Hi-fi discussion thread

[Lt.Dan]

I have low-end hi-fi ambitions and am basically looking to buy and entry level set-up to play CDs, LPs, and radio.  I'd like a system that can fill a decent sized room but I don't need anything cutting-edge.  I'd like to buy components if I can but have had no luck finding decent reviews on-line (yay for cutting and pasting marketing blurbs).

So,

1. Should I look at hi-fi receivers or should I go with an AV receiver?
2. What should I be looking for in a CD player, Amp, and speakers?  (How will I not get ripped off)
3. Where can I find decent reviews/discussion on home audio?

Thanks

[Righ]

Decent, low-end and hi-fi are very subjective performance levels. What kind of budget are you thinking about?

1. Depends what you plan to do with it. How much critical AV listening do you plan on doing? Are you buying any new music in DVD-A or SACD surround mixes?
2. Not looking. Listening. Honestly, you cannot substitute for going out with a couple of choice discs and listening to them on different equipment. If something doesn't sound TO YOU like its worth more money, guess what - it isn't. :)
3. Tends to be better fairly high end. The lower end (or mid-fi as its often called by the elitist bastards) tends to be overrun with box-shifters. But you can actually learn a lot from the high-end purists, even though you have no intention of ever spending the sort of crazy money they do. So magazines like Stereophile, Stereo Times, Hi-Fi+, etc. But you really want to find your local specialist hi-fi shops and discover which ones will actually let you listen to stuff.

[Sky]

I love testing systems with Year of the Parrot by Primus. Best drum track in the world for listening to speakers imo.

I don't know about good audio equipment, I've always just made the best of what I could afford. I do need some decent speakers, but I always balk at the price.

[Nebu]

I'm a closet audiophile and would be glad to help, but I'm not sure how ambitious you're looking to get.  I sold audio equipment for 4 years in college where I became a serious 2-channel snob.  If you're looking for surround sound, I don't have much to offer.  I also build cables and have spent a lot of time with tube gear and hybrids, so I can speak to that a bit as well.  In answer to your questions:

1. Should I look at hi-fi receivers or should I go with an AV receiver?

I'd buy an amp and a preamp.  If you buy quality, you leave yourself the option of buying a second amp in the future to bridge or bi-amp for richer bass and better imaging.

2. What should I be looking for in a CD player, Amp, and speakers?  (How will I not get ripped off)

Quality.  What I look for is the break point where it takes a LOT more $$$ for a small improvement in quality.  I tend to focus the bulk of my purchase on a good amp, a preamp that won't color sound, and a pair of speakers that image well.  Speakers and the amp go hand in hand.  A good amp will bring out the best in the speakers.  CD players can be had pretty reasonably if you shop around.  I just picked up a second cd player for around $1k that I'm very happy with. 

3. Where can I find decent reviews/discussion on home audio?

I like Audiogon.  There are reviews and tips on everything from equipment to accessories.  Stereo Review does some more mainstream audio reviews and may be helpful. 

[SnakeCharmer]

$1,000 for a fookin' CD player???

Jeebus.  I apparently need to clean the wax out of my ears....

[Nebu]

$1,000 for a fookin' CD player???

Jeebus.  I apparently need to clean the wax out of my ears....

$1k is on the low end for quality equipment.  It's cheap if you enjoy music and consider that most last well over 10 years. 

The Wadia 860 goes for about $7400 retail and is like an audio orgasm. 

[stray]

I spend my cash on instruments and recording equipment/monitors, so I'm kind of an audiophile, I guess. But I'm sorry, a grand for a cd player is insane. I'd pay half a grand for good monitors, and a 10th of a grand at the most for a compact disc player. Not even that really, since I'd rather run tracks through a media player these days. CD Players can only function as juke to a small extent.

In fact, I'd pay more for a turntable than I would a CD player. There's only so much they can do to push out quality, and they barely have the utility to compete with media players. You're better off going crazy on a reciever and speakers.

[bhodi]

I put my money into my home entertainment center. It also can play music, which is cool.

[Nebu]

You're better off going crazy on a reciever and speakers.

I agree and said as much in my first post.  Amp, preamp, and speakers should be the majority of the budget.  

If you listen to music as more than background noise a better cd player does make a very definate difference.  It seems a shame to spend good money on an amp and speakers and then shove sound from a crappy cd player through them though.  It's all personal taste.  I like to sit down and listen to music when I get home from a long day.  Being able to close my eyes and hear good staging makes a quality recording come alive for me.  That's not something that everyone wants and/or values.  

It's an easy thing to demonstrate to people and I do it all the time.  I play a cd on my good cd player through my system and then connect their cd player with the same exact setup (cables, power cords, etc).  The look on their face when they hear the difference is priceless.

[bhodi]

Then again, great CD player + great amp + average speakers = average sound. I'd put my money in speakers any day of the week.

In the home theater world, I'd also comment that speakers last a lot longer than your receiver, so you're better off spending cash there, but that doesn't necessarily work for here.

[Nebu]

Buying on a budget:

1) Buy the best receiver and speakers that you can afford.  If you're stretched, spend the most on the speakers.  You won't regret it in the future if you decide to upgrade your receiver. 

2) Clean power > features.

3) Buy speakers appropriate for the room and place them properly.  Most people buy speakers that are far too big. 

4) Listen to as much of it as possible before buying.  Especially the speakers.  Ask about the return policy as equipment will sound very different at home. 

5) Bring along a cd that is typical of your music tastes.  Too many people demo speakers with jazz/classical music and then go home and listen to rock. 

6) Quality over gadgets.  My preamp is little more than a selector and a volume knob.  I wouldn't have it any other way. 

[Righ]

Source equipment is very important. When you're dealing with digital equipment the two most important considerations are the quality of the DAC (digital to analog converter) and the stability of the power supply. An audiophile bargain CD player will focus on these two aspects before raising the bar with expensive circuitry, high tolerance components, etc. If you are going to use a computer as a source component, you basically need to find a way to pass the digital audio to an external DAC, because computer DACs are generally not audiophile quality.

[Lt.Dan]

Thanks for the replies. 

I'm a total noob at all of this and am really starting from a very low base.  I'm really only looking at entry level systems but I'm 99.9% sure I want to shift from the all-in-one system we have now.

I think the first thing I should do is take along a couple of CDs to an audio hi-fi specialist and see what I like the sound of. 

One thing I've never known anything about is the preamp.  What does it do and why do I need one?

[stray]

I'm going to piss everyone off here and say you don't need a seperate preamp.

Or rather, you just need an intergrated preamp/poweramp. Don't listen to these guys -- they're elitists. Get yourself a "fake" elitist system -- Something from the properly named Pioneer Elite Series of products, for example. 


As for your question, a preamp, to put it simply, is just a first stage step in boosting a raw/low level audio signal's gain. The second stage is the power amp. From there, the sound is output to speakers. All stereos have them -- so it's not anything you can consciously avoid. It's just that most home stereo products have these components integrated in the tuner/reciever. Further, you can still get quality that way, so it's not like I'm suggesting that you get something shitty.

In the recording world, there are more sophisticated preamps than that (say, in guitar amplifiers -- the preamp stage is what gives different amps their unique sound characteristics -- it's why a Marshall sounds different than a Vox, or vice versa.. etc., etc..), but for home audio/listening purposes, they're basically just the first step in boosting your audio source into a listenable form.

[Righ]

A pre-amplifier amplifies stuff to line level. Since most digital components are already at line level and most modern pre-amplifiers have dispensed with phono (record player) circuitry, they rarely do level amplification these days. What they do is provide the switching circuitry and voltage gain. The power amplifier provides the current gain for driving the speakers. There's no real harm to having an integrated amplifier - but the circuitry providing the current gain will benefit from being on a separate power supply from the circuitry providing the voltage gain. Some higher-end integrated amplifiers have separate power supplies for each part of the amp. The main advantage afforded by two boxes is the ability to upgrade one part of the amplifier at a time. NAD, Creek, Audiolab and Denon all make pretty awesome integrated amplifiers, for example.

[Tige]

One thing to remember is where this system will be.  Near windows, type flooring, height of speakers etc etc.  Don't drop a huge chunk of change on a system that will not sound like it did in the listening room with proofed walls and acoustic ceiling.  Distortion will kick in at a lower level with a less expensive system however nowadays that threshold is pretty damn high.  By the time you are getting distortion the neighbors are knocking. 

[Nebu]

I'm going to piss everyone off here and say you don't need a seperate preamp.

Or rather, you just need an intergrated preamp/poweramp. Don't listen to these guys -- they're elitists. Get yourself a "fake" elitist system -- Something from the properly named Pioneer Elite Series of products, for example. 

It's a common misconception Stray.  I'm not an elitist, I just like what I like.  I've worked in the audio industry for years, been a signed recording artist/songwriter, and been part of a speaker design company.  I've listened to thousands of different speakers, amps, preamps, etc. and can assure you that they all have a different audible quality to them.  If people are unable to hear the difference, I encourage them to not spend the money.  For those that can, audio equipment is like wine or anything else... you buy that which pleases your tastes.

[stray]

Hey, there's nothing wrong with admitting you're elitist.  It's not a bad word.

I, too, work with audio. Used to do full time sound design work, work odd jobs at a local university, and am a musician like yourself. I don't have the experience you do, but I do know my way around a bit (more from a recording perspective though).

I'm not saying there's not a difference between audio components. You misunderstand me. I'm saying it's overkill to suggest that to a guy who's just stepping up from a shelf system. 

[Nebu]

I'm not saying there's not a difference between audio components. You misunderstand me. I'm saying it's overkill to suggest that to a guy who's just stepping up from a shelf system. 

This is where we disagree.  I happen to feel that buying mediocre equipment as a stepping stone is a waste of money if listening to music is an important part of your life.  I don't advocate going hog wild and buying Mark Levinson gear, but you can buy VERY good equipment for just a little more than most mid-fi equipment costs if you do your homework.  Starting with a good pair of speakers, a solid integrated amp, and a decent cd player will change your whole approach to music.  Quality gear also will last longer if properly cared for. 

People will spend thousands on a fancy television and think nothing of it, yet buying quality audio gear makes me an elitist?  I don't get it.   

[stray]

There isn't really such a thing equivalent in the TV world to high end audio.

[Nebu]

There isn't really such a thing equivalent in the TV world to high end audio.

Shows you what I know.  My tv is 10 years old and is barely used.

[stray]

There are hi-end tv's of course, but they don't scale up in the same way audio does. The really expensive TV's are still mainly expensive because of size. Not features necessarily (i.e. you can get the same features in smaller models). 1080p with high contrast ratio, for example, is the top end, quality wise. From there on, it's all about size. Audio has a higher ceiling, if you will.

[Nebu]

There are hi-end tv's of course, but they don't scale up in the same way audio does. The really expensive TV's are still mainly expensive because of size. Not features necessarily (i.e. you can get the same features in smaller models). 1080p with high contrast ratio, for example, is the top end, quality wise. From there on, it's all about size. Audio has a higher ceiling, if you will.

Maybe cars would have been a better comparison.  Thanks for the education. 

[Numtini]

I like Nebu's advice. I'd suggest most of these folks are spending way more money than you want to :) They're talking high end and I think you're looking more for something better than the "More Watts = Bigger p----" junk at Best Buy.

Poke at the reviews in Stereophile magazine, then look at the brands they cover. They have a buying guide issue and you can find some cheap stuff in it occasionally. Pick stuff that fits your budget.

Speakers are what actually makes the noise, so it's worth spending. Also placing them appropriately and making sure they're solidly grounded (physically as in not rattling) can make more difference than you would believe.  I'd look at speakers from PSB, NHT, Polk.  Or just look at stores that carry these brands.  (if you have a small room, it's hard to beat the PSB Alpha series at least for classical music. )

I would look at a receivers/CDs from a quality company like Denon or at more pricey NAD. If you want AV stuff, they have those options. If you don't have a surrounI used to say for less check Yamaha and Marantz, but looking at the Denon site, their low end is inexpensive enough to not bother.