I9 is live

[eldaec]

So don't collect them?

They are there for people who want them, it you allows to set or ignore your own goals, I can't possibly see what you can possibly complain about the badge system for.

And how is any of this different to arbitary level markers in a computer game?

[Glazius]

IO's and the entire Invention system was really not what I was looking for, as its basically a PvP tweaker tool moreso than anything else,

Man, what the hell are you going on about?

IOs are seriously a major shattering blow to the existing idea of "plan out enhancements 100 percent ahead of time, follow plan, replace every 5 levels".

IOs are potent enough at level 25/30 to never slot anything again, and enough at 45-50 to make it possible to 2-slot something that "should have been" 3-slotted.

Throw in the shifting availability and rarity of IO sets and you have a genuine opportunity for _conditional_ plans that change as a hero or villain moves through the game.

--GF

[Trippy]

IO's and the entire Invention system was really not what I was looking for, as its basically a PvP tweaker tool moreso than anything else,

Man, what the hell are you going on about?

IOs are seriously a major shattering blow to the existing idea of "plan out enhancements 100 percent ahead of time, follow plan, replace every 5 levels".

IOs are potent enough at level 25/30 to never slot anything again, and enough at 45-50 to make it possible to 2-slot something that "should have been" 3-slotted.

Throw in the shifting availability and rarity of IO sets and you have a genuine opportunity for _conditional_ plans that change as a hero or villain moves through the game.

But it doesn't fundamentally change what my character can do. There are some exceptions like the one that gives you stealth and if you have unlimited amounts of Influence you can now perma-Hasten and potentially other powers as well, but that just restores what was nerfed in ED.

Here's an example of what the Invention system could have been. In the last Holiday event you could earn a temp Golden Rings Hold power (the one we debated how many rings it had). Any archetype could use it. And that was cool and it was great fun seeing people throw holds around. Even for Controllers it was useful cause it made it easier to stack holds on bosses and the like. Wouldn't it be great if you could invent powers (temporary or otherwise) that would let you character do things it normally couldn't?

Even allowing us to create travel powers would be extremely useful since for many players that would free up a Power Pool selection that could be used for other things, thereby expanding their gameplay possibilites. Yes I know you can get temp travel powers in various ways but it's a PITA to get some of them and they are all temporary, plus you can't slot them and there isn't a Teleport temp power AFAIK (which is the only type of travel my character is missing, natch).

[Typhon]

Way back in the beginning, before archtypes, Jack/the design docs talked about Invention in a way that sounded similar to what you are talking about.  Origins were what determined your makeup in those days - mutants having access to broader/more powers that were weaker, science having access to narrower/more potent and another origin being like Batman that was better with invention (although it seemed like all hero's were supposed to have access to equipment).

Sounded like an interesting take, but they (obviously) couldn't make it work.  Point of this whole walk down memory lane is - for inventions to be decently powerful/interesting (my opinion of course, some folks think they are all that already), I think they would have had to be a part of the power-selection process from the very beginning (and make powers/inventions some sort of trade off)

[Glazius]

Here's an example of what the Invention system could have been. In the last Holiday event you could earn a temp Golden Rings Hold power (the one we debated how many rings it had). Any archetype could use it. And that was cool and it was great fun seeing people throw holds around. Even for Controllers it was useful cause it made it easier to stack holds on bosses and the like. Wouldn't it be great if you could invent powers (temporary or otherwise) that would let you character do things it normally couldn't?

The Gold Rings were fun (but maybe a bit too fun, since they said "hang on hang on we meant 12 days REAL TIME you can't have these forever" and then yanked them). Would they have been as nice if they were just a holiday-themed reskin of a power everybody could already make for themselves?

The epic/ancillary sets are supposed to "grow you laterally", even if everybody just takes the one that has Conserve Power in it - there's crowd control for blasters and melees, damage for controllers, armor for defenders. The villain patron sets do that too, if you don't mind the largely useless pet power (but everybody does).

Even allowing us to create travel powers would be extremely useful since for many players that would free up a Power Pool selection that could be used for other things, thereby expanding their gameplay possibilites. Yes I know you can get temp travel powers in various ways but it's a PITA to get some of them and they are all temporary, plus you can't slot them and there isn't a Teleport temp power AFAIK (which is the only type of travel my character is missing, natch).

There are two temp teleport powers that I know of, but they're both very temporary - there's a nictus infusion that lasts for 90 minutes real-time in Cap au Diable, which includes the warshade teleport, and there's a "save Rikti tech from skyraiders" mission heroside where you can pick up a teleporter that stealths you after you activate it.

And there's the 30-minute one you can buy if your side's in control of Siren's Call. But yeah, all extremely temporary.

I think the problem with having inventable temp powers is how to balance them encroaching on _actual_ powers. If your Defender had enough temp powers to work as a Controller all the time, say, or your Tank got enough to be a Blaster. And if everybody can invent a jetpack, why would anybody take Fly?

--GF

[Trippy]

I think the problem with having inventable temp powers is how to balance them encroaching on _actual_ powers. If your Defender had enough temp powers to work as a Controller all the time, say, or your Tank got enough to be a Blaster.

One solution would be to limit the number of these "special" inventions you could have at one time.

And if everybody can invent a jetpack, why would anybody take Fly?

Fly you can slot and with the set IOs you can get other side benefits as well. For these special travel power inventions you could set them up so they there weren't quite as good as a slotted Fly power in exchange for not taking up a power pool slot. E.g. you could have, say, a level 10 jetpack invention power that would be somewhat slower than an unehanced Fly, a level 25 one that would be the same as an unenhanced Fly and a level 40 one that would be like Fly with one SO Fly speed enchancement. Or something along those lines.

[Valant]

IO's and the entire Invention system was really not what I was looking for, as its basically a PvP tweaker tool moreso than anything else,

Man, what the hell are you going on about?

IOs are seriously a major shattering blow to the existing idea of "plan out enhancements 100 percent ahead of time, follow plan, replace every 5 levels".

IOs are potent enough at level 25/30 to never slot anything again, and enough at 45-50 to make it possible to 2-slot something that "should have been" 3-slotted.

Throw in the shifting availability and rarity of IO sets and you have a genuine opportunity for _conditional_ plans that change as a hero or villain moves through the game.

--GF

With all the technicality aside, Im saying that, in my opinion, IO's did nothing but add a micromanagement tool on my enhancing experience, and did not add to the fun factor at all in this game. I could see that, if IO's made me significantly stronger, the benefit of having such a system. But already being maxed out in Hamios, my character could not really get that much stronger..maybe an extra 1.5-3.0 resistance in some powers, and another +10 % off my recharge times and regen..Other than that, it just not remarkeable enough to keep me around- nor a lot of my friends that play.

Trust me- people will activate their account back, and then stay with the 'two months back and cancel again' trend NCSoft cannot get out of...

But, certain people are a glutton for micromanaging and tedious punishment in MMO's, all the while companies are sucking their dollar in for a process thats not even fun. Im not one of those individuals that will be caught in that predicament, so my account will go on cancellation status until NCSoft proves they would like to keep me as a customer by adding something fun to their repetative game for once.

Issue 10 is supposed to be content and storyline patching and some fluff, but Im hearing from some sources that its not even lvl 50 content. If its not, I really dont see how CoH maintains even its current subscriber base, because lvl 50's have been needing some love for quite awhile now and have virtually been ignored (with exception of the Khledian patch, which was like a 'thanks but no thanks' type of situation.

[Strazos]

In case you missed it, all of these games are just schemes to keep people subbed for as long as possible.

[hal]

Cox is interesting as what they do well they do much better than any one else in their space. Hero creation is great fun. What burns people out IMHO is the lack of tilesets and the grind. And ya, it is fun taken in small doses. I am a recurring subscriber. Its just curious to see something so darn right yet the game is not engaging for the long haul.

[Valant]

In case you missed it, all of these games are just schemes to keep people subbed for as long as possible.

And some are vastly more tolerable than others in terms of fun...though right now, most of them suck....


* Patiently waits for October *

[Strazos]

Fun is subjective. I'd rather play CoX than fucking WoW.

That being said, I haven't played at all in at least 2 months.

[rk47]

Cox is interesting as what they do well they do much better than any one else in their space. Hero creation is great fun. What burns people out IMHO is the lack of tilesets and the grind. And ya, it is fun taken in small doses. I am a recurring subscriber. Its just curious to see something so darn right yet the game is not engaging for the long haul.

I gave it another trial run with a friend with 10 days referral. On my 3rd day it's pretty fun, and influence is easier to get with all the salvage trading going on I manage to upgrade to full DO & A mix of IOs at lvl 17.

But basically things start to slow down a lot at 20+ It's a shame really for them to be holding on to 'longer grinds = longer subs' belief. otherwise people will keep coming back for more AT powersets instead of telling themselves 'No, I don't want to go through it, I'm too tired of it'.

As someone already mentioned the difference in IO is not that much from top end, but I'm more excited about acquiring temporary power inventions and things like that. :)

[hal]

It can be fun. Of that there is no doubt. There is something to be learned there. But ya, the grind . The same maps. Push the same buttons over and over. COX is a very good game and it has both positives and negatives to teach us. Very positive at what it does, it does better than any have before it. negatives are more easily understood. Repetitive is not great fun. A pick up group in the hollows to do frostfire can be as fun as any MMORPG I have played. Of course it can be a very frustrating experience as well.

[Glazius]

It can be fun. Of that there is no doubt. There is something to be learned there. But ya, the grind . The same maps. Push the same buttons over and over. COX is a very good game and it has both positives and negatives to teach us. Very positive at what it does, it does better than any have before it. negatives are more easily understood. Repetitive is not great fun.

Lemme quote myself from a year and a half ago here:

The only time I worry about getting to the next level is when I've got a few pixels left on the last bar after I finish off a mission. And while in some senses I'm aware I'm just going through warehouse after warehouse of mobs, I'm too caught up in the combat to care. Positioning matters, line-of-sight matters, both are controllable parts of every combat that can be affected by something as simple as a stack of crates to hide behind, and just about every powerset has something to take advantage of one or the other.

That's still true. I don't know exactly why it should be that I get a kick when I time it right to catch the wanderer in with his core group and take 'em down with fireball/fire breath, or when I get the range just perfect on Ripper and it cuts through a whole line of enemies, or pick exactly the right guy in the middle of the pack to pelt with Howl so the cone hits everything, or land a Gale that blows one mob back onto a walkway and two more just beyond it and down to the warehouse floor, or catch two bosses with one taunt.

That's what keeps it fresh. Just the chances for those little tiny victories.

--GF

[rk47]

yes. keeping AT fresh method for me is to reroll at 20. I don't consider taking those passive fitness powers as a must, cause they don't offer a new 'dimension of play' like taking other powers does.

[Llava]

Not in the same capacity, but it's hard to argue that having much more freedom with endurance consumption doesn't change the gameplay.

[Typhon]

I liked all of my heros better after they had endurance, and a few, I didn't like at all until they had endurance.

[rk47]

I think it has more of the issue of 'difficulty level' you play missions at and also there's the problem of endurance with classes that has a lot of toggles, I've levelled a scrapper to 50 before and his Dark Armour toggles were horrendously bad on the end-drain. It was really unfun gimping yourself on the 'cool-power' choices early on just so Stamina can get in, so I've been avoiding that sort of toggle heavy sets in my future alts.

Eg: rolling a Energy/EM Blaster I've yet to up my difficulty level at all, not that I need extra XP or Challenge to make the game more fun. I didn't notice the endurance drain even in groups with pink minions and red Lts.

[Trippy]

There are very few power combinations that are not more fun to play if you have Hasten and Stamina. Standing around twiddling your thumbs while you wait for a power to refresh or your endurance to tick back is not fun. Having to waste 3 power selections in your teens/early twenties to get Stamina also really sucks, as you said. At least Hasten has no prerequisites.

[Lantyssa]

I can deal without Hasten.  (Although I can understand people wanting it with Dark Melee.)  I can't deal without endurance, so every character except my Mastermind ends up with it.

[rk47]

I've just discovered you can actually vendor some I-Salvages for better prices at stores than Auctions. So I simply scanned through the Uncommon & Rare salvages and set a buying price below the vendor set prices of 1000 (uncommon) and 5000 (rare). It's an easy way to earn influence after a long day of mission grinding, you just collect all the bought out stuff and sell it off to vendor. Or, keep some for future use.

Question: Aside from Wentsworth, is there another way to store my I-Salvages? I only have space for 32. Pretty limited.

[Trippy]

Question: Aside from Wentsworth, is there another way to store my I-Salvages? I only have space for 32. Pretty limited.

Did you mean the Vault Reserve?

[UnSub]

Question: Aside from Wentsworth, is there another way to store my I-Salvages? I only have space for 32. Pretty limited.

Did you mean the Vault Reserve?

There's a Vault Reserve in the Pocket D, in King's Row, you can get one for your SG / VG base, in case you didn't know. They are marked on the map.

[Trippy]

There's no team (i.e. shared) base Invention Salvage storage is there? Like there is for Inspirations?

[UnSub]

There's no team (i.e. shared) base Invention Salvage storage is there? Like there is for Inspirations?

I don't think so.

[Glazius]

There's no team (i.e. shared) base Invention Salvage storage is there? Like there is for Inspirations?

Nope.

Ostensibly because they don't want somebody to have more than their personal storage space to use for market-cornering.

Anyway, Vault Reserves are in _every_ zone with a Wentworth's/Scourge. And in Pocket D. And you can outfit your superbase with a nifty vault door but it's pricey.

--GF

[Trippy]

The problem is I am a pack rat in games. In WoW I had like 8 mule characters for everyone of my real characters just to store all the crap I was collecting. Now with Inventions in CoX it's trivially easy to fill up all your on-person inventory and your personal storage especially if you like to solo or duo. You can make mule characters in CoX but you have to level them to at least level 5 to get a reasonable amount of storage. I would rather just start my own "solo" SG, grind for some prestige, and build something to store all the crap in there.

[UnSub]

I've found the simplest way to keep my Invention Salvage in check is to sell off all the commons at the consignment houses or to just delete them. Drop them off for 5 inf a pop, pick up whatever you get for them and earn some badges at the same time.

On top of that, I craft relatively frequently, which also erodes my salvage levels. And inf levels. Only uncommons and rares make it to my Vault and then some of the more common uncommons (eg Silver) get sold off as soon as I need room.

[eldaec]

I've found the simplest way to keep my Invention Salvage in check is to sell off all the commons at the consignment houses or to just delete them. Drop them off for 5 inf a pop, pick up whatever you get for them and earn some badges at the same time.

I sell most of the common salvage to contacts, contacts will pay more than the market for almost all common salvage, and the majority of uncommon salvage.

[UnSub]

True, but I want the badges, which selling to contacts won't give.

[eldaec]

If you want badges....

1) Find salvage items on the market with an illiquid market - ie. very few buyers.
2) If you can find one with 0 zero buyers put up several buy orders for 10 items at 1 each (or 10 each if you are feeling generous), if you can't find one with zero buyers then just bid a bit below the going rate.
3) Come back in a couple of days when the orders have been filled.
4) Put all the salvage you've gathered back up for sale at typical market rates.

Seems like it would take a long time to get the badges if you just rely selling what you find.

[UnSub]

Not really - I've sold base salvage which I've got a heap of, I sell inspirations frequently for 1 inf and I sell common IO salvage if I'm near or at the salvage cap. I got my 250 items sold badge recently and am a good way into the next badge.

[eldaec]

I9 is settling in now, and you can start to see the effects on the way the game plays post 30.

Personally, I'm finding the grind reduced substantially.

It now takes about one evening's play with PUGs to get a level. On Sunday I went 40.5 to 42.5 in 5 hours.

Also, the IO thing gives you a bit more to think about in planning builds, and lays out a lot of smaller goals you can play toward.

YMMV.

[Trippy]

How does I9 reduce the grind?

[Glazius]

How does I9 reduce the grind?

Playing the market is one more thing to do.

But even if you don't want to do that, you have more things to shoot for than just the next power - namely, plain or set IOs and the parts to build them. Though getting the exact rare part you need is still something of a pipe dream. Regardless, this means more goals to accomplish in a reasonable amount of time which means more accomplishments per unit time which means... less grind. Assuming you want IOs.

Also, some of the set bonuses can reduce miss rate, recharge-based down time, and endurance-sink-based down time.

--GF