't understand the draw for this kind of game. It's almost like a PVP version of a D&D campaign. Your character progression carries over, maybe some gear if you can save it, but the story always changes.

That's my best bad analogy.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Falconeer on April 16, 2015, 09:06:05 AM
PvPers don't play for the content. They play for the interactions. Interestingly, this is true not only for MMORPGs, but for any game that pits two or more humans against each other. Take games like chess, or sports. Repetition is a non-issue, as people who enjoy confronting other humans are into that way before anything else. Choosing one game over another is more a matter of choosing your weapons and community more than anything. That's why as Draegan pointed out MOBA and FPS. People have been playing these games for ages and investing years into them WAY before achievements, unlocks and character levels ever made their way into it.

Now, if you consider for a moment that Crowfall design is clearly meant to be persistent from the ground up, with only campaigns being temporary (as they are, in real wars), and with a huge focus on Diplomacy (as it was in Shadowbane and it is in EVE), I don't see the "one trick pony" argument having any validity.


So far the design of this game is surprisingly solid. The real, huge, make-it-or-break-it problem of this game will be execution.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Draegan on April 16, 2015, 09:31:11 AM
I've been discussing this for weeks, but the real key to the games design is the import/export rules. This creates transition for players that are both winning and losing. The winning team/player/faction/guild (it will vary depending on campaign) will always get something, but the loser may or may not.

I likened a Crowfall Campaign to WOW and without linking other shit on here, i'll keep it brief:
1) You have the boom cycle of the beginning of the expansion. Everyone is playing. Everyone is rushing. Everyone is exploring and theorycrafting and farming etc.
2) You have the mid section of the game. Population evens out, you do your own daily activities (farming, raiding, dungeoning whatever). You play the content.
3) People get bored and drift away
4) Expansion is announced, people log back in. People prepare for the new expansion, people are excited.

In WOW this is a 2 year cycle. In Crowfall, they need to be able to do this in 3-6 months. I think they can easily achieve 1-3, but #4 is the real real hard part and it has to do with import and export. If you're on the losing end of things, or in the middle and have no hope of winning. Or maybe you were doing well in the beginning but real life forced you away and you come back 2 months later, you need motivation to keep playing at the end of the cycle.

Some people will just play for the sake of playing. Hopefully the game is fun to play mechanically and the act of fighting and killing people is motivation enough. However most people need some kind of motivation. Crowfall will have to capture that "prep" cycle of the end of the campaign. You need to be able to convey "Welp I lost this campaign, let me get ready for the next one." into their design while still sticking to their import/export methodology.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Nija on April 16, 2015, 10:12:14 AM
You can armchair it all you want, but don't you find it interesting that the most successful city builder in Shadowbane (L-C) isn't interested in Crowfall at all? Maybe it's because he's accustomed to winning, so he doesn't see the point to a resetting campaign.

Here's what I think is going to happen, if anyone cares. Everyone interested in this kind of game already knows about Crowfall and probably has some skin in the game. They will play early builds, often, and by the time the thing actually releases only a small percentage of the people who are excited about it now will actually bother to play. Different genre, but look at H1Z1.

That's the trouble with crowdfunding/early alpha access.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Threash on April 16, 2015, 10:26:01 AM
Cheating isn't success.  And I find his disinterest in the game another plus.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Paelos on April 16, 2015, 10:34:06 AM
I can tell you right now that Mount and Blade is essentially the same game every time I charge into battle. Yet I still enjoy hacking heads. Over and over.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Falconeer on April 16, 2015, 10:39:13 AM

That's the trouble with crowdfunding/early alpha access.


I agree. By the time games are "officially launched" too many players out of the already small player base already went through some different stages of unfinished-ness and burned out over what was a much incomplete product. When it arguably reaches maturity, it has already lost too many players by diluting them through the infinitely long alpha phases.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Draegan on April 16, 2015, 11:06:06 AM
You can armchair it all you want, but don't you find it interesting that the most successful city builder in Shadowbane (L-C) isn't interested in Crowfall at all? Maybe it's because he's accustomed to winning, so he doesn't see the point to a resetting campaign.



I don't find it interesting. The person who likes building permanent shit doesn't want to play a game where his shit gets reset. I wouldn't expect that person to want to play this game regardless of what game he used to play a decade ago.

I can agree with the alpha burnout. It happens a lot. The games it has happened in, that I've personally played and witnessed, also have been games that weren't fun anyway. It's not a long shot to guess that it'll happen with Crowfall. I hope it doesn't but I wouldn't be surprised if does.

In any case, my theory isn't really arm chair dev, I'm just syaing they need to figure out a way to keep people engaged all the way to the end somehow. Especially for those people who aren't catassing or winning a lot. One way is Paelos' method. Just make the game itself fun to play mechanically.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Draegan on April 16, 2015, 11:08:42 AM
nm


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Nija on April 16, 2015, 01:29:59 PM
Well, you guys are playing the forums. Playing the hype. Playing it all too early.

It's frustrating to watch because you know better than to get involved like this.

With as much time people are spent reading into every single word about this thing, there will actually be pre-pre-alpha burnout. That'll be new and novel, at least.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Draegan on April 16, 2015, 03:17:55 PM
Well, you guys are playing the forums. Playing the hype. Playing it all too early.

It's frustrating to watch because you know better than to get involved like this.

With as much time people are spent reading into every single word about this thing, there will actually be pre-pre-alpha burnout. That'll be new and novel, at least.

The hype cycle is the best part about these games.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Triforcer on April 16, 2015, 07:57:00 PM
You can upgrade pledges now on the website.  What is interesting is if you kickstarted, you can upgrade to a higher KS package, even if you put in only five dollars.  Non-KS can only upgrade a pledge to the non-KS tiers.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: LC on April 17, 2015, 12:00:52 AM
Shadowbane beta wiped/reset at least 5 times after I was invited. Each time more and more people got tired of the grind to rebuild, and stopped playing. When release rolled around everyone came back, but even with a different map the interest wasn't there. There was a been there and done that feeling in our alliance. We wiped the major players on the server, and then most of us left the game. Nobody looked back.

It really depends on how much fun the "building phase" of their game is. If it's just a grind for materials, forget it, the game will be dead after a few resets.

Don't get too excited Threash. I will probably get dragged into the game by friends. The guys responsible for most of the "cheating" quit gaming years ago. I hear from them maybe once or twice a year.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: ezrast on April 17, 2015, 01:40:08 AM
At the same time, the resetting campaign can also mean a really low barrier to re-entry for players who do come back. You can drift away for six months and then jump back in to a new campaign without having to spend weeks playing catch-up. Much like how Diablo 3's seasons or Path of Exile's leagues are easier to break into than Marvel Heroes' or Warframe's constantly-mutating (bloated) game systems.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: LC on April 17, 2015, 05:02:02 AM
At the same time, the resetting campaign can also mean a really low barrier to re-entry for players who do come back. You can drift away for six months and then jump back in to a new campaign without having to spend weeks playing catch-up. Much like how Diablo 3's seasons or Path of Exile's leagues are easier to break into than Marvel Heroes' or Warframe's constantly-mutating (bloated) game systems.

That's true and it might find it's niche. I don't think it will be with the traditional mmo audience though.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Bzalthek on April 17, 2015, 10:16:54 AM
That's probably a good thing.  The traditional mmo audience is largely the worst thing about mmos these days.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Falconeer on April 30, 2015, 06:01:06 PM
New huge FAQ about Eternal Kingdoms. (http://crowfall.com/#/faq/5542873718859c484f5af678) I'll put it under the spoiler tag, or you can just watch the official video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HVQUNaSlT_o



Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Hawkbit on May 01, 2015, 12:59:39 AM
I can't help but see some top-level parallels to Xuri's tavern game with the way the kingdoms work. I'm interested.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Triforcer on May 01, 2015, 08:36:18 AM
It still all translates as "instanced housing". Not sure pvpers will really be motivated to amass loot to craft new end tables.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Paelos on May 01, 2015, 08:58:52 AM
So there will be a search function of some kind, which means that bigger kingdoms get priority. That explains why people would want to join a kingdom.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Merusk on May 01, 2015, 09:02:32 AM
It still all translates as "instanced housing". Not sure pvpers will really be motivated to amass loot to craft new end tables.

Whatever 'carebears' the game attracts will. They'll likely never leave the eternal kingdoms and work on being robber barons backed by other people's PVP power.  I just don't see a reason - other than the current unknown time factor - for those PVP folks to bother with letting them do so instead of running their own kingdom.

So there will be a search function of some kind, which means that bigger kingdoms get priority. That explains why people would want to join a kingdom.

Yep.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Draegan on May 01, 2015, 09:19:49 AM
It's really big instanced housing though.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Paelos on May 01, 2015, 12:53:33 PM
And markets. That's the key. If it's just housing nobody cares, if it's the point of sale and trade? Everyone cares.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Threash on May 01, 2015, 02:15:15 PM
Not when you can't actually use what you buy in campaigns.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Malakili on May 01, 2015, 02:30:22 PM
Not when you can't actually use what you buy in campaigns.

That assumes people will only care about campaigns.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: tazelbain on May 01, 2015, 02:49:31 PM
So dumb...

Dear Killer, thanks for all your hard work killing people. Here have some items that are completely irrelevant to killing more people. You can place them in a paper kingdom that is irrelevant to killing people. Or you trade with other players to help expand your paper kingdom. Please enjoy all this not killing people content.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Malakili on May 01, 2015, 03:10:37 PM
So dumb...

Dear Killer, thanks for all your hard work killing people. Here have some items that are completely irrelevant to killing more people. You can place them in a paper kingdom that is irrelevant to killing people. Or you trade with other players to help expand your paper kingdom. Please enjoy all this not killing people content.

The campaigns aren't the whole thing.  That concentric circles diagram explains it, but there are different rulesets with different rules for importing/exporting gear.  I think the 3 faction PvP circle, for example, allows you to import gear.  So if you prefer that style as a killer you are golden for participating in the Eternal Kingdoms economy.  I don't think this is nearly as bad as you seem to think it is.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Paelos on May 01, 2015, 03:20:28 PM
So dumb...

Dear Killer, thanks for all your hard work killing people. Here have some items that are completely irrelevant to killing more people. You can place them in a paper kingdom that is irrelevant to killing people. Or you trade with other players to help expand your paper kingdom. Please enjoy all this not killing people content.

Right because Killers can't enjoy other things. They are only Killers.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Bzalthek on May 01, 2015, 04:16:10 PM
I think that's a roundabout way for tazelbain to confess to being a serial killer. 


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Torinak on May 01, 2015, 05:41:49 PM
So dumb...

Dear Killer, thanks for all your hard work killing people. Here have some items that are completely irrelevant to killing more people. You can place them in a paper kingdom that is irrelevant to killing people. Or you trade with other players to help expand your paper kingdom. Please enjoy all this not killing people content.

Right because Killers can't enjoy other things. They are only Killers.

Well, they can complain about the carebears having any kind of "safe space" where they can't be ganked with impunity, most likely worded as there not being enough incentives for the sheepnon-PvP-inclined to spend significant time in the PvP areas. The carebears will complain about ever having to leave their gank-free zones, and will quit. The killers will complain about having to spend time not PKing (e.g., grinding resources, "going shopping"), and as the carebears quit, about not having enough targets. Cue death spiral.

Wait, didn't this happen in some other game?


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Falconeer on May 01, 2015, 07:30:57 PM
Campaign modules FAQ:


Quote
FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS | CAMPAIGN MODULES


1. WHAT DETERMINES THE RULES OF A CAMPAIGN?

There are many different options that have to be defined in order to determine the rules in each Campaign. The idea is that, at any time, there will be MANY Campaigns running in each of the “World Bands”, with new Campaigns constantly being brought online as old Campaigns come to an end. (The exact number of concurrent Campaigns will obviously depend on the size of our player population!)

When it comes to changes that can be made to the Campaigns, you can think of them as being broken into TWO major categories: ATTRIBUTES and MODULES.

Campaign Attributes:

Attributes are basically configuration settings.

There is a baseline set of Campaign rules that are common across all Campaigns. These attributes MUST be set in order to run a Campaign. Think of these as the simple (but highly impactful!) settings that are “dialed in” at the beginning of each Campaign. This includes settings like:

●        Map Size: How large is the world?

●        Duration: How long does each season last?  How long does the entire Campaign last?  What triggers the end of the Campaign?

●        Import/Export Rules: How much stuff can be brought in and out of the world, and when?

●        Magic Level: How powerful are the different types of magic?

●        Archetype Restrictions: Is this Campaign restricted to only certain archetypes?

●        Resource Scarcity: What is the population of resources available on this world, by type (common, uncommon, rare?)

●        Death Penalties: When a player dies, do their items decay?  If so, how much?  What are the looting rules on death?

Design Modules:

Modules are more complicated, self-contained rulesets.  These are more than just changes to the baseline configuration variables; they are “supplemental systems and content” that can be layered on top of the base Campaign rules to augment (or completely replace) existing systems.

(If you are an old-school tabletop gamer, think of these as supplemental rulesets, like the “Unearthed Arcana” rulebook for AD&D.  You can play the base game without them but, when included, they add additional rules and systems to make the game more interesting. You could also think of them as Game Mods, but it’s not a perfect comparison, as these are being created by ACE not by the player community.)

For example, in the future we could create modules that…

 -          Change the Siege rules (We’ve hinted at this already, with the announcement of the BaneCircle stretch goal!)

-          Add a new type of caravan -- like aerial transportation (Picture WoW-style gryphon rides, only with mounts that can be knocked out of the sky with projectiles!)

-          Add a “divine summoning” system, where a team can perform a complicated ritual to summon one of the Gods to wreak havoc on a Campaign world

…these systems could be added as supplemental Modules, overriding or augmenting the existing game rules in unique and crazy ways.

These modules can be used in any of the “World Bands” (i.e. God’s Reach, Dregs, etc.), though we expect that, in practice, they will often be restricted to one or two – as most of the ones we are thinking of are meant to augment a particular type of game experience.   

Modules allow us to make vastly different play experiences, even within Campaigns of the same type and will allows players to pick Campaigns that further suit their playstyle.

This system also allows our design team to take some risks and try out some ideas that would never be possible in a traditional MMO.  Settings that work (and are fun!) can be repeated, and ones that are not as much fun can be retired.


2. BETWEEN ATTRIBUTES AND MODULES, THAT’S A LOT OF OPTIONS! ARE THERE DEFAULT CAMPAIGN SETTINGS?

Absolutely!  This is what the “World Bands” are for. Generally, if you know the type of Campaign you enjoy, you can use the World Bands as a way to start your search.  The first question you should ask is, “What kind of team do I want to play on?” and start looking at Campaigns of the appropriate type.

Team selection rules will remain constant within a Band. (For example, the God’s Reach Campaigns will always use the 3-Faction Rules.)  Attributes and Modules can (and will!) change from one Campaign to the next, even within that Band.

For each Band, we will determine a default combination of Attributes (and modules) from the options available, and use that as a baseline for every Campaign in that Band.  Then we’ll vary those settings a bit for each new Campaign we create… and then we will track the popularity of that Campaign against all the others so that we adjust new Campaign settings accordingly. The idea is to figure out which combinations of Attributes and Modules are the most fun, learn from our mistakes, and use this process of trial-and-error to constantly improve the game.

Also note that these settings will be CLEARLY indicated prior to Campaign selection, so players will know what type of game they are getting into prior to joining.


3. HOW DO YOU FORESEE COMBATING QUEUE TIMES WITH SO MANY WORLD VARIABLES?

Crowfall is built using a responsive universe architecture that reacts to our playerbase. There will always be new Campaigns to join (as many Campaigns as our community supports!) From time to time, a specific combination of modifiers may not be initially available, (because there is a minimum population required to support a given World) but we will certainly give you the opportunity to “request” specific Campaigns (with a particular combination of Modules) and if enough players are interested, we are happy to host more Campaigns of that type!


4. WILL YOU BE TRYING OUT DIFFERENT ATTRIBUTES AND MODULES OVER TIME?

As long as we can continue to support the game service, yes!  We would love nothing better than to keeping adding new Attributes and trying out new Modules, as we believe this will keep the game fresh and innovative. In fact, it should make the game evolve over time, more than we have ever seen in an MMO.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Tannhauser on May 01, 2015, 09:26:08 PM
There's some good stuff in this, I'm cautiously optimistic.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: tmp on May 02, 2015, 09:19:40 AM
It still all translates as "instanced housing". Not sure pvpers will really be motivated to amass loot to craft new end tables.
Depends on the table design they can get with all that killing work. Exclusive skulls and entrails arranged in classy patterns may be quite popular with certain crowds.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Falconeer on May 05, 2015, 01:27:34 PM
Some words on combat from the Devs.

Quote
That said, the "future" list isn't the most important list. The first and most critical feature that we need to tackle is: COMBAT. Specifically, PvP combat. Combat, as a system, actually encompasses a significant amount of functionality, functionality that we absolutely MUST nail first. 

Having a solid combat experience means we have a GREAT foundation on which we can build the rest of the game. The opposite is equally true: If the combat system sucks, then the rest of the game—campaigns, kingdoms, fealty trees, etc.—won't matter because no one will care.

Milestone 1 is laser-focused on the core Combat experience: movement, targeting, physics, animations and power chains. Not the content related to these systems or the game balance, just the systems themselves and the player's ability to interact with those systems. This will likely be the first of many such combat tests because it's highly doubtful we will nail it on our first try. (Technically, our second try since we've already rebuilt most of what you saw in the Kickstarter video.)


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Paelos on May 05, 2015, 01:37:41 PM
Well they understand that much about their pvp game at least.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Triforcer on May 06, 2015, 07:09:16 AM
Yeah, in terms of saying the right things, they haven't set a foot wrong yet.  I was hoping for more 2000-era drama (devs saying that liking PVE is a mental illness, etc.) but they are all on message. 


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Paelos on May 06, 2015, 08:17:21 AM
Well if the guys that are running this are half as introspective as Raph has been with his blog posts, they've internalized a lot of the past problems with these games and can at least make the PR side work.

Whether or not the game works is a different story.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Draegan on May 06, 2015, 08:42:19 AM
Yeah, in terms of saying the right things, they haven't set a foot wrong yet.  I was hoping for more 2000-era drama (devs saying that liking PVE is a mental illness, etc.) but they are all on message.  

They haven't gone that far heh. But they have been very very strong in their message that this game is not a pve game. There won't be "tunnels designed to herd people towards big mobs for a reward". I think that goes a long way to ward off PVE players from the game int he first place.

 In any case, they have said all the right things, and I think they have the right people. I'm curious to see what Unity 5 + DX12 can do.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Tmon on May 06, 2015, 12:24:34 PM
If they deliver on this stuff and manage to have a certain amount of casual friendliness, I might end up ponying up the cost of a box/download. 


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: LC on May 07, 2015, 04:09:56 AM
Don't forget to buy stuff years in advance via the new store on their website. They have conveniently prefixed many of the items with "2015" so you will know to buy the superior "2016" versions when they are added next year.

http://crowfall.com/#/store


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Tmon on May 07, 2015, 09:28:05 AM
I think I'll be able to resist the pre-order urge for this game.  I'm not betting on it failing, but that I'll get more bang for my gaming budget by spending it on other games that I'm actively playing.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Draegan on May 07, 2015, 09:30:57 AM
Don't forget to buy stuff years in advance via the new store on their website. They have conveniently prefixed many of the items with "2015" so you will know to buy the superior "2016" versions when they are added next year.

http://crowfall.com/#/store

I didn't see any items that were prefixed with 2015. The only things they have in their store are individual items from their kickstarter bundles.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Merusk on May 07, 2015, 09:33:23 AM
I see nothing at all.. because I have to login to see the store. Nah, don't want an account on their system.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: LC on May 07, 2015, 05:56:56 PM

2015 Quarterhorse
$15*

2015 Nightmare
$30*

2015 Warhorse
$20*

Small Fort 2015

Small Castle 2015

Medium Fort 2015

Medium Castle 2015

And the list goes on. I guess those are suffixes on the buildings.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Paelos on May 07, 2015, 06:10:22 PM
If they end up making shirts I'll probably buy one  :why_so_serious:

Real shirts, not digital ones.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: tazelbain on May 07, 2015, 06:12:16 PM
They need to start selling lube.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Draegan on May 07, 2015, 06:13:23 PM
I will don't get your paranoia about having dates.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Threash on May 07, 2015, 06:29:28 PM
If you don't buy know you won't get those extra cool "2015" castle guys.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Typhon on May 07, 2015, 06:35:25 PM
What language are you two speaking?


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Malakili on May 07, 2015, 08:07:08 PM
It's a dialect of Star Citizen.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: ezrast on May 08, 2015, 03:19:06 PM
Can I get a well-taken-care of 2013 warhorse instead? The 2015 one is just going to lose value the minute I ride it off the lot.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Hutch on May 08, 2015, 03:58:14 PM
It's a dialect of Star Citizen.

 :Love_Letters:


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: tmp on May 09, 2015, 03:07:04 PM
They need to start selling lube.
That's for filthy casuals, it has clearly no place in this game.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Falconeer on June 19, 2015, 08:33:54 AM
This is the kind of Chris Roberts crap that I'd prefer not to read, especially in a MMORPG that has a 2M budget.

http://crowfall.com/#/news/combat-no-phake-physics

Quote

Each character has a variety of physics settings, such as mass and drag, which we set on an archetype-by-archetype basis for what we think would make the most sense. We use values that are comparable to what we think a human or a centaur would use, bearing in mind that our human is 2 m tall, runs at 6 m a second (12.2 mph), and can jump 1.5 m in the air in full plate armor. Quite the beast!

The chain pull, when executed, fires an invisible Raycast towards the center of his HUD reticule. Currently that Raycast is set to penetrate so even after it touches one target, the Raycast continues to the max range of the power, acquiring even more targets. (Don’t travel in straight lines to hide your numbers or you might ALL get hit by a single pull!) The Raycast applies an inverse velocity to anything it touches in the direction of the knight, be it a world object like a barrel or another player. Based on the mass of the target, and the strength of the velocity, the physics engine determines how fast the targets get launched across the ground towards the knight. (We found early on we needed to also temporarily increase the mass of the knight during this power so he doesn’t get knocked around when all these objects slam into him!) 

The implications are pretty far-reaching: you can use objects to move other objects; you can move players (and objects) into and out of AoE ranges.  Layer this system on top of a destructible environment and things get really interesting!



Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: ezrast on June 20, 2015, 05:40:35 AM
Quote
Both players’ clients witness a fancy animation of one character flying through the air to the other, but it isn’t real. It’s fake. The end result is that one player can pull another player of any size (the server doesn’t care if it’s a teeny tiny character or a giant) to their feet as long as they can see them. This is not real physics.
Guys

That fun you're having

It's all fake


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Draegan on June 22, 2015, 10:04:59 AM
What's wrong with that post? It's more like what the new unity engine allows people to do easily. Who knows if it's good though.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Speedy Cerviche on June 22, 2015, 12:10:16 PM
This is the kind of Chris Roberts crap that I'd prefer not to read, especially in a MMORPG that has a 2M budget.

http://crowfall.com/#/news/combat-no-phake-physics

Quote

Each character has a variety of physics settings, such as mass and drag, which we set on an archetype-by-archetype basis for what we think would make the most sense. We use values that are comparable to what we think a human or a centaur would use, bearing in mind that our human is 2 m tall, runs at 6 m a second (12.2 mph), and can jump 1.5 m in the air in full plate armor. Quite the beast!

The chain pull, when executed, fires an invisible Raycast towards the center of his HUD reticule. Currently that Raycast is set to penetrate so even after it touches one target, the Raycast continues to the max range of the power, acquiring even more targets. (Don’t travel in straight lines to hide your numbers or you might ALL get hit by a single pull!) The Raycast applies an inverse velocity to anything it touches in the direction of the knight, be it a world object like a barrel or another player. Based on the mass of the target, and the strength of the velocity, the physics engine determines how fast the targets get launched across the ground towards the knight. (We found early on we needed to also temporarily increase the mass of the knight during this power so he doesn’t get knocked around when all these objects slam into him!)  

The implications are pretty far-reaching: you can use objects to move other objects; you can move players (and objects) into and out of AoE ranges.  Layer this system on top of a destructible environment and things get really interesting!



Doesn't seem to be too much of a stretch...Darkfall pulled this off quite well. That game had other issues like too much grind, lack of content and RPG elements (that a better dev could rectify), but the physics and combat engine was/is fantastic. You could pull off outrageously cool stuff with telekinetic magic.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: schild on June 22, 2015, 06:08:16 PM
This company's hires leave much to be desired.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Threash on August 04, 2015, 06:36:32 PM
Behold! (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a-ms2F_G82I) actual game footage of non existent game.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Nija on August 04, 2015, 11:19:41 PM
Who knows if it's good though.

I do. I know it is not good.

You heard it here first.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: WayAbvPar on August 06, 2015, 12:44:30 AM
Behold! (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a-ms2F_G82I) actual game footage of non existent game.

That looks promising. Obviously a lot more to get done.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Triforcer on August 06, 2015, 02:47:45 AM
Can someone explain to me how ranged classes will hit anyone in pvp with that kind of system?  Melee and AOE might work, but non hitscan ranged projectiles just don't work in mmos.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Merusk on August 06, 2015, 05:22:13 AM
Luck and firing into masses.   That chick is toast against a moving player because they missed so many times against stationary targets. 

The same kind of  LOS targeting works for FPS games because there's no windup on the single projectile skills and they fire much faster.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Zetor on August 06, 2015, 05:36:18 AM
It will be delightful to play with 300+ ping!


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: LC on August 06, 2015, 07:02:45 AM
Those graphics... so good. The characters look like they are made of plastic. I love the new paid before it's made model. Think of all the money game developers/publishers are saving now that they don't have to pay off reviewers for favorable reviews, or prevent reviews from being released ahead of the games release. Now they can collect all of that money in advance without even having a finished product to review.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Threash on August 06, 2015, 08:24:15 AM
Can someone explain to me how ranged classes will hit anyone in pvp with that kind of system?  Melee and AOE might work, but non hitscan ranged projectiles just don't work in mmos.

You are shooting at an army, not at a specific player.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Draegan on August 06, 2015, 09:59:03 AM
They've state that they are trying non assisted aiming first and if it aucks they'll work on other solutions.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Draegan on August 06, 2015, 09:59:48 AM
Those graphics... so good. The characters look like they are made of plastic. I love the new paid before it's made model. Think of all the money game developers/publishers are saving now that they don't have to pay off reviewers for favorable reviews, or prevent reviews from being released ahead of the games release. Now they can collect all of that money in advance without even having a finished product to review.

I thought the models looked pretty good for what they have. Not plastic at all.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Malakili on August 06, 2015, 10:17:02 AM
Honestly, I'm just not even going to bother analyzing pre-alpha footage that may or may not look and feel anything like the final game.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Speedy Cerviche on August 06, 2015, 11:35:58 AM
Can someone explain to me how ranged classes will hit anyone in pvp with that kind of system?  Melee and AOE might work, but non hitscan ranged projectiles just don't work in mmos.

In Darkfall stuff like archery had pretty fast velocity, and mages had high velocity bolt spells, and also basically short range instant action ray spells. The hardest part of hitting people was related to character movement being too fast, and very little momentum retention allowing spasmatic dodgeing techniques.

In the Crowfall video there most of those spells seem to be instant or pretty high velocity, some speeds might need to be tweaked up, but it's really not a problem as long as you realize your game is going to have a harder skill curve than a typical MMORPG with combat lock-ons and hit scan. Completely skilless people who have difficulty keeping their avatar faced in the proper general direction of AI mobs probably won't be able to hack it, just like they couldn't in any sort of action game. Nothing wrong with that, there's a lot of FPS players out there who would be interested in similar style action but in a meatier RPG world, just has to be executed and balanced well.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Trippy on August 06, 2015, 01:28:45 PM
Can someone explain to me how ranged classes will hit anyone in pvp with that kind of system?  Melee and AOE might work, but non hitscan ranged projectiles just don't work in mmos.
They do in TERA.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Paelos on August 07, 2015, 09:25:25 AM
I'm looking forward to giving a shit about this in 2016. Until then nothing they say matters to me.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: WayAbvPar on August 07, 2015, 12:08:16 PM
Thanks for that edgy hot take.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Paelos on August 07, 2015, 01:44:07 PM
Thanks for that edgy hot take.

It's the sausage getting made part of gaming that KS stuff has really exposed. Some people are into that I suppose, but for me this creates the unrealistic expectation feedback loop that fucks up your development cycle far more than if you just designed it in a vaccuum up to a certain point. That's what the alpha video says to me. It's explaining something that may or may not even exist in that form or look relatable after testing. But since you are showing to people it creates dialogue and expectation. It creates questions and adds comments to the development. Which they feel they have to give users to explain how their money is being spent. Even though we aren't investors anymore, so really they are just trying to attract new money.

I just want them to make the game and release limited information in the meantime until they get closer to workable products. Less talk.

Better?


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Malakili on August 07, 2015, 02:00:46 PM
I remember when I used to wait with bated breath for every shred of information about the games I wanted to play.  This reached a fever pitch of sorts with WAR for me personally ( :oh_i_see: ).  Although I have ultimately gotten quite a bit more value out of early access (Minecraft, Project Zomboid, Hex, H1Z1) than I have been burned by early access (Cube World, Prison Architect), I have to admit that now that the initial buzz over that funding model is over I kind of have to agree with Paelos on this one.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Threash on August 07, 2015, 02:31:54 PM
I just want them to make the game and release limited information in the meantime until they get closer to workable products. Less talk.

Better?

I'm sure that would be the plan if they didn't need more money.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: WayAbvPar on August 07, 2015, 02:38:06 PM
I am not disagreeing with the sentiment, just the post. It adds absolutely nothing to the discussion. If you don't care about the news, why post?


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Paelos on August 07, 2015, 03:19:43 PM
I am not disagreeing with the sentiment, just the post. It adds absolutely nothing to the discussion. If you don't care about the news, why post?

Well first off the Chris Roberts thread is the posterchild for that kind of thing so  :why_so_serious:

Second, I want to like the game which sort of means I'm forced to keep track of it, because if I don't that means other idiots get to have their opinions heard and the devs may respond. They may not. But the idea they are opening themselves up this early for criticism bothers me.

I don't want to give a shit now because I just want to them to build it and come back for opinions when it's semi-ready. That's not the way this is going to work though.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Threash on August 07, 2015, 03:54:24 PM
They pretty much have to, this is basically "our game exists, look at it, give us money".


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Paelos on August 08, 2015, 09:37:33 AM
They pretty much have to, this is basically "our game exists, look at it, give us money".

No and that's the problem when you have tiered funded. They didn't raise all their money in one swoop. They raised some.

That means they have to be continually campaigning like a career politician. And we all know how great that is.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Threash on August 13, 2015, 03:00:03 PM
Someone explain to me if this is good or bad. (https://crowfall.com/#/news/animation-techno-mumbo-jumbo)


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Goreschach on August 13, 2015, 04:20:43 PM
It's a buzzword laden bullshit hype article written by someone who has obviously never written an animation system before.

tl;dr version is they tried some stupid shit that anyone familiar with net based game architecture would have dismissed offhand. Turns out it didn't work and now they're changing shit. Shocking.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Draegan on August 13, 2015, 10:08:43 PM
It was written by the guy who helped develop combat for DCUO.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: ezrast on August 16, 2015, 02:14:40 AM
Quote
Unfortunately, even in 2015, the best roundtrip from a client, through the servers and back to the client is about 150ms-250ms.
:headscratch:


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Merusk on August 16, 2015, 07:57:18 AM
I don't think he meant ping alone there. It was Ping + movement processing time.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: ezrast on August 16, 2015, 10:07:45 PM
A quarter of a second is still a really long time for that. All I can figure is that he meant "the best roundtrip that we can count on from a client..." as in, the worst-case scenario that they still want to be able to support.

That, or he somehow threw an extra zero onto both numbers.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Draegan on August 17, 2015, 11:00:47 AM
A quarter of a second is still a really long time for that. All I can figure is that he meant "the best roundtrip that we can count on from a client..." as in, the worst-case scenario that they still want to be able to support.

That, or he somehow threw an extra zero onto both numbers.

That's how I read it.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: tmp on August 17, 2015, 04:43:37 PM
A quarter of a second is still a really long time for that. All I can figure is that he meant "the best roundtrip that we can count on from a client..." as in, the worst-case scenario that they still want to be able to support.

That, or he somehow threw an extra zero onto both numbers.
It's a MMO so it likely includes times when connecting from long distances and/or overseas, not just from next city over a hill, and/or over average (or worse) instead of the best there is infrastructure. ~200 msec is typical round trip for me when connecting from backward parts of EU to somewhere in NA.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Xuri on August 18, 2015, 06:04:21 AM
Trivia: I had 150ms ping to Atlantic server in UO, once, from Norway :P

Fake edit: Woah. Just tried, and now I have 118ms. Hmm. maybe I should play UO again.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Slayerik on August 18, 2015, 11:40:02 AM
Play fake UO with me on a free shard. ;) Still playing it cause basically it's still the best PVP around.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Triforcer on August 31, 2015, 10:29:43 PM
Next stretch goal is male Assassin- happy about this because Assassin is my class and I wanted a male character.  Always had to play a witch elf in WAR because I hated Order.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Threash on September 01, 2015, 09:40:37 AM
Next stretch goal is male Assassin- happy about this because Assassin is my class and I wanted a male character.  Always had to play a witch elf in WAR because I hated Order.

Very happy about that myself. I understand why they needed to gender lock a buncha archtypes but something as generic and popular as assassin shouldn't have been one of them.  Also this already looks way better than camelot unchained.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Threash on September 01, 2015, 02:19:11 PM
Also this already looks way better than camelot unchained.

Like i said. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VsWcAjQ2pow&feature=youtu.be)  Skip to 18:30 or so for the current state of the game.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Threash on September 04, 2015, 04:22:26 PM
Pre alpha streams going (http://www.twitch.tv/directory/game/Crowfall)


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Falconeer on September 05, 2015, 10:13:36 AM
I watched a few hours of this last night, and I walked away with nothing. Not positive nor negative: it's a pre-alpha and it's impossible to form a judgement. Also, as to be expected everyone was complaining about latency and input lag, so I doubt even those who tried would have a real opinion as of yet. Draegan played and streamed some of it, he would be our best source of information.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Threash on September 05, 2015, 10:17:00 AM
That they have come this far in the few months since the kickstarter ended does give me some hope that they can put out an actual game in the time frame they claim.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Nija on September 05, 2015, 10:40:30 AM
They haven't even done the first 80%. Forget about the other 80%.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Draegan on September 05, 2015, 10:47:04 PM
Games require 160%.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Triforcer on September 06, 2015, 02:33:26 AM
My slate pitch on this is that I don't need a mind-blowing and revolutionary combat system in an SB- style MMO.  Just make the SB parts (city building, etc.) better with combat that does not completely blow goats.  All this DCUO style combo shit does nothing for me- WAR style tab targeting would be good enough.  It's getting the SB part right that would make this revolutionary, as opposed to trying to create the cold fusion of combat systems on a 5 mil budget.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Draegan on September 06, 2015, 07:31:26 AM
Tab target system is an instant turn off for me. It's why I have no interest in Camelot unchained.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Threash on September 06, 2015, 09:10:23 AM
The only game to do a fun pvp tab target system was Age of Wushu, i much prefer action combat like DCUO or Tera but i would be ok with something like that. Their philosophy is that combat is what matters the most, so yeah expect to see plenty of focus on it.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Nija on September 06, 2015, 12:36:55 PM
Games require 160%.

The 80/20 rule. The last 20% takes 80% of the time. It's the other 80%.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Draegan on September 08, 2015, 03:13:12 PM
The only game to do a fun pvp tab target system was Age of Wushu, i much prefer action combat like DCUO or Tera but i would be ok with something like that. Their philosophy is that combat is what matters the most, so yeah expect to see plenty of focus on it.

Wushu was in it's own realm of awful.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Threash on September 08, 2015, 04:29:41 PM
Yeah, but the combat was really good and fun.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Triforcer on September 10, 2015, 05:46:31 AM
Crowfall Collector's Edition announced!  I already have in my Amber kickstarter.  Seems awfully early to put this out for a (supposedly) end of 2016 release.  Wish there was at least two or three in-game exclusives- only one coming.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Falconeer on September 10, 2015, 05:57:45 AM
150 dollars. 21 miniatures.


(http://images.mmorpg.com/images/newsImages/372015//Crowfall-CE.jpg)


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Paelos on September 10, 2015, 07:14:19 AM
Ah. Minis and a comic. The geek is strong with this one.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Falconeer on September 10, 2015, 07:20:05 AM
Did you know that you can now invest (2000$ up) (https://angel.co/artcraft-entertainment/) on this?

 :awesome_for_real:


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Merusk on September 10, 2015, 07:33:22 AM
Nothing I can find about the % of ownership. Must be behind the investment application process, which since I don't make $200k/ year or have $1mil in assets I can't even bother with. Interesting, though.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Threash on September 10, 2015, 02:23:17 PM
I love those minis.  So that's 3 more months of vip on top of the six years i already had lol.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: shiznitz on September 10, 2015, 03:51:25 PM
You are all crazy.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Rasix on September 10, 2015, 03:55:42 PM
You are all crazy.

This may be the first time we agree on anything. Jesus christ, you guys.. 


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Merusk on September 10, 2015, 04:24:46 PM
You are all crazy.

I object. Investment isn't crazy if you can afford it and know what your return can be.

I'm sure as fuck not playing this game, but I'll gladly take a share of the sheep being fleeced if I can. Wouldn't you like a piece of that SC money? At least this has a chance of being shipped and giving returns.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: KallDrexx on September 10, 2015, 09:42:20 PM
It doesn't matter what your return *can* be, what matters is what you realistically believe your return *will* be.

Investment is only not crazy if the game does extremely well that either
1) the company gets bought several years down the line and your (hopefully not diluted too badly) shares are worth more than what you originally paid for it
2) Game does amazingly well and they distribute profits among all owners

None of that is remotely likely.  They are trying to make a AAA priced MMO with only a few million that's going to try and be a rebel in the marketplace by refusing to be F2P for a competitive game that requires enough players constantly playing in order to make the competitive aspects enjoyable.  The likelyhood of this game actually succeeding long term is slim, and the likelyhood of them succeeding so amazingly well that your investment is worth tying up your money (even a few grand) for a good 3-5 years at least and doing better than it would if you just dumped it in the S&P 500 is just so slim that it's not worth it unless you just have shit tons of money to blow.  Even then I can think of many more startups that are probably less risk to invest your money in for a bigger reward.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Merusk on September 10, 2015, 10:02:42 PM
It doesn't matter what your return *can* be, what matters is what you realistically believe your return *will* be.

Investment is only not crazy if the game does extremely well that either
1) the company gets bought several years down the line and your (hopefully not diluted too badly) shares are worth more than what you originally paid for it
2) Game does amazingly well and they distribute profits among all owners

None of that is remotely likely.  They are trying to make a AAA priced MMO with only a few million that's going to try and be a rebel in the marketplace by refusing to be F2P for a competitive game that requires enough players constantly playing in order to make the competitive aspects enjoyable.  The likelyhood of this game actually succeeding long term is slim, and the likelyhood of them succeeding so amazingly well that your investment is worth tying up your money (even a few grand) for a good 3-5 years at least and doing better than it would if you just dumped it in the S&P 500 is just so slim that it's not worth it unless you just have shit tons of money to blow.  Even then I can think of many more startups that are probably less risk to invest your money in for a bigger reward.
Right, which is why I was trying to find the info. I wanted to see if it was a really bad deal or a so-so deal being offered. No way it's like, "Hey we got bought out and you own 1% for your 100k investment in the company, here's your slice!"

Game company investing is gambling without the silly cards and dice to mess with.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Paelos on September 11, 2015, 10:08:21 AM
My guess is they are selling minority shares and won't water down their own holdings. Meaning your $100,000 would probably only be worth half a percent.

So let's say they get bought out for $60M by somebody later. You'd get back triple your money. Huzzah! Except for the value on a per dollar basis for what they are raising, you paid a 2x premium for that percentage. You should have gotten 6x your money if they were selling equal shares.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: shiznitz on September 11, 2015, 02:31:46 PM
Your example assumes a MMOG company has ever sold itself for anything more than the promise of hand jobs since Brad McQuaid got his Sony money. 

If investing in Crowfall was so great, Crowfall wouldn't be offering ownership to internet yahoos. 


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Paelos on September 11, 2015, 03:36:03 PM
Your example assumes a MMOG company has ever sold itself for anything more than the promise of hand jobs since Brad McQuaid got his Sony money. 

If investing in Crowfall was so great, Crowfall wouldn't be offering ownership to internet yahoos. 

Sort of. If they offer it to private equity groups, they'd likely want a majority share for their money, and they'd lose control of the company. Internet yahoos wouldn't demand that.

If I'm putting up $5M of capital and you only put in $2.5, but you're doing the work, I want 51% of your company minimum. Because sweat equity is bullshit to me and I want the ability to demand updates and fire weak performers.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: shiznitz on September 14, 2015, 03:12:35 PM
The fact that the team won't subject themselves to such a standard only proves that they view Crowfall as just another monthly paycheck machine.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Paelos on September 15, 2015, 09:46:09 AM
Nah it just proves to me they are game developers who don't understand real business. That's pretty normal.

I don't think it will keep them from releasing a product, simply because I don't think there's a ton of potential for feature creep here. On its face it's a game about PVP in a randomly generated set of worlds. If you can find tune that word building aspect of it? It's like reloading Minecraft over and over. Your design team has to do very little in terms of hand-crafting worlds, which leaves them room for combat and other additions.

I don't see them suddenly promising Tavernkeeper 2.0 along with the standard classes like SWTOR, or doing the ridiculous promises like Star Citizen.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Draegan on September 17, 2015, 01:44:30 PM
Not having to actually hand craft the vast majority of content and instead just making sure rulesets and systems work has to be a huge time saver. Only reason why I expect the game to launch in decent shape.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Soulflame on September 20, 2015, 07:30:05 PM
Games require 160%.

I had to laugh, because it's clear Nija is in software development.

Basically, The last y% (where y% = 100%-x%) takes x% of time.  It actually holds pretty true in software development.

Although I usually see it as "the last 10% will take 90% of the time required."


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: WayAbvPar on September 21, 2015, 10:42:04 AM
Games require 160%.

I had to laugh, because it's clear Nija is in software development.

Basically, The last y% (where y% = 100%-x%) takes x% of time.  It actually holds pretty true in software development.

Although I usually see it as "the last 10% will take 90% of the time required."

I am not directly involved in the process (apart from helping out with testing), but I work in a dev house and hammering out the last few bugs to make things stable and useful is generally a bitch. Since if they were easy to fix, they would have been solved long before.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: slog on September 21, 2015, 01:55:25 PM
Nah it just proves to me they are game developers who don't understand real business. That's pretty normal.

I don't think it will keep them from releasing a product, simply because I don't think there's a ton of potential for feature creep here. On its face it's a game about PVP in a randomly generated set of worlds. If you can find tune that word building aspect of it? It's like reloading Minecraft over and over. Your design team has to do very little in terms of hand-crafting worlds, which leaves them room for combat and other additions.

I don't see them suddenly promising Tavernkeeper 2.0 along with the standard classes like SWTOR, or doing the ridiculous promises like Star Citizen.

Doesn't it prove that they do understand real business?  Why do it the hard way when there are players trying to give you money?


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: tmp on September 23, 2015, 08:47:08 PM
So, the long ass trailer (https://youtu.be/FunV47NzKI8?t=53) said there'd be alpha in summer 2015 without any NDA, and the summer is now over. Someone spill here what the alpha is like :why_so_serious:

edit: went to official forums and found some footage from recent combat test (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ZjG3OFsuK8), apparently. action starts at 5:30 or so.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Draegan on September 24, 2015, 09:24:28 AM
Testing has been going on for a month and no NDA is attached. There are plenty of streams out there.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Threash on September 24, 2015, 10:00:53 AM
They are about to shut down the alpha 1 beta to go back to work, next one should be in a couple months with some extra classes.  As far as i can tell from the videos they'd made some solid progress in the short time they've had.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Draegan on September 24, 2015, 05:48:46 PM
Alpha 1 hasn't started. They are technically calling this pre alpha.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Triforcer on September 24, 2015, 06:52:29 PM
Alpha 1 hasn't started. They are technically calling this pre alpha.

Everybody does this, but I hate that "clever" little tactic.  It will be pre alpha for two years, alpha for a week, beta for a week, then release!


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Threash on September 24, 2015, 07:15:57 PM
Doesn't matter what they call it, i'm going by what level pledge they are letting on and they let on everyone who had an alpha 1 included pledge.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Gimfain on September 25, 2015, 02:44:19 AM
While battleground videos that only includes three classes might not be a fair representation of the game, it seemed like people just ran together and didn't really work together apart from hitting the target with the best they could. I really missed support classes, so if I play a PvP-style mmorpg I will probably play camelot unchained instead.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Draegan on September 25, 2015, 08:17:41 AM
Alpha 1 hasn't started. They are technically calling this pre alpha.

Everybody does this, but I hate that "clever" little tactic.  It will be pre alpha for two years, alpha for a week, beta for a week, then release!

I understand where you're coming from, but these guys are being very transparent with their development. If you're into that sort of thing, they had a cool video where they snapshotted progress in 2 week clips a few weeks ago. When they say Pre-Alpha, they really mean it. They have a clear set of goals and milestones for each section and it seems they are sticking with it.

Doesn't matter what they call it, i'm going by what level pledge they are letting on and they let on everyone who had an alpha 1 included pledge.

Sure I guess it really doesn't matter if you want to play that game. They just needed more bodies in testing. Testing ends at the end of the month and they will go down for a month and testing will start up again in November. They just need bodies which is why they invited more people. Shrug.

Semantics I guess?


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Draegan on September 25, 2015, 08:19:46 AM
While battleground videos that only includes three classes might not be a fair representation of the game, it seemed like people just ran together and didn't really work together apart from hitting the target with the best they could. I really missed support classes, so if I play a PvP-style mmorpg I will probably play camelot unchained instead.

When I got time to play, the latency was horrific and it made the game really unplayable for a lot of people. Those that did well played way too much and just got better at lag prediction. The Legionnaire is the support class which I played several times. It's got a lot of displacement in it's kit and an actual AOE heal.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Falconeer on October 21, 2015, 07:42:21 AM
Not sure what is going on here... (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T3ui_ErqSbg)

At least they are having fun.

For those who don't know, the guy is the owner of the company.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Threash on October 21, 2015, 08:29:14 AM
That video is amazing.


Title: Re: Old School MMO devs catch case of Nostalgia. Is it contagious? Call your doctor.
Post by: MahrinSkel on October 21, 2015, 04:01:41 PM
I'm beginning to think I should open a consultancy for investors to tell them when a video game project is a bad fucking idea.

That might be my "million dollar idea."
No, there's not much money in that. Ultimately, the question they really want answered is not 'will this game make money?', but 'will it look good on paper long enough to let us dump it on someone else?' with a side order of 'we did our due diligence, look at these consultant reports.'

--Dave

EDIT: Sorry for the pseudo-necro, didn't realize I was on page 2 of a 30+ page thread. Going to leave it, though.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Threash on November 19, 2015, 09:43:53 AM
Quote
P.S. about Stretch Goals - As some of you have already noted, we are quickly approaching the completion of our “Hire a QA Champion” stretch goal (well-timed for the 1.1 playtest!) That begs the question, “What’s Next?”

The answer is that we want to try holding off on any new stretch goals for a bit.  While we are as excited as you guys are about growing our vision, the simple truth is that we have a lot on our plate already…. A lot!

Rather than promising a new feature, adding more content or recruiting a new person to our team, we’re going to focus on building the game that we’ve already promised.

Does this mean we won’t do any more stretch goals going forward?  We’re not sure.  Stretch goals are fun! But they’re also more work (and cost).  Our priority has to be delivering what we’ve already promised – and it’s hard to hit a target that won’t stop moving.

I know some of you will be disappointed – it’s much more fun to promise new stuff than to deliver what’s expected, but we believe it is the right approach.  We hope that you’ll support us in this decision, at least for now, and we’ll reassess this decision again sometime in the future.

Props.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Malakili on November 19, 2015, 09:47:41 AM
He might as well have just come out and said "We aren't Star Citizen."

Which is a good thing of course.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: HaemishM on November 19, 2015, 10:36:27 AM
Well, as much of a "pie in the sky" dream as a good PVP MMOG is, it's still a less ambitious goal than what Star Citizen is promising.  :why_so_serious:


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Rasix on November 19, 2015, 12:01:46 PM
Well, as much of a "pie in the sky" dream as a good PVP MMOG is, it's still a less ambitious goal than what Star Citizen is promising.  :why_so_serious:

SkyNet has less feature creep than Star Citizen.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: WayAbvPar on November 19, 2015, 12:22:13 PM
He might as well have just come out and said "We aren't Star Citizen."

Which is a good thing of course.

The SC debacle is a cautionary tale that might actually help other crowdfunded projects in the future. Nice of Christ Roberts to take that bullet for us. He is dying for our sins.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Paelos on November 19, 2015, 12:47:14 PM
I'm sure many funders will wish he was dead once this all spins into oblivion.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Draegan on November 20, 2015, 08:43:51 AM
I played the game last night. Feels much better than the previous version. Lag and latency is way down. Only complaint is combat feedback and controls are very loose.

They are making amazing progress.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Threash on November 20, 2015, 10:33:32 AM
I played the game last night. Feels much better than the previous version. Lag and latency is way down. Only complaint is combat feedback and controls are very loose.

They are making amazing progress.

I should be in at some point during this test too, can't wait.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Rendakor on November 20, 2015, 10:52:35 AM
I think I'm in too. Will give it a look this weekend.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: WayAbvPar on November 20, 2015, 04:13:50 PM
Give them good feedback and help shape a good game.  I am done with betas and early access games, but I have a copy of this waiting if/when it ever comes out.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Threash on November 22, 2015, 11:03:31 AM
Movement is...weird, but there is a surprisingly fun game here already after 8 months of work.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Draegan on November 24, 2015, 03:34:58 PM
All movement is server side. They haven't implemented client based movement yet. Should come either at the end of the 1.1 test or for the next testing group whenever that is.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Threash on November 24, 2015, 04:32:22 PM
Well, it's not really "laggy" it's just...weird.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Falconeer on December 15, 2015, 04:01:42 AM
The new stage of testing will be about environment destruction, and it's gonna be called.... Siege Perilous. That is a beautiful, nostalgic low blow.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Falconeer on December 18, 2015, 04:38:51 AM
Well, it's not really "laggy" it's just...weird.

I agree. The lag is there, but the weird part is that you don't control and move around your character like EVERY other MMORPG out there where the S key in the WASD scheme makes you backpedal. Instead, with S you turn around and run towards the camera. Basically, there is no strafe of any kind in the game at the moment (not even "backward strafing") and you move like you would in a Dark Souls game, minus the ability to lock target. It is not a matter of remapping, these are design decisions.

So yes, while it's less bad than it sounds (because your mouse still aims and rotates the camera very responsively), it is very weird. Seems thought for... a console controller.  :oh_i_see:


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Draegan on December 18, 2015, 09:25:32 AM
The control scheme is definitely not good, but I don't think they've really refined it at this point.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Speedy Cerviche on December 21, 2015, 04:36:24 PM
So it's like the control setup in a tank game? sorta


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Falconeer on December 21, 2015, 05:58:57 PM
Well, they listened to "us" and decided to delay the February test of Sieges and Destruction to focus on more combat polishing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aQttL0fEY3c

In short, our whining delayed the game  :awesome_for_real:

More seriously, a lot of good feedback might actually end up delivering a good combat system, should the game ever be released.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Paelos on December 27, 2015, 11:45:32 AM
Combat is paramount. The more they realize that, the better. It doesn't matter how many things you can destroy if you don't even like playing the combat.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Threash on December 27, 2015, 12:50:48 PM
Yeah, they know that and they are making it their main focus which is very good.  On the other hand they seem to be trying to reinvent the wheel here and mostly striking out.  Ideal combat would be Tera, a second acceptable choice would be DCUO, those are the two games they said they were sorta modeling their combat after, but so far it was nowhere close to either.  I know it is super super early but they have a very limited budget and I'm not sure how many delays they can afford.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Draegan on December 27, 2015, 01:33:39 PM
Yeah, they know that and they are making it their main focus which is very good.  On the other hand they seem to be trying to reinvent the wheel here and mostly striking out.  Ideal combat would be Tera, a second acceptable choice would be DCUO, those are the two games they said they were sorta modeling their combat after, but so far it was nowhere close to either.  I know it is super super early but they have a very limited budget and I'm not sure how many delays they can afford.

Lead dev said he wants something close to Tera. He was actually a dev for DCUO for combat too.

The combat they rolled out was crap.  You weren't tied to the retical so it felt like a space sim.  There was no velocitybto your attacks. Etc etc.

In their last update video basically claims all the shit i hated about it they are fixing.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Threash on December 29, 2015, 05:30:08 PM
Their big reveal finally dropped (http://crowfall.com/en/news/the-big-reveal-crows-and-vessels/), it's basically account based leveling i think.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Rendakor on December 29, 2015, 05:46:58 PM
Yea pretty much.

Vessels are items that are tradeable, craftable, etc. , with quality/rarity levels. You possess one of them as a character to play as. That determines your stats, and puts a cap on your skills based on your race/class. Your actual skills are all account based, and passively train online or off like EVE.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Threash on December 29, 2015, 07:54:26 PM
Seems like a fun system, also it means i get like 100 extra game dollars from my pledge since there are no extra character slots anymore.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Falconeer on December 30, 2015, 06:32:37 AM
I think you could say that you skill up level up your account, and then your characters are your EVE ships. Not surprised they call the characters "vessels", which literallymeans both "hollow container" and "large ship or boat". This is trying to cater more and more to the EVE people (but not just them).


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: palmer_eldritch on December 30, 2015, 06:45:43 PM
It sounds like a good system. I hadn't realised the game was so hardcore though - it sounds like in certain circumstances people can loot your vessel, which is pretty much your character class, if they kill you. Presumably the basic vessels will actually be pretty easy to craft (like a basic "tier one" ship in Eve) but there also seem to be some rare vessels or vessels which need rare ingredients to craft.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Rendakor on December 30, 2015, 06:53:55 PM
That's only in 0.0 though (Dregs).


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Falconeer on December 31, 2015, 08:59:21 AM
That's only in 0.0 though (Dregs).

This. You can choose what campaign/servers to play on and change it periodically, so you are never ever forced to go anywhere where you can be looted upon death.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Teleku on January 01, 2016, 03:33:59 AM
Wow, this is actually a really cool system.  They did their homework and tried to pick the best parts of other systems out there, rather than trying to stick with the standard WoW MMO path.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Falconeer on January 01, 2016, 05:45:10 AM
Relevant additional info:

Quote
CROWS AND VESSELS FAQ
 

How does advancement work in Crowfall?

Advancement in Crowfall is slightly different than what you’ve seen in other games. We’ve effectively broken advancement into two parts: physical (represented by attributes such as Strength, Intelligence, etc.) and mental (skill gain, such as concentration or competency with two-handed weapons).

Every player is an immortal, chosen by the gods to participate in an endless war to determine who shall be the King of the Gods. As an immortal, you have the ability to take different forms (or avatar) which provide you different attributes and powers. You retain your memories between these vessels, in the form of retained knowledge (skills).

What is a “vessel” and how does it work?

Vessels are (basically) bodies – corporeal forms that players can inhabit. You possess the body of a fallen hero and use it for as long as you like.  It’s up to you how frequently you want to change vessels – some players will collect them and change often, other players will pick one that they like and play it forever.

Do the players have a spiritual (non-corporeal) form?  How do I appear when I am in between avatars?

You have an immortal form that looks like a ghostly crow in the 3D world. This represents your immortal, eternal spirit.

In technical terms, the crow is really the “account level” version of you (the player). You take this form in the game when you die and remain in that form until you possess your next vessel.

How do you split advancement between the crow and the avatar(s)?

Character power is divided into two distinct parts:

Physical Attributes are dictated by the mortal vessel.  This means that a Minotaur Myrmidon will be much stronger than an Elven Frostweaver who will be much more agile than a Human Knight. The avatar will set base attributes and will encapsulate the combined effects of runestones (archetype, disciplines, talents and traits).

Spiritual Knowledge is comprised of the memories that you accumulate over the course of many lives – which means that they are stored on your crow. Think of this as the residual knowledge that you carry between avatars, such as how to craft a helmet, recite an incantation or wield a blade. The vessel that you choose to possess (your avatar) will determine how much of your residual knowledge you can use at any time.

Notable Functionality:

Each Crowfall account may have one crow (and thus one master skill list).
All skill training happens on the crow.  This means that skill train benefits you across all characters, subject to the skill limitations of each vessel.
Guild memberships happens at the crow (account) level. You can change between avatars without affecting your guild affiliation.
Crows will have a unique name.  Avatars can take names as well, but they are not unique.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Mandella on January 01, 2016, 11:56:20 AM
Well crap this is actually looking interesting.

No way I can see it can be played casually though. It's looking like it's going to be one of those, "Live in the world, or just give up" type of games.

Pretty much why I gave up on group PvP -- just can't make that kind of time investment anymore.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Merusk on January 01, 2016, 01:02:01 PM
Yep. You're going to find a lot of people coming to that realization, too. Even back in the Shadowbane days I was "casual" and I was sticking 5-8 hours a night into the game.

The quote I had back then was something like, "You don't have to be the best to win open PVP games. You just have to play an hour longer than your opponent."


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: tmp on January 01, 2016, 01:05:19 PM
The quote I had back then was something like, "You don't have to be the best to win open PVP games. You just have to play an hour longer than your opponent."
Or, depending on the system used, "You just have to hold the advantage at the right time (zone)".


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: palmer_eldritch on January 01, 2016, 01:47:36 PM
Is this a game where joining a big guild is going to be a good thing?

Edit: From what I can see on the website it doesn't have factions, which would make it a bit easier to just drop into I think, as you'd just find out what a big group in your faction is up to and go join them. If it's a complete free for all then I guess being in a guild becomes more important?


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Threash on January 01, 2016, 02:09:38 PM
There are a large amount of different rule sets, some are factions (chaos order and neutral) some are god based (12 different sides) some are guild based and some are free for all.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: palmer_eldritch on January 01, 2016, 02:24:20 PM
I feel like I'm going to join the hype train


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Merusk on January 01, 2016, 03:47:55 PM
You're old and don't have the time. Just say no.  :why_so_serious:


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Tmon on January 01, 2016, 05:45:38 PM
You're old and don't have the time. Just say no.  :why_so_serious:

That's what I keep telling myself.  Hopefully it will be subscription based.  If it is ftp or buy the box to play I'll probably get sucked in.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Falconeer on January 01, 2016, 05:55:55 PM
They say it is buy to play. Then Premium services will be available but subscription won't be mandatory.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Threash on January 01, 2016, 06:33:35 PM
The b2p account can train 1 general and 1 archtype skill at a time, the vip accounts are 1 and 3 or 2 and 2, not sure.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: ezrast on January 01, 2016, 09:11:24 PM
I think they specified that it was 1 and 3 somewhere. So subscribers will be able to train up three classes at a time, but won't gain power with any individual class faster than the rest of us.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Draegan on January 02, 2016, 07:32:46 AM
Whether will play is good able enough will depend on how the day to day gameplay is. No one knows what that is yet.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Segoris on January 02, 2016, 11:41:46 AM
Whether will play is good able enough will depend on how the day to day gameplay is. No one knows what that is yet.

Were you having a stroke writing the first part of that post? :why_so_serious:

But yeah, when players are the content then day to day gameplay matters more than it does in other games since there's not really other systems to hide shitty gameplay behind. At least ACE seems to be listening to playatesters, so that's nice.



Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Pennilenko on January 02, 2016, 01:08:16 PM
Whether will play is good able enough will depend on how the day to day gameplay is. No one knows what that is yet.

Heh, that is almost meme worthy.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: palmer_eldritch on January 03, 2016, 11:45:57 AM
They claim they're going to be selling the game for $50 so I may put down $69 for the package that gives beta access and a copy of the game . . . even though I know it will go free to play after six months anyway.

Looking at the alpha videos, it's striking how much more polished it seems than Camelot Unchained even at such a basic and early stage.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Teleku on January 03, 2016, 01:35:49 PM
Yep. You're going to find a lot of people coming to that realization, too. Even back in the Shadowbane days I was "casual" and I was sticking 5-8 hours a night into the game.

The quote I had back then was something like, "You don't have to be the best to win open PVP games. You just have to play an hour longer than your opponent."
Ehhh, nobody knows how things will actually shake out at this point, but at least with the skill system they announced, its much more casual friendly.  Log in for a minute every few nights to set your skill queue, logout.  You are leveling/grinding/advancing your character at the same speed the guy who spends 20 hours in game is.  That should take away a lot of the pressure to spend hours grinding away right there.

After that, if your in some big guild that announces when they are doing ops; it shouldn't be hard to login for 2-3 hours to have some PvP, then get out.  That's how it worked in Eve, which can also be the biggest time sink catass game ever invented (it you want it to be).  And I imagine it should be MUCH easier to jump into a big fight in this sort of game than it is with the way Eve is setup, so probably even quicker.

But again, what the final game looks like will determine that.  What they are announcing so far though looks very promising however.  Appealing to both Casuals and Hardcore in a way nobody else seems to have tried yet.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Merusk on January 03, 2016, 01:40:28 PM
That statement was never about player advancement. It's about making sure your shit doesn't get destroyed while you're away. That's the only definition of winning in a persistent pvp mmo.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Rendakor on January 03, 2016, 10:46:37 PM
Casual players by definition don't care about the persistent stuff; they just want a good fight. Feeling like they're contributing to their [guild/faction/whatever] is a nice bonus but these aren't the people with alarms waking them up every 2 hours to check Travian.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Teleku on January 04, 2016, 07:16:26 AM
That statement was never about player advancement. It's about making sure your shit doesn't get destroyed while you're away. That's the only definition of winning in a persistent pvp mmo.
As I said, if your in some big guild, you can just login for a big fight as long as you want, then log out.  Other cat asses will handle all the organization and making sure shit doesn't get burned down in at 4 AM.  This is exactly how it plays out in Eve, and there is no reason to believe it can't work the same way here.  Being in a small guild trying to hold a town that can get attacked..... well, then you'll probably need to be a little more hardcore then.

Having said that, how they choose to handle sieges and town destruction will be a big factor in all this, and the wrong decision could fuck things up.  So, guess we'll wait and see.   :awesome_for_real:


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Falconeer on January 04, 2016, 08:48:54 AM
Not sure this fits here but I feel like refraining something I've been saying (and looking forward to) for a while and that is relevant to any Play2crush conversation.

If you take a look at the Steam stats, you can see that there are 2 games in the top 11 most played games at any given time. Ark and Rust. They sold respectively 2.5 million boxes and 3.2 million boxies. With DayZ that has sold 3.4 million boxes. That's more than 9 million sales. But sales don't matter much. Let's see who is playing...

Ark and Rust together make up for about 110k concurrent players online at peak times, and we are talking about two games which feature full loot PvP and fully destructible bases when you are offline. If we add the third game of that kind that is closer to the top, H1Z1, which is in 20th place, you get to almost 150k players online at the same time looking for games with the most ferocious and unforgiving "meaningful" PvP in existence. If you want to go deeper and put together other games with significant numbers, you have to add another 25k between DayZ and Hurtworld. And this is all without counting the multitude of minor ones, which still account for a few thousands, and of course EVE, which has a lot although not all of the same elements.

This started three years ago and it has been growing steadily. Not bad for a genre and a playstyle that a lot said it couldn't ever gather even a measly 30k players.

Bottom line: there's almost 200k concurrent players online every day splitting themselves over games with slightly different engines and settings, but all sharing a few elements, and basically just Playing2Crush:

- Multiplayer only
- Persistently Online
- With persistent housing
- With full loot PvP
- With fully lootable and destructible (other players') buildings
- With close to NO PvE
- With no quests
- With no safe zones
- With a box cost
- With no subscription

Some of us might be too old to take part, but Felucca has never been healthier. Not even in 1998.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Merusk on January 04, 2016, 12:15:32 PM
Yes, 142k out of 2.5 million players for the top 20 games. That's 5.6%, less than the 'peak' of Play2Crush as a percentage.

That statement was never about player advancement. It's about making sure your shit doesn't get destroyed while you're away. That's the only definition of winning in a persistent pvp mmo.
As I said, if your in some big guild, you can just login for a big fight as long as you want, then log out.  Other cat asses will handle all the organization and making sure shit doesn't get burned down in at 4 AM.  This is exactly how it plays out in Eve, and there is no reason to believe it can't work the same way here.  Being in a small guild trying to hold a town that can get attacked..... well, then you'll probably need to be a little more hardcore then.

Yes, that's exactly what I expect to play out. However it's been pretty typical that casuals-need-not-apply to large guilds. Wasn't that what Goonswarm broke ground on in the first place? The very idea that a 'pleb' could play2crush along with the big boys? Skills trained offline, but getting the funds to be able to buy and field ships took money and that took game-time.

So what also makes a difference is how much time it takes to get gear for your 'vessel' to be at a viable point. Whatever 'viable' winds up being in the metagame. If it's the old UO style where folks can be ganking with commons and safeguard super-legendaries for special events, great. If it's like Eve where it takes 4-5 hours per death to recover, then that's gonna suck hard on the "two hour a night" folks.

Now maybe a new game will create groups that follow the same paradigm rather than mandating #of hours online for being able to participate. However, gamers being who they are personality-wise I have my doubts.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Falconeer on January 05, 2016, 09:40:45 AM
More stuff, this time on how they are gonna inject some SWG in the mix:

(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/3584773/CROW%20Blair%20on%20SWG.png)


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Threash on January 05, 2016, 09:51:08 AM
Some of us might be too old to take part, but Felucca has never been healthier. Not even in 1998.

That's an incredibly good and extremely surprising point.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Tmon on January 05, 2016, 11:03:46 AM
I think the low to no PVE is a key, everybody who joins one of those games knows they are part of the content.  When almost everything you have ultimately comes from the body of another player being fully lootable yourself isn't a huge problem.  I imagine that low information buyers who get the game thinking they can just live in the world and be left alone to craft buildings and what not leave the game fairly quickly.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Rendakor on January 05, 2016, 01:26:29 PM
I think the low to no PVE is a key, everybody who joins one of those games knows they are part of the content.  When almost everything you have ultimately comes from the body of another player being fully lootable yourself isn't a huge problem.  I imagine that low information buyers who get the game thinking they can just live in the world and be left alone to craft buildings and what not leave the game fairly quickly.
I disagree with your last sentence; the stuff Falc just posted talking about SWG seems to imply that you'll be perfectly capable of just crafting if you want.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Merusk on January 05, 2016, 01:53:28 PM
Not without the consequences of logging into a FFAPVP environment, which is what will drive away a number of the folks who think that way.

Unless they change the prior statements about rare and exotic materials/ crafted items not being able to leave the FFA PVP zones. If they do that then you'll have plenty of craft drones available. Not being able to make "the best stuff" without being exposed to PVP++ is what kept me from being interested in the first place.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: palmer_eldritch on January 05, 2016, 02:55:04 PM
In Eve you need to get materials for high end items from the free-for-all PvP areas (eg mining mercoxit, mining many moon materials and getting stuff from wormholes). However, the people who gather materials are generally not the people who actually use them. Instead, materials are usually exported to safe space where the actual production takes place. Finished items (eg spaceships and components) are usually sold in safe space too, sometimes to people who then transport them back to the PvP areas to be used.

So you can do your dangerous deep space mining operations or wormhole explanation, and guilds can conquer space and make use of the resources (which means mining moons). But there are also industrialists living in safe space who are making items and watching the market and buying and stockpiling resources and all the stuff they enjoy doing.

It would be cool if they did something similar here.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Rendakor on January 05, 2016, 02:59:40 PM
The real crux will be how safe cities will be. If they are safe zones, then you'll be able to have crafter-only players. If people are regularly getting ganked and looted in the streets of Ironforge, not so much. I didn't think the game was going to be THAT hardcore, though.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Threash on January 05, 2016, 03:44:35 PM
I'm fairly sure there are no safe zones in campaigns.  Also crafters are supposed to be necessary and in high demand, and since this is b2p there is that entry cost to shunt them to an alt account.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Merusk on January 05, 2016, 04:50:38 PM
Correct. Go back through the early part of the thread. High end mats can't go back to safe zones unlike eve. Also there are no safe zones in the campaigns, that's only at the "your plot" level and as above the high quality stuff can't be moved there, unless that's been changed.

The sheep must be willing to be preyed upon to partake of the best stuff.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Segoris on January 05, 2016, 05:44:16 PM
When was it ever said high end mats can't go back to safe zones? The last thing I saw (which was when exporting items back to EKs was first introduced) was a video or post saying that someone could purely be a crafter in their EK as long as they had people providing them materials. Also, the Crowfall Wiki  (http://crowfallwiki.com/index.php/Embargo) says nothing about rare mats not being able to be brought from the campaign to an EK. Only that the amount of materials can be limited based on a few factors of the player's contribution to a campaign to avoid people joining in the end on a winning side and loading up on easy resources in vast amounts. That is how I remember it always being explained as well.

Also, people are mentioning that other players can destroy what a player builds, they are just talking about in campaigns right? Seeing that is a big part of the pvp and siege mechanics. Other players can't go into another player's EK and destroy what's built there.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Tmon on January 05, 2016, 06:49:28 PM
When was it ever said high end mats can't go back to safe zones? The last thing I saw (which was when exporting items back to EKs was first introduced) was a video or post saying that someone could purely be a crafter in their EK as long as they had people providing them materials. Also, the Crowfall Wiki  (http://crowfallwiki.com/index.php/Embargo) says nothing about rare mats not being able to be brought from the campaign to an EK. Only that the amount of materials can be limited based on a few factors of the player's contribution to a campaign to avoid people joining in the end on a winning side and loading up on easy resources in vast amounts. That is how I remember it always being explained as well.

Also, people are mentioning that other players can destroy what a player builds, they are just talking about in campaigns right? Seeing that is a big part of the pvp and siege mechanics. Other players can't go into another player's EK and destroy what's built there.

The stuff you build in the EK is safe, anything brought into or built in a campaign world is subject to its rules.  A dev post I read recently mentioned that a crafter who never left the EK could still end up with a top of the line vessel simply by trading for the mats to make one.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Threash on January 05, 2016, 07:08:59 PM
When was it ever said high end mats can't go back to safe zones? The last thing I saw (which was when exporting items back to EKs was first introduced) was a video or post saying that someone could purely be a crafter in their EK as long as they had people providing them materials. Also, the Crowfall Wiki  (http://crowfallwiki.com/index.php/Embargo) says nothing about rare mats not being able to be brought from the campaign to an EK. Only that the amount of materials can be limited based on a few factors of the player's contribution to a campaign to avoid people joining in the end on a winning side and loading up on easy resources in vast amounts. That is how I remember it always being explained as well.

Also, people are mentioning that other players can destroy what a player builds, they are just talking about in campaigns right? Seeing that is a big part of the pvp and siege mechanics. Other players can't go into another player's EK and destroy what's built there.

The stuff you build in the EK is safe, anything brought into or built in a campaign world is subject to its rules.  A dev post I read recently mentioned that a crafter who never left the EK could still end up with a top of the line vessel simply by trading for the mats to make one.

Trading what? There is nothing in the EK's except very low level mats.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Segoris on January 05, 2016, 07:38:12 PM
The stuff you build in the EK is safe, anything brought into or built in a campaign world is subject to its rules.  A dev post I read recently mentioned that a crafter who never left the EK could still end up with a top of the line vessel simply by trading for the mats to make one.

Yeah, that's accurate with what I've read. I just misread this thread thinking people were commenting that anything they build was destructible, but I just missed where they did mention that was for during campaigns which is correct.

Trading what? There is nothing in the EK's except very low level mats.

Trading goods they've made using low level mats for higher level mats, then do the same with those higher tier mats. Devs had even said that while it's possible to go this route, it's faster to get involved in the campaigns or be in a guild that will funnel mats to the crafter.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Merusk on January 05, 2016, 08:03:20 PM
The EKs will matter if the campaigns that let you bring in pre-made gear are popular. If everyone only plays in the FFA, full loot, no bringing gear in worlds then there's no point in having a fancy crafting paradise EK because the shit you make there means fuckall.

Went looking for the info and found the above quote on P29. I had it backwards. You can flow good stuff INTO but not OUT of EKs.

Same end result, crafters must be in PVP+ zones to matter. Otherwise they get to sit in EKs robbing the PVPers blind.

Also they'd be laughing a lot because the BIG crafters would be attached to the biggest guilds. Therefore you're funding your killers.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Threash on January 05, 2016, 09:25:30 PM
I don't care what they say, if you don't like pvp you should really not even be looking at this game.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: palmer_eldritch on January 06, 2016, 02:50:26 AM
How much I like PvP depends a lot on how much dying hurts. Having said that, even losing all my gear might be okay if it's easy to replace.

It sounds possible that life in a full loot world will be a lot easier if you are part of a well-organised guild with crafters who are set up to replace your stuff.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Falconeer on January 06, 2016, 06:06:17 AM
Rust is a good example of an evolved pre-Trammel UO (with all the differences of setting and 3D vs 2D):

Losing everything is SUPER easy. You can work for days on building immense bases, then wake up in the morning and everything valuable is gone. They did a good job by making it so your walls will still be there since it's too much of a hassle (and a resource drain) for the assailants to blow up everything. So it's easy to "fix" and improve your broken base without having to start from scratch, but all your stashed loot is gonna be gone as there are zero safe containers. When that happens, and it does all the time, it really sucks. At the same time though, assuming you want to get back on your feet and retort, that's pretty easy to do too. One would think a game like this has no chances, wolves and sheeps and blah blah and solo players and double blah. And yet it works and sheep keep playing hoping one day to become wolves or at least to prey on someone else, or even play "good guys" like me and my friend, righting the wasteland one wrong at a time.

Obviously Crowfall has much more going on for it. There are goals (winning the campaigns), and character progression, which would make the game more bearable even when you "lose everything". But yes I agree with Palmer, it is vital that the power curve is somewhat shallower compared to other MMORPG, both when it comes to character progression and gear too. Fortunately, this is something they have stated multiple times, and if they'll hold true to it that would be a big step in the right direction. Limited power for items and charcters and decay on everything are fundamental staples of the game they are trying to make. Yet it is too soon to tell how Crowfall will be and I think that it's kind of ridiculous that we try to hold them accountable to statements made in the early planning of the game or even early stages of development like now. Because we all know too well that they can and would/will change it all whenever they want, even post release. So we are just speculating based on wishes (or anti-wishes) hopes and some weak declarations of intent, and wait and see is the only possible approach at this point.

What I believe is that they will make vast use of the different server rulesets to guarantee everyone* (*caveat: that is into PvP centered MMOs) will be able to carve some space for themselves. Even though the niche they are making the game for is growing, they have an interest in keeping all sorts of PvP players under their umbrella not just the most hardcore, and that's what the very different rulesets with their import/export rules (the stuff you can bring in and out of every server at the beginning and end of a campaign) are for.

I know they said that they want to give players the chance to be nothing but a crafter safe in their Eternal Kingdom doing nothing but crafting and becoming famous like that, and they go as far as mentioning the SWG entertainers which were the antithesis of PvP. We will see how that pans out. But to me that's an acceptable compromise: while I expect Crowfall to be completely devoted to PvP and built around it, I don't think it takes anything away from that to have some players living behind the trenches and in the safety of their castles (The Eternal Kingdoms) minding only the crafting and other sandbox aspects thanks to the materials and resources given them by their fighting friends. In short, crafters will be able to become awesome at crafting without ever fighting, but they will not have a cance to do that without friends doing the fighting for them.

Bottom lines (based on assumptions and the little we know now. Subject to change.):

- Crowfall will NOT force people to play a high stakes PvP all the time as you can just be a crafter in a safe zone. But if you don't like PvP you probably shouldn't play anyway as the economy will revolve around it.

- (Because of that) Crowfall will force players to socialize as you will always depend on other players for every activity. "Solo" will just not be much of a viable playstyle. While there could be some workaround for the more stubborn ones, if that's your favourite playstyle you probably should stay away.

You don't like this? Too bad, play something else.

Now, it would be easy to say that this is a mistake, but it's all about what audience you are trying to reach considering you can't reach everyone. Clearly, the Crowfall people would be happy with those 50k concurrent players and as I demonstrated in my statistics post above, that's a very realistic goal in a time like this and even more realistic now than when we started this thread only a year ago.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Merusk on January 06, 2016, 07:25:24 AM
I don't care what they say, if you don't like pvp you should really not even be looking at this game.

Agreed, but hey people are stupid. Doesn't mean they need to change their goal, only be prepared to call the stupid out on it.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Draegan on January 09, 2016, 02:57:34 PM
The EKs will matter if the campaigns that let you bring in pre-made gear are popular. If everyone only plays in the FFA, full loot, no bringing gear in worlds then there's no point in having a fancy crafting paradise EK because the shit you make there means fuckall.

Went looking for the info and found the above quote on P29. I had it backwards. You can flow good stuff INTO but not OUT of EKs.

Same end result, crafters must be in PVP+ zones to matter. Otherwise they get to sit in EKs robbing the PVPers blind.

Also they'd be laughing a lot because the BIG crafters would be attached to the biggest guilds. Therefore you're funding your killers.

Campaign bands have different rules. Some allow you to bring stuff in and out. Some allow nothing.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Slayerik on January 15, 2016, 01:40:29 PM
I went from doubtful to cautiously optimistic.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Falconeer on January 16, 2016, 07:17:58 AM
More on vessels and corpse... corpse looting.

Quote
MMORPG: With the notion of player bodies being fully lootable objects, does that mean a player will "lose" their chosen looks for their character if they lose their vessel on the more hardcore campaign worlds?
J. Todd Coleman: You mean in the situation where the vessel is lost (or destroyed completely)?
Well, yes -- I should make it clear, however, that you would have to knowingly put yourself into a situation where that could happen. Complete vessel loss will be limited to the most dangerous (and, of course, most lucrative) areas of the game.

MMORPG: When someone "scavenges" a new body as a crow, how does that work exactly? Is it basically a character creation process, with some snazzy animations of your crow digging?
JTC: The scavenging part will happen in the 3D world -- it's really part of the exploration loop: you explore the world and find a tomb or a graveyard and find the new vessel(s). At this point, you haven't really initiated character creation -- the vessel is just a (rather large and unwieldy) inventory object. It can be picked up, moved, traded, use as a crafting reagent... all the things you would expect from an item that you find in the world.
Once you have acquired the object, there are a number of ways you can use it. You can possess it, of course, or you can break it down ("scavenge" it for parts) to use in crafting other items. You can also use these raw materials to modify or improve your current vessel (assuming you have the correct skills). We added this last one because some players want to have that traditional feeling of attachment to a single character, and never lose it. Allowing players to scavenger parts from more rare vessels and upgrade their current one gives a way to stay competitive with the same character.

MMORPG: Can players switch between their chosen bodies at will, since they're inventory items? They just equip and unequip like a suit of armor?
JTC: No, there is some friction involved in changing vessels, it's not something that you can do instantaneously.

MMORPG: With the account keeping track of all your skills, how do the vessels (bodies) have their stats determined? Is it sheer RNG, or is that where crafting comes in?
JTC: Skills are tracked at the account level. If you spend a lifetime training with two-handed blades, your immortal soul carries that residual knowledge into every new life. (In game terms, this means that you will get the benefit of that training across all your characters, to the degree each vessel is capable of mastering that skill.)
Attributes, i.e. Strength, Dexterity, etc., are dictated by the vessel (including any talent and discipline runestones you have applied to that vessel). You may be incredibly skilled with an executioner's axe, but your ability to wield it will be severely blunted if your vessel doesn't have the strength to wield it.
There is a degree of rarity involved in how vessels are dropped, but it is primarily location-based so it’s not as random as you might expect. The best vessels are going to come from the more dangerous campaign worlds, in keeping with our general design philosophy of "higher risk, higher reward". Crafting end the economy system are the methods that we use to level the playing field. We expect a thriving economy of vessels and vessel components to give players who don't want to brave those worlds a way to stay competitive. They will just have to specialize in another good or service so that they have something of value to trade.

MMORPG: Since there's a whole crafting tree behind vessels (ew, crafting bodies), does that mean you can "deconstruct" a vessel to get the parts needed? It makes me think you get to play out your Frankenstein fantasies in Crowfall.
JTC: Yes, technically it's called 'scavenging'; it's actually the same process that you use to break a longsword down for raw materials.

MMORPG: What would the "resources" for vessel crafting be like? I'm cringing already.
JTC: Yeah, it's grim.  We're likely to limit this these recipes to particular disciplines (sub-classes) like "Necromancy", though, so the players who elect to trade in this market should have a pretty good idea what they are getting into. 

MMORPG: Will players have to re-customize their character each time they enter a new vessel? (Hoping for saved templates here)
JTC: Yes, but remember that you don't have to move to a new vessel, you can use parts from acquired vessels to upgrade your current one. 

MMORPG: We know that vessels will be subject to decay, like weapons and armor. Is your vision that most players repair them or replace them regularly?
JTC: I think this will vary from one player to the next.  Some players will collect a lot of them, and treat them as disposable assets. Others will become very attached to one (or a few) and repair and upgrade those avatars forever. We tried to make the system flexible enough to accommodate both play styles.

MMORPG: Will players always have access to their favorite archetypes in this system?
JTC: The use of the word "always" makes that question hard to answer. Will they have access? Yes. Will it always be free, instantaneous and easy on every world? No. 
If you want to play a centaur, you’ll have to find an appropriate graveyard. How challenging (and dangerous) that will be will depend on which campaign world you are on and your ability to navigate the ongoing thronewar at that time.

MMORPG: How will this system with the VIP perk of having early access to new archetypes?
JTC: We haven’t exactly settled this, yet. As with all of our VIP rewards, the goal is to find that delicate balance point where VIP feels valuable but isn’t given an advantage (in terms of power) over non-VIP players.
One thing to remember, though: you can trade VIP tickets to other players for in-game goods and services. So these benefits aren’t only for “people who pay us”, they are for “people who contribute to the game” – that could be with a monthly subscription or it could be by establishing yourself as a master crafter, or a mercenary, or a broker of rare artifacts… or as a necromancer! … and trading that service to other players.

MMORPG: Can players flip back and forth at will from vessel to vessel during a campaign?
JTC: At will, no. Can they change within a campaign? Absolutely.

MMORPG: How much of an advantage will a legendary vessel be compared to a common vessel?
JTC: Our power curve is much more flat than most MMOs. Even a veteran player in full gear should be worried if they get caught in an alley by four mid-level guys.
Vessels are set up on a diminishing returns curve, just like items and skills (and practically everything else).

MMORPG: Since players are able to import vessels into a campaign, how are these safe from player looting upon death? What about the discipline stones to rebuild the character?
JTC: It depends on the campaign rules. Vessels are converted back into items when you die, and therefore they follow the looting rules of that campaign. On one side of the spectrum you have no loot campaigns (so they are completely safe and you can pray to the gods to get them back), and on the other end they are dropped to the ground and it’s up to you, or your friends, to retrieve them.

MMORPG: Can vessels obtained during a campaign (via crafting, looting or scavenging) be stored safely for use later in the campaign or are they at the same risk as other items/materials?
JTC: Items that are brought in (via your import) are safe until you pull them out your import and into the campaign. Items (including vessels) that are collected can be stored, but you have to transport them somewhere safe first. Until that happens, they are at risk – just like a tonne of stone, an elven blade or a recovered artifact.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Falconeer on January 21, 2016, 05:25:31 PM
Ever wondered how big decisions in the development of a MMORPG are made? Be a fly on the wall for ten minutes (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2P2GFP_39qU&feature=em-uploademail).


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Falconeer on January 22, 2016, 04:07:14 AM
This is really, really interesting. A chart that shows the availability of resources. As you can see, you won't be able to farm any resource higher than tier 4 in your own super safe Eternal Kingdom, and even that will be ultra rare. As you go up in the hardcore-level of a campaign, you will be able to find better resources whereas the tier 8 ones will only be available in the loot-all free-for-all perma-lose campaign known as "Dregs".

Not sure if this is final, but it sounds intense. Higher risk = higher reward.

Also, new and improved FAQ about parcels: http://crowfall.com/en/faq/parcelbuilder/

(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/3584773/CROW%20EK_ResourceChart1.png)



Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: DayDream on January 22, 2016, 05:45:35 AM
Ever wondered how big decisions in the development of a MMORPG are made? Be a fly on the wall for ten minutes (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2P2GFP_39qU&feature=em-uploademail).

I'm so far beyond ignorance in this that it's absurd, and I shouldn't be talking.  Plausibly theater anyway, etc.


But that seemed like a really inefficient meeting.  Is that... normal?  It might explain some things, if it was.




Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Falconeer on January 22, 2016, 06:54:44 AM
Somehow, to me, they seem so confused about some elements, that I can't believe it's theatre. I'm afraid it's authentic.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Merusk on January 22, 2016, 02:29:45 PM
Ever wondered how big decisions in the development of a MMORPG are made? Be a fly on the wall for ten minutes (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2P2GFP_39qU&feature=em-uploademail).

I'm so far beyond ignorance in this that it's absurd, and I shouldn't be talking.  Plausibly theater anyway, etc.


But that seemed like a really inefficient meeting.  Is that... normal?  It might explain some things, if it was.

It looked like every creative meeting I've ever been a part of so it looked normal to me. There's a reason the successful guys in this area are able to collaborate but ALSO have a reputation for very strong opinions and forcing their vision through and you're seeing it.

Everyone loves to spitball, few love to say, "This is what it is. Go with it" because that means ownership of the idea if it fails.

The resource chart doesn't look like any sort of new news other than fixing how many tiers there are. It's stuff I was talking about pages ago.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Falconeer on January 22, 2016, 02:34:54 PM
Yes we knew about the resource chart because they have been saying that was the model for a year now, but it's nice to finally see it "laminated" and detailed.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Triforcer on January 22, 2016, 11:48:58 PM
Did anyone in UO actually use their rare/high grade armors and weapons for anything other than 10 on 1 seal clubbings deep in friendly territory?  If ore 1  is plentiful and there is any chance of corpse looting or fast decay, everyone will wear ore 1 90 percent of the time.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Tmon on January 23, 2016, 09:37:06 AM
Did anyone in UO actually use their rare/high grade armors and weapons for anything other than 10 on 1 seal clubbings deep in friendly territory?  If ore 1  is plentiful and there is any chance of corpse looting or fast decay, everyone will wear ore 1 90 percent of the time.

The return of the lootless army https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/rec.games.computer.ultima.online/BHw30Jf3UDQ%5B1-25%5D


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Segoris on January 23, 2016, 10:58:44 AM
Did anyone in UO actually use their rare/high grade armors and weapons for anything other than 10 on 1 seal clubbings deep in friendly territory?  If ore 1  is plentiful and there is any chance of corpse looting or fast decay, everyone will wear ore 1 90 percent of the time.

This is a bit different since you only have full inventory loot, not full inventory and equipment loot (depend on the setting of the campaign). By default and what we know right now, I think it's safe to say that in the Dregs with higher chances of equipment dropping then yeah the good gear will likely be used more conservatively. In God's Reach/The Infected if the campaign allows people to bring in loot it will be the best armor to use at all times.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: schild on January 23, 2016, 01:37:38 PM
100% authentic and 100% worthless and inefficient. The number of worthless meetings I've been in game dev surpasses all other industries I've been in combined.

You have to remember, most game developers couldn't cut it doing anything else. And design by committee is what allows a team to support one persons rise to mediocrity, where funding and accolades exist.

Anyway, game development fucking sucks.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: palmer_eldritch on January 23, 2016, 02:53:45 PM
I really hope it ends up that you can export the best ore out of the dregs so that any crafter can buy it and anyone can buy the items made from it. Let the hardcore players get rich and key everyone have a chance of owning the gear if they can grind up enough gold.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Segoris on January 23, 2016, 03:44:49 PM
That's what the whole embargo system (http://crowfallwiki.com/index.php/Embargo) is. A way to take loot from the campaigns and make them tradeable with anyone, with limitations based on how well you/your guild did. Basically, the limitation is to prevent people joining a campaign at the end of it and loading up on mats when they didn't really help.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: DayDream on January 24, 2016, 04:37:27 AM
I had a feeling that was the sort of thing I was looking at.  And it does explain to me, with the wonderfully clarity that only comes from seeing it yourself, exactly why so many obvious design errors are made, dates are missed, and budgets blown to smithereens.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Falconeer on January 27, 2016, 10:10:21 AM
A fly on Crowfall studios' wall. Part 2 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4RT90Vb5m7o).


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Threash on February 04, 2016, 11:28:03 AM
Whatever they did on their last update made the controls a lot better.  Had a lot of fun playing a few games of hunger dome this morning, while before it was just frustrating.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Falconeer on February 05, 2016, 04:36:26 AM
My experience wasn't any better. Granted, I had 180 ms ping, but I've never had that many delay in ANY game before. I assume this is because it is still all server-side, which is good to counter cheating, but at the moment, after the famous "controller rework", it is still all just a very VERY bad tech demo. I will give it a go tonight on the EU servers and with much lower latency, but damn I have to be honest combat so far, between sad animations and insane unresponsiveness, is quite the disaster. I really hate to say this.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Threash on February 05, 2016, 07:36:31 AM
Did you play it before?


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Falconeer on February 05, 2016, 08:08:21 AM
Yes, and it was 10 times worse. Still...  :uhrr:

Anyway, I'll comment again after the EU test.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Falconeer on February 05, 2016, 01:06:28 PM
Tried again on EU. 40ms ping. The lag is gone which means the biggest excuse is gone too. It's pre-alpha, and I want this game to succeed so bad that I am clearly biased in favour of it, but what they have so far is a joke  ( more :uhrr: )


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Merusk on February 05, 2016, 02:01:20 PM
No, the biggest excuse is that it's pre-alpha. The game is going to be garbage because that designation (should) mean it's not even ready for a full-on test. You're just making sure shit doesn't set the servers on fire or is actually able to run.

One of the dumbest mistakes developers ever did was letting marketing people sell alpha access after they saw the bitching Beta access would generate. Now we have pre-alpha and all the attendant "this is garbage" comments. Serves them right.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Falconeer on February 05, 2016, 02:59:49 PM
You are definitely right about that. But since pre-alphas have been around for a while now, we all know that any game can play and feel much better than this does even in its infancy, especially after they just reworked and improved the controller or whatever that is. When the action in game that is supposed to have a solid combat before anything else is so awkward and awful, and a lot of the testers seem to be happy with it, then it's a bit worrysome.

Two more things:

1) Without selling pre-alpha accounts, this project wouldn't exist so I am not sure they had any other option.
2) They certainly have enough time to fix it. I am just a bit nervous because I've been reading all the dev posts and the comments that they seem to listen to, and on top of playing like shit, I'm starting to think that they don't know exactly what they want to do and how to get there with the combat feel.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Merusk on February 05, 2016, 03:05:08 PM
Every pre-alpha is going to be different. Some will be bullshit marketing terms to make people feel special, some will be legit pre-alphas. Some will have janky half-completed systems thrown together, some will only tag on a feature at a time, depending on how their workflow is.

As for "it wouldn't exist without pre-alpha." The devs had an option, they just chose not to pursue it. I wouldn't either if there's a million suckers willing to hand-over their money so I didn't have to take the risk on myself.

Point number two? You just have to watch those fly-on-the-wall videos to know that's the case.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Threash on February 05, 2016, 10:06:55 PM
I don't get the gloom and doom, i thought it was fine.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Falconeer on February 06, 2016, 01:38:48 PM
Maybe it's more obvious for some classes. There's no feeling of hitting anything, there's no flow between the animations, the Centaur for example has a wind up animation on a lot of skill which is intentional and the opposite of of "responsive", and when you do the most basic attack with left mouse you slowly advance with each hit. Meaning that to kill a mob you have to hit, then move back, then hit, then move back. And this is a perfect example of their confusion as this was a change they introduced as a result of some players complaining the combat was too static.

Now every one of my complaints could be argued over, but the reality is that the combat feel is just terrible. Pre-alpha or not, the fundamentals are alarmingly missing in a way that seems the result of cluelessness more than technical immaturity.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Triforcer on February 09, 2016, 06:43:09 AM
SB-type games don't need good combat, they just need not-bad combat with a really really good meta game overlay.  I still wish they would have done tab targeting and concentrated on the SB aspects.  You aren't going to revolutionize MMO pvp on the micro level with 6 million, even if you didn't spend a cent on anything else.


Title: Re: Crowfall aka Play2Crush aka Shadowbane II aka Nostalgia Online
Post by: Falconeer on February 09, 2016, 10:01:08 AM
I would have agreed years ago, when there were less games, less distractions, and more focus. Now, everything needs good combat. If an experience is not at least smooth then not enough people are gonna bother for more than a month. Also, this attitude is the wrong o