WoW Patch... Fanboys Heads Explode

[HRose]

The whole discussion is about the content. What makes EQ (or DAoC) and WoW different is the quest system. In other games you grind, in WoW you follow a story.

The point is that quests are becoming hard to solo. Or not enough to just support the solo play.

There's obviously much more but the point is that with each mobs "power up" the content of the game goes more and more unbalanced.

And yes, it was more fun to play a few months ago without rest system, with a lot more exp coming from quests, with the animations in synch during combat and the possibility to fight easily more than one monster.

[Morfiend]

The whole discussion is about the content. What makes EQ (or DAoC) and WoW different is the quest system. In other games you grind, in WoW you follow a story.

The point is that quests are becoming hard to solo. Or not enough to just support the solo play.

There's obviously much more but the point is that with each mobs "power up" the content of the game goes more and more unbalanced.

And yes, it was more fun to play a few months ago without rest system, with a lot more exp coming from quests, with the animations in synch during combat and the possibility to fight easily more than one monster.

I also agree, with each patch the game seems to lose a bit of that "fun" that was so great.

As to making monsters to hard to solo, here is a quote form one of the devs.

I'll repeat the same thing I always do -

You will be able to solo to advance in the game with every class to level 60.

Grouping will ultimately be faster to level and will provide you with better loot.

In the event that beta balance does not accomplish these two stated goals, we will correct it. Don't panic!

-Eno

From a thread entitled "Blizzard dont make WoW like EQ".

[geldonyetich]

You will be able to solo to advance in the game with every class to level 60.

Grouping will ultimately be faster to level and will provide you with better loot.

I've no issue with this so long as grouping is noticably advantagous enough to go through the trouble of doing it, and the gameplay remains challenging in a group.

I'm tired of MMORPGs which support soloing on the grounds that often this is not the case.   CoH is a good example, where most players would rather solo since grouping is a poorly rewarded PITA, and in a big group of players half the players barely even get a chance to interact with the mobs before the mobs are blown to bits.

[El Gallo]

[
  To those of you in the beta, how's it going trying to fight "even-con" mobs? .

Beyond trivially easy.  With a lot of classes, you would really have to go out of your way (as in, go out on your porch for an hour or two with your character logged in) to die to most even cons.  That was yesterday, of course.  I was not online for the few hours the server was up today, and it has been down to fix patch bugs for a long time now.  Apparantly, during that few hour window armor was maybe not working and there were other bugs that made things much harder than expected.  

I have no doubt (and very much hope) that the difficulty level was jacked up somewhat, but I suspect that much of the current shitstorm (beyond the typical "the sky is falling" reaction to every change) is due to these bugs, amplified by the fact that everyone is cranky because Blizzard's new Bit Torrent client is an utterly worthless piece of shit and the download took forever,

When people get used to winning every solo fight by hitting random keys, and obliterating everything in groups with nobody ever worrying about aggro, and every mage spamming their max damage AE as soon as it refreshed with no consequences to obliterate instances in no time flat, they get cranky when that all gets taken away.

[HRose]

As to making monsters to hard to solo, here is a quote form one of the devs.

I'll repeat the same thing I always do -

You will be able to solo to advance in the game with every class to level 60.

Grouping will ultimately be faster to level and will provide you with better loot.

In the event that beta balance does not accomplish these two stated goals, we will correct it. Don't panic!

-Eno

Yeah. And here my reply:

Eno, come on...

In every game out there levelling is possible. The problem is "pacing". Till now WoW was a fun game because the pace was fast and balanced with quests/content. It's from a few patches that you are starting to disrupt this balance and add broken systems that are preventing the content to flow naturally.

This started back when you introduced the rest system.

Right now the progression through the game feels way less fun, both because you are making errors from the initial good purpose and because the lack of syncronization of animations is making the combat way more messy and chaotic than it is already.

[CassandraR]

My dream currently is for them to make a single player mmo like game, new content every month or so, no need to balance grouping versus soloing because there is no grouping. I wouldn't include npc henchmen because that'd just mess everything up again. Now if they did that and the game was actually good, I'd be in for a subscription for a good long while. Though adding a chat client or intregrated instant messager software to talk to other people that are playing would be a good move if you could turn it off.

Still have all the aspects of normal MMOs, crafting, fighting, questing, all that just make it all centered on one person playing in the entire world and everyone else being npcs.

[Trippy]

My dream currently is for them to make a single player mmo like game

[...snip...]

Still have all the aspects of normal MMOs, crafting, fighting, questing, all that just make it all centered on one person playing in the entire world and everyone else being npcs.

Wouldn't this just be something like Morrowind?

[AOFanboi]

Still have all the aspects of normal MMOs, crafting, fighting, questing, all that just make it all centered on one person playing in the entire world and everyone else being npcs.

Add a meta-layer, and you have the .Hack games for PS2. You play a player of a character in a MMORPG, and the plot is to discover the nefarious purposes of the people behind the in-game game.

[CassandraR]

No Morrowind was an horrible attempt something almost like that and I didn't like .Hack at all, was nothing like what I wanted.

And I'll be quiet to keep from derailing the thread.

[Soukyan]

As to making monsters to hard to solo, here is a quote form one of the devs.

I'll repeat the same thing I always do -

You will be able to solo to advance in the game with every class to level 60.

Grouping will ultimately be faster to level and will provide you with better loot.

In the event that beta balance does not accomplish these two stated goals, we will correct it. Don't panic!

-Eno

Yeah. And here my reply:

Eno, come on...

In every game out there levelling is possible. The problem is "pacing". Till now WoW was a fun game because the pace was fast and balanced with quests/content. It's from a few patches that you are starting to disrupt this balance and add broken systems that are preventing the content to flow naturally.

This started back when you introduced the rest system.

Right now the progression through the game feels way less fun, both because you are making errors from the initial good purpose and because the lack of syncronization of animations is making the combat way more messy and chaotic than it is already.

And it will continue to degrade as more and more is added/cut/adjusted to the game. It is an unfortunate by-product of the "never-finished game" paradigm. Once again I'll state that just because it's polished does not make it a good game. You can polish a turd all day and it'll still be shit. ;)

[personman]

I'm tired of MMORPGs which support soloing on the grounds that often this is not the case.   CoH is a good example, where most players would rather solo since grouping is a poorly rewarded PITA, and in a big group of players half the players barely even get a chance to interact with the mobs before the mobs are blown to bits.

I like the option to solo.

Most groups I'm in scale up their chosen mobs to match their abilities.  If a group blows away a mob before half the group can interact, they're probably getting crappy XP anyway and need to move on.

My problem with CoH is that at the higher levels mobs have more members and BAF much more easily.  This essentially rules out soloing.

[Sky]

Oh, man. Don't get geldon going on group vs solo again :P

[Soukyan]

Oh, man. Don't get geldon going on group vs solo again :P

/agree

[personman]

Oppression! Geldon, stop censoring me! ;-)

[geldonyetich]

Soloing is wrong and bad and stuff.

Actually, I've no issues with soloing so long as it doesn't negatively impact the group game.   When a MMORPG is balanced to support soloers, it is often done so to an extent that it damages the game experience for groups.    This makes going through the trouble of assembling a group more trouble than it's worth.    Grouping is a lead form of socialization in MMORPGs, and once you've thrown that out the window you greatly damage the MM portion of a MMORPG.

Really, if I wanted to solo all day, I could do so in Morrowind.

[Trippy]

Soloing is wrong and bad and stuff.

Actually, I've no issues with soloing so long as it doesn't negatively impact the group game.   When a MMORPG is balanced to support soloers, it is often done so to an extent that it damages the game experience for groups.    This makes going through the trouble of assembling a group more trouble than it's worth.    Grouping is a lead form of socialization in MMORPGs, and once you've thrown that out the window you greatly damage the MM portion of a MMORPG.

Have no fear, Blizzard has the EQ grouping formula down pat:

http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?FN=wow-general&T=237676&P=1

[Morfiend]

Soloing is wrong and bad and stuff.

Actually, I've no issues with soloing so long as it doesn't negatively impact the group game.   When a MMORPG is balanced to support soloers, it is often done so to an extent that it damages the game experience for groups.    This makes going through the trouble of assembling a group more trouble than it's worth.    Grouping is a lead form of socialization in MMORPGs, and once you've thrown that out the window you greatly damage the MM portion of a MMORPG.

Really, if I wanted to solo all day, I could do so in Morrowind.

Last patch it was perfict. There was areas where soloing was better, and other areas where groups where better. Like grouping, go to the grouping area (instanced dungeons).

Now from what I hear, mobs are very overpowered compaired to the PC, making solo almost impossible.

[angry.bob]

Have no fear, Blizzard has the EQ grouping formula down pat:

http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?FN=wow-general&T=237676&P=1

Oh for fuck's sake. Hurray, mandatory grouping to go into dungeons. Didn't the industry figure out with the batch of games currently in development that only total fags who want to force people to be their "friends" want forced grouping? If they stick with this it moves the game back into the "Don't even bother" category.

[schild]

If they stick with this it moves the game back into the "Don't even bother" category.

Heh, this is just _another_ reason I'm not going to bother beyond an open beta if there is one.

[Rasix]

It's like they want me to buy EQII...  like one of the mongoloids in that linked bnet forum post said, "WoW is becoming more like EQ than EQII is".  

I really dislike that I probably won't get to beta either of these(WoW or EQII) before they shove them out the door.  Both games have my interest but both worry me in that I feel both might miss my requirements by the narrowest of margins by falling to far into the "GROUP OR DEATH" paradigm.

[Riggswolfe]

[
  To those of you in the beta, how's it going trying to fight "even-con" mobs? .

Beyond trivially easy.  With a lot of classes, you would really have to go out of your way (as in, go out on your porch for an hour or two with your character logged in) to die to most even cons.  That was yesterday, of course.

Lol *rereads the post and laughs again* What game have you been playing?

[Merusk]

Have no fear, Blizzard has the EQ grouping formula down pat:

http://www.worldofwarcraft.com/thread.aspx?FN=wow-general&T=237676&P=1

Oh for fuck's sake. Hurray, mandatory grouping to go into dungeons. Didn't the industry figure out with the batch of games currently in development that only total fags who want to force people to be their "friends" want forced grouping? If they stick with this it moves the game back into the "Don't even bother" category.

Yummy... that's one fucked up class slotting template they've got going.

Druids able to tank and heal? I hear they can't do either right now with any decency. This one *might* be able to work as long as they keep druids from being able to cast in animal forms. The current lack of downtime in WoW means a tank that can naturally heal itself will only wind up saving cash vs time, which *would* have been balanced by the druid's need to buy mana potions if they'd stuck with the "no mana regen in animal form" thing.  Currently I think they'll just make more bank over the char's lifetime.

Shaman - only role is as "Secondary Healer"  WTF? "Ok so I get to heal, but not the tank.. just you other guys in case the tank sucks and can't hold aggro. Great."  Can they at least debuff, CC or deal damage to some extent? The other "secondary healer" class can at least tank.  To be delegated strictly to that role just speaks of a life of suckdom.

Warlock = crowd control?  That one will spark some outcry along the lines of,  "We don't want to be enchanters, we want to be like EQ Necros!",  I'm sure.  I don't think I really disagree with this slotting, since it's better than being a fucking mana battery.  Maybe add-in some buffs/ debuffs for grouping though.

They've got Hunter down in 'damage classes'. They're a ranged class with a pet for tanking/distraction and run buffs.  YOu can make spiders pets and train them in webs for 'rooting' abilities, I hear.  Hello COH blasters. Expect mucho bitching from the rogues when they figgure this one out.
(from what I'm hearing about hunters, I fully expect the big nerf bat to hit sometime soon as outcry swerves from the currently exploiting rogues to the absurdly overpowered hunters.)

[Trippy]

They've got Hunter down in 'damage classes'. They're a ranged class with a pet for tanking/distraction and run buffs.  YOu can make spiders pets and train them in webs for 'rooting' abilities, I hear.  Hello COH blasters. Expect mucho bitching from the rogues when they figgure this one out.
(from what I'm hearing about hunters, I fully expect the big nerf bat to hit sometime soon as outcry swerves from the currently exploiting rogues to the absurdly overpowered hunters.)

Hunters are actually gimped right now so they'll need to be buffed first before they get nerfed back down. The only pet ability they can learn is "Growl" (taunt). Hunters also can't use their missile weapons at melee range unlike every other missile weapon using class in the game and they apparently suck with melee weapons.

[El Gallo]

Lol *rereads the post and laughs again* What game have you been playing?

WoW.  Seriously, (prior to this last patch) killing the vast majority of level 1 mobs when I was level 1, level 10 mobs when I was level 10, level 20 mobs when I was level 20 etc etc up to killing level 44 mobs when I was level 44 (where I was when the patch came) was trivial.  I can't imagine anyone thinking they were hard if they were even sort of paying attention while they played.  

It is harder right now, but they have said that was unintentional (almost everyone has junk for equipment right now because of the massive changes to the loot system) and that if further changes need to be made to keep it so that a retarded monkey on crack could blow through every level solo again they will make those changes.

As for the balanced groups in instanced dungeons (that are intended to be hard, though they were mostly pretty easy before), duh.  It's a class based game.  90% of the content is outside of instanced dungeons (this includes outdoor areas and "micro dungeons", some of which are of decent size) and, as I said, you could solo from 1-60 with trivial effort prior to the last patch, and they have reiterated that every class being able to solo 1-60 is their goal.  I prefer the instances, but that is mostly because I prefer group tactics.  But I soloed a lot, because most weeknights I don't have time.

Schild, passing on WoW because the hard parts require balanced groups while patiently waiting for EQ2 sounds like a solid plan.

EDIT: This thread is why NDA's are a good idea.

EDIT 2: shamans do nice damage, have some quality enhancement skills and also tank quite well.  That list is very oversimplified.

[Soukyan]

... you could solo from 1-60 with trivial effort prior to the last patch, and they have reiterated that every class being able to solo 1-60 is their goal.  I prefer the instances, but that is mostly because I prefer group tactics.  But I soloed a lot, because most weeknights I don't have time.

This is a good thing. And yes, they need an NDA. This thread reminds me of the days of playing EQ. Nothing like looking at pages upon pages of balance "discussion" that would never make any difference on the game anyhow. ;)

[Riggswolfe]

WoW.  Seriously, (prior to this last patch) killing the vast majority of level 1 mobs when I was level 1, level 10 mobs when I was level 10, level 20 mobs when I was level 20 etc etc up to killing level 44 mobs when I was level 44 (where I was when the patch came) was trivial.  I can't imagine anyone thinking they were hard if they were even sort of paying attention while they played.  

What class are you? As well you're talking a 1 on 1 fight, when most fights eventually had an add. Man, you sound like such an EQ player. "I want to struggle in every fight!"

Schild, passing on WoW because the hard parts require balanced groups while patiently waiting for EQ2 sounds like a solid plan.

EDIT: This thread is why NDA's are a good idea.

EDIT 2: shamans do nice damage, have some quality enhancement skills and also tank quite well.  That list is very oversimplified.

I agree with most of this part though. Schild has a real kneejerk reaction when it comes to WoW but is salivating over EQ2. Personally I find that...mystifying. EQ2 looks intriquing, but it's SOE people. Be very careful when you believe all the hype they sling.

As for Shamans: my understanding is that Shamans are one of the more powerful classes in the game right now, it's just nobody complains much about them so the devs haven't gotten the nerf bat out yet.

Druids btw, can make damn good tanks. Their big issue as a healer is lack of a rez.

[schild]

Let's put it this way. I like Blizzard. I like the games they have created. I have been able to avoid the people who play their games up til now - because I fucking loathe them.

I do not like what SOE has done in the past. Fine. Did anyone see what happened in Planetside over the weekend? That 'bending' shit? Anyway, they have created an amazing in game event. This was not the same team that made EQ or SWG.

Basically

EQ != SWG != EQ2 != Planetside.

SOE just owns these properties - all the teams are different, particularly with Brad McQuaid gone. As far as I'm concerned Vanguard is EQ2 (the real successor to EQ2). I have no reason to believe EQ2 will be anything like EQ other than the world it's set in - which was never my gripe with Everquest.

Anyway - I have reason not to like WoW, the lack of an NDA exposed me to all those reasons. EQ2 has shown me nothing that actually gets my goat. Yet.

Edit: In fact - wtf does brand loyalty have to do with any of this? Must I remind you that waterthread became f13 and most of the people went to Corp because I R TEH DEVIL!!!111!!. I haven't run anything into the ground. What makes you think the EQ2 live team will (NOT SOE, EQ2 Live).

[SurfD]

Did anyone see what happened in Planetside over the weekend? That 'bending' shit? Anyway, they have created an amazing in game event.

Enlighten us, whatever it was, it sounds like it might have been interesting.

[Trippy]

Druids btw, can make damn good tanks. Their big issue as a healer is lack of a rez.

I don't know, I'm currently having some good chuckles with current Alliance rez situation which has Paladins running away like chickens so that they can come back to rez the party (Paladins but not Priests have invincibility spells in WoW unlike EQ where both classes have them). Giving Druids rez would sort of ruin the humor.

[Riggswolfe]

Let's put it this way. I like Blizzard. I like the games they have created. I have been able to avoid the people who play their games up til now - because I fucking loathe them.

I sort of understand this reason but disagree with it. You're gonna get douche bags in all MMOs. It's the pool griefers are pulled from. I also think alot of the truly annoying b.net kids won't be in the game because their mommies won't pay for it.

I do not like what SOE has done in the past. Fine. Did anyone see what happened in Planetside over the weekend? That 'bending' shit? Anyway, they have created an amazing in game event. This was not the same team that made EQ or SWG.

I don't play Planetside. Bending sounds interesting if you're implying some sort of sci-fi ish time/space thing or something.

Basically

EQ != SWG != EQ2 != Planetside.

True enough to an extent though I had thought alot of the EQ2 devs were also EQ devs. I may be wrong. Sadly, the part of EQ2 I like the most is that the devs have said it has little in common with EQ other than setting. I preordered it just in case. What the hell.

SOE just owns these properties - all the teams are different, particularly with Brad McQuaid gone. As far as I'm concerned Vanguard is EQ2 (the real successor to EQ2). I have no reason to believe EQ2 will be anything like EQ other than the world it's set in - which was never my gripe with Everquest.

On the other hand isn't Raph Koster in charge of games now or something? Creative Director or some crap like that. HAM may yet sneak into EQ2.

Anyway - I have reason not to like WoW, the lack of an NDA exposed me to all those reasons. EQ2 has shown me nothing that actually gets my goat. Yet.

Exactly. We know jack about EQ2 except some videos, and some dev claims. That's it. That's what I find so amusing. You're practically creaming yourself over a game from a company with a pretty spotty track record. And honestly, when I watch those videos I have mixed reactions. Like the characters swinging swords 5 feet from the monsters they are fighting.

Edit: In fact - wtf does brand loyalty have to do with any of this? Must I remind you that waterthread became f13 and most of the people went to Corp because I R TEH DEVIL!!!111!!. I haven't run anything into the ground. What makes you think the EQ2 live team will (NOT SOE, EQ2 Live).

Actually I don't know the history of the "great split".

I don't necessarily think the EQ2 live team will make a stinking pile of waste. If I did I wouldn't have preordered. BUT, you can be damn sure I'm feeling wary, and more than a bit stupid for preordering another game from SOE. I'm just wondering why you're not. You guys are supposed to be the jaded ones. Yet, so far, I seem to be one of the few that is feeling a bit cautious about EQ2.

[schild]

http://planetside.station.sony.com/news_story.jsp?story=63216

Enjoy

We're supposed to be the jaded ones? Yea, we're jaded with what we've played. Why am I not allowed to get excited about new games? I'm confused, is the hate still 'in?' Man, I fell off the wagon.

[Merusk]

To be fair to SOE, a lot of 'teh hate' for their games comes from EQ. Specifically from the McQuaid days of EQ.  While I still loathe the cockblocks that wound up in the game, it's proven to be a different game these days from back in the day.

Yeah, there's still core issues and 'flaws' that some folks won't like, but you can't lay those at SOE's feet.  They've made a reasonable effort to put some fun into the game vs the "OMG 1337 2000 hour eye-stabbing pain campfest" that was McQuaid's vision.  Fuck going to Vanguard if you ever hated old school EQ.

  Luclin was the last expansion under McQuaid and it's still the biggest pain in the ass to get to the endgame content.  PoP I've known casual players to get into the elementals through pickup raids.  Yeah, they're not going to get into Time until a few more expansions when they’ve got more levels, but it's better than the shit that was Vex Thal/ Ssra Emp camps.

I've enjoyed EQ since I went back after LDoN and not had to spend 6 hours a night online doing so.  I also managed to hit 65 in less time than it originally took me to get to 30, because there's plenty of good XP spots.  I only ground 2 levels when I went from 52-65, since I managed to earn most of it just dicking around with friends or doing LDoNs. Shit, if i blame SOE for anything in regards to EQ it's that they managed to make me have fun in a forced-grouping game.

Crappy CS, jerking folks around with shitty marketing schemes, lame assed 'time to slay the dragon' commercials. Sure, those are SOE's flaws and I'll agree all day how fucking asinine they can be with them. Releasing buggy 1/2-completed expansions and games knowing the masses will eat that shit up and pay for it.  I'll hate 'em for that, too.  

However, after playing EQ, Planetside and SWG, I know the teams SOE has are capable of developing vastly different game play experiences.  It's all about who the designer is and what the game's goals are.   Perhaps they can pull of their goals in EQ2. They'd be stupid to try and mimic EQ1, though, since nobody I talk to has designs on abandoning their chars and effort in that game for the same one with a prettier wrapper.

So really, I guess what I'm trying to say is. If you want to hate, then at least hate smart. Hate McQuaid for the game flaws, and SOE for their ridiculous business methods.

[MrHat]

My view on the matter, in case anyone cares:

EQ2 by any other name would have me at hello.

[SurfD]

FUck, that PS event would have been SOOOO damn cool to be playing when it happened.  Wonder how many people freaked when the "bending" occured (assuming it actually DID occur like the video indicates, and they didnt just take the servers down and reboot them with different land layouts)

[NewGuy]

The ingame Planetside event was a bit less impressive than the video, but pretty cool anyway. Over last weekend eartquakes and meteor showers started to appear. They increased gradually in frequency until monday night. Then the servers were taken down, a patch applied and when the servers came up that video played at login and the world had changed.