A64 VS P4

[SurfD]

Still shopping around for my new PC.  Pretty much got everything put together, but someone I work with brought something up, so I am again looking for some info from the people here

(and before someone stupidly posts a "Educate your damn self" reply, I fully intend to check the review sites.  That in no way however prevents me from asking the opinion of people here)

Anyone have any experience with the new Athalon 64's and their price/preformance comparison vs a similar power P4?

I am interested in finding out if the A64 is actually a good, stable, viable alternative to going P4.  I have always stuck by intel, but if I can get enough compelling evidence supporting it, I may switch.

[Trippy]

Anyone have any experience with the new Athalon 64's and their price/preformance comparison vs a similar power P4?

For game playing there's no contest, the A64 beats the "comparable" P4 (even the EE versions) up and down the product line in terms of absolute performance and performance/price. On the stability side I would trust an A64 chipset (K8T800 or nForce 3) more than one of the new Intel ones (915/925) since the A64 ones have been around quite a bit longer (even the newest ones are just incremental changes to the older versions). The older Intel's (865/875) are rock solid.

The only real advantages the P4 has are SSE3 which very few applications use (and which is coming to the 90nm A64s) and Hyper Threading which can give a noticable boost in performance to multi-threaded applications like video and 3D renderers. So if you use programs like 3DSMax or TMPGEnc a lot you might want to stick with Intel.

[geldonyetich]

I hear in order to take advantage of the 64 bit archetexture you need to use a 64 bit OS, such as the 64 bit version of Win XP.  However, I'm not sure how good the game support is for that.   You'd think Microsoft could implement a large portion of it into DirectX itself, and a number of products would take advantage of that automatically.   (Last time I had money to afford a CPu Upgrade, AMD XP 2000 were top of the line.)

[SurfD]

Hmmm, dont do any professional level 3d rendering stuff, though I would like to dabble a bit once i get my new rig set up.

Any what would be a decent P4 3.0 or 3.2 comparison chip from the A64 line?  I have next to no idea how AMD does their speed clocking numbers in comparison to Intel.

Damn, now I have to go scour around for Motherboard reviews, since all my info was based on purchasing an Intel chip.  Does Asus make good AMD motherboards?

[Trippy]

I hear in order to take advantage of the 64 bit archetexture you need to use a 64 bit OS, such as the 64 bit version of Win XP.  However, I'm not sure how good the game support is for that.   You'd think Microsoft could implement a large portion of it into DirectX itself, and a number of products would take advantage of that automatically.   (Last time I had money to afford a CPu Upgrade, AMD XP 2000 were top of the line.)

The A64 is not like the Itanium -- the A64 runs perfect on 32-bit OSes like Windows. Yes you don't get to use the 64-bit operations but that doesn't matter. There are no extra clock cycles involved with running in 32-bit mode with the A64 like there is with the Itanium. In 32-bit mode the A64 is still faster than the P4. It really makes very little difference that the 64-bit version of Windows XP is still in beta and drivers are hard to come by since the only commercial game I know of that's been compiled to run in 64-bit Windows is UT.

[HRose]

The 64 bits are a non-feature. There are tests using 64bit Windows and 64bit video drivers with the exact same performance. Same as comparing AGP 2x 4x 8x and PCI-Express. It's something that it isn't being used and it won't make a difference for the next 5-10 years.

The fact is that an Athlon 64 3200 (clocked at bit more than 2Ghz) performs the same or sensibly better than an Intel at 3.2 Ghz real. The only issue that I still don't understand is if the Athlon requires or not ECC memory.

[Rodent]

Recently made the jump over to AMD and I haven't had any problems with it so far. From what I hear AMD can be a bit squemish about what RAM you put into the comp but if it's true or not I can't really tell, my Samsung DDR PC333 has been working as intended (tm).

[ahoythematey]

Tom's Hardware Guide rocks my face

Helped me decide on a lot of stuff for my upcoming purchase.

[Trippy]

The only issue that I still don't understand is if the Athlon requires or not ECC memory.

The Socket 940 Opterons and A64 FXs require registered (aka "buffered") DRAM which come in both ECC and non-ECC versions. You have to check the Socket 940 motherboard to see if it requires ECC. The Socket 939 and 754 A64s and A64 FXs use non-registered or unbuffered DRAM. ECC is cheerfully ignored.

[Trippy]

Hmmm, dont do any professional level 3d rendering stuff, though I would like to dabble a bit once i get my new rig set up.

Any what would be a decent P4 3.0 or 3.2 comparison chip from the A64 line?  I have next to no idea how AMD does their speed clocking numbers in comparison to Intel.

It kind of depends on what games you like to play. An A64 3000+ beats the P4 3.2 in most standard gaming benchmarks. The A64 2800+ is like 50/50 against the P4 3.2.

[Trippy]

Recently made the jump over to AMD and I haven't had any problems with it so far. From what I hear AMD can be a bit squemish about what RAM you put into the comp but if it's true or not I can't really tell, my Samsung DDR PC333 has been working as intended (tm).

Yes some AMD-based motherboards can be a bit "finicky" about the RAM they will accept but that's also true with Intel-based motherboards. There's one Socket 754 motherboard that's particularly bad from what I've read which is the Gigabyte K8NS Pro. Might want to stay away from that one.

[stray]

Is the 64 bit XP backwards compatible with 32 bit programs, or is it a completely different OS altogether?

[Trippy]

Is the 64 bit XP backwards compatible with 32 bit programs, or is it a completely different OS altogether?

32-bit applications which aren't mucking around at the low level should run fine on Windows XP 64-bit. The AMD 64-bit chips have no trouble running 64-bit apps alongside 32-bit apps so there is no penalty on the CPU side and there's only a small interface layer on the Windows side. Device drivers, however, have to be rewritten to be 64-bit. Here's an older but still informative article on this subject:

http://www.gamepc.com/labs/view_content.asp?id=amd64xp&page=1

[SurfD]

hmm, well, quick price checking seems to sitck me with

Processor: AMD Athalon 64 3200+ Socket 754
Motherboard: Asus K8v SE Deluxe  (I like Asus, Its a brand thing)

Now, i just need to figure out what the best ram to stick in that combo is and i should be set.  Asus has a nice little thing of adding a "This ram has been tested and works" along the bottom of the motherboard description, only problem is they only tested 256 modules from Corsair, and I am looking at 512 pairs.

-----------------------

Tom's Hardware Guide rocks my face

Helped me decide on a lot of stuff for my upcoming purchase.

Now that is a damn fine link, going to have to read through it.

[Trippy]

hmm, well, quick price checking seems to sitck me with

Processor: AMD Athalon 64 3200+ Socket 754
Motherboard: Asus K8v SE Deluxe  (I like Asus, Its a brand thing)

Intel is dropping CPU prices next week which means AMD prices may be dropping soon as well.

http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=17935

Now, i just need to figure out what the best ram to stick in that combo is and i should be set.  Asus has a nice little thing of adding a "This ram has been tested and works" along the bottom of the motherboard description, only problem is they only tested 256 modules from Corsair, and I am looking at 512 pairs.

Just to confuse you a bit more, Socket 754 is a single channel memory setup meaning you don't need matched pairs like you do with a Socket 939 dual channel board. If you have the time you can pour through some of the user reviews on Newegg.com to see what has or has not worked for people with that board.

[tar]

Now, i just need to figure out what the best ram to stick in that combo is and i should be set.  

I like crucial when it comes to buying memory. The site will give you a list of modules guaranteed to work with your mobo.

Asus K8V SE Deluxe

[SurfD]

Intel is dropping CPU prices next week which means AMD prices may be dropping soon as well.

http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=17935

Then again, you can play the wait for price to drop a bit game for the rest of your life.... Any idea exactly how long that would be before a possible AMD price drop?  I could maybe survive 2 weeks, and I suppose I could start buying pieces now and get everything but the Processor, and then wait for the price drop, it all depends on how long I have before my sister decides she really wants my current stuff.

I also noticed the Single vs Dual difference on the mobo discription.  Still, I shouldnt have any problems buying a pair of identical 512 meg Single channel DDR 400 sticks and popping them in there, should it?

Thanks for that link Tar

[Furiously]

If you are buying a AMD socket 939 or and Intel 915/925 chipset (I don't recall the socket offhand), I understand Intel is having some heat issues. AMD looks a bit better for future upgrades at this point if you plan on getting a faster CPU later. (That being said, no AMD PCI express right now where Intel has it. Supposidly a few months away for AMD).

I'm playing the waiting game until there is a AMD PCI express MB and then I plan on spending more money then I want to on new memory, video card, CPU and motherboard.

[SurfD]

hehe, I am already planning on spending more money then I really want to on the setup I am looking at.

I very breifly considered a Socket 939 amd chip, then gave that idea a big FUCK NO, after realising that at the absolute least I would be looking at $700+ Canadian for just the motherboard and processor (the fucking cheapest 939 processor goes for almost 500 bucks, and the next one up from that was 1k or some rediculous shit like that)

[Ezdaar]

I just got an A64 3000, nforce 3 250 board and 1 gig of normal ram from newegg for $400.

The CPU standard clock is 2ghz however I have it running at 2.5ghz with no problems and stock retail cooling. The fellow next to me at work has the same chip with a different board and ram and the exact same results.

The board is a Chaintech VNC-250, there's a review on ocworkbench.com. It was $75 from newegg which is a steal for an nforce 250 board. The only thing it lacks is 7.1 sound and gigabit ethernet. It has standard 5.1 and 100mbit.

I've only had it for a night but it's been rock solid and fast as hell.

edit: Since I think you're in San Diego, the friend got his at Frys down off Aero Dr. and it was roughly the same price, perhaps $20 more. Different board but same chipset.

[Furiously]

thats about $700 canadian isn't it?

[NiX]

$518 CAD
With ontario sales taxes: $600

Whenever I ask here for advice I like to repeat "Canadian" over and over again. Newegg isn't cheap for us. We're paying pretty much the same thing with conversion/shipping.

[Furiously]

There's a 90% chance you live within 90 Minutes of the border....

[NiX]

Yes, but that's money in gas too and more time than I'm willing to spend getting computer parts.

[Trippy]

Intel is dropping CPU prices next week which means AMD prices may be dropping soon as well.

http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=17935

Then again, you can play the wait for price to drop a bit game for the rest of your life.... Any idea exactly how long that would be before a possible AMD price drop?  I could maybe survive 2 weeks, and I suppose I could start buying pieces now and get everything but the Processor, and then wait for the price drop, it all depends on how long I have before my sister decides she really wants my current stuff.

Normally AMD drops its prices the same week. However, AMD has just started shipping 90nm A64s, starting with the notebook chips this month and moving on to the desktop chips next month. I'm not sure if that'll change when they announce their price cuts.

I also noticed the Single vs Dual difference on the mobo discription.  Still, I shouldnt have any problems buying a pair of identical 512 meg Single channel DDR 400 sticks and popping them in there, should it?

Yes that'll work fine. I mentioned the single channel thing in case you prefer single DIMMs (i.e. a single 1 GB DIMM).

[SurfD]

Just a quick question, as I have pretty much decided on all my shit.

I found a place that has A64 3200 for a really good price.  It is, however, the 512kb L2 cache model, rather then teh 1mb cache model  (Newcastle VS Clawhammer, i think the codenames are).  Anyone know if the difference of about 50 or 60 dollars in the price between the 1/2 mb and 1mb cache models is anything signifigant?

My new, reivsed purchasing specs look something like this now:
 
AMD PROCESSOR ATHLON 64 3200 SOCKET 754 (512kb l2 cache)
ASUS K8V SE Deluxe SOCKET 754 Motherboard
2x KINGSTON KVR400X64C25/512 VRAM 512MB 400 (kingston website reccomends it as tested, and the company i am buying from only do Kingston, some generic stuff, and OCZ, which was a bit expensive)
2x WD-WD2000JD Harddrive (200Gb S-ATA)
 
Anyone know if Western Digital (or S-ATA harddrives in general), might be coming down in price in the near future?  If so, I might just get one HD, and purchase the second later.

[Trippy]

Just a quick question, as I have pretty much decided on all my shit.

I found a place that has A64 3200 for a really good price.  It is, however, the 512kb L2 cache model, rather then teh 1mb cache model  (Newcastle VS Clawhammer, i think the codenames are).  Anyone know if the difference of about 50 or 60 dollars in the price between the 1/2 mb and 1mb cache models is anything signifigant?

A64 3200+ 512K L2 Cache = 2.2 GHz clock speed
A64 3200+ 1MB L2 Cache = 2.0 GHz clock speed

Since they have the same speed rating, AMD feels that over their range of benchmarks the extra 512K cache in the later is offset by the higher clock speed in the former but it will vary from application to application (some are more "cache miss" sensitive than others).

I have not seen a head-to-head comparison of the two A64 3200+s though there may be some out there if you dig around enough. There are benchmarks that compare the A64 3000+ 512K 2.0 GHz with the A64 3200+ 1MB 2.0 GHz and you can sort of extrapolate from there to estimate how the extra clock cycles would change performance.

[SurfD]

Cool, thanks for the info.

That pretty much kills off all my questions.  Now to just purchase the thing, hit my brother up for a ride to the shop (like hell i am paying to get it shipped when a 20 minute drive is much cheaper) and pray to god it works when I plug it all together :)

[MrHat]

Not to sound like a total n00b but is that ram dual channel and are you taking advantage of the dual channel ram?

I think a saavy bud of mine was saying that putting in 2 512MB 333Mhz chips dual channel would up their speed to 400Mhz?

or something.

[Trippy]

Not to sound like a total n00b but is that ram dual channel and are you taking advantage of the dual channel ram?

The motherboard SurfD is buying (or bought) does not support dual channel memory. Socket 754 motherboards are single channel only.

I think a saavy bud of mine was saying that putting in 2 512MB 333Mhz chips dual channel would up their speed to 400Mhz?

or something.

He's just overclocking his system. The extra performance boost you get from dual channel memory vs single channel is from the fact that the CPU can grab memory data from two DIMMs at the same time which doubles the theoretical maximum memory bandwidth. It's sort of like how RAID 0 works, if you are familiar with that.

[TripleDES]

Regarding the people that say the AMD64 doesn't have any advantages:

Double amount of GP and FP registers, plus native 64bit integer ops.

These things will speed up games quite a bit if used. kthx.

[Sky]

Don't the AMD 64 bit chips also have an on-die memory controller, whereas the Intel chips are still using an off-die solution?

[Trippy]

Don't the AMD 64 bit chips also have an on-die memory controller, whereas the Intel chips are still using an off-die solution?

Yes that's correct. The on-die memory controller lowers memory access latency by quite a bit compared to off-die memory controllers.

[Nebu]

Ok, I hate you all.  I'm now looking at the AMD 64 chips as an upgrade for my new system.  Do any of you see a good break point as far as performance for the dollar goes?  I've looked at the 3000 and 3200, but I wonder if that's high enough up the chain to really get the best benefit.  

Any input appreciated.

[Trippy]

Ok, I hate you all.  I'm now looking at the AMD 64 chips as an upgrade for my new system.  Do any of you see a good break point as far as performance for the dollar goes?  I've looked at the 3000 and 3200, but I wonder if that's high enough up the chain to really get the best benefit.

For the Socket 754 A64s the 3200+ 512K L2 Cache is at the "sweet spot" right now. Moving to the 3400+ entails a large (relative) jump in price.

You should check the benchmarks to help you decide if that'll be fast enough for you, though a lot will depend on the video card you will be using as well. At the moment the 3400+ is the fastest Socket 754 CPU so if you wanted an even faster one you'll need to move to the Socket 939 platform.

Edit: Fixed typo