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Author Topic: End game? Raids?  (Read 46990 times)
Falconeer
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on: April 05, 2007, 05:45:20 AM

I guess it's a bit too soon to have good answers on this, but I must admit I am curious.

Are there rumours, or better official words about the endgame and raids? From the max numbers of players in a raid up to what kind of high end stuff you can expect, I am interested so if you have links to posts, articles or whatever about it I'd like to read it.
Plus, with all the lore craziness out there, what kind of things are you supposed to whack at max level that aren't involved with the main story thing? I am not into Tolkien so the answer to this could be obvious but I have no clue.

Back to the original point: How's the endgame, if any, and beside Monster Play?


Modern Angel
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Reply #1 on: April 05, 2007, 05:55:03 AM

Let me put it this way: I have every confidence that Turbine can make an enjoyable, involving game as you level. Raiding of the sort that Blizzard has raised to an artform requires attention to detail and numbers which I have no confidence that Turbine can handle. My best suggestion would be to pretend that the endgame doesn't exist.

By the time I get there I'll have PotBS, Conan or Spore to fuck around with.
Falconeer
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Reply #2 on: April 05, 2007, 06:04:44 AM

Well, let's say I am just curious. I seldom reach the endgame in MMOs but even if just for 20 levels I need to know what kind of carrot I am running for.

Anyway that was my guess, about the non existant endgame. Just tried to be surprised.
Not today.

Pendan
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Reply #3 on: April 05, 2007, 10:37:35 AM

The raid interface currently supports having 4 fellowships. I can't remember the max size of a fellowship/group. 8? 10?

Tolkien lore has Belrogs and Dragons. Also have the option of facing just waves and waves of goblin, orcs, or the like. In an expansion Helms Deep could make an interesting raid instance.
zubey
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Reply #4 on: April 05, 2007, 10:48:37 AM

Sky
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Reply #5 on: April 05, 2007, 11:27:18 AM

 rolleyes
Falconeer
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Reply #6 on: April 05, 2007, 12:30:54 PM

Thanks Zub.

And Sky, what are you eyerolling me for?

Miasma
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Reply #7 on: April 05, 2007, 01:15:55 PM

I think the eyeroll was aimed at raiding not you.
Sky
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Reply #8 on: April 05, 2007, 01:34:34 PM

Yes. Turbine just did a bitch roll-over-and-take-it. I especially liked the part that told soloers they can choose not to partake in raid content. ORLY?

 undecided

I guess that's what you get when your game is trying to be WoW with Tolkein IP.

Pre-order cancelled.
Nyght
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Reply #9 on: April 05, 2007, 03:07:01 PM

Pre-order cancelled.

Sooner then expected but basically inevitable. I would have told ya, but  I figured you'd get there yourself before too very long.

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Trippy
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Reply #10 on: April 05, 2007, 04:03:32 PM

Quote
This isn't so much a philosophical change in our game, but rather an additional gameplay dynamic we have decided to include.
LOLers.
Cheddar
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Reply #11 on: April 05, 2007, 05:18:07 PM

Who gives a shit?

No Nerf, but I put a link to this very thread and I said that you all can guarantee for my purity. I even mentioned your case, and see if they can take a look at your lawn from a Michigan perspective.
Rasix
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Reply #12 on: April 05, 2007, 05:23:48 PM

Who gives a shit?

People playing LOTRO hoping for something different?   rolleyes

-Rasix
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Reply #13 on: April 05, 2007, 05:28:13 PM

Who gives a shit?

People playing LOTRO hoping for something different?   rolleyes

I did not mean about that; I was prefacing the inevitable snivelling from people who will not see the content.  Or something.

No Nerf, but I put a link to this very thread and I said that you all can guarantee for my purity. I even mentioned your case, and see if they can take a look at your lawn from a Michigan perspective.
Nyght
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Reply #14 on: April 05, 2007, 07:45:48 PM

I really don't think there is a great deal of angst. It's WoW, with LotR Lore, smaller with less solo and content. Believe me, it give me zero heartburn that most here won't like it.

Nothing to see here. Move along.

"Do you know who is in charge here?" -- "Yep."
Sky
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Reply #15 on: April 06, 2007, 07:23:48 AM

Exactly. I'm not surprised LotRO is moving toward WoW, it's all the mmogtards in /ooc talk about.

What's surprising is that I'm still enjoying EQ2, for the most part. I guess it's about the devil you know or whatnot.
Nyght
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Reply #16 on: April 06, 2007, 07:45:45 AM

Exactly. I'm not surprised LotRO is moving toward WoW, it's all the mmogtards in /ooc talk about.

What's surprising is that I'm still enjoying EQ2, for the most part. I guess it's about the devil you know or whatnot.

I guess I did slug it out all the way to 30 in EQ2. That a DIKU record for me.

I may get further in Lotro. Or not. The equivalent level is likely 40 or some such.

The main point being that there are enough different games now that diehard allegiance is almost completely a thing of the past except among a few.. ah.. diehards.

"Do you know who is in charge here?" -- "Yep."
Modern Angel
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Reply #17 on: April 06, 2007, 09:15:23 AM

And that's a good thing. I want to see the death of the fanboi. It's never going to completely happen but I can switch games with reckless abandon. They're games, not lifestyle choices.
Sky
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Reply #18 on: April 06, 2007, 09:42:02 AM

Well, that's the thing, there. It's so tired to see the same old mmogtard crap dragged out in every beta, and much worse to see companies capitulate (like the topic of this thread).

It's ok to not be WoW. Just make a good game that's profitable. There should be games that cater to hardcore raiders, casual raiders (if they exist), soloers, socialites, open-rules pvp, structured pvp, everything. Instead there are a few great niche games but mostly a bunch of halfassed attempts to please everyone.

And that sucks for all involved.
Hellinar
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Reply #19 on: April 06, 2007, 12:42:48 PM


It's ok to not be WoW. Just make a good game that's profitable. There should be games that cater to hardcore raiders, casual raiders (if they exist), soloers, socialites, open-rules pvp, structured pvp, everything. Instead there are a few great niche games but mostly a bunch of halfassed attempts to please everyone.

And that sucks for all involved.

Preach it, brother!

Tossing in every “good” feature every other game has just makes the whole thing bland. I suppose its the safe course when you have spent tens of millions on development. I guess we won’t see a decent range of games until some “game building system” like Multiverse is made to work. 

It seems to me that LoTRO would have been the ideal candidate for a “casual only” game. Instead, casual play is nerfed to allow for sixty hour a week play. Making it unattractive to a whole bunch of people who would play, but don’t want to put the rest of their life on hold to do so.  Bah!
Sky
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Reply #20 on: April 06, 2007, 01:58:57 PM

Also, the whole naming thing shouldn't be misunderestimated. The lore geeks were the core audience Turbine should've been shooting for. My supervisor was considering picking up WinXP so he could Boot Camp his mactel...just for the LotRO beta I gave him (from our PC Gamer sub at the library). He still might though I tried to talk him down, because he'd be one of those pissed about the mmogtardation.

Sure, it's niche, but a couple rp/lore only servers would've kept that game open for a decade. Last I checked he still plays Warbirds, fer crissakes. Loyal fans that wouldn't give a shit about nerfs, but won't stand for mmogtardation.

Ah, well. The lesson will be learned the hard way. Again.
Xanthippe
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Reply #21 on: April 06, 2007, 09:14:16 PM

Me, I like choices.  I mostly solo, but I do enjoy grouping up as well.  Even a raid now and then can be fun.

LOTR isn't just WoW.  There are some very different things going on.

I'm not looking for a place to live or a game to live on, I just want to have some fun when I do log on.

End game doesn't interest me.  Playing the game interests me.  If it's boring now, I won't play.

I'm having fun.  When it stops, I'll cancel, and if they toss in something new for me to try, I'll likely resub.  I've gone back to CoX 3 or 4 times and will likely revisit it yet again (although the door is closed on DAOC finally, I think - no real desire to play that one again).
Falconeer
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Reply #22 on: May 30, 2007, 06:36:16 AM

Any news on this?

I am lev 41 now and I must say I am very happy with the instances, the bosses, the scripted stuff and encounters in general.
Loved Great Barrows and enjoyed the hell out of Ivar and the Red Maiden. I am going to tackle Fornost and I must say the first part of it rocked. NOTHING REVOLUTIONARY, but definitely better than I expected/hoped.

I'd say I am pretty optimistic about a working and entertaining endgame and raidgame, but until I won't see it with my eyes I'll be cautious.

Anyone of you out there knows anything more on it?

cmlancas
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Reply #23 on: May 30, 2007, 08:29:44 AM

I think this is a good time to note that there are some posters on f13 that relate end-game raiding to punching themselves in the junk repeatedly, and some of us who just don't really give a crap either way. I don't think it is just to disparage a game simply because when you hit maximum level there is content that is not tailored specifically to your gameplay. I played Everquest, made it to 58 during the Velious age and only did a few Kael Arena groups -- but the gameplay is still one of my fondest memories when I think of MMOs. Extrapolating this idea to LOTRO, to simply say "This game won't get my $45 USD because it succumbed to the raid monster" is puerile. There is much enjoyment to be had in the game without the raid content -- I guarantee you this. I'd be willing to shell out two buddy keys to anyone who thinks that he/she cannot have fun in LOTRO because of the end-game content. I know that your opinion will be changed because you will have fun through your travels and you won't even make it to the end-game before your key is consumed.

That being said, I think you really have to weigh both sides of the issue as far as LOTRO goes. From what I hear, there are -lots- of things to do as a solo/duo/trio player. Reading through the official forums is a huge waste of time as most of it is mindless drivel, but the overall feeling I get in the game is that there is a ton to do (monster play, deeds, crafting {which I think is too easy}, titles) without running through all of the content in a week and getting stuck.

Well, at least I'm trying to run through all the content, but I'm still level 14 after a week.

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Falconeer
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Reply #24 on: May 30, 2007, 10:11:44 AM

cmlancas,

you admitted your fanboism elsewhere, and I am level 41 already so as I said I am on the verge of that "title" myself too.

But this thread is about endgame, and (eventual) infos about it. There's nothing wrong in enjoying a MMORPG and, at the same time, expect it to not be over when you reach the maximum level.
It's not like, by asking for endgame infos, I am implicitly saying that the game sucks or will suck.

cmlancas
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Reply #25 on: May 30, 2007, 07:34:46 PM

Fair enough. I'm interested to see the endgame too though. I tried to navigate the official boards, but it is impossible to glean useful information from it.


OMG Y AM I...... sigh. My eyes spew blood.

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Tmon
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Reply #26 on: May 31, 2007, 09:13:58 AM

The patch notes for the June patch say that there will be a 24 man raid instance included.  I'm not a raider so I'm guessing the endgame for me will be working on an alt or two and checking out whatever non-raid storyline content gets added over time.  Eventually (3-5 months from now if the pattern from previous games holds up) I'll let the sub lapse and move on to something else until they release an expansion box or something.
Hound
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Reply #27 on: May 31, 2007, 03:24:41 PM

The patch notes for the June patch say that there will be a 24 man raid instance included.  I'm not a raider so I'm guessing the endgame for me will be working on an alt or two and checking out whatever non-raid storyline content gets added over time.  Eventually (3-5 months from now if the pattern from previous games holds up) I'll let the sub lapse and move on to something else until they release an expansion box or something.

The way i read it raids are only one of the alternatives, just because it is there you will neither have to do it nor will you be gimped if you choose not too. That is going way back to this Developer Diary

http://www.lotro.com/article/130

Quote
o does this mean no more soloing?

Absolutely not! As LOTRO moves forward in development, we've taken a very hard, long look at endgame content. One of the many proven-successful elements that we came up with was raids. This will be a very important dynamic for kinships and players who enjoy grouping.

We recognize that different segments of the gaming population like different styles of gaming. Solo play, being one of those primary styles, is still very much alive and well. We're not attempting to replace solo play with raids and other group content. We are simply increasing your options, augmenting our previously announced plans with a whole new facet. Players who prefer not to raid will not have to do so. We feel that it's important to have endgame content that reflects the players' many different play styles.


Given the number of failures we've seen in MMORPGs, designers need to learn it's hard enough just to make a fun game without getting distracted by unnecessary drivel.
Riggswolfe
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Reply #28 on: June 01, 2007, 06:44:57 AM


The way i read it raids are only one of the alternatives, just because it is there you will neither have to do it nor will you be gimped if you choose not too. That is going way back to this Developer Diary

I bolded the most important part of this post IMO. Raiders are already screaming on the forums that the best loot has to come from raids. Period. That if you want comparable loot from another source then you just want the easy path. The question boils down to several things:

1) Will comparable loot be available from different methods? This is by far the most important question.
2) Will all of the really cool areas in expansions be raids? For instance, Moria. Every fanboy wants to see that place. Will it be raid only? What about Helm's Deep? This could be a make it or break it situation for lore lovers who also don't like raids. And I suspect this is a very high number of people.
3) Will future content be balanced to raiders or to non-raiders? This ties into #1. If raiding is the only way to get uber gear, how will future encounters be balanced?

"We live in a country, where John Lennon takes six bullets in the chest, Yoko Ono was standing right next to him and not one fucking bullet! Explain that to me! Explain that to me, God! Explain it to me, God!" - Denis Leary summing up my feelings about the nature of the universe.
CmdrSlack
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Reply #29 on: June 01, 2007, 07:41:17 AM

IMO, a good way to handle Helm's Deep would be to make a raid instance that is linked (possibly) to small group/solo tasks.  Basically, if people want to participate in Helm's Deep, they can do other tasks that make things easier for the raiders or something. 

I'm working on my first cup of coffee so that's all I have in the detail department.  But hey, it'd be kinda neat. 

Moria had better be not entirely raid....that'd suck.  I don't mind having to group to see Moria, but ffs, it's not like the Fellowship went in there with a raid group.

I traded in my fun blog for several legal blogs. Or, "blawgs," as the cutesy attorney blawgosphere likes to call 'em.
Johny Cee
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Reply #30 on: June 01, 2007, 08:03:19 AM

Moria had better be not entirely raid....that'd suck.  I don't mind having to group to see Moria, but ffs, it's not like the Fellowship went in there with a raid group.


-That's because they were keeping group spaces open for minstrels while Gandalf spammed the [LFF] channel.
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Reply #31 on: June 01, 2007, 08:13:22 AM

Moria had better be not entirely raid....that'd suck.  I don't mind having to group to see Moria, but ffs, it's not like the Fellowship went in there with a raid group.


-That's because they were keeping group spaces open for minstrels while Gandalf spammed the [LFF] channel.

Well, it was their fault for bringing along a gimp loremaster.

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pxib
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Reply #32 on: June 01, 2007, 10:16:53 AM

I've gotta agree. The fellowship was on an escort quest for a bunch of worthless hobbits who keep making noise and summoning waves of orcs and goblins. I'll bet they walked REALLY SLOWLY too. The loremaster did okay, but they would have had an easier time with a minstrel.

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Xanthippe
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Reply #33 on: June 01, 2007, 11:26:27 AM

I've pretty much run out of solo quests to do at 32.  I might have one more.  I have a shitload of group quests though, none of which I particularly want to do.  So I'm kind of not playing much this week.  The new patch should alleviate this issue for me.
Hound
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Reply #34 on: June 01, 2007, 02:14:58 PM


The way i read it raids are only one of the alternatives, just because it is there you will neither have to do it nor will you be gimped if you choose not too. That is going way back to this Developer Diary

I bolded the most important part of this post IMO. Raiders are already screaming on the forums that the best loot has to come from raids. Period. That if you want comparable loot from another source then you just want the easy path. The question boils down to several things:

1) Will comparable loot be available from different methods? This is by far the most important question.
2) Will all of the really cool areas in expansions be raids? For instance, Moria. Every fanboy wants to see that place. Will it be raid only? What about Helm's Deep? This could be a make it or break it situation for lore lovers who also don't like raids. And I suspect this is a very high number of people.
3) Will future content be balanced to raiders or to non-raiders? This ties into #1. If raiding is the only way to get uber gear, how will future encounters be balanced?


Some good points, and I agree with pretty much your entire post. I guess we will just have to take a wait and see approach at this time. This is my first experience with Turbine , however I have seen them dig in their heels a couple of times in beta and while acknowledging the forums basically told us to suck it up. They are still making gradual readjustments back toward the middle ground from the great super nerf patch from hell that they dropped on us just before release, and the boards were spammed with " I am canceling my preorder threads" when that occurred. I guess what I am saying is while it seems as if the Devs do pay attention to the community they stick to their guns on the overall development.

Given the number of failures we've seen in MMORPGs, designers need to learn it's hard enough just to make a fun game without getting distracted by unnecessary drivel.
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