Edumacate yo' damn self

[HaemishM]

Where did I ever say that I "hate America?"

I'm goddamn proud to be an American. I'm thankful to my personal God that I don't have to live in a place that gets bombed to shit every few months, that lets me talk shit on the Interweb while getting paid for it, and that allows me to practice my own version of religion (or not) as well as any other number of things I enjoy as a free-beer-drinking redneck in America. I'm thankful for pr0n in vast quantities.

Just because I do not believe America acted rightly in Iraq, just because I do not support George W. Bush and his cronies does not in anyway diminish my love of America. That does not make me sympathetic to the "turrorists." That's the kind of bullshit kneejerk reaction to criticism that has marred the current administration, IMNHYFO.

Do I call our troops baby-killer? Do I label our military as vile and venomous? No; I support the troops, NOT THE ADMINISTRATION. They are not one and the same. Anyone who thinks they are has taken America way too far down the line of some other failed and quite dictatorial regimes of past history.

[Merusk]

Yay, +points for making him defend himself instead of his issues.  You learn well, Ahoy.

[ahoythematey]

Honestly, the "hating america" query was a general comment, nothing directed at Haemish in particular.  I'm always under the impression, though, that it wouldn't particularly matter who is in office for some people; they actively look for mistakes made by our government or military and then use it to explain precisely why America is run by evil fascists attempting to conquer lesser states and rebuild them in our image.  These are the usually the same people that would openly compare Bush Jr. to Hitler if it wasn't such an obvious tell of their bitter hatred of an individual they know next to nothing about except for what the media has distorted for their puny, fragile minds incapable of nothing but parroting what Alex Jones and Michael Moore tell them to say.  Reread Fahrenheit 451.  Give the minorities and whining extremists what they want and you are left a world without books.

[Zaphkiel]

Honestly, the "hating america" query was a general comment, nothing directed at Haemish in particular.  I'm always under the impression, though, that it wouldn't particularly matter who is in office for some people; they actively look for mistakes made by our government or military and then use it to explain precisely why America is run by evil fascists attempting to conquer lesser states and rebuild them in our image.  These are the usually the same people that would openly compare Bush Jr. to Hitler if it wasn't such an obvious tell of their bitter hatred of an individual they know next to nothing about except for what the media has distorted for their puny, fragile minds incapable of nothing but parroting what Alex Jones and Michael Moore tell them to say.  Reread Fahrenheit 451.  Give the minorities and whining extremists what they want and you are left a world without books.

     So it wasn't meant to insult Haemish in particular, but everyone in general?  And that's better, is it?

    I've read Fahrenheit 451.   I can only assume you listened to the books on tape version read by Rush Limbaugh.   When it comes to fragile minds who parrot misinformation, he is the king.  And you are the pawn.

[stray]

I see what you're saying ahoy, but that could apply to Clinton haters as well. Or any ultra conservative. Same people, same bullshit. Different sides of the fence. It's called partisan. You'll always get a few unreasonable assholes whenever there's something worth being passionate about. Seems to be a problem with college kids too.

If you take a look though, there really isn't too much of that going on around here.

[ahoythematey]

Almost without exception, I cannot stand the Clinton haters.  I'm entirely in agreement with you, stray.

As for you zaph, you might want to take your prepackaged hate to another place and instead pay close attention to what Chief Beatty says to Montag.

[HaemishM]

FYI, since I'm being compared to a Bush-hater, let me give you some background.

I voted for Bush, Sr. in 1992. You know, when he lost. That was a good vote.

I remember Bush, Jr. from his days as part-owner of the Texas Rangers. I would have voted for him then, just on my admiration of his father.

2000 rolls around and we get his campaign against McCain. Not against Gore, mind you, McCain. Which was, IMO, one of the filthiest, nastiest, absolutely most dreadful uses of attack politics I've ever seen. Then he gets voted into office and his administration has been a fucking nightmare to me.

I cannot find anything of the genial person I liked as a part-owner of the Rangers over 10 years ago, nor can I find any of the strength or principled nature that I saw in his father. All I see is a jingoistic, angry cowboy with power.

Michael Moore, however, is a propagandaist, which may be even worse. He is a loudmouth retard, spouting half-truths and outright fabrications as if they were the gospel. He makes Bush seem palatable. I would prefer if instead of funding his propaganda, we pay to ship him, Rush Limbaugh, Ann Coulter, Tim Robbins, Susan Saranadon and others of his ilk to Africa to feed the starving masses. He should be good enough to fill the bellies of an entire Congo nation, the fat fucker.

Michael Moore makes liberals look bad like no politician ever could. Ralph Nader makes independents look bad like no propagandaist ever could.

[Zaphkiel]

Almost without exception, I cannot stand the Clinton haters.  I'm entirely in agreement with you, stray.

As for you zaph, you might want to take your prepackaged hate to another place and instead pay close attention to what Chief Beatty says to Montag.

    You might want to consider that the book was written during the McCarthy era.  There was anti-intellectualism coming from the right, and the left.  Just like now.  If you give power to large media corporations, you can get the same world without books.  Communism, Fascism, McCarthyism, they all wanted people stupid and obedient.   It can come from any part of the spectrum.  Not just from the people you're biased against.

[SirBruce]

Just for the record:

I have no personal recollection of Nixon or Ford ever being President, even though I was certainly aware at the time and most have been taught their names in school.  Carter was the first President I remember, and I remember just how bad he was.  I became politically conscious with the Reagan revolution and supported Reagan in 1980 and 1984.  While I grew up in a conservative household I did not really consider myself a Republican, nor do I now, but I certainly prefer them to the Democratic alternative 99% of the time.  I was eager to support Bush in 1988 and cast my first vote for him, but in 1992 I disliked the fact he broke his promise and so I supported Perot because I thought he could actually change the system.  Unfortunately he wigged out before the end, and it became clear he wasn't going to win, and the last thing I wanted was Clinton President.  I voted for Bush again at the last minute, but it was too late.  I voted Dole in 1996 and Bush, Jr. in 2000 and I'll probably vote for Bush again this year.

The fact is the Democrats haven't fielded a good moderate for President since 1960 except for Clinton, and Clinton's lack of personal character (and perhaps Kennedy's too, for that matter) was too much for me to accept.  If the Democrats could actually come up with a candidate who didn't want to raise taxes and actually had an honorable character, I might vote for him or her.

Bruce

[MahrinSkel]

We did a serious mindfuck on those guys. Pre and post-war Japan are two HIGHLY different cultures. Oh sure, it's not America Jr. There are regional differences. We certainly accomplished our goal. We came in, we destroyed the existing culture, and we put in place one better suited to our viewpoint.

Japan is...odd.  We've actually humiliated them into total cultural rebuilds twice.  There's a shit-ton of cherry trees in DC to commemorate the first, which resulted in the bugfuck crazy industrialized fascists that we then humiliated again in WW2.

Japan seems capable of engaging in total collective amnesia in a way that just doesn't make a lot of sense from the outside.  The studio behind the Pearl Harbor movie was terrified of pissing off the japanese, but it turned out they needn't have bothered.  The japanese seem to find WW2 about as relevant (and give it about as much attention in their history books) as the typical American would feel about the War of 1812, and has about as firm a grasp of what actually happened (look up the Canadian version of the War of 1812, if you want a real education in history).

--Dave

[Teleku]

     So it wasn't meant to insult Haemish in particular, but everyone in general?  And that's better, is it?

    I've read Fahrenheit 451.   I can only assume you listened to the books on tape version read by Rush Limbaugh.   When it comes to fragile minds who parrot misinformation, he is the king.  And you are the pawn.

And Michael Moore is the Queen.

Also, the Canadian version of the war of 1812 consist of Canadians, with absolutly no help from the British, fighting off the entire American army (numbering in the millions) using nothing but knives and beaver pelts.  What actually happened is alot more boring than either side makes it out to be (at least land wise.  Lots of great naval battles).  Mainly, we fought and killed indians in that war, not Canadians.  But for some reason, every Canadian I know goes off about that damn war like they actually had any great victories in it......

[Bunk]

We burned down your Whitehouse! We burned down your Whitehouse!

Heh, just kidding.  Honestly, the education I had on the war of 1812 from what I remember was fairly balanced.  We were taught that it was basically a war between the US and the British, and lots of Indians died.  Laura Secord ran a really long ways with a message, and made some really good pudding.  Oh, and there was a big fight in a field, and the British won that I think.

Hmm, I think I've been out of highschool too long.

[SirBruce]

It was a war where Canada and America both won and England lost.  Canada retained her territory, but America won the right to continue to exist and expand westward without British interference.  England, despite having tactically won many victories, got nothing save for the guarantee of Canadian borders.  It was a very confusing war all the war 'round.  No one side got everything they wanted.

Bruce

[Murgos]

By early 1812, relations with Great Britain had deteriorated and the Navy began preparing for war, which was declared June 20. Cruising off the Gulf of St. Lawrence on 19 August under the command ofCaptain Isaac Hull, Constitution encountered the Guerriere, , a fast British frigate mounting 49 guns. Twenty minutes later Guerriere was a dismasted hulk, so badly damaged that she was not worth towing to port. Hull had used his heavier broadsides and his ship’s superior sailing ability, while the British, to their astonishment, saw that their shot seemed to rebound harmlessly off Constitution’s hull — giving her the nickname 'Old Ironsides'. It was a dramatic victory for America and for Constitution. In this battle of only half an hour the United States "rose to the rank of a first-class power"; the country was fired with fresh confidence and courage; and union among the States was greatly strengthened.

Beating England at sea a few times did more for our world image than probably anything else in the first half of the 19th century.

[Boogaleeboo]

She's a really beautiful ship if you haven't had the pleasure of being in the Boston area to see her. The Navy spends a lot of money to keep her in tip top shape.

[Murgos]

Also check out the Constellation.  She is the last surviving Civil War era ship and is currently in Baltimore if you're into that kind of thing.

[geldonyetich]

Much of new york is not happy at the GOP today.   Looks like Jesse Jackson and Moore are being fingered for much of the motivation.  

Still, it's a fairly bad sign when as much as 250,000 Americans find sufficient motivation to walk around on hot streets and raise havoc instead of sit around in front of the TV all day.

So, how big was the protest before the Democratic Party Convention?

[SirBruce]

Republicans tend to "protest" in different ways, so the answer is, not as many.

Taking to the streets and marching is more of a Democrat thing.

Bruce

[Murgos]

Still, it's a fairly bad sign when as much as 250,000 Americans find sufficient motivation to walk around on hot streets and raise havoc instead of sit around in front of the TV all day.

Last numbers I saw were putting the actual count at well under 100k.  Still thats a lot of protesters.

[Dark Vengeance]

Much of new york is not happy at the GOP today.   Looks like Jesse Jackson and Moore are being fingered for much of the motivation.  
Still, it's a fairly bad sign when as much as 250,000 Americans find sufficient motivation to walk around on hot streets and raise havoc instead of sit around in front of the TV all day.
So, how big was the protest before the Democratic Party Convention?

How many different special interests are we talking about here, geldon?

AIDS activists, minority activists, environmentalists, anti-Iraq protestors, organized labor advocates, gay-lesbian-TS-TV activists, Michael Moore followers, Howard Stern followers, universal healthcare advocates, folks who oppose tort reform, advocates of stem cell research, pro-choice activists, conspiracy theorists (the ones who believe the stuff about HAL, or consider stuff like my avatar to be true), people who oppose Bush's National Guard record, veterans groups that support Kerry, folks who think that Bush "stole" the 2000 election, marijuana legalization gimps, and generic college activist groups that have nothing better to do next week. And I'm probably missing a few.

Granted, you've got a lot of crossover between those interest groups....but if you're talking 100,000 people, that's not much at all. Besides, how many of those people are from the swing states, as opposed to folks from Democratic strongholds like NY and CA? How many are from outside the traditional Democratic base demographics.....and how much effect will they have by protesting in a city and state that has been considered a lock for the Democratic party for the better part of the past century???

As much as I dislike agreeing with him, Bruce is correct that Conservatives do tend to protest in a different, less visible way. Democrats and liberal independents lend themselves a lot more to marching in the streets with poster boards and decades-old chants of "we shall overcome" and "What do we want? XYZ!! When do we want it? Now!".

While I'm sure that the 100k-250k are more than we've had at the RNC than in the last few elections (having the convention in NYC does lend itself to bigger numbers), this is nothing new. People have been protesting at the RNC dating back into at least the 60's...so given the challenges of the last couple years, and the amount of activism that is taking place, I'm suprised the numbers aren't even higher.

I just hope (for their own sake) that the protestors keep in mind that the best thing they could possibly do for the Bush campaign is to get violent. Yet again, a situation where remaining calm, rational, and logical in the game of politics trumps being an emotional zealot.

Bring the noise.
Cheers.............

[daveNYC]

The protest was made up of members of some 900 groups (so said good ole Fox 5).  This isn't the biggest protest planned though, my guess is they'll get about 500k for the big one.

The idiots are going to start marching from Union Square, that should be one hell of a train wreck.

[geldonyetich]

<Giant Overreaction>

rofl

Anywho, this was a largely peaceful protest.   Only 200 arrests were made, which isn't much considering you can be sure a number of rabble risers would want to join in.   Very impressive for numbers between 100k and 400k, depending on who you ask.

New York Mayor Michael Bloomberg said the march was peaceful.

"United for Peace and Justice have behaved responsibly, as have most of the marchers," Bloomberg said.

Acting like an overemotional zealot indeed.  You want overemotional zealot, point a finger at our commander in chief.   Him and his buddies would love to start World War 3, the way they're going at it.   Line up all the countries in the world as potential terrorists, and potential terrorists they shall become.  That's not what I call "homeland security."

[Dark Vengeance]

<Giant Overreaction>

rofl

You missed the mark completely. Read it with a calm, rational tone. That's precisely how I wrote it.

Anywho, this was a largely peaceful protest.   Only 200 arrests were made, which isn't much considering you can be sure a number of rabble risers would want to join in.

This won't be the only protest this week, but the point stands that if protestors get violent, it will only help Bush.

Very impressive for numbers between 100k and 400k, depending on who you ask.

I highly doubt they surpassed 250k....that's a LOT of people even in a city like NYC.

Acting like an overemotional zealot indeed.

Apparently reading comprehension isn't your strong suit. I didn't say that they WERE violent, nor did I say that they WERE behaving like emotional zealots. However, knowing that many of these groups are extremely emotional about this president, I think there is a substantial risk of violence. Again, nothing could help Bush more.
 

You want overemotional zealot, point a finger at our commander in chief.   Him and his buddies would love to start World War 3, the way they're going at it.   Line up all the countries in the world as potential terrorists, and potential terrorists they shall become.  That's not what I call "homeland security."

Unsubstantiated crap...and you know it. Now who is the one with an emotional overreaction?

You've made a sweeping generalization about our President, and then extrapolated it into this massive distortion of what he actually is....and the sad part is that you refuse to look at the issues and try to understand where the other side is really coming from. Again, it's sad...especially in a thread about properly educating yourself before you spew idiocy like this onto the forums.

But keep pointing at Bush and saying "Evil!!! Evil!!!"....because it does so much to help your credibility.

Bring the noise.
Cheers..............

[daveNYC]

I highly doubt they surpassed 250k....that's a LOT of people even in a city like NYC.

I'd bet the over on that one.  Good luck getting accurate stats though.

[Dark Vengeance]

I highly doubt they surpassed 250k....that's a LOT of people even in a city like NYC.

I'd bet the over on that one.  Good luck getting accurate stats though.

Maybe by the end of the week, but not the Saturday or Sunday protests that geldon was referring to.

EDIT: By the way, as of Wednesday....over 1700 protestor arrests (over 1200 on Tuesday alone), including 1 that got credentials as an RNC volunteer and managed to get within 10 feet of Cheney, and a group that went into a RNC youth rally and proceeded to stand up, shout slogans, and attempt to disrobe during a speech given by the White House chief of staff Andy Card (just after the Bush twins left the stage).

Bring the noise.
Cheers..............